Up next in 10
Two listener questions form bookends to an overarching concept this week on the Lore Watch Podcast. First, what is happening to Outland as it is now, 20 years after we visited? Is it still crumbling as it was, and what is becoming of the people and creatures still living there? Then, continuing on the theme, the next question asks, what if Azeroth's fate -- after burrowing Old Gods and Titan stabbing and 20 years of varied psychic abuse -- is already sealed, and our planet is doomed to crumble as well?
It's a very optimistic, cheerful episode of Lore Watch this week. We hope you enjoy it?
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0:00
[Music]
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round table free form discussion about lur in your favorite media. I'm your host Joe
0:16
Perez, one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch and I have got my stupendous Ultima wielding compatriate
0:25
Matt Rossy. How you doing Matt? What did you say I was wielding? Ultima. Oh, Ultima. Okay. I thought you
0:31
said some Ultima when I was like the robot from Marvel. I haven't even seen that thing in like
0:38
years. No, if you if you Final Fantasy has been on the brain, I I've after like digging
0:44
through like tons of cards and listen to our last Tavern Watch folks, uh I have
0:50
just had a ton of Final Fantasy on the brain. I just got done looking at uh ultimate weapon and I was just like, "Oh
0:55
yeah, Rossy, he's kind of like my ultimate weapon. We're going to go with that. A
1:02
h Well, friends, I don't I don't believe you. Well, too bad. I said it. It's recorded
1:07
for all posterity. You don't have a choice. All right. I do have a choice to not believe it,
1:13
man. You can't make me. Get in the comments. Let Matt know that he should believe us. Anyway, uh we're
1:19
going to be answering your questions, my wonderful friends and listeners out there. If you have questions for this or
1:26
any of our podcasts, be sure to send those in to podcastardwatch.com. Specify the show that it is for in the
1:33
subject line as well as any special pronunciation of your name. Uh you can also hit us up on Discord. We have two
1:39
channels set aside. We have the Q and podcast questions channel which is open for everyone. And we also have the
1:44
Patreon queue and podcast questions, which as the name would suggest is a way of us saying thank you uh to our Patreon
1:51
subscribers by giving them a place to put their stuff where we tend to look there first. And if you are so inclined, you can also send us messages on Patreon
1:58
directly uh and we will make sure that Liz gets them to us. Uh, also if you
2:03
want us to talk about Final Fantasy at some point, go ahead and ask questions about it cuz I have been doing nothing
2:09
but digging through old Final Fantasy lore and there are 16 games plus side
2:14
games at this point. Uh, and I have just been going absolutely nutty. So, if that's something you want us to talk about, let me know. More than happy to
2:21
do so, even if it's just an explanation of the story of Final Fantasy 14, cuz that's also really wild. Uh, but without
2:27
further ado, let's go ahead and get into our first question here. And uh this one comes from Vixalink. Uh and it is, is
2:35
Outlands slowly falling apart or has it stabilized? If it is still falling apart, or at least it is theoretically
2:42
still was, I assume the Alliance and Horde would pull back all their forces from there. But what would happen to the other races that still live in Outland?
2:49
The Netherwing was welcomed earlier to the Dragon Isles, but then again, they were technically from Azeroth to begin
2:54
with. The ogres from Augurla would probably be welcomed somewhere in Azeroth. But what about the drain other
3:00
Drraanor natives? Would the Sporlings and the Zanger March or the Eric Aricoka
3:06
Akoa, sorry. Wow, words are hard, folks. Uh, be allowed as refugees to Azeroth or
3:11
would they be refused? If yes, where would they stay? And then there's a bonus question here of where do etins
3:18
come from? I don't think I've seen any reference to their origin. Could they be to Vikru what trogs are to dwarves
3:24
perhaps? Uh, so do I think we know that like Outland is just always constantly
3:31
in threat of like drifting further apart, right? Like I'm pretty sure they've said that, but it's just like
3:36
really as recently as Battle for Azeroth, Thrall even made the point that the
3:43
place where he was farming is dying. Like the uh the the even places like
3:49
Negrand is dying. It's just dying slowly. um getting getting dragged into
3:55
the twisting nether has just prolonged Drraanor's death. Yeah, because you think about it like
4:00
Drraanor doesn't like in in a traditional world setup even if it doesn't have a world soul. We've learned
4:06
even on Drraanor cuz we've gone back with uh you know going back in time and to an alternate dimension. It's still a
4:13
system. The world itself is a system that sort of sustains itself in some manner or at least tries to sustain
4:19
itself in some manner, but it's basically a blasted apart shell, right? Like Outlands is is the remains of
4:26
whatever didn't get blasted to smithetheriness or launched into other various far-flung regions of the Twisty
4:33
Nether. Yeah, I mean either that or it got destroyed utterly. We don't really know. Um, we
4:39
know that for example, uh, Nethertorm is like chunks of what was, uh,
4:46
Farrealon, but we don't know where the rest of Farrelon is. Uh, we don't know if just
4:52
it was destroyed or if it's off in another place or what have you. U, yeah,
4:59
we really just don't know this this thing. the uh we we know that there's like I
5:06
said there's references to Danors like essentially being like slowly devoured
5:12
by you know the the pure chaos of the twisting nether. Mhm. And that's been a thing for quite a
5:19
while. Uh but we don't know like after the problem is that the last time it was
5:24
referenced that I remember was again in Battle for Azeroth. Um I haven't heard
5:30
it referenced since. So, it's kind of difficult to pinpoint where things are
5:36
right now. Uh, we know that as of that that expansion that Thraw made the point
5:42
that that, you know, Outland is still dying. When Sar Fang came to get him, he was thinking about that. So
5:50
yeah, I I I feel like it's safe to say that things are not looking good for
5:55
Outland and there's a continuous state of potential destruction, but at the
6:00
same time, the place is still there. Uh partially possibly sustained by the very
6:06
thing that's destroying it. Um because it's in the Nether and the Nether is not fully within um reality. Uh, we know for
6:15
a fact that one thing that happens when something goes into the twisting nether is it doesn't age.
6:22
I mean, even before he became light forged, uh, and I can't remember his
6:27
name, and I know that he's a Larry's husband, and his Terellion, thank you. Terion
6:32
didn't age like he was he was not getting older. I don't even know if the
6:38
being light forged is is the thing that kept him alive for a thousand years. It could just be the twisting nether. So
6:46
with that happening, essentially Outland is a chunk of Drraanor that is dead but
6:53
not dying or dying but not dead. I don't know how it's not undead exactly, but
7:01
it's kind of in this place where it can't progress further. It can't become
7:07
like you'll notice the water never runs out. Like you'd think the water would run out when it's constantly running off
7:12
the side of things and just falling forever into the twisting nether and yet it doesn't. Yeah. With no apparent origin, right?
7:19
Like that's too the world is kind of feels like it's in stasis. Uh but as to why that is, no
7:26
idea. Yeah. And I think there's some other interesting bits with that too. Like yeah, the world feels in stasis or at
7:32
least uh the best way I can put it too is like stasis is a kind of death at
7:38
least in terms of like what Thall would view it as. So it's not, you know, it's
7:44
not it's not at opposed with it, right? Because if life can't grow, then there's
7:50
no cycle, which means that everything stays stagnant, which means your your crops can't grow, your people can't
7:55
live. Uh it means wildlife isn't can't reproduce. So you can't really farm,
8:03
right? Your biological functions essentially just stop. Um so there is
8:08
Yeah. I think the only the amount that they do have is because the place is only it's in two worlds.
8:14
Yes. Like it's not fully in the twisting nether. It's partially in the Nether and partially in reality. Uh so that's why I
8:21
think you still have people you can still grow crops, but they're growing really crappy. you can still eat and
8:27
live, but you know, uh, great mother Gaia, you know, she's still alive, right? Yeah.
8:32
Yeah. Even though she you'd kind of expect her to be dead by now, um, she's still alive. Um, she stayed alive for
8:39
like, keep in mind that by the time we went to to Outland, it had been like
8:45
what, uh, at least 10 years. Oh, yeah. Easily. since the last time
8:50
anyone had been there and almost 20 something years since the first war of
8:56
the orcs invading. So in that time like they the ward had left Dranor then
9:04
returned to Dranor and you know the process of disintegration was already going on because of all the fell they
9:10
were using. So yeah I I definitely think there's a there's a story here in terms
9:16
of what's exactly happening. Yeah. And I think also too that there's another aspect that Matt kind of talked
9:22
about a little bit here that I I wanted to put up which is or or at least we talked about where we don't know what
9:28
happened to all the bits and pieces of Drraanor. And that in and of itself is also an interesting prospect. Uh because
9:36
one of the things that originally blew apart or what what originally blew apart Drraanor was the stress from opening up
9:42
so many portals, right? like when when Nirzul was just like, "Well, I'm just going to do this and you know, well,
9:49
let's just go and see what happens." And the world shook itself apart. And we
9:54
know from questing during Burning Crusade, uh, that a lot of those portals
10:01
were left intact, or at least a chunk of them were. Like there's there's an entire quest line where like you go and
10:07
and try to find out like what's happening with this one portal that is, you know, on a on a floating island. Go
10:13
ahead. Yeah, there's one a floating island in in a grand as I was just going to say. Yeah. Uh it's not too far from Ashagon, but
10:20
it's not it is at the same time it's fairly far from Ashun because you have to fly up to it. Yeah.
10:26
But but yeah, it's right there and there's others. Um, even mind like even
10:31
when even when Ion and his group went to Outland after it was turned into Outland
10:39
before uh during like the events of Warcraft 3, they they knew that the portals were
10:45
wide open. Uh that's how the the Legion could invade. And the fact that the portals had to be open for the Legion to
10:52
invade is another clue to the fact that the place is not fully within Twisting Nether. If if If Outland was fully in
11:00
the Nether, then there would be no need for portals for demons to go there. They would just go there. So, the fact that
11:07
they do need portals to get there. And one of the ways that Ion kept
11:13
uh I want to say Manoroth, but it's not Manoroth, Magtherodon. One of the ways Ian kept Magther Theodon from getting
11:20
reinforcements was to cut the portals. So, there's a the world is not fully
11:26
within the Nether. And I find myself wondering if the rest of Dranor in air quotes is is more in the Nether.
11:34
Yeah. And I mean that could be something that we can we can investigate later or or or we might investigate later. And
11:40
the reason I say that is because of some of the content that's coming up. It might become relevant. Uh like we know in the next patch we're
11:46
going to Caresh and Crush is a very a very much a world in flux. But the
11:51
interesting part isn't necessarily that, which in and of itself is interesting, but we're going to be using Tazesh as a
11:59
home base. And we know that Tazesh is a multi-dimensional city ship type thing
12:06
that the brokers have that can move between different realities and can in theory at least from what we've seen in
12:12
some of the quests we did for like Venari and some of the stuff that we did for some of the brokers or involving the
12:17
brokers can travel through the twisting nether right and if anybody is going to
12:23
be looking for ancient artifacts or lost forgotten pieces of like a world that
12:28
has essentially blown up. I would think that the brokers would be kind of on top of that. So, we may find out more about
12:35
the fate of some of those pieces uh and what happened with them and then we might have a more of an idea of what
12:42
life is like inside of the Twisting Nether or what it isn't like I guess
12:48
would be the best way to put it. So, we have this opportunity to discover more and I would be very very interested if
12:55
we do. Uh so the other part of your question was would they be able to like
13:02
would the folks that are still in Outlands uh would they be able to resettle on
13:08
Azeroth or would they be welcomed on Azeroth? And I think for the most part I
13:14
think they would. Uh we've seen some of that. I'm going to just say before I'm going to let you go, but for I'm going
13:20
to just say this. Able to and welcomed by are two huge gaps. Uh there are some that could you
13:28
know the ogres that currently live on Azeroth weren't exactly welcomed openly.
13:33
Sure. They they were invaders. Um so I I just want to make that point when you let Joe
13:40
mention what he's thinking and then I'll try and jump in with what I'm thinking. Yeah. And and you're not wrong. Like I I
13:45
think and and maybe open arms is the wrong word or term for it, but I think there is a a place where they could all
13:52
potentially come to Azeroth should they need to or want to. Like we know the ogres of Ogala are relatively docile. Um
14:00
they're not exactly the typical ogres that we saw uh that we were used to
14:05
dealing with with the horde uh the original horde that you know came through and decided to try to blow
14:11
things up. So there's a possibility that have with both factions having dealt
14:16
with them that they would be welcomed or they would be able to at least be allowed to come to Azeroth and settle
14:23
somewhere. And I think that has interesting implications as well because
14:29
the Augura are all about the harmony with the crystals and learning about that. Well, we just went through an
14:35
entire expansion first two chapters that have a lot to do with crystals and their
14:41
formation and how they the resonance of them and how important they are like and
14:46
how central they are to earn. Do you think there's a world in which the augural ogres and the could have a
14:54
conversation about like the nature of crystals in general and that it would potentially benefit both of them? Like
15:00
there could be something there. uh sporelaines. I mean, I don't know that they would
15:07
necessarily be openly welcomed, but we've already seen that similar creatures exist. Again, we they're not
15:15
exactly friendly, but we don't know how they would react to others of their same sort of like genome, right? Uh they're
15:21
pretty pretty adjacent to the the micro that we been dealing with this expansion. So, maybe there's something
15:27
there. uh the Irakcoa. Uh it's sort of a gray area. I guess we really I could see
15:34
them maybe coming here and settling in places that you know most folks wouldn't live like high on the mountain tops or
15:41
in these weird spots um where like yes there are factions that do live and
15:46
settle on those but from by and large a lot of those places are sort of barren uh and they seem to be preferred by the
15:53
Aroko which you know want to fly up and live in those areas. So there's a world in which maybe the folks from Drraanor
16:01
from Outland, not not Drayanor itself, but Outland, the current version of it, could potentially come back to Azeroth.
16:09
And the other thing that I want to point out too is Azeroth just got a whole lot bigger. And we've talked about this in
16:16
the past where like when the game originally released, we had two continents. Since then we have had
16:22
multiple other continents added, discovered, uh whole like nations you
16:27
know joining the map and even now where we are right like between the dragon
16:32
isles and now here and then even going back to like battle for Azeroth these
16:38
are places that didn't exist on the map they are now there we now know that they exist and we know that there are more
16:43
lands beyond that that exist we keep talking about the Arathi uh so the world
16:49
is infinitely large. And there's a possibility for any of these factions,
16:54
any of these societies to potentially find a home on Azeroth, either in a
17:00
place that is yet undiscovered or a place that exists and is uninhabited. And there's a possibility of it. And now
17:06
I'm going to let Matt give his two cent. Well, first off, I'm going to point out that we already just we just got done talking about those portals that ripped
17:13
uh Dranor apart. They were open long enough for people to use them. they may
17:18
have already done. Uh there's a debate about, in fact, you asked about the et
17:28
back in when World of Warcraft had a magazine, Bran Bronzebeard said that they looked he believed they were like
17:35
an ancestral form of ogre. Mhm. Um they're not. Uh we we've seen the
17:41
ogre, you know, lineage at this point, and they're not in it. They do however
17:47
look an awful lot like things that are in it. Um
17:52
does that mean you know are they parallel Titan influence? Uh because remember ogres and everything related to
18:00
them both going all the way to orcs are descended from a Titan creation like a
18:05
literal walking mountain. Um, so in a way they they would have another thing to talk to the earthn about because
18:11
ogres are essentially talking rocks and you know who else is talking rocks?
18:18
Earthn. Mhm. It's in the name. Um, so there's that
18:23
too. Um, but in terms of the Etin, I find myself thinking to like there's
18:28
lots of other groups that make I think of when I think of Etin. Uh there's the Drust and the I can't remember their
18:36
name, but we we met them in in Dragon Flight, the dragon killing guys, the the
18:41
ones who were basically giant jerks. Um I can't remember the names. I I could
18:47
look them up. Thank you. The Jordan, the Jordan at one point of Riel washed up uh on their
18:54
shores before it was probably before the big uh you know lead you know you know
19:01
big titan bubble that that turned the place off magically. But there's legends of the among the Jardan of a Reichel who
19:08
just showed up and became one of their great leaders. Um, which to me indicates
19:14
that there's a whole bunch of of Azeroth Azerothian giant beings that are
19:21
completely different and yet very similar to the ones from Dranor. Yeah. And that to me is really fascinating in
19:29
terms of what the Etn are like. If the Etn are part of this group of giant
19:35
people like ancestral to the to the freight and the Drust and the Jardan
19:41
much like the uh ogres on Drraanor are
19:47
descended from Ogran and Goran and you know Gro and what's the Magnaron? Those
19:54
are ones above GR even. Yeah. Yeah. Like they've had that whole group of like multipleheaded giant weirdos.
20:02
There's even one giant There was one giant Andreor so big that his body
20:07
became a city. Like his bones like you go to Frostfire Ridge, his bones are were like still there. People were
20:13
living in them. There's there's also there's also another very obvious one that it could
20:19
be as well for the Etans, which we didn't even talk about, which is just flat out the giants. So, WoW giants are
20:26
really cool uh in the fact that they tend to be very elemental leaning. Uh they tend to be very uh you know, how
20:36
how do I put this? They have a lot of similar origin to what you would expect most of the races of Azeroth as far as
20:42
like there are giants that are are very much about their elements. We've we've seen earth, molten, ice, stone, water
20:50
giants. Uh, and there's even a thing in game where Brand Bronzebeard thinks that the giants that are flesh may have also
20:57
been subject to the curse of flesh. And like we humans in WoW are sort of
21:03
descendant by Vichrule, there's also an entire possibility that the etins are descendant of giants in that in between
21:10
step. They're smaller. They tend to be a little bit smarter than most of the giants we encounter. Uh, which seems to
21:16
be the way that a lot of that stuff goes. uh go back to CMAT's comment about that
21:21
orcs are the the gnomes of Drraanor. Um there's a possibility that that's there.
21:27
And then one of my favorite things is actually not canonical anymore. Um but
21:33
Matt will remember this in the WoW RPG in the manual of monsters. Etans were
21:41
described there. They were two-headed giants who towered over normal humans that were necromancers first attempt at
21:49
creating abominations, but they proved according to this they were too dangerous and not intelligent
21:56
enough to be controlled for the Lich King soldiers. Uh, and so that they were
22:01
eliminated, but the ones that escaped uh seem to find community and make villages
22:08
uh and sort of like be their own thing. So like there's a possibility that ends
22:14
are just naturally occurring. There's also a possibility that they're magical constructs still. Even though again it's
22:19
non-cononical, but it would be really funny if it was. Or I mean for that matter you could have
22:25
multiple. I was going to say it could also be Titan experimentation. I was going to say that could be more than one group of giant two-headed
22:33
monster things and people just call every time they see something like that they're like it's an Eden. like you know
22:39
it's uh one of the things about the word etin is it's a cognate of the word joten
22:45
which is essentially giant anyway right for Norse yeah it's Norse it's a Norse word for giant and the the jotan one of the
22:54
things that's really cool about the jotan in mythology is that they're not they're not all giants like in terms of
23:01
size like Loki was a was full-blood Jotan uh Thor is half jotan Thor's
23:07
mother is is like an earth goddess who is of Jotin descent. Um there's like you
23:12
know what's her name? Scotty. You know she's Jotin. There's there's a quite a few Jotin. The the thing about the Jotin
23:18
is they're not just big. They're not just giants. It's that they have a
23:24
different philosophy and order to life. Um the Acier are very clearly a very
23:32
orderly group. I mean for drunks who feast and fight all you know forever and
23:38
and their greatest you know aspiration is to die well when the universe comes
23:43
to an end but still they they have a very rigorous approach to life. The the
23:51
Vanir um are kind of like nah we're we're
23:56
we're going to go with the flow but they're definitely not raw chaos whereas the Jotin absolutely are. there just
24:03
straight up. I might help you. I might, you know, make you drink half the ocean
24:08
or attempt to pick up the Midgard Serpent and you know, you don't even know you're doing it because of my
24:13
illusions. They're just so good. Um, and you'll notice his name, the the the the JOT doing that was named Utgard Loki,
24:20
and we there's an Utgard Keep on Azeroth and it's a Vichool place. Um, I think it
24:27
would be a very it would be interesting to me if we found out that there is a straightup progression between all those
24:34
giants. And we've met some of them like Hodair who was a Titan keeper.
24:39
Hoden was a was a Titan keeper like up there with Thor and and Lok
24:46
and and even uh Odin. And yet he was a giant.
24:52
Yeah. And not only was he a giant, a bunch of other giants are his direct descendants.
24:57
Yeah. Like go like the uh we talked about that when we get to Wintergraphasp, right? Like the those
25:03
are his children essentially, the four that that are set there to guard the archives. Yeah. And as a result of that, it's
25:09
interesting to think about the possibility that there's a whole line of descent from all these different groups
25:17
and they might even have intermingled. Well, and see, I like that because when you look at the et general, like the the
25:25
reason I like the the whole descended of giants thing is because when you look at the etens, it feels like they take on
25:33
sort of the aspects of where they settle just like an elemental being would, right? So, you have your your forest
25:39
etens your stone etc et your hill et
25:46
into um why can't I remember the name of the dungeon? Uh the the old dark iron
25:52
dwarf city. Oh um black rock depths. Yeah, there we go. Not black rock
25:57
depths. The uh the one where Alexstrazza was was uh imprisoned. Um wow. Well,
26:04
anyway, regardless, one of the bosses you fight in there. Grimatal. Thank you.
26:09
Uh, one of the bosses you fight in there is an etin that has control over elemental fire, right? The forge master.
26:16
And he's smart enough to know how to forge weapons. And like it it's interesting to me that they are capable
26:23
like dragons of adapting to whatever element they are near. So
26:30
were able to do that. Why couldn't they? Sorry. Go ahead. I just also want to make a point really fast that you can find etins in the Eastern Kingdoms.
26:38
You can find them uh in in uh on High Mountain uh in the Broken Isles.
26:45
Yeah. And you can find them in Coleras and Surar. They're also in Surar. Yeah. So Eten's a pretty wide
26:52
range like and that to me especially being on the Broken Isles that to me
26:58
implies that they have been on Azeroth for a lot longer than ogres. Mhm.
27:03
And the fact that they're in those regions that they're in to me makes it seem very likely. I mean if you're in
27:10
the Broken Isles, you are basically just a hop, skip, and a skip and a jump away from North. um to the point where the
27:15
storm peaks in in um uh Northrand and uh the what's the Storm Mountains or
27:22
whatever there is the the one in on the Broken Isles are very similar places and
27:28
the Vichool lord that comes to Odin's halls of valor trying to get Odin to
27:34
empower him is not that different from anything we'd see in you know when we go
27:41
to Utgard keep so I feel like you could probably make a line of descent and I
27:47
think that you'd see that the the Vool um the Dr and the Jared are also
27:55
reflecting what Joe just talked about in terms of elements and embodiment. Mhm. And the Iron Vicle are clearly they're
28:03
very similar to the MOU. The MOU basically went back and reoned
28:08
themselves. the iron vle are the result of changing the the forge of creation so
28:15
it doesn't it it makes iron people to try and slow down the curse of flesh
28:20
which turned out to not really work because the courage of the forge of creation is where the curse of flesh was
28:27
and that to me I've always believed that the curse of flesh is likely something that is deliberately engineered and just
28:34
what the old gods discovered was how to activate it um because it just feels
28:39
It feels too much like what they say in the disc of Norana when you find them in Aldon. And remember the Aldon disc of
28:45
Norana are supposed to be the ones that were like un unaltered by Loen. And in
28:51
those discs, it says that they they create servtors out of the stone and and elements of the planet, but those those
28:58
servtors will eventually be assimilated by the planet. So, it's possible that the the etins are just the first ones,
29:04
the first giants to start fleshing and they're kind of an offshoot of the curse
29:10
of flesh affecting giants, especially if it's affecting giants that are of mixed
29:16
descent because then it would make sense that they'd manifest the two heads cuz it's trying to manifest, you know, the
29:22
two natures of the entity, which is very similar to ogres with two heads. The ogres that have two heads, they're a
29:28
rare subtype of ogre, but they're not some kind of deviation from ogness.
29:33
They're something that happened. And the etins do it, too. And it might very well
29:38
be because when you take an elemental being that has more than one element inside of it, you have to let both of
29:45
those essences have a place to reside. You know, I I I feel like there's a lot you could do with this and I would like
29:52
to see more about it in terms of, you know, what's the difference between Azerothian and Drainish giants. Are
29:58
there giants in other worlds like uh the world that um that one uh you know
30:06
warrior Aloon's warrior there, the night warrior, I can't remember his name, but
30:12
God, I'm old. Uh but you know he talks about you know he's from a world where the the you know the the old gods came
30:17
and he fought them. Uh who knows are there giants there? What you know do do titans just make giants? Um
30:24
are you talking about? Yes. Thank you. Uh but like I mean another way to put it is titans titans
30:31
are inherently gigantic in nature. The word titan means strainer because they were straining against the heavens. And
30:38
the ones that we've got uh in World of Warcraft, those guys are enormous. They're planet sized, you know? I mean,
30:44
they're when they're not, you know, dead and have their their essence torn out of their body, they're they're literally
30:50
giant size. We see Sargeras attacking Azeroth. He's as big as Azeroth is.
30:57
Well, not quite. He's he's a little smaller than Azeroth, but I mean, when somebody's a little smaller than a
31:02
planet. Yeah. But also when we see him, he's in not in his full Titan form either. He's
31:08
in a gaseous form that we rip out. So like Yeah. Well, that's because he got himself, you know, he deliberately took
31:14
himself out of his own body so that he could infect uh Medivh
31:19
by by his mom, which is one of those stories that, you know, I don't think we need to talk about that. Um but yeah,
31:26
no, you're right. But still, he's planet sized in that form. He he deliberately takes the form of that is nearly as big
31:33
as a planet. That's their natural scale. Um so I feel like you know when when
31:41
when Agramar and I'm having to say Agramar, not Agamagen because that's
31:48
something that might come up later. But Agramar created GR. He did so like he
31:53
literally just grabbed a mountain and said, "Hey, that mountain is small enough to work with and made that
31:59
mountain a walking talking thing that wandered around punching uh the plant beings until they destroyed it. But when
32:06
they destroyed it, it became a lot of walking talking rock thing." Um, so
32:11
there I I do feel like the the Eten feel like an interesting piece of this kind
32:18
of unfinished Titan descent family we've got going on on Azeroth.
32:23
Yeah. Well, hopefully we'll find out more about them or I hopefully at some point we'll get back to them cuz man, do
32:31
I like weird races of Azeroth that we we get to to learn more about as as stories
32:36
progress. Yeah, but I think Oh, we should point out that they're they even eat torin. They do.
32:43
Which which to my mind is not good. You don't eat torrent. No, they eat they'll eat anything meat, right? Like that's just they're they're
32:49
the classic giants of like lore. Oh, you're a humanoid with intelligence. Don't care. Spit roast you're going to
32:55
get eaten. Maybe a little little light rosemary and some butter. Uh but hopefully that answers your question or
33:02
produces more questions. Whichever one makes you happier. Uh, Vixalink. We're going to move on to our next one, which
33:08
comes from our friend Razer Bug, who I love to call Razerberg. Uh, greetings all. So, I had a very strange thought
33:14
that kept making more sense the more I tried to ignore it. Is Azeroth the last Titan last/final? Because they're
33:21
already dead in so much as a Titan can be. Necriizing entities like the old gods and the Karaji are burrowed buried
33:29
burrowed deep within their flesh. We and many other factions mine or tap into Azeroth for almost all the resources we
33:36
can get. Even when they speak, it is only an echoed feelings and images to a
33:41
chosen few. I wonder if Azeroth has been dead for a very long time, and the numerous Titan facilities dotted around
33:48
their surface are life support CPR devices. Heck, we know one is a giant reset button. The dream has been called
33:54
backup copy for the longest time, perhaps left over from another attempt to revive the dead last Titan. When I
33:59
say long time, I wonder if realizing the truth was part of what drove Sargeras mad and part of his motivation was to
34:06
find some power that could fix the problem. Or maybe the cosmic forces are trying to end an undead titan. After
34:12
all, the sword was aimed at someone. # what sword? Then there is a relative
34:19
ease undeath seems to be achieved on Azeroth compared to other planets we've been to and its direct connection to the
34:25
Shadowlands. Heck, Zaval had engines of death sunk deep into Azeroth, perhaps realizing that they were a Titanic
34:32
presence in the death part of the cosmology. What do you think? Plausible or am I barking barking up the wrong
34:38
world tree? You've got a lot of stuff in there. Um, some of it I can understand where you're coming from, but some of it
34:45
is is based off the idea that essentially Azeroth and the world part
34:51
that we live on is like a transformer shell. when the the Titan wakes up that
34:57
it becomes part of their body. We don't know that that's actually what happens. We actually also don't really know what
35:02
a nent sleeping uh Titan really is because in all of our workings with
35:09
Azeroth, we've only seen glimpses of it. And we've seen Titan souls before
35:16
because when you go to Anourus and you do the raid, you literally see their souls, the essence of their being uh in
35:24
their constellation form cuz that's that's what it is. Uh sort of, you know,
35:29
without a body there and when they're released, they get another body. They didn't blow up a planet to get that
35:36
body. So things would sort of lean in my mind to that they don't necessarily need
35:42
to consume the planet to be born to essentially have a body. And so the
35:49
things burrowing in the skin well or or or the crust of or the earth may be
35:54
uncomfortable for Azeroth because maybe they can feel it because they're tied to it. But I don't know that it's
36:00
necessarily the same thing as necizing the flesh of a Matt may feel a little bit different about that. But I'll let
36:05
him chime in. They're not necizing entities. They're necrophotic entities.
36:11
What is the difference, Matt? Necrophotic means light eater or light
36:16
killer. They don't bring Think of Think about what they are. They're void.
36:22
Mhm. They're not death. They're void entities. Can you use void power to make
36:29
undead? Yes. Is it You can use light to make undead, though, too. Yes, you can. That's exactly my point.
36:36
In in this conflict, the the void is not
36:41
averse to attempting to colonize death. It is not averse to attempting to
36:46
essentially corrupt death, but it is not death. They are different things.
36:52
They're different forces. And I think that's a big part of why I don't think
36:58
Azeroth is dead. I don't think Azeroth is dead because partially because Azeroth doesn't have that same weird
37:05
hunger that most undead we see have. Like undead tend to have something that
37:12
they have to do to stick around, whether it's, you know, inflict pain on people
37:18
or consume raw, you know, raw corpses or what have you. Um, we saw a really
37:23
interesting thing in uh before the storm where the undead of, you know, um,
37:30
Unders City have there have people whose entire job is to to bring new parts to
37:36
fix people up because they're still decaying. Um, we know about the death knights needing to like inflict pain on
37:42
others or they'll be consumed by their own inherent inner death magic with the
37:48
void the void entities that are the old gods. I don't think that there anything
37:53
about them is death related. And that's one of the reasons I always thought Yag Sarin was really funny because he keeps
38:00
calling himself the god of death, but he's more like the god of murder. He's like the god of killing things because
38:06
he thinks it's funny. Um, he's cruel and and savage and, you know, very hard to
38:12
comprehend for those of us who are not old gods. But he doesn't, you'll notice he doesn't do a lot with undead. Like,
38:20
he doesn't have a bunch of undead servants. He he just has himself. Like,
38:26
the the the fact that the Lich King is making magical armor and weapons out of his blood certainly is interesting, but
38:33
it's not necessarily related to undeath. uh because there's nearly no undeath
38:38
aspect to Yagsaron. I don't that's that's one of the big reasons I don't think that uh Azeroth is dead because
38:45
killing Azeroth has never been the goal. Um just like before with the world that
38:51
Sargeras found. The goal is not to kill the Titan. The goal is to do to the
38:56
Titan what we just talked about happening with all these other elemental the semi-elemental beings. I think it's
39:03
a case of as as you know you know as above so below except in reverse. So bel
39:08
as below so above. Titans are just as susceptible to cosmic forces as like the
39:16
etins are to oh now I'm a fire etin now I'm a a water etin and that seems by design. Let's let's be
39:23
like that seems like that was part of the first one's plan. It's it is the nature of these entities to embody
39:30
things to the point where Sargeras became walking fell. Mhm. Not destroyed by them.
39:36
No, he became it. He He became a fell titan. That's what he is now.
39:42
And it should be noted that that is significant because fell at its very nature is born of destruction and
39:49
corrods and corrupts and destroys everything that uses it. it it except
39:55
Sargeras like he is the exception to this rule and there's probably a reason
40:01
for that. Yeah. And in terms of what Azeroth actually is, uh we've talked before
40:07
about the fact that you can find pretty much every cosmic force in existence on Azeroth. Like it draws them all here. Uh
40:14
I think that Joe has made that point more than once. And I definitely think that too is part of design.
40:20
Mhm. uh the the whole goal is to I don't think that what Azeroth is is strictly
40:26
speaking a titan in the way that like Amanthul and his followers are and for that matter I don't think Amadul and his
40:33
followers are entirely honest about who they really are and where they come from. Uh I think ENR for instance is
40:39
very definitely influenced by um the the Emerald Dream and uh Agamar is you know
40:46
what I was going to say in planer in planer we we've talked about this before too each of the Titans embodying a very
40:53
specific element or planer cosmology uh influence is not a mistake. I think it
41:00
also is by design and like ANR being being influenced by the wild like
41:06
unpredictability of chaos and life I think is important to note there as well, right? Like it's that's what
41:12
you're getting at. I think you are. Oh yeah, that's where I was attempting to get to, but luckily you're here to to actually get us there. Uh cuz I was not
41:19
getting there. Um, yeah, I definitely think there's there's a a malleability to these
41:26
entities and I think that that means there's a malleability to all the Titans creations which we've seen like you know
41:33
Storm Vool, Iron Vool, uh, you know, big jerk Vool that that one's not so much a
41:40
cosmic force, it's just he's a jerk, but still I mean there's a lot of different
41:45
uh, Vel. But look look what happened to Odin. Mhm. Odin fought Ragnaros. Ragnaros grabbed
41:51
his face and burned it and it's still burning. That beard is raw fire. But
41:58
that means that he changed to produce raw fire. He didn't used to have a big
42:04
cloud of fire coming down off of his his face. When as when Ragnaros burned him,
42:10
he took that into himself and began producing flame all the time from his
42:15
face. And I hate that that's very metal because I don't like Odin and I don't like to give him credit.
42:21
You can't deny the metal of it. You got to give up the that, you know, the beard made of fire. Uh, okay. Yeah,
42:27
fine. You got I'll give you that one. Oh, you jerk. But yeah, no, there's a there's a ton of things about it that I
42:34
think are important when when talking about what Azeroth actually is. Do I
42:39
think that death magic will be involved in it? Yes, I absolutely do. I think
42:45
that the fact that Shadowlands connected uh via Zerith Mortise to Azeroth and we
42:52
saw the Jailer using that means that the Shadowlands are inherently a part of
42:59
this design and therefore undeath is a part of this design. Yeah. And and like we often when we're
43:05
talking about the elemental nature and the planes and and the planer cosmology, we don't often talk about death as an
43:13
elemental or cosmic force. And we really should, right? Like so what Matt's
43:18
saying here I think absolutely plays a part of it in so much that Azeroth isn't
43:23
necessarily dead. Azeroth isn't undead. Azeroth is touched by the power of life
43:30
and death. much in the same way that Calamehil is, right? Like Calamehil is
43:36
not a traditional undead. Calamehil is somewhere in between. And Matt brought
43:41
this up a while ago and I think it is it is absolutely appropriate and applicable
43:46
here is that Kalia when we were talking about her, Matt said this is what you
43:52
should look at when thinking about Azeroth to an extent, right? because we've talked about the whole death of
43:58
Azeroth and whether it's alive or dead and and everything and it's something
44:03
more than those binary than that binary state. It transcends that binary nature.
44:10
Azeroth is both and neither at the same time. Azeroth Go ahead.
44:17
I just wanted to mention a little quote that I think does kick into this. They do not live. They do not die. Mhm.
44:24
They are beyond the cycle. I think that is that is what we're going to get.
44:29
That's what's happening here. Yeah. And and I can't shake the feeling and going back to it that that original
44:38
quote I think may have had something to do directly with referencing the first ones. And Azeroth may be the distilled
44:47
essence of the first ones in like that
44:52
form above the cycle, outside of the cycle, not alive, not dead, able to
44:58
touch and wield all the cosmic forces. The reason why Zerith Mortise, the zone
45:04
of death, the Zerith of death touches Azeroth. The septicle of the first ones,
45:11
the resting place of the first ones touches Azeroth. Why? Why specifically
45:18
Azeroth? And maybe it's because, and we we postulated this a while ago, that the
45:24
first ones didn't die. They repurposed themselves. They repurposed themselves
45:30
to try to find a solution to a problem that they individually could not solve.
45:38
They knew that these other elemental planes, these other cosmic entities, these forces existed because either they
45:43
were part of the design of it or they were stewards of it or just at a level
45:48
of like Anu sort of like being born at the dawn of the of of everything in the cosmos. And if they were trying to solve
45:57
this problem, distilling their essence or giving pieces of themselves to that project, to that goal, seems relevant.
46:04
It seems like something that Shadowlands told us they were doing, right? Like, and if Azeroth is that end point,
46:11
Azeroth is that distillation point, it would put it outside of the cycle. It would put it outside of life and death,
46:18
which is why it can touch the Shadowlands and not be a part of the Shadowlands, which is why it can touch
46:23
all the elemental plains and not be consumed by them. And we talked before about the Titans being influenced by
46:31
sort of their nearest cosmic power, whether it's life or arcane or whatever
46:37
the case is. Azeroth. I I if Azeroth is the perfect center of the universe and
46:42
multiverse or planer cosmology, which I maintain it very well could be, it would
46:47
make sense why none of them are able to take a big foothold over it. It would also explain why Fel does not
46:55
permanently or destroy Azeroth. Going back to the discussion we had with
47:00
Sargeras, he's an exception to the rule, right? like he's not consumed or destroyed by fell, but everything else
47:07
we know sort of is, except Azeroth. Azeroth can be scarred, but we've
47:13
already seen those scars heal and come back from it. And is that just a Titan thing? I don't necessarily think so. To
47:21
Matt's point, I think it puts her beyond Titan or above Titan and or maybe she is
47:28
actually a Titan and the other ones aren't. Does that make sense? potentially.
47:33
I think it's it I mean I think that she could be red redefining what it means
47:39
like what she is is the next stage where instead of having titans that can be
47:45
turned into a thing they she embodies all things. Uh there's there's definitely a sense of that kind of
47:51
coming together. I also think it's interesting that Azeroth has yet to wake up and might never. Mhm.
47:57
Um it would be kind of funny if the way Azeroth does become the final Titan is
48:02
by just making the people do things. Well, there's something to that, I think. Right. And I think we
48:08
I mean, we're all pieces of we're we're all pieces of Azeroth. We're all adopted children of Azeroth, right?
48:13
And we've already done things that no other entity is supposed to be able to do in the universe, right? We've the the
48:20
number of forces that we've stood up against, the number of things that we've intervened upon, uh the number of stuff,
48:26
the things that we have done that have made constellars go, "Wait a second, what uh is not insignificant."
48:35
And I I think going back to one of our earliest shows, uh I think you and Ann
48:40
made the point that in a in a real way, all these little things running around on Azeroth are kind of like its immune
48:47
system. like every time something bad is going to happen, uh the tea cells get up and start, you know, 40 manning, you
48:54
know, something until they've killed it enough. Um, and it's even funny that we
49:01
keep killing the same things over and over again because with demons, that's something you kind of have to do. You
49:06
can't just kill it once, you have to go back and kill it again. Um, so yeah, I
49:11
think I think there's a certain amount of that that's that's canonical at this point, even if it's never really
49:17
addressed. But I mean, what Algolon mentions it. Mhm. You defy cosmically calculated odds. Um,
49:24
to a degree, part of the problem here is that the Titans or at least like, you know, Amenthul can't grasp anything he
49:32
can't predict. you know, he he if it if it isn't, you know, if he can't just work it out with with his equations, he
49:39
doesn't he can't grasp it. Whereas we can defy things we we know should kill
49:44
us, we're going to try anyway cuz you know why not? You know what? You got anything better to do? Boom. You know,
49:51
and so I I definitely think there's a certain amount of that involved in this. Yeah. And and some of the other aspects
49:57
of your question here, uh like Sargeras going mad because Azeroth is already
50:03
dead. I don't think that's the case. Uh, Saras went mad well before that because
50:08
he witnessed the death of a world soul. Uh, he saw a world consumed by void. It
50:14
could have been Kash. We don't know the name of the world. It could have been Kesh. Uh, and we may find a linkage to there when we get to Caresh in the next
50:21
uh the next content update. Uh, but that's what drove him mad. this this
50:26
idea that there were things that he and the other Titans could not naturally
50:32
fix. And looking at Azeroth, I don't think it's Azeroth was dead. It's more
50:38
of a he may have understood more the reality of what Azeroth was
50:44
than the other Titans. And that may have to do with his traveling through the universe. That may have to do with the
50:51
entities that he's dealt with. Um, or it may have to do with the fact that the other ones blindly looked to Amanthul
50:57
and accepted whatever Amenthul said and Sargera said that's BS. Uh, when the
51:04
other ones wouldn't or couldn't or didn't know to. Um, there's also interesting thing about that. I was
51:10
going to actually ask you about this anyway. Do you think that the world soul of that planet was actually dead when it
51:17
became a void thing? Or do you think there was enough of it left that when
51:23
Sargeras killed it, he felt guilty and that's what broke him? Cuz I don't think it was that. I don't that we're told a
51:30
lot that it's, you know, he saw the futility of the Titans, you know, plans and that's what broke him. But I don't
51:36
think that was it. I think it was the fact that he killed one of his own because look at how hard he tries not to
51:41
kill the rest of them. I wanted to throw this at you because and this is a this is a tin foil hat moment folks. I've thought about this
51:48
and I'm not saying that there's anything that leans this way. But what if
51:54
Sargeras didn't kill the world soul, didn't destroy it, but made it something far
52:01
worse by doing whatever he did. Because Titan souls don't seem to die. They
52:07
don't seem to be able to pass in a traditional sense with the exception of our wonderful friend uh Anourus.
52:15
Um yeah, Argus. Argus. Right. So when Argus dies, he was
52:21
sent there, but he shouldn't have. He shouldn't have been able to. We That is
52:26
sort of like a key in here. What if what Sargeras did is the reason that
52:32
Dementius is existing? That whatever aspect of void infection was happening
52:38
would have been saved or staved off. But what he did enabled it to take full control. And that's what birthed
52:45
Dementius because nobody knows where Dementius really came from aside from it's a void entity. The Atherealss don't
52:52
even know where it came from uh or how that void lord found Caresh or why it
52:59
was there. And it seems to have a lot of the hallmarks of a titanic being or an
53:04
entity of that sort of very nature. It very much seems like a void titan to me in almost every aspect, including the
53:11
fact that when we fight it, when we fight the void lord Dementius, and I'm air quoting that very heavily, it's an
53:18
aspect of it. It is not the full thing. You know, the same thing Sargeras did.
53:25
The same thing the other Titans have done multiple times. So, what if that's
53:32
what drove him mad? Not necessarily that he killed a world soul, but he created his own worst enemy, something he was
53:39
supposed to be fighting against and gave it something so much more powerful, which is why he's so invested in
53:46
Azeroth. So invested in keeping Azeroth from, and I'm going to air quote,
53:52
falling to the void because he's seen what that can do already. My two cents.
53:57
And again, it's an interesting theory. Uh, it just caused me to have a different one and I don't have time to really elucidate it.
54:03
But what if killing the Titan when Titans aren't supposed to die started the process that led to the devourer
54:10
showing up like a beacon going off in the night or a flaw. You create a rip in the in
54:17
the fabric of existence and it's a rip. You know, keep in mind all of creation as it currently stands is a tapestry of
54:25
sorts woven by the first ones, right? Mhm. and you go along and you just rip
54:31
the damn thing. Now there's a big hole in the thing. That's not It's not like a void. Voids can exist in tapestries.
54:38
There's like this is this area here that's got nothing in it. But now you've ripped the fabric of it. Now that thing
54:44
is not part of the tapestry, but it's ruining the tapestry. Or
54:50
or another side of that going back to the devourers the other side is that it could have also been if a titan can't
54:56
die or it necessarily doesn't go to the shadowlands what happens when that be
55:01
when that soul is ren uh where does it go? Does it go to an in between space?
55:06
Does it go to a place of non-existence where devourers come from? are devourers
55:13
aspects of that fallen titan looking to reclaim life in essence.
55:18
And here's another thing to think about while you're thinking about that. You could be right about dementious and this could still be true.
55:24
Yeah. Both can both can be true at the same time. Souls break. We've seen that in we saw
55:29
Shadowlands. Yeah. Souls fracture. Souls break. Pieces of souls can be, you know,
55:35
you can have a piece of Arthus' soul while the rest of his soul is condemned to eternal darkness. You can have a
55:40
piece of Sylvanas's soul, which is why she can't feel and think properly. You
55:45
You can have Uther's soul in the Shadowlands and at a tomb in in Azeroth
55:51
at the same time. Um, rune weapons can cause soul fragmentation.
55:57
What does Sargeras's Gorchelock if it not a rune weapon? You going to tell me
56:03
Gorschelok is not a rune weapon? Cuz I don't buy it. I mean, yeah.
56:08
Yeah. And if you fragment the soul of a Titan, a world soul, what does that do?
56:15
Since none of the pieces are supposed to go to the Shadowlands, right? And that that actually brings another question.
56:21
Is that all of Argus? Mhm. When we when we quote unquote killed
56:27
Argus, was that all of him that went to the Shadowlands? Because all of Argus, a
56:33
world soul, should have been a pretty big problem. And it it's a problem. We do fight it during the whole process of
56:40
trying to get somebody to be the arbiter again, but it's really not as dangerous
56:47
as it was when we fought it, you know, in a raid. It's not It doesn't feel like it's all of him.
56:53
No, it doesn't. And if it's not And if it's not all of him, where did the rest of him go? Is
56:58
that the only way you could get a Titan soul to go? You know, is it's like a civ almost, right? Like is
57:04
it something that only certain things of certain size can pass through it? And is that what happened with the
57:10
fragmentation of Argus' soul is what allowed a portion of it to fall to the
57:17
the Shadowlands? That's a very good point. So now we've you've made it worse and now we have this whole thing. Um
57:24
congratulations. I'm I'm not sleeping for a few days. You you say made it worse. I say Razer Bug made it better because that's a
57:30
whole bunch of tinfoil hat theories that I would not be surprised if some other lore content talkers will be picking up in the near future. I see you, Talison
57:38
and Evitel. Uh, but I think we're going to go ahead and call it there. Uh, friends, I do want to thank you for
57:44
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[Music]