Up next in 10
Since Paladins were announced as the next class to join the roster in Diablo 4 in its next expansion Lord of Hatred -- and already playable with preorder -- Matt and Joe sat down this week to chat about both, but mostly Paladins and their history within the franchise. First, they dive into the place of Paladins within the franchise as contrasted by other classes. Blizzard seems to be cribbing heavily from Diablo 2, with almost all the classes from that game now available in D4. They touch on Paladins from D2, their famous fall, and how that led to the Crusaders from Diablo 3.
The story we see in the cinematic also has our Paladin facing off against Mephisto while he inhabits Akarat's body, which he possessed at the end of the previous expansion, Vessel of Hatred. Akarat being one of the founders of the faith the Paladin belongs to, this is a deeply interesting contrast -- as well as a personal religious crisis in the making.
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0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, round table free form discussion about lore in your favorite media. I am your host Joe
0:15
Pres, one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard launch and I've got my marvelous co-host with me today, Matt Rossy. How you doing today, Matt?
0:22
I'm not surprised but yet surprised about what we're going to be talking.
0:27
Yeah, we're going to we'll get into the the the the details about this a little bit here and then I'm sure we'll talk
0:33
about it on the main cast. Uh but before we get into that, I do want to remind everybody that uh if you have questions
0:39
or a topic you want us to cover on this or any of our podcasts, be sure to send those in. You can send them into
0:44
podcasterwatch.com. We ask that you specify the show that it is for and the subject line as well as any special pronunciation of your name.
0:51
Uh if you want to hit us up on Discord instead of sending us an email, you can go ahead and do so. We have the Q and
0:56
Podcast questions channel. It's open for everyone. Uh same rules apply. And if you are a Patreon subscriber, we have
1:02
the Patreon Q and podcast questions channel where we tend to look there first as always saying thank you for helping us keep the lights on. Uh so
1:10
this is going to be a Diablo episode. Uh and particularly because of recent news that we got. Um while we don't know a
1:17
whole lot about the expansion quite yet, Diablo I is getting another expansion which we did know was going to happen.
1:23
The story is continuing. Um, yeah, pretty much the previous expansion that definitely set it up. I mean,
1:30
practically teed it up. Yeah, we're we're hunting we're hunting Methista, the Lord of Hatred. Um, and we
1:35
are essentially going after him in whatever form or body, which again,
1:42
listen to some of our previous episodes. We can talk about the debate of it, uh, of whether or not is the actual body of
1:47
Acarat uh, or not. Uh, but we did learn that
1:53
we're going to be getting two new playable classes. One was announced one, we can kind of guess where we're going.
2:01
Um, but if you pre-ordered the expansion now, you get to play it well now. Uh,
2:06
and it is one that everybody has been asking for since Diablo II released the Paladin. Now, the reason that we say
2:14
that we're surprised, also not surprised, is essentially we are going
2:20
backwards towards Diablo II's class structure almost. Um, looking at the playable classes in
2:28
Diablo I, they're they're really it really is basically Diablo II with one
2:35
exception right now. Really? Yeah. The the the spirit born or is that what they're called? Spiritorn.
2:40
Spirit. Spirit caller. Okay. Yeah, I don't play one. They're really good. I played one for like a like a week and
2:47
realized I am not set up for this kind of fighting style. So,
2:53
yeah, cuz right now the the main classes that we have access to besides the spirit the spirit um or spirit caller
2:59
spirit is spiritorn. You were right. Um is we have the barbarian which was present in Diablo II, druid which was an
3:07
expansion character in Diablo. Necromancer, which was around in Diablo, Rogue, but I would argue was also around
3:13
in Diablo II because technically the assassin, we've we talked about that in the links between the two of those. Um,
3:20
but definitely there sorcerer, which was in Diablo I. And now we're getting the
3:25
Paladin. The only one we're missing is the Amazon. Uh, which we're pretty sure
3:31
it kind of rolled into the rogue, too, but I think they're going to actually bring it back as an actual class. Yeah. And I think the rogue is more like
3:37
to me it at least plays or at least calls mech more to the assassin from Diablo II when the assassin and the
3:43
druid were released as expansion classes. Um but we think we're going to Sco Isles. We know we're going to the
3:49
Sco the Sco Isles. Well, let me rephrase that. We're going to Sco. They have not
3:54
specified if we're going to the entire island chain or a specific island in that area because Scoos is actually a uh
4:02
chain of four different islands uh that have not been heard of or heard from
4:08
since before Diablo II at this point. Um, yeah, there was brief there's a brief
4:13
mention of them obviously in Diablo II, but there's a brief mention of them in Diablo II as well when uh Tyel is
4:20
talking to the then young and optimistic Laurath. Um, and he's like, "Yeah, we've
4:26
not haven't heard anything from our people we sent to the Scoases. That's the last time they were mentioned." Um,
4:32
so we know we're going there and we're gonna probably get something to do with the Amazon. Whether it is actually the
4:37
Amazon or a flavor of a different version of the Amazon, we don't know. Uh but we did get the Diablo I paladin and
4:44
it it isn't surprising because with Meistoa on the rise and gaining power
4:51
and influence over the world of Sanctuary, you kind of want the people that already faced him once, right?
4:57
you're you're looking at uh the the heroes or the orders that existed during
5:03
the time when his power was high and they're back and the paladin is probably
5:09
closest to that I guess would be the the best way to put it. Uh and I I I don't know if you have a
5:16
particular point you want to start at, Matt. Um but paladin is a a pretty catch-all term in Diablo terms, right?
5:23
There's many orders that were uh essentially holy knights. Uh whether
5:29
they served the west marches or uh whatever sect or order they were from, they were kind of a little bit
5:35
widespread. Correct. Yeah. I mean the the thing is is that essentially uh Paladin orders
5:41
essentially got founded right around the time that Rakkes decided to leave uh you
5:46
know to to leave you know Kumshan and head towards invading you know what is
5:52
technically the west. uh he he founded, you know, West March was the country he
5:57
founded. And Ris was actually, according to what we discover in Diablo II, Rakis
6:03
was trying to find anything he could about the, you know, the the Nephilim,
6:10
like he was looking for an ancient Nephilim city and civilization. Joe and I have talked in the past about how all
6:15
these weird subterranean ruins we're running into in Diablo I have a certain
6:20
um resonance with the Nephilim. It it feels like the Nephilim are involved in some way. And all this stuff about
6:26
blood, blood being power, there's that that whole religious order um that got
6:33
founded that we we fight in Diablo 4 that are all about blood. They have like
6:38
little blood things. They got vampire motifs. So the Paladin orders originally
6:45
were founded by the Zacharoom and were kind of just a it was at the time it was
6:50
just an you know these are the people who are the most who have the most faith in the teachings of Zacharoom. They the
6:57
most faith in Akarat the most faith in in you know the holy night the holy power that Akarat talked about. Um
7:06
but after Rakis invaded West March two things happened. One of which was that
7:11
um Meisto had by this time essentially inhabited the body of a Quagen um which
7:18
he would continue to do like each new Quagen would get possessed by Meisto
7:24
over the course of a thousand. Um and so the paladins in in West March were
7:29
isolated because they weren't part of the you know the same structure anymore.
7:35
They were like half a world away, but they were still part of the Zacharim faith. So, they were still affected by
7:41
this. It really ended up happening is that the the fragmentation of the Paladin orders was all part of Mefisto's
7:49
structured attempt to corrupt as many aspects of the Zacharim faith as he could. And we see the signs of it all
7:56
over the the next three Diablo. From Diablo II to Diablo I, the signs of what
8:02
happened to the Paladins is all over the place. Um, even even the history of the crusaders in Diablo III uh is part and parcel with
8:11
the the lineage of Paladins, right? And actually a reaction to it. Yeah, absolutely. Um the the crusaders and
8:19
even the Templars for that matter because the Templars that we see in in Diablo II as you know they're not
8:24
playable but you have a follower who's a Templar and you end up going to the head of the Templar order. That order was
8:32
basically created by people who after the fall a after you, you know, see that
8:38
the Zacharoom are being led by Meisto in Diablo II, it's some 40 or 50 years
8:44
later that Diablo II happens and by that time everything in Diablo, like
8:50
everybody in Diablo II is really not sure about the Zacharoom anymore. like village priests are like, I have no idea
8:57
if I should be praying, you know, to to Acarat or not. Uh you even run into that one guy who's like, you know, we're all
9:02
doomed. There's no way. We can't possibly survive. Um right right in the first village, New Tristram, when you go
9:08
to New Trist, there's a guy right there, uh the the village priest, who's just straight up, you know, saying, "Nope,
9:13
we're all doomed." So, as a result of that, the Templars basically decided, "No, you can't be Paladins can't be
9:19
good. we have to basically burn our pasts away so we don't know anything
9:25
about who we are or what we may have done. And that's a direct reaction to what Mephisto taking over uh the Quhagen
9:34
does to pretty much the entire Zacharim religion, but especially the Paladins because in a in a very real sense,
9:40
Paladins are the the tip of the spear for Zachar. They're the the ones who go
9:45
forth and and fight whatever needs to be fought. They're the ones who protect the faith. They're the ones who guard sites
9:54
like the soul stone chambers. So, a lot of paladins are the ones who get infected first. Uh, and it it's a
10:02
really kind of an astonishingly comprehensive, you know, you know,
10:08
corruption path. But there still were paladins who were perfectly, you know, they were faithful. They didn't bend,
10:15
they didn't break, and they didn't serve meto, which only made it worse for them
10:20
when they found out so much of the structure that they were, you know, considered the the scaffolding of their
10:27
faith was was rotten. And since there's a paladin in the original Diablo II, I
10:33
mean, Diablo II, I'm sorry, my bad. Um, since there's a paladin involved in that and he's a West March paladin, um, we
10:41
don't we never got a real indepth background on that that person, not like some of the others. Like, we we
10:46
know who the necromancer from Diablo I was. We we know who the uh, you know,
10:53
the the Amazon, we know her name, Cassia. We don't I don't think we have anything about the uh the Paladin from
10:59
that. I'm kind of hoping we get something, quite frankly. Yeah. So, but that is sort of it's sort
11:05
of the gap because we we know about literally everyone else uh in Diablo II like their their history
11:12
and their sort of the background and their legacy I guess would be the best way to put it except for the Paladin. Um
11:20
well, I mean you could also say I don't think we actually have we don't have everybody. I think don't think we know much about the barbarian because they
11:27
they changed their mind on what the barbarian was going to be. Mhm. So, we don't really know much about the barbarian, but in the case of the
11:33
paladin, it's really interesting because not knowing much about that person, when
11:39
any paladin who was part of that group, if you assume that the playable classes from Diablo were all involved in in
11:47
helping Tyel against the the the three brothers, the the three, you know, primevals, whatever you want to call
11:53
them. Uh if we assume that then whilst the Zacharoom were absolutely corrupt,
11:59
it was a Zacharoom paladin who helped stop them. And it's kind of wild that we
12:04
don't know much about that person except the hint that they're the one that took
12:10
his body like and this is again in Diablo 4. There's a hint that one of the paladins, Zacharim, took the body of the
12:17
Quay Hagen back to the ancestral tomb of their of Quay Hoggins and we go there to
12:25
help rebuild the soul stone with the power of Meisto in it because it's close enough to use it on Lilith only for it
12:32
to then actually get used on Meisto as part of Meisto's plan, it seems. And
12:37
that to me implies something about like all these different paladins who were
12:42
falling to to Meesto's corruption. Why were they sus more susceptible to him? Like not just because he was there.
12:49
What's going on with that? So go ahead, Joe. So I I I've been thinking about this a little bit and I think there's a couple things at play here. Uh, one, I think
12:57
one of the reasons we don't hear much about the Paladins and everything we do here is like these sort of like
13:04
whispered clips uh or these like tiny little pieces uh is because I think the
13:11
fall of the Paladins is fairly widely known, right? So I think
13:16
Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you and which is I think important because in the opening scene of the trailer for the
13:24
the Lord of Hatred expansion, one of the things that's happening is the Paladin, the one that you are going to play, uh
13:31
is literally digging up their vestments from where they have buried it on their farmland. Um, and I think that is is
13:39
very important and telling in that because again the paladins once a symbol
13:45
of faith, a symbol of strength and conviction against the darkness
13:50
has sort of been perverted. And we learn about that through uh Johanna and uh the
13:55
the crusader. We learn about that through some of the small uh snippets we see and hear in Diablo as for as we lead
14:03
up to, you know, making the soul stone. Uh we learn a little bit about that on our way to uh Acarat's tomb. Not a a
14:10
lot, not in death, but like these little tiny things that people have sort of lost faith in holy warriors in general.
14:18
And which is why, you know, the Church of Light that Anarius had at the during
14:24
the beginning of Diablo I, they weren't paladins. He went out of his way
14:29
essentially to not call them paladins, right? They're they're warriors.
14:35
But you don't see them wielding miracles. You don't see them wielding magic of faith like the paladins do.
14:43
They're just men. And I think that's important because going into the sort of
14:48
lore of the paladins, calling them holy warriors is not just a title. They use
14:55
holy magic. And that holy magic is essentially human or nephilim versions
15:02
of the same type of miracles that the angels wield. Uh just done through
15:07
essentially their sacrifice and their faith. Uh the weapons that they wield
15:13
are bathed in the blood of the paladin. Uh the that's how they infuse it with
15:18
the holy power. And they think it's an act of faith. It could be an act of being, you know, Nephilim at the time.
15:24
uh or or children of the Nephilim. Again, it always comes back to the blood. We talked about this before, but
15:30
the blood activates their ability to channel their faith into things like the hammers that fly through the air or the
15:36
uh angelic wings and lashing that they that they crash through the battlefield with.
15:43
This I think is also important because there's a level of zealatry involved in being a paladin, right? So going back to
15:50
their their roots, paladins give don't they they sort of eskew any mortal
15:57
temptation and the reason that they do so is because any temptation that they
16:02
give into could be false lights. It could be demons masquerading as heavenly
16:08
beings. um they always sort of like live in fear of that because again their zealatry is
16:16
very very much next door to hatred. Right? These two things and we see we see this
16:22
in the real world too. Zealatry can be weaponized as hatred. they do not like
16:27
the demons that that it's it's a it's a skipping a jump from from I'm doing my
16:34
holy warrior uh best to you know I'm just going to give into this hatred and slaughter this entire town um because
16:40
they all serve they all served a demon. Yeah. And there's even like there's several like quests in Diablo I. Uh, one
16:47
that always comes to mind is the one where you go to a village and the Zacharoom inquisitors have come and
16:53
ultimately because the people in town have a witch who talks to the nature
16:58
spirits of the uh of the swamp. They burn the entire village and all the
17:04
people in it just to get him to come out and stop them so they can kill him. And
17:09
that's the kind of decision that you look at that and from, you know, our perspective, it's like, you know, oh,
17:15
this is horrible. It's monstrous. But it would be pretty easy to convince somebody that this guy serves demons.
17:22
Well, and he has to be stopped or, you know, even even easier. Diablo I literally
17:29
have a the mercenary that we work with, right? One of the mercenaries that you can possibly work with is a hybrid demon
17:36
human child, right? Am I wrong? Yep. No, you're absolutely right. I I don't know if he's I don't know if he's
17:41
hybrid or possessed. I can't remember, but he's definitely got a demon involved in him. So, it it at that I think he's a hybrid.
17:49
I think he's like the the son of like somebody who was possessed very much in the way that Leo uh Leah essentially
17:54
was. Um but you you you take a a old school
17:59
paladin, you point that out and then what happens, right? It's it's again we
18:08
not saying that paladins are evil. There are definitely dark paladins, but it's again that zealatry can be weaponized in
18:15
a way that's subtle, in a way that that seems okay. Go ahead. I mean, all of the the the
18:22
demon lords, even the the three and four, all of them, they they embody
18:28
something that is not inherently evil, but they're the evil manifestation of
18:33
it. And one of the things that always comes to mind for me is destruction
18:39
sounds like it's always bad, but you can't build something without destroying
18:44
the area you're going to build it in. You know, destruction doesn't have to be bad, but it obviously has many bad
18:51
connotations. Um, fear, I mean, fear is, you know, fear, horror, terror. These
18:59
are emotions that don't just exist to make us feel bad or to give us chills.
19:04
It's a survival thing. Being afraid can keep you alive. If you're, you know,
19:09
send if fear galvanizes you and sends you sprinting out of an area before the bad thing happens, fear just helped you.
19:16
Hatred by itself is not inherently evil. It depends entirely on if you let hatred
19:22
overwhelm you and what it is you hate. Like if you know, you know, I hate cherry pie. Well, that's not evil. It's
19:29
just weird. Um, just don't eat it. It's very existence me. Okay, you're kind of
19:34
you're getting out of here, Hank. You're you're going too far. But, you know, say you hate injustice. Is that bad? Is it
19:41
bad to not want people to be falsely accused? Is it bad to want to keep make sure that people are not oppressed or
19:47
downtrodden? No. But once you start burning villages, maybe you've gone too
19:53
far there. It and it it's it's fascinating because what it does is illustrate that there is both angelic
19:58
and demonic in all mortal beings in this in this setting. All humans except for
20:05
the ones who were like an ex angel who got turned into a mortal. He doesn't have any demon in him. But every other
20:11
person, every human you meet and every nephilim you meet when you do meet them, they have as much potential for evil as
20:18
good in them. And that includes every paladin you're going to run into. The power that they draw is not is almost
20:26
divorced from a moral component. It's almost beyond evil or good. It's just
20:32
the power of creation. It's the power of the world stone. It's the power of, you know, the heavens themselves. Not the
20:39
angels from the heavens, but the heaven, the actual place that is built around the crystal arch that is its own realm
20:46
of existence. That's the kind of thing you have to think about when you think about paladins. They're just people. And
20:52
there are people who can do these things that that like rival the works of angels
20:57
and and of some demons. When you get a dark paladin, they can do some terrifying things. And it's all based
21:03
around their humanity. The fact that they have the potential to be the nicest, kindest, gentlest person and to
21:10
be a horrific nightmare. And it's up to them how they use both potentials because they have free will. They don't
21:17
have to do. They can meet fire with fire without burning themselves, but they
21:22
don't always pull it off. Sometimes they do burn them. And I think a lot of the corruption arc of Mefisto is that his
21:29
hatred, like Joe just pointed out, his hatred is very close to what they already feel for demons and the demonic.
21:36
It's not that hard to to get tendrils in. And like whispering, wouldn't it all just be better if you just killed
21:41
everything? Just wipe them out. That way you don't have to worry about any of them being demons. Well, yeah. And think about and think
21:46
about it this way too, right? Like it's it's the subtle the subtle pushes of like you are a human. You live in a land
21:53
corrupted by demons or you know you live in a land that's been under siege by demons for so long. And it's if you've
22:00
ever watched supernatural, they have a uh a virus, a demonic virus, uh the
22:07
Crotoa virus, and it gets into people and once it gets into them, they're essentially demons, even though they're
22:14
not actually demons. Um, it's so easy to convince somebody that is fighting
22:20
against hatred and has seen all of the random awful things that Meisto and the
22:26
primevalss have done because they did. They were there for a lot of a lot of the stuff that happened afterwards and
22:32
the uh sort of the implosion of humanity. It's not that hard to say, look, they're eating from a land that
22:38
was soaked in hatred. They're going to ingest that demonic influence. you need
22:43
to cleanse them, right? It's it's just and that's actually a really big part of Diablo II is how the the game very
22:51
subtly at first points out that there's just so much of Meisto having scarred
22:57
this land for so many years cuz he was in the Quihogen like he was replacing Quihog Hoggins for centuries.
23:04
Yeah. And and and that's the other thing too, right? So, like let's let's talk about that a little bit. Uh cuz one of
23:10
the things that I think is important about paladins is going back into the idea that the paladin orders all shared
23:16
in common at least in theory. Um the the sort of the devotion this devout
23:23
devotion to the teachings of Acarat which will be important later. um and
23:29
that spread the and spreading of the Zacharoom faith like these were essentially devotees to this faith. So
23:37
you take somebody who in this case the quagen who is you know how do how do you
23:43
how do he's a fantasy pope. Yeah. Basically he's he's Diablo pope um who is now possessed by this lord of
23:50
hatred. And now again you go back to that subtle manipulation of of this
23:55
faith and the people who were devoted to the Zacharim faith in Acarat again that
24:01
I come back to that zealatry that that that sort of black and white view of the world. Um and it's it's just generations
24:09
upon generations upon generations of subtly twisting the words of Acura to serve your needs.
24:17
And it it it doesn't start with a, you know, this is a flower and then the next
24:23
time is this actually isn't a flower. This is a bug. And it's it's much more
24:32
slow than that. And when you are methanone, you or meto you can you can
24:37
spend an eternity subtly changing that message. It goes from being this is a
24:42
red flower to this is a blue flower to this is a purple flower to this is a
24:47
black flower to this is a symbol of death to this is a symbol of corruption
24:52
to this is a symbol of demonic influence and you have all of this time to do that
24:59
and you do it so slowly that no one notices until it's too late and so now
25:07
we get to I think one of the more interesting aspects of it and why we are
25:12
both surprised and not surprised is in Diablo II. The possession essentially of
25:18
Meista to the body of Acarat is incredibly dangerous. We don't know what
25:24
power that gives him access to. We don't know what knowledge that gives him access to. We do know that it allowed
25:31
him to corrupt the spirit world around him. uh it did give him essentially a new
25:37
physical vessel to go out into the world in which he did not really have before.
25:43
Um and that you know um what's her name? Mel. Yeah. Uh was Mel.
25:49
Nel, excuse me. Uh Nel was doing better than you would expect at keeping him at
25:56
bay. Uh not perfect because she's still a child. Uh, but he couldn't get her to
26:03
essentially agree. But an empty vessel of a body that's been sitting in the spirit world for how long ago did Acarat
26:11
die? Oh, yeah. We're talking before the uh the arrival of the three evils to
26:18
sanctuary, which is a roughly a thousand years. Yeah. And I mean I think there's even a a story about it which is uh when Aar
26:24
came to Nantu like there there's a whole thing about this but he's been essentially steeping in the tea of the
26:31
spirit realm which we learn during the last expansion is essentially infinite
26:37
possibility in a pocket world that is neither touched by heaven nor hell. And that by
26:43
itself is fascinating cuz now Mefisto has access to power that in theory kind
26:50
of only the Nephilim had before. So you seeing this and I don't know how the
26:55
paladin gets drawn back into the conflict but it would make sense that any remaining members of the order or
27:01
those that are keeping the true tenants of faith of the the basically the uh
27:08
zakum faith the teachings of aat at heart would see this as not only
27:13
devastating to the world but even more of a personal affront right because not
27:18
only was methan key in corrupting their faith before and using their people against themselves and breaking the
27:26
world and breaking the faith. But now he's masquerading as Acarat, right? And
27:31
Acarat is is we live in a time of stories, I guess, in Diablo I is the best way that I can put it. Acarat is a
27:38
being of legend and myth. Mhm. Whether or not we know that he existed, we know that he had great
27:44
power, but to the people of today's and age, he's he's essentially Diablo Jesus.
27:49
I I don't know other way to put it. And yeah, that's what they're going for. And that is incredibly dangerous to have
27:57
Mephista in that body walking around. Statues and paintings of Acarat still
28:04
exist. His visage is known, albeit in mythic proportions. To have somebody
28:11
show up in that body, imagine what damage he could do. Now, you saw what he
28:17
did as OK Hogan. We saw how much damage Lilith did in a very short amount of
28:23
time with the people in the like the opening village sequence alone. What can her father do? A prime evil in the body
28:31
of Acurat with all the power of the spirit realm and infinite possibility to
28:37
wart people's reality and to make them give into their hatred even quicker
28:42
because of the mythic figure he's now inhabiting. It is. Yeah. You almost don't even need to have the spirit world power be an issue.
28:50
Yeah. Like even if you don't consider that for a second, the fact that he is he he's for all
28:57
intents and purposes any most people who talk to him would would probably very quickly come to believe that he is
29:02
Akarat. He looks like Akarat. He knows how to talk like Akarat. See, here's the other thing too about Akarat that makes this
29:08
all very interesting. Akarat was born from Zeans Saul. He was born in Zeans.
29:15
Uh his mother was from Nhantu. His father was a a Zian. And the reason that
29:21
his mother was in Zeans was because during the time of the exile before the
29:28
three primevals were put into soul stones, Mephisto's existence was corrupting the whole area.
29:35
It was corrupting Nantu. It it was corrupting everything. I think they even called it they refer
29:40
to it as the seeds of hatred, right? Yep. And he was born in exile
29:45
essentially from uh Nantu. He his mother was had run away. They were up in Zansal which was
29:53
relatively isolated. As a result of all this he is a figure that two people is
29:59
the opposite of Mefista. like he came down from Zansal and walked home and
30:07
from Kalaman like all the way you know every at the time keep in mind that you know we're talking about a unified
30:13
nation like this was an empire and as a result of his trek down from Zeans to
30:20
Nantu he broke as far as we could tell the Zakaroon made common cause with the
30:26
mages of the Harajram who were trying to stop the three prime evils And it was to
30:32
them to the to the newborn Zacharum faith that they entrusted the soul stone
30:38
with Nefisto in it because of the reputation that Acarat had created that for the Zacharum as enemies of of hell.
30:48
This it's the perfect disguise. It's like it's literally like if Jesus shows
30:54
up tomorrow and starts telling people, you know, we got to band together and and defeat modern evil. And now what or
31:01
he points you at is modern evil. He tells you what's wrong. You're just going to listen to it. And so many
31:08
people even after the the you know exposure of Meistoagen, so many people grew up in the Zacharoom
31:16
faith. I mean the church of light is just basically a bad copy of the Zachar. And of course, they're also a bad copy
31:22
of the original time that uh Inarius created a big religion which then
31:29
affected the formation of the Zacharum. So, it's chicken in an egg here. But nevertheless, it's it's like it's the
31:36
perfect way to hide what you're trying to do. You know, it's not just paladins that can be swayed to their hatred by an
31:43
appeal to what they believe is goodness. Like, you know, what's the old saying? Nobody ever thinks they're the villain
31:48
of their own story. Yeah. Everybody thinks they're the hero of their own story. Yeah. And that's another reason why I
31:55
think it's not surprising that paladins are coming back. And in a way, it's a great opportunity because you can have
32:00
the paladin as somebody who lives on the edge of that of what Joe was talking
32:06
about the zealatry. You, you know, it's if you've ever been so angry that you
32:12
had to stop and contain yourself, you know how hatred can fester. You know
32:17
what it's like, you know, when Mr. Hand starts turning into Mr. Fist and
32:23
Paladins, the paladins that are like digging up their old vestments here. Like if you watch the trailer, you see
32:28
he's literally digging up his old vestments. This guy would be very old. This is not a young person. Like if male
32:34
or female paladin, you're you're you're either you're not a young person or you are the child or grandchild of an
32:42
original paladin who, you know, basically has somehow imparted what they
32:47
believed to you. Either way, you have experience with with how to fight hatred
32:53
because that's what they did the last time. They managed to beat him. They beat me. They beat all three of them.
32:59
like for all that they managed to get around it and ended up escaping their soul stones and so forth, they did lose
33:05
to the Harajim and they did lose to the people of, you know, the Zacharum faith.
33:12
So, in a weird sort of way, it's like only a paladin can come back to show you, okay, you know what, you can hate
33:19
him all you want without giving him any power. There is a way to do this and I
33:24
will show you it. And that that's not at the same time they this is a thing that the paladins would have learned through
33:31
failure because we see this you know in Diablo I you end up fighting with all
33:37
these like twisted spirits of fallen paladins you know that paladins lost
33:43
this internal battle. So the fact that these paladins are coming back implies
33:48
that these are the ones that didn't fall that didn't buy into what Z what Zakarum
33:55
controlled by Meisto was selling and they are probably the only ones who would look at Acarat and know it's not
34:01
really Aarat you know like we know because we played the previous expansion but they would just know they would know
34:08
nope we're not doing this again you know and in a way it would be a real call to arms for them so I I'm not surprised,
34:15
but I am also surprised because it's been so long. Diablo II was a very long time ago. Like at one point we meet that
34:22
guy. Um he was the one who actually like, you know, helped you get to Traven
34:27
Colin, the original Diablo II, and then he's like found you find him drunk in an innund
34:34
years later. And he thinks you're Decarded Kane. He thinks Laurath is Decard Kane and and you take you end up
34:40
getting the poor guy killed. But, you know, the whole deal is it's been this this such a long time. So, that's why I
34:46
was surprised. That's for me the amount of time it's been since the Paladins were anything. It's it's like what what
34:52
what are we going to are we going to learn anything here? Like are there going to be like different paladin orders? Are the crusaders and and
35:00
templars going to be folded in? Because of the the rogues did that? Yeah. In Diablo I they folded in multiple
35:06
different groups. Are they going to do that with Paladins? and what will that mean for the story?
35:13
Uh, I definitely want to see like I want to see if they bring in like any official lore on who the Diablo I
35:20
paladin was. Yeah, I think they almost have to, right? Like because Yeah, you you they have to,
35:27
especially if that's supposed to be him, which I mean I I I would be very surprised if it is.
35:33
Yeah, me too. I would be because I mean the necromancer, that's one thing. They're I mean necromancers are weird and wibbly wobbly. uh death is
35:40
sort of like not a thing for them, but it is. But yeah, they they can hang out for a while. They can hang out for a while, but
35:49
we I it would be interesting if it is or if it was somebody in his line, right?
35:56
Something like a a legacy passed down like the paladin. And that would make more sense. That
36:02
would make more sense because you can choose, you know, stuff like your gender. Um so yeah, that would actually make
36:08
more sense for me. So, at least this is the way that I'm seeing it. And again, I don't know. I have not played it, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the
36:14
game story-wise for it yet. So, I think all of it is going to be contained in the expansion. Um, but you likely are
36:22
supposed to be like part of that lineage, part of that tradition in sort of the same way that the Crusaders did
36:28
where when they picked up the armor, they adopted that name, right? They carried that name forward.
36:35
That was the legacy. except instead of being, you know, a a crusader, an
36:40
apprentice, or a knight and a squire, it's in this case potentially familiar,
36:46
where maybe it's their their grandparent, maybe it's their father that or or that that originally fought
36:52
against the prime evils in Diablo II and then retired to a world cuz relatively
36:59
speaking, the time between Diablo II and Diablo III wasn't awful. it compar
37:05
compared to some of the other history of the world. Yeah. For that for that year for that
37:10
period of time it was somewhat at peace in and people were able to prosper. The west march was definitely solidified
37:16
like farmers were able to actually farm and exist. So it it wouldn't be outside
37:23
of the realm of possibility that seeing a world in which the corruption had been there that the paladin order had been
37:30
bismerched seeing the events that took place uh you know in that world and having defeated
37:37
all of the primevals literally all of the primevals retiring but keeping the
37:43
story alive keeping the faith alive because that's another thing that we we sort of learn in Diablo 3 and Diablo
37:51
before is that the Zach room faith is not erased. It's it's definitely shifted
37:56
over the years, but the tenants still exist. And even with humanity mostly
38:02
decimated between Diablo III and Diablo I, the faith of the those that are are faithful to Acarat still exists. They
38:08
still utter prayers to to Acarat. It may not be as widespread as it was before,
38:14
but it still exists. So, it actually I would argue that it is as widespread. It's just that it is it's
38:22
almost like thanks to all the destruction that happened, there's a lot of forgetfulness. Yeah.
38:27
There's a lot of stuff that's just you're you're if you're living in like say New Tristram in Diablo II, you don't
38:34
you know, you're not very connected to the to the, you know, the movers and shakers who control the destiny of
38:40
empires. You're just a a parish priest who's just trying to get his people to, you know, not be demons or not, you
38:48
know, get eaten by demons. There there's a a lot that is forgotten. I do want to talk about something though that because
38:54
this all this talk about this has got me thinking about this one thing. There's a there's a mystery at the heart of the
38:59
Zacharim faith and and of Acarat that we didn't get an answer to in in um vessel
39:06
of hatred and it is very simply who was Yarius? Yeah. So I think this is going to get tied
39:13
into the Paladins things because here's here's the the thing that keeps coming to my mind. Akarat started all this
39:19
because he had an image uh he has like a like a a series of of I don't want to
39:25
say hallucinations visions I guess would be the right word of this being that was a manifestation of the force
39:34
that created everything and that this thing helped him get an understanding of
39:40
humanity's unique place within the cosmos and connected by light. He calls
39:47
it this the name Zakarum comes from the word zakara which means light and so it
39:52
was the light of of creation that he believed was was rooted in everything
39:58
every living thing on sanctuary. Go ahead. I was going to say in Urias uh
40:04
essentially if I remember correctly and and I want you to keep me honest on this. I think like during the sin war,
40:10
wasn't when wasn't that when Yarius supposedly tried to bring the tenants of the light or Zakarum to humanity?
40:17
Oh, I mean that's what Decker Kane thought, but but he also didn't think Zarius was a person. He I mean was an
40:22
angel. He thought Yarius was Odysian. That Odysian's sacrifice where he basically wipes himself out of existence
40:30
created what um Akarat saw. Um, and
40:35
that's it's also interesting that there's no mention of an angel in the
40:40
letter that you read when you're trying to Oh, wait a minute. Isn't that where Uras
40:45
translates to son of light or something like that? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Sorry.
40:51
One possibility. Son of light is Yurius. Um, and you know, is it really Some
40:59
people think it's an angel. I I keep going back to this because one of the things in in vessel of hatred is there's
41:05
at no point does Zacharat talk about talking to an angel to called talks
41:11
about his philosophies and his understandings he doesn't talk about an angel. Mhm. Now does that mean that he didn't see
41:18
one? Does that mean he didn't think about one? Uh maybe. But maybe they
41:24
didn't think of them as an angel. Um, and since he talks about this this force
41:29
of creation that that lives in everybody, I keep going back to the fact that we keep hearing about this as a
41:35
nephilim. Mhm. Right. And what are Nephilim if not the combination of of, you know, angel and
41:42
demon. They are light and darkness, uh, heaven and hell. They have the potential
41:48
to be like Anu who divided itself into
41:54
the universe. And the the primordial Anu was the he was the one who left behind
42:00
the world stone which is what created Sanctuary which is what Tyel destroyed
42:06
at the end of Diablo II. And it's not impossible to wonder if that's what
42:13
Akarat saw. But if it is, that means paladins are ultimately powered not by
42:19
heaven or hell, but by the pure creation
42:24
that you know that pre-existed them. Um, and because every every Nephilim could
42:30
tap into that power and every human even if they can't tap into it still is an heir to it that it's inside everybody um
42:37
in a very real way. You have to wonder if this is like another echo of the sin war.
42:43
Yeah. You know what? And it would make sense though too because that's also going back to the basic tenants of the paladin faith, right? Where they don't
42:51
they don't call worship they don't call an angel. They don't call worship of a person. And even their basic tenants like one of
42:57
the things we literally just talked about it they must never succumb to the worldly temptations lest they risk being deceived into following false lights,
43:04
demons masquerading as heavenly beings. There's got to be a reason for that. And
43:09
I think that may have been part of Acro's original. Go ahead. I think that this this the thing with
43:16
the Quay Hogan is an example of that. Yeah, 100%. The demon and I think that we all we
43:23
really know about the time before it when the when the the three great evils were rampaging across Sanctuary was that
43:30
they were they did lots of evil stuff in lots of different places. I am positive
43:35
that Meisto has been doing this corrupting holy people thing way before
43:41
he got stuck in a soul stone. Oh yeah, for sure. It's just part of his shtick. It's part of his hatred thing. Everybody
43:47
has hates. Use everybody. You can go back to the sin word for that. Yeah. And also, what's the other thing
43:54
to think about when we think about what Meisto does as opposed to the other primevals is that unlike the other
43:59
primevals, Mephisto is related to all of us. Yeah. He literally Grandpa.
44:05
Yeah. Well, yeah. Grandpa Evil. Grandpa Evil. Man, that's a weird thought. Yeah. Isn't it? But yeah, and if the
44:13
idea that Tyel is Zenarius's father, I'm kidding. I am kidding, guys. Relax. Um,
44:19
but it is also weird to think about the fact that, you know, we don't know anything else about Yarius or if Yarius
44:25
ever exists or if it's just an idea. It might be a title for what Zacharoon was
44:32
all about, you know, becoming, you know, aware of the light of creation. Uh, so yeah, there's a ton of really
44:38
interesting conceptions here. I really think that the Paladin is the good class to bring in for this. Uh, if anything,
44:45
it feels like we're at a point in the story where the return of the Paladin is almost the return of like it's like when
44:51
Gandalf shows up, you know, I was literally just going to say that.
44:56
Yeah. Like you you kind of need at this point we've had enough Yeah. We've had enough cynicism. We've had enough
45:02
darkness. We need something that is just straight up light. Well, and it's not even just that. It's
45:08
it's it's I think it's starting to represent the turning of the tide, right? Because when we leave
45:13
Yeah. the last expansion, we are at an extraordinarily low point, right?
45:19
Acarat's body has been claimed. Um with Fisto is essentially free to walk around
45:25
Sanctuary. His influence is being felt. It had been bubbling up to that point the entire time we had been essentially
45:31
playing the expansion. uh to the point where you know people are making deals with trees that you know uh maybe they
45:38
shouldn't have um just to get information in order to try to save the world uh because Misto is that bad and
45:45
you look at it now and it's like a paladin has a chance to do a couple things. One, I think it represents a
45:52
return to essentially the upswing of of warriors of light of reminding people of
45:59
their essential like that power that's in them to stave off hatred, bringing
46:05
back the core tenants of the actual uh Zachar faith, the actual teachings of
46:11
Acarat, which again in Nhatu are also present and talked about pretty
46:16
frequently uh in the course of that expansion. Yeah, he is of Nahu.
46:22
He is of Nantu. You know when we talk about him, he's famous for the faith being spread
46:28
throughout Kystan. Yes. But it's Travenal was always in Nantu.
46:34
It it is a it is a Nantu city. It's just right it was right on the border with Kajistan. And to be to be fair at that
46:41
time Kajistan and Nantu were essentially one thing. They were very different
46:47
culturally, but they were both within this, you know, practically world spanning empire at this point.
46:52
Yeah. But, and as a result, uh, I just want to say I think we going back, I
46:58
really do think we're going to see some interesting stuff with Paladins here because I think it's not an accident
47:04
that when he when he died, Akarat deliberately wanted his body in the
47:10
spirit world. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. um other other elements of it like one of the
47:16
other reasons I think it's important that the paladin is back at this time is the church of light is broken right the
47:22
church of light for all of its ill intent uh under anarius was a ball work
47:30
it was not perfect but it tried and again selfish and corruption and
47:38
followed under that heavenly beings but now you have a paladin who comes back in what is again. I'm going to come back to
47:43
it again. What is the one thing that the true Paladin Zacharum faith says? You
47:49
don't follow anybody. Uh because it might be a false light. You follow the
47:55
light inside of yourself and you follow the basic tenants. Yep. And I think that's important. And I think that and why can't I remember her
48:02
name, the the priestess. Oh, I was literally just looking her up, too. Um well, anyway, she she's literally been
48:09
burned twice by the church. once by Anarius and then once again in the
48:15
expansion by somebody who essentially tried to wrestle the faith away from her
48:20
uh and essentially lead people into a you know no kings, no gods, burn
48:26
everything to the ground, fire is the only thing you can believe in. Uh, and let's go murder people and demons
48:31
because why not? To having a paladin show up and remind her and the people
48:38
and those knights that are sitting there listless at this point that your
48:44
devotion to these tenants will help you fight against the hatred, will help you turn the tide against the darkness. Like
48:52
I'm not saying this is what's going to happen, but doesn't that seem like a a readym made group of people to
48:58
essentially become another paladin order under the teachings of an actual paladin that they're they're so desperate for
49:06
purpose that they forgot their way and they just need a light to show them the way. Because again, I go back to that
49:12
scene when Anarius goes into the hells and he's chasing Lilith and that whole
49:18
sequence with all of the the knights and all the holy warriors uh and they're they're charging into hell only to be
49:25
completely eviscerated by the demons because Prava, by the way,
49:30
Prava, thank you. with Prava being one of very few survivors and being scarred
49:36
by it. They they didn't have holy power backing them up and Arya said, "I got
49:42
other stuff to do. Peace." Yeah. They're just literally fighting with
49:47
spears. I mean, they do a lot of damage because for a lot of it, Anarius is just throwing around holy power. But then he
49:53
decides, you know, I got to go chase my ex and just leaves them in the middle of hell without anything
49:59
but their own ju just in a weird sort of way. It's the perfect example of why you
50:04
can't trust the angels in this. Yeah. And and and now you you have somebody who sits there and says, "Dawn
50:10
your blade with your blood. Find the light inside of yourself. You do not need an angel to give you power. You
50:18
have it already. Your faith in the light, your faith in yourself, your faith in humanity will be your ball work
50:24
and your weapon. Follow me. And then all of a sudden, you got a
50:30
bunch of people that are pretty well marshally trained. Uh who could probably
50:35
start throwing around some hammers of light and maybe crashing in superhero style in the middle of Demons and start
50:41
really wrecking up Meista stuff like Yeah. Like I mean think about too the knights penitent from the uh the church
50:46
of light. Um they're very much like the whole deal of blood sacrifice to power
50:52
the artifacts they're using. Like that's kind of that's that's them externalizing
50:58
their power and it's emblematic of what we see with Anarius. Anarius convinces
51:03
them that everything they can do comes from him and they have to make a yeah not themselves from him. And keep in
51:11
mind he is there. He is the father figure for humanity. He is the one from whom the light comes. But the light is
51:18
you've already given it dude. You know it's already out. You you don't you're not actually providing anything anymore.
51:24
In a very weird way he is very much the emblem of an abusive parent. Yeah. I want to go back to I want to go
51:30
back to the old description of uh the paladin from Diablo II because I think it's relevant here. Go for The paladin is a battle ready
51:37
warrior for whom faith is a shield and fights for what he believes to be right. His steadfastness gives him power to
51:43
bestow blessings to his friends and wreak cruel justice on foes. There are
51:49
those who call the paladin an overroought zealot, but other recognize in him strength and goodness of the
51:56
light. And I think that's exactly what Diablo needs at this point. And I think that's why the paladin is back. And
52:03
we'll we'll talk about Amazonians again at some point. Um especially when we
52:08
know more about the expansion of what's coming because they're going to play a part in this as well because if you
52:14
remember correctly, sorceresses, uh your your your assassins, your
52:20
rogues, uh everything essentially stems back from Sco, right?
52:26
Yeah. Provos, the you know the sightless eye and the angel and human that were in
52:31
a love affair that basically contributed to all that. Yeah. Which that's going to play a part
52:36
in this as well. But now you're getting to a point where humanity is going to start fending for itself. And that's
52:42
sort of it's been a theme in Diablo I since we started. And if Liz was here, I
52:47
could hear her saying it's the blood. It's always the blood. Because it kind of is, right? But paladins teach you how
52:55
to essentially unlock some of your Nephilim power. If that makes how to reach into yourself and instead
53:01
of spreading your blood around to power other things, you're now using it inside
53:07
you. You light a fire inside your own flesh. You you are the sac you're
53:12
sacrificing, you know, it's not the sacrifice of your blood in the the real sense of stab me into this torture
53:19
chamber robot so I can punch things with big robot fists. Your sacrifice is that you dedicate your life to this. You
53:26
dedicate yourself to it. You don't it's it's not a it's not like a thing where
53:31
you you just go be a paladin for a couple years and okay, my list my enlistment's done. You you become this
53:38
thing. Yeah. in a very real way. You you are you are kind this eternal v vigilance is
53:43
the cost of of peace and all that. That's definitely what's going on here. So, I'm I'm really interested. I'm I
53:49
know I'm going to be playing a Paladin as soon as I can scrape together the money to uh pre-order this cuz Yeah, I I
53:56
definitely want to play the Paladin. Yeah, and I know how much of it is is changed when I get there.
54:02
So, yeah. And I and I'm definitely looking forward to the expansion itself. Uh mostly because I want to see how the the
54:08
story sort of pieces together at this point because again the low point that we leave the last expansion on dictates
54:15
that we start getting some form of upward momentum. Yeah. There's almost nowhere to go but
54:20
up from there. Yeah. Uh, and so now being able to fight against Methistan, Mephisto, uh, being
54:28
able to, uh, throw through his demonic uh, legions that he is able to summon
54:34
up. Uh, and the interesting bit about that with there's a little piece in there with like Lilith reminding you
54:41
that you need her in order to do this. We'll see how that plays into it. Um, but a paladin is a reminder that you
54:47
don't need to make a devil's bargain to win. And I don't think that is just
54:53
there by coincidence. I think that is integral to the story beat and where the story is going. But either way, it's
55:01
it's very interesting and very cool to see this
55:06
class come back because it is important. It's important to the story of Diablo. It's important specifically to the story
55:12
of Meisto. It's it's important to the survival of humanity. And I think it's
55:20
it's not quite necessarily the Blues Brothers were getting the band back together type thing, but it's not
55:25
exactly not that either. Like you have the the Druids back in the fight where they skipped Diablo III completely, but
55:33
they're back now and they're tied up in this. You have the barbarians who never
55:38
left. They just want a good scrap. Um, you have the sorcerers coming back. You
55:44
have all of these old pieces, these ones that hold the mysteries of the old ways
55:50
before the world was super broken that are coming back. And I don't think that's accidental. I think that is to
55:57
try to lead us out of the darkness, out of the hatred, into the light, and for
56:03
humanity to get back their power. Because there's also a little bit about that with the necromancer story as well
56:10
where it's like there is this sort of balance and preservation that sanctuary has that is fine when the demons and
56:17
angels are just in their own pocket and not dealing and not not bothering any. And getting back to that point I think
56:23
is key. And the last time we even got close to that was Diablo II. So I don't
56:28
think it's it's an accident. I think it's a continuation or a finishing of their story because they didn't really
56:35
finish it in Diablo II and Diablo III threw everything into the blender and and kind of chucked it aside because the
56:41
angels got involved and did essentially the same thing that the Demons did just kind of worse and now we're here. So, I
56:49
don't know, maybe we're going to see this push push back and maybe that'll be the importance of the the story, but I
56:56
don't know. Is there anything that you that you want to call out specifically or that you think might happen?
57:01
I definitely want to see. I don't know if it will happen, but I'd like to see if we get some kind of storyline about
57:08
the various other holy warriors like crusaders and templars where there some
57:14
of their kit shows up game-wise, but story-wise that there's an actual sense
57:19
that these groups are all coming together. Yeah. One thing I will say is that there's a a a recent image that was
57:25
released or a gift that has been uh making the uh rounds in Diablo for the
57:31
Diablo I which is uh the paladin essentially jumps into the air very much like the crusader did in Diablo II uh
57:38
lands in a shock of pure holy energy uh but is wielding angelic wings of light
57:46
behind them those tendrils of pure light of energy. So, I think Matt's right on
57:52
the money of what he's going to get there, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of But I think that's going to do it for us today, friends. Thank you very
57:58
much for listening. Do want to remind you that Blizzard Watch is made possible due to your generous contributions at patreon.com/bizzardwatch.
58:05
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the algorithm show people that they actually do consume our content. So, I'm going to stop beating that horse. Uh
59:51
probably cuz if I don't, it's going to get up and probably turn into a skeletal horse or a meistant horse. And we're
59:56
going to leave it there, friends. But we'll catch you next week.