Up next in 10
We love answering your questions, especially when it lets us don our tinfoil hat. Our first question this week was relatively straightforward: If you were to run a WoW TTRPG for a Horde campaign and an Alliance campaign, what would it be? With three hosts, there were six varied answers. We move from there to conflict among the Titans, and why some all-powerful beings might clash. Speaking of all-powerful, then we talk about the counterplay of the Light and the Void -- and the Naaru. Part of it is how the two forces interact, based on some of the earlier vignettes from the first few expansions of WoW. And how do all those forces relate to another magic force we've seen coursing inherently through all creatures through a few different expansions: Anima?
It is a tin foil hat good time on this week's Lore Watch.
If you want even more background story, we also have a guide to every Warcraft book in chronological order (for those of you who prefer reading that way): https://blizzardwatch.com/warcraft-books/
Subscribe to Lore Watch in your podcast player for more video game lore:
RSS: https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/6556539150cd070012089193
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lore-watch-podcast/id1023224738
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1CIJRbwbEVQfCg8r94HCwO
Visit us at https://blizzardwatch.com for the latest news on Blizzard games, and don't forget to subscribe on Patreon to support our efforts! https://www.patreon.com/blizzardwatch
Discord: https://discord.gg/MY9p4d7t8U
Bluesky: @blizzardwatch.com
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:12
table free form discussion to learn your
0:13
favorite media. I'm your host Joe Perez,
0:16
one of several lore focused folks, and
0:18
I've got my uh totally bodacious
0:20
cowabunga surfing cohorts with me today.
0:23
Uh Matt Rossi and Eric Oday. How you
0:25
doing, guys?
0:26
>> Not too bad. Uh, I it's it's it's time
0:30
for midnight and I'm I'm at like 12:01.
0:32
I haven't had a lot of time. I've had
0:34
life interrupted for this weekend for
0:36
early access. So, I'm only a little bit
0:38
into the story, but I'm I'm I'm calling
0:40
my main blood elf character just kind of
0:42
um checking out Silver Moon. And that's
0:43
what I'm doing. That's that's what I'm
0:44
doing this weekend.
0:45
>> Heck yeah. And I think that's a good
0:46
time. How about you, Matt? Well, because
0:48
of what we were talking about before and
0:50
the thing you just referenced in your
0:51
intro, I I flash on a joke that my wife
0:54
and I have had for a few years now.
0:56
Whenever one of us says, "Oh god, I'm so
0:58
itchy." The other one goes, "The blind
1:00
swordsman."
1:02
And and just that's in my head now. Just
1:04
just every time. And I know it wasn't so
1:07
Itchy. I know that wasn't his name. It
1:08
was Satoshi, wasn't it? I'm not insane,
1:10
am I?
1:11
>> Yamato Hatoshi or Hatoshi Yamato,
1:14
something like that. Yeah. Yeah.
1:15
>> Yeah. But I just, you know, So itchy,
1:17
the fine swordsman. I don't know why
1:20
that sounds so to me So Itchy sounds
1:21
like a like a samurai name, you know.
1:24
>> It it kind of does. Yeah. So we were we
1:26
were talking about Ninja Turtles uh at
1:28
the before we started recording the
1:30
show. So if you ever want to know about
1:32
Ninja Turtles lore, comics, movies, TV
1:35
shows,
1:36
>> let us know and we'll be more than happy
1:37
to do an episode on it.
1:38
>> There's so much Ninja Turtles, guys. If
1:40
you just know the cartoon, there's so
1:41
much more.
1:42
>> There's so much more. Uh but we're not
1:44
going to be talking about that. We're
1:45
going to be talking about questions that
1:47
you, our wonderful listeners, have sent
1:49
into us. There are two things that I
1:51
would like to kind of get out of the way
1:52
at the front. Uh, one is I do want to
1:54
thank all of our listeners for
1:56
continuing to support us. Uh, and I do
1:58
want to give a special shout out to
2:00
somebody I ran into in game today before
2:02
the recording. Uh, shout out to
2:04
Dennithar from Aerithor. Thank you for
2:06
being a continued listener. We
2:07
appreciate that support. Uh, if you are
2:10
a listener and a supporter of us or you
2:12
just want us to answer questions, I do
2:14
want to remind you that we thrive off
2:16
that. So, you can go ahead and send
2:17
those in to podcast at
2:18
blizzleasardwatch.com. We ask that you
2:20
specify which of our three shows that it
2:22
is for because we just have lore watch,
2:23
Blizzard watch, and the tavern watch,
2:25
which are our tabletop imprint. Be sure
2:27
to just specify what which show you want
2:29
us to answer those questions for. Uh, as
2:31
well as any special pronunciation of
2:33
your name. If you don't want to do that,
2:35
you can also hit us up on Discord. We
2:37
have the Q and podcast question channel
2:38
which is open for everybody. Same rules
2:40
apply. If you are a Patreon supporter,
2:43
we ask that you go ahead and use the
2:44
patron Q and podcast questions channel.
2:46
It's set aside specifically for you uh
2:50
our Patreon subscribers where we can
2:51
look there first and it's a little extra
2:53
way of saying thank you. And I do want
2:55
to put this out there for you something
2:57
that I've been very interested in lately
2:58
and I've been talking with a lot of
2:59
people and I'm interested to hear your
3:01
stories on it. Also, feel free to send
3:03
us how you got into the lore of
3:07
Blizzard, how you got sucked into it,
3:09
what interests you about it. I'd like to
3:11
know how you engage with that section of
3:15
it. Not just how we view it, but I like
3:17
knowing how other people do that. So,
3:20
feel free to send that in. I I look at
3:22
all of them. I would love to know uh and
3:24
if it's a particularly uh interesting or
3:27
touching uh story or or uh something
3:29
like that, maybe we'll read it out on
3:31
the show as well. But that we're going
3:33
to go ahead and get started. We're kind
3:34
of going to jump around a few places
3:36
there. We're going to try to avoid
3:38
midnight spoilers, but there may be some
3:41
I'll call it midnight vibe checks uh
3:44
where we may reference something that is
3:46
potentially in uh the expansion as a
3:50
result of some of these questions
3:51
without actually going into too many
3:53
details, trying to keep it vague so that
3:55
you guys can uh go through and
3:57
experience yourself. And I will say if
3:58
you are playing Midnight, I highly
4:01
recommend that you do the stay a while
4:03
and listen every single chance you get.
4:08
They have gone out of their way to do
4:10
some incredible character building and
4:13
storytelling through these otherwise
4:16
missed quiet moments if you don't take
4:17
the time to click and sit and wait. And
4:20
we will absolutely be talking about
4:22
these in the future because man, there's
4:24
some good stuff there. Uh, but this one
4:25
comes from Marian who uh or sorry,
4:28
Meron, who has sent us quite a bit.
4:30
We're going to start with one though as
4:32
a special treat for my friend Matt here.
4:34
Uh, a few months ago, I asked in which
4:36
era you would run a Warcraft RPG, and
4:39
the answers were great, including one
4:40
focus on the War of the Ancients. Now, I
4:43
want to expand on that. If you were to
4:45
run two Warcraft RPG campaigns, one
4:48
focus on alliance characters and one on
4:50
Horde characters, what would those two
4:52
stories be? Bonus question. When are you
4:55
going to play Warcraft RPG on the Tavern
4:57
Watch? Uh, I can answer that one at
4:59
least now as soon as I can get everybody
5:00
to agree to it because that book is
5:02
burning a hole on the shelf of both me
5:04
and Matt. I know that for a fact. But
5:06
Matt, I'll give it to you first.
5:08
>> I I got both the Warcraft RPG and World
5:11
of Warcraft the RPG.
5:12
>> I have the Diablo one, too. The old
5:14
Diablo.
5:15
>> Oh, me too. Yeah, I do. Diablo. Yeah,
5:17
absolutely. Um, Diablo 2. Diablo. Yeah,
5:19
I get that.
5:21
Um, here's the thing. Uh, I I I was
5:25
thinking about this in terms of like how
5:27
I would make it the most fun for the
5:28
most amount of people. Like if I
5:30
actually had two groups that would show
5:32
up for two separate RP two separate
5:34
campaigns. And I decided what I would do
5:38
is I would run one campaign starting on
5:41
Dranor that this would be the the the
5:43
one with like orcs in it. Uh, so I guess
5:47
horde and advancing from there to
5:51
arriving on Azeroth to the, you know,
5:54
the whole deal of forming the horde as
5:56
we know it now just before World of
5:58
Warcraft comes out. Basically in that
6:00
thing, except they play as characters
6:02
who are jumping back and forth through
6:04
time. So one day it's like quantum leap
6:08
with a party of of of hoarde characters
6:11
and you jump back to like the very
6:14
beginning and then you jump forward to
6:16
just before the dark portal opens and
6:18
you jump forward again to you know K is
6:23
uh you know you know finally joining up
6:26
with the rest of the horde to to fight
6:28
the uh centaurs and then eventually of
6:30
course you know Mount Hyel and you jump
6:33
back and forth to like highlight periods
6:35
where they're basically fighting the
6:36
infinite dragon flight to keep the horde
6:39
from being destroyed. Because I don't
6:40
know if you noticed this, but a lot of
6:41
times it felt like the infinite dragon
6:43
flight was trying to destroy the horde.
6:45
Like if go back to original vanilla and
6:48
BC wow and it felt like why are we here
6:52
at at Stratholm Infinite Dragon Flight
6:55
to prevent Arthus from becoming the Lich
6:58
King which is a big deal because if
7:00
Arthus doesn't become the Lich King the
7:03
chances are very good that we don't
7:04
survive the coming of the Horde. I mean
7:07
not the of the Horde of of the Scourge.
7:09
like it the whole deal with him actually
7:13
helps weaken the scourge pretty pretty
7:16
successfully. If if not for him fighting
7:18
to try and kill the three um dreadlords,
7:22
everything goes in a different
7:23
direction. So I I keep thinking about
7:26
that would be really cool to do horde
7:28
characters who are jumping back and
7:29
forth um like that. For the Alliance
7:32
characters, I'm going to I would do
7:33
something that's based on something
7:35
that's been bugging me for years. At the
7:37
at the time that Warlords of Dranor came
7:39
out, one thing people kept pointing out
7:42
was that if on that alternate Drraanor,
7:46
they didn't jump to Azeroth the way that
7:48
they did in our timeline. Is there an
7:51
Azeroth out there that the Horde never
7:53
came to? Is there a is there an Azeroth
7:56
where there's no Lich King because
7:58
Guldon ne, you know, Nerzul and Guldon
8:02
never open a portal to it? It it never
8:04
happens. Like, what would that world be
8:07
like? And what if the Alliance
8:08
characters show up in that world and
8:12
find out that things are not as good as
8:14
they might seem to be in the first, you
8:16
know, session? First session, it's like,
8:17
yay, it's a utopia. And then you find
8:19
out some things are much worse than you
8:20
think they are. Um, so that's be that'd
8:23
be one of the ideas I've got going. The
8:25
two of the ideas in terms of stuff I
8:27
would do with a Warcraft role playing
8:29
game that I was running, which by the
8:31
way I would probably run using a Power
8:34
by the Apocalypse game or maybe maybe
8:38
something a little bit more crunchy if I
8:40
felt like it. Honestly, you could
8:42
probably do it in D and D 5e uh because
8:44
you know the the Warcraft and World of
8:46
Warcraft games were both in third
8:48
edition. So, I don't think it would be
8:50
that hard to run it in 5e. But yeah, so
8:53
that's me.
8:54
>> Eric, what about you?
8:55
>> I thought it would be cool. I always
8:56
like the throwbacks and the to go as far
8:58
back as you can. I think it would be
9:00
cool to pick up the original Thread of
9:03
Orcs and Humans, the original Warcraft,
9:05
and make your own characters and have it
9:07
be part of that campaign because there
9:08
are there's almost no characters there,
9:11
you know? Like in World of Warcraft, we
9:13
are the player characters and there's so
9:15
many that you lose track of and you have
9:17
to listen to a podcast called Lore Watch
9:18
to even sort it out. But going all the
9:21
way back to Warcraft, it takes a while
9:23
before you even get to like a couple
9:25
named characters. So if you had a party
9:27
that was going on these missions that
9:29
was, hey, we heard there's these weird
9:31
green skinned humanoids coming out of
9:33
the southern area, but your you know,
9:36
your your missions are to to go explore
9:39
that. There's some dungeons sprinkled in
9:41
there. there are some characters you you
9:43
could now that we have 30 years of story
9:47
on top of that you could uh you know
9:49
take some characters that were maybe old
9:51
enough to be around there and see their
9:53
younger versions and things like that.
9:54
So I think it would be fascinating to do
9:57
something like that where you would take
9:59
that structure and just kind of fill in
10:02
where you think what what fascinating
10:05
things you think could have happened but
10:06
might have happened but keep that main
10:08
narrative. Um, and then obviously it
10:11
those two campaigns for orcs and humans
10:13
end in different ways. So you'd have to,
10:16
you know, figure out how to reconcile
10:18
that. Um, but yeah, the idea of
10:22
something like that or something like
10:23
the idea of a a party of characters
10:25
living in one place with stuff happening
10:28
all around them and then you could go
10:30
each kind of campaign or couple of
10:32
sessions would be just huge leaps in
10:34
time. Like imagine just a a party of
10:36
horde characters that live, you know, in
10:39
the suburbs of Ormar and the events of
10:42
all of the expansions of World of
10:44
Warcraft happen and all these things.
10:45
How many cut scenes have we have and how
10:47
many battles have we fought outside the
10:48
gates and they're just kind of like
10:49
there trying to survive and having all
10:52
these things happen to them. It would be
10:53
good if it was like, okay, what's what
10:55
session are we in? What what time period
10:57
are we in this week? Well, now um you
10:59
know, Ormar is under siege and now the
11:02
demon hunters have showed up and all
11:04
those kind of things. So, yeah, picking
11:06
picking just the right era seems pretty
11:08
fun.
11:08
>> All right. Well, I've got two answers,
11:12
so strap in here. For the horde side, I
11:16
thought it would be interesting and
11:18
maybe for both of these to go into sort
11:20
of a microcosm of stories as opposed to
11:23
some of the larger events that we know
11:25
have already happened. So avoiding the
11:27
wars, uh, avoiding necessarily the
11:30
events that we participated in, whether
11:32
we played through them in the RTS's or
11:35
in through World of Warcraft. So for the
11:37
Horde side, I actually thought it would
11:39
be interesting to sort of dissect what
11:41
happened in the Gurabashi Empire. So
11:44
actually going through every player is a
11:46
troll. Maybe they're dark spear, maybe
11:49
they're from any of the other tribes
11:50
that made up the Gurabashi Empire in
11:52
Strangle Thorn Veil. Because one of the
11:55
things that I always thought was
11:56
interesting is the dark spear because
11:58
this is Vulg and his people, they were
12:01
part of this Gurubashi Empire. Uh but
12:04
because of the constant waring and
12:07
because of how small they were
12:09
relatively compared to everybody else,
12:12
uh they eventually sort of fled and were
12:16
basically forced to settle on a chain of
12:18
islands instead where we find them today
12:20
or we found them originally. Um, but
12:23
they were also very different than a lot
12:26
of the other trolls of that era as well,
12:29
particularly the shadow hunters. Shadow
12:31
hunters were a very specific dark spear
12:33
thing. And they had a more profound
12:37
connection with the Lowa and the spirit
12:40
of hunting and everything else. And I
12:43
thought it would be interesting to go
12:45
back and run a game potentially where
12:48
everybody is members of, you know, the
12:51
Gerbash Empire trying to navigate this
12:54
war torn uh politically charged
12:57
environment while also trying to get the
13:00
maximum number of their people out
13:02
safely, this the sort of like extraction
13:04
of their people from this volatile
13:07
region. And I thought that that would be
13:09
really cool and potentially very
13:11
compelling because it's a story one we
13:13
haven't really been told. We've got bits
13:15
and pieces of it from various books and
13:17
short stories, but it gives players this
13:21
sort of perfect framework in my mind
13:23
where they can take actions that haven't
13:26
been predefined. We know that there is a
13:29
result, but it is not a finite result.
13:32
the number of failures and successes of
13:34
how many escaped. We don't know what
13:37
that final number was. So, you can have
13:40
stakes even knowing what the end state
13:42
is. And it's very rare that you get to
13:44
do that when you're trying to set
13:46
something in a story that has already
13:48
been established. Um, and the best part
13:50
is there's no, and no offense to Matt or
13:52
anything like that, but it avoids what I
13:56
struggle with with players, which is
13:57
time stuff. because while it's fun, not
14:01
everybody at the table can sort of
14:03
handle the mentality of bouncing back
14:05
and forth through time. Uh, and so it
14:08
sort of removes that from the element.
14:09
Which is why I think I answered this
14:11
question a while ago why I would never
14:13
run a Caverns of Time uh game based
14:16
game. Um, because I think that's a
14:18
little little too it doesn't fit.
14:20
There's no stakes, I guess, would be the
14:21
best way to for the Alliance side.
14:23
>> To me, for to me the stakes are you die.
14:27
>> Sure. But, you know, I get what you're
14:29
saying. I just I'm the kind of guy who
14:32
really loves complicated time travel.
14:34
Sorry.
14:34
>> No, no, there's nothing wrong with that.
14:36
And I absolutely love playing in those
14:37
types of games. But for it just for me,
14:40
it's when I say player consequence, I
14:42
mean telling a story where the
14:44
consequence exists beyond their single
14:47
character. I'm the type of player that
14:49
if I'm don't have anything else to lose,
14:52
I know how I would think. I will be an
14:55
absolute chaos gremlin because if my
14:57
character dies, it's just my character.
14:59
Uh versus if my character dies, this
15:02
orphanage goes up in flames. So like
15:04
giving something that is like gives
15:07
stakes in that regard, I think makes it
15:09
forces them to be a little more
15:11
invested. At the same on the alliance
15:14
side, I thought about a parallel with
15:16
that and it sort of fits almost
15:18
perfectly, which is Noron. Normagon was
15:22
once a bustling city. It was a thriving
15:25
gnomeish like civilization essentially.
15:29
And I'd like to explore potentially what
15:33
life was like for the gnomes during that
15:35
time and what led into the disaster that
15:38
caused the radiation to cause the
15:40
lepernomes uh epidemic to cause the
15:43
trogs to go haywire to cause them to
15:46
lose the complicated and surprisingly
15:49
large underground city of Nreon and then
15:53
actually have it be a something that can
15:55
they can compare and contrast to what
15:56
Mecca be, right? Like I I personally
15:59
think that that would be really cool. Uh
16:01
I would love to run a game like that for
16:03
folks where they can get to explore
16:04
that, get to explore gnome culture,
16:07
which I have heard from several people,
16:09
including Liz. I see you Liz. I
16:11
acknowledge you, Liz. Uh that there's
16:14
not enough gnome storytelling in the
16:15
game uh these days. Uh it tends to be
16:18
all elves and trolls all the way down
16:20
for the most part, which is not wrong.
16:23
Uh, so I thought that would be
16:24
potentially interesting as well. Uh, to
16:27
get them to sort of have that moment of
16:29
experiencing what Gnome civilization was
16:32
like and then have it lead up to that
16:34
catastrophe, that big event where, you
16:36
know, the radiation starts making people
16:38
sick. Uh, they have to investigate and
16:41
figure out what's happening. Maybe
16:43
they're tasked by Mecctorque. Um, you
16:45
know, we need the our best, brightest
16:47
minds to figure out what the cause of
16:49
this is. and then have that same thing
16:51
where it's like now we know what's going
16:52
on. Now people are starting to go crazy
16:54
and you're starting to have this like
16:57
assault upon the rest of Norgon and you
17:00
got to get out. You you got to get to
17:01
your allies. The closest allies being
17:04
the dwarves over in Iron Forge. Um but
17:08
you can't necessarily get word to them.
17:10
You have to do it yourself. uh and using
17:12
your cunning, your inventions, and using
17:15
the city itself as ways to get out and
17:18
uh to get people out before you know the
17:21
everything collapses and leaves it to
17:23
the Nomon that we know it was before
17:25
Operation Nomon before they reclaimed
17:27
bits and parts of it. So like I think
17:30
that those would be two very interesting
17:32
stories to potentially tell. Uh and
17:34
maybe I hope people would be interested
17:35
in maybe playing and experiencing that.
17:38
I don't know. You guys can tell me if
17:39
you think those would be fun or not. I
17:41
mean, I can certainly see ways that I
17:42
would enjoy them. Uh, I think for the
17:45
Gur Brushy one though, you know what you
17:47
got me immediately thinking?
17:49
>> I immediately wanted to like to one of
17:52
the players is playing the Ammani
17:54
diplomat. Yeah.
17:57
>> It was like he's he's there to observe,
17:59
but sometimes he tries to screw things
18:02
up, but then again, he's like, I may
18:03
hate you, but I hate the Xandelari more.
18:07
And oh my word, do I hate the humans
18:09
more than that. So Oh, humans. The
18:12
humans from Stormander are invading. Oh,
18:14
I'm down. I'm I'll kill things. Sure,
18:16
bring them on. Like I cuz you could do a
18:19
lot with the the inter troll rivalries.
18:21
Like the fact that the Ammani and
18:23
Grabashi absolutely hated each other and
18:25
the Xandelari used that
18:28
>> to get them both out of their, you know,
18:30
before they destroyed the Xandelari.
18:32
Somebody was like, "Why don't you guys
18:33
go fight the bug things?" And because
18:36
you're so brave and heroic and the fact
18:39
that there's like still like I I forget
18:43
the name of it, but in in uh what's the
18:45
uh battle for Azeroth zone with the the
18:48
fox?
18:48
>> Oh, Mulun.
18:50
>> Maldun.
18:52
>> Valdun.
18:52
>> Maldun.
18:53
>> Okay. Uh in there there's an old city
18:57
that is the original home of the Ammani.
19:00
I don't think you ever see the original
19:01
home of the Gorabash.
19:02
>> No, no, but the you do see the Ammani.
19:05
>> And I've always been like, how did you
19:07
go from there to the entire north part
19:10
of the Eastern Kingdoms before it was
19:13
the Eastern Kingdom? So, there's a lot
19:15
of cool stuff you could do with like the
19:17
the Inter Troll stuff that I would make
19:18
me really interested.
19:20
>> Yeah, I like I said, I just thought it
19:21
would be fun because I don't think we
19:22
get enough troll storytelling for that
19:24
era. So, it'd be interesting to fill in
19:26
the blanks. But yeah, all good.
19:28
I'd roll a gnome.
19:29
>> I'd roll a troll. I'd roll a gnome. I'd
19:30
do this.
19:32
>> All right. Well, that's at least two
19:33
players. All right. Well, thank you very
19:35
much for that uh that question, Meron.
19:37
We're going to move on to some others
19:38
here real quick. Uh and then you I know
19:41
you sent in about five questions. We
19:43
might have time for more. We'll see. If
19:45
not, we'll save them for future
19:46
episodes. Uh this one comes from Mark
19:48
Paladin on Bronzebeard. We get this type
19:50
of question a lot. Uh so, let's see if
19:53
we can kind of maybe give a little more
19:54
color to it. Um, is Aloon a world soul
19:58
in its most natural form? Is this why
20:00
Amanthul doesn't like her? She
20:02
transformed before he can influence her.
20:04
Also, the look of the void spire reminds
20:06
me of a Naru. Could the Naru be could be
20:09
originally have been void creatures that
20:12
were changed to the light?
20:15
Um, I'll go first here real quick. Aloon
20:17
being a world soul, I don't know that
20:19
that's necessarily the case. Um, I think
20:22
they've pretty much established that
20:24
she's not in many of the things that
20:26
they've brought forward. Uh, especially
20:28
in so talking about her relationships
20:30
and how things were. And I know that
20:33
that was a talking point for a lot of
20:34
folks where it's like, oh well, Aloon
20:37
was in a relationship with um, why can't
20:40
I think of her name now? The the
20:41
naturalist one,
20:42
>> ANR.
20:44
And it's like, well, world soul dates
20:46
world soul. And it's like, not
20:48
necessarily. Cosmic forces are cosmic
20:51
forces. They're just on a different
20:52
scale than us. Doesn't mean that she's a
20:54
world soul. Um, and really, we've
20:57
already established that Amanthul
20:58
definitely didn't like her because Aloon
21:01
is wild chaos naturally, right? Not in a
21:07
bad way. Chaos doesn't necessarily mean
21:09
bad. It means unpredictability. It means
21:13
that it doesn't necessarily follow a
21:15
specific design in nature. And we talk
21:18
about this a lot on on the main podcast
21:20
and Matt and I will go on random science
21:22
tangents with this like divergent
21:24
evolution and convergent evolution and
21:28
items like that. Aloon is all of those
21:30
things. Almond cannot stand variance.
21:35
It's very similar to in my opinion the
21:38
description of the void and the light.
21:41
Aloon allows for all natural
21:42
possibilities. Uh, yes, she's going to
21:45
try to do things like maybe save her
21:46
favorite children when they're burning
21:48
in a tree, but for the most part, nature
21:51
is this wonderful wild thing that
21:53
flourishes. That's life. That's that's
21:56
her sort of domain. And Amthula's order
22:00
wants things, he wants things a very
22:02
specific way. And if it deviates from
22:06
that or if it can't be made to heal or
22:09
brought to heal, then he doesn't like it
22:12
and it needs to be destroyed. Look at
22:14
Sargeras.
22:16
>> Let Let me jump in for a second for
22:17
people who remember old sitcoms. You
22:19
guys remember the Neil Simon play, the
22:22
the odd couple?
22:24
>> I do. where you have two characters who
22:28
one of them is extremely
22:31
rigidly orderly presenting. Like that's
22:34
his that's his entire Felix is his
22:36
entire life is being orderly. Oscar is
22:39
not. Oscar is literally the reason Oscar
22:42
the Grouch from Sesame Street is living
22:44
in a trash can is because he is inspired
22:47
by Oscar from you know the you know the
22:49
odd couple
22:50
>> perfectly portrayed by Jack Lemon and
22:52
Walter Matthal by the way.
22:53
>> Yeah.
22:53
>> Yeah. and not didn't do too bad for the
22:56
TV show either. Uh quite frankly with
22:58
Jack Plugman uh oh like I can't remember
23:01
the other actor and I should he's a
23:03
freaking genius and a classic. But point
23:05
being these characters
23:08
just don't get along on a fundamental
23:12
level where it's like everything that is
23:16
sacred to Amen is at best unimportant to
23:21
Aloon and everything that is what Aloon
23:23
is part of makes Aanthol nervous. Like
23:28
it it it's it's a fundamental discon.
23:31
Doesn't mean that they're enemies
23:33
necessarily. It doesn't mean that Amos
23:34
is trying to kill her, but it does mean
23:37
that he is very loathed to go along with
23:40
ideas of hers,
23:41
>> which is why he did he heavily
23:44
discouraged ANR's whatever. And you
23:47
know, again, as as as Joe pointed out,
23:50
trying to make it into them being
23:51
boyfriend to being two girls, you know,
23:54
girlfriends, that's trying to impose our
23:57
mortal perspective on these ancient
23:59
endless beings. But whatever their
24:02
relationship was, Amanthul would
24:04
inherently discourage it because it is
24:06
not orderly.
24:08
>> Yeah. I mean, Amanthul didn't really
24:09
care for ANR either in that regard. Like
24:12
wanted her to be very rigid in what she
24:14
did and follow his instructions
24:17
specifically, too.
24:18
>> She's already too chaotic and now she's
24:20
hanging out with Chaos over there.
24:22
>> Yep. Uh chaos that's also tied to the
24:24
light, like in a form of the light,
24:26
which we'll get into in a moment. Uh but
24:29
yeah, Eric, what about you? What do you
24:31
think?
24:31
>> Yeah, I like where the question's
24:33
getting at. Like the idea of why why
24:37
specifically Amen Thul doesn't like her.
24:39
Is it because she's specifically
24:42
something or is it just because she's
24:43
not order? And it seems like yeah, what
24:46
you guys are getting at is it's because
24:48
she's very much not order. She's not or
24:50
she doesn't conform to what Amanthul's
24:52
idea of how shaping the universe should
24:55
be. Like would would he be as mad at the
25:00
Winter Queen if she gave ANR a big femur
25:03
instead of ANR giving her a branch of
25:05
the mother tree just because it was not
25:08
order, it was something else? Or would
25:10
that be, you know, not as bad because
25:13
something specific about ANR stepped him
25:15
off?
25:16
>> I I don't think it's just that I don't
25:18
think it's that he just doesn't like
25:19
Aloon. I think I think it is very much
25:22
what Aloon represents. But I also do
25:25
think that if the Winter Queen gave
25:28
Aonara a giant bone, um, wow, dude,
25:32
phrasing, by the way. Uh, I I I feel
25:35
like if that were to happen, it would
25:38
still be not the proper order. Because
25:41
that's the other thing. It's not just
25:43
that Amul wants order. Amen has a very
25:46
specific order in mind.
25:48
>> Yeah. And if anything deviates from his
25:50
plan of that order like we saw that with
25:52
>> even his watchers, right? Like if you
25:54
look at like Roden, Roden had a very
25:57
different idea of how order should be
25:59
structured and it was anthemma to Amen.
26:03
Like when Amenthul's personality crashed
26:05
into him. That's why it was so
26:08
discordant for him. Not just because it
26:09
was a Titan's power, but like imagine
26:11
your Amenthul looking through Roden's
26:14
eyes and seeing what Roden's been doing
26:16
and it doesn't match with what you told
26:19
him to do. You're going to get a little
26:22
angry inside of your cage, especially
26:24
after you just got splintered from
26:25
whatever body you had. So like, yeah,
26:28
there there's there's a level of that
26:30
order. Yes, but all order isn't the
26:33
same. Amanul seems a little bit like the
26:35
world's worst HOA president and his way
26:39
is the way and anything else isn't going
26:42
to go because it has to be done his way.
26:44
>> That is the best possible analogy that I
26:47
can think of for it. He is 100% your
26:50
terrible HOA's president. That is
26:53
exactly who Aman Thu is, man.
26:55
>> Yeah. I mean, very much down to the part
26:56
where he shows up at your house and
26:58
starts telling you you got to do this
27:00
and you got to do that or he's going to,
27:02
you know, he's going to enforce, you
27:04
know, bylaw 72 and you're like, you're
27:06
>> I'm not even part of your HOA. I don't
27:09
care
27:10
>> or now. Um, but
27:12
>> and then he's trying to figure out what
27:13
ANR is doing and he's like, what do you
27:15
mean you planted a tree?
27:17
>> Yeah. But also think about it in terms
27:19
of this. Um, as as much as we think of
27:22
the Titan as like the prime movers of
27:25
things, the pantheon of death in
27:27
Shadowlands shows us that in some ways
27:30
even beings on that level of power are
27:34
ultimately working towards something
27:37
someone else came up with.
27:38
>> Yeah,
27:39
>> the first ones created the the blueprint
27:42
for reality and we've seen at least one
27:44
member of the pantheon of death reject
27:46
it. We don't know how closely Amanthul
27:50
is hewing to the plan originally vouched
27:53
safe to him and his people versus how
27:56
much was maybe no one told him what he
27:59
was supposed to be doing and so he's
28:01
been making it up. uh the the point you
28:03
made in your thing about what if what if
28:06
Aloon is a is a world soul who wasn't
28:10
you know reached by Amenthul Amenthul
28:13
was a world spirit you know world soul
28:15
that wasn't reached by Amenthul
28:18
>> if if a if a world soul has a look that
28:22
you get when it's not in any way shape
28:24
or form interfered with by anybody else
28:27
that would be Amenthul
28:28
>> but that's according to Amenthul
28:30
>> well yeah according to Amenthul but just
28:32
fight for now. Go with it. Y
28:33
>> that would mean that Amenthul had to
28:35
come up with his own rules when he came
28:38
into full existence and it's
28:41
>> then he imposed them on everybody else
28:43
that he awoke. He he help guided them.
28:48
Nobody did that for him. So maybe he
28:50
can't conceive of a different way to do
28:53
it than the way he did it because that's
28:55
the only way he can imagine because it's
28:58
the only way he's ever actually
29:00
experienced. You know, in a weird sort
29:02
of way, Alan Thu's the kind of guy you
29:04
can imagine saying my way of the highway
29:06
to people he knows don't can't get to
29:08
the highway. You know, there's no escape
29:12
from this for people. uh in a in a weird
29:14
sort of way, Sargeras becomes the first
29:18
one who was reached by Amenthul here and
29:22
therefore his rebellion is the first guy
29:27
Amanthul taught anything to saying wait
29:29
a minute you never told me about any of
29:31
this weird crap you know I I don't think
29:34
you know what you're doing you know and
29:38
that whole thing we constantly focus on
29:40
about how crazy Sargeras is but we don't
29:42
focus much on how crazy Amadul was after
29:45
the first person he ever befriended and
29:48
helped that told him to f off.
29:51
>> Mhm.
29:51
>> You know, Sargeras walked in and was
29:53
like, "Nope, not listening to you guys.
29:55
Going to destroy everything." And just
29:58
again, you got this, if you think of
29:59
Amos as the HOA, you know, president
30:02
Sargeras becomes the the the gopher the
30:05
the gopher hunting caddy from Catty
30:07
Shack, you know, he's destroying
30:09
everything. He's just mowing down lawns.
30:12
He's blowing up shrubs. He cannot stand
30:15
the idea that those groundhogs might get
30:17
into anyone's yard. And he has decided
30:20
to destroy their yards, all yards. He
30:22
will destroy every yard until there are
30:24
no yards that they can those golfers can
30:26
get into because if he doesn't do this,
30:29
the golfers will win. And you have Amul
30:31
OVER THERE GOING, "NO,
30:34
Milar
30:37
used atom bombs instead of dynamite
30:39
>> or giant swords.
30:42
Now, there's a second part to this
30:43
question that I want to kind of get to
30:44
because I think we're going to have a
30:45
little bit of more interesting
30:46
discussion here. Not that the first part
30:49
wasn't uh Amthul and his hoa with his
30:51
popped collar from his polo shirt and
30:53
all. Um the part about the void spy
30:56
reminding you of a Naru uh and then
30:59
asking the question, could the Naru be
31:01
originally have been from the void that
31:03
were then charged to the light? So, this
31:06
is one of those things where there's a
31:08
theme here in this question that is
31:10
actually present in Midnight. Not going
31:12
to get into many specifics because it is
31:14
very important to the campaign, but this
31:18
is a question that's been asked a lot of
31:20
times in World of Warcraft in general
31:22
where the balance of light and dark ever
31:25
since we first learned that Naru could
31:28
become dark Naru. Why are they able to
31:31
become dark Naru? Why are they able to
31:33
essentially become void creatures,
31:37
right? Like they they're not they they
31:39
seem to have complete absence of the
31:42
light in those moments, completely
31:44
change their personalities. Their power
31:46
becomes exponentially more destructive
31:49
in these moments. How is that possible?
31:52
And we also know going back to
31:56
Shadowlands here, if you remember your
31:57
Revendreth lore, the Naru waged war on
32:01
Revendreth. The Naru blew up a lot of
32:04
Revendrreth, but not before one of them
32:06
got captured. And when we save that
32:10
Naru, what is the one thing we learn
32:12
about it? the experiments and torture
32:16
and alterations that have been made by
32:19
the denisens of Revendrreth under Sire
32:22
Denathrius's uh control have altered the
32:26
Naru in such a way that their own people
32:29
would not take them back. Now, Matt and
32:32
I have often talked about that this
32:33
these are all supporting points that
32:35
mean that the Naru are malleable in some
32:39
form. Whether they are essentially
32:41
resonant creatures is I think what we
32:43
refer to them as. That sort of they can
32:47
conduct energy and bond with it in a way
32:51
that few other living creatures can. And
32:54
as a result of that, they can be altered
32:57
by that because it's essentially a core
32:59
facet of them. We've talked about this
33:01
in relation to Aexus crystals, an Omi
33:04
crystals. Uh we've talked about this
33:06
with the original crystals uh that Velon
33:08
and and them were as well that there
33:10
seems to be this connection there where
33:13
we see these items uh and the dragon
33:16
soul for for God's sake um can alter
33:19
what they are and what they do based off
33:22
of the energy poured into them. They
33:24
essentially become super conduits. There
33:27
is a relation between the void and the
33:30
naru that we do not fully understand
33:34
yet. It is slowly coming into focus a
33:38
little bit more in Midnight. It is not
33:41
completely answered, but we do get some
33:44
of these burning questions uh not
33:47
necessarily answered, but clarified a
33:50
little bit. They start to zero into it.
33:52
>> Addressed would be
33:53
>> Yeah. Um,
33:54
>> I I also want to throw in something
33:55
while we're talking about this,
33:57
>> please. Absolutely.
33:58
>> If we're talking about crystals and
33:59
we're talking about throwing energy at
34:01
them and seeing what happens, I refer us
34:04
once again to the creation of Ashbringer
34:07
where we had some orc necromancer or
34:10
warlock or something invaded Azeroth
34:13
along with the rest of his brothers. And
34:16
when he met Alexandros uh for the first
34:20
time,
34:21
>> Mrain.
34:22
>> Yeah, Mograin. Sorry, but Alexander
34:24
Smorg uh he basically destroyed his hand
34:29
after he killed the necromancer. He
34:31
tries to pick up the crystal he was
34:32
using to summon things and it destroys
34:35
his hand.
34:36
>> The energy in it, the the the dark
34:39
shifting seething energy in it destroys
34:41
his hand. He brings it back. Um T got
34:44
Taran Mill. Is it not Taran Mill?
34:46
>> Taran Mill.
34:48
>> Yeah. Okay. Uh he brings it back to
34:50
there. I thought it was like the other
34:52
town.
34:52
>> Nope, it's the it's the town at the base
34:54
of Tarnville.
34:56
>> Okay. He So, he goes to he goes there.
34:58
He um brings it to a bunch of other
35:01
members of various palent orders,
35:03
including our um our old friend Satan
35:06
Daffhon, who will come up later maybe,
35:08
but you know, trust me, he he is
35:10
somebody we should remember.
35:11
>> Sorry. Southore. Southshore.
35:13
>> Southshore. Southshore is the Alliance
35:14
town. Tamils is the town.
35:16
>> But at the time, they were both just
35:19
human towns.
35:19
>> Yeah. Um he people there including like
35:23
the original high general Abendis, the
35:25
father of Breijgendis and you know um
35:29
Satan Drathan I believe um they
35:33
basically start arguing about what this
35:35
thing is and finally Abendis is fed up
35:39
with the discussion. He goes let's just
35:41
destroy it and he hits it with the light
35:43
and it starts to quiver and so they all
35:46
start hitting it with the light. It
35:48
doesn't get destroyed. It turns into a
35:50
gigantic beacon of the light. This
35:52
crystal is now resonating with the light
35:55
and giving off the light. And he takes,
35:58
you know, when he attempts to touch it,
35:59
Morain touches it. It heals him the same
36:03
way the previously it destroyed his
36:05
hand. It now regrows his hand and he
36:08
takes it to Iron Forge. at the time. Um,
36:12
Magny is heartbroken over the death of
36:14
his brother, although he turned out not
36:16
to be dead. But anyway, he makes for
36:20
Mograin the blade that we call Ashbrer.
36:23
And eventually we call Mograin Ashbrer
36:25
because of him using it to turn entire,
36:27
you know, swaths of undead into ashes.
36:30
That crystal, we don't know what it is
36:33
to this day. We don't know what that
36:35
crystal was. It could have been one of
36:37
the anomi crystals. It could have been
36:39
an Aexus crystal. We all we know is that
36:42
that orc necrolyte brought it with him
36:44
and it was completely charged with the
36:46
void and he was using it alongside the
36:50
invading forces which were again not
36:53
they were not void. They were slaves to
36:55
the burning legion not to the void. Why
36:58
did he have a void crystal? Where did he
37:00
get it? Was it void when he got it? If
37:03
you think about that idea that this
37:05
crystal was possibly one of the atomi
37:08
crystals, the atomite crystals all came
37:10
from the original crystal that broke
37:12
into fragments during the draani flight
37:16
from what is you know Argus their home
37:18
world when they they were also um Manari
37:21
that was their original name. Each of
37:22
those crystals shows a different
37:24
resonance. Like the leaf shadow, the one
37:27
that we think of as so important because
37:28
it's the one that was actually hiding an
37:30
entire city from the from the horde.
37:33
Leaf shadow resonated with nature in a
37:36
weird sort of way. The atomic crystals
37:37
are like crystals that if you look at
37:39
them as a matrix. They were originally
37:42
one crystal and then they broke apart
37:44
into all these different crystals each
37:46
to one form of of energy or power that
37:50
associates with one of the points on the
37:53
for lack of a better word cosmic compass
37:55
that we see in both the original
37:58
>> um chronicle and the chronicle the what
38:00
was it the one the shadow called
38:02
>> grimoir of the shadowlands which
38:04
reverses it and that's to show us that
38:06
it can be viewed from different angles.
38:08
I find myself wondering if the Naru if
38:11
it if that that's what happens with a
38:13
Naru.
38:14
>> Yeah. Like we know that a Naru can have
38:16
its core effectively almost destroyed
38:18
and then it can be basically regrown
38:21
from from just a piece of it.
38:23
>> Yeah. And the the interesting thing
38:24
about that and I'm I want to let Eric
38:26
talk in a moment and this is something
38:27
I've been thinking about recently too.
38:29
Same thing, right? like going that same
38:31
rabbit hole as you there, Matt, where
38:33
it's like, what if the Naru were all
38:36
part of one originally large thing,
38:40
right? One large structure, one large
38:42
entity. It's a theme or, and I hate to
38:45
call it a trope, but it's something
38:46
we've seen Blizzard storytellers do for
38:49
a lot of their other games as well. A
38:51
gigantic
38:52
>> is a Drayor.
38:53
>> They did it in Draanor. They did it in
38:55
Diablo. They've like they've established
38:57
this uh even in Starcraft if you want to
39:01
talk about the actual Yeah. the Zerg,
39:03
right? Like the the Zurg and the Protos
39:05
were originally one entity. They were
39:08
one cosmic being that then split. Like
39:11
this is something Blizzard likes to go
39:13
back to the well on pretty frequently
39:15
and it makes certain sense in the story.
39:18
So had the Naru existed as a larger
39:22
cosmic entity before that fully
39:24
resonated with all aspects of the
39:27
universe, maybe. And and this is nothing
39:31
to support this. Uh but maybe the Naru
39:35
are the resultant last pieces of
39:38
whatever happened to the first ones.
39:40
>> You know what? This makes me think.
39:42
>> Go ahead. We know that only a prime Naru
39:46
is supposed to be able to awaken those
39:50
Naru that come in descent from below,
39:53
you know, the ones that descend from it.
39:55
>> Mhm.
39:56
>> And we know that when we were trying to
39:59
save Zera, we used a tier of Aloon to
40:04
reawaken her core.
40:05
>> Uhhuh.
40:06
>> So that we could communicate with it.
40:08
What if the reason that the tears of
40:10
Aloon are crystalline structures and the
40:14
reason that the Naru, who are apparently
40:16
in some way related to her, are
40:18
crystalline structures is because Aloon
40:21
was a giant crystalline structure that
40:25
deliberately broke herself up
40:27
>> to be in multiple places at once.
40:29
>> Or she's just naturally distributed.
40:33
>> Now you're talking about Eloon and Naru
40:35
being a hive mind. No, just a naturally
40:39
distributed entity.
40:41
>> Like, think of it this way, not a hive
40:43
mind. They don't when fully connected,
40:45
they all communicate with each other.
40:47
>> But yeah, but they're individual and
40:48
distinct personalities, right? They have
40:50
they have to make a conscious effort to
40:51
talk to each other.
40:52
>> Yeah. And more importantly, when they're
40:55
all like, think of I'm going to use an
40:57
example I think works pretty well for
40:58
this. uh the GU in in Mass Effect
41:03
>> when the GU are independent, you know,
41:06
in a in, you know, just a just a few
41:08
dozen GU subutines in a GU body doing
41:13
stuff not fully connected to the rest of
41:15
the group. They're kind of dumb because
41:18
there's only like a few dozen subutines
41:20
in that body. It's pretty easy to to
41:22
kill it. Legion had 1,100 and something
41:25
subutines, which is why Legion was
41:27
fairly autonomous. Mhm.
41:28
>> The full GU collective is not a hive
41:32
mind. It's a consensus because they can
41:35
think faster, communicate faster. Democ
41:39
total democracy is possible for them
41:42
because they have the time to do it.
41:44
Like a billionth of a second is enough
41:46
time for them to come to consensus.
41:48
Whereas for us that would be almost
41:50
impossible. And so Eloon could just be
41:54
the biggest part of the consensus. What
41:58
we call Aloon might just be the
42:00
personality that is the the one that
42:04
essentially clones itself to create
42:07
these subgroups. But the subgroups
42:09
aren't they're not as full as her
42:12
because she herself is many millions of
42:16
consciousnesses all communicating
42:19
together
42:20
>> whereas they are divorced from it. Not
42:23
cut out, but it's like if you send the
42:25
Voyager probe into space, it cannot
42:28
communicate with the full amount of
42:31
Earth's electromagnetic communications
42:33
power. It it's it's a it's a little
42:35
drone out there in the middle of
42:37
nowhere. It takes like several days for
42:40
its signals to get back.
42:42
>> Yeah. The going that going going down Go
42:44
ahead. I was gonna say going going down
42:45
that route also makes me think of like
42:47
the King and Black stuff with the
42:49
symbiots and Marvel where they're
42:52
they're kind like you said they're not a
42:54
hive mind per se. They are a consensus
42:57
tied back to a single personality,
43:01
right? Where like
43:01
>> but if they're cut off long enough they
43:03
start developing their own personalities
43:05
cuz they have to.
43:06
>> Yeah. The the
43:07
do that. Yeah. Right. Like it's just how
43:09
they are. They they are they're they're
43:12
both tied to each other but individuals.
43:15
So it's there there is potentially
43:17
something there. And this is not us
43:18
saying that Aloon is a Naru. I still
43:21
>> I have no idea.
43:22
>> I still think that Aloon is not
43:24
necessarily a Naru. Her relation to the
43:27
Naru, she may be the progenitor of the
43:30
Naru and as a result of that they are
43:32
all sort of splinters of her. But
43:35
>> look at it this way. An orc is not
43:37
Grond, the giant mountain monster that
43:40
became all the things that are like
43:43
walking around with two legs on Dranor.
43:46
Like they all descend back, you know,
43:48
from orcs to ogres, from ogres to ogr,
43:51
from ogr, you know, going back until you
43:53
hit the GR and the Magaron and finally
43:57
Grond. But they're all descended from
44:00
GR, but they're all of Grond. Well, then
44:02
the reason I and the reason that I think
44:04
this makes a little bit of sense too is
44:07
or potentially makes sense uh is that
44:11
Aloon has a dark side. We saw this with
44:16
the night warrior. What is Tonda
44:20
channeling when she's in night warrior
44:22
mode? Cuz it sure isn't sunlight. It's
44:25
the pale, cold, burning moonlight that
44:29
happens during like an eclipse. It is
44:33
very like, go back and watch the scenes.
44:35
Go back and watch the uh the animations
44:38
and the cut scenes involving the night
44:39
warrior. There's a reason her eyes are
44:42
black. There's a reason that everything
44:44
Tonda is doing as the night warrior
44:46
feels extraordinarily void adjacent. And
44:51
it's because it's a a resonant power.
44:54
And again, the light and the void are
44:57
two sides of the same coin. We know
44:59
this. We know that this has been
45:01
established in lore from the very
45:04
beginning. And it's one of the few
45:06
things that hasn't changed since the
45:08
light and the void have been introduced.
45:10
There's a reason why Sargeras in order
45:14
to like fight the void and light didn't
45:18
wield one against the other. He saw it
45:21
fell the absolute destruction of both.
45:25
Like that is not a mistake, right? That
45:28
is
45:29
>> and think about this too. We're talking
45:31
about Aloon here. We're talking about
45:32
what Aloon's relationship to Naru is.
45:35
Let's look at the fact that Aloon can
45:37
simultaneously call down strikes of
45:40
white hot, you know, light, the light,
45:42
and blanket an entire moon in permanent
45:46
eclipse. The the chosen warrior of Aloon
45:48
is the night warrior. And what is the
45:50
night warrior doing? The night warrior
45:52
is very void.
45:54
>> The light warrior the the night warrior
45:55
is extinguishing light.
45:57
>> Yep. And that's where fell comes from
45:59
again cuz what do you extinguish light
46:01
with? The void. And what happens to the
46:04
void when you do that? It gets
46:06
destroyed.
46:07
>> Mhm.
46:07
>> There's there is a very the fact that
46:10
we've never actually seen a fell side to
46:14
does not mean there isn't one.
46:15
>> Yeah. Eric, I want to give you a chance
46:17
to talk because we've been going on. So,
46:19
I apologize.
46:19
>> We're doing that thing we do, man.
46:22
>> No, I like I like I like all of this
46:25
question because it kind of gets at, you
46:27
know, flipping things on their head like
46:29
we just assume that the Naru are
46:31
creatures of the light and that when we
46:33
drain off the light, they go into this
46:35
state. But what if they started as
46:38
creatures of the void and something
46:40
charged them with that light and then
46:42
once that light sh runs out or gets
46:45
siphoned away, then they revert back to
46:47
what they originally were. Um, and we
46:50
did we don't know what we we still don't
46:53
know what a lot of these things are. The
46:55
true nature of uh Naru, the true nature
46:59
of Aloon. I think that's maybe the most
47:02
fascinating thing because Aloon predates
47:04
World of Warcraft. There's references to
47:06
Aloon in Warcraft 3. So that's been 24
47:10
years that we still don't know what this
47:14
godlike entity is. So that we're still
47:18
talking about it after this far this
47:19
much, but we might actually get answers.
47:22
I mean, these these are the kind of
47:23
things that might get answered in an
47:24
expansion called Midnight.
47:26
>> Yeah. Yeah, and I think we're already
47:28
starting to see shades of it, too,
47:29
because there's other entities that are
47:30
sort of in this mix, and I'll bring them
47:32
up here because I think it's kind of
47:33
important to talk about, you know, that
47:35
Lethraxian is involved because warriors
47:38
of the light, the light forged, the army
47:40
of the light are present in this
47:41
expansion. That is a given. We know
47:44
this. We've known this for, you know,
47:45
several months before the expansion. And
47:48
what is Lethraxian? He is an entity
47:50
created in the Shadowlands by Sire
47:54
Denathrius with a very specific purpose
47:57
that has fully embraced the light into
47:59
himself and become an a conduit for it.
48:02
He has been altered and reforged by the
48:05
light. Telion, a mortal, a human mortal,
48:09
was reforged by the light to become
48:12
light forged. The Janai that have
48:14
accepted this have all done so as well.
48:17
They are not the same entity as they
48:19
were before. They have been altered by
48:20
channeling this power through them.
48:22
However, that means that there is the
48:25
potential for them to do this with other
48:28
power as well. The same goes for the
48:30
Naru. If a Naru is completely drained of
48:32
the light and becomes a void entity,
48:34
what happens if you take, I don't know,
48:37
the wild plains, the the the dimension
48:39
of all wild magic and wild power and
48:42
chaos that that Aloon uh is definitely
48:46
next to uh that Anrar definitely hailed
48:49
from and was most attuned to and that we
48:52
think that the wild gods and technically
48:54
the emerald dream butt up against. What
48:57
happens if you take that power, that
48:59
energy unfiltered, and power it into a
49:01
naru core? Do you get a plant naru? Do
49:04
you get something that is so absolutely
49:08
fused by that life energy that it
49:10
becomes like the uh the batani on
49:14
Drraanor that become like that, which
49:16
again, themes of this, hints of this are
49:20
dealt with in the midnight expansion.
49:22
And I highly encourage you to keep your
49:24
eyes open as you're doing this stuff and
49:25
you'll see what we're talking about. Uh
49:28
what happens if you do this with uh not
49:30
just void or that with fire, with water,
49:34
with any of these things that we know
49:36
have a cosmic presence, a cosmic power
49:39
footprint. Can they resonate with it?
49:42
Can from going back to what Matt talked
49:44
about with the the like the the leaf
49:46
blade and all the other different
49:48
crystals like I would say yes. there's a
49:51
very good possibility and that it just
49:53
so happens that we keep charging them
49:56
back up with the light because we as
49:59
entities with limited cosmic
50:01
understanding
50:03
only understand that you use the light
50:05
to fight void but it's not necessarily
50:08
the case and I think that's one of the
50:11
most fascinating parts about it
50:14
because the Naru in a lot of ways in a
50:17
way that the light and order and almond
50:19
fool would absolutely absolutely hate
50:21
almost have infinite potential here. If
50:24
they can channel and resonate with any
50:26
energy, the Naru contain multitude. We
50:30
potentially are the ones that keep
50:32
forcing the light back into them and
50:34
keeping them on this weird cycle and
50:36
path. Which man, wouldn't that be a real
50:39
kick in the pants if Aloon comes back
50:41
and says, "What did you do to my
50:42
children? What did you do?"
50:44
>> Here's a weird thing to say about that
50:46
then. Why do Naru draw souls to them?
50:50
>> You mean which might tie into our next
50:53
question.
50:54
>> Yeah, I think that is in fact what you
50:56
should probably be talking about.
50:57
>> Yeah,
50:58
>> because it is something to think about.
50:59
>> Yeah. So, I'm going to go ahead and and
51:00
get this next one here uh from Alex,
51:03
which thanks for sending this in. What
51:05
actually is? Is it the residual energy
51:07
from an ND's life, or is it a base part
51:09
of the universe's design? Is it possibly
51:12
both? the first one's own experience
51:14
infusing the energy that would fuel all
51:16
life to come. Is it what mistw weavers
51:18
use? Um, technically it's what all
51:20
healers use uh in a a sort of way except
51:23
for
51:23
>> it's what all spellcasters use.
51:24
>> It's what all spellcasters use, what all
51:26
druids use when they shapeshift. But
51:28
Matt, would you like to talk about the
51:30
the core idea of?
51:32
>> Well, there's also we have to point out
51:35
that there is some things that are
51:36
ambiguous or not fully explored. One of
51:40
them is did we seema in M of because at
51:45
the time people who worked at Blizzard
51:47
said no thema that you see in M of used
51:52
by the mou is not the same
51:56
as we see in Shadowlands. Those people
51:59
don't work there anymore.
52:00
>> Also,
52:00
>> and so I was gonna say also uh it was
52:04
sort of a noncumental answer during a
52:06
BlizzCon, so you know. Yeah. Yeah. So,
52:10
never never believe anything till you
52:12
see it in the game and even then be
52:13
convinced that the next expansion could
52:15
change it. Um, in terms of what is in
52:19
its most fundamental state in
52:20
Shadowlands, is revealed to us as the
52:24
energy slash substance that creates all
52:29
existence. And the entire purpose of the
52:31
shadowlands is for thema that powers and
52:35
in you know abides in mortal beings upon
52:39
their deaths that is channeled back to
52:42
the shadowlands along with the souls of
52:45
the beings that died. The souls are
52:47
removed and placed in one of the
52:49
Shadowlands to exist indefinitely
52:53
while the is essentially filtered
52:56
through one of the various realms of the
52:58
Shadowlands. And there's more than five
53:01
there. There's a whole bunch of them.
53:03
And then that is basically channeled
53:06
back through places like the winter
53:08
queen's realm, Ardan wield into
53:11
existence alongside beings that are
53:14
intended to keep be part of a cycle of
53:18
resurrection of rebirth. Um, for
53:20
example, uh, we were supposed to get
53:22
Ersoch back.
53:23
>> Mhm.
53:23
>> Uh, doesn't we don't know if we'll ever
53:25
get that now because they he didn't get
53:27
the he needed. So his his existence
53:30
might be gone forever. But that's the
53:32
basic premise of Anma. Anima is both the
53:35
building blocks of and the resource that
53:38
sustains everything all the entire
53:42
universe above and below all the the
53:45
slower universes all smaller and not
53:47
slower. Um everything from the
53:49
Shadowlands to you know the the realm of
53:51
the light to you know even Fel is
53:55
ultimately sustained and created byma.
53:58
It's it's sort of like saying well how
54:00
can that be? How can one little thing be
54:02
ma be making up everything? Uh look at
54:05
subatomic particles. You know, the
54:07
proper combination of subatomic
54:08
particles. Ultimately, it all goes down
54:10
to quirks. Everything is made of quirks.
54:12
>> Mhm.
54:13
>> Everything is powered by quirks. It's
54:14
all quirks. Uh but that's that's a level
54:17
of granularity that most of us don't
54:19
see. In the in the Warcraft cosmology,
54:22
you don't see the you see all the things
54:25
that makes and all the things that
54:28
powers, but you don't see the itself.
54:31
It's usually not seen by mortal beings.
54:33
It's but it's so important that even
54:36
shaman named it an element.
54:38
>> Mhm.
54:39
>> Uh the spirit that you hear about when
54:41
shaman talk about the fifth element,
54:44
that's the
54:45
>> we know that. We know that for a fact
54:46
because when we're summoning our
54:48
ancestors, if you are a farseer and a
54:50
healer,
54:51
>> you're summoning essentially their using
54:54
their to pull them from the shadowlands
54:57
to assist you in your healing endeavors.
55:00
We know that that's what it is.
55:02
>> Yeah. Thema is linked to them and
55:04
therefore the resonance of it allows
55:06
them to be present for a moment. But as
55:10
a result of this, because it is so
55:13
fundamental and important, it its
55:15
creation and its destruction
55:18
affect reality on a, you know, on every
55:21
scale from the from the most minute to
55:23
the the most cosmic. And with that comes
55:27
the fact that it is it's used in every
55:29
way you asked. like every everything
55:32
from a a spellcaster throwing like fire
55:34
at someone to, you know, a druid
55:38
somewhere, using their power to like,
55:40
you know, return a tree to balance to a
55:42
shaman calling their ancestor forth to a
55:45
death knight raising the dead and using
55:49
their shambling corpses as, you know,
55:51
battering rams and shock troops,
55:53
>> which is why death knights refer to it
55:54
as an exhausting experience. Yeah, it's
55:57
all and you arema when you when your
56:02
character dies, the reason you get to
56:04
come back is actually explained in game
56:06
as a subgroup of Kyrion who are not
56:09
doing their jobs. Instead, they are
56:12
returning your your character's soul
56:13
back to its body over and over again
56:16
because you have to be here. There is a
56:18
thing your character has to do to keep
56:21
this whole train going. And that's why
56:24
they keep going, "Nope, you're going
56:25
right back into that body. Nope, no,
56:27
you're not going anywhere. I don't care
56:28
how many times you let that know rip
56:30
your head off. I'm putting you back. I'm
56:32
gonna get in so much trouble." You know,
56:35
so
56:36
is fundamental to the game, to the to
56:39
the existence of everything in the in
56:40
the Warcraft.
56:41
>> Yep. So, do we think it is a a natural
56:45
entity or do we think that the first
56:47
ones designed the universe to have thema
56:51
be what the currency what everything
56:54
runs on?
56:55
>> I
56:56
>> Let me put you this way. Oh, you go
56:57
ahead. You go ahead. I've been talking
56:58
for a while. You talk. In response to
57:01
that, I I personally based off of what
57:04
we know from Zerith Mortise and from
57:07
learning not necessarily what the first
57:09
ones are because we have no idea, but
57:11
going in the separ learning that the
57:13
worlds are linked, learning that there's
57:15
a a tunnel between all the realms, uh
57:18
that there's points that we do not fully
57:20
understand, possibly strewn throughout
57:22
the cosmos. Um, my guess is thatma is by
57:27
design. Thatma is tied to the first
57:30
ones. Whether it is a piece of
57:32
themselves that they then, you know,
57:34
parted out and let it blossom like a uh,
57:38
you know, asexual amoeba like parting
57:41
itself. Um, or maybe it was just
57:45
something that they figured out how to
57:47
do. Um, we don't know. We know that the
57:50
first ones are apparently heralded as
57:54
creators of the universe. We don't know
57:55
that for a fact. Um, again, for a while
57:58
we thought titans were gods. Uh, then we
58:01
learned that titans were not gods. They
58:03
were just very large cosmic entities.
58:05
Then we, you know, learned that there
58:06
were things above uh potentially even
58:09
the titans in the first ones. We don't
58:11
know if this is a uh to make a Rick and
58:14
Morty reference if this is the Rick
58:16
Sanchez car battery all the way down
58:19
where it's like different like he
58:21
created a civilization inside of the car
58:23
battery to fuel the car and then that
58:26
civilization created a civilization
58:27
inside of uh another thing a power plant
58:30
to power the battery for their god and
58:33
then so on and so forth. We don't know
58:34
how many layers there are to reality
58:36
here. We we assume that we are at the
58:39
top layer. Um, we're probably not. Uh,
58:42
but yeah, it feels like deliberate. It
58:47
feels because of what it does, because
58:49
the universe that we exist in is
58:52
comprised of it, and because it exists
58:54
in the other realms that we have
58:56
traveled through, like the other plains
58:58
of existence, for lack of a better term.
59:01
It feels like this was a deliberate
59:03
choice, not necessarily a natural cosmic
59:06
choice. But I could also be very wrong.
59:09
That's just my my two cents on it.
59:10
>> What I'm kind of starting to look at way
59:13
to look at it um is is this one which is
59:15
simpler. If you build a program in your
59:19
computer that can simulate the Earth and
59:22
the orbit of the planets and all that
59:24
stuff, it's ultimately all running on
59:26
electricity, right?
59:27
>> Mhm.
59:29
>> But the electricity actually comes from
59:31
outside the computer. And we do still
59:34
use electricity in the world that we're
59:35
currently in. Except what if that's a
59:38
simulation? Then they would still be
59:40
using electricity that comes from
59:41
outside and all of our electricity is
59:44
converted something else, usually
59:46
sunlight. Uh cuz either it's from things
59:49
that used photosynthesis or things that
59:52
ate things that used photosynthesis who
59:55
then died and got crushed down into
59:57
carbon that was then burnable because it
59:59
was from these things that it all ends
1:00:02
up being from one or other light power
1:00:05
source in this reality into the
1:00:08
simulation. But the simulation would do
1:00:09
the same thing. And ultimately it's, you
1:00:12
know, it's to the you kind of have a
1:00:14
combination of the turtles all the way
1:00:16
down idea
1:00:17
>> and the fact that just because
1:00:21
the first ones doesn't mean that if we
1:00:23
assume the first ones were the first
1:00:25
ones that didn't already exist. It might
1:00:28
just have been completely different.
1:00:30
Like I'm going to use an example from a
1:00:33
game I've been playing a lot. Uh the
1:00:35
Pillars of Eternities games and I'm not
1:00:36
going to go into Avowed, but I'm talking
1:00:38
about the Pillars of Eternity games.
1:00:39
They have a substance called Audra,
1:00:41
which is apparently the conduit through
1:00:43
which all life energy passes. It's when
1:00:46
you die, you go in there and you're put
1:00:48
on the wheel of resurrection. In the
1:00:50
second game, and I know spoilers, but
1:00:51
the game count like 2010, guys, um it's
1:00:55
revealed that the wheel that has created
1:00:57
reincarnation is an edifice built on top
1:01:00
of the original way things were done.
1:01:02
And it's destroyed by a god named Athos
1:01:06
because he thinks it is a corruption.
1:01:08
Everything the first one's done
1:01:10
ultimately seems to have been an edifice
1:01:12
to create a reality that could fight
1:01:15
forces from outside existence, forces
1:01:18
that devourma.
1:01:20
And if that is the case, then has to be
1:01:23
present beyond our the the player
1:01:26
character version of existence.
1:01:28
>> Mhm.
1:01:29
>> The Warcraft cosmos has to basically be
1:01:31
built on top of an edifice of of because
1:01:34
that's the thing that it's being
1:01:36
designed to protect. if that makes
1:01:38
sense. You wouldn't build an edifice to
1:01:39
protect something you had to invent to
1:01:42
make the edifice exist in the first
1:01:43
place. Right.
1:01:44
>> So that's something to keep in mind.
1:01:45
>> You had something there. I want to hear
1:01:46
what you had to say.
1:01:47
>> Yeah. What I'm what I'm kind of starting
1:01:48
to think about is the thema is kind of
1:01:52
like the lived experiences of of living
1:01:55
beings. The great beings who have
1:01:58
experienced a lot of things have more
1:02:00
that gets transported to the
1:02:02
Shadowlands.
1:02:03
And if the whole universe is set up as
1:02:06
just a way for like the cosmic forces
1:02:09
and everything, just a way for living
1:02:11
things on different planets to senda
1:02:15
and get them to have conflicts and have
1:02:17
great memories and things like that just
1:02:19
to to send it there. It seems like that
1:02:21
might be what the first ones wanted all
1:02:25
along. I mean the and everybody who
1:02:27
said, "Oh, I see the I see the plan. I'm
1:02:29
not telling you what the big plan is,
1:02:30
but I have to interrupt it." the jailer
1:02:32
saying, "You don't know what's coming.
1:02:34
You don't know what what it is." Could
1:02:36
it be that everything has just been set
1:02:38
up this way to channelma into the
1:02:42
Shadowlands for for some reason that we
1:02:44
don't know yet?
1:02:45
>> All right. Anything else we want to add
1:02:47
to that? I thank you very much for the
1:02:49
question, Alex. Uh I think it ties into
1:02:52
this because I mean, again, maybe we
1:02:54
talk a couple minutes here about what
1:02:57
could potentially happen with Anaru
1:02:58
because I think that's where Matt was
1:02:59
going originally. I basically have a lot
1:03:01
of ideas about that in terms of the Naru
1:03:04
might exist as essentially anima takes
1:03:07
the form of everything, right?
1:03:09
Everything's made out of. What if you
1:03:11
had a being of purema?
1:03:13
>> Mhm.
1:03:14
>> It it could hold anything. It's it's
1:03:16
it's kind of like imagining you need to
1:03:19
work with the forces of existence, but
1:03:23
you don't want to interact with them
1:03:25
yourself. Maybe you can't. Maybe you're
1:03:27
not going to be there. Maybe you just
1:03:29
don't want to be exposed to them because
1:03:32
much like somebody working with highly
1:03:34
radioactive material, if you just stick
1:03:36
your hand in and grab it, it will kill
1:03:38
you. You know, there's a reason that the
1:03:39
first ones have a giant tomb. You know,
1:03:43
it it it's it feels like they designed
1:03:46
it. They already knew they'd be dead
1:03:48
when all this started. So, think about
1:03:52
it in terms of a box with Waldo. You
1:03:54
stick your hands in and you you robot
1:03:56
the you have robot hands that you
1:03:58
control with your own hands to keep you
1:04:00
from ever having to touch these
1:04:01
substances. Maybe the stuff that makes
1:04:04
up physical reality in the Warcraft
1:04:05
cosmos is fundamentally toxic in much
1:04:09
the same way as that elements that are
1:04:12
created on the periodic table, the
1:04:13
higher up you go, the more unstable and
1:04:15
dangerous they are to living things.
1:04:18
>> That's a whole mood for my existence.
1:04:19
>> Existence. Yeah. What?
1:04:21
>> So that's a whole mood for my existence.
1:04:23
Yeah. And imagine the first ones are
1:04:25
creating a reality that can stand up to
1:04:28
things that eata. They need things that
1:04:30
are toxic to things that eata. It's all
1:04:33
still running on, but it's more
1:04:35
complicated. It's got more parts to it.
1:04:38
You concentrate more matter into
1:04:40
something, you concentrate like higher
1:04:43
and higher atomic numbers, the thing
1:04:45
becomes unstable and begins irradiating
1:04:48
everything around it. you concentrate
1:04:50
enough reality, enough anima into living
1:04:52
things, they start becoming gods. Like
1:04:56
look at the, you know, it's turtles all
1:04:58
the way down, but it's also turtles all
1:04:59
the way up.
1:05:00
>> Yeah.
1:05:00
>> Maybe there, you know, you start seeing
1:05:03
these beings exist that can literally
1:05:05
kill a Titan and send its soul into the,
1:05:09
you know, Shadowlands. That's not
1:05:11
supposed to be possible, but we did it.
1:05:13
So pos, you know, there's no way
1:05:15
anything could possibly kill the
1:05:16
devourers except these weird things.
1:05:19
Don't touch them. They'll they'll rot
1:05:21
you away from within. You know, it's
1:05:24
just something I've been thinking about
1:05:25
in terms of like the Naru as Naru is
1:05:27
effectively timelapse Waldos where
1:05:30
they'll do the work for you and they can
1:05:33
handle being anything, but they don't,
1:05:36
you know, they won't be getting any
1:05:37
feedback because they're acting on a
1:05:40
program just like everything else around
1:05:41
them. Mhm. Eric, any parting thoughts?
1:05:44
>> Uh, yeah, the it it seems like their
1:05:47
pantheons kind of have that tier to them
1:05:50
depending on which one we're talking
1:05:51
about. Like we know the Titans had the
1:05:54
keepers and then had they, you know,
1:05:56
they make they make smaller servants who
1:05:58
make smaller servants to help them. And
1:06:00
it seems like that's a little bit what
1:06:01
you're getting at with I can't do this
1:06:04
on my own. Not because I don't have the
1:06:06
time and I'm needed elsewhere, but
1:06:08
because this this I can't enter this
1:06:11
plane maybe like the void lords or
1:06:13
because this thing is toxic to me or
1:06:15
this this this thing I can't interact
1:06:17
with physically. So I it's it's just
1:06:21
much more complicated that we don't just
1:06:23
have a universe with planets and and
1:06:26
powerful entities going back and forth.
1:06:28
We have all these different realms,
1:06:29
these different dimensions going back
1:06:30
and forth. And we seem to be able to
1:06:33
exist on lots of different planes of
1:06:35
existence, but other entities that are
1:06:37
much more powerful than us can't and
1:06:40
have to stay on their own or struggle to
1:06:42
go from one to the other. So, it seems
1:06:45
like again something special about us,
1:06:47
something special about Azeroth that
1:06:49
lets us do some a lot of these things.
1:06:51
>> All right. Well, hopefully that has
1:06:52
answered your series of questions, my
1:06:55
dear listeners. And if not, well, you're
1:06:58
going to have to come back for another
1:06:59
one because we're going to keep doing
1:07:00
this. But I do want to thank you again.
1:07:01
Blizzard is made possible due to your
1:07:04
generous contributions at
1:07:05
patreon.com/bizzardwatch.
1:07:07
Your continued support means that this
1:07:09
podcast site and community is able to
1:07:10
thrive and grow. Blizzard supporters
1:07:13
enjoy benefits like early access to our
1:07:16
podcast, a better chance at having your
1:07:18
question answered on our podcast or the
1:07:19
queue, and that's free site experience.
1:07:22
Again, if you have questions for this or
1:07:24
any of our podcasts, we ask that you go
1:07:26
ahead and send those in.
1:07:28
1:07:29
is the email. We ask that you specify
1:07:32
the show that it is for in the subject
1:07:33
line, as well as any special
1:07:35
pronunciation of your name. If you want
1:07:38
to hit us up on Discord, we have two
1:07:39
channels set aside. We have the Q and
1:07:40
Podcast questions channel, which is open
1:07:42
for everybody. Same rules apply. If you
1:07:45
are a Patreon supporter, you can go
1:07:46
ahead and hit us up on the Patreon Q and
1:07:48
podcast questions channel where we tend
1:07:50
to look there first. as a way of saying
1:07:52
thank you for helping us keep the lights
1:07:53
on. And again, friends, uh if you can't
1:07:56
support us on Patreon, we understand. Be
1:07:58
sure to share our content. Leave those
1:08:00
likes. I know everybody begs for them,
1:08:02
but they do actually matter. Leave
1:08:04
comments on it if you have them. We love
1:08:07
to see them, and it does help our
1:08:08
content get served to people through
1:08:10
whatever algorithm nonsense is happening
1:08:13
at the time. And again, at the beginning
1:08:15
of the show, I asked for you to maybe
1:08:17
send in a story of how you got into the
1:08:20
lore of something, whether it's comic
1:08:22
books, movies, TV, why the story matters
1:08:25
to you. I'd love to hear your stories
1:08:27
about that. But that friends, we'll see
1:08:30
you next week.