Up next in 10
Because we aren't all constantly filled with existential dread, Joe and Matt are answering some deep questions asked by some of our listeners. The first concerns the afterlife in Diablo, namely where we all go when we die. Heaven and Hell aren't really in keeping with our religious afterlife paradigm, after all. Then, they're asked about what the moon or sun is, really, in WoW. This one is a little less harrowing, since we see lots of things like magic derived from these celestial bodies, and some of them are characters in their own right. There are also other solar systems in other planes to worry about, and what all these celestial bodies working in concert might mean for the fabric of reality.
And now we have to go lie on the floor and think about why the sky is blue, what dogs dream about, and what makes us humans. It's fine.
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0:00
[Music]
0:11
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch round table free form discussion about lore in your favorite media. I am your host Joe
0:16
Pres, one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard watch and I've got my stalwart companion with me today, Matt Rossy. How you doing today Matt?
0:22
I am one of the other lore focused people from Blizzard Watch.
0:28
Well, friends, uh, today we're going to be answering questions from you, our wonderful listeners. And again, we
0:33
appreciate those questions when they come in. Uh, just to remind you, if you want to send those in, you can hit us up
0:39
at podcastbizzerwatch.com. Send us an email in the subject line. Tell us what show it's for. We do have
0:44
three of them at this point. Uh, and as well as any special pronunciation of your name inside the body of that email
0:49
message. If Discord is more your thing, we do have two channels set aside for it. We have the Q and podcast question
0:56
channel which is open up for everybody. You can go ahead and just do do the thing there. Same rules apply what show
1:01
it's for and the special pronunciation of your name. If you are a Patreon subscriber, you actually have access to
1:07
the patron Q and podcast questions channel. We tend to look there first as a way of saying thank you for helping us
1:12
keep the lights on. And uh as a matter of fact, some of these questions come directly from there. So without further
1:19
ado, let's get started with uh Mused Moose. Uh, who I'm glad that the the
1:24
moose is mused. I'm assuming it is amused. Uh, is there any known afterlife
1:30
in Sanctuary? Asking because the antagonist of the current season apparently went to the hells when he died and became a powerful demon. But I
1:37
don't get the impression that most people head to either the hells or the heavens when they die because we've been
1:42
both places and they're pretty light on people. So, was this something he had to do on purpose? Do we know what happens
1:48
to most denisens of sanctuary when they die? Um, I mean there's a lot of
1:53
complicated answers and I'm going to let Matt go cuz it's a Diablo question and I feel like whenever there's a Diablo question, I kind of just shake Matt and
1:59
let him go. So, shake, shake, shake. Unfortunately, he put Mentos in me this week. So, it's going to be horrible,
2:05
guys. Run away. Um, no. Uh, I I answered a similar question on the queue.
2:10
Basically, the default status for Sanctuary in terms of un of afterlife
2:17
seems to be tried to find the world stone. Mhm. Mhm. Uh because we see in Diablo II, Reaper
2:24
of Souls, the one that's all about death, that the souls of people from
2:30
Sanctuary, if not blocked, seem to go to Pandemonium to where the World Stone
2:36
used to be. Uh although it's questionable as as to whether or not that's where they all went, but that
2:43
seemed to be some one of the destinations you could go. Um, however,
2:48
we did see two things that kind of play around with that. One of them is that we
2:54
know that people can make packs with with both heaven and hell. And when they
2:59
make those packs between Diablo Immortal, Diablo II, and Diablo 4, we know this. When they make those packs,
3:05
their souls then end up going essentially to power either the heavens
3:10
or the hells. Um, but the thing is, the heavens almost never do this. There's like one the involving the sightless eye
3:18
and the the cult that was built around it. There's there's one group that kind of made a deal. Actually, I guess it's
3:25
two now because Diablo 4, you've got um Anarius making deals, but Inarius is lying. Like when Anarius says that the
3:32
the cathedral there are going to get to go to heaven with him. He's lying. They're not going with him. He does not
3:39
care about them. They are tools and he has no intention of of keeping his word. He also doesn't have the ability to make
3:45
good on that promise either because at the time we deal with him, he's not in good with heaven. No, but that the whole point is that he
3:51
made a promise that he knew he couldn't keep and still had no intention of keeping.
3:57
So it didn't bother him that he was lying through. Anarius not a good person. Um but that's, you know, that's
4:03
the that's the case for Anarius. But we do know that some human souls have been taken to the hells uh and become demons
4:12
because of deals they made. And that's the entire bedrock of the the dark
4:18
exile. The reason that the three, you know, great evils that uh Diablo,
4:24
I want to say Meisto, thank you brain, you actually said it. Meisto and Ball, the reason the three of them got exiled
4:29
to Sanctuary was their own idea. They they manipulated the four lesser evils
4:36
to to exile them because they wanted to get around the deal that heaven and hell had made that neither of them would
4:42
interfere with sanctuary because sanctuary was this entire like source of
4:48
soul power. They could get their hands on these souls. And remember, every
4:53
human on Sanctuary is descended from an angel and a demon. So when they die,
5:01
their souls are extremely powerful currency and the hells want them, but they have to make deals to get them.
5:07
They can't just go and kill a bunch of people and grab their souls and take it to hell. Those souls won't go there. Mhm.
5:12
Now, in Diablo I um specifically Vessel of Hatred, we also get a new
5:18
complication which is tied into something that Joe and I talked about for a while in that it seems like
5:23
Sanctuary is somehow got its own idea of what
5:29
should be there when you die that it it may have created before the destruction
5:35
of the world stone or it may have created it after. But we see hints and pieces about it
5:41
in the main game. We see it uh when you go to swamp place. Where's the name? I can't remember. Uh sorry. But you see it
5:50
with the witches and the tree and all that stuff. They've got their own thing. And they even say at one point, you
5:55
know, well, the swamp is in sanctuary. And the witches respond, is it? Is it really? And you get the sense like, wait
6:02
a minute, they know something. when you go to Diablo I uh and you and you head down to where you know Troven and uh
6:10
Carass were slash are because the cities are still kind of there. um you find out
6:16
about the spirit world that the whole that's the whole aspect of that thing about the spirit world and we find out
6:22
that there is a spirit world entity that is calling itself Akarat and Akarat was
6:29
a human who died but we don't know if the Acarat we meet is the same being and
6:35
they make a point of it they talk about how it doesn't know if it's the real Akarat soul having gone through a period
6:43
of regeneration ation in the spirit world or if it's the creation of all the people who believed in Akarat and what
6:50
they believed about him. Go ahead. That that's the that's the weird complication that we have with uh that
6:57
Diablo I is kind of thrown into the works, right? And uh we don't know. I'm
7:02
I'm trying to think of how to how to phrase this. So we know now that the
7:08
belief of whatever is next or at least human belief has the power to create in
7:16
sanctuary and it makes a certain amount of sense since they're def they're descendants of Nephilim essentially um
7:22
that they have a certain amount of power to shape the world around them. The
7:27
thing we don't know is or at least I question is if the soul stone was just
7:34
overriding that and that they always had the ability to sort of create their own
7:42
existences and for as long as sanctuary has been around and as long as the
7:47
Nephilim have existed and as long as humans have existed has there been different flavors of the afterlife? The
7:53
answer seems to be yes. And the answer seems I mean Yeah. Absolutely. I totally agree with you because I mean look at like uh
7:59
Tiana. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where they have all their different gods and those gods certainly seem to have
8:05
psionic have massive amounts of power and can affect the afterlife for their own people. Yeah. And and
8:12
the the interesting thing for me is everything you think can be possible is actually possible. It is it's an
8:19
infinite possibility as far as the afterlifees are concerned and we're just now sort of rediscovering or discovering
8:26
this and like what we've had with like this the I cannot remember the the
8:32
spirit callers uh and what they've taught us with that what we've learned from the swamps and the witches and what
8:39
we've learned from essentially our interactions with heaven and hell or the
8:45
hells is that it's infinitely possible to pretty much go anywhere. And going
8:51
back to the root of the question, heaven and hell is like Matt said, it's you go
8:57
there if you've made a deal or something alters you in such a way, right? Like
9:02
with the demons, we don't know if somebody is possessed of a demon. Uh let's say uh why can't I remember his
9:08
names? Uh the the the one uh Excadrum's son that was the uh in in Diablo I
9:15
Oh, right. Yeah, I know who exactly. Yeah. Um horrible thing. Gets the thing stuck in his forehead.
9:21
Yeah. And and we have to and we have to basically put him down. But like we don't know what happens to souls like
9:27
that, right? Is that soul consumed? Is that soul
9:32
uh you know completely irrevocably altered to become a demon against its will? not something or is that something
9:39
that happens because the soul of the person that is currently uh inside of the meat suit that the demon's riding
9:45
around in believes that that's what's going to happen and therefore that's is what happens and
9:51
yeah it's Noran by the way nor thank you so it's it's it's I don't
9:56
know that we're ever going to know a concrete answer because I don't know that there can be a concrete answer
10:02
right I think it's it's very murial like Diablo II has an exactly same situ
10:07
situation. But even worse, uh Leah, who we know is a good person who wanted to
10:12
help her uncle, uh because she was sired by Diablo in the body of her of her
10:19
mortal father, um Aiden became Diablo. Like Diablo took over her body. What
10:25
happened to Leah's soul? We do not know. We have never found out, you know. So
10:30
there's there's a like would would it make it doesn't seem cosmologically fair that Leah would go to to the hell hells
10:38
because she didn't ask to go there. She didn't make a deal. But like what else could have happened? Was she consumed?
10:44
Can they consume souls? Cuz we never heard that they can. Yeah. And I mean the other side of that too is like do we
10:50
know any beings that have made it to the heavens besides angels or redeemed
10:56
demons potentially? Look, we know that angels can fall. One Nephilim did it. And which Nephilim was it?
11:02
Us in Diablo II, but we weren't dead. We went to the heavens. No, we weren't dead, but we did go to the heavens. Can
11:09
we go to the heavens dead? That's another I don't know. I have no
11:14
idea. Yeah. And I'm I'm wondering how much of that has to do with the crystal arch being damaged, too, right? Like, was the
11:20
crystal arch something that kept humans out or kept the the human spirits out?
11:26
Was it did it convert them into angels potentially? Um I mean yeah, I was actually wondering
11:32
maybe it it maybe it kept them out or maybe it was actually like a giant um you know fly zapper their souls if it
11:39
went near them would just it would just take them and boom new angel stuff. We don't know. We know that they we know
11:45
that the souls were going to the pandemonium which again remember that pandemonium is the oldest place in
11:50
creation. Mhm. because it is the remains of the battlefield between uh Tathamett and the
11:57
crystal warrior Anu. Uh and the reason the world stone was there was because it was the it was his eye that was left on
12:03
the battlefield. The crystal arch is his spine. Yeah. Um so that's that's a possible
12:10
correlation between those two things. But we don't you know we don't we don't know. But we do know that the spirit
12:16
world is something. It's real. It's there. We can go to it. We can talk to
12:21
spirits there. Um, but what are those spirits? Like, are they former human
12:27
souls? Are they entities that are like embodiment of concepts and ideas? Do
12:32
humans make the spirit world? Just like the the world stone was suppressing Cuz
12:37
here's the other thing that you just kind of made me think of. The world stone was suppressing the Nephilim down into humans, right?
12:43
Yeah. I mean, it was at one point it was programmed to do that, right? We know that. was it doing with all the
12:49
nephilimness of them? Because all that power, you know, what was happening with it? Was it just suppressing it like
12:55
kryptonite, uh, you know, around a kryptonian or was it taking it and doing
13:01
something with it? Or was that energy being forced out into the world? Did that create the spirit world? Like I or
13:08
you know, is the spirit world the natural reaction to creating a world? Is it the only reason that this world
13:14
stayed stable? you know that there's so much we don't understand about any of this stuff. So there's like a lot of
13:20
potential afterlifees but we can't come up and say the you know how many of them
13:25
are concretely proved in the game. Well yeah the heavens and the hells are exist but are they after? The only reason
13:32
anybody goes to hell is if somebody get makes a deal and gets forced there. Yeah. And I think I think it's another
13:38
aspect of it too, right? Are the heaven and hells actually an afterlife? Because things live there and it's not
13:44
necessarily a place where things go and they die. It is just plains of existence
13:49
and before sanctuary existed, they existed, right? So like are are they
13:56
actually an afterlife or are they just another aspect of sear that overlaps
14:02
with with sanctuary? So maybe maybe that's the real truth of it. Maybe we
14:08
take the heavens and the hells out of the question of the afterlife and look more at everything else. And I think
14:15
maybe that's closer to the truth. Well, plus I mean, think about it this way. The weirdest thing about this whole thing is that the heavens are basically
14:22
grown around this this big chunk of Anu, right? The crystal arch, the the spine
14:28
of the diamond warrior. The hells are what happens when the rotten body of Tathamett crashes into a plane of
14:35
existence that forms around it. It's like like existence pockets it away
14:40
so it can't just be everywhere destroying everything. And all the demons there are like stuff growing out
14:46
of the corpse like like bits and pieces of Tathamett's essence form all these
14:53
things. And that's why the the primes uh the greater and lessers are so powerful
14:58
is because they're like literally the heads of Tathamett in in a reincarnated
15:04
form. And that's just weird to think about like in a way hell is the afterlife for demons.
15:10
But I mean is it really the afterlife for demons or is it just the the realm of demons? Right?
15:16
It's the afterlife for Tamett because it's literally where Tathamett went to
15:21
be essentially broken down. But it's at the same time it's only the afterlife in it that it is after their life. It's not
15:28
a place where the soul goes so much as the soul is like
15:34
Yeah. See that stuff right that and that's the part that I'm having trouble reconciling because even then
15:39
the heavens and the hells are just parts of a being essentially. Yeah. And right like that being
15:46
existing. Humans Yeah. And that means that humans and their souls are the only thing that
15:52
has both of those together anymore, right? Because the heavens are all just, you know, stuff from crystal warrior
15:58
honor. Well, now you got another path. But now you got me asking another question then.
16:03
So we know that Nephilim are the combination of like the the souls of of heaven and and the hells essentially. Uh
16:10
they they are little tiny versions of the perfect diamond warrior Anu essentially,
16:16
right? Um, well, actually, I'd say that the one before the Perfect Diamond Warrior, they're like the ones where he was on
16:22
United. We'll say we'll say Anu United. All right. Uh, I think that that's I think that's close enough.
16:27
Um, so they're the DBZ fusion. So they're they're the essentially these
16:32
these little tiny manifestations of of the unified perfect one of the unified
16:39
of the unified one, but with demons and angels essentially being able to be
16:45
redeemed and transferred between the two, can they also technically get to a state that is similar?
16:51
I mean, that's the thing to think about. We know that angels can fall and we know that demons can be redeemed.
16:56
We think we think, but we don't we've not seen it. We can't prove it, but it does make sense. If one can happen, the other
17:02
should be able to happen. Well, we have an inkling of it because of the the the mercenary stuff in D4
17:07
with the kid. Mhm. Right. Like we have we have an inkling of it. It hasn't been confirmed, but like a lot of the stuff you do with him
17:14
is sort of leading you down that path. Well, plus, I mean, this is something that's going to sound like we're really stepping off on a a ledge here, but one
17:22
of the things I started thinking about when Diablo I first came out story-wise, is that a lot of the things that that um
17:30
Rockis uh kept talking about, all this prophecies and so forth were given to him by a great serpent. And that great
17:37
serpent in my mind has to be Trigul. Oh, because that's who we saw in
17:42
that's who we saw in the novels. that's who we saw helping start the the whole uh necromancer order, which he was kind
17:50
of the grandpa of. Um, and it was always like it's neither of heaven or hell.
17:56
It's always outside balancing force. And that's what I think I keep feeling
18:02
like that ties into this cuz why is that where necromancy comes from? Why is
18:08
death the great balance? So, interesting enough, I'm going to let you talk. So, go ahead. So,
18:13
interestingly enough, you bring that up and what I'm immediately struck by is that Toul seems to be an ancient force
18:20
that like we've talked about is a balance between the two. But what is the other function of it? It's to keep
18:26
sanctuary free as much as it can from the influence of the high heavens and the burning hells. That sounds a whole
18:32
hell of a lot like the essentially manifestation of sanctuary. So necromancy kind of makes sense at least
18:39
a little bit here being in that regard because what is necromancy doing? It's
18:44
keeping things in sanctuary. And that is essentially keeping things out of
18:50
sanctuary by essentially raising an army. Things that can't be corrupted, things that can't be influenced by the
18:57
high heavens or the burning hells. An undead doesn't care if, as Modius wants
19:03
to make a deal with it, an undead doesn't necessarily have hate in its heart. Uh because it doesn't have a
19:08
heart to have hate in. Uh they may be aspects or manifestations that like have
19:14
a certain lean to them. They may be have a certain purpose, but almost never is
19:20
it something that we could see like Mephistan influencing, right? or or or
19:26
an undead isn't going to take a deal from Anarius. And in a way, it's almost like the
19:31
perfect extension of a Nephilim's power because it can't be affected by either
19:37
and becomes a perfect soldier to keep those influences at bay. So, well, and that kind of ties into the
19:43
fact that when we first hear of Traul, one of the things they say is that Traul entered the world at the moment of its
19:49
creation. Yeah. Like I I'm almost cons I'm almost considering that Traul is a manifestation of sanctuary.
19:55
I find myself wondering if Traul is sanctuary. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like like the
20:00
concept I know what you mean. Like like it's soul. Yeah, exactly. If if the world stone created a world
20:07
and none of the other worlds worked. They all came apart. The world stone may have been like, okay, uh I couldn't make
20:14
a soul before because I only had access to one or the other. Either it would be an angel using the stone or it would be
20:22
a demon using the stone. The only time it worked was when an angel and a demon together used the stone and created
20:29
sanctuary. Mhm. And that means does a soul like a like a
20:34
thing that can go to an afterlife, a thing that can die and yet continue through death, can those things only be
20:42
souls if they have both elements to them? You know what? And and I'm wondering if this ties into the other earlier thing
20:48
where the heavens and the hells are not afterles and maybe this feeds into it because they are outside plains and if
20:57
Traul is trying to keep the heavens and hells away from you know influencing
21:03
sanctuary and the denisonens therein afterles that are just extensions of
21:08
sanctuary which we seem to have some form of confirmation at least with the spirit realm that that's what that is.
21:15
It's a bubble that touches sanctuary that overlaps it in some capacity. We're able to travel through the spirit realm
21:21
from point A to point B, which means that there is at least some form of cosmic overlap there almost like the
21:28
Shadowlands in uh World of Warcraft. Um so that we know exists. We know that the
21:35
beings there um react poorly when angels or demons are brought into the spirit
21:42
realm. we've seen what happens there and what the influence on that can happen.
21:47
Uh and even then when we see the demonic influence on the spirit realm, it's almost sectioned off and it's the part
21:55
that touches sanctuary the most and then it feels like they've almost corrupted
22:01
it to the point where it act where it more it's dragged towards sanctuary. Yes. Like it's being brought in and this
22:07
coincides with why can I not remember the name of the swamp? And this is going to bother me. I'm sorry folks. When we
22:13
talk Yeah, I know. When we talk to the Howazar Yes. When we talk to the witches of
22:19
Howzar, we get the same sort of vibe. Yes, corruption can go there, but what are they doing? They're keep They're
22:25
trying to keep it at bay. They're trying to keep it out. They're trying to remove that influence. The whole storyline with
22:31
the gigantic serpent that we deal with, what is it teaching us the entire bloody time? Then we can talk to the head the
22:38
the tree of the uh the the headless mercenaries. Yeah, it's all the all the heads the
22:43
tree of Yeah, I want to say the tree of shadows, but I don't remember if that's what it's called. But like even that even that is its own
22:49
thing like that area around it is while it's attached to sanctuary,
22:55
it's not sanctuary, right? Like we have all of these little pocket dimensions.
23:01
And why haven't the demons attacked there? Why haven't the angels attacked there? They can't probably. So,
23:08
tree of whispers. Tree of whispers. Thank you. And it seems I'm looking stuff up.
23:13
Uh, but it seems like all of these things are intentionally built to
23:18
contain sanctuary and pieces of sanctuary. Even the idea of the afterlife, right? Go ahead.
23:24
Yeah. Um, when Traul first learned about Anarius and Lilith, he was going to go
23:30
after them directly. Yeah. He was going to go beat them up. and he was stopped by guardians of other
23:37
worlds. And we've always thought that meant other world stone creations. But what if heaven and hell have their own
23:45
souls, their own divided, fractured, but
23:50
you know, reality protecting beings who are like, you can't do that. You have to keep us in balance.
23:55
Yeah. And that's why couldn't do it because Tel was was told by the guardians of other worlds that he
24:01
couldn't direct the act. He risked causing a cataclysm. I was actually just going to bring that up. So, like it's the whole the whole
24:08
idea in the sin war, right? Where Traul tutored Mendelin or Mendel, excuse me.
24:13
Um cuz he believed that war on Sanctuary could devour all of existence if it was left unchecked. And then like you said,
24:19
learning between the pact between Anarius and Diablo, he wanted to intervene directly, but was stopped by
24:25
his fellow guardians that kept guard over worlds of their own. They warned
24:30
him that interference would risk all creation. Fortunately, somewhere those worlds were
24:35
or who those guardians were. Yeah. And it's possible that this whole
24:41
thing is kept like it's often times we talk about balance. We think of it like
24:46
a teeter totter. We think of it as like, you know, you've got a beam or something that moves up and down. But look at a
24:52
suspension bridge is all about balance. You you know, you just you just made me
24:58
remember something. Sanctuary is the only world created with the world soul that stuck.
25:03
Yeah. The only one that the that the world stone could create and kept going. That's why I said the whole thing about
25:08
the two working together thing. But it's not but it's not the only world that was created with the world stone.
25:14
No. Absolutely not. Absolutely it was not. And what if the the spirit realm, the the the all these other realms,
25:21
these afterlifees, these other pocket worlds or dimensions are sustained because sanctuary exists and they were
25:28
created and the the after pieces of those worlds. See, we talked about this
25:34
before and I actually am going to use the Joe of the past to to respond to you
25:40
because Joe in the past made the point, what if they're not even in existence? What if when sanctuary was created, it
25:48
pulled all the previous potentials into itself and the little the little fragments like a
25:54
tree reaching out like the roots, right? Like or like think about I'm I can't
25:59
believe I'm making this reference, but think about original secret wars story. Yeah. Where the beyonder created battle world
26:06
out of little pieces of every world in the cosmos. Mhm. Because the he couldn't just make a
26:12
world. What if the world stone reached out and grabbed all its previous creations and used them here? Like it it
26:20
could be that not not even necessarily a deliberate thing, but the existence of sanctuary provides a real sustainable
26:28
world that then essentially everything is attracted to it. It's like this thing is real and it's none of these other
26:34
things. Now all these other little bits and pieces of other realities that the world stone created cuz keep in mind
26:40
this is the last time the world stone was created. Yeah. And the world stone is is not existent anymore. Like it does but it
26:46
doesn't. It was made it made sanctuary. It made itself inside Sanctuary and then it was
26:54
destroyed and it could be recreating itself right now for all we know. But it was the last time anyone used it. So
27:01
well not necessarily use it. It was the last time somebody used it to create. It was the last time that, you know, the
27:08
last time that the world stone was used to to do anything aside from curse the Nephilim and that was very much a use by
27:15
one person. That was an Inarius use. Um, we can't we can't forget the angel of death trying to use it as well.
27:22
Yeah. But he never even got to it though. He was using chunks of it. And that's the the other weird part is that
27:28
the pieces of the world stone and still have power and can still create things. But anyway, what we're going around and
27:34
around on here is that we don't know if any of these things are afterles other than the only one that seems even
27:40
remotely a a candidate is the spirit world. Mhm. And the problem with the spirit world is
27:46
we don't know if it's where you go when you die or if it's where your life
27:52
changes things like where you you know if you decide, oh hey, I got burned really bad in this fire. Fire must hate
27:58
me and be evil. Then we get evil fire spirits. Whereas another guy's like, "Wow, this fire really helped me cook
28:05
this meat and I'm not going to die from starvation. I love you fire. There's a good fire spirit." And those two
28:10
spirits, they might interact, you know? And are they all just created by people
28:16
or are some things in there that influence people and then make those
28:21
people do things like the the spirit born are just one of many groups that
28:27
deal with the spirit world. And it's just it's what was it we were talking about how so much of the of the stuff
28:32
that we find in Diablo looks organic. Yeah. like we were talking about like like could could that be like is is
28:41
there an afterlife to sanctuary that is like a growth? I don't know. I I I don't we don't really know. We do know that
28:48
people get hijacked into heaven and hell or at least into hell. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that's an
28:54
afterlife for them. It just means that someone's stealing them into it so they can use them for themselves. And that's
29:01
what packs and so forth are. The reason demons are willing to give people power in life is that when they die, they get
29:07
it all back and then some. They get another piece of the army they want to build so they can finally destroy
29:13
heaven. So, it's not necessarily an afterlife so much as it is a prison.
29:19
Yeah. I there there's so much here. Uh, honestly, I still think honestly I still think
29:24
you're on to something with the concept of other the previous creations might be kind of interwoven into Sanctuary or
29:31
even just rem like remnants of into Sanctuary. Yeah. Like I can't shake it,
29:37
right? Like I can't shake how similar like just going off the spirit realm and
29:44
how similar the Denisens of the spirit realm are to us
29:50
as players in the game, right? Like it's it's it's not that they're just anim animalistic. It's not that just that
29:56
they're these big bundles of like weirdly shaped creations. They're very
30:01
human in or or Nephilim or or whatever in their emotions and how they interact.
30:07
It's why they can deal with the the Nephilim and the humans in general, right? Like they have that that there's
30:14
almost like a kinship there. I I don't know. I'm hoping we find out more as more stuff is released because I'd love
30:20
to see this sort of expanded upon, but this might be a tinfoil hat episode for
30:26
another future episode where we revisit this and go deep deep deep uh into wild
30:32
territory. But I think for now we're going to move on and try to get at least another question in here. Um this one
30:39
comes from Verdigree, who is a frequent flyer here. Uh, dear observers of oluded
30:44
obscura, what do you think the Warcraft universes stars and suns even are?
30:50
Druids, mages, priests, warlocks, erokoa, constellars, aloon, titans, nightfay, light, void, etc., etc. Many
30:58
beings appear to wield versions of stellar and solar energies, even their gravity. We have sarcarthth and
31:04
miscellaneous void people, uh, burning us in the light of dying stars and black
31:09
hole effects. Mage, Supernova, Starfires, Sunfires, Illan, and Riyolon
31:15
casting collapsing star. We have Astromancers all over the place. Nightborn, Shadow Moon, Blood Elves, and
31:20
a number of observatories. If the various forces of the cosmos manifest in planets to play Capture the Flag,
31:27
perhaps the same is true of yet grander celestial bodies. Uh, the Caldori might be their figurative children, but what
31:34
do we actually know of the stars themselves? Precious little, right? Uh,
31:40
I was going to just say nothing like the guy from UHF, but you know, we we know a little bit, right? And we
31:46
know our our our understanding of it, our worldview has sort of expanded, especially over the last few expansions
31:52
when it comes to the universe at large. Um, originally when Warcraft first spun into existence, uh, the blind eternities
31:59
essentially out there. Sorry, that's magic. Uh, the the, uh, twisting Nether was this vast expansive blackness
32:06
between stars. Um it it really wasn't a thought. We knew of two planets and that
32:13
was it. We knew of Drraanor or at the time Outland uh and then we knew of
32:18
Azeroth. We didn't know anything else existed, right? There was no talks of other planets that we could see inside
32:24
of our own solar system. Uh there was discussion of the moons of Azeroth, the
32:30
twin moons, but really that's about it. Uh then we learned about Caresh. Uh then
32:36
we learned about other planets that existed as we started moving our way through Legion and getting through
32:43
portals and different various places. We learned that traveling through space and time uh and dimensions was actually
32:50
possible without the dragons uh because you know the the Dreni had the option or
32:56
the Aridar essentially had the ability to do this before they were you know turned into an evil force of the Legion.
33:02
We don't know how many solar systems are out there in the universe. We don't know
33:07
how many stars that exist or what those stars even are. We can make the guess
33:13
that there are multiple solar systems out there because of what we saw in
33:18
Shadowlands when we were in the Sephor when we were in Zerith Mortise. We learned that the first ones were
33:24
experimenting. We don't know if they created everything in the cosmos. Um but
33:29
there's a a good chance that they manipulated it. And it would be folly to think that we were the only experiment,
33:36
right? We even know that there was a former night warrior in Ardan Weld from a different planet that had old god
33:42
problem that very clearly exists or exist dead, but we've never seen it. So
33:48
all of the stars we see could be celestial suns. They could be bodies,
33:54
heavenly bodies that refract light. They could be naru cores. They could be any
33:59
number of things in terms of the power that we wield based off of them. That is
34:04
a very good question. We know that gravity exists. We know that void exists. We know that light exists. But
34:09
when you're talking about star and summoning the moon and starfall and starlight, uh especially things like I
34:16
mean just looking at boomkin in general, they've never really explained where
34:21
that power of star comes from. And I don't think I've missed anything on that as far as the game goes. Matt, can you
34:28
think of anything that has ever explained that? I mean, we know that some things that they're called stars aren't. Like the
34:34
destroyer star that used to orbit um Dranra wasn't a star at all. It was a
34:41
chunk of an it was a basically a a corrupted Naru and it would affect people on the planet as it came closer
34:48
and and moved further away. But that wasn't it was a dead Naru or not dead,
34:54
you know, it was it was a Naru going into its dark cycle. It was one of the ones from the ships that the Naru were
35:00
originally using to escape. Uh during the the crash landing on Dranor, this one got ejected and it ended up, you
35:08
know, going into its dark cycle and thus it's it's an omen of illreute. It's not
35:14
a real star. There are other things like that on Azeroth. Um, I mean, not on Azeroth,
35:22
throughout the cosmos or other things like that. Just not just Azeroth. Um, there's also beings like the constellar.
35:28
The constellars seem to be made of stars. Mhm. Like you look at them, they look like
35:34
they're made of stars. And we know that the constellars aren't Titan. And they
35:40
weren't necessarily Titan creations. We we we we know sometimes that the
35:46
consular seem to not have been so much created by the Titans as they were
35:51
called by the Titans from somewhere. We don't know where they're called from. Do the do the the Titans reach out to the
35:57
stars and say, "Hey, send me a a constellar like you know where is that?
36:03
What is what is the deal with constellars?" We we don't know exactly. We don't know what their creation myth
36:09
is um or even their history. We we don't know much about them. We know that a
36:15
constellar, one of the constellars, um became a servant of Helya.
36:20
Mhm. Which would kind of imply that yes, they were summoned by the Titans because
36:25
Helia learned a lot of Titan summoning magic and used it to create her own
36:31
plane of existence. She used it to banish uh Odin's, you know, the hall of
36:36
the hall of valor. Like that was Helia using that kind of same reality creating
36:42
power. Um is it related to the stars? I don't know. Uh but we know that Titan
36:48
summoning power, it can reach into the great dark beyond. It can reach into the uh twisting nether which are not the
36:54
same thing, but they are kind of like cousins. Mhm. Um, the great dark beyond is now canonically the place between stars
37:01
where the twisting nether is now canonically the place between places, place between existence. Um,
37:09
it's in its own reality now. So, they've they've done a lot of stuff over the years that kind of they kind of tinker
37:14
with it in terms of the lore of the story of the setting. And I feel like that's given us a led us into a place
37:19
where we don't actually know specifically what like there's there's
37:24
multiple constellar there's there's like you know Ryolon who was called drawn to observe the events in the in the uh what
37:31
do you call it the separ the first ones um and then he got dominated by the jailer why was Ryolan called there who
37:39
called Ryolon there you know is it Ryolon or Rielon it doesn't matter
37:45
okay I I I don't remember how it's pronounced, but regardless, constellars seem to be like they they are not Titans
37:53
or Titan creations, but they are part and parcel of the universe. It's almost
37:58
like they're part of the first one's plan for the place cuz they keep
38:03
observing things. Why are they keep Why are they drawn to observe things? Why do they keep showing up to observe things?
38:10
Um why did a whole bunch of constellars show up during the Argus fight? You
38:15
know, like you the whole deal where Oh, yeah. There's a bunch of them. Yeah. Why are they there? Why do they
38:22
show up? Why do they, you know, decide to fight us? Like, um, hey, like, are they trying to stop something from
38:29
happening? Are they trying to stop us from killing Argus? Cuz titans aren't supposed to be killable. They don't want
38:34
us to send his essence into the Shadowlands. Are they a defense system for existence? Is that what stars are?
38:42
Are stars there to make existence possible in some for some reason? We don't know. But it does seem at least
38:49
feasible. We know that some stars are enormous cosmic forces like like our
38:56
star like the sun or other stars in our universe. There are some things in this cosmos that are enormous and planets
39:02
orbit them. But that's that's doesn't mean that those things aren't alive. You
39:08
know, we we have it could very well be that those things have gigantic souls living in them or that the constellars
39:16
are the life of stars. Like they might be. We don't know. But we know that that
39:21
whatever the constellars are, they're definitely tied into the stars with all the black holeing and sun star blasting
39:28
that they're doing. And they almost always seem to show up to observe
39:34
things, which I I think is kind of weird. I mean, didn't Agramar
39:40
sense that Sargeras killed the Constellar? Yes. Like, there was a world out there somewhere. I don't remember exactly
39:46
where, but the first time that Sargeras went to a world with the Legion, he killed the Constellar and Agramar sensed
39:55
it. Like, what the heck? Why would somebody kill a constell Didn't he even like go and he go to it
40:02
and go try to confront Sargeras? Yeah, he did. That's what he did. So, you know, we don't we don't know
40:09
enough to know for sure, but we do know that some stars seem to be much smaller
40:15
and not necessarily what we would think of in this world when we call talk call something a star, but other things
40:20
absolutely seem to be and it's entirely possible that the constellars live in or
40:26
come from stars because they're like star patterns in miniature. Yeah. Uh it's a very interesting
40:33
question that you ask here Verd. Uh one that I unfortunately anything we give
40:39
you beyond what we've already said is just going to be rampid speculation because there really isn't a whole lot to go on because they haven't really
40:46
talked about it. Yeah. They the only thing like the Calderai thing. Yeah. They're called the children of the stars, but you know in
40:53
what way? Yeah. And that's just because the you know we call them stars and they exist at night, right? Like um it's but there
41:00
are a lot of things that seem to call on the moon. Like one thing that that seems to spring to mind is Shadow Moon Valley,
41:06
right? Like even them like there's a lot of lunar body calling in their
41:11
shamanism. There's a lot of dealing with the stars and light and the movement of
41:17
night. Um, you like you you go through like the original like go back and and
41:25
do the dungeons from Warlords of Dranor when you do the Shadow Moon one when you go after uh Nirzul like that's the whole
41:33
theme. They're communing with the ancestors, but they're doing it within the stars. And they have this belief
41:38
that all the stars you see, and they don't know about the Shadowlands, are, you know, these pin pricks of of like
41:45
these are the light of the ancestors watching over them. Is that valid?
41:50
Probably not, but we don't know for sure. We can't really say that it's not. Um, they definitely seem to be able to
41:56
pull their ancestors back to talk with them. We deal with plenty of spirits there. Uh, and you know, is that mean
42:03
that they're pulled back from the Shadowlands or did they never go to the Shadowlands? Again, more questions we
42:08
don't know about there. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole deal with Aloon who herself uh seems to be a
42:14
psychop. Yeah. Like one of Aloon's things is to to gather souls and instead of taking to
42:20
the Shadowlands, although she does that, too. Sometimes she takes them and puts them up into the sky as as constellations. Again, you know, we keep
42:27
coming back to the like it's just a lot of the things we see about stars in the game. Joe, what Joe just said about, you
42:33
know, souls coming through the stars, what if every star is like an intrusion point for some other cosmic reality
42:40
coming forth into our universe? Like there's ones from the Shadowlands, there's ones from whatever the arcane
42:46
existence is. There's ones from the light, which is why the Sunwell, you know, makes even more sense with the
42:52
light infused into it. There could be a whole bunch of this stuff. It could be void stars again, black holes.
42:57
Yeah. And see the other interesting thing too is like going back to like some other things like Medivh, right? Like one of Medivh's specialties I think
43:03
was astronomy. Um and so he probably knows more about it than any other being
43:09
that has existed except for maybe Kaggar if he happened to read that book. But I do remember uh that at least in one of
43:16
the books and I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head. I apologize. Uh might have been Beyond the Dark Portal. Um, but it was the jeweled
43:23
scepter of Sargeras, which was a staff, the eye of Doeron, the seir, and the book of Medivh, the tome were combined
43:30
mar by Nerzul. And when they were combined in use with magical energies
43:36
and released during the the the big event, it was able to open up dimensional gateways to other worlds as
43:41
part of what, you know, the whole like shattering of of Outland was, right? So like Yeah. So like we know that whatever is
43:49
in that book of Medivh that tome that has the the power of a surrounding there is power there. The other interesting
43:55
thing we know is that there are actual um constellations, right? Uh and I
44:02
remember in Warlords of Draanor there was a sear and I can't remember the name of the sear now um but it talked about
44:09
this the stars shape our destinies. Uh they grant our they grant their blessings to the worthy and shun the
44:14
weak. Um, and the Shadow Moon orcs really believe in this stuff and they have different, you know, Matt already
44:21
said the destroyer star, which happened to be something completely different, but they also had Are you talking about Kazal?
44:26
Yes, Kazal. Thank you. Okay. Yeah, I was wondering that sounds like Kazal. Yeah, cuz he was uh the exile, right?
44:32
There's a whole quest around that. Um, which you know there's a whole bunch of stuff that were prior to Legion about
44:40
like the Blazing Star, the Chill Star, the Destroyer Star, the Favorite Star, uh, the like all these quests were
44:46
teaching you about their view of astrology and how these constellations and stars they believed granted them
44:54
power um, and how the alignments of the stars influence things. The other thing is like Matt pointed out, these could be
45:01
intrusion points of other cosmic entities entering the universe of that we exist
45:08
in with Azeroth. And we know that we use Zerith Mortise for example. Zerith
45:14
Mortise exists as an engine that essentially links directly to Azeroth,
45:20
right? What if there are other engines like that which Matt has speculated many many times and I think he's right about
45:27
that reach to other worlds and what if those are all of those energies
45:33
essentially being focused back in which is why those stars have power and
45:38
instead of you know the fact that you worship a star is what gives you the power or worshiping that particular uh
45:45
you know constellation it's literally you just tapping into that primal energy that is creating that fact, right? Like
45:52
one of the things that I think is interesting about Warcraft and true about humans in general is throughout history in the real world, we have
46:00
ascribed myth myth to what we don't understand yet, right? And I believe
46:06
Matt mentioned this a few episodes ago um and we talk about it often, the concept that any, you know, sufficiently
46:13
advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. It's the same thing with the power here, right? It could be something
46:20
that was set in motion eons ago. It could be something that the first one set in place. These could be powerpoints
46:27
that are filtering energy into the universe intentionally to keep it going.
46:32
Um, you know what you just made me think? Go for it. What if it's a circuit diagram? Yep. That's exactly where I was going,
46:39
man. I love it. I love it. Go for it. But just that whole idea that like if you if looking at the stars can teach
46:46
you, you know, it grants you power. What the power usually just means that you understand what's going to happen,
46:52
right? They're usually used to essentially read the future. And the thing is is that if the first
46:58
ones created the stars to be part of a system to create the universe and keep
47:04
it running, then by looking at the circuit diagram, you could understand, okay, the power is going to do this
47:11
because that's what it was made to do. And and what happens? Well, let's take it a step further. What happens every
47:18
single time the stars are pulled out of alignment or that something happens to
47:24
work against their natural flow and order catastrophe every single time and
47:31
it doesn't matter which would make sense because you've you know you're essentially not following the plan. You just broke this
47:38
the connection. The circuit isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing anymore. Of course it's a disaster. You just shut down half the system. Um it's like when
47:46
you know your your friend very helpfully monkeys around inside your computer and the next thing you know you have to call
47:51
tech support and they're like okay you didn't unplug it right? Oh well yeah actually we did. Oh like it it could be
47:57
that it could be the fact that you know it could be multiple things but it could be both of those things. It could be you
48:03
tapping into the power of the stars but it could also be which you understand by
48:09
reading them. And by reading them, you look at the way the pathway is supposed to go. This is how these this is how
48:16
everything is supposed to work if you can just figure it out. Mhm. Um so yeah, there's a lot of potential
48:22
for this, but we don't we don't really know. Um we do know that alignment of the stars can cause issues and that in
48:30
of itself suggests that the stars are supposed to align in very specific ways.
48:37
And when you prevent them from aligning in those ways, yeah, everything it's like throwing a wrench into into like a
48:43
jet engine, the thing is going to be a problem. And I like to take it a step further and and kind of like tap on that in in-game
48:50
mechanics that I think support that and and stay with me here. Let's look at at
48:56
balance druids, right? What's what was one of their key abilities? I don't know if it still is I haven't played in a
49:01
while, but I know that it was added back in Legion was wrath. No, celestial alignment. Um,
49:08
it it was a talent that um you it literally the flavor text on it was the
49:14
celestial bodies align maintaining both eclipses and granting you a benefit. In this case, uh 10% haste, but only for 15
49:22
seconds. And it was a 3minut cool down. It was a big cool down for a a big benefit. And it's sort of all of the
49:30
cooldowns, all of the abilities that are major cooldowns in a boomkin rotation in
49:36
game are limited effect. And what if that's the reason why canonically they
49:42
can kind of push things a little bit at a smaller scale, but only for a few
49:47
moments of time and only to get that extra juice for a little bit because if they do it for any longer, they throw
49:53
things out of whack. And I know that seems like a stretch to say that a single druid could possibly throw stars
50:00
out of alignment, but there's a lot of stars. There's a lot of of nodes in that
50:06
network out there. And we have done some very incredible things like kill unckillable beings and do some very
50:14
fantastical stuff that theoretically we shouldn't be able to do. So, a druid uh
50:19
in boomkin form probably could pull a star out of its natural path for a
50:25
couple seconds at least long enough to get what they want, right? If moving a star by a centimeter would
50:32
be like an unthinkable amount of power, but it's only a centimeter. You know what I mean? Like you could It's still
50:39
you're altering the alignment. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're pulling the star out of the sky and holding your hand. It's just but you did
50:46
move it and you moved it maybe a micron that's still moving it and then as soon as you're done it snaps
50:52
back to where it needs to be and continues on it it's ever it's you know ever marching forward journey
50:57
and to go back to what you said I also know I went and looked it up and it is still in the game as far as I can tell it was added in Legion it seems to
51:04
still be there doesn't say anything about removed okay yeah so I mean again this is just me speculating because I haven't played
51:09
it in a while but like again all of that seems to be fed through there and all that seems to make sense That also seems
51:15
to align with the stuff that we see in Shadow Moon Valley during Warlords of Drraanor. Uh this seems to align with
51:21
the stuff we know about Medivh and uh magic and the power of the cosmos. It
51:26
also seems to align with what we've learned from Zerith Mortise. like all of the stuff sort of feeds into it where
51:32
like maybe not a circuit board. Um but it is a very apt analogy. Uh but like a
51:39
power focusing web like if the cosmos was ordered very specifically and we
51:44
seem to believe it was that it's sort of like a focusing effect like a focusing
51:50
iris if you um and that's why the devourers are so dangerous because if
51:56
they snuff one of those lights out if they consume one of those nodes it
52:02
destabilizes the network. Now the network may be able to self-correct uh for a certain amount of time but if
52:09
any of you have ever worked in tech um there is this point where certain when
52:14
enough nodes or enough machines start to die in a network you start to get a
52:19
cascade failure where that failure then pushes to other pieces to uh you know of
52:27
the system that have to take up more work and then if another piece burns out more of that network has to take more of
52:33
that work and and also you also can end up where you can't reach other machines.
52:39
Yes. But like and and you just start burning the network out incre at increasingly faster speeds. Uh there was
52:46
a terrible movie uh that actually explained it very well. I think it was uh Travelers with uh it was Chris Pratt
52:54
and um uh Jennifer Lawrence where yeah they're on this an animation one. Yeah,
52:59
it wasn't animation. It was a live action where they're they're colonizing did animation was the premise of the show.
53:04
Yes. Yes. Yes. Where the the machines, the ship itself is starting to fail, but
53:10
they don't understand why robots are starting to fail, systems are starting to break, the ship is starting to come
53:15
apart, and they haven't reached their destination yet. But the explanation is this cascade failure. So that's why like
53:21
the devourers are so potentially dangerous cuz think about it. If they consume all of the Shadowlands realms,
53:28
what happens? Part of that system fails. Now you have things going to a black hole potentially. Then the universe
53:34
can't sustain itself and there's this cascade failure. Or if they Where is the animal even going if you've
53:39
lost the Shadowlands? Yep. Yeah. Or if they figure out a way to devour the void as an example without the void,
53:47
what happens to the light? What happens to the rest of the universe? If it consumes the light, what happens to
53:53
everything else? like you have these like all these questions that start to pop up around it when you start to think
54:00
of everything as this integrated system. Going back to Zerith Mortise, going back to Shadowlands, regardless of how you
54:06
felt about that expansion, that particular uh content update really sort of put everything into this perspective
54:13
of there is a very delicate balance to the universe and we mess with it a lot,
54:20
like a lot a lot. So maybe that's what the stars are. Maybe that is that is
54:26
what those things are. And and every time we see something like harnessing the power of gravity or collapsing star
54:32
or black hole effects, these are momentary things. They're not maintained
54:37
for any long period of time. And yes, they're very very deadly, right? Like collapsing star is a very deadly effect
54:45
in the Ryolon uh fight. if you don't deal with it, it kills everybody in the room, but then it dissipates because it
54:52
has to. Um, black hole effects, uh, going back to the astromancer fight, all
54:57
of the celestial bodies and things that we deal with there with the gravity, the power, the stars, the burning of the
55:03
light, all that stuff, all those effects are temporary because if they're constant, it throws off everything too
55:08
much. It's And even then, like we've seen like it destabilizes the astromancer when he does it too often.
55:15
like it there there's all these cool little bits and I'm going to shut up and see if there's anything Matt wants to add to this cuz
55:22
yeah I'm I'm spiraling a little bit. I think we're both kind of basically in the same place where we're thinking about this. The only thing I want to
55:28
mention is too is that another analogy we might want to consider in terms of the stars in in Warcraft is um what
55:36
neurons in a mind uh they can't we a human brain cannot regrow uh its neural
55:42
paths. uh if you destroy a bunch of neural neurons uh you can't your brain
55:48
can't just regrow them but it can reroute and sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't like if you have a
55:54
traumatic brain injury sometimes your brain will come up with ways around it and sometimes it won't. Um, and it can
56:02
like there can be things that affect the growth as well. And that's another thing
56:08
to consider in terms of what we're looking at is are stars like are we
56:14
getting like stars to try and fix a damaged system because it's very clear
56:20
that the entire system of creation seems to be offkilter. Uh, what was it they used to say in Shadowlands? The
56:25
machinery of death is broken. It feels like the machinery of everything is broken. and has been for a while. So,
56:32
that's something to consider as we move forward is are we going to see more stuff like that? Are we going to understand more? Are we going to go to a
56:39
star someday and find out that the star is like um not Bellameth Belelladar?
56:44
Yeah, Belelladar. Are it's like you go to a star, is it like Bell like Belelladar but way bigger? You know, we
56:50
don't know. We don't know if it's a big ball of plasma or if it is like this giant crystal thing that channels power
56:59
from one reality into another. Don't know. But there's a lot of stuff that we could get to see. I am curious to see
57:05
it. But right now, we don't actually know what the stars are. I really do think there's a bunch of constellars on some of them, though.
57:11
Oh, probably. Well, I think that's going to do it for today, friends. I do want to thank you for joining us on this
57:16
weird journey. Uh, we got through two whole questions today and I'm proud of us for doing that. Uh, Blizzard is made
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58:59
[Music]
59:07
Pumpkins.
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