Up next in 10
This week's Lore Watch Podcast takes us back in the day, with a couple questions that ask about lore from the vanilla days.
We start off talking arcs. The Alliance has a great arc involving the Defias in their initial starting zone, which evolves to involve Lady Prestor in the middle levels, all the way up to Onyxia at cap. The Lore Watch crew discuss the various threads of the Horde narrative that branch in similar ways throughout their leveling experience all the way on up.
Then, we pivot to class quests of that same era, up through the Legion Order Hall quests. Some of them felt like a great, cohesive way to celebrate your class and give you a lot of lore about it, and others... less so. Joe, Matt, and Eric reminisce about their time playing their respective classes, and whether they prefer unique class touches -- even if they might be a little half-baked for certain classes.
If you want even more background story, we also have a guide to every Warcraft book in chronological order (for those of you who prefer reading that way).
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Bluesky: @blizzardwatch.com
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0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:12
table where free form discussion about
0:13
lore and your favorite media. I'm your
0:15
host, Joe Perez, one of several lore
0:17
focused folks from Blizzard Watch, and
0:19
I've got two marvelous co-hosts with me
0:20
today. Uh, first up, Matt Rossy. How you
0:23
doing today, Matt?
0:24
>> I am waiting for Space Godzilla and not
0:26
very patiently.
0:27
>> Fair enough. and uh Eric OD. How you
0:30
doing, Eric?
0:30
>> I'm doing great, Joe. I'm following the
0:32
Aremis mission and we've got astronauts
0:34
out at the moon and I think we should
0:35
take a page out of that. And if we want
0:37
to know what ALON is, I think we should
0:39
just build a goblin ship and get out
0:41
there and check it out. Just go out to
0:43
the moons and see what evidence we have
0:45
there. We haven't done that yet, so I
0:47
think we should do it.
0:48
>> Fair enough. And maybe maybe one day we
0:50
will go back to space for the search. Uh
0:53
it'll be like a Star Trek movie, but not
0:55
quite. Uh but we're not here to talk
0:56
about that today. Instead, we're here to
0:58
talk about, well, questions that you,
0:59
our wonderful listeners, have sent to
1:01
us. Uh, again, if you have questions for
1:04
this or any of our podcasts, we want to
1:05
make sure that you know, you can send
1:06
those in to podcastardwatch.com.
1:10
Uh, specify the show that it is for in
1:12
the subject line as well as any special
1:14
pronunciation of your name. If you want
1:16
to hit us up on Discord, we have two
1:17
channels set aside. We have the Q and
1:18
podcast questions channel, which is open
1:20
for everybody. Same rules apply. If you
1:23
are a Patreon supporter, however, we do
1:25
have the Patreon Q and podcast questions
1:26
channel where we tend to look there
1:28
first as a way of saying thank you for
1:30
helping us keep the lights on. Our first
1:32
one comes from the bank of questions
1:34
that our friend Meron has sent us. Uh,
1:38
and this one is well number four on that
1:40
list. I don't know how else to describe
1:42
it. Uh, in WoW classic or as I like to
1:46
call it vanilla WoW. Uh when it comes to
1:48
the Alliance in the Eastern Kingdoms,
1:50
Owen Forest, Westfall, Red Ridge
1:52
Mountains, Duskwood, the Stockades,
1:55
Stormwind Keep, Lady Katrina Prestor,
1:58
and finally Enixia all form a cohesive
2:00
leveling experience. You start by
2:02
fighting bandits and end by facing a
2:04
dragon in her lair with these stories
2:07
loosely interconnected. Is there a
2:09
comparable overarching narrative uh in
2:12
Kalumor for the Horde? Cataclysm era
2:15
versions of these zones are also welcome
2:17
as examples. Um I don't know who wants
2:19
to go first.
2:20
>> I think that there's like a little bit
2:22
but not as much. Like the closest I I
2:24
think it comes is you get like you're in
2:26
the oases and the barrens and you have
2:28
all this exploration and it kind of
2:30
leads into some stuff but it's more like
2:32
a single zone and it feels pretty big
2:36
but there's not not too much that picks
2:38
up the thread to go from place to place
2:41
across the whole continent as cohesive.
2:43
Uh, nothing else that I can remember
2:44
anyway. Did you guys think of anything?
2:46
>> Uh, basically for me the thing that
2:48
sticks out remembering my time leveling
2:51
is that unlike the Alliance, the Horde
2:56
story tends to kind of bounce back and
2:59
forth between Kalumor and the parts of
3:02
the Eastern Kingdom that are either held
3:04
by trolls and orcs in the south or held
3:08
by the Forsaken in the north. um the
3:11
forsaken that like their their whole
3:13
there's a whole big amount of stuff
3:15
there not just in uh their their own
3:18
terful glades but also as you go over
3:20
into the plague lands and then even
3:22
south like the Taran Mill and so forth
3:25
there's a you know a lot of people used
3:27
to think that there were torren in Taran
3:29
Mill but no it's it's actual it's just
3:31
Taran and it's a it's an undead area on
3:34
the boundary of Southshore so what you
3:37
end up with is at least the way I
3:39
remember
3:40
uh playing as on a Torren, I went from
3:43
the Torren starting zone in Mulore. Uh
3:46
you'd go into the Baronss and uh I I
3:51
didn't I don't think they had the
3:52
Southern and Northern Baronss back then.
3:53
I think it was just the Baronss and it
3:55
was enormous.
3:57
>> Yeah. uh as you pointed out, but at
4:00
certain points as you got to a certain
4:01
level, quests would lead you to
4:03
Silverpine or up to um uh I can't
4:08
remember the name of it because there's
4:09
that dungeon up there and there's lots
4:12
of horde bases, but it's it's a night
4:14
elf zone,
4:15
>> the Ashenville.
4:16
>> Ashenville. Yeah. Yeah. You you'd either
4:18
go up to Ashenvil or you'd go over to
4:20
Silverpine because both of those
4:21
dungeons were like mid20s. Uh, so you
4:24
you they both kind of at the same time,
4:25
maybe like a little spaced out, but not
4:27
not a lot. So you'd go do those. Uh, if
4:30
you did both of them, that would usually
4:32
take you up into mid30s, and that would
4:34
take you hordewise, that would take you
4:37
actually back to to uh, Tearsville
4:39
Glades because that's when you'd start
4:40
directly attacking the Scarlet Crusade.
4:44
The Alliance had like one quest down in
4:47
Desilos that said, you know, hey, these
4:49
guys are bad. But you as a Horde guy,
4:51
you'd actually have multiple quests
4:54
getting up in their grill because they
4:55
were killing the the uh Forsaken and the
4:58
Forsaken were now in the Horde, so you
5:00
guys defended them.
5:02
Um and and if you were playing a
5:04
Forsaken, then obviously you'd
5:05
personally be upset by it as well. Uh,
5:08
but from there there's the the the going
5:11
to back to Desalus to find um Rexxar
5:15
deal where he'd be wandering around that
5:17
that took you like 40s and 50s and you
5:20
ended up going to Maridon and you ended
5:22
up going to like I want to say Dire Mall
5:26
as part of that. I mean, not that the
5:27
Alliance didn't go to those places, but
5:29
there were specific quests that led you
5:31
to them as a member of the Horde. That
5:33
all ended up in the big, you know,
5:36
getting the disguise to go after Anixia,
5:39
getting the key to Blackwing Lair. Um,
5:42
which again, Alliance could do those
5:44
things, too, but they were they were not
5:45
part of that big quest you were just
5:47
talking about. Uh, whereas for the
5:50
Horde, they were just it it felt less
5:52
like a big cohesive quest and a bunch of
5:55
parallel quests. You know what I mean?
5:56
Like it it didn't it didn't go fluidly
5:59
one into the other. They just existed
6:02
and you could jump between them. And I
6:04
did a lot of jumping around, but I don't
6:06
know how much how common that was for
6:09
most Horde players. Uh but I remember
6:10
like going to Hammersfall in uh Arai,
6:14
not because I had any quest to go there,
6:16
but because I knew there were quests
6:18
there. Like you'd go there and you'd
6:20
head up to what used to be um Oh, what
6:24
the heck? What was the name of that
6:25
stupid town in Ara in the Arthia
6:27
Highlands? Not Hammersfall. The
6:29
alliance, the ex alliance one that was
6:31
now this this syndicate was all over it.
6:33
Stum something. I think it was Strumm
6:35
Guard. Yes, Strong Guard. So, like the
6:37
Horde stuff wasn't cohesive. I feel like
6:40
that really needs to be said. As far as
6:42
I can recall, it wasn't cohesive, but
6:44
there was stuff at pretty much every 10
6:47
levels there'd be another place to go.
6:49
like you'd go to Tanerys and the Zularak
6:53
stuff would be waiting and there was
6:54
plenty of there was a lot of horde
6:55
breadcrumbs but they weren't the the
6:58
whole the fate of the kingdom is at
7:00
stake story that you got for with the
7:02
ones you mentioned in the alliance which
7:04
is because the orcs didn't really
7:06
dominate the horde quite like the humans
7:08
dominated the alliance because all that
7:10
stuff you talked about is human. Mhm.
7:12
>> If you were playing a night elf, you
7:14
didn't, you know, you you ended up going
7:16
to those places, but it didn't feel
7:17
important and your story stopped around
7:20
the time Ashen Veil got leveled out.
7:23
There wasn't anything to you guys till
7:24
you went to Feather Moon. So yeah, I I
7:26
feel like to a degree I feel like that's
7:29
what what what you just described in the
7:31
question and what Eric was talking about
7:33
is very much a consequence of the
7:35
Alliance being humans and their amazing
7:37
friends, whereas the Horde was much more
7:40
uh everybody who who got, you know,
7:44
treated like monsters coming together
7:45
and saying, "We'll find that." Uh so
7:48
there
7:48
>> I think that might be why the horde is
7:50
more of a series of channels and not so
7:53
much one one thing going down to the sea
7:55
sort of thing.
7:55
>> Yeah. And I think the the the
7:57
misconception is that the and not to be
8:02
contradictory to what you said, Marin,
8:04
the Alliance and the Horde questing was
8:06
very was much more similar than I think
8:09
people really would like to admit
8:11
because again like you pointed out there
8:14
were these loose connections between
8:16
them. The Horde had that too uh just in
8:20
different aspects. So, the two factions
8:22
were coming at the start of World of
8:25
Warcraft from two very completely
8:27
different story angles. The Horde was a
8:30
loose group of essentially castaways,
8:34
right? They were people that, you know,
8:37
settling from the Horde, uh, settling
8:40
from the Torren instead of being a
8:42
nomadic race, actually setting down
8:44
roots. um the Forsaken uh being this
8:48
isolated island uh in the middle of the
8:51
Eastern Kingdoms. Uh the Torin
8:55
uh essentially coming into contact with
8:57
the the remnants of the Alliance near
8:58
them. The trolls betrayal uh basically
9:02
what happened with uh Zazane uh and Vulg
9:06
struggle to reclaim the Echo Isles and
9:07
all that stuff. all of the and then this
9:10
all culminates in the dark horde and
9:14
them sort of the the issues with them in
9:16
the dragon flight. Um so to kind of go
9:19
all the way back to the orc side of
9:20
things, Thr at the beginning of World of
9:24
Warcraft, Ormar is a new place. Orgammar
9:28
has not been established like Stormwind
9:30
was. It wasn't a city being rebuilt. It
9:32
was a city being built in a land that
9:35
was host
9:36
>> in War Yeah. Warcraft 3 when you do um
9:39
this the stuff with Rexxar and you know
9:42
his his amazing friends that Oramar is
9:45
not even done yet.
9:46
>> Yeah.
9:46
>> It's like they're just laying it down.
9:48
They're they have to drive away like big
9:50
thunder lizards just to be able to lay
9:52
down some foundations.
9:54
>> Yeah. And and so this is sort of Ogamar
9:57
is air quote built. It's inhabitable,
10:02
but really it's a a loose form of
10:05
buildings and settlements inside of this
10:07
ravine and a hostile land. And a lot of
10:10
the quests are they revolve around that.
10:13
Uh it's, you know, help cultivate the
10:15
land, help cultivate livestock. Um and
10:19
then there's also the undercurrent of
10:21
the Burning Blade cult. Uh the Burning
10:23
Blade cult was a remnant of the Dark
10:26
Horde and the Shadow Council. uh that
10:28
main goal was to well be the shadow
10:31
council and be the dark horde again. Um
10:34
and there were elements of them
10:36
corrupting orcs and other members of the
10:39
horde and infiltrating
10:42
because not everybody could be vetted.
10:44
Uh going down into the deep caverns and
10:47
uh and all sorts of stuff like that.
10:49
having contact with some of the more and
10:52
we've talked about this before uh the
10:54
more um Quillbore adjacent races uh and
10:59
you know sort of egging them on in their
11:01
sort of uh it adoption of necroantic
11:05
power. Um, which is why you see the the
11:09
orc story kind of go through all of the
11:12
orgamar going through all the caverns,
11:14
the ragefire caverns, and then
11:16
essentially razor friend crawl and razor
11:19
friend downs um plays into that as well.
11:23
And that that sort of like is all about
11:26
securing the exact area around Ogamar so
11:30
that Orgamar has a chance. Um, but then
11:33
that ties in with giving support to the
11:36
Forsaken when they can because again the
11:38
Forsaken are isolated by themselves over
11:40
in Trrisf Falls Silverpine. Les Met
11:43
pointed out, they're dealing with uh not
11:45
just the Alliance at their doorstep, but
11:48
actively being hunted by Scarlet
11:50
Crusade. Um, and then them trying to
11:54
find their place in the Horde cuz again
11:57
after the events of Warcraft 3, they're
12:01
new, right? like their their whole like
12:04
every member of the Forsaken
12:06
is an abandoned risen person or somebody
12:09
that broke away from the Lich King's
12:10
control in order to you know again
12:15
found this fledgling nation. Uh the
12:18
Torin their story about settling and
12:20
also trying to find being part of this
12:22
horde offering the wisdom from being
12:23
blood hoof uh to Thrall and others but
12:27
then also dealing with the alliance that
12:29
haven't let the war go yet. Um because
12:32
again, Warcraft 1 or Warcraft 2,
12:35
Warcraft 3, they're all still relatively
12:37
fresh all things considered. And when
12:40
World of Warcraft starts, I think it's
12:41
only like what, 5 years after the events
12:43
of the Warcraft 3, something like that.
12:45
Like it's
12:45
>> four
12:46
>> four years.
12:47
>> Yeah. I mean, right now I'm hearing the
12:49
uh Maya voice over. Four years have
12:52
passed. Yeah. So, yeah, it's four. Uh
12:55
but then you have all these disparate
12:56
groups of of alliance in uh I believe it
13:00
was the Baronss who are still trying to
13:04
kill the Horde. They're still trying to
13:05
go to war. Uh do the quest chain. I
13:08
think it's called Oasis uh as Horde and
13:11
you're trying to run off and destroy the
13:13
splintered alliance forces that are
13:16
trying to make bases in the barrens that
13:18
are trying to get military strongholds.
13:21
Um and
13:22
>> I mean they straight up have them like
13:24
several that are formed like they're
13:25
obviously military structures that are
13:28
not horde made. Uh, and that's not even
13:31
counting like the the ones on the border
13:33
with where Theramore is, Dusall Marsh
13:36
where you've got that keep, uh, like
13:39
Edgewatch keep, Nightw Watch keep, I
13:40
don't remember which keep it is,
13:42
>> but there's two keeps. There's one
13:44
that's right next to like it's within
13:47
walking distance of the orc starting
13:48
zone,
13:49
>> and then there's one further down that's
13:52
that's kind of on the edge of the fence.
13:54
And yeah, they're they're straight up
13:56
heaps. And then there's those big kind
13:58
of dwarf constructed buildings that you
14:01
have to go into. Uh I know that you get
14:04
this quest when you're down at the
14:06
southern part of the baron.
14:07
>> Oh, and that dig site. I hated that dig
14:09
site. I died so many times in that dig
14:11
site.
14:12
>> Yeah. Bail gun, right?
14:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. It it's really weird to
14:16
think about like the the alliance is all
14:19
fragmented up and down Calumdor because
14:22
they've got the north with the the night
14:25
elves then they've got fererals. They
14:27
got a big chunk of Fereralas because
14:28
again the night elves and then they've
14:30
got theore. And when you look at that in
14:33
comparison to the way that the horde is
14:35
uh in the Eastern Kingdoms, you can tell
14:37
they are trying for parody because
14:39
there's all those horde bases in
14:42
Stranglethorn and there's obviously the
14:45
hordes got everywhere the undead are.
14:47
And then there's also Hammerfall over in
14:49
Arathy and a couple of dwarf towns uh
14:53
going all the way over on on the coast.
14:56
And yeah, it it doesn't it's it's hard
14:59
to realize. People often look back at it
15:01
as being a lot more different, but I
15:02
think Joe's got a point about how it's
15:05
>> it's like a mirror match, right? It's
15:07
almost like, you know,
15:09
>> and and I want to I want to like just
15:11
bring it home real quick with the last
15:12
part of it that really I think drives
15:13
drives this to the end. While you're
15:17
dealing on the lion side with Anixia and
15:20
her minations,
15:22
the Horde's dealing with the fallout
15:23
from Nefarian and all of his minations
15:27
and you know Nefarian who happens to be
15:30
the eldest son of uh Deathwing, leader
15:33
of the Black Dragon Flight because
15:35
>> yeah Ren Blackhand's thing is all tied
15:38
up in that and you can go there as
15:40
alliance upper and lower black rock
15:42
sitter are clearly horde oriented
15:44
>> can I mean Canonically in the story uh
15:47
the the that story is being dealt with
15:50
by the Horde, not the Alliance. Um the
15:54
Dark Horde and the Black Dragon Flight
15:56
are in Blackwing layer, upper Black Rock
15:58
Spire. Um they're doing their thing
16:01
under uh Nefarian's guidance, right? Um
16:05
and so like canonically, the Horde is
16:08
the one that deals with Nefarian and the
16:10
Alliance are the ones that deal with
16:11
Enixia. But again, they're mirrored.
16:15
They're I wouldn't even say they're
16:16
mirrored stories. They're twin stories.
16:18
And they the way they get there is very
16:22
similar. Um it it just I think because
16:26
of the horde sections were so spread
16:29
out. like the major Horde settlements
16:32
were always so spread out that for Horde
16:35
players, you didn't necessarily,
16:38
you know, you didn't start in
16:41
uh the the Lord. You didn't start with
16:45
the the Forsaken and then immediately go
16:47
to Ormar. That didn't happen till later.
16:49
Um there wasn't this like this dedicated
16:52
flow, whereas the human questing did.
16:57
>> The human questing span multiple zones.
16:59
the orc one kind of did.
17:00
>> You just made me think of something. I
17:03
think to a certain degree some of the
17:04
consequence of this is it's it's rooted
17:07
in the fact that the baronss is like
17:09
four zones in a trench coat. Original
17:11
classic Arab the Baronss is enormous.
17:14
Oh, yeah.
17:16
>> Goes all the way um up to the border
17:19
with Ashenville, all the way down to
17:22
Thousand Needles and takes up most of
17:25
Kalindor going uh west to east uh I mean
17:29
east to west and the parts that aren't
17:32
technically the Barrens, there's still
17:34
like oh uh Stone the Stone Talon
17:37
Mountain area which is essentially just
17:40
an extension of the Baronss and is again
17:42
it's a Horde zone. it it just feels like
17:45
it's tacked on. In a way, the the Horde
17:48
have this one gigantic leveling zone,
17:52
whereas the Alliance has a lot of
17:54
smaller ones. Like you can go up and do
17:56
dwarfy stuff for a while. You can go
17:58
down and do human stuff. You can go off
18:00
to the desert and do, you know,
18:02
interconnected. There's a there's hoorde
18:03
here too stuff. You can go up to the
18:06
wetlands. In in the time that Alliance
18:08
are doing all that stuff, the horde are
18:10
still in the barrens. They're in the
18:12
Baronss like to mid30s. You can still be
18:14
doing rage fire on you know not rage
18:18
it's razor fan. You can go down and do
18:19
razor finan downs and razor finan crawl.
18:21
You're you know you could be level 40
18:23
something before you leave the barren.
18:25
>> Yeah. And think
18:28
>> and and think about that because like at
18:29
the very north near Ormar you're going
18:31
further like what is it? I think it's
18:33
Boulder Load Mine or something like that
18:34
that is like really close to Orgamar as
18:36
soon as you get into the barrens or if
18:39
you're coming out of Duratar, you're
18:41
probably coming across the South Furia
18:42
River into Farw Watch Post and that's at
18:46
the northeastern end of it. Uh to the
18:50
north is the Ashen Veil Forest with you
18:52
know Fallen Lake Sky, Demonfall Canyon
18:55
and all those Fellfire Hill uh all the
18:58
way up at the top there. And then you
19:00
come down and you have the forgotten
19:02
pools. Uh the crossroads in the smack
19:04
dab center of the barrens, Whailing
19:06
Caverns off to the side. Um you go a
19:09
little bit east, you get uh Stone Talon
19:12
Mountains and Thunderbluff is there
19:14
again. Durar and Thunderbluff is
19:16
separated by the Barrens, a vast desert
19:20
um separating those two. Then it goes
19:23
all the way down through uh Camp Darajio
19:26
to the field of giants uh all the way
19:30
down uh parallel to Dusqualo Marsh uh
19:33
until you finally get to Razer Fran
19:35
Crawl which is right against Thousand
19:37
Needles and uh also butts up against
19:40
Feralis. So like it's it's a huge huge
19:45
zone. And if you look at the alliance
19:48
side, or at least the Eastern Kingdoms,
19:50
nothing's that large. Dun Mororrow is
19:53
probably the the closest thing to being
19:56
that large. Um, and it really only
19:59
borders Stormwind, Seiring Gorge, and
20:02
Loch Madan. So, like it's
20:05
>> it's kind of sandwiched in there. Like a
20:07
lot of those zones, like you just
20:09
mentioned, uh, Sirin Gorge, Sirin Gorge,
20:11
the blasted lands, the burning steps are
20:14
all like fragments of of a mountain
20:17
chain that would have been about that
20:19
big.
20:20
>> Mhm.
20:21
>> If it didn't get blown up by the Dark
20:24
Irons playing around in summoning
20:26
Ragnaros. So, if you look at the two
20:28
continents, one of them has this
20:30
enormous zone in the middle that's full
20:32
of like three or four different biomes.
20:34
The other one has a bunch of different
20:36
zones for it, like the uh Swamp of
20:39
Sorrowos, which used to be the Black
20:40
Morass. Um then you go up and you hit
20:44
that that weird that weird place where
20:47
uh pretty much the only thing there is
20:50
uh Tarzan
20:52
>> and I always forget what it's called.
20:54
>> Uh the Deadwind Pass.
20:56
>> Deadwind Pass. which then, you know,
20:58
goes up into, you know, all of these
21:00
different zones are like fragmented
21:01
pieces of something that might have been
21:04
one contiguous, you know, area, but
21:08
isn't where. So, if you're alliance
21:11
doing those quests, you get you move
21:12
from place to place a lot. You go to a
21:15
new zone with a completely different
21:16
feel. If you're horde, you could
21:18
literally just be in the barrens for 30
21:20
levels.
21:22
>> And a lot of people did.
21:23
>> Yeah. Why wouldn't you? I mean, if if
21:26
you And in parallel to that, even even
21:28
the the night elf experience, like if
21:31
you just do Teldrasil and then do the
21:35
Kalindor leveling experience, like
21:37
you're going to Dark Shore and Felwood
21:41
uh in winter spring uh in that area in
21:44
Ashenville cuz like you have Teldrasil
21:47
which was made for levels 1 to 10 and
21:50
then from there you go to Dark Shore
21:51
which is from 10 to 20. Then you go down
21:54
to Ashenvil, which was 18 to 30. Um,
21:57
>> you can hit the the dungeon on the way,
21:59
Black Fathom Deeps.
22:00
>> Yep. And then you go back up towards uh
22:03
you could go into like the Baronss if
22:05
you really wanted to, but everything
22:07
there generally leads you to go back up
22:09
into Felwood uh and then from Felwood
22:11
into Winter Spring. And that was the
22:14
intended at the time. like every
22:19
leveling path. Like back in the day
22:21
before the internet was the way that it
22:23
was, you used to get strategy guides and
22:26
you used to get many different versions
22:28
of them, whether it was Primo or Brady
22:30
or whatever. And everybody had the their
22:32
own sort of like take on how to level,
22:36
but the night elf suggested leveling
22:38
experience was the same across all of
22:40
them. And it was sort of the way that it
22:42
was intended. And I'm air quoting that
22:44
really hard right now. Um,
22:45
>> the only reason to go south there was
22:47
there was once there was one southern
22:49
patch that went into the barrens. There
22:51
was another one that went through Stone
22:52
Talon into Desalus and that was purely
22:55
to get to Fereralas so you could run
22:58
Dire Mall.
22:59
>> Mhm.
23:00
>> It was to run Maadon and then to run
23:02
Dire Mall. You weren't intended to do a
23:04
lot of quests because there were no
23:07
getting to Desolus. There were like what
23:08
10 quests?
23:10
>> Yeah, if that. Like if you were
23:12
alliance, I think there were a few
23:13
Morris horde, but mostly they were go
23:16
mess around with the centaurs and we're
23:18
going to give you five quests per per,
23:19
you know, per arm of this because we
23:21
really want you to do that. But
23:23
eventually you'd just be done. Desolus
23:25
just didn't have anything
23:28
>> and she kept up.
23:30
>> Well, I was going to say WoW had this
23:31
weird problem when it was originally
23:33
conceived in the the uh vanilla days
23:36
where and maybe this is a more of a main
23:38
topic uh main show topic than it is a a
23:41
lore watch thing, but there's a gap
23:44
everywhere you go. There's a level gap.
23:47
And that gap is usually
23:50
between 30 and 40 where there's a couple
23:53
different areas you might be able to go,
23:56
but generally speaking, you're going to
23:59
be hardressed to find uh stuff in
24:01
between
24:03
um because your XP and questing is going
24:05
to start to to tail off at that point
24:08
because zones weren't dynamic at the So
24:10
like
24:10
>> I think that's actually though it does
24:11
control a lot of the lore because it
24:13
controls exactly what we're talking
24:15
about. Yeah,
24:16
>> that there's this story that kind of
24:18
it's cohesive across a b a bunch of
24:21
areas, but it's only loosely cohesive
24:23
because it can't be more cohesive.
24:26
>> Yeah, cuz like the the the Eastern
24:27
Kingdom is a really good example. Like
24:29
if you like going to Duskwood, um and
24:32
then you usually cap out around high
24:35
20s, maybe 30. Um and that's all the
24:38
zone was designed for. And then from
24:39
there, your options are dip into
24:42
strangle thorn veil, which is supposed
24:44
to be 30 to 45, but as soon as you
24:47
>> you're not getting to 45 there.
24:48
>> You're not getting the 45 there, but
24:50
also you're probably a couple levels
24:52
behind where you need to be if you're
24:53
starting there at level 30 at the time.
24:55
And then swamps, everything is 35 plus.
24:58
So, like you really don't have a choice
25:01
aside from, you know, maybe do some PvP,
25:05
maybe uh, you know, go somewhere else,
25:08
maybe take the boat from the Eastern
25:10
Kingdoms to Calumor and pop your way
25:12
into, uh, you know, around Ashenvail or
25:17
uh, Felwood and start to try to do some
25:19
of the stuff over there. Really? Or you
25:21
could like Yeah, you could hit the gray.
25:22
You could do a bunch of gray stuff at
25:24
the high end of like say Ashenvil to get
25:27
the Stone Talon and then you would kind
25:29
of like run your way down to to uh Steam
25:33
Weedle.
25:33
>> Yep.
25:34
>> And Gadget Xan and then you you'd be
25:37
parked there until you got to Zularok
25:39
and you'd be parked there cuz Zulrock
25:41
was like what 47 48
25:44
>> something like that.
25:45
>> Yeah. And you'd be level 40 if you were
25:47
lucky. I think I hunted those stupid
25:49
scorpids for that leather set for like
25:52
three levels. And because the story in
25:55
the area was the way it was, the story
25:58
kind of forced you to try and find like
26:02
you need to find that quest that takes
26:03
you to that dungeon that you you don't
26:05
even know exists because this was a lot
26:07
of people didn't know sunken temple was
26:09
a thing.
26:09
>> Yeah. You'd miss so much because you
26:11
just didn't know it was there and there
26:12
wasn't much pointing you to it and you'd
26:14
kind of just be like, "Okay." like you'd
26:16
join a dungeon and be like I don't know
26:17
why I'm here or where the story is
26:20
coming from because you know I I took my
26:24
torin and I just ran to Orammar and then
26:27
I took a blimp to the Eastern Kingdoms
26:30
and I'd leveled there for a while and I
26:32
ended up in the you know um doing
26:35
something weird in the Arai Highlands
26:37
and then I came when I came back they
26:39
had all this other information I I
26:41
missed the Torren Lovering zones I just
26:42
don't there was no like incentive to go
26:44
hack and do it for the story. So, you'd
26:47
get lost. I spent so long in
26:49
Stranglethorn Veil. I think I was just I
26:52
didn't know where to go next. So, I
26:53
think I just ended up killing gorillas
26:54
for like three levels and then just
26:56
wandered around until I found uh Taurus.
27:00
>> Yeah. Yeah, I can see that happening. I
27:02
I really feel like you mentioned, you
27:04
know, getting on the blimps. That's
27:05
another reason the Horde didn't have as
27:08
cohesive an thing. The Alliance had
27:10
boats. So if you wanted to go to another
27:13
place, you got on a boat, which meant
27:14
you had to travel to the place with the
27:16
boat. The blimps just dropped your butt
27:18
off. Like it would drop you off in
27:21
Lorderon City, Under City, or it would
27:23
drop you off in Stranglethorn. And you I
27:27
got on a blimp thinking I was going to
27:29
Lordon, ended up in Stranglethorn, and
27:31
found myself discovering the secret
27:34
origins of the troll people because I
27:36
didn't know what I was doing. Like I
27:39
think Joe and I have talked about this
27:40
quest, the uh the one that tells you
27:42
that the Titan showed up and the trolls
27:44
were like, "What are those?" Mhm.
27:47
>> And I I have no idea like how that fits
27:49
into anything at this point, but I
27:51
remember finding it and being like like
27:53
there was something about the discovery
27:55
aspect of it could be really cool and
27:58
fun, but at the same time there were
28:00
times you found something and thought
28:02
this is going to be so important and it
28:04
it turned out not to be like it's this
28:06
this this plays out in the dun out in
28:08
the badlands I think and it's it's a
28:11
tomb and it's just the tribute to like a
28:14
Conan movie. It's just Conan's, you
28:16
know, the skeleton that Conan found and
28:18
got his sword from in the first Conan
28:20
movie. It's just a a recreation of that.
28:24
>> And then 18 years later, the writers
28:25
have to figure out how that fits into
28:27
the story of the whole world.
28:29
>> Yeah, cuz then they did they actually
28:31
did with Cataclysm because that that was
28:33
involved in um oh bloody heck uh Rathon
28:36
that Rathon's whole I'm an egg. They
28:39
curified an egg story comes from this.
28:42
Uh, so yeah, the Rathon story is
28:44
something we need to talk about some.
28:45
>> Yeah, I mean, and we'll get into that, I
28:47
think, at a later a later discourse. But
28:51
yeah, it's it's interesting to just
28:53
think about how far questing has come
28:55
from the original days to now. I mean,
28:59
comparing vanilla WoW when it first
29:02
released before any of the quality of
29:04
life updates, before any of the patches,
29:06
and comparing it to, you know, The War
29:08
Within Midnight, Battle for Azeroth, um,
29:12
even Legion really, um, where everything
29:17
is way more interconnected. The story
29:19
tends to flow
29:22
between the zones and lead you to
29:24
different areas specifically. I mean,
29:27
and it's ar I've heard people argue that
29:29
the story doesn't flow as well because
29:30
you get to pick your own adventure, but
29:33
you get to pick your own adventure from
29:35
a central point and all the stories are
29:36
tied back to that central point as case
29:39
of the point with the current expansion
29:40
and you're in Silver Moon City and every
29:43
quest jump off point starts in Silver
29:45
Moon City and it's all about what's
29:48
going on in Silver Moon City and what's
29:51
happening around it
29:52
>> and every story is interconnected,
29:54
right? like it didn't used to be like
29:56
that. Go ahead.
29:57
>> Yeah. I just I think there is I
29:59
understand why some people think that it
30:01
has lost something because it has. It's
30:04
lost a bit of that anarchctic you just
30:06
go someplace and find out what's going
30:07
on.
30:08
>> It's also lost a bit of the players have
30:09
to fill in the gaps.
30:11
>> Yeah. It it and you've gained players
30:14
can actually find things now, not oh
30:18
hey, there's a dungeon there I never
30:19
did. Now I'm level I'm almost level 60
30:22
and all the quests are gray, but I I've
30:24
never been, so I want to go. That that
30:27
there's a little bit of that sacrifice
30:30
of that kind of wild west era of just go
30:34
and discover everything, but in return,
30:38
you get to actually do it. And so
30:41
there's there is something to the the
30:43
idea of, you know, design getting a
30:46
little too choose your own adventury,
30:48
but I think to a certain degree it you
30:51
can't really complain about that and
30:53
then support the way classic did it cuz
30:56
classic did it like not only you
30:57
choosing your own adventure, we're not
30:59
even telling you what page to go to, you
31:01
know, just just figure it out. Go, you
31:03
know, just go places, see what happens.
31:06
Uh maybe you'll discover a lot of cool
31:08
stuff or maybe you'll end up in Zularak
31:10
at level 30 because you're a precocious
31:11
little scamp and you end up dead because
31:14
you know you didn't know what a dungeon
31:16
was at this point in time. So yeah,
31:18
there's there is something to be said
31:20
for the way it's it's presented now that
31:22
I think people kind of that it it is
31:25
trying to make it the the most
31:27
accessible for the most players. And
31:30
honestly, I think like War Within at
31:32
least and and before that, Dragonflight
31:35
had it pretty good a pretty good
31:37
tradeoff between getting to do what you
31:39
wanted to do and getting shown where to
31:42
go next and what to do next. I'm I don't
31:44
know about Midnight yet because quite
31:46
frankly, I'm still I've I've like
31:49
leveled several characters up to the
31:50
point of Midnight that I hadn't leveled
31:52
already and then I stop because I get
31:54
scared. Like I I've actually gotten one
31:57
character through some of it and the
31:59
rest of them are all like which one is
32:00
that not which one? I don't know. I
32:01
don't know what to do. So yeah, but I
32:04
think it if Midnight keeps what it's its
32:06
current predecessors have done, I don't
32:08
see a problem. Honestly, I think in
32:10
terms of how that's that works for
32:12
getting to go see the next quest. Well,
32:14
hopefully that answers your question.
32:15
I'm sure we will probably be revisiting
32:18
this at some point in the near future.
32:20
And again, friends at home, if you have
32:21
questions about any specific quest lines
32:23
or uh anything you want to get a little
32:25
more details on, let us know. Uh our
32:28
next question comes from Moon Fray, uh
32:31
one of our Patreon subscribers. Thank
32:33
you very much. Uh expanding Evergreen
32:35
Systems in WoW, one of my favorite game
32:37
experiences for vanilla were class-based
32:39
quests. There was an epic paladin mount
32:42
quest and an epic warlock mount quest
32:44
that followed a quest chain that
32:45
involved even needing a group to
32:47
complete some steps. It was a great way
32:49
to feel more immersed in one's class and
32:51
enjoy storytelling in its purest form.
32:53
The quest journey, the fellowship of
32:55
seeking something as magnificent as a
32:57
special mount, and the celebration of
32:59
achieving such a feat. This was
33:01
beautifully done in the Legion
33:02
expansion, and it feels like the
33:05
abandonment of class order halls was a
33:07
missed opportunity. Not only did it give
33:10
reason to try other classes and
33:12
experience those storylines, it also
33:14
provided cross- faction homes that was
33:17
just a great way to feel totally
33:18
invested in the class itself. We
33:20
recently got to all visit the Paladin
33:22
class order through Journey in the
33:25
Midnight expansion. Wouldn't you like to
33:27
see the return of class orders for every
33:29
expansion moving forward? How cool would
33:32
it be to get more of a true backstory on
33:35
Joe's favorite undead paladin who wields
33:37
the light? Uh, love your podcast. Thank
33:40
you for the great discussions. You're
33:41
very welcome and thank you for the
33:42
question. Um, so class order halls were
33:47
really cool. They were really neat and
33:50
concept. The problem is some class order
33:53
halls were more memorable than others
33:56
and some definitely lacked a cohesive
34:00
vision. And I'm not saying that they
34:01
were good or bad. If you enjoyed what
34:03
you had for your class order, that's
34:04
great. But you some of them definitely
34:07
seem to get a little more attention and
34:10
a little more direct connection to the
34:11
story.
34:12
>> I don't even like I don't even know if I
34:15
would say that the ones I didn't like
34:18
didn't get attention so much as they
34:20
specifically didn't feel like they they
34:23
had something to tell you about your
34:25
class. Like some class like the hunter
34:27
one was kind of halfway. It didn't like
34:31
I I've played like most of them. I
34:32
didn't do the the the mage one, but
34:35
warlock one I've done. Yes, that's
34:37
right. I had a warlock at that level. I
34:40
still have it somewhere
34:42
there. I've done the death knight one,
34:44
the paladin one. I I did the warrior
34:47
one. I did the shaman one. Um I would
34:52
say like the hunter one I did. Uh the I
34:55
would say like even the demon hunter one
34:57
I did actually now that I think about
34:58
it. And the ones that I I remember the
35:00
most fondly, like the the Paladin one,
35:03
the shaman one, and the death knight
35:05
one, felt like they they had a they had
35:07
something to tell you about your
35:09
character's class and the role that they
35:12
played in the game world. Whereas the
35:14
hunter one felt like it was trying. Uh
35:16
the warlock one, I didn't feel like it
35:18
was getting there. The demon hunter one
35:21
had a lot of cool stuff, but it didn't
35:23
actually feel cohesive.
35:24
>> And the warrior one was gorgeous. It was
35:28
easily the best lookingass hall. It It
35:30
just had this monumental scale and scope
35:32
and it was just me. There was no other
35:35
warriors to hang out with. I mean, they
35:36
were there. There were players there.
35:38
But, you know, you go to the Palent
35:40
Order Hall and it's chaka block with big
35:42
names. Famous Palin NPCs, statues of
35:46
ones that are dead. You go to the Death
35:49
Knight one and and all those guys from
35:51
the Death Knight starting zone and all
35:52
the ones that have come up since.
35:54
They're all over the place. Yeah, even
35:55
the hunter one has a whole bunch of like
35:57
hunters you've heard of. You go to the
35:59
warrior one and occasionally somebody
36:01
drops by
36:03
>> like uh Dan A shows up occasionally.
36:06
>> Yeah. But I I think part of the the
36:07
other issue with it too is that the
36:10
scope of effort required for the class
36:12
order halls was massive.
36:15
>> Oh yeah.
36:15
>> Oh yeah.
36:16
>> Mhm. Like I want you to really think
36:18
about that too cuz there are how many
36:20
classes in the game right now or at the
36:22
time of of le
36:23
>> Oh jeez. I think there was
36:24
>> uh Monk made 11. So
36:28
>> Demon Hunter made 12 now.
36:29
>> Yeah.
36:30
>> 13 now.
36:31
>> 13. 13 now with evoker. Um but like at
36:35
the time when Legion we get Demon
36:37
Hunters, that's 12 classes. Uh a ton of
36:42
specs, a ton of history, and all of that
36:45
requires effort. I firmly believe that
36:48
this was one of the reasons that uh they
36:51
originally hired uh historians to work
36:55
at specifically at Blizzard for these
36:59
games because when assembling
37:02
uh the items, you know, for like the
37:05
order halls, assembling the NPCs,
37:08
um assembling the artifact weapons that
37:10
you went and chased down, like some of
37:14
the stuff got lost in translation. As a
37:16
matter of fact, you can go back and
37:17
listen to some very early lore watches
37:20
uh revolving around that release of that
37:22
and and you know talks with us and an
37:25
and how many things we pointed out that
37:28
you know and other lore folks pointed
37:30
out that you know we were surprised
37:32
didn't get included or we didn't see or
37:34
that you know some of the story lines
37:36
kind of dried up or why didn't they do
37:38
XYZ and then Anne left us to go be a
37:40
historian, right? Because they needed
37:43
people to keep that stuff straight. Um,
37:46
it's a monumental undertaking. And like
37:51
I will say this, I loved the shaman
37:54
order hall 90%. There was some things
37:57
that didn't make sense to me. Like being
38:00
where it was didn't make sense to me.
38:03
Why wasn't it in like deep home or
38:06
something like that? Something that made
38:08
a little more sense than I have a really
38:09
good view of the maelstrom. This is
38:11
fantastic. Um, some of the story lines
38:15
were interesting, like we got to to
38:17
Maggatha,
38:19
uh, you know, her whole storyline, the
38:21
whole, uh, dubious nature of her being
38:24
there because she was a shaman. Um, that
38:27
was cool. And then there was a random
38:29
murloc shaman that you couldn't talk to.
38:31
Like, there were little tiny bits and
38:33
pieces that like you could see they they
38:35
wanted to put effort into all of these,
38:37
but again, monumental effort. And would
38:39
I like to see something like order halls
38:41
in the future? Yes, if it makes sense.
38:44
But I think personally I'd rather see
38:47
larger orders in their order halls. So
38:51
what I mean by that is like the silver
38:53
covenant is back, right? We have like
38:57
that is a huge faction is a faction that
39:00
technically can span more than just
39:02
elves. um you have these larger groups,
39:06
these larger organizations that span
39:09
multiple classes. I'd like to see maybe
39:12
a move towards some of that instead of
39:14
individual class order halls where we
39:17
get to explore yes, maybe some of the
39:20
class aspects of it, but when we and
39:23
I've talked about this a while ago, this
39:25
actually led to a famous uh disagreement
39:27
between me and Matt. Um, we talked about
39:30
druids and shaman and those two working
39:33
together and what that would look like,
39:36
what that would present itself. And now
39:37
we have preservation evokers as well.
39:40
That
39:40
>> just less about that and more about
39:42
whether or not you count the druids.
39:45
>> Yes.
39:45
>> As tra as tracking back to before
39:49
uh the sundering.
39:51
>> Yeah. But I mean there was Yeah. But but
39:53
anyway, yeah, I I do think it's like the
39:55
one thing I always remember going all
39:56
the way up to Wrath of the Lich King is
39:58
the Argent Dawn.
40:00
>> Yeah,
40:00
>> guys, remember the Argent Dawn? Did they
40:02
have paladins? Yes. But were they
40:04
considered a paladin order? No. They
40:06
would anybody who'd show up and fight
40:08
undead was welcome. I spent a lot of
40:11
time grinding scorch stones. Remember
40:14
the scorch stone grind? It was real.
40:16
There was a reason I played a human back
40:18
then because it was like I could get
40:21
this done 10% faster if I were human
40:24
right now. I'm gonna play my human. Um
40:28
I I I miss the the Argent was showing up
40:32
a lot. They were they were even in
40:34
Outland like I don't even think they
40:36
knew why they were there. They're just
40:37
like, you know, hey, we fight bad things
40:39
and there's bad things here so let's go.
40:42
I honestly would love to see more groups
40:44
like that. groups that aren't like the
40:47
Kiranthtor has kind of lost whatever it
40:50
they've gone to their research goal and
40:52
that's fine but the for a while there
40:54
the Kieran wasn't just mages it was
40:57
anybody who felt like showing up to to
40:59
help prevent you know Malagos from
41:01
hijacking the lay lines I I feel like we
41:04
need more factions like that that aren't
41:06
rooted in one class or one faction
41:09
>> they're kind of like will you show up
41:11
and help us with this problem
41:12
>> and I want to get I want to get Eric's
41:14
take on this before I go into the the
41:16
the next thing about it. So, like Eric,
41:18
what are your what are your thoughts on
41:19
it?
41:19
>> Uh, do I want the class halls to come
41:21
back every expansion? Yes, but no. Like,
41:24
I don't want to be tied down to the same
41:26
class halls every time and have that be
41:28
the base. But, it's such a cool idea and
41:30
it was done really well. It's one of
41:32
those things that I missed at the time.
41:33
My my play time in Legion kind of
41:35
bottomed out. So, I got through the mage
41:37
one and now I I've done ones here and
41:40
there, but it's it's one of those things
41:42
where I've been savoring it and I don't
41:44
want to do more of them because then
41:45
they're done and I don't get to do it
41:47
anymore. And I know all the listeners
41:49
have that TV show or that video game
41:52
that they have that they don't want to
41:54
they they know they're going to enjoy
41:55
it, but they don't want to get through
41:56
it because then it'll be over. Um, I did
41:58
the death knight during remix and it was
42:01
great. Um, but not as a permanent
42:04
feature. I don't want to feel tied down
42:06
to it. I want it to feel like it's still
42:09
there, like like the characters are
42:11
still going back there, but I physically
42:14
don't have to port there all the time as
42:16
a mage. I liked in Blood Ties, the novel
42:19
where they, you know, we go, we go with
42:22
adventuring in Midnight with Arator. We
42:24
go through like you mentioned the
42:26
Paladin Order Hall. in Blood Ties, he
42:28
mentions some of like the leaders of the
42:31
class halls as like he name drops them
42:34
and it's like, "Oh, that was my warlock.
42:36
My warlock was that person that they're
42:38
not here right now. They're away. You
42:39
can you can leave a message for it."
42:40
That like those little things that make
42:42
it seem alive and vibrant are cool. I
42:45
would like to see more classbased quest
42:47
chains and stuff like more development
42:49
of like, you know, we we've heard a lot
42:52
from this and that, but like what are
42:54
the rogues up to? What kind of sneaky
42:55
stuff are they doing? like what kind of
42:57
things are really aligned with and yeah
42:58
more like factions that aren't just oh
43:00
you've gone to a new place and the
43:02
people there need your help and you're
43:04
now at reputation one so help them out
43:07
like the kind of coming together I'd
43:09
like to see like um like the combo class
43:12
halls like all the classes coming
43:14
together in groups of twos and threes
43:15
like uh the Hearthstone cards that are
43:18
the dual class like what if we had a pl
43:20
you know what we we need the druids and
43:22
the shamans to work together on
43:24
something and they get a project and
43:26
then we need the mages and the evokers
43:29
and the rogues to work together and they
43:30
get a project. I'd like to see something
43:32
like that and the class hall still be a
43:34
thing without having to always be going
43:38
back there and like you said the effort
43:40
in it. I think that part of part of the
43:42
reason why we didn't see an evoker class
43:43
hall in Remix was because that project
43:46
is designed to be kind of like a lower
43:49
lift and adding a whole another class
43:52
hall was just beyond the scope of it
43:54
because it is a ton of work like you
43:56
said. So yeah, I'd like to see them
43:59
exist more. Sure.
44:00
>> Yeah. And and the second part of the
44:02
question which I think I want to get
44:03
into too is the class specific questing
44:05
because we remember it fondly at least a
44:08
lot of us do if we got to experience it
44:10
or got getting to experience uh I don't
44:13
want to say the aftermath but the second
44:14
the second generation of them like the
44:17
green uh the green hellfire quest for or
44:20
fellfire quest for warlocks and uh
44:23
little things like that. Every class
44:26
Every class had quest uh class specific
44:28
quest I think except warriors at the
44:30
time. Um
44:32
>> warrior had a couple that were like
44:33
leveling.
44:34
>> Yeah, but it wasn't
44:35
>> they didn't have the closest they had to
44:37
a max level one was the one they shared
44:39
with Paladins
44:40
>> and Shaman didn't have a max level one
44:41
either because Shaman got
44:43
>> No, they did. They got that mask
44:45
>> that wasn't max level. That was
44:47
leveling.
44:48
>> Yeah, but it was close enough. But their
44:50
their theirs was also front-loaded is
44:52
where I was going to get to where cuz
44:54
back during vanilla you had to have
44:56
totems in your bags in order to use your
44:59
elemental spells of that that that
45:01
element. Um and the whole quest chain of
45:04
being a shaman was getting those. Like
45:06
that was the huge thing. I remember the
45:08
mass quest. You were definitely right.
45:09
It was definitely good. Um not quite.
45:12
>> I don't think it was I honestly I'll
45:13
tell you right now I didn't hate it. I
45:15
thought it was fun, but it very much
45:17
felt like they realized at the time
45:19
since this was vanilla, oh wait, we gave
45:21
the paladins a mount quest.
45:22
>> Yes, but we didn't give shaman anything.
45:26
>> Okay, quick, you get a mask.
45:28
>> Yeah. Um, but then like hunters had
45:31
really their epic quest for the bow for
45:35
for rock ladar and and uh getting the
45:38
the blue senue and all that stuff. Um
45:42
you if you were a warrior or an
45:45
enhancement shaman, you had a whole
45:47
quest line along forming uh the hand of
45:49
Ragnaros
45:51
uh which or
45:52
>> I think Pal and Drew could theoretically
45:54
do it too.
45:54
>> Yes, they could. And then uh uh
45:56
Thunderfury as well like those were epic
45:58
quest but they they were maybe less
46:01
class specific but they tended to
46:03
>> ro specific.
46:04
>> They they tended to be class specific
46:05
because only certain roles and certain
46:07
classes did them. But they were cool.
46:09
But again, level of effort, level of
46:12
work for one class getting to enjoy
46:14
something doesn't make sense when the
46:17
game is not niche anymore, right? So
46:21
like the other thing to consider is when
46:23
World of Warcraft first hit the the the
46:27
gaming, you know, PCs across the world,
46:31
they didn't expect it to last a year.
46:32
They were doing whatever they thought
46:35
was cool and whatever they thought made
46:37
sense. And there was a lot of not just
46:40
their past history from Warcraft, there
46:42
was a lot of D and D influence in it.
46:44
There was a lot of wouldn't it be cool
46:46
if we did this? Wouldn't it be cool if
46:48
this character did this? A lot of times
46:50
of I'm sure sitting around uh initing
46:54
adult beverages or substances and then
46:56
coming up with weird stuff because there
46:58
are some quests that's the only
46:59
explanation I can think of why they
47:01
exist. Um,
47:02
>> sometimes I like to think what if we
47:04
could take a time machine and go back to
47:05
like the writer room and the dev room 20
47:07
years ago and just tell them that people
47:09
are still playing the game 20 years from
47:11
now that they might make some decisions
47:14
different like that they'd
47:17
>> I think they would probably have
47:18
panicked
47:19
>> probably making different decisions.
47:21
>> Maybe maybe we shouldn't just take the
47:22
last three classes that we haven't come
47:24
up with a quest chain for yet and just
47:25
you know knock them out tonight and then
47:27
move on. And I mean, and some of the
47:29
thing other things to consider too is
47:31
like some of the questing created
47:34
imbalances in a lot of ways too. So like
47:37
you bring up the Paladin mount and the
47:38
Warlock mount quest. They got them out.
47:42
Nobody else did. And so that created a
47:46
little bit of resentment from players.
47:48
Uh it was the same reason.
47:50
>> Yeah.
47:50
>> Go ahead.
47:50
>> No, I'm agreeing. I just I remember I
47:53
got a legend like a not a legend. A rare
47:56
No, an epic man. use the right word, an
47:58
epic staff, the staff of Jordan dropped
48:00
for me on a dungeon and I I got it
48:03
because it was, you know, buying an
48:04
equip. Anybody could get it and I won
48:06
the roll and got it. And then I that's
48:08
only reason I got a mount was cuz I
48:10
didn't have the gold for a mount. Mounts
48:12
were very expensive.
48:14
>> Yeah.
48:14
>> Um the first mount you could get at
48:16
level 40 was still like over 100 gold,
48:19
>> which was insane at the time.
48:21
>> Yeah. And you I managed to drag myself
48:23
across the finish line for that. getting
48:25
an epic mount wasn't gonna happen until
48:28
I got that that epic and sold it for
48:31
just enough money. And the really funny
48:34
part was I didn't get the only reason I
48:36
got the book for uh for Quelar, not
48:40
quelsar, sorry. The only reason I got
48:42
the book for Querar was another warrior
48:44
in my guild said, "Hey, do you have your
48:45
Querar book?" And I was like, "No." He
48:47
goes, "Well, I farm that every day
48:49
here." And he gave me the book.
48:52
>> I could not have afforded it on the
48:53
auction house. He was one of those
48:55
people who didn't sleep. Like he he
48:57
farmed High Warlord by himself. He
49:00
didn't have friends trading in on it.
49:03
And I feel like having something like
49:05
Quel Serar, which had a ton of lore and
49:08
a ton of like really interesting lore
49:09
implications, it would be really hard to
49:12
put that in the game today because what
49:14
are you going to do? Limit it to like
49:15
two classes? That's crazy. You'd never
49:18
get away with that. But if if if every
49:21
class that can use a sword could get it,
49:23
it's going to be almost impossible to
49:24
get it.
49:25
>> And and they they did experiment with
49:28
this too cuz like let's let's talk we
49:30
can talk about some of the other
49:31
legendaries that they put into the game
49:34
like Thunder Fury and Hand of Rag were
49:36
absolutely those. But in, you know,
49:39
Wrath of the Lich King, healers were
49:41
going for Voler and Volir was a epic
49:46
quest line to assemble these pieces of
49:50
the law scepter of the earthn king uh
49:54
that he used to protect his people. It
49:55
was a really cool story line. Every
49:58
healer, every class that could heal
50:01
could go on that quest. And so it makes
50:05
an investment in something like that a
50:07
little more viable. Um the I remember
50:11
the what is it the dagger quest that you
50:13
got from Rathon if you were a rogue. But
50:16
that also felt a little weird because at
50:19
the time they had been moving away from
50:20
class specific stuff. Yet here was a
50:23
class specific quest that nobody else
50:25
got to experience unless they played a
50:27
rogue.
50:29
>> Um
50:29
>> and it was weird too because most of it
50:32
was soloable. a lot of it was and didn't
50:34
require a group.
50:36
>> I mean, you needed a group for like, you
50:37
know, the the big capstones of it, but
50:40
that you you were going to be in a raid
50:41
anyway. It's not like you had to put
50:44
together a special group just to do this
50:45
stuff. It was weird with that one
50:47
because, as you pointed out, it's just
50:49
rogues. Like, they never limited it that
50:52
much. Like, Thunder Fury isn't just, you
50:56
know, one group. It's it's paladins,
50:58
warriors, rogues. A lot of rogues used
51:01
Thunder Fury. It wasn't just a tanking
51:03
weapon because it had that proc that was
51:06
great for like a lot of DPS as well.
51:08
Even if you go back to like you were
51:10
talking about uh Valiner in the same
51:12
expansion they had shadow mourn.
51:14
>> Yep.
51:15
>> And shadow mourn was
51:18
>> and tanks.
51:19
>> Yeah. Death knights, warriors, paladins.
51:23
Um anybody could use a two-handed axe. I
51:25
don't think shaman could use a
51:26
two-handed axe. They could use maces.
51:28
>> Enhancement shaman could at the time.
51:30
>> Okay. I don't know of any any shaman who
51:32
>> Nobody went for it.
51:33
>> Yeah, I don't that doesn't mean they
51:35
couldn't take the quest. I don't think
51:36
the quest was I I think it was at the
51:39
time.
51:40
>> Okay. But regardless, I remember like my
51:43
my guild for both Valer and uh Shadow
51:47
Morn. My guild put together special
51:49
groups to make sure to funnel the pieces
51:52
to the people needed it. Like we we
51:54
would get we would get like a a valer
51:56
group where everybody was super
51:58
overgeeared except the one healer that
52:01
we brought so that all the valer pieces
52:03
would go to that one healer and then we
52:05
do we do it for another guy or I think
52:08
one one of our groups had two priests in
52:10
it and one priest already had valer so
52:13
she didn't have to take any pieces but
52:15
you know what I'm saying like we we
52:17
would be trying to get those so in a way
52:19
you got to see parts of the quest you
52:22
got to like I as a warrior I saw pieces
52:24
of the Valiant Air Quest just for
52:26
tanking it, you know, cuz there was like
52:28
all those pieces you had to gather. When
52:30
you got the thing like I I didn't know
52:33
what was happening like I when he
52:36
started using it, there was just bubbles
52:38
everywhere and nobody would die all of a
52:40
sudden. Like I don't think people
52:42
understand just how much Valer affected
52:44
like how much it affected. Uh, so quests
52:47
like that, Valer was one of those quests
52:49
that I honestly thought there's no way
52:51
they could do two of these in one
52:52
expansion. Then they did Shadow Morn the
52:54
same expansion. I'm like yikes. Just in
52:58
terms of like quest delivery, that's a
53:00
lot of quests to to have in one
53:02
expansion for two different legendaries
53:03
for two different roles. I don't I don't
53:06
know if if you could do that again.
53:08
honestly find myself wondering if it
53:10
would be better to use the Legion model
53:12
for the mounts. But that, you know, as
53:15
you pointed out, we're up to 13 classes.
53:17
If you did like quest class quests in
53:20
for everybody in one expansion, that'd
53:22
be 13 quest chains that you're
53:24
designing.
53:25
>> And you want each one to feel epic and
53:26
special.
53:27
>> Yeah.
53:27
>> You don't want it to just feel like you
53:30
got, you know, okay, you did these six
53:32
quests and here's your sword.
53:34
>> Yeah. Although the Quel the Lock quest
53:36
line does come to mind as one that had
53:37
had an option for everybody, but did
53:40
still kind of feel cool because you had
53:41
to go and you were in, you know, talking
53:44
to like Uther's ghost and getting like
53:47
chased out of like, you know, Arthus',
53:49
you know, bedroom essentially. There was
53:51
a lot of interesting stuff that wasn't
53:53
necessarily
53:55
limited by class. Like every I think
53:57
couldn't everybody get something from
53:59
like I thought they had even like maces
54:01
and all sorts of stuff. If you were a
54:03
healer, there was a healer option.
54:04
Although most of them
54:05
>> Yeah, there there there was a bunch of
54:07
stuff. I can't remember all the
54:09
specifics on it because I don't think I
54:10
ever really did it. Um,
54:11
>> no, you had Valer.
54:12
>> I had Valer, so I didn't really care.
54:15
>> People don't understand Valer would last
54:16
you the expand. It It's good that it had
54:18
a cool story because you weren't getting
54:20
anything else. Uh, I don't think that
54:22
anything even remotely like remotely
54:25
viable to overthrow it h dropped until
54:28
the midway through the the heroic rate.
54:30
Uh, it just wasn't anything.
54:32
>> Yeah. And go ahead. Go ahead, Eric.
54:34
>> If if we're going to do like classbased
54:38
quest, class-based anything, I want it
54:40
to develop my class. I want it to be
54:42
about that. I don't want it to be just
54:43
something that, you know, shamans get to
54:46
do because they got the invitation. I
54:47
want it to really get into like where
54:49
they get their power from and how they
54:52
balance it and the like what like more
54:55
of the evoker story and and things like
54:57
that because that's that's the best
55:00
kind. I don't I don't just I don't want
55:02
it to just be okay. So, you're a rogue,
55:05
so you can use have the use these
55:07
abilities and then you get uh you know,
55:09
cool leather hat. I I really want it to
55:12
be an exploration of either where you
55:15
get your power from, where the class is
55:17
going, so that there's more cohesive
55:19
identity, stuff like that. Um, and that
55:22
would be better than some of the ones
55:25
that I'm, you know, I'm not even
55:26
remembering from way back because they
55:28
weren't that memorable. It was just,
55:30
okay, now you're at level 10 because
55:31
you're a mage. You can you can make your
55:33
own staff for whatever it was. Um,
55:35
>> yeah, the shaman leveling quest, I got
55:36
to say, going from like one to like 40
55:40
as a shaman, the shaman quest for the
55:42
different totems and the abilities that
55:44
you learned and the traveling you went
55:46
to do and the guys people you interacted
55:47
with was really good. It just it felt
55:51
important in a way that a lot of stuff
55:54
other classes got just didn't. And it
55:56
felt epic because you had to go and you
55:58
like all got all the way back and you
56:00
were like, "All right, I found that guy
56:01
and he told taught me about wind." It's
56:03
like, "Good. The next one teaches you
56:04
about water." And then you pop in a
56:06
movie because it was like a 22minute run
56:08
through the barrens to find them. And
56:10
then you had to find them and there
56:11
really wasn't a anything pointing you
56:14
there. You It was just like somewhere
56:15
along the coast. And so you'd go up the
56:17
whole coast and you'd miss it.
56:19
>> Yeah. By the time you finally found it,
56:21
you'd be like, "Okay, I feel like I went
56:22
on both a spiritual journey and a
56:25
regular journey to get here." It felt a
56:27
little bit more epic. And now you have,
56:29
you know, quest pointers and arrows and
56:33
you just fly there on your rocket speed
56:36
mount. Um, so you the story needs to be
56:39
the thing that's epic, not just the
56:40
journey.
56:41
>> Yeah. And I and again I think that leans
56:43
into sort of what we're talking about
56:45
with like the order hall stuff again
56:48
like you can tell interesting stories
56:50
and interesting stuff involving the
56:52
classes but the constant struggle is how
56:55
do you balance that while making sure
56:57
all of them are quality and with the
57:00
everexpanding number of factions the
57:02
ever expanding number of classes we've
57:06
received um and everybody's class
57:08
fantasy being uh you know different,
57:11
right? There are so many even within a
57:14
class like I'll just use shaman as an
57:16
example. This is the one I know the
57:17
most. A restoration shaman and a mental
57:21
shaman and an enhancement shaman can all
57:24
sit down at the table and have a
57:25
conversation and they may all be shaman
57:28
and they may all understand the basic
57:30
core tenants of shamanism, but they all
57:33
care about different things. They all
57:36
approach it differently. They all want
57:38
something different from it. And so what
57:41
is an epic quest to a restoration shaman
57:44
compared to an epic quest for an
57:46
enhancement shaman compared to an epic
57:48
quest to an elemental shaman? It's going
57:50
to be wildly different. So if your class
57:52
identity isn't generic enough, you're
57:56
going to be let down. And we saw that
57:57
with some of the order hall stuff as
57:59
well. Um so
58:01
>> ironically, um this is something I've
58:04
been saying for a long time. And the
58:05
thing about Legion that I always that I
58:07
kept thinking about was that Legion in
58:10
its attempt to give people class
58:12
identity made one thing absolutely
58:14
clear. There is one class that does not
58:16
have class identity and that's warriors
58:18
because they're not there's it's it's
58:21
universal to the point where there is
58:24
it's just the it honestly feels like
58:26
warriors are the spiritual successors to
58:28
grunts and peons who are given a weapon
58:31
and just put out there. And if you get
58:33
to the point where you're like a heroic
58:35
warrior in a group doing, you know,
58:38
heroic things against these monsters and
58:40
gods and so forth, you are holding on by
58:43
the seat of your pants. You're like
58:44
clinging to your belt as hard as you can
58:46
to keep your pants up, just trying to
58:48
stay alive. And you don't have any of
58:51
that stuff like you you were just
58:53
saying, Eric, about how you want the
58:55
class to be about the source of your
58:56
power. Warriors don't have a source of
58:58
their power. that's just yelling and
59:00
hitting things and probably being really
59:04
really afraid the whole time. Paladins
59:07
call upon the light. Warlocks are
59:09
summoning fell. Shaman are speaking to
59:11
the elements and spirits. Warriors are
59:14
looking down at their sword going,
59:15
"Okay, sword. I'm going to poke you at a
59:19
whole bunch of things." I just I would
59:21
love a class like a warrior class quest
59:23
that was just about the fact that
59:25
warriors don't have an identity other
59:28
than the super basic one. And it's kind
59:31
of like fighters from D and D, isn't it?
59:33
I'm a fighter. I fight. That's it. Do
59:37
you fight with a rapier? Yes. Do you
59:39
fight with a great sword? I could. You
59:41
know, warriors could do that. Warriors
59:44
can equip practically everything, even
59:45
stavs. There was a there was a melee
59:48
staff in in um Zulgar. Do you guys
59:51
remember it? The it was like a blue
59:53
melee staff. Yeah, it was crazy. It had
59:56
the the the top end damage was so good
59:59
that it actually could replace the
1:00:01
Arcanite Reaver if you wanted to do
1:00:03
really crazy mortal strikes. You could
1:00:05
hit people with this this melee staff
1:00:07
that dropped you had to drop it off the
1:00:08
boss that you could fish up. I don't
1:00:10
know if you guys remember that thing,
1:00:11
but
1:00:11
>> Oh, yeah. the
1:00:13
>> and uh it it just that was a cool little
1:00:16
Easter egg. I feel like it's so hard to
1:00:20
balance. Can you make this cool and epic
1:00:22
enough to make it worth the time of
1:00:25
putting it in? And some classes have a
1:00:28
lot to give you. I think shaman, uh
1:00:31
death knights, paladins,
1:00:33
uh warlocks have a lot that you can draw
1:00:36
on for it. Other classes don't have as
1:00:38
much. And I don't think that I honestly
1:00:40
think for warriors it would be a mistake
1:00:42
to try to make there some religious
1:00:44
order of warrior. No, we're we're just
1:00:47
people who who pick up swords and go out
1:00:49
there and fight.
1:00:50
>> Well, that's a quest. That's a question
1:00:51
chain right there. A crisis of identity.
1:00:53
Who are we?
1:00:54
>> Well, we're people who fight things. I I
1:00:56
honestly feel like, you know, if you
1:00:58
guys have read the Glen Cook Black
1:00:59
Company stories, I think that's a really
1:01:00
good example of what a warrior is. Um,
1:01:04
but I'm rambling here and I need to shut
1:01:06
up so Joe can talk. No, but I I think
1:01:08
we're going to be at time there, unless
1:01:10
there's anything you want to add, Eric.
1:01:12
>> Uh, no, I think we wrapped it up.
1:01:14
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