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This week Joe and Matt are answering another listener question, this time concerning Paladins, and how they serve as an intersection between the divine Light, and the Titans who shaped Azeroth. As you might imagine, the answer will span the cosmos, and go completely off the rails in the process. Paladins in particular serve as a mash-up between some Light power and Titanic power -- does that mean a Titan of the Void could occur? There's a lot of ground to cover, some of which will take us into Midnight and what may happen as we start to make our way toward the final act of this trilogy.
But you can count on one thing: an Odyn mention means he gets called a jerk again. We don't make the rules.
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0:11
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round table free form discussion about lore in your favorite media. I'm your host Joe
0:16
Pres, one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch, and I've got my astounding co-host with me today, Matt
0:22
Rossy. How you doing today, Matt? I would rather be your Tales of Mystery co-host. Well, we got to work up to that, I
0:29
think. Strange Tales. Strange Tales. Joe show and Matt. You get to be like I get to do the Doctor Strange ones and you get to
0:36
do the Iron Man ones. You know, I'd be okay with that. I'd be okay with that. Yeah. Why should you get stuck with Iron Man? We'll get you Spider-Man or
0:42
something. No, no. I'm okay with Iron Man. Tony Tony Stark during that era of comics is not exactly uh, you know, bad. But we're
0:49
not here to talk about comics this time. We are overdue for a comic episode. And if there's something in particular you
0:55
would like us to cover, uh we would like to remind you that you can let us know. Uh as we're going to be answering
1:01
several questions today, it comes to the same place. Whether it's a topic suggestion, a question, or anything in
1:07
between, you can go ahead and send those into us at podcastbasizardwatch.com. We ask that you specify which of our
1:12
three shows it is for, as well as any special pronunciation of your name. Uh if you want to hit us up on Discord, we
1:18
have the Q and podcast questions channel open up for everybody. You can go ahead and do that. Same rules apply. If you
1:24
are a Patreon supporter, as a way of saying thank you for helping us keep the lights on, we have the Patreon Q and
1:30
podcast questions channel. We tend to look there first, you know, just as that little extra bonus. But we're going to
1:35
start, and this is a little bit of a not a lengthy one, but this is from our our friend Verdigree, one of our wonderful
1:41
Patreon supporters. Greetings, regarders of Rhyrost. With Midnight incoming, I recently saw
1:48
someone mystified about why a Paladin armor set had Titanic elements and
1:53
realized that the connection isn't universally known. That being said, do you foresee Hearthstone or original
2:00
Titan Amodus the Peacekeeper and Paladin card who specifically says, "Open your
2:05
minds to the lights could be incoming." Furthermore, what are your wildest speculations on the connection between
2:11
Titans and the light? One interesting thing I noticed is that though no longer
2:16
the case, divine star's original mechanic damage type was divine holy plus arcane or spell shadow shadow plus
2:25
arcane. While many Titan constructs led by tier did holy and radiant damage,
2:31
holy holy plus fire. Well, there's a lot here to unpack and uh usually when we
2:37
start talking about the Light and Titans, I kind of just have to shake Matt like a like a baby doll from the 80s and set him loose on the ground. So,
2:45
shake shake shake. What do you What do you think? I mean, we we've we know that the Titans
2:50
and the late have a relationship for various reasons. We know that for example Eloon despite not being a Titan
2:57
contributed one of the uh pillars of creation the uh the you know the tier of
3:03
Aloon and you know that that's we also know that you know Amanthul didn't like Aloon
3:10
yeah not very much at all and was kind of concerned with Aloon's relationship uh with ANR and that ANR
3:17
and Aloon had some kind of relationship which in and of itself is not specific
3:22
But we do know that it happened. Um, I'm trying to think of the name of the
3:28
the one from that that uh Ormar raid. The last one you do in before you go to
3:36
Orgramar. Oh, the not the siege of Ormar. Yeah, Sie Or. It is Siege of Ormar, but it's the part where you're not in Orgamar yet.
3:42
Yeah. When you start because you start in the veil. Yeah. And you get through to um I can
3:48
remember his name. Norishen, maybe. Yes. You you go up to Noren and then he confronts, you know, he sends you into
3:53
the former heart chamber where you confront the big sha of anger
3:59
regeneration thingy there. And he's using the light pretty consistently,
4:04
like he's tossing light around like nobody's business. Um, honestly, considering this, considering their
4:11
relationship with Aloon, considering the relationship Aloon seems to have with the Naru, uh, and the fact that a a a
4:18
night warrior working for Aloon could fight and kill an old god. Um, I think
4:24
the fairness is is that the light is it's a force of the cosmos. It's one of
4:31
the things that makes up existence. It's not surprising that some titans have a connection to it. I honestly don't know
4:38
that the connection is any different than the connection for any other being that has a connection with the light.
4:44
Like I don't know if the Titans just, you know, they just can touch the light and use it just like anybody else can
4:52
even though the Titans are macroscale entities. Um I I don't know, but I I it
4:57
is amazing to see so many Titan constructs that do touch upon the light in some fashion.
5:04
Yeah, there there there's a there's a a lot of element about that where like light is definitely involved and light
5:09
is definitely seen as a useful tool. Um, but one thing I always wondered in in Amitus was sort of like this weird I
5:17
don't want to say a what if uh but was kind of like an answer in an elseworlds
5:22
to a question that I've been asking since we learned about the Pantheon, which is if we know that the the void
5:29
wants to make a void titan. So we know that in in some aspect the powers or
5:36
element or or cosmic force of void can influence a being in a gestational
5:42
period that could potentially be born as an entity uh align very very much with
5:47
void in a a titanic scale. Why couldn't the same be true for light?
5:53
I honestly I have thought about this too. I don't want to interrupt your answer so I'm going to wait but I I do have an answer to it as well.
5:59
Yeah. Well, I mean, we're we're there's a lot of wiggle room here, but it was one of those things where it's like, what if the answer is it already
6:05
happened, right? What if the answer is there was a Titan that was aligned from
6:10
that sort of primordial elemental cosmic force that was very close to the light
6:16
that I don't want to say taught the other titans how to uh but maybe did
6:21
maybe taught them how to harness into the light as opposed to because all the titans seem to be able to touch upon
6:27
other elements besides their primary at least from what we've seen whether it's calling cleansing fire but also like you
6:34
know being an ability ility to call upon the light or whether it is you know I can make plants do stuff but I also can
6:41
touch things with arcane energy. Um there always seems to be sort of that element of it where they they have the
6:47
capacity to do more than what their primary programming is or their primary directive but they their strongest
6:53
aspect is always that primary function. And I always wondered like what if there was a light titan that had already
6:59
existed that Amanthul didn't like. And part of that I think is because in my
7:06
brain and this is why I thought Amitus was kind of neat. You mentioned the the
7:12
line that Amitus says where open your minds to the light. There's a lot of other voice lines that Amitus says that
7:19
are ominous in some capacity. So I mean
7:24
you have your your typical like I will not forsake you heroic moments the m like music stinger in the background but
7:30
there was another one that uh always kind of stuck out to me. One of the things Amitus says is be reborn in my
7:38
image and that can be taken one of two ways. Either hey I'm going to resurrect
7:44
you like the light does with a lot of beings. We've seen the light resurrect the the most unlikely of of folks over
7:52
the years. We've we've participated in quests that have uh you know in Northrren that this person was dead and
7:58
the light raised them up into the light. Um but could also be you're unpure and
8:04
I'm going to remake you in the same way that a certain Naru tried to do to Illan and there there might be a world in
8:12
which a Titan of Light existed and it was just as bad as a Titan of void because it saw everything and was like
8:18
no this isn't right. It needs to be my way. not whatever I was programmed to
8:24
do, but it has to be this and only this. So maybe there's a reason Alman Thul
8:30
doesn't like Aloon, because Aloon's too close to the light. And maybe it's because Amanthul doesn't really care for the light as an entity. I don't know. Uh
8:38
and I'm going to shut up and let Matt give uh his two cents cuz I want to hear what Matt came up with or has uh about
8:44
that. Let's let's look for a second at how the void interacts with those that call upon it versus how the light
8:49
interacts with those that call upon it because we've seen a lot of people get pretty fanatical in both cases, right?
8:55
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But but with the void, it's always a kind of those that lose their way and
9:01
become fanatical in service of the void, even when they're not serving old gods or what have you, they tend to become
9:09
driven by it, by its constantly shifting perspective. um you know the thousand
9:14
truths the idea that you know that there's possibilities are everywhere you can you can choose and do what you what
9:21
you want to do whereas the light the light can impose or seem to impose it's
9:26
its way on people like what happened with Illan but think about and I always come back to him uh Czeliac
9:34
in Stratholm uh and in Knack uh 40 back in the day and I guess he's still there right yeah if you go to Knack right now
9:41
he's still there Um, Zeliac presented a perspective that I don't think people
9:46
really think about a lot in that the light is fully willing to be wielded by
9:52
someone who is not supporting its agenda in any way. Not because he's against it,
9:59
because he he was not in control of himself, but he could still call the light. The light would still come when
10:06
he called it. He was still capable of using it. And that to me has always
10:11
stuck out of my head. The void doesn't come if it's not getting something out of it. The void will not will not help
10:19
you to suppress the void. The light will if you're just really convinced.
10:25
The light will do it. The light will let you look look for a second at the things
10:30
the light did in the alternate version of Drraanor when the Magar fled.
10:37
Oh yeah. Once supposedly. Well, yeah. What happened after we were done dealing with the Horde essentially? Yeah. Yurel is supposedly using the
10:44
light to go around conquering the world in a way that on a dying planet is not
10:49
in any way, shape, or form conducive to the light's goals. What is the light achieving here? What is the light
10:55
getting? You're revealing the one true way is destruction and slavery. And it's
11:01
not that the light is opposed to slavery exactly. It's more it's not a moral thing. It's just not conducive. It's
11:08
like you're not going to you're going to end up with a dead planet and dead followers. Dead followers don't
11:13
help you. It's when when uh I want to say Zadal and I can't remember if that's
11:19
her name or not. Uh the one that was trying to change Illan when she was hitting him with the power of the light.
11:25
She said cuz as Anaru, she had made the decision to do this. At no point did she
11:31
say the light told her to do it. She just decided this was what to do. If the light wanted
11:38
Zara, by the way, to Zara, thank you. Uh if if Zera wanted to do this versus the light wanted to do
11:43
it, there's an issue there. If if the light didn't care one way or another,
11:48
would Zera making it do it? Cuz it seems that that's possible. It feels like the light is fully willing to be used by
11:57
beings that do not care about it or even actively presume to tell it what it
12:04
means, what it's saying. There's a whole lot of fanatic fanatics in WoW history. The Scarlet Crusade was using the light.
12:12
And we know the Scarlet Crusade was secretly led by a demon and had, you know, at its core was completely rotten.
12:20
But they still called upon the light and the light still answered them. And that's not necessarily exclusive to the
12:27
light. Um, in that I don't necessarily see there's there's plenty of examples of people like uh Guldon who forced the
12:35
void to do something alongside a force that the void doesn't normally work with, uh, specifically fell. And so it's
12:42
quite possible that you can override either with significant willpower. But the cost seems to be that for void
12:50
worshippers and void servants who decide to push against the void, the constant
12:56
battle is one of sanity, of keeping a a perspective rooted in what's currently
13:02
actually happening as opposed to all the things you see and all the the visions you get hit with. And that might be one
13:09
of the reasons that Villain has visions because the light is not known for visions. Like Velon can see multiple
13:16
alternate futures. That's not something the light normally does. Can he see multiple or does he just see
13:23
what like I I don't remember if he sees multiple or if he sees what the likely course of they're on
13:29
like the the linear path. Well, we see that whole bit where he's jumping through worlds and seeing different worlds. Um I don't know if
13:35
that means he's seeing alternate realities or not. That's a fair question. But he does still get all these visions. Is he just getting
13:42
visions of the most likely path? Um, if that's the case, then we know Andowin's
13:48
future. Um, I just it is wild to me to think about. It's quite possible the reason that we've never seen a a light
13:55
titan the way we saw a fell titan in that image is that a light titan could bend the light more effectively because
14:02
they're both extremely rigid. The light believes there's one true path. Uh,
14:07
titans believe in order. Be orderly. If there's one true path, great. That's orderly. That believing that you there's
14:15
only one path and you can predict it. It's how different is that from Amul's one true way. There's one true timeline.
14:21
There's one true timeway. And is is it possible that Amthul doesn't like the light? Not because it's it's dangerous
14:29
and overwhelming, but rather because it presents an alternative order. Yeah. It's not the one Aanthul is looking for.
14:36
That's kind of what I mean. Like it's it's it's it's not necessarily that it's dangerous, but it's a competitor, right?
14:42
Yeah. Like you want to go do what that thing says, but I already know what we should do based on pure order. And how
14:49
does one determine this? I I I find myself wondering a lot about these kind of things. We're often like we often
14:55
feel compelled to look at things from like polar opposites like light versus void, fell versus
15:00
arcane. But I mean there's other forces and each of those forces has a
15:06
relationship with all the other forces. So void and order might have just as
15:11
strong a rivalry, you know, because void is completely disordered. That's not what we want. We want order. Um so fell
15:19
of course, you know, fell its ability to break things down and destroy them very much opposed to arcane which is about,
15:25
you know, rigid creation. But at the same time, it's not like the light likes the fell. It it never has. It's always
15:31
been opposed to it. Zera was fighting demons. She was fighting Sargeras and the fell. That's an enemy to the light.
15:38
It's also an enemy to the void. And we've seen human beings and other beings
15:44
can control both forces. Uh Benedictus could call upon the light even while he
15:50
was serving a void entity. He was serving well technically he was serving Deathwing but you know you're serving
15:55
through Deathwing the old gods and the um and and he straight up could still
16:01
command the light. The light didn't rebel from him even though if the light h and this is
16:07
where I come back to the whole idea that that these things don't have minds per se but their forces but it's like
16:12
electricity although certainly a lot of people think electricity is is you know evil um and has actually a will of its
16:19
own. Can something have a will of its own but not actually have a mind to not actually think? It's quite possible that
16:26
the light just doesn't think and neither does the void. They just do what they do. If I turn on if I turn the light on
16:32
in my room, the light just covers everything. It doesn't like check with me if it can do anything. It just does
16:38
what it does. I don't know. I I I feel like a lot of the times we we kind of make shortcuts for these things because
16:44
it's it's a cosmic force. It is of course more complex than we're going to understand. And also because we're
16:51
playing from the perspective of people who are trying to just keep their existence going. Ultimately, when you look at World of Warcraft, whether
16:58
you're just looking at the from the scale of people fighting or on the scale of cosmic threats engaging the universe,
17:04
you want to keep going. You want to keep living. You don't want to let, you know, a a giant titan come in and rearrange
17:11
your world. and you don't want to just die because rats are in a basement or because some orcs are burning your
17:18
village or because you know you've put orcs in camps, the orcs don't want to be in the camps. There's always a conflict
17:25
and that conflict doesn't erase the other possible conflicts. I I really do
17:30
think that this is when you say that Amandul doesn't like the light or doesn't like Anarch because she she
17:35
likes the light. He might just not like the way Aloon goes about it cuz Aloon is
17:41
not orderly. And and we've seen and we've seen that Amanthul even like outside of the
17:46
discussion of the light. Anything that opposes his direct view of what should
17:52
happen is anthemma. It's outcast. It's made to be removed essentially.
17:58
Look what he did to Nos Dormu. Yeah. He empowered Nosormu and in so doing he
18:04
gave Nosormu the full awareness that he would die after he went mad and betrayed
18:10
everything he believed. Yeah. Yeah. Like like with no regard, right? There was there was no regard
18:16
because it was just like, well, you're just going to be useful to me now. like we and and this kind of ties back to
18:22
part of the other question which we can we'll get into after we're done with the whole light discussion. Um but yeah,
18:29
it's it it is a very interesting concept and part of the question which is will
18:34
Emitus, you know, pop up or do we see uh that particular character coming back in
18:40
the future? Maybe. Right. And the the the thing is we've seen other things that were introduced in Hearthstone as a
18:47
joke make it into the main game because it was Yeah. Like a lot of the characters are in now. Yeah. Like a lot of the characters that
18:53
started as Hearthstone only are now actual NPCs that have, you know, in some
18:58
cases implications in the story and in some cases have implication on gameplay. Um they have shown that they're not
19:06
above expanding what the Titans and surrounding the Titans are. And as a
19:12
matter of fact, the story of the Titans has been a constant evolution from a a
19:18
early storytelling standpoint to where we are now. And we've talked about this before on the show, but I do think it it bears uh repeating just sort of as a a
19:26
brief history lesson. Uh, when World of Warcraft first was brought onto the
19:32
scene as an RTS, there was a little bit of a backstory between the orcs and the humans with the humans essentially
19:39
having their their their cleric or priest units, their healers. Um, but then they did worship essentially
19:45
ostensibly a almost Catholicistic uh system of belief in the that would
19:51
eventually later become the light. Um, demons were very much uh a a uh you know
19:58
that sort of Roman Catholic belief of what demons are. And then as we moved,
20:04
it evolved. The Titans existed in like around Warcraft 2ish as a like seed of
20:12
an idea. Uh ancient beings essentially that that influenced the world but not
20:18
fully fleshed. Warcraft 3 is when we started to get a little more information about that uh and where we started to
20:26
actually get that solidified where it was no longer uh you know this Catholic belief system. It was absolutely just
20:32
the light and the void and those were the at the time the two major cosmic
20:37
forces that were at play with everything else sort of operating underneath it. Then comes World of Warcraft where in
20:44
the time between Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft, now you have the pantheon that that exists
20:51
in a I I want I'll call it a rudimentary way because while they were uh
20:59
influential on the development of the world, if you go back and look at the original Warcraft manual, which I
21:05
currently have sitting in my desk drawer where I'm at right now, um any mention of the Titans was not as like a godly
21:13
force. Not really back then. They were world shapers, but their purposes and
21:19
their allegiances were not exactly fully fleshed out. As the game went on, that's
21:24
when these things started getting their their sort of the gaps filled in and we got to where we are now. They can expand
21:31
that as much as they want because at the core of the idea of what we know currently is world souls exist. They are
21:38
somehow born into the universe and take physical form. We know that they seem to be associated very closely with an
21:44
element or one of the other pillars of existence of the universe. And all of these forces touch what I I don't have
21:51
anything else to call besides the prime material that we exist in where we are where all these forces influence. There
21:58
could be an infinite number of titans if they so choose to. There could have existed an infinite number of titans.
22:05
Amanthul is often referred to as the first Titan, but was he actually the
22:11
first Titan or is he the last one standing before he decided to, you know, wake everyone up and put them under his
22:17
wing immediately? Like, we don't know what happened beforehand. And we do know that world
22:23
souls can be destroyed. We do know that other world souls have existed in the universe. Uh, and from what we know from
22:30
the Shadowlands and what we know from the Brokers and the Atherealss, the universe is infinitely expansive. We
22:36
only know a small portion of it. We know a handful of worlds, but there are doors to other plains of existence, other
22:43
planets. Uh we've learned that the old gods existed on other planets which means we uh we can speculate uh that
22:50
besides Argus and uh Caresh which is a world soul uh and other places that
22:56
other world souls did exist or do exist. So there is an infinite possibility for
23:02
them to keep adding on to this roster as they see fit. And with us getting to the
23:07
last Titan, and again, we've been speculating that this is going to be, you know, it could be about Azeroth, but
23:13
it could also be about any other thing that relates to the Titans. The Last Titan is such an ominous, open-ended
23:21
thing that it can be applied in many different ways and still be true. We have no clue what's in store for that,
23:28
which I think is absolutely fascinating. I don't know if Matt has anything else to add to that before we go to the the Paladin connection portion of this. I
23:36
also think we should point out um they made uh one of the Pantheon of Death as
23:42
one of those Titan cards in Hearthstone if I'm not if the Primus is one of them, right?
23:47
Yeah. So, we could right now we've we we have them listed as something else other
23:53
than titans, but that's partially just because of the way we know that they
23:59
were created by the first ones and because we know that they are effectively less of a being and more of
24:04
a of like a mantle that can be passed on. uh the mantle that gets passed on could be a Titan, just a Titan that is
24:12
being used by has been driven artificially because in much the same way that we know the void wants to
24:17
create a void Titan who would be very different than your average Titan. It's quite possible that the very idea
24:23
of Titanness is normally embodied in some way that it is not in Azeroth
24:29
and that like a world soul is like the the organic form of like what we saw with the mechanical forms of the uh
24:35
the the pantheon of death. It could be that or it could be like if you if you
24:41
leave them alone they turn into this but if you take them think I mean I'm going
24:46
to sound really bizarre here. I'm sorry but think about Pokemon for a second. If you don't ever use a stone an
24:53
evolutionary stone on titan on tit Pokemon that evolve that way they'll stay the same. They'll like Eevee will
24:59
stay Eevee if you don't do anything like Eevee won't spontaneously evolve. You have to make Eevee evolve. Other Pokemon
25:06
do spontaneously evolve and that's they don't have to be forced. Um like for
25:11
example Charmander uh will become Charizard eventually. Uh so it's
25:19
possible it's similar to Pokemon. You can go different paths with what you do. like Titan. The Titan is a Pokemon, but
25:27
you could take the Pokemon and essentially expose it to the, you know, realm of death and use that to guide its
25:35
evolution in a certain direction. And that could happen possibly with all the forces. There could be quote unquote
25:41
titans for every kind of force. Uh there could be life ones. There could be um
25:47
you know death ones like that we've seen. Maybe those are are titans. There could be shadow/void ones. Maybe there's
25:53
straight up arcane ones. Uh maybe the titans we have on this world are different because they are exposed to
25:59
everything. Mhm. Uh there's, you know, we don't know. But it's interesting to think about the concept of, you know, what if there are
26:06
titans or beings like titans in every reality. We know there are zeriths in
26:11
every reality or at least there seem to be. There's a zerith oris. Mhm. Um what's going on there? Why is that?
26:19
You'll notice that for all his desire to talk about it, to not talk about it, Odin holds it in reverence. Why does
26:26
Odin hold it in reverence? We know nothing about it. Odin won't talk about it. He doesn't want anyone to go there
26:31
because it would threaten our view of the Titan's role in our existence. Yeah. Which makes me wonder if that's
26:37
the place where the plan for the Titans being birthed was originated very much in the way that the Zerith Ordis Zerith
26:43
Mortise was for the Pantheon of Death. Because like imagine you basically have you've got the one concept where we're going to
26:50
put these these spirit beings, these massively powerful souls in the realm of death to serve as part of the
26:56
regeneration process for existence. They're going to guide the flow of, you know, husband it and send it to where it
27:03
needs to go. Um, these ones we're going to throw into the, again, as you said, that's the only really good word name
27:08
for it, prime material plane. uh and they can interact with all the different
27:13
essences as they exist in one place in order to shape them into something that is conducive to our our plan or
27:20
conducive to what we need. If the first ones are behind everything or at least behind the plan for
27:26
existence, they're going to need people on the receiving end to essentially coordinate all the shipments, for lack
27:33
of a better term. Like stuff is coming going and coming from realm to realm. It's all eventually going to this one
27:40
place to build it. For lack of a better word, it's like if you design a structure and you don't design a central
27:47
part of the structure that facilitates traveling to the other parts of the structure, the structure is useless.
27:53
Yeah, it's separate structures now. You've you've made multiple buildings instead of just the one you wanted. So, yeah,
27:59
there's a lot possible. There's a lot riding on. Yeah, I'm still I'm still waiting to hear about the Titan civil war that happened at some
28:06
point before we uh you know, all woke up. But we'll see. Um let's go ahead and talk about the
28:13
connection between the Titans and Paladins because like you said, it's verdigree, it's one of those things that
28:19
some people don't understand that that connection exists, especially if they
28:25
didn't play Dragonflight. Uh, the War Within is for a lot of players their
28:33
first experience or is their first returning experience after Hiatus. And
28:40
Midnight is going to be potentially in that same capacity. And with paladins and in this case the army of light being
28:46
so centrally positioned in the story, knowing the connection between the titans and the paladins uh is maybe a
28:54
little bit important and maybe you know we can talk about that a little bit uh
29:00
we can talk about that quickly or we can talk about as much as we want really cuz well it's our show. Um but it all stems
29:07
from their relationship at least originally with tier. The idea of of
29:13
paladins the silverhand is probably and I think the oldest
29:19
uh paladin order truly existing in Azeroth. Matt, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
29:24
Yeah. I mean, we don't know. The earthn don't seem to have had one. That's not that they didn't, you know, interact
29:30
with it, but they you don't hear about earthn pallets, but but the Vikru did under tier. The Vikru did under tier. And the
29:38
dwarves when they came up with theirs was surprisingly sympotico. It It's
29:43
interesting that it feels like the dwarves were just like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense." And just started showing up as paladin. Like they didn't they
29:50
didn't like, "No, we have a rival uh tradition." They're like, "No, we've never thought about it, but yeah, okay." And then they started being paladin. Um
29:57
it kind of makes me wonder about the thing we found out with Magny and Magny's relationship with Azeroth. uh is
30:03
that they they didn't have their own paladins because they had those guys and those guys essentially did the same
30:08
thing. Yeah. Let's and when we say that those guys, we do mean like the Diamond Speakers because apparently let's let's
30:15
walk that one back a little bit and and we'll we'll talk about the Diamond Speakers, then we'll go back to to Tier and and the founding of Tier's Garden.
30:23
Um but the Diamond Speakers were entities infused with sort of the
30:28
essence of Azeroth. Uh they were bright spots of the Earth that essentially
30:34
spoke uh for Azeroth to the Earth as a direct interface. Um something that the
30:40
rest of the Titans didn't really seem to like. Um, but they operated very much like paladins in that regard as
30:47
guardians of sort of Azeroth's being, but also stewards of the relationship
30:52
between the Titan and the people uh that essentially were closest to her, which I
30:58
think is interesting that we found out uh during the war within that the earthn were the those creations, those things
31:05
closest to her. um they were once once
31:10
everything was done to essentially curb their free will and curb the free will of the earth and the diamond speakers
31:16
were essentially gone. And so the book that Magny used and the ritual that
31:23
Magny recited transformed him into one by essence of putting him into direct
31:31
contact with Azeroth and Azeroth's essence which had not been done. we have
31:36
found out for millennia at this point. Um, so Magny essentially became instead
31:43
of a warrior that he was a paladin of Azeroth in a lot of ways and a lot of
31:49
the things he did showcase that during the his time as the speaker Magny. He
31:55
had access to very similar paladinic powers when he so called upon them. And
32:02
you can go back and look at the books and comics and uh everything else that came in between and you can see
32:08
what he does in Legion. Really? Yeah, he does it he does it in Legion. Yeah. Um, it's actually interesting, too, because it feels like with those
32:16
guys gone, with the diamond uh speakers essentially like gone from from earn
32:21
dwarfven culture and the dwarves um basically the ones we have on Azeroth
32:27
came down with uh the Vool who would become humans and with Tier, Arcadus,
32:34
and Ironia. Those are the ones who were leading them. They were essentially um
32:39
earthen from Northrand, not like the ones we see uh on the aisle with of
32:45
Dornagal. Uh and they from the halls of stone or from the halls of lightning in that region. They're from the halls of lightning.
32:50
Halls of stone that they were direct servants of tier. They were they were like not even servants. Servants implies
32:56
that he like they were his you know how. Yeah. They were like yeah tier tier knows the way. We'll follow tier. And so
33:03
it's not surprising that a paladin order founded by people who were remembering tier would have resonance with them.
33:10
Like they sealed themselves up in in Aldon for a while and didn't get out
33:15
until the escape of the the trogs broke the area and they left. Um and so the
33:22
trogs that ended up you know of ultimately in gadgets were originally in and still are in Aldon. You see them
33:28
there. Uh when you go into Aldon they're all over the place. They are quite quite annoyingly there. But the the dwarves
33:36
aren't there any the dwarves left and when they left they built first uh what
33:42
is now Iron Forge and then you know eventually they spread out and built other areas like the the dark iron went
33:48
to Black Rockck Mountain. the uh the wild hammers went to um Grim Batal and
33:55
in their spreading out they brought dwarven ideas which were earthen ideas
34:01
ultimately they're you know culturally descended from them. Yeah. They learned they learned what it was to like they knew how to live in
34:07
union with the earth in a way that like the earth knew how to do. It was
34:12
essentially a genetic memory. Right. Yeah. Mhm. And and while they were certainly much more curse of flesh like
34:20
than the earth and are they weren't actually made of stone, they could still reach back and turn to stone. Like stone
34:26
form still exists. It's stone form isn't just a game mechanic. It exists in dwarves. They can do that. They can
34:33
reach back and become stone. When Magny turned himself into diamond, he did so
34:38
by essentially supercharging that dwarven ability to reach back and become
34:43
more like an earthen. He he basically went all the way past it and into diamond warrior territory
34:49
which and and now that his story is at an end, he is essentially given that power
34:55
back to the new earthn that are born which I believe new earthn can be paladins.
35:00
Yes. Absolutely. And that's part of the reason why. And it's interesting that they can be paladins but they're it's in a way as
35:07
you pointed out it's sort of like paladins of Azeroth. Yeah. And that implies that our modern
35:13
paladins are paladins of Azeroth potentially. Like there it doesn't feel like there's
35:20
a god or a titan involved in paladin orders. Tier is not a titan.
35:27
No, he's not. Titan forged. A titan forged that or a titan watcher that was able to wield the light.
35:33
Yes. and wield it to the point where he could sacrifice his own hand fighting uh
35:40
big ugly evil dragon monster guy whose name was completely. Thank you, Gacron.
35:45
My god, man. Um but when Gacocrron is you know doing his various stuff that
35:50
which was obviously now that we've read more um powered by um Yagsaron to a
35:57
degree uh he sacrificed his hand and that sacrifice if anything only
36:02
strengthened his connection to the light. Mhm. And when he had strengthened his
36:09
connection to the light in that way, not only were the dragon flates empowered the first time, uh, but tier started
36:18
realizing, "Oh, wait a minute. We've got a problem. Why Why was Gacron not turned
36:24
into a super dragon the way I was trying to turn him?" Because that was where he was going. He was trying to make like
36:29
the aspects but one dragon. And it's really funny that tying all of this
36:35
stuff together, um, Ntharian and Nefarian were both trying to do the same thing ultimately. They were trying to
36:43
make a super dragon, uh, that would be a servant to the void in much the same way
36:49
that when Tier's experiments with Gacron went wrong, it created this horrible
36:55
monster that was a super dragon that consumed other dragons and raised them as kind of like void zombies. And all of
37:01
this, like you're saying, okay, what does this have to do with the light? The the light and paladins in in a specific
37:08
way seem to be really well suited to fighting this like and have been this
37:14
whole time. We've we've seen multiple examples. The fact that the Silverhand is the oldest extent paladin order on
37:21
Azeroth is because they had access to a guy who actually bothered to write down
37:26
what they were doing. Um, the problem with like a lot of other orders is they don't have continuity. Like warlocks are
37:33
almost all individuals, you know what I mean? Like there's there's no when when you try to have a council of warlocks,
37:39
they end up turning on each other almost immediately, even the non-evil one. It's just it's not it's not a word it's not a
37:46
thing that make that you know leads to let's come together, let's be united. But I think the fact that dwarves were
37:52
the first group to take up the silver hand implies that it's a very much a
37:57
communal thing. Like you said before, the dwarves know how to live in the earth. They know how to live together in the earth. They are communal by nature.
38:05
They actually befriended humans. They weren't conquered. They weren't forced
38:10
into anything. They picked each other. They're like, "You're our friends." And that might be because both of them are
38:17
Titan forged peoples which implies that the light because the light is what it is. It's very suited to Titan forged
38:25
individuals. Like even if it doesn't have the same goals, it's it's like going to the house of somebody who has a
38:32
different religion than you, but they h they live their life the same way you do. Yeah. Different different names, same
38:39
rituals, so to speak, right? like it's um and I think maybe we we go a little
38:44
bit further into Tier and his connection with uh the modernday Paladins and and
38:49
how that all came about. I think and you know what, while you're doing that, um I also think it's interesting that Tier and Noren seem to have very
38:56
similar goals. I would agree. Um and and and let's walk it back and just talk about Tier. He was
39:03
a uh a Titan watcher. He was somebody who we we're not going to talk about the dragon aspects too much because we've
39:08
already covered that in a previous episode. You can go back and and listen to it should you so choose. You should.
39:15
Um but let's start with Loan's rebellion and the the fleeing of Northrren. So
39:20
Loen was a another keeper a titanic keeper uh who fell to corruption of
39:26
Yageron essentially. um uh many of the others around him were falling prey to
39:33
uh this corruption, this mindbending that was going on with Tier and Arcadus
39:38
being the only two who did not fall uh victim to Lo's schemes. Uh Tier had
39:44
always long suspected that something was sort of off with Lo, so he wasn't really caught by surprise because he knew it
39:51
was coming. But because Lo at this point had essentially positioned himself as
39:56
the replacement prime designate, Loin was in control of everything, including vast armies of uh Titan forged and the
40:05
facilities to produce more of them were now under his control. And he had dragons.
40:10
And he had dragons. Yeah. He had the proto drakes that were serving the Vool that served him.
40:16
Yep. Um, which and that's goes back to what we were talking about before about in terms of like Tier as a light figure,
40:23
one of Tier's best friends ended up cursed from all of this. Mhm. Um, and and it's just a lot of this was
40:31
based around the light. Like a lot of what kept Tier and his groups like look Arcadus is calling on the light too.
40:36
Yeah. We're we're let's we'll keep going real quick through this and and and bring it through because we I want to talk more about that. But uh Tier
40:43
essentially w up hatching a plan to escape Northrren with uh the discs of Norgan which are essentially uh the an
40:52
appropriate record of like high magic and the history of Azeroth uh up to this
40:57
point. Um in so much as creating false copies of it uh to keep them the real
41:03
ones safe uh and then fleeing with uh the I believe it was the winter winter
41:09
scorn Vikru. I can't remember if it was that was the Vikru unit, but a a unit of Vikru, uh a bunch of Ethan that were on
41:16
his side, uh Iron A, which is one of the Watchers as well, uh Arcadus and himself
41:25
fled south in order to save the discs. Uh they were pursued by uh I think the
41:32
the best name that that has ever existed because just the way that Matt loves to say it. Uh which is Zakajaz, a cthrai
41:41
monster. Uh Zakaz, there it is. Uh who eventually tier made
41:47
his last stand in what would become Tira's fall or Tears fall in the Vikru
41:52
language. uh he would basically become intombed there with uh Zach Jazz's
41:59
corpse, kind of an air quote corpse here. Um the rest of the followers uh
42:05
built a tomb and buried tier uh with his foe. Uh they created a shrined tier out
42:11
of his silver hand at top his tomb as a memorial to his sacrifice. Uh his
42:16
hammer, the proverbial silver hand, was stored in the tomb as well. And the
42:21
Vikru were so moved by Tier sacrifice that they settled the region uh and to
42:28
guard Tears grave forever, otherwise known as Tears Guard. Um Arcadus, Iron
42:33
would and the Earthn and Mechanomes would continue south uh setting settling in Aldon, which is where we first come
42:39
across and I'm going to air quote the discs uh because we come across a fake
42:45
copy of them. The Vikrol at this point then start there's sort of like the
42:50
curse of flesh, right? Um they start giving birth to smaller weaker vikru
42:57
essentially humans. Um and this happens both in the north and where they've settled in Tearsfall. They carry on the
43:04
tradition in Tearsfall of the the light bending order of the the practices of
43:10
truth and justice and protection and protecting those weaker to them that tier was all about. They have this as
43:16
their core belief system. Um, and Tyrusfall guardians essentially at this
43:21
point become not the mages uh, but the actual people of the region sort of
43:27
become uh, successors or a family lineage of paladins in Tier's name.
43:33
Vikrruil. Then in the north who uh instead of wanting to instead of killing
43:38
their children at the order of their king, some of them flee and bring their children down to this promised land of
43:45
myth and mystery, hearing of this land that tier had basically founded uh and
43:50
dropping off their human children here. They would eventually grow up in these traditions with the Vikru tales of tier
43:55
and other stories of their culture. Uh and it would keep essentially evolving uh from generation to generation. The
44:02
origin of the tale was eventually lost to your story uh essentially became I don't want to say offuscated uh but it
44:09
essentially became a much more simplified mythic tale that was used by the tears god or tears guard this first
44:17
and ancient order of human paladins uh that were guarding this tomb. And so
44:23
this is sort of like the birth as far as I am I am really concerned of true paladins in the game. Now, it's happened
44:31
elsewhere, but that tradition of those that followed here carries forward.
44:36
Whether it's with the dwarves that followed or the earthn that became the dwarves, whether it's the Vikru who followed who became the humans, or
44:43
whether it is those that were around it or followed in the sort of generational wake of it, these are paladins. And so
44:51
they are always tied to tier and tier's essence, which means paladins as a whole are
44:57
always tied to titanic and titanic order. It no matter what way you slice it. So
45:04
yeah, and it's also to be pointed out that there's modern paladins who draw them their date back to the first and
45:10
second war. That's the origin of that order of the silverhand, but they're inspired by the legends that we've
45:17
already just talked about. They weren't out of they weren't in a vacuum. There just wasn't a tradition that touched the
45:23
light in that specific way after the death of Lordane who was friends with
45:29
Ardor and who was essentially his people were the ones preserving the you know
45:36
Tier's legacy because they were the ones who were guarding the tomb of Tier. They were the ones that lived in Terrafall.
45:43
They were the one who built Terasgar and that legacy leads to modern paladins uh
45:50
in much the same way that various legacies of magic users of you know
45:56
effectively lead to modern wizards, modern mages and modern warlocks. It
46:01
doesn't mean that they people in the past called themselves that but but they were still basically that. uh especially
46:07
Lord and his they're even mentioned if you go and look back at the history of the formation of the first human empire
46:14
uh it's they they they Lord and his people are the the shield that that
46:21
secures the they secure an alliance and they're the shield that effectively protect the the entire army. They're the
46:29
they are by everything except word Paladin. So yeah, it is it goes back a
46:34
long way and there's no doubt that that Joe is right in that it is inherently linked to tier and it's inherently
46:40
linked to Jotin because everything you think of as the central trappings of
46:45
modern paladins is ultimately designed by Jotin. Jotin is the one who builds
46:51
Tier's new hand I made out of silver. Jotin is the one who essentially changes
46:56
Tier's hammer by putting the silver hand symbol on it, turning it into the silver hand. Jotin is the one who helped them
47:04
escape with the discs of Nanon. He specifically stayed back to fight Logan
47:10
and his Kathrai servants including Zaka Jazz. And if you've never seen Whenever I say Zach Jazz, I I sorry I
47:16
imagine the like tendrils. Yeah. Yeah. But it's the tendrils on its face doing jazz hands. I just to just and
47:22
just to to sort of like recap who Jotin is, Jotin is a Titanic Watcher that if
47:28
you've played uh through Northrun, if you've played through Wrath of the Lich King, there's this uh broken road called
47:36
the path of the Titans uh and particularly in Dragon Blade is where you can find a long trail of it that
47:44
leads uh you know through it through Dragon Blade into Crystal Song uh and
47:51
then all the way down to the uh waters of the the north the north rend waters of of ocean there and into it. You can
47:58
actually see pieces of it. Uh he walks along it. Um and there is
48:04
really nothing that you can do with him uh at the time Legion.
48:10
Not until Legion. Um but we do like you know he we do know what Matt said where he replaced the hand of Tier uh that
48:17
have been severed by Gacron. uh and he also added the symbol to the hammer of the silver hand. Uh Yoten is who stayed
48:25
behind uh and instead the he stayed behind to distract Logan and help mask his allies
48:31
escape. Uh he was captured and cursed, which is what Matt alluded to earlier. Uh to shatter the anvil he used to craft
48:39
here's hand and reshape his hammer and to attack any of allies any allies of tier. Uh but the curse would not let him
48:46
die. And then during Legion, uh, Yoten killed Galford who was carrying the, uh,
48:52
spark of tier, uh, Lenosa, I think it was, and the paladin champion during the
48:57
order hall stuffed them down or forced to attack Yoten in order to regain the spark from the watcher. And during the
49:04
fight, Yoten comes to his senses, unable to die in Fearing for Madness, uh, he gives you the spark, which allows you
49:11
essentially later on, not until dragon flight. It's part of the reason we're able to get to your back. Yep. And
49:17
Lagosa being by being a dragon, which if you didn't tell, Lagosa, blue dragon.
49:22
Um, because she's a dragon, it's interesting that she's basically working
49:28
for the Silver Hand the whole time. Like the from the moment you meet her, she's straight up working for them.
49:34
It ties back into that whole idea that you can't get away from this. Uh, Tier and Tier's legacy is inherently
49:42
connected to the Paladin orders of Azeroth. Both the dwarven and human orders come directly from tier and
49:49
tier's legacy. Um the other ones, the the elven and torren ones are not.
49:56
Although the torin one is pretty interesting on its own, as is really the the the blood elf one we're going to
50:01
we're going to hear more about in midnight. There's no way. Yeah, that's coming back up.
50:08
The interesting thing though too and that I think that's why this is sort of important to right now is because we are
50:13
moving into midnight. we are going to get a lot more about the blood elf uh paladins and how they view things
50:19
especially because of the relationship with Artor and his father and that uh
50:26
the the army of light and them coming to the aid of Silver Moon and the the Sunwell. Um but I think it's going to go
50:35
beyond that because really and and this is not spoilers. This is something that
50:40
we've we've known for a while now. It sort of challenges the idea of what a paladin is. And why that's important is
50:49
exactly what Matt was kind of getting to with all these different offshoots of paladinism. Uh whether you are a torren sun walker
50:57
or if you are a night elf paladin, please give me night elf paladins. Um,
51:04
no matter what your tradition is, you at your core tenants of belief
51:10
want generally the same thing. Your warriors protecting others essentially.
51:16
You're you're wielding power in a way that is a shield and ball work for those
51:22
around you, which is this. You go to war, you can fight, you will destroy if
51:27
you have to, but it is not your first choice. And all these traditions while they all
51:35
stem from the same thing is one of the like it is the core ideas that tier brought forth. Tier was a protector.
51:42
Tier wanted to protect everything Tier did with even the making of Gacron was
51:49
an attempt to help safeguard the world even more was attemp it was you know
51:55
sabotaged and made corrupted but that was the intention of it and then it led
52:01
to the dragon aspects which were created in the dragon flights to protect Azeroth. You see where I'm going with
52:08
this? Maybe you do. You know, it all stems from that. And some of
52:13
these factions have it in their head over the course of years. And we've seen this with the
52:20
Legacy of Tier as distilled down. And this is actually a theme from Dragonflight and Tears Guard and the
52:25
Silverhand with Legion and uh like a sub theme of the Legion order hall stuff cuz
52:30
I did do the Paladin stuff. Um, but there's this everybody thinks they're
52:36
the right tradition to some capacity and while they recognize each other, they
52:42
don't necessarily immediately accept each other. And that's not
52:48
But it does seem it does seem though it does seem that paladins have the easiest time ignoring
52:54
massive differences like um the Xandelar Paladins and human paladins can actually
53:02
seem to be like, "Okay, you know, we hate each other. That's fair, right? We hate each other." Yeah. Oh, yeah. I hate
53:07
you. I hate you, but but we really hate that more, right? Oh, yeah. We totally hate that more. Let's go kill that and
53:14
then we can discuss how much we're going to kill each other. I am okay with that. Uh, and it's it's one of the things I've always liked about paladins in WoW is
53:21
that you can have the blood elf paladins right there next to dwarves and humans and direi and they're like, "Yeah, sure.
53:29
We did we did something bad once. Whatever." We all agree we hate that, right? Yeah, we absolutely do. Okay,
53:34
let's go kill that. I like that about Paladins. I think it is something it's something as somebody who plays
53:39
primarily warriors I always wish we had was that kind of camaraderie. It's It's just really cool and wow.
53:45
Yeah. And I think we're going to start to see an evolution of that as the core
53:52
concept of what it means to be a paladin is challenged and discovered. I think they're all going to sort of discover
53:58
that together. And I think that learning about the roots cuz that's the other thing that hasn't really happened yet,
54:05
too. Like we just finished Dragon Flight. Dragon Flight really hadn't uh wound down too far before we were
54:12
immediately in the war within with an explosive and sort of break neck pace.
54:18
And then from that one and then from the war within we're going right into midnight which means all the
54:24
stuff that was learned cuz one of the things that I think was interesting at the end of the tier story line in Dragon
54:29
Flight is that the tears guard even said like maybe it's time for us to go out and and see the others that carry our
54:36
name forward, right? It was maybe we should go and check on everybody and
54:41
just kind of see where everybody's at because the TI's guard was made up of all walks of life. They didn't care what
54:48
race you were. Did you honor the ideals of tier? Did you want to protect the world? Great. Come on in. Um, so they're
54:58
a lot more inviting as far as that goes. are a lot more close to the core concept of it and having them sort of walk the
55:05
world and sort of interact with these folks like it would not be out of the realm of possibility that they go and
55:11
deal with the Xandelari and learn about their traditions uh and how they become paladins and what it means to them and
55:18
you know bring them in and learn more about it and teach them about hey this is where our paladin order started from
55:25
from this guy here. Um, I could see them going to the sun walkers and having that
55:32
same discussion. I can see them going to the dwarves and going to, you know,
55:38
literally any of the other factions and finally sitting down. Like, I could see
55:43
tensions between the army of light and the blood elf paladins uh, coming to a head uh, you know, at some point after
55:50
everything calms down, after our crescendo moment is done. And then one of these tears guards stepping forward
55:56
and telling everybody to shut up and you know you your paladins what are you doing like you've sworn to protect
56:02
you've sworn to wield your your light or your power in a way to protect others
56:08
start doing it I don't especially since yeah it's a good point that the arathy have their own pallet in
56:14
tradition I was going to say and going to the arathy and we know we're going to go there at some point like it's inevitable.
56:21
even if they don't actually go to them to that realm this the expansion they're going to be involved we're going to see
56:26
more of them. So yeah absolutely it it is absolutely like if the tears guard hear about the array and the array
56:32
tradition a thousand% somebody is going to go and visit them and like they're going to be hardressed
56:39
to tell a warrior of the light no you don't get to walk on our shores. Um,
56:45
like it's it's an interesting position to be in as far as the paladins are going into this expansion and I'm
56:52
actually fairly excited to see how that grows. So, when you see the paladin
56:57
armor that you're getting for your tier set and you see the Titanic Autramma upon it, there's a reason for it and
57:04
there's a very good reason for it. Uh, and it will probably come back in the
57:10
third act of this expansion trilogy to even further explain
57:15
a little bit about it because that's the other thing too, right? Tier's back. Tier is alive again. We brought him
57:23
back. Spoilers if he didn't finish Dragon Flight. Sorry, it's over an expansion. um he will likely be there
57:30
with us if I had to hazard a guess because if the Titans did something
57:35
that's messed up or needs to be dealt with, pretty sure he's going to have an opinion on that cuz Lord knows he's got
57:42
an opinion on the other ones. Also, if anybody's going to put Odin in his place
57:47
and uh snap him out of his megalomaniac funk, it's going to be Tier. They were battle brothers, right? They fought
57:54
Ragnarok. Fier is the one who was actually intended to be prime design. Um
58:01
he was the one who was going to be it and it's his own decision that that he didn't. Uh if anyone there were there
58:09
were three who were essentially equals. There was master Rah
58:15
who we we call Raen. There was Tier and there was Odin. And each of them had
58:21
their strengths, but everybody like Tier is naturally a leader. People just follow him because they, you know, he's
58:28
capable of conspiring. Well, it's like they say, the best leader is the one who doesn't want to lead. Yeah. And he was the one who led from
58:34
the front. And as a result, Odin was always a little jealous of him. And I it's really interesting how the three of
58:40
them embodied different aspects of Aanth that way. Amen was a good leader and people liked following him, but he was
58:45
also jealous. We see that with Amanar and Aloon and we see that with with his reaction to the light.
58:51
Yeah. And um also Ammonal like Roden was just fascinated with discovering things
58:59
and uncovering them and in a way that that's very Roden. The idea of like making elemental planes to hold uh the
59:06
enemies so they could then you know the elementals so they could be held away so they could fight the old gods directly.
59:12
That's an Amenthul idea. And as a result of that, I always think it's very interesting that the three of them, it's
59:18
almost like they had to be split apart. They had to be pushed into into antagonism so that there could be any
59:25
chance for Loen to do what he wanted to do. Uh in a really real way, Yagsaron and and Loen's their plan was doomed as
59:33
long as Tier was there because he would be like, "No, Odin, you
59:39
cannot just go off onto your own plane of existence. that we we're supposed to be here.
59:45
You know, it's it's it's a it's a fascinating idea. Yeah. Because of of all the ones, if Tier told Odin no, Odin would would
59:52
listen. Odin had no choice but to accept the dragon aspects, which he hated because
59:57
Tier was like, no, we're doing this. We're doing this protectors. Yeah. And he's like, I don't like it and
1:00:03
I'm going to still do my own thing, but I Okay, I trust you. Yeah. you're you and I fought together when my face got melted off by by
1:00:11
Ragnaros. You were at my side. You're the reason I didn't die. So, all right. Um I'm envious of you, but I will listen
1:00:18
to you. Um and it's it's weird. I'd love I don't think it'll happen. Um for one thing, I think Roden is just way too far
1:00:24
gone at this point, but I would love to see the three of them riding again at the end of this when there's the big
1:00:29
final whatever fight in in the you the final Titan Last Titan. I'd love to see the three of them together.
1:00:35
I think we're on we're we're potentially on pace for that. And I think that's one of the most fascinating things because when we go to
1:00:42
confront the Titans for whatever their their transgression is, which we still haven't uncovered yet, but we know we're
1:00:48
going to get there, that having them with us just feels right. Like having
1:00:55
Odin like get over his pride, these these puny mortals that we've proven to him are better than anything he's
1:01:01
constructed, right? Like we've we've bested it to the point where at one point he made you his Pokemon. There's a
1:01:08
reason he made you his Pokemon, right? He didn't suck out your your soul and shove it into a mechanical body.
1:01:14
If for no other reason than I was an exceptionally good Pokemon. That jerk really should have been nicer to me
1:01:19
because I'm the one that got him his gym badges. Yeah, but I mean, sorry, I have I have trauma.
1:01:25
But having Tier get those two out of their funks and saying, "Pick up your
1:01:30
hammer. Pick up your your sword. We're going. They need us and we swore to protect this planet. We going to go
1:01:37
protect this planet. Like having That's really weird. As you're talking about this, do you know what you're reminding me of?
1:01:43
What's that? Medivh. Yeah. Uh King Lane.
1:01:48
Mhm. And and good oldfashioned Ashandi wielder himself. Mhm.
1:01:53
You know, the three of them, the brothers that fought and then eventually got separated. It's like a cosmic like
1:02:00
it's like a mandelro set. Yeah. You know where you you fractal go up and fractal go down and there it is again.
1:02:06
And it's very similar to the relationship between Sargeras Agramar
1:02:12
and Amanthul. Yeah. Sargeras and Amanthul were like brothers. Like they were they were so
1:02:20
tight and then it all fell apart. and Agramar who was like the younger brother following them around stayed with with
1:02:27
Amthal but he was never the same. He was like I gotta go find him. I gotta go get him back. We're not we don't work like
1:02:33
this. So yeah, it's weird how you go up to the the max level and there they are. There they are again at the smaller but
1:02:40
still, you know, godlike level and then you come down to our level and there it is again. It just keeps happening.
1:02:45
And let's not even forget about uh the original of Kill Jaden, Archcomand and
1:02:50
Villain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the triumph. Yeah, the the the Dreni triumvirate there, which again again Archamond who you know
1:02:58
that that sort of uh that same Archamond villain and kill Jaden in their forms
1:03:04
before two of them fell to become Eridar or the the equivalent of of the fallen Arid
1:03:09
demonic ones. Yeah. Yeah. They embodied two of those aspects the same way that uh you know the others
1:03:15
did with Villain taking on the role of more of a tier role, right? like he was the natural leader, the one that didn't
1:03:20
want to lead. Uh, one, Kill Jaden, the deceiver, was actually really an arcane
1:03:25
genius who wanted to unravel the mysteries of the universe. Like, that was his thing. Uh,
1:03:32
his betrayal was almost less of a betrayal and more of a just I got to see where this goes, man. Yeah. And then you had Archamond who was
1:03:39
the warrior who was the brash one, very much like Odin was. like you you have these parallels, this these these
1:03:45
triplets of of of personality that were all cohesive units at one point. It is a
1:03:51
theme that repeats itself at multiple cosmic levels. And maybe that's just
1:03:56
storytelling accident that happened. Maybe it's coincidence or maybe that's a purpose. Maybe that's reverberations of
1:04:03
the cosmos of how it's supposed to be. Could be both. I mean, you could started accidentally, but now that you see that
1:04:08
they're all there, you can make use of them. Yeah. Uh, Blizzard, if you use that one, just make sure you credit us. Thanks.
1:04:14
Uh, but I think that's going to do it for us today, friends. I do want to remind you that Blizzard Watch is made
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1:05:51
Titanfilled Paladin adventure. We'll see you next week.