Up next in 10
Lore Watch this week explores three questions sent in by our listeners, all ending in answers we may see as we go forward into Midnight. First, they talk about the different types of magic -- specifically that Warlock magic stems from the Titans -- and why that knowledge didn't knock the socks clean off the Kirin Tor. Or maybe Xal'atath literally knocking those socks off also knocked some sense into them, and that's where we'll see them in Midnight. Then, we turn to the cry of Azeroth we saw in the teaser trailer for The War Within -- where did Anduin and Thrall go, by the way? Did everyone really hear the cries of Azeroth, or was that something else? Finally, on a scale from one to ten, just how elfy an expansion is Midnight going to be? Because we suspect pretty elfy (and when we say "pretty elfy" we're not just talking about Kael'thas).
As always, the answers to the questions posed lead to some interesting places.
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0:00
hello and welcome to lore watch around table freeform discussion about learning your favorite
0:14
media i'm your host joe prez one of several lower focused folks from blizzard watch and i've got my
0:20
marvelous co-host with me today matt rossi how you doing today matt i really need to like come
0:25
up with a rock of eternity related pun there you should i don't know how many people would get it
0:29
But, you know, if you guys don't know about Shazam slash Captain Marvel, and he was the first Captain Marvel, it's just a fact
0:37
You should totally look into it sometime because they had some whack-out stuff in the original Captain Marvel comics
0:44
Like the talking tiger who wore pants was like the least weird thing they had
0:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know what else to say
0:53
Comics during that time period, which was like, again, we can talk about that someday if people are interested
0:58
were wild. And never the same kind of wild. Like the Spectre versus
1:07
Captain Marvel versus Batman versus the Justice Society. Completely different flavors of odd
1:17
Yeah. Yeah, they were. Characters like the Phantom Lady. Go ahead, go man
1:22
That's not what we're here to talk about, or the fact that Jimmy Olsen once dated a supervillain who was really
1:26
a banshee but that's a whole again another whole weird story element that we could get into uh we're
1:32
here to answer questions today from you our wonderful listeners uh and we're going to go
1:36
ahead and we'll get started with those in a second but if you have questions for this or any of our
1:40
podcasts i want to encourage you to send them in please be sure to send those into podcasts at
1:45
blizzardwatch.com specify the show that it is for in the subject line and then give us any special
1:51
pronunciation of your name you can also hit us up on discord we have two server uh channels set
1:56
aside for you. We have the Q&Podcast question channel. It's open for everybody. You can go ahead and
2:00
same rules apply there. Just throw us your questions. We also have the Patreon Q&Podcast
2:05
questions channel where we tend to look there first as a way of saying thank you for helping us
2:08
keep the lights on. And then you can also send us messages directly on Patreon
2:13
And it's not just limited to questions. You can also send us anything you have for themes that you want us to cover for the potentially for
2:18
a lore watch in the future. And I encourage you to send those in, especially now that we know that we're
2:22
getting closer to a midnight, uh, well, deeper reveal, uh, or if you have any questions about any of the
2:29
books or the times in between or any speculation you want us to go off on a wild tangent on
2:33
there inside, we're happy to do so, but we just need to know which ones you want us to
2:38
go with. Or if you want to talk about comic books for, you know, an hour, you know, twist my arm
2:42
It'll be, it'll be, it'll be tough. No, Joe doesn't want it. Don't make him do it, guys. Don't make him do it
2:47
Don't throw him in the briar patch. But our first question today is going to wind up coming from our good friend, Vertigree
2:52
This is a second part of the questions that was asked last week that spawned an entire episode
2:58
So thank you, Vertigree. Did they ever know warlocks were using titan magic
3:04
Did they care to ask the druids about the overlap with arcane magic? This is about the Kirin Tor, by the way
3:09
All this to say, I now really dig the trajectory of the Kirin Tor story, taking Zeltas' reality check to heart
3:15
leaving behind literal ivory towers and echo chambers and graciously retiring from Leroy Jenkins in a city into conflict
3:23
and pivoting to a decentralization, non-hierarchical research and education role perhaps. Like the Jedi need the Sith to define themselves
3:30
the real unlimited power was the frenemies we made along the way. Yours truly, Archmage Riddigree
3:34
The reason I wanted to bring this up again was the level of isolation of magic
3:40
I guess would be an interesting topic for the Cairn tour because that does seem like an interesting perspective
3:48
We know that the Kirin Tor have access to or had access to a vast library of knowledge as far as humans are concerned
3:57
It wasn't quite the Azure archives, although those are now open, at least somewhat open when they're not trying to actively kill you
4:04
But the idea of did they understand that warlocks were using Titan magic
4:09
or did they actually talk to druids about the fact that druids do have an overlap with arcane magic
4:15
uh did they ever you know actively research that talk with those groups i don't know that we've
4:22
ever had an indication that they did do we matt we've had minor indications that primarily anything
4:28
like that that they would have had would have been done through one of the guardians because
4:33
the Guardian, even before they had their own sanctum in, I want to say
4:39
Karazhan, that's not it. No, it is Karazhan. Yeah, Karazhan, basically the Guardian Tower
4:44
Before Medivh quote-unquote built Karazhan, and we could go into that in a second, but
4:53
there were still multiple Guardians before his mother, before Aegon. And they were the ones who
4:59
went to places other people on the Eastern Kingdoms would never have thought to go
5:04
Aegon went to the Northrend and fought the Arvatar of Sargeras up there
5:10
She did that way, way, you know, close to 100 years before the First and Second War
5:19
And then, you know, dragged its body back and shoved it into a Titan facility in the middle of a lost Broken Isles
5:24
A facility in the Broken Isles. She just rocks up and sticks him in there
5:31
So it's clear that there was information available to the Carantor and the Guardians that they weren't sharing
5:38
But in terms of, like, did they know that the Warlocks were using Titan magic
5:44
I doubt it, because they didn't study Warlock magic very much. They mostly either locked it away or tried to destroy it
5:53
In fact, the whole reason that Dalaran gets raided in the second Warcraft game is because they're trying to get a cipher from the Carin Tor that will allow them to replicate Ner'zhul's experiments
6:12
They want to open up portals. Ner'zhul wants to open up portals all over the place, and for that he needs the magic that the Carin Tor had their hands on
6:20
So that magic is probably the closest we're going to get to something Titanic that would be related to this
6:28
But it's, you know, we don't have a lot of information about this kind of stuff specifically
6:34
There's no stories of, like, Kirin Tor mages heading over to Kalimdor and chatting with, you know, druids
6:43
Because at the time, I don't think you could find druids other than, like, in Gilneas with the old folk
6:49
And they weren't, they were like hedge druids at this point. They'd lost, they were so far away from the original source of druidic magic that they didn't really have the, uh, the true mojo
7:00
They were just like, they could cast a couple of spells and do some old prayers
7:04
Well, think about it during the timeframe. Like if you would assume that they were going to talk with any druids, the prime time that they would have done that, most of them were asleep
7:14
Most of them were engaged in that hibernation cycle with, uh, our cause
7:18
plane Malfurion. Yeah. I mean, they were doing that. And also they were a continent away through an ocean that nobody wanted to sail through at the time Like keep in mind that the chances of sailing directly into the maelstrom were pretty bad back then Yeah and teleporting to an unknown location is not something that mages would do
7:39
And at this point, Dalaran was not exactly a floating city that they could just, like, sail across the world
7:45
Yeah, no, it was still a regular city just in the ground. The city's supposed to be, guys
7:50
Yeah, and Kalandor was often viewed or at least thought of as a wild, untamed, dangerous place, right
7:57
Or fantasy. Like, there's an actual story of one of the, there's a story of a blood elf
8:02
who found records of Kalimdor in Silvermoon and was like, is this some high elf fantasy
8:12
Like, what is this? And keep in mind, he was only like two generations removed
8:16
from elves that had actually left Kalimdor to become the high elves
8:21
and those guys like a lot of it is just deliberate we don't want to talk about this we don't want to
8:29
talk about that place because they kicked us out yeah so and keep in mind it was the high elves who
8:37
trained the original mages that eventually became the karen tour which is why there were high elves
8:43
in the karen tour it would not be surprising to me to find out that the high elves were like
8:47
kind of steering people away from talking to druids and going to kalimdor because druids are
8:54
the ones who banished them yeah and think about it this way too like the only other the only other
8:58
group on the you know eastern kingdoms that would have been able to maybe talk about that
9:03
we're looking at maybe the trolls right like they would be the other ones that would have
9:08
any potential knowledge of one druidism uh because there is a a cross reference there because i mean
9:16
we can talk about troll magic here in a second as well um but also the humans and trolls don't get
9:22
along they had whole wars about it uh the curator wasn't exactly to go out of their way to go talk
9:26
with them and say hey what's up my troll friends give me a high three let's talk about what happens
9:31
with your magic yeah i mean part of the problem there is that the kill the curantor wouldn't exist
9:37
if the hiles hadn't been desperate enough to go to the humans and say we need your help against
9:43
the trolls and that wouldn't have happened if the trolls weren't homicidal maniacs uh and now
9:51
do the trolls have reason to be homicidal maniacs yes of course they did i mean that would be
9:56
ridiculous to say what did they have reason of course they did these multiple different invader
10:00
groups came to a land that they'd had since before the uh initial you know sundering and
10:08
suddenly they're there you know if you're a troll you're like why are there elves living in my
10:13
woods. Why are there humans living in my plains? These were ours. Why are you here? Get out
10:19
And both the elves and humans' response was along the lines of no. To the humans
10:25
they're like, you know, we've been here, no one's been here but us. You just came down one
10:29
day and decided. It was like, no, this was exasperally ours. And so
10:33
you know, fighting. Because both trolls and humans at that time were
10:37
incredibly aggressive. I mean, let's also remember that humans had a leader whose, you know
10:41
last name is literally Trollbane. Yeah, yeah. There's a sword called Trollkalar, which literally means troll killer. They were not kidding around about this. And also, at the same time, like I said, the High Elves just showed up and just took over the best part of what we call Queldenas, because that's what the Elves called it
11:05
that was all part of the the mani tribe's dominion that whole area um going from the
11:12
very tip where the sun well and uh silver moon are all the way down into like gilneas and
11:19
uh we call it hillshore hillshire um those were all troll places and then further down i mean you
11:26
can go to the highlands you see troll stuff all over the plate the erathi highlands covered in
11:31
troll stuff so i mean there's still trolls living there trying to get the humans out thousands of
11:36
years later um so yeah there's a there's a lot of back and forth on that there's a reason that
11:42
the karen tour wouldn't be particularly welcome um and then there's the problem that the kilt the
11:48
kilt the karen tour had kind of a separation issue when the kingdoms like the the arathi empire
11:55
became the seven kingdoms um they didn't take the city up into the sky at that moment but they did
12:02
start isolating themselves they did pull away like they didn't want to be talked you know they didn't
12:08
want to get involved in the mundane affairs of other nations even if those mundane affairs were
12:13
you know trolls are attacking us or you know um we're kind of having a problem with like the land
12:21
in revolt or you know what have you the character like get back to us when it's demons or get back
12:26
to us when it's mages so there's their focus against demonic magic of any kind to keep them
12:33
from studying it to figure out oh wait this is like similar to these titan magics they have
12:39
the fact that they didn't have a lot of titan magics um and the stuff they had was often in
12:43
books written by people who were reading books from other people like the one that always comes
12:49
to mind for me is the bit where they talk about how Elune
12:52
might have been involved in the ordering of the cosmos. And the reason, you know
12:59
Tadgar read this and thought, oh, well, maybe Elune, the tear of
13:03
Elune can wake up one of the Naru Primes. Not Naru Primes
13:07
No, it is Naru. Yeah, Naru Primes. And so they used it to wake up Zera
13:11
But it's like, dude, this was a book written based on other books
13:14
that we don't even have anymore. that's like a lot of karen tor knowledge ended up being like that um it's like second or third hand
13:23
it's compilations remember when we went to the broken aisles how jazzed the mages were to finally
13:30
get a chance to look at the first editions of stuff yeah like stuff that stuff that had been
13:34
talked about uh like for generations of oh i got a book that mentions a book that mentions this
13:39
yeah and i mean the other thing to keep in mind too with the karen tor at the time is
13:44
a lot of their, especially over the years, and we talked about this in the last episode
13:48
and there's more questions. Trust me, we're not going to spend the entire time on Kieran Torr, although we could. They were very, as Matt said
13:56
focused on very different aspects, and not necessarily just different magics, but let's say in terms of druidism
14:04
they may have books on druids, but it may not be what you think it is
14:08
And maybe this is what we've heard that druids can do in how you fight against it or warlocks of summoning demons and lashing them to, you know, their will
14:19
They probably had books on it, but it wasn't necessarily studying it. It was more likely how to fight it or combat it or to like work against it or something
14:27
And absolutely any knowledge they would have had about, you know, trolls. Because again, trolls weren't just like shaman and druids
14:34
trolls like they had not quite warlock but shadow hunter is a magic in and of itself right like it
14:41
is it is a primal magic that has a source that we have not really dove into we dove a little bit
14:48
into it in the the vulgian book but not really like we know that it links with the loa in a way
14:53
that druidism doesn we know that it links with azeroth in a way that the other magics don and it you know it reminds me of what that the drust It really does Yeah The drust the way drust approach druidism is very similar to me to shadow uh shadow hunters
15:09
So I definitely think there's, there's room for that to be connected up
15:13
And the interesting thing is like, had they had stopped and realized that the world was
15:17
growing smaller and that you can't just worry about fighting all of your neighbors
15:23
this is all categories that they would have had been prime like they could have written volumes
15:30
and volumes in volumes of books on this stuff especially because at the time when we meet them
15:36
in originally the world like when world of work off and the kirin tour are around they're talking
15:41
about trying to become more neutral they're not doing it not for a while and honestly that leads
15:48
to some problems later on in the story where you have you know the whole mana bomb situation
15:53
um we don't even see the cult we don't even see kul tiris as an actual not culture is
15:58
you have a current turn and kul tiris are kind of tied together not kul tiris sorry dalaran
16:04
we don't even see dalaran until wrath yeah and before that there are certainly members of the
16:12
kirin tour showing up but they're like occasional like like archmage anselm or the ones mostly just
16:17
there because he wants his daughter not to get killed or the members of the members that are also members of the violent a violet eye that sit outside of uh karazhan yeah yeah at the uh
16:27
basically the opening of burning crusade the middle of the beginning of burning crusade
16:32
um so it's it's not that they don't have any presence but they don't have a unified we have
16:40
a you know we were here because you know the entire karen tour backs us the entire karen tour
16:45
is mostly busy turns out floating their city away um but yeah it is weird joe's joe's right that it
16:52
is not an organization that at first has any real cohesion to it yeah and i think it's not even that
16:59
it lacks the cohesion like that's definitely a factor in it but it's also the the the sheer
17:05
desire or the sheer like when they come together their focus isn't necessarily research like
17:12
the times of Antonidas are gone right like he's he's not there anymore he's not present uh his
17:20
pupil is in the wind the the next best archmage uh you have Jaina Proudmoore right she's just not
17:27
there um you have Khadgar missing at the the opening of everything until we don't get to see
17:33
Khadgar until we go to to BC right like that's the first time we interact with Khadgar at all
17:39
um you know the the world is in a weird place when magic is concerned the kieran tor are not
17:45
exactly in a a positive place and like matt said we don't get really interact with most of them
17:52
until wrath and at wrath they're trying to take this neutral role but it's still a war footing
17:59
it's not it's still a a we need to fight not research and i always found that fascinating
18:06
because that at that moment they could wrath is the perfect time they could have started having
18:12
these conversations too right they could have pulled other heroes aside how does your magic
18:18
work let's talk about this let's see if there's overlap let's see if there's a way we can combine
18:23
our powers and strengths instead they're launching fireballs um and then after that we still have
18:30
more of the same and more of the same and more of the same even when you know they throw out the
18:36
the blood elves uh i think it was the sun reavers uh from uh dalaran uh in particular like when they
18:43
throw them out of dalaran they're still on a war footing and it isn't until now literally
18:48
decades later literal decades later where dalaran has to be blown up and cadgar and the rest even
18:56
kagar falls to pray to this as well is forced to take stock of their direction do we even get
19:03
something resembling like an actual evaluation of where they go. And now
19:09
now maybe we can actually start having those conversations. And I think that that might potentially be very important moving into the
19:16
next two expansions, because like you've pointed out here, Verd, Warlocks use Titan magic to bind demons to their will
19:24
That seems like something the Kirin tour may actually be interested in, especially in the coming
19:29
you know, two expansions, right? We got to be dealing with Xalatath, who's bending things to her will
19:35
That's a central theme moving into Midnight. And we're going to be dealing with Titan stuff
19:40
Well, dissecting Titan magic seems like an important thing if we're going to be dealing with Titan stuff
19:45
And again, it doesn't necessarily have to be this is how we fight it, but it does have to be this is how we understand it
19:51
Here's how we understand their connection to these planes or these locus of power or how they weave their spells that will become important
20:01
And now you have this the scattered group of Kirin Tor, this organization, actually caring about, well, learning again, going back to their roots, what they were originally founded, like founded for
20:14
And instead of maintaining their city and instead of, you know, going off to war at the drop of a hat or, you know, focusing all their energy on maintaining a floating city that they're bringing to war, they can go do research now
20:28
they can go find lost tone they now have the knowledge that multiple worlds exist they have
20:35
access to archives that were never open to the mortal realms before like the azure archive i don't
20:42
think it can be understated how important that is going to be for mages it's super important for the
20:48
blue dragon flight but imagine a mage being invited in by calygos to say look for not just
20:56
the first edition, but look for proto editions, things that existed in research notes and
21:03
thoughts and thesis statements before it was actually written into a text or a manual
21:10
How invaluable would that be? We've already seen glimpses of that, right
21:14
So they could do the same thing with the Druids. Things are calmed down enough
21:18
We now have Belémath, which I think is really cool because it is a new Elven city where
21:25
all elves are welcome and not only does it let them talk to druids it lets them talk to
21:31
arcane elves it lets them talk to elves that practice other forms of music like that very
21:37
singular night elf paladin can we please get more night elf paladins can we make that a thing
21:41
blizzard please i would really appreciate it um they have the access to potentially the uh
21:47
uh the why can i even talk now uh the folks uh the blood elves may actually have presence there
21:55
occasionally especially with what happens in the next expansion where yeah it would make sense i
22:01
mean that's the other thing too one of the things would make sense for the karen tour moving forward and i i hate to do this to people because the world of warcraft comic had a very divisive effect
22:09
on some folks uh i i'm not saying bring midan back or anything like that but there was one idea
22:15
they had for the council of terrorist fall that i think could be you know used in terms with the
22:21
here in Tor and other groups, is to actually recreate a Council of Tearsfall that has representatives from each of these big magical conclaves Oh my God that would be so amazing An actual conclave of the magic users of Azeroth
22:36
Yeah, like you'd have the Kirin Tor representing mages. They could reach out to other groups of just mages
22:43
that are out in the world that are not part of the Kirin Tor right now. Like, for instance, the ones that have joined the Night Elves
22:49
Night Elves have mages again. they should be talking with those guys
22:55
because their magic, they had demon summoning magic. And they need to be talking with the blood elves
23:00
And I've been saying this for years. Spellbreakers are one of the most important things
23:07
that we have never gotten to play in the game. And we talked about it last week
23:13
They're specifically designed to interact with magic in a way that other magic users aren't
23:18
Yeah, they're kind of like... It's funny. I said before that I thought they'd make a good paladin spec
23:23
They'd also would work as warriors too, because of spell reflection and stuff. But in terms of their
23:29
their lore, they are completely distinct on martial order. Yeah. They're a martial order that
23:34
that basically exists. We want to keep having magic, but we don't want any of the negative stuff
23:39
So we're going to make this group so that if anybody gets out of line, we will come down hard on them
23:45
And that's a kind of magic that I'm sure there are people out there who
23:49
would love to learn it who are not blood elves um imagine imagine humans breaking out into like
23:56
spellbreaker patterns in order to fight a rogue wizard or a you know a rogue arcane force across
24:03
the universe or even even more like devourers that would be whatever those things are yeah
24:09
i don't know what that thing is but i know one thing i don't want it to eat any magic right now
24:14
so i'm gonna just shut that off uh yeah there's that's a possibility i honestly think that one of
24:19
of the great things would be to see like if you had this council you'd basically have like
24:23
the the shaman group that we got in legion and you know the scenarian circle and they'd all send
24:30
somebody to it and it would it would train it would you know transcend faction lines entirely
24:36
like you know it doesn't matter if you're horde or alliance we're not here to talk about that
24:40
we're here to talk about these weird things that are coming up out of the ground and not necessarily
24:46
not necessarily we're gonna like muster up and go fight them that's that's that's down there
24:51
we are going to we're going to comprehend them we are going to be the ones who give you quests
24:57
to bring you could you bring me 10 devourer eyes i really need to look at their eyes
25:01
for what um i need to see what they can see well do they see life force do they see anima
25:07
i i need you to do that and while you're at it my druid friend over here he wants their tongues
25:13
Yeah, and I think that becomes more important too, especially because like, and I think this can't be overstated as well
25:18
Go through EcoDome Aldani if you have the chance in the current expansion and pay attention to the variation of devourers that are there
25:27
They mutate and evolve based off of what they consume. This becomes exceptionally important and research into them, very important
25:37
I'd love to see that being taken seriously. I agree. hopefully that answers your question again we could probably talk about this for a good long
25:45
while but since we just had the full karen tour episode we're going to move on to some other
25:49
questions this one comes from erohan thinking about the war within trailer the story seems to
25:55
have very quickly left behind the premise and characters seen in the trailer anduin and thrall
26:00
are being called by azeroth but after teleporting daleron up above kazal gar we don't really get
26:05
more story of the world soul beyond magni being released from being the speaker so did azeroth
26:11
actually call anyone anduin and thrall have never really been in tune with the world soul before
26:16
and both have been lost anduin has been wandering since shadowlands and thrall has been trying to
26:22
find himself since warlords of draenor was azeroth actually xalatath in disguise preying on former
26:28
leaders that were seeking guidance and purpose we already know she absolutely wanted daleron brought
26:33
to Khazal-Gar, and we wouldn't have done so without Azeroth calling us here or calling us
26:38
there. That's an interesting speculation. So I think there's two parts to the question here
26:45
First, I will definitely agree. While we do have some story elements that remained with
26:50
Anduin throughout the campaign of the War Within, we hit the section with essentially the Arathi
27:00
returning to mainland from underground and getting to see some of the ancestral homes
27:06
and anduin's basically just saying i gotta go deal with something i'll catch up with you later
27:11
and then sort of disappearing thrall not really being present uh and i mean and maybe somebody
27:17
who plays horde will tell me otherwise uh because i've been playing mainly my alliance
27:22
too in this expansion but by and large thrall's not really around you don't really interact with
27:28
them very much i mean we have the moment where they come to kazal gar on the boats and everybody's
27:33
there but really we don't have a whole lot of interaction there and most of the interaction
27:39
with npcs we have afterwards are alleria uh for obvious reasons throughout the hunt for zelatath
27:45
and into the current uh content release the only real storyline i can think of for thrall um is the
27:52
one where he helps you go up and get the new griffins for the for the storm riders yeah like
27:58
he helps you do shaman things if you're even if you're not a shaman and then kind of like
28:02
disappears into the sunset really yeah like well you guys don't have a shaman so you need me but
28:07
no i am a shaman yes but you're right you need me okay whatever uh you can be here too i guess
28:13
that's cool yeah but it goes with something that i i i'm not gonna use this as a platform for my
28:19
my complaints but it is something that was really off-putting to me with the way the story developed
28:24
because I figured there's a lot of stuff here that seems like it wouldn't be a long-term payoff
28:30
Like, the Anduin stuff is fine. The Anduin stuff, that arc makes sense. Him disappearing after getting to where he, getting back to the mainland is a little, like
28:39
my people need me and disappears into the space Pucci style. But otherwise, up to that point, I think it makes sense
28:47
Thrall and the other leaders, like, really don't make a lot of sense at that point
28:52
because they kind of do like one thing and then disappear or stop being relevant
28:58
Like they just like, it's, it's like that old scene in like a
29:02
I forgot what comic book it is, but it's like when the page is closed, we're not activated
29:06
We're not turned on. So we just kind of sit here and do nothing. And it kind of is a little bit of what it feels like
29:11
Even Moira to an extent, Moira has a, the story element that goes up through Magni
29:18
And then her son is present. her son is doing stuff uh collecting titan discs and unraveling uh the sort of fate and and truth
29:29
behind the earth and background but even that stops at a certain point because you do all the
29:35
discs you get everything you need and there's no more chapters available for it uh and then
29:40
moira just kind of is hanging out with magmi like we're gonna go be father and daughter now i don't
29:46
care what's happening with the rest of the world i did my job i'm gone so like that feels a little
29:50
weird i don't know like what how do you feel about it in general it reminds me of original
29:54
world of warcraft really okay go ahead yeah i mean like you'd go do
29:59
a bunch of stuff, interact with certain NPCs, get to a certain point
30:06
You'd go into Blackrock Depths, as an example, for Magni or for Thrall
30:12
You'd always just like, you know, I don't want this, you know, I don't want any more trouble with the dwarves
30:16
Go handle this. I'm okay. Sure thing, Thrall. Why is Thrall sitting
30:20
I don't know. Then you'd get to that point where, you know
30:24
you kill her boyfriend and find out that he was her boyfriend. And you're like, oops
30:28
I'm just going to leave yeah let's just go I think you'll see Moira again for a while
30:34
even though the next dungeon you do is Molten Core you'd think there'd be more
30:42
with the Dark Iron Dwarves and stuff but other than jumping through a window
30:45
because of the way that they did the attunement process I had to do it the original way
30:51
where you actually had to walk through all of Blackrock Depths to get to the portal
30:56
to the Molten Core but then they made it so you could just jump out of a window
31:02
and boom, you'd be in there. Then you wouldn't see any more of it
31:06
And then at the end of Molten Core, after you dealt with Ragnaros and you were working with the Hydraxian Water Lords
31:11
and you then, like, you know, next raids a bunch of dragons and you don't talk to any of these people again
31:17
even though, like, wait a minute, wait a minute, why did you want to fight Ragnaros so bad
31:22
What's going on with that? No time. We're off to this new thing
31:25
and you go through that whole thing with like deathwing's son and his sister who's got her
31:31
own place you go to at a raid but she's tied into this and then you just okay now bugs what bugs
31:38
what what happened to all nope nope you have sour fang and you and the bugs and you're like okay
31:43
well sure we'll beat the bug armies i guess and did you go to zul grub yet okay i guess we cold
31:49
no there's there's uh oh bloody heck i can't remember the name of them zandalari zandalari
31:55
trolls will be friends with you and this is not gonna affect later on when you have to actually
32:00
fight them in a raid that's not gonna matter and then later on when they join the horde and still
32:05
not gonna matter uh but so what i'm saying is if anything i feel like it's reclaimed the weird
32:13
anarchic feeling of original wow where there was instead of having one big bad that affected
32:21
everything and you were constantly dealing with them it's like zalatath is a presence throughout
32:26
this expansion but she's like the only through line if that makes sense the only time you know
32:33
the the way we get to practically everything we do from you know cult you know from like um
32:39
kazalgar and going down into the various other places that's all about going after zalatath
32:46
when she's riling the nerubians up then when we go to undermine it's because zalatath is trying to
32:52
get the heart repaired um that that we helped alleria mess up uh when that gets stolen by the
32:59
ethereals we're like wait a minute what that what was that and then we end up going after it
33:05
and then we're now uh i don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't done it yet
33:09
stuff happens stuff happens and the goalpost shifts again yeah and at the end of that
33:16
none of these people stay with us from thing to thing and in a weird sort of way
33:22
like I think Anduin having as much presence as he did after the first part of the campaign
33:28
the fact that he was very clearly the contact point for the Arathi and then just as quickly
33:33
runs off to wherever that is so peak vanilla world of warcraft that is exactly how that used to go like you'd be like okay uh i i
33:46
got you all that that giant worm meat tyrian are you gonna help me yes yeah i'll help you in a vague
33:52
and unsupportive way and then i won't be there for the raids um and it's i don't hate it but i
34:01
don't like it either i i kind of feel like i i don't like to speculate about what's going on
34:07
behind the scenes because nobody tells me anything i do not but a lot of it does feel like some of the
34:11
story the story decisions and where these npcs are going it does feel like it's tied up with what's
34:16
happening behind the scenes i feel like it almost feels to me like the first up everything up to
34:22
undermine feels like it was intended to be um the war within yes and then i feel like the war within
34:31
was just supposed to stop at that point but they didn't the thing that becomes the opening of
34:37
midnight doesn't isn't the opening of midnight we should have gone it felt to me like there should
34:43
have been something involving the haranir and the black blood and all that stuff under underground
34:48
yeah i i was screaming about this on the podcast and then after that we should have gone like the
34:55
opening would have been going to koresh and we would have done probably a bit more in koresh
35:00
than we end up doing. Also my sentiment as well. And not that we don't do a lot in Koresh
35:05
It's a big patch. There's a lot here. But story-wise, it's get there
35:12
get to Dementius, get Dementius down. Thing happens. And then we go into Midnight
35:18
It feels more like that should have been the start of Midnight. And then from there, we would have done that
35:24
get to Dementius, thing happens, proceed along what we've seen from the previews and so forth
35:31
and then you know whatever that's going to be profit like and I don't know if they had to
35:39
take something out because clearly the Haranir are going to be in midnight
35:43
and I feel like the Haranir were intended to be the way into
35:47
midnight well I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to pause that for now because
35:51
that ties in I think with our last question that we're going to get to let's I want to
35:55
finish answering this question before we get into that because i have some very strong feelings that
35:59
is that's what i'm saying that that is my feeling for how this feels versus how i would have expected
36:04
it to feel uh i think it feels a little disjointed for the similar kind of reason uh where i think a
36:11
lot of times in early wow storytelling they very deliberately did not follow up on stuff right away
36:18
so they could follow up on it later if they later on chose to yeah there's there's always been an
36:24
element of that there's always been an element of that we know that there's going to be loose threads and that's fine right like we we sort of expect that it seems abrupt in this case i think it does
36:33
just because for a couple of different reasons but one of those reasons is it is a real departure
36:39
from what we have been seeing since battle for azeroth yeah i would agree with that like the
36:44
storytelling maybe even take a shift maybe even since legion oh yeah yeah legion had a question
36:51
Velen does have a swerve at the end, but it's a swerve we all expected
36:55
And not only that, but it was a cohesive story with shared bylines and through lines
37:00
And the same people keep showing up. Like, you know, Velen doesn't F off to, you know, Crystal's land
37:05
He shows up for the last bit, even though it's on a different planet, because it's his planet
37:10
He wants to go back. Heck, Bill and Ted are through line throughout the entirety of Legion as well
37:16
Yeah, that's fair. Like a minor NPC is present for all of it. But the other side of your question, I want to just kind of get to that before we start going into the other ones
37:24
I think the other one going to cause us to go a little haywire Did Azeroth actually call anyone Yeah we know she did Not only do I think she did I think that is the one thing about the end of the War Within that gives you an idea of why
37:41
Because there's a point where you're going to Koresh and the Ethereals and Brokers, Brokers, the Broker, right
37:49
Yeah, they're there. and they're like yes this is like back when our planet is dementius arrived our planet began singing
37:56
and you're like oh and like there's people on on koresh who were literally like war priests of the
38:03
world soul that had an entire ritual that allowed them to commune and talk with koresh without
38:08
turning into diamonds without turning into diamonds but then again that might have just but to be fair to be fair the dagger that they they use the ritual dagger for it was a crystal
38:17
that's uh yeah they didn't need to turn into crystal because they had a bunch on them i don't
38:22
know but yeah it definitely does talk about that it definitely ties in but we also now it ties in
38:29
with that too because i think part of it is now instead of magni being the only speaker
38:33
every earthen that is born is now a complete being and is in all honesty probably the first
38:42
true Azeroth born race in a while because every other race that we have on Azeroth
38:51
the Titans tinkered with at some point, almost every single one of them
38:56
They were either, they were either crafted by the Titans and the Titan watchers and we evolved
39:00
there in, or they were reshaped or they were, you know, messed with by minions of the old Titan watchers and Titans
39:09
We have a whole history of it. these earthen while they are constructs before they're fully born now given that light from
39:19
Azeroth have that connection there's a whole thing about it it's like no I dream now like I have
39:25
dreams I have a connection with something bigger yeah why does this keep happening I keep I'm
39:31
functioning fine then suddenly I like and I have weird fantasies about things that aren't true and
39:37
And they all hear the song, right? They all hear – that's one of the shared things of it is they all hear the song of Azeroth
39:44
And that means that essentially we have an entire new group of speakers
39:48
And we haven't had that defined yet to say how large that is or what that actually means for the longevity of the earthen
39:57
That's a whole subplot with Dagram and I can't remember her name but the Forge speaker
40:04
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I remember. That's a whole subplot that they're exploring with the disc
40:09
I like to call her Dagger's girlfriend. I mean, because they are. Yeah, even though she's like, what, several thousand years old and he's like 15
40:18
You thought Twilight was bad. Ain't nothing to a dwarf. Don't worry about it
40:22
Well, so she does glitter. She does glitter. In sunlight. But the idea is that I do think that Azeroth was actually making the call
40:30
Now, Zalatath, I think, in this particular case, may have heard it because Zalatath was present at Koresh
40:39
We know that. And we know that Zalatath's magic is involved in the storyline of Koresh
40:45
And I'm trying really hard not to spoil anything for folks that haven't finished yet. But she's tied up with��
40:50
Just imagine a box. There's like a box with red lines through it. And it's like��
40:55
Everything comes back to Zalatath. Joe will tell you later. Yeah. but she's tied up with the broker she's tied up with uh the ethereal she's tied up with the
41:05
various cartels and we know her magic is present there that's just that's opening sequence of this
41:10
particular content patch there's nothing that says that she couldn't her of heard azeroth's call
41:15
there's nothing that says she couldn't have been privy to that she is very powerful and she is
41:20
always listening and she is always the opportunist and this is just how she is so
41:27
So Dalaran presents an interesting opportunity. And this ties in with what we talked about beforehand
41:36
Dalaran is a huge power source, has a huge number of mages and arcane treasures
41:42
It is a magical city. It is perfect for what she's trying to do
41:47
But you need to get them off their footing. You need to have them lower their guard
41:52
well what better way than to play into and take the opportunity to play into their war footing
41:58
because absolutely if drendon shows up and says i agree uh we need to go and take the city uh and
42:06
sally forth for the defense of azeroth you know this long dead archmage that nobody's really
42:12
checked in with uh of course they're going to listen and that's an opportunity for her to take
42:16
where it needs to go and her to start doing what she needs to do because where Dalaran is
42:22
they're secured. But in that moment of transferring, in that moment of traveling
42:27
in that moment of coming forth, two things happen. One, she gets an opportunity to tear down the
42:34
wards. Two, the city gets to be sieged by minions that she has already riled up. And in that chaos
42:43
she gets the three absorb all of that power daleron blowing up that's just a bonus she just
42:49
wanted to suck up the power but i don't think zalatath was the one that was pulling the strings
42:53
on the song itself despite the fact that anduin and thrall were lost in hearing the song i do
43:00
think that their characters are smart enough at this point or at least in anduin's position
43:05
questioning enough after what happened in shadowlands to literally question everything and
43:11
I think two people often forget that Thrall kind of has a connection to the earth element of Azeroth
43:17
Yeah, he was, don't forget, was the replacement for Neltharion in the ritual
43:22
There's a whole book about it. So I don't think that Zalatath was the orchestrator of the song
43:29
I do think, however, she heard it and took advantage of it. That's my theory. Do you have any thoughts on that particular part of it, Matt
43:35
I think it's interesting that we know, again, trying not to spoil anything for Koresh
43:40
But there's a reason that Koresh began singing before its end. And I think Zalatath is a lot less, like, she presents an incredibly polished and competent front
43:55
But I'm starting to think there's some scrambling going on. Based on what she reveals on Koresh about her relationship to what happened to the Ethereals and Brokers
44:05
um and i think when she heard that her reaction was not yay i'm gonna profit from this it was
44:14
i gotta do something right now i need to do something right now i cannot let this happen
44:20
and so whilst i certainly think that she is an antagonist and not to be trusted
44:25
uh i think that what she's doing it's it's sort of like sylvanas back in the old days where she'd
44:31
be doing things that you hate, but sometimes she was doing them for reasons you kind of agreed with
44:36
And, and you'd be like, wait, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, we do
44:40
I definitely get that feeling that that vibe of Zalatath here. I definitely don't think she's behind this
44:47
I think she is reacting to it. And I think she's reacting to it as someone who knows more about it than we do
44:53
Yeah. Yeah. She definitely knows more about it than we do I think that that sort of her MO hopefully that answered your question though but I think we going to try to move on and see if we can get this last one in here
45:05
because I think this is relevant to part of the conversation where we started floating a little bit earlier
45:11
And this one comes from Storm Vintage. Are we finally getting the Elven expansion you've always talked about
45:18
Think about it. We have Blood Elves, Haranir, basically Proto Elves, Amani trolls basically proto proto proto elves and then Sylvanas being hinted at in interviews
45:27
unfortunately Naga seemed to be off the table what do you guys think um so for context during one of
45:34
the interviews at gamescom I forgot which of the folks but I know Ian Hazakas this was on stage and
45:40
I can't remember who he was with and I really apologize um they were talking about the next
45:47
expansion they're talking about midnight uh and on like literally unprompted uh one of the things
45:54
was uh sylvanas being in some of the material is possibly not a mistake uh that you know it may not
46:01
be the last we've seen of her which we kind of expected especially with alaria being tied up so
46:06
so keenliness i think matt and i have also speculated that it would not be it would not
46:10
be out of the ordinary for us to see Sylvanas come back to help Elyria in the final moments of
46:19
Zalatath or hunting Zalatath because even Venari has a voice line in your questing and this is a
46:26
mild spoiler but it's really early in the questing and the new content so like it's like five ten
46:31
minutes in like it's one of the first interactions you have which is Venari literally turns to
46:38
Zalatath and says, I've been to the maw. I know what the void fears
46:43
Don't test me. And we know from the comics and Matt has pointed this out and we've talked about it in the past
46:51
When the three sisters comic happened and all of the sisters were together, the void
46:57
was screaming in Malaria's head to destroy Sylvanas. It was terrified of her
47:04
So we've been talking about this for a while. I would put money on Sylvanas showing up at the last second to save Elyria because if anybody is going to put Zalatath on a back footing, it's going to be Sylvanas
47:20
It's somebody who's outside of the cycle. The void is, again, part of the cycle
47:24
Matt's talked about this at length. We've talked about this time and time again
47:30
Sylvanas doesn't care about the void. Sylvanas doesn't care about the light. She doesn't care about the natural order of things
47:35
She exists outside of it. And that makes her dangerous to the void. And I think that that would be really poetic to have her come back in a triumphant moment to help her sister by really messing up Zalataz's day
47:49
Now, as far as it being a full elf expansion, I don't know that it's going to be that
47:54
I think there's going to be elements of it because we know now from the stuff that we saw at Gamescom and the original trailer or the cinematic that we got for it and some of the content that we're going to be dealing with elves
48:05
We know that we're going to be in Silvermoon City. We know that we're going to be helping them and there's going to be interaction there
48:12
And we do know that there is assistance coming from multiple locations to defend the Sunwell
48:20
We know all of this. This is all not spoilers. This is all stuff that they have in promotional materials
48:25
It is possible that some of those would be more elves. We know that the Haranir are going to be a playable race in Midnight
48:35
and we can talk a little bit more about the heron here here in a second
48:39
because, yes, they seem to be the missing link between night trolls and night elves
48:45
They definitely seem to be right in between there. You have the Amani trolls, which are right there
48:51
They have an invested interest in the world not going away, so they may actually help
48:55
But I don't know that it's going to be entirely elf-specific. If I had to hazard a guess, once we're done with initial Sunwell stuff
49:03
It's either going to have the Blood Elves going to Belémeth for a while, depending on whether or not Silvermoon City survives, or them sending just a congregation to sort of interact with the other elves, which they haven't done yet because I don't think they felt welcome
49:18
And we're going to move on from there because if anything of the recent content has taught me anything, they're going to drop this and move on to something
49:26
But that's my theory. Matt, do you have thoughts about whether or not this is going to be an elf-centric expansion
49:31
I think there's going to be elves as a big part of it, because obviously destroying the Sunwell, possibly trying to create a Voidwell, is something that's going on
49:42
We also know that the Army of the Light shows up. That's in the opening cinematic, guys. I don't feel like it's a spoiler
49:49
When Blizzard literally announces it in a cinematic, like a year before the expansion comes out
49:55
I'm sorry, but you're going into the game, you're supposed to know this. so yeah army of the light shows up that implies some things because the army of the light was was
50:06
an anti-legion organization but they didn't like the void either when aleria when aleria was getting
50:13
her void on while she was hanging out with them they locked her up they were like no void bad um
50:19
so i don't think it's going to just be you know elves elves elves for one thing i don't think
50:26
you're going to see a lot of night elf stuff in here. I mean, the part where night elves get paladins that that's going to be amazing
50:32
Um, Joe is like weeping, happy, joy, tears right now. But you know
50:36
in all sincerity, I, I would love to see Bellemeth get used
50:39
I would love to see night elf, like civilians get evacuated to it
50:44
Like not like enough blood elf, blood elf civilians get evacuated to it. Like, I'd love to see a thing where for once people like
50:49
well, let's not leave our civilian population in the city to get destroyed. Let's get them out of here
50:54
We've got, we've got mages. they have they have a secure location that is protected by the dragons on literally an island
51:00
out in the middle of a middle of a f and nowhere that that's going to be real hard for anybody to
51:05
get to let's get our citizens there like yeah yeah i would agree with that let's let's move them over
51:11
and i would like it if you if at one point you actually do get like you know the blood elves are
51:18
like standing against uh void forces there uh under xalatath and then you see like you know
51:26
druidic portals opening up and night elves come riding out and arcane portals opening up and the
51:31
the night not the night the nightborne uh elves start showing up and there's elves from the uh
51:39
dire mall area the original uh the ones are the night elf wizards now they show up and
51:45
you get like void elves make a big void portal and show up and like you know f you
51:50
yeah we we don't do what the void says the void does what we say um and just everybody is there
51:58
that'd be cool i don't know that it's gonna happen um i think it'd be a great end of the
52:04
part one of the of the campaign type thing but no idea i don't think this expansion is going to
52:10
just be an elf expansion though i i have no idea what happens in part two of this because we know
52:17
stuff is going to happen uh we know that there's going to be like a chapter one of like the campaign
52:23
that you go through as you level i don know what happens then after i don know what the next patch will be and like Joe said we seen a lot of patches just kind of happen Yeah So maybe that happen
52:35
We do know that the Haranir show up almost immediately. Yeah. And we are going to them in the opening parts of this
52:43
Which is one of the things that I think is interesting because Matt talked about this a little bit earlier
52:46
And I've been literally screaming my head off about this since the first cinematic just dropped
52:52
actually since the new content uh released the the mana forge stuff where i i'm starting to
52:59
question the structure on where we're going and things because the logical order that we seem to
53:05
be that we seem to have since and i think that's right i think since legion minus the the final
53:11
twist which you just we kind of come to expect at this um it kind of got thrown out the well
53:15
out the out the window right like i would have expected the mana forge stuff to be the opening
53:22
sequence of uh koresh all that stuff to be the opening sequence of midnight leaning into the sun
53:27
well and the chase uh which are two completely different things and i would have expected any
53:33
of the heron ear and black blood stuff to be the last chapter of the war within prepping them to
53:38
join our fight uh in the next expansion but that seems to be yoinked out uh and maybe pushed back
53:47
in here at the beginning of midnight but that also means that i don't know if we're going to
53:51
go from elves to more elf stuff or if we're going to go from elves to titan stuff now right like how
53:58
how big of a jump are we going to get from one story element to another because the other side
54:04
of this and matt pointed this out when i started screaming about this this is part of a trilogy
54:08
right and does that change the rules and how the story progresses because the war within is the
54:14
first part midnight is the second part the last titan or final titan is the the last part but it's
54:20
all meant to be one cohesive thing one cohesive experience spread out across three different uh
54:27
books essentially and does that change how the story elements are laid out and does that change
54:33
how things are really grouped is it a video game that we were used to anymore at that point
54:38
and i don't know right like i don't know because in in past if we started with elves i would have
54:44
assumed that there would be more elf stuff because we would have had to continue that story or it
54:48
would have moved us around in a particular direction like even the war within we start by
54:53
going to uh dornagal and we help the earthen but while we're helping the earthen we learn about the
55:00
black blood we learn about the nerubians we learn about them going crazy and we start chasing the
55:05
black blood and then moving into the second chapter we're still working on uh chasing the
55:10
black blood despite the fact that we just went through uh and did a whole bunch of uh you know
55:16
raid tactics against the nerubians uh or i not nerubians the i can't remember their name of the
55:23
actual specific uh offshoot but we go through and we we free them from this and the and the sort of
55:30
shackles to the flesh that they had there but then we move swiftly from that to tracing the
55:36
black blood to the the goblins and then we drop it to go to koresh and i would have thought that
55:41
that through line would have continued and then led us into that. So I don't know anymore
55:46
And I find that oddly fun, but also nerve wracking at the same time
55:52
because I don't know, but I don't think it's going to be an elf centric thing
55:58
And I don't know that we're ever going to talk about how the Heron here are the missing link between night elves and night trolls
56:04
We might, there might be a night elf that sees them and goes, Hey, you look like a
56:09
what my, our ancestors told us we looked like. at one point or maybe it will be why can't i think of their names the uh the night the night
56:17
born that looks up and says oh yeah we know we we saw this happening like we saw this happening in
56:22
real time we know what this is uh or the amani trolls going hey you look like you got the clan
56:28
markings of the old uh night trolls or or the one night troll that exists because there is one
56:34
night troll that still exists out there recognizes she's in a zandalar and they treat her like an
56:39
an oddity like a pet yeah so like but i mean for that matter too there's also one other thing i
56:45
want to point out because i think it might come up it might not but the uh the the hernia when
56:53
we meet them are protecting roots and they don't ever say what those roots are i speculated that it
57:00
was like getting your roots right i think it's a luna here yeah the the first world tree the one
57:07
that um amon thule wrecked and i remember saying to you before and i think you had brought up
57:13
something along those lines the protective shell for that just that if you go to kazal gar and you
57:18
look at the place it looks like fossilized roots it looks like some giant tree that got ripped in
57:27
half just look where the rookery is yeah it looks like the roots of a giant destroyed world tree
57:33
and it would make sense then that if you go into the world you see more roots and the haranir are
57:40
down there protecting those roots and it would imply that the haranir are everywhere in azeroth
57:44
where there are roots from that ancient world tree to protect yeah they may be they may be the first
57:49
tenders of the first world tree for all we know yeah and we know that there are such a near silver
57:56
moon because all the way back in bow shadow when the four dragons of nightmare were popping out of
58:03
portals those are trees that that fangrel staghelm planted to try and create more world tree like
58:11
defenses it's like staghelm loved world trees it would not surprise me if he knew where all the root
58:19
systems were and he deliberately tried to plant world trees on top of those it would not surprise
58:25
me if the world tree uh that's broken in northrend uh i know the name but i can't remember it
58:32
vordrasil yeah vordrasil um if vordrasil was originally built somewhere where he knew
58:38
the roots of the ancient world tree were the grizzly hills don't look that dissimilar
58:44
from that you could look at the world like the mountains and the grizzly hills kind of give you
58:49
the feeling of a giant tree trunk. And keep in mind that before the sundering
58:54
all these areas were much closer together. Like all these different areas were much
59:01
much closer. And what is now separated areas could have all been the root systems of this
59:08
original massive tree, which we see when we go to Un'Goro in the raid and Ilginoth talks to us
59:16
The other, the other side of that I just want to throw in there is we don't know, Like as much as the top layer of earth has shifted
59:22
we don't know how the underground has shifted or if it has much
59:28
Well, it's got to have shifted long enough for the like land to be separated, but that's all
59:33
And for that matter, it might not have stopped growing down there
59:37
So the tree could have like its root systems could be still growing. And in fact
59:42
it seems very likely that they are because the Haranir are protecting roots
59:46
They're not protecting dead roots. And I remember speculating that the root system here may have been the remnants of, like you said, the first world tree, but that that first world tree may have been literally armor that was set aside across..
59:59
or around the soul of Azeroth, because that feels like what we got as far as the story of the War Within
1:00:07
especially going through the Nerubian area and looking at what they have in that cavernous area that they've settled in
1:00:14
that, again, looks like it's been excavated. It looks like something was ripped out of it
1:00:19
And having that area of the roots that are definitely at the edge of that area
1:00:24
it could have been roots that were pulled out. It could have been an old god. It could have been an old god trying to burrow through the root armor at that particular point
1:00:32
We don't know, but we definitely know that the Heronir know more about it than we do. Let's look at another thing, too
1:00:36
We keep getting told that the Black Blood is the blood of all gods. We know that
1:00:40
There's only one old god I can think of who could have dumped that much blood down there
1:00:46
Yashiraj. Yes. And Yashiraj was yoinked out of the world by Amatul himself, right
1:00:55
Yep. We know that he was ripped out of the world. We don't know what the damage underneath the ground was caused by it
1:01:00
but we do know that. I'm just wondering if maybe he was on a tree. Yeah
1:01:04
Cause Ilganoff is constantly trying to talk about, or, you know, torches to lead our way
1:01:09
He come, he manifests in the raid as a big freaking tree
1:01:14
We fight him in a world tree. What if Ilganoff was the remnant of
1:01:18
of an old gods trying to corrupt the world tree, because that's the thing they were trying to overcome
1:01:24
and that comes back to me on the idea of why we keep binding
1:01:29
elves and elf-like beings to the service of these world trees Why did the dragons make the night elves immortal and bind them to the second world tree Why do the Hyranir have to go around
1:01:43
protecting the root systems of this world tree? Why are there elven bases that touch the Emerald Dream
1:01:51
all over the place throughout the world that link into these trees that Fandral Snaghelm created
1:01:58
I just think there's a lot of interesting stuff you could do with this. I don't know how much of it we're going to see
1:02:03
Yeah. And I mean, and again, I would love to see more of it. I think we're going to see it in the next expansion
1:02:08
I would agree. I think if we're going to see it at any point in time, I don't think it's going to be midnight. I think it's going to be in the last Titan
1:02:13
I think that's more likely to be the case. So I agree with you. But I think that's going to do it for us on time here
1:02:18
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