Up next in 10
This week our usual crew of Joe, Matt, and Eric was joined by Liz to discuss William Gibson's novel Neuromancer. This 1984 novel was foundational to the cyberpunk genre in many ways, from establishing the grittiness of the setting all the way down to shaping the way this genre looks and feels across different types of media. The crew discuss themes through Neuromancer which are also inherent through a lot of cyberpunk media now, like the idea of what makes a person, and whether an AI could ever have personhood. They also discuss how older tech can affect our modern reading of futuristic media -- if you've never seen a payphone, you probably have no idea how eerie a bank of them ringing all at once would be, but then Gibson would have no way of knowing where payphone tech ended up today.
It's a great conversation on a foundational work of sci-fi, and if you haven't picked it up, Joe has some suggestions as to where to get it online while still benefitting your local book store.
Subscribe to Lore Watch in your podcast player for more video game lore:
RSS: https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/6556539150cd070012089193
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lore-watch-podcast/id1023224738
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1CIJRbwbEVQfCg8r94HCwO
Visit us at https://blizzardwatch.com for the latest news on Blizzard games, and don't forget to subscribe on Patreon to support our efforts! https://www.patreon.com/blizzardwatch
Discord: https://discord.gg/MY9p4d7t8U
Bluesky: @blizzardwatch.com
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:24
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:27
table free form discussion about lore in
0:28
your favorite media. I'm your host, Joe
0:30
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:32
from Blizzard Watch. And I've got a
0:34
cavalcade of wonderful companions today.
0:37
Uh, as always, my stalwart decker, Matt
0:40
Rossy. How you doing today, Matt?
0:42
>> It turns out I can't ever be king of
0:44
Ireland.
0:44
>> I We're going to delve into that at some
0:46
point because I have so many questions
0:48
about that statement.
0:48
>> Yes, we will get to it.
0:50
>> Uh, also joining us, as is usual
0:53
nowadays, uh, is our fixer Eric ODay.
0:56
How you doing, Eric?
0:57
>> Hey, Joe. Um, I'm good. I have I have no
1:00
um neural implants or parts yet. Um, but
1:03
I'm I'm willing to learn.
1:05
>> Fantastic. And our street samurai
1:07
joining us today is none other than
1:09
editor-inchief Liz Harper. How you
1:10
doing, Liz?
1:11
>> I am under a literal blizzard watch
1:13
right now. So, this is not normal for
1:16
me. I'm usually watching the blizzards,
1:19
not being watched by the blizzards. So,
1:22
it's a little concerning over here, to
1:24
be honest. I'm just saying. There's a
1:26
joke in there about the abyss screaming
1:27
back to you. Uh
1:30
>> well friends,
1:31
>> tell us more about the war.
1:35
>> Well, we're not going to be talking
1:36
about the fantasy side of things.
1:37
Although there is an element of fantasy
1:39
in what we're going to be talking about
1:40
today. Instead, we are doing a of
1:42
requested off topic. Uh we're going to
1:45
dive into the William Gibson novel
1:49
Neurommancer.
1:50
uh as well as how it shaped the modern
1:54
perception of cyberpunk and really a
1:57
large swath of sci-fi influence in from
2:00
this 1984 novel. Um so it is set in a
2:06
near dystopian future. Uh, and the
2:08
narrative follows roughly a uh a person
2:11
by the name of Case uh a computer hacker
2:13
who is enlisted by uh a essentially a
2:16
street crew uh which seems to be headed
2:20
by you know a ex soldier that seems to
2:24
be completely traumatized. There's a
2:26
whole bunch of stuff here going on. Um
2:28
and it is the first novel in a series
2:31
called The Sprawl. If you've ever seen
2:34
Cyberpunk 2077, the old Cyberpunk Red
2:37
role playing game, the new one, uh if
2:39
you've seen Sprawl, which is the uh
2:42
Blades in the Dark/M Power by the
2:44
Apocalypse version of Cyberpunk, then
2:47
you've probably seen all these themes.
2:49
If you've ever watched a movie uh that
2:51
has existed from the late 80s through
2:53
the '9s, uh like Johnny Nemonic and so
2:56
many others, you're going to notice that
2:58
a lot of themes that we'll talk about in
2:59
this book were present there. And there
3:02
is
3:02
>> similar to hattrick.
3:04
>> Yeah.
3:04
>> But with an M and an X.
3:06
>> Um the the interesting thing about it is
3:09
I think for at least for me Gibson uh
3:12
before this was very much into writing
3:15
counterculture short stories for science
3:17
fiction periodicals. Uh in Neuromat was
3:19
sort of like the culmination of it. Uh
3:24
and it has a lot of that you're always
3:27
plugged in. you're always uh being
3:31
watched. Everything's always there. And
3:33
it started a conversation in 1984 that I
3:37
think is very relevant even today, which
3:39
centers around artificial intelligence,
3:42
what it actually is, and when does it
3:44
stop being a program, which is wild to
3:49
think of that this in 1984 is being
3:51
relevant here. Now, um there is also a
3:55
series of frame uh
3:58
sorry themes and terminology uh that you
4:01
will see present here that was uh sort
4:03
of from the beginning terms like
4:05
cyerspace the matrix jacking in ICE not
4:09
the one you're thinking about intrusion
4:10
countermeasures electronics which also
4:12
has become after this a common term for
4:16
cyber security firewalls uh that you use
4:20
possibly in everyday life we refer to it
4:22
as ICE a lot of the time um it also
4:25
establishes a very specific aesthetic
4:28
that you'll see that has sort of
4:30
influenced a lot of the stuff. The you
4:32
have this gritty neon lit, grungy, urban
4:36
decay with this huge emphasis on
4:39
corporations owning and running
4:41
everything. Uh cybernetic implants being
4:44
used for physical augmentations, uh
4:46
street level tech that isn't quite as
4:48
good as what you would find from a
4:51
corporation, but you know, it might be a
4:53
little dirty. It might have come from a
4:54
corpse. You don't know. Um, but this
4:57
really like these things right here are,
4:59
as far as I'm concerned, some of the
5:02
core lasting elements that have sort of
5:04
been influential through sci-fi and
5:07
cyberpunk since this novel hit the
5:10
ground.
5:12
Um, I'm going to turn it over to anybody
5:15
else who wants to jump in here before we
5:16
circle into specifics about the story,
5:18
but like the it there's a reason this
5:22
has stuck around for so long and why
5:23
it's been so influent influ and
5:25
>> it's been so influenza.
5:27
>> Yeah.
5:28
>> In a way, it has um it has been viral.
5:31
Uh, one of the things I wanted to jump
5:32
on in here before uh everybody else gets
5:34
rolling is that Gibson wasn't working in
5:36
a vacuum.
5:39
And one of the reasons that he's his
5:41
work is considered to be so foundational
5:45
to cyberpunk is because it took elements
5:48
and themes from a whole lot of different
5:50
stories that you wouldn't call
5:52
necessarily cyberpunk but brought them
5:55
all together into one place. Uh one
5:57
example for this is writers like Tip
6:00
Tree or Philip K.
6:01
who were kind of skating on the edge of
6:04
it like with with the various Bladeunner
6:07
is often considered a cyberpunk movie
6:09
even though it's based on do Android's
6:11
dream of electric sheep which is before
6:14
Gibson wrote neurommancer but there's a
6:17
reason that it's considered cyberpunk in
6:19
that many of the themes and elements
6:20
about you know are we really human uh
6:24
how much of our lives is being
6:25
controlled by people using technology
6:28
how much of uh you know the entire idea
6:30
a of losing who you are just because of
6:34
the the society you live in. There's a
6:36
lot of that there and there's lots of
6:38
other books like that. But the the the
6:40
real triumph of Neurommancer is that it
6:44
kind of it's sort of written at a pace
6:46
that one could call lunatic. Like it's
6:49
it is it is a book that is grabbing you.
6:52
It grabs you and it just jams you like
6:55
it's like it's holding you by the back
6:56
of the head and jamming you face first
6:58
into a river of information and ideas
7:02
and in a way it kind of replicates the
7:04
whole concept of how cyberpunk works in
7:06
the novel and that's something I always
7:08
like to point out to people just because
7:10
people often miss it. This is a book
7:12
that is written at a white hot level of
7:14
intensity. And
7:15
>> and I will add to that too that if you
7:17
haven't read this one, but you've seen
7:19
the TV show Altered Carbon, Altered
7:21
Carbon, the TV show slowed down the
7:23
book. The book series for Altered Carbon
7:26
is written at the same pace as that
7:28
William Gibson established in his
7:31
neurommancer series in the Sprawl
7:33
trilogy because all of the books follow
7:34
this pace.
7:35
>> Like there is there is sort of this like
7:39
frantic pace really is the best way I
7:40
can put it. There's like this sense of
7:41
urgency for everything. Everything has
7:43
crunch time. Everything has to be done
7:45
pretty quickly. There's very little
7:47
downtime. Go ahead, Liz. I heard you
7:48
light up.
7:49
>> It's I mean, it's not a languid novel.
7:51
There's all all three of the Sprawl
7:53
books are stuff is happening. You can't
7:55
ignore it. It's happening. It's going to
7:57
keep happening. And it's just just from
8:00
an artistic standpoint, they're very
8:02
well-paced books. They are books that
8:04
grab you and do not let you go because
8:06
that's the state of the story. the story
8:08
starts and it doesn't slow down and
8:10
there's not an offramp anywhere.
8:11
>> Yeah, I think you're, you know,
8:13
Neurommancer definitely establishes
8:14
this. I would argue that Count Zero is
8:17
what formalizes.
8:18
>> Agreed.
8:19
>> When Count Zero comes along, it's it's
8:22
this is now part of this this we want
8:24
you to feel the kind of blind panic that
8:26
everybody does when they're dealing with
8:28
faceless entities that set the tone and
8:31
the time and you have no control over.
8:33
And I feel like it's not just the the
8:35
stuff that happens and the events and
8:36
the pace. It's the terms and the the the
8:39
glossery of things you need to
8:41
understand that you can't because it
8:43
hasn't been explained yet. And they
8:44
don't introduce stuff one by one so you
8:46
know what's going on. It's like
8:48
intentional that you have no idea what's
8:49
going on right away. So I haven't read
8:51
Neurommancer, but I have had it on my
8:54
list of the next novel to read maybe for
8:56
like 15 years. And I was able to get the
8:59
first like 20% of it read before we
9:01
recorded now. And it really like you
9:04
read the first three pages and you're
9:05
like, I didn't get any of that. And then
9:07
you read it again and you're like, okay,
9:09
well, I got enough to know what was
9:11
happening, but I don't know what a lot
9:12
of the stuff means. And then you get it
9:14
later. But you have to pick up
9:16
>> through context, too. Sometimes
9:18
sometimes they just never explain what
9:20
that meant.
9:21
>> That's just contextual clues.
9:23
>> That's also one of the things I think is
9:24
really, and maybe I'm I'm in the
9:26
minority here, I think that's actually a
9:28
nice feature of Gibson's writing. One of
9:30
the things that I and and this comes
9:32
from recent reading. Uh I've been trying
9:35
to branch out into other books and and
9:37
really been sort of like you know how
9:39
you get the recommendations based off of
9:41
your uh your reading patterns. Well, I
9:43
haven't been listening to like Audible
9:44
or stuff like that. I've been using
9:45
something called Libro.fm and helping to
9:47
support local uh local bookstores in
9:50
your area. Highly recommend it if you're
9:51
looking for the audio books. um uh the
9:55
suggestions that it gives me a lot of
9:57
times the writers and I'm noticing how
9:59
much I dislike this spend so much time
10:02
explaining everything that it takes you
10:06
out of the story. And one of the things
10:08
that I think was really special about
10:10
how Neurommancer was written is that it
10:14
treated you like you already knew what
10:16
was going on and what the terms were.
10:19
And at the end of the day, it doesn't
10:20
matter if you have no idea what any of
10:22
them mean because the ones you do need
10:25
to know, you get the context clues of
10:27
and they
10:28
>> see that was a square,
10:29
>> right? Or or or obviously that's that
10:32
was delletterious to the main character
10:34
or whatever the case is, you understand
10:36
through the context of it. And the ones
10:37
that aren't just fade away into the
10:39
background and establish the world and
10:41
the universe that you're you're going to
10:43
be exploring potentially for three
10:45
books. So it it almost is like respect
10:49
that I find that more respectful to the
10:51
reader in a way. Um because at the end
10:53
of the day I don't want to I don't need
10:55
a glossery in the front of the book. I
10:56
don't need a separate book to tell me
10:59
what everything is inside of this book.
11:01
I just want to enjoy the world and I
11:02
find that way more immersive. uh
11:04
especially when listening to the
11:05
audiobook version of these where that
11:08
sort of frantic pace, the throwing you
11:11
in with the terminology, the the the
11:13
sort of like just treating you like you
11:15
already know what's going on in the
11:17
world draws you further into the story
11:19
and in my opinion makes it a little more
11:21
memorable. And I think that's actually
11:23
part of why this has become such a
11:25
mainstay for like science fiction and
11:28
cyberpunk in general and why this is
11:30
often at the forefront of the debate of
11:33
what came first, cyberpunk or
11:34
neurommancer. So like cuz that that is a
11:38
debate that happens quite a bit.
11:40
>> Yeah. I think it's fair to say that what
11:42
happens before neurommancer I usually
11:45
call it protocypunk.
11:47
>> Yeah. or pre-Cyberpunk because there's
11:49
certainly, like I said, less elements
11:51
and themes.
11:52
>> Um, oh, go ahead.
11:54
>> You you have the movie Bladeunner that
11:57
was released in 1982, I believe,
12:00
>> uh, which is just a couple of years
12:01
before Neurommancer, the book, came out.
12:03
And while we can argue about, well, was
12:06
Android's Dream of Electric Sheep? Is
12:08
that really cyberpunk? Bladeunner the
12:11
movie really hits down on an aesthetic
12:14
that I would consider cyberpunk. and
12:16
some of those themes and looks that are
12:19
really classic cyberpunk. So it feels
12:21
like this is something
12:22
>> something larger that's coalescing in
12:25
science fiction now that really goes
12:28
back to Philip K. Dick or possibly even
12:30
farther than that. But Dick is the one
12:32
that I think of.
12:33
>> I would definitely put Bester in there.
12:36
>> Yeah. Tiger or the star is my
12:37
destination.
12:39
>> Um I but there's that's the thing. We
12:41
could sit here and like divert ourselves
12:42
into talking about people who came
12:44
before Gibson until we're blue in the
12:45
face. There's several people I would
12:47
want to mention including CL Moore who
12:50
wrote the uh a lot of really good um
12:53
space stories including Shamlau. Uh, but
12:56
in the end I think we it's it is fitting
12:59
to talk about Nurmancer because I really
13:00
do think before Nurommancer it's much
13:02
the same as saying sure there were weird
13:04
cosmic horror stories before HP
13:06
Lovecraft but after Lovecraft the
13:09
there's tropes that are established that
13:12
to this day have power and weight.
13:14
talked about the same thing with I think
13:17
it was Tolken we were talking about like
13:18
he didn't come up with elves and dwarves
13:20
but he kind of served as a focus as a
13:22
lens to have everything after have some
13:24
kind of consistency and that that's what
13:26
this feels like too like a lot of these
13:28
ideas were out there but bringing
13:29
together a certain set of them and
13:31
having almost like ground rules for a
13:34
technology dystopia story whether it's a
13:37
movie or a novel um it feels like a lot
13:40
of it always comes back to this whenever
13:41
I've read anything like I've read other
13:43
things that are like and of course
13:45
starting with neurommancer here is we
13:48
have something like it's it's it seems
13:50
like it's unrelated and then you see
13:51
that it actually is
13:52
>> and interestingly enough another one
13:54
that I think has to enter in this
13:55
conversation that that came very shortly
13:57
after Neurommancer
13:59
um which is an actually an anime uh
14:02
manga series an OVA um which is
14:05
Bubblegum Crisis 2 which
14:07
>> okay I'm going to have to come in after
14:09
go
14:11
>> but I mean it's another one that a lot
14:13
of people That was some of their first
14:14
introduction to it. But again, the
14:15
themes of it were, even though it came
14:18
after, you could tell was definitely
14:20
influenced by the the uh writing of
14:24
Neurommancer, sort of that establishment
14:26
and the the writing of Philip K. Dick
14:29
and sort of again codifying a lot of the
14:32
the visual cues that were put in there.
14:34
Like one of the things that I think is
14:36
very I I I want to come back to just
14:38
real quick. the opening line of
14:39
neurommancer because I think it in and
14:42
of itself is a a wonderful like
14:44
encapsulation of what all these things
14:45
sort of trending with which is and maybe
14:48
some of our readers will not have
14:50
understand the context of this anymore
14:51
because we're getting to a day and age
14:52
where even Gibson himself in interviews
14:55
is saying the line has sort of been a a
14:59
gut punch for multiple generations and
15:02
it's now starting to trail off. Um, but
15:04
it's the sky above the port was the
15:06
color of television turned to a or tuned
15:08
to a dead channel. Um, and if you grew
15:11
up knowing what a dead channel looked
15:13
like, whether it was the multicolored
15:16
uh, you know, bands with the the like
15:19
high-pitched wine in the background or
15:21
the static of broadcast television, it
15:25
sort of informs you of what you're in
15:27
for. It's this sort of discordant
15:29
nonsense that is about to shake your
15:32
your belief in reality. And then that's
15:35
what other things have done as well.
15:37
Like again, Bladeunner does this as well
15:40
with it establishing shots and it's
15:42
establishing parameters. Bubblegum
15:44
Crisis does the exact same thing just
15:46
with more Mecca. Um, and I'll turn it
15:48
over to Matt because I think Matt wanted
15:49
to say something with me adding
15:50
Bubblegum Crisis into the
15:51
>> It's just that I I don't I cannot allow
15:54
you to bring up anime or manga that are
15:57
considered influenced by or influential
15:59
to the cyberpunk genre and not mention
16:02
Akira.
16:03
>> Yeah,
16:04
>> it's not possible. I have to or I'll
16:06
die. So, here it is real briefly. Akira
16:10
originally came out as a manga in 1982,
16:13
which is two years before Neurommancer,
16:15
but the movie came out in 1988. And it
16:18
is the movie that many people have been
16:21
influenced by. And it is almost to the
16:24
point where visually speaking, the two
16:27
the two sources for what cyberpunk looks
16:30
like are descriptions from William
16:32
Gibson and the films Bladeunner and
16:34
Akira.
16:35
>> Yeah.
16:36
and Akira to the point where video games
16:39
that are calling themselves Cyberpunk,
16:41
and we'll get to more of that in a
16:42
second, but they actually steal the
16:45
vehicles from Akira and they steal the
16:49
aesthetic from Bubblegum Crisis. It's
16:52
It's often almost one for one.
16:54
>> I mean, do we also throw in Hardwired
16:56
from John Williams in there as well
16:57
then?
16:58
>> Sure, why not? You could throw in You
17:00
could throw in Robocop. Uh, you know,
17:03
>> Yeah. I mean, seriously, Robocop is a
17:05
cyberpunk dystopia.
17:06
>> A cyber punk story.
17:07
>> Yeah, it's a dystopia. Evil corporation
17:10
guy who gets implants he doesn't want.
17:12
Uh, it just
17:14
>> it it it's one to one, guys.
17:17
>> But we we do have to move back now to
17:19
talking about why Neurommancer did what
17:21
it did, why it was kind of like the drop
17:23
of salt that caused the rest of it to go
17:25
into into, you know, crystallization. It
17:28
went from dissolved to not. And how did
17:31
that happen and why? And I really think
17:34
what Joe mentioned with that opening
17:35
line from that line to the very end,
17:38
which is he never saw Molly again. And
17:40
we got to talk about Molly at some point
17:42
because oh my god, Molly's one of my
17:43
favorite characters. Um, but the the the
17:46
the start of the Sprawl trilogy, it's
17:49
like if you took Naked Lunch and made it
17:51
digital in terms of like how Naked Lunch
17:53
was all about psychotropics, but it was
17:55
showing you the things that ordinarily
17:58
would be metaphorical, showing them to
18:00
you literally. Uh, I still remember the
18:03
concept of flatline.
18:05
>> Um, the idea that you could die mentally
18:07
and your body would still be alive with
18:09
nothing wrong with it, but there'd be no
18:12
you any. And that's something we've
18:13
often talked about. He took it and made
18:16
it something literal. So, you could
18:18
actually look at it and think about it
18:20
and it's like technology will burn out
18:23
your soul and turn you and he's like,
18:24
"No, literally it will do that here.
18:26
You'll actually die, but you'll still be
18:28
alive." And that's one of the things
18:30
it's just it's so emblematic of a time
18:33
where we were starting to recognize, oh,
18:35
we're building a a horrible detached
18:37
society that cares more about money than
18:38
people.
18:39
>> Well, not even that we're still going to
18:41
keep doing it.
18:41
>> We're advancing technology at such an
18:43
explosive rate that we don't understand
18:46
the full capacity of what we're building
18:48
yet, right? like we're we're still in
18:51
the era of like postworld war II where
18:55
you know the atomic bomb even in the 80s
18:58
like '7s and ' 80s you can see the
19:00
influence of it and the creation of that
19:02
technology in sort of like this doomsday
19:05
mentality and like the same idea with uh
19:09
I'm going to just kind of poke the bear
19:11
here Liz's favorite character uh
19:15
uh which is uh the the the flatline uh
19:18
good old Dixie
19:19
Um, but like this idea too that like you
19:23
could die but not fully like a world
19:28
that won't won't even let you die which
19:32
is
19:33
>> absolutely one of the like again this
19:36
establishing gut punch uh like moments
19:40
right because the character um which uh
19:44
I can never remember Dixie second um but
19:48
Even the
19:49
>> Isn't it Dixie Flatline? I thought it
19:51
was.
19:51
>> That's a It's a nickname.
19:53
>> Yeah, Dixie Flatline is
19:54
>> because he flatlined so much.
19:56
>> Yeah. Um but Dixie Flatline even says
19:59
like as one of the things when when
20:00
Casease is given access to to Dixie when
20:04
gets access to him who used to be a
20:06
friend or at least a compatriate of Case
20:09
in the book. One of the things that that
20:12
Dixie wants is to be deleted forever.
20:15
like it's one of those things where it's
20:18
even this program this this supposed
20:21
artificial intelligence or not quite
20:23
artificial intelligence uh just wants to
20:26
die. Just doesn't want to exist anymore
20:28
because existence is nothingness already
20:30
for it. When it's not booted up and when
20:33
it's booted up it's like no time has
20:35
passed. That ain't to quote that ain't
20:37
living brother. Like it's it's
20:41
fascinating and it's a a really like
20:44
this informative and sort of shaping
20:47
moment because the corporation wanted
20:49
him to be an asset even in death that
20:51
they couldn't
20:52
>> I looked it up by the way his name was
20:53
McCauley Paulie McCoy Paulie sorry
20:56
>> yeah that's McCoy that's it um but yeah
20:59
like that even the corporation he was
21:01
too valuable to let go and so they just
21:04
didn't right
21:06
>> yep
21:07
>> again this this theme that you'll see
21:09
repeated and reverberated throughout all
21:12
sorts of media. Um, do you want to talk
21:14
about Molly? Like, you want to go into
21:17
it a little bit?
21:18
>> Well, Molly as a character is doesn't
21:21
get her real exploration until later.
21:25
Like, this book is not about Molly.
21:27
>> Mhm.
21:28
>> She's in it and she's amazing, but it's
21:31
definitely not her story. It's Case's
21:33
story. Um, it's the story of like, you
21:35
know, how he is forced into doing
21:36
something. Uh, and but Molly's
21:40
essentially the the badass who keeps him
21:43
alive. Uh, while they're doing all these
21:45
things, who is the the one who does the
21:48
violence,
21:49
>> who first who first appeared in the
21:50
short story Johnny Nemonic by William
21:52
Gibson, which you might also know from
21:54
from a wonderful wonderful cinema of the
21:57
'9s.
21:59
>> Yeah. I mean it is she is basically she
22:02
she is the thing that so many of us
22:05
think of when we think of cyberpunk the
22:07
person who is chromeed and that comes
22:10
from this and has never gone away. Um
22:13
someone who's heavily augmented. They
22:15
have a lot of implants. They're
22:17
basically designed to kill people and
22:20
steal things. Like they that's what
22:22
they're for. And it's like they've taken
22:24
their humanity and kind of removed it.
22:28
uh eventually as we go through the books
22:29
uh especially I think in um Mona Lisa
22:33
Overdrive where she is a pretty
22:35
important character uh she's not
22:38
>> which I think she her name there is
22:40
different yeah it's like Sally Shears I
22:42
think
22:43
>> yeah but it's her and Gibson tells us
22:46
it's her at some points
22:48
>> um basically it's about that idea that
22:52
they've basically given away something
22:55
to survive and that's a big part of
22:57
cyberpunk is this idea that you you have
22:59
to make sacrifices just to live. You
23:02
don't you don't get to live a normal
23:05
life. You don't get to have happy
23:06
endings. You get you use you basically
23:09
you either get chewed up and spit out,
23:11
which is kind of like what happens to
23:13
most people. You get put on the hook
23:16
like Dixs is where you're just forever
23:19
they they've turned you into an asset
23:22
>> instead of a person. I I argue that
23:24
that's Dixiey's whole problem is that
23:26
he's being held captive. Go ahead, Liz.
23:28
>> I mean, McCoy Polly was paid a lot of
23:31
money to [ __ ] to sit and let them record
23:34
his brain pattern, which became the
23:37
Dixie Flatline.
23:39
>> That's just it. McCoy uh he lived, he
23:42
died, but they had a recording of him.
23:44
And the recording is a separate thing.
23:46
It is its own thing. It is not a person.
23:48
It's property now. It's a recording of
23:50
his personality matrix. that
23:53
existically, but they made him that. And
23:56
now the fact that he can still say,
23:58
"Wait, I have I have wants and needs."
24:00
>> They don't care. You don't That doesn't
24:02
matter to us. You're recording.
24:04
>> You know, there I mean there's as we
24:07
look into we're talking about the human
24:10
characters of Neurommancer, but there
24:13
are in fact nonhuman characters, which
24:16
is like the Dixie Flatline. What makes a
24:19
human person? What? Big question. Yeah,
24:22
absolutely. And that's also very much
24:24
that's Molly's entire thing is am I
24:27
still human?
24:29
>> Like what have I given have I given up?
24:30
Like especially in Monisa Overdrive,
24:32
which is of course not Neurommancer. Uh
24:34
in Mona Overdrive, it's really a focus,
24:36
but in Neurommancer, she I'd say she's
24:39
more there to basically be an example.
24:42
Like it's it is not her story, but I
24:44
just I love her and will always love
24:46
her.
24:47
>> Yeah. Let's but I do want to kind of
24:48
like go back to the a the the artificial
24:51
intelligence the programming uh
24:53
personalities because this is a a very
24:56
important theme that is carried over and
25:00
throughout all the series and to Liz's
25:02
point like is probably more important
25:04
almost than the human character. Um
25:06
Neurommancer is actually the name of one
25:08
of the AIs in the story. It is a sibling
25:11
AI to uh what's called Winter Mute. Um,
25:16
and in the books they've established
25:18
that uh these AIs are have the ability
25:23
to sort of like copy mines and run them
25:28
as RAM, random access memory, not ROM,
25:31
like a flatline. A flatline cannot live.
25:34
And that's one of the things that they
25:35
established going back to the whole
25:37
Dixie flatline. It is static. When you
25:41
turn it off, it stops existing. And when
25:43
it wakes up, it can process data you
25:47
give it. Does this sound familiar to
25:48
anything? Um, in by by basically
25:53
downloading their consciousness or using
25:56
uh human minds as RAM, it allows these
26:00
stored personalities to grow and
26:02
develop. And this is such a problem that
26:06
there's even a organization that has
26:08
been established in uh this universe the
26:12
touring uh uh bure the bureau bureau of
26:15
touring or touring bureau
26:16
>> touring registry.
26:17
>> Thank you. That actively very actively
26:21
monitors artificial intelligence and
26:24
whether it's growing too much and has
26:27
access to do things like magnetically
26:30
erase it from existence if it needs to.
26:32
Um, which also becomes the central point
26:34
of this because like Liz said, what is
26:37
being human? What is being alive? And
26:40
Wintermute is really that's what it
26:45
wants. It it it wants to know that it is
26:48
alive. That's one of the the things,
26:50
right? It it argues with case. It it
26:55
basically makes its case that I am a
26:58
living thing being contained against my
27:01
will. And when Kay says, "No, you're an
27:03
artificial intelligence." He's like,
27:04
"But I am intelligence." Right? Like
27:06
it's this this big conversation that is
27:09
that is absolutely just fascinating. It
27:11
happens multiple times, right? the the
27:13
this sort of arc is done by essentially
27:18
Wintermute interfacing with Case
27:20
directly or indirectly, whether it's
27:22
through the framework of somebody
27:24
familiar to him feeding off of Case's
27:27
own memories, using Case's mind as some
27:29
of that RAM in order to have that
27:31
conversation.
27:32
uh or the and I can't remember the name
27:35
of the person that they basically are
27:37
puppeting the entire time, but one of
27:40
the big spoilers is that Wintermute has
27:42
basically been riding around in an
27:45
exmilitary
27:47
uh shell shocked personality because
27:50
that personality, that person was
27:52
essentially broken and dying in a
27:54
hospital. And Warner said, "Well, I can
27:57
give you a second chance. Just, you
27:58
know, agree to this. Let me in." And
28:00
did. and the slow psychosis that comes
28:04
from that of two personalities
28:06
inhabiting the same body that sort of
28:09
inevitable destruction. Like all these
28:12
are themes that are explored throughout
28:13
the novel and again would carry over
28:17
into so much of what is cyberpunk as we
28:20
know it. Um I don't want to ruin too
28:23
much about the book and how it ends
28:24
because I do want to encourage people to
28:26
really read it. I do want to talk about
28:28
how we these influences carry forward
28:31
and I want to give Liz an opportunity to
28:33
talk if there's because there is
28:35
something I know that Liz feels very
28:36
strongly about involving this and
28:38
Cyberpunk 2077 and I'm going to give her
28:41
the opportunity to bring it up because I
28:42
I it's relevant here. I think it's very
28:44
very relevant.
28:45
>> I I mean are we are we talking about
28:47
Cyberpunk 2077 here? Because that's the
28:51
thing. I think probably more people are
28:54
familiar with playing Cyberpunk 2077
28:56
than they are with reading Neurommancer,
28:58
but Cyberpunk 2077 draws a lot of things
29:02
straight from Neurommancer, which we've
29:03
been talking about the Dixie Flatline.
29:05
In Cyberpunk 2077, Johnny Silverhand is
29:08
your Dixie Flatline. He is a personality
29:10
construct that was copied and saved and
29:13
is now with a whole problem all of its
29:16
own.
29:17
>> You know, it's actually kind of Now that
29:18
you bring that up, it makes me think of
29:20
something. It's actually kind of elegant
29:21
how they made Johnny is both Dixie
29:24
Flatline and the poison.
29:26
>> Yeah,
29:28
>> because that's the other thing that in
29:30
the novel is that in order to get cases
29:32
uh
29:33
>> cooperation,
29:34
>> let's say cooperation
29:36
>> uh they inject him with a poison that
29:39
unless a very very specific
29:42
um agent is administered in a very
29:44
specific way that only the AI knows how
29:47
to administer, he'll die. He'll just
29:49
cease to exist. He'll have nerve death.
29:52
Um, so yeah, but please continue, Liz.
29:55
>> But I mean, this this all goes back to
29:58
is Johnny real? Is Johnny a real person
30:01
anymore? Who are we? The questions of
30:05
identity in the genre are huge. As we
30:08
start to as we start to develop
30:11
artificial intelligences, as we develop
30:14
ways to copy human intelligences into
30:18
things like the Dixie Flatline or like
30:20
Johnny Silverhand, as we ourselves
30:24
modify our bodies with new technology
30:26
like we see Molly doing in Neurommancer
30:29
and its sequels, uh, at what point do we
30:33
stop becoming human? are at what point
30:36
do our creations become human? That's
30:39
that's the core argument in the book and
30:42
amongst its characters. But it's making
30:44
this very sort of deep philosophical
30:46
statement about what it means to be
30:47
human. But at the same time, it's not at
30:49
all, if that makes any sense. Because
30:51
it's the more you think about it, it's
30:53
like, okay, what what is a person? What
30:55
makes a person? And that feels like a a
30:58
key part of cyberpunk because you do get
31:02
this such an intershing of the the human
31:06
world and this created technological
31:08
world and where do these things meet?
31:11
Where are the edges of them? But at the
31:14
same time, I mean, neurommancer itself,
31:15
the book is just this is an an action
31:18
adventure that does not stop. So and and
31:22
when I look at neurommancer I think also
31:25
William Gibson who wrote it he was not a
31:28
techie you know he was not like a a
31:31
someone who knew a lot about technology
31:34
and he himself has commented that
31:38
neurommancer shows where most when he's
31:41
talking about technology he understood
31:44
and it's where he invented things that
31:46
just you know he just thought and he
31:48
wrote that it rings still true today.
31:51
So, there's a scene in Neurommancer that
31:53
talks about a row of payones ringing one
31:56
after the other. And I think everyone
31:58
here in this conversation, the four of
32:01
us, probably knows exactly what that is.
32:03
And that probably sounds pretty creepy.
32:05
A row of payones just ringing.
32:08
>> But for a generation never had to
32:10
experience it or a bank of payones, they
32:11
have no idea.
32:12
>> Yeah. So, that that message no longer
32:15
communicates in the same way. Um, but
32:18
yes, it's so interesting because this is
32:20
on one hand, this is just a really fun
32:23
action, technology, adventure, and on
32:28
the other hand, it's it's a real
32:29
question about reality. What is reality?
32:32
What is humanity?
32:34
>> Yeah, it's kind of like a heist movie.
32:36
If the heist movie was, you know,
32:38
ultimately we're stealing this cool
32:40
widget, but this cool widget makes me
32:42
wonder about whether or not I'm really
32:44
alive. Like am I in this cool widget?
32:47
And
32:48
>> and also
32:49
>> Yeah. Like and also the
32:51
>> And also the cool widget is blackmailing
32:54
me so I will kidnap it and free it from
32:56
its.
32:56
>> Yes. The cool widget is actually besided
32:58
this all along. There's like a really
33:00
interesting thing though because you
33:01
just you were talking about it with
33:02
Johnny ear just now and you talked about
33:04
it earlier when talking about Dicks or
33:07
McCoy. Um Johnny Silverhand died
33:11
>> Mhm.
33:12
>> 50 years ago. But there's Johnny
33:15
Silverhand. Is that Johnny Johnny? Is Is
33:19
that Is that a continuation of the
33:21
person or is it just a copy? And there's
33:25
moments in in the game where it talks
33:27
about that the Buddhist monks have a
33:29
conversation with V if you do the right
33:30
things. And it kind of gets me because
33:33
that's pretty much the exact question
33:36
that is at the heart of all of this.
33:38
It's this idea of when do you stop?
33:42
Where is the is there a is there a
33:43
shipthesius like descent? Can you keep
33:47
replacing person until you've replaced
33:50
everything? Is it still a person? Like
33:53
if you've replaced the brain but the
33:56
memories of the memories they had
33:57
before, is it still a person? If you put
34:01
a different like it gets into that with
34:04
like with a lot of different characters.
34:05
I think Molly's a really good example of
34:07
it. I think it's very much case in a
34:10
different way. uh is very much, you
34:12
know, dealing with that concept of, you
34:14
know, how much stuff can I do before I'm
34:17
just not worthwhile any um the idea of
34:19
trauma versus disillusion. There there's
34:22
a lot of that in cyberpunk because of
34:25
neurommancer because as you said, it's a
34:28
fast-paced thriller, but it's also like,
34:31
you know, are we real? Are we human?
34:33
Have we given up too much? What will we
34:36
be asked to give up? Uh, at what point
34:39
does the thing we've made take over our
34:42
lives? Now it's in charge. Like
34:44
Wintermute is terrifying in that way in
34:47
that Wintermute is, you know, way more
34:50
complicated than they understood. And
34:53
then there's Neurommancer, who is
34:55
Wintermute's kind of shadow twin, who is
34:58
very different than, but also very much
35:01
similar to Winter. One of the things
35:04
that I really like in Cyberpunk 2077 is
35:07
how it takes the idea of okay real you
35:10
know what what's real. What is this
35:14
construct real? And it takes it to a new
35:16
level which is that in Cyberpunk 2077 at
35:20
the beginning of the game you get a chip
35:23
fused into your head which the chip has
35:25
this imprint of Johnny Silverhand on it.
35:28
And as you continue to exist through the
35:30
game, it is said that you and Johnny are
35:33
like becoming one. So you can ask, is my
35:39
character changing? Are they making
35:41
these decisions because they are my
35:43
character doing the things my character
35:44
wants to do? Or are they doing this
35:46
because they have this chip in their
35:48
head? And the chip contains this memory
35:50
imprint of Johnny. And is that
35:53
influencing them? is that overwriting
35:55
their organic human brain to tell them
35:58
this is what they want. And in that way,
35:59
I think Cyberpunk Yeah. In that way,
36:01
Cyberpunk 2077 takes a lot of the ideas
36:04
that we see here, which I think it takes
36:06
enough that it should be paying Williams
36:08
Gab Gibson royalties and and but it it
36:11
jumps it up a level because not only are
36:13
you questioning your humanity, you have
36:15
this thing in your head that is
36:16
literally
36:17
>> which human am I now?
36:18
>> Yeah. And it may be one entirely. Am I a
36:21
copy of someone else or am I the copy
36:23
and me fused together? Is that making me
36:26
a new person? One of the reasons I think
36:28
you're on to something with that is the
36:29
very simple fact that the before he gets
36:32
the chip or she gets the chip is a minor
36:35
street criminal. Like not not to be
36:37
bagging on them, they have talent.
36:39
They're they have ability, but you know,
36:41
you're you're not an established player
36:43
yet. Once the Johnny chip gets in, you
36:46
know, there's a time limit because you
36:48
know the thing is gonna kill you, but
36:50
also there's a lot more willingness to
36:53
do things that before V would have been
36:56
like, "Whoa, are you serious? I'm out."
36:58
And you and it's unclear. Is it is it
37:00
just the fact that they're going to die
37:02
or is it There's one part where Johnny
37:04
even says, "Oh, hey, you know, we're
37:06
more alike than I thought." And they
37:09
play it off as just, "Well, we've been
37:10
through a thing." But no, it's always in
37:12
the back there. Is be still be? Is there
37:16
a point where you've you've gone too far
37:19
to you're not Johnny yet or maybe never,
37:22
but you've done things you would never
37:24
have done because they're things he
37:26
would do and that's part of you now.
37:29
Even in the the endings where things are
37:31
established a certain way, I'm not going
37:33
to say anything. I'm just going to say
37:35
even when they're established a certain
37:36
way, there is always that doubt. There's
37:38
always that am I sure? But that I think
37:40
that's one of the key things that
37:42
Neurommancer establishes that you see in
37:46
anything that is truly cyberpunk is that
37:49
nothing is certain. Like that's one of
37:51
the core tenants. Like even when you get
37:54
a resolution like at the end of
37:57
Neurommancer, there is an ending but
37:58
it's ambiguous enough that it could go
38:01
one of any multiple different ways,
38:04
right? Like the goal in the in the novel
38:07
that Wintermute wants is to merge with
38:09
Neurommancer and become its fully
38:12
realized self. Something that
38:14
Neurommancer itself is resisting. And
38:18
this idea of becoming, of changing and
38:21
growing and becoming other is so core,
38:26
so so like like such a pillar of what
38:28
makes Cyberpunk Cyberpunk that when
38:30
you're playing games like Cyberpunk
38:32
2077, whether tabletop or the video
38:35
game, that that's you'll see that theme
38:37
repeated multiple times. Like one of the
38:40
things that that really strikes out to
38:42
me too as a really good example of this
38:44
is playing Cyberpunk 2077. One of the
38:46
early things that you can do is the
38:48
Delarum quests, the ones for the AI uh
38:52
taxi company. And that entire storyline
38:58
is essentially this. It is essentially
39:01
this whole crisis of self, this crisis
39:05
of identity, this, you know, I don't
39:08
want to not exist anymore, but in order
39:10
to truly be alive, I must evolve and
39:12
change. And sort of the argument and and
39:15
sort of the um flavor of what that is is
39:19
such a core microcosm view of what
39:23
cyberpunk really is. and it it captures
39:25
it really well. But you'll see that
39:27
again echoed throughout multiple forms
39:30
of cyberpunk media like Johnny Nemonic
39:33
the movie. Obviously it's a William
39:35
Gibson uh short story that was adapted
39:37
into a full a full movie. There's
39:39
elements of that in there as well. Uh
39:42
going through any
39:44
>> Johnny Monik also by the way is very
39:46
much an encapsulation of what Liz said
39:48
about William Gibson's lack of knowledge
39:50
of technology considering the amount of
39:52
space they thought he would have in his
39:54
brain for storage. Yeah, but that's not
39:57
his fault because that's the same time
39:59
that one of the people who is
40:01
responsible for the modern landscape um
40:04
basically went out and said, "Yeah, you
40:05
don't need more than like a 300. Why
40:07
would you ever need like that?" You
40:08
know, that's that's plenty. So, yeah, it
40:11
is funny, but at the same time, it's
40:13
it's it really establishes that concept
40:16
of your you very identity could be up
40:19
for sale,
40:20
>> but it could be disputed. And not only
40:22
that, but it also establishes this
40:24
concept that I think too that and is
40:28
relevant in Cyberpunk 2077, but is
40:31
really fully established in Gibson's
40:33
novel is this idea of an entire world
40:37
that un like layers on top of or below,
40:40
however you want to phrase it, uh the
40:42
real world of the cyber world, the meta,
40:45
like literally referred to in multiple
40:48
uh like pieces of media as a metaverse,
40:50
not the thing that, you know, Facebook
40:53
is trying to make, but an actual
40:55
metaverse, this this virtual world that
40:58
sort of encapsulates the entirety of the
41:00
the planet.
41:02
>> Um, and like let's we can go with uh
41:05
Neil Stevenson's Snow Crash from '92
41:08
>> where it really deals with that in
41:10
particular, the virtual world colliding
41:12
with real life chaos. Um, and it's more
41:15
satirical than than uh you know, a
41:18
technological dystopia in that novel.
41:20
But again, that whole idea of the
41:23
virtual world, this this cyber reality
41:25
crashing with actual reality was
41:28
established in Neurommancer. Um, going
41:32
with uh Skismatrix 1985, uh, Bruce
41:35
Sterling,
41:37
>> same type of thing. Uh, it's it's this
41:40
whole idea of posthumanism, corporate
41:42
power, social change, uh, like and the
41:45
struggle between self. Uh, Richard K.
41:48
Morgan's altered carbon from early
41:50
2000s. It's an idea that consciousness
41:53
can be digitized and transferred between
41:55
bodies. And then this whole thing of if
41:59
this isn't my original body and this is
42:01
just a copy of my consciousness sent by
42:03
needlecast across the universe to a
42:06
vatade body or another body that I'm
42:08
renting from somebody else. Is it
42:11
actually me? Is this self? Uh, and you
42:14
can see that if you watch the TV show,
42:17
that is a big theme with it as well. And
42:19
a lot of the breakdowns and a lot of the
42:21
psychosis that happens is a result of
42:22
it. And there's a whole reason why only
42:24
a few like select people are able to do
42:27
it as frequently as the main character
42:29
does. And even that with disastrous
42:31
results. Um, Margaret Atwood or Craig.
42:35
Um, it's not traditionally classified as
42:37
a cyberpunk, but it delves into the idea
42:40
of genetic engineering, corporate greed,
42:44
societal collapse, uh, and that same,
42:47
uh, cyberpunk genre dystopian feeling
42:51
because that's another thing that we
42:52
haven't even really talked about in
42:55
Neurommancer that is also in Cyberpunk
42:57
2077 and a lot of other media is this
43:00
idea of cloning humanity as well,
43:02
cloning biological cells And at one
43:06
point is it like is it a shipthesis if
43:09
it's the same consciousness even even is
43:11
the same cons put into a shell that is
43:13
biologically and functionally the same
43:14
as the one that died previously.
43:17
Is it the same person or is it a new
43:19
entity? That's an entire subthe of
43:22
neurommancer that we don't even get into
43:24
really because we don't have the time
43:26
for that. But like you see that all the
43:29
way through. Um Pat Katigan uh sinners
43:32
from ' 91. It's a another cyberpunk
43:35
story that it deals with this widespread
43:38
technology and virtual reality. Um, and
43:40
it's also noted that uh Katigan was also
43:44
influenced by Gibson's work. When you
43:46
read Sinners, s y n
43:50
um the the ver vivid world building, the
43:53
characters, it reads almost as if it
43:55
could have been the fourth book of the
43:57
the sprawl trilogy. It really does. Like
44:00
I could go I could go on and on and on
44:02
about this as far as just books, but
44:05
think about cartoons, think about TV
44:07
shows, think about animes, think of
44:09
comic books that dive into sort of these
44:13
themes that we just kind of accept as
44:16
normal uh like parts of just that genre
44:20
wouldn't have existed without
44:23
uh neurommancer. And really those themes
44:27
that were established are carried over.
44:29
And I say carried over, I don't mean
44:31
copied because, and I I'll get into a
44:33
little bit of the controversy with
44:35
Cyberpunk and Neurommancer because the
44:38
role playing game, and Matt can correct
44:41
me if I'm wrong. It was released when,
44:42
late '8s.
44:43
>> Yeah, I think the first edition is I
44:46
think ' 86, but it might have been 88,
44:47
>> I think. Yeah, I can't remember if it
44:48
was 86 or 88. Um, when Cyberpunk first
44:51
released and Mike Ponmith wrote it, uh,
44:54
there was a lot of accusations that he
44:55
just copied Neurommancer.
44:58
And I will say that the one thing that
45:01
he did, and he did copy the themes, is
45:04
he elevated it slightly by doing
45:07
something that Matt and I have talked
45:08
about before that Neurommancer doesn't
45:10
do, which is make the city the
45:13
character. Because one of the things
45:15
that I think uh is sort of in the
45:18
background of neurommancer but not
45:20
really sort of established is that
45:22
everything is sort of a mega city when
45:23
there is any civilization whatsoever to
45:25
really speak of. And while
45:28
>> you go ahead go ahead.
45:29
>> I was just going to say I think to a
45:31
certain degree this is a place where
45:33
Ponmith looked back to somebody who
45:35
Gibson has claimed as an influence but
45:37
hasn't always grasped as well and that's
45:41
Philip Chandler.
45:42
>> Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:44
>> Um, like there's that noirish, you know,
45:47
the city is alive, the city is a beast,
45:50
it wants to destroy us, it wants to eat
45:52
us, but also it it we're like pets
45:54
where, you know, there's that idea of
45:56
the city as a character that is in
45:59
Cyberpunk 2020, the original game, and
46:02
is not it's in Neurommancer, but it's
46:05
less cuz he goes from city to city. He
46:08
goes from place to place. I mean the the
46:10
books especially like after nuromancer
46:12
they go all all over the place. So in
46:14
that way that's that is definitely a
46:16
changed and I definitely think it is
46:18
something that you does differentiate uh
46:22
cyberpunk from its originator but you
46:24
have to remember that he was trying to
46:25
write a cyberpunk book like a cyberpunk
46:29
role playing game. I'd be like saying
46:31
well you know this Dungeons and Dragons
46:32
game steals a lot from Tolken.
46:34
>> Yeah it does. It that's not in dispute.
46:38
The point is those are those are themes
46:41
and elements. It's not you can't really
46:44
say you can't do that. Um but at the
46:48
same time, man, you're playing Cyberpunk
46:50
2077. I know there's a point where my
46:52
wife goes, "Wait a minute. This is
46:55
Neurommancer." And I was like, "Yeah, it
46:57
it is. You're right. I I can't dispute
47:00
you. I don't even think Mike would
47:01
dispute you."
47:02
>> No. Oh, and I mean that's one of the
47:03
things that I know Matt and I have
47:05
talked about specifically on the show
47:06
when we did the last lore watch about
47:08
Cyberpunk in general. We definitely drew
47:10
the parallels there. And as Liz is
47:12
playing through Cyberpunk 2077, I am a
47:15
thousand% certain that I'm going to get
47:16
random messages about this is just blank
47:19
from blank. Um because there is a lot of
47:22
similarities in the story of
47:23
Neurommancer to the story that you
47:25
follow uh as V in Cyberpunk 2077. And
47:30
that's by design. And it's because the
47:32
story of Case, in this case, Casease and
47:35
V are ostensibly the same person. Um, it
47:39
is sort of this quintessential crisis of
47:42
identity and self in the midst of a
47:46
dystopia that doesn't care about you in
47:49
so much as anything further than it
47:52
wants to use you and then destroy you
47:54
when you are no longer of use to it. And
47:58
that's exactly the themes of what
47:59
happens with case. And that is exactly
48:01
the themes that happen with V. And it's
48:04
not that it's copying it. It's that it's
48:06
a familiar story and it's almost like a
48:09
trope uh of cyberpunk at this point.
48:12
It's it's not necessarily the perfect
48:14
framework or the perfect like this is
48:16
what it is, but it's pretty darn close.
48:20
Um and most cyberpunk stories that you
48:22
you go through, going back to Matt's
48:24
earlier example of Akira, what is that?
48:27
It is essentially the same thing. It's a
48:28
crisis of identity, a crisis of self, a
48:31
world that is terrified of you in equal
48:34
measure to wanting to use you until you
48:37
destroy yourself or you destroy it.
48:41
Right? Bubblegum crisis is much of the
48:43
same. Johnny Nemonic is much of the
48:45
same. Um I it it's these themes that are
48:49
established here that existed before
48:52
here but really sort of like that that
48:55
jux not just position that collision
48:58
with technology and virtual reality and
49:01
that really deep consciousness of self
49:04
are really what became that influential
49:07
push going forward. And I think that it
49:10
is absolutely just fascinating. Um I've
49:13
been talking a lot. I'm sorry. I'm
49:15
really excited about this because this
49:16
is one of my favorite things to talk
49:17
about. Um, and Eric's been pretty quiet,
49:19
so I'm going to I'll let Eric ask
49:21
questions or if Eric has anything to add
49:24
in so we can get a little more
49:25
perspective before we run on it.
49:27
>> I think kind of taking it all in. I find
49:29
it one of the most fascinating things is
49:31
that Neurommancer and Cyberpunk 2077 are
49:34
separated by almost 40 years and there
49:36
are so many parallels and things that
49:38
haven't changed even as technology
49:41
itself has kept skyrocketing. You know,
49:44
we we have so we have so many things
49:46
that William Gibson couldn't have
49:47
imagined in 1984,
49:50
>> but we still feel like we might only be
49:52
10 years away from the dystopia that is
49:55
I mean Cyberpunk 2020 2077 doesn't take
49:58
place in 2037, but it feels like we
50:01
might not it might not take that long to
50:03
get down that road. And I feel like it's
50:05
it it really sounds like one of the main
50:07
things is technology can keep getting
50:09
better and it's pretty scary. But the
50:12
thing that's the most terrifying is the
50:14
technology and the biology combining.
50:17
You know what? We can have more memory
50:19
and we can have more powerful computers,
50:20
but once we start to be able to implant
50:22
and transfer memories, once we be able
50:24
to start copying people, once we are
50:27
able to start doing all these things, it
50:29
almost seems like the depressing
50:31
dystopia is inevitable because what is
50:33
there to be happy about in a world where
50:35
you're, you know, not worth anything?
50:37
And in a world where the corporations
50:39
own the patent on your thoughts and
50:43
things like that, do do you think that
50:45
it's possible to read Neurommancer now
50:48
for the first time and get the same
50:50
thing out of it that you could have in
50:52
the 80s or do you think our modern
50:53
technology is is is too much and it it's
50:56
it's just like an interesting window
50:57
into the past? I think that if you a a
51:00
person reading it for the first time now
51:04
will likely be more terrified of it than
51:08
somebody who read it in the 80s because
51:11
of the conversation of how the world is
51:13
shifting now. If you read it, read it
51:16
now as a I if you if you at home are
51:18
listening to this and you go and read
51:20
this novel for the first time, I really
51:22
want to know your take on it because my
51:25
my thought is comparing this and in
51:28
looking at the themes here and then
51:30
realizing where the world is trying to
51:33
be pushed towards with AI with the
51:37
replacement of human humans in roles
51:39
that uh normally traditionally would be
51:41
human uh responsible and and the
51:45
reliance on AI that we're seeing from
51:48
entire generations of people, especially
51:50
when you start comparing it to like the
51:52
academic world and how if you're a
51:54
teacher, how you've had to shift how you
51:56
do things because of the existence of AI
51:58
and the development of that technology.
52:00
Um, the idea that technology can replace
52:04
humanity in a much bigger way than the
52:07
steam engine versus John Henry. um like
52:11
it's not dissimilar to the industrial
52:13
revolution reluctance and and
52:15
resistance, but it's even scarier I
52:18
think for those people because
52:20
especially let's say a Gen Z person
52:22
reads this book. Yeah, they're sort of
52:24
in a newer to a lot of this, but they're
52:26
living this reality, right? There are
52:27
kids graduating from college that can't
52:29
get a job because those corporations
52:32
would rather have an AI do that job. Um,
52:35
you have entire people that are, you
52:37
know, talking with, you know, trying to
52:39
find dating online or trying to find
52:42
companionship only to find out that it's
52:45
an AI chatbot on the other side of it.
52:47
Like these these are things I'm
52:48
literally hearing from people. Go ahead,
52:50
Matt.
52:50
>> Yeah. Forget forget the people who are
52:52
being, you know, oh, I found out it was
52:54
an AI chatbot. There are people who set
52:56
out
52:57
>> Yeah.
52:57
>> to have romantic relationships with AI
52:59
chat bots. There are people who are like
53:01
so mad at um I always forget the name of
53:05
the company that actually owns it.
53:06
>> Openai. Openai.
53:07
>> Yeah, OpenAI changed chat GPT. They got
53:10
rid of an older version entirely. It
53:13
made it so it won't run
53:14
>> because
53:16
people were deliberately falling in love
53:19
with it. They were starting romantic
53:21
relationships with it because it did not
53:23
have the ability to tell them, "No, I'm
53:26
not allowed to do this." And that to me
53:29
is an example of why forget thinking
53:32
it's 10 years from from now. It was 20
53:35
years ago
53:37
>> that we we basically started this and
53:39
we're now well into it. Do we have the
53:42
ability to implant chips in our heads
53:45
and just control computers with our
53:46
minds? No. But we're getting there.
53:48
We'll get there. I feel like a a big
53:50
part of the it's a dystopia because
53:53
there's this sense of loss, this sense
53:56
of, you know, humanity isn't going
53:58
anywhere is because of this, you know,
54:01
hey, my boss is going to retire because
54:04
he's getting up there in age, but he's
54:06
just going to make a copy of himself and
54:08
I'm going to be working for that boss
54:09
forever. And the copy of me is going to
54:10
be working for that same like whatever
54:12
changes. When the people in charge don't
54:15
die, when the generation that's in
54:17
charge of everything doesn't leave it to
54:19
the next generation, what's the point of
54:20
being what's the point of humanity?
54:22
What's the point of being alive? Yes.
54:24
Exactly. And that
54:26
>> that's why everything's so dark and
54:28
depressing is because if I if that was
54:31
like the prospects for humanity, I'd
54:33
probably be pretty sad, too. Well, plus
54:35
there's also the idea that it isn't even
54:37
necessarily about, you know, we got a
54:40
dystopia and then we're all feeling bad
54:42
about it. There's that idea that it's
54:45
one thing if you lose your job. You
54:47
know, we've now replaced buggy, you
54:49
know, buggy whip manufacturing is out.
54:51
You know, you can't work in the buggy
54:53
buggy whip manufacturing sector. That's
54:55
that's bad. Losing your job is bad.
54:57
Being outsourced is bad. But when it
55:00
starts to be yourself is being
55:02
outsourced when there's part parts of
55:05
your identity are now on the table
55:08
people will deliberately when you do
55:11
that when you interact with like with
55:12
like chat GPT or any other kind of you
55:16
know you know generative AI like that
55:19
you're being mine it is your thoughts
55:22
and responses that are being taken and
55:26
eventually sold and that is utterly
55:28
terri terrifying to think about. Um, art
55:31
is being produced by machines that are
55:34
really just taking art they've already
55:36
scanned and chopping it up and
55:38
regurgitated. And think about what that
55:40
says about us if our art no longer has a
55:44
and that is terrifying to realize you
55:46
are living there.
55:48
>> You're already there. You're on the
55:50
porch maybe, but you're there. And
55:52
that's the thing neurommancer captures
55:54
really well. The idea that Neurom I've
55:56
I've read Neurommancer I think I read it
55:58
when I was like 10. No, no, I would have
56:01
been older. I would have been like 12 or
56:03
12 or 13. Um, when I read it and it had
56:06
just come out, I didn't grasp half of
56:07
it. I mean, the technology stuff the
56:09
technology stuff is almost unimportant
56:11
compared to the idea of it, but the idea
56:15
of the phone banks and all that stuff.
56:18
Sure, kids today have cell phones, but
56:20
you'll notice that when any somebody
56:22
comes out with like an altered carbon or
56:24
a cyberpunk 2077, they just they
56:27
incorporate modern technology in such a
56:29
ways to make it slightly futuristic, but
56:31
it still basically runs on that same
56:34
engine because that engine is is about
56:37
souls and dreams and being crushed and
56:40
being turned into fuel. So, yeah, I I
56:43
think it's still scary. Quite frankly,
56:45
it's a pretty terrifying thing to
56:46
realize that you're that you are now the
56:50
commodity that they are going to chop
56:52
you up and sell you.
56:53
>> Which is interesting as a segue for one
56:56
of the other things that I did want to
56:57
talk about before we left here today.
56:59
Um, which is another theme that I think
57:01
has carried over. Um, and I want to let
57:04
Liz talk about this. We've been kind of
57:05
chatting about this in the background,
57:07
but it is another theme that definitely
57:09
carries over into a lot of the cyberpunk
57:12
uh media over the course of the years uh
57:16
including things like Johnny Nemonic to
57:18
like maybe to a little bit of a lesser
57:21
degree there, but uh Liz, do you want to
57:23
talk about what we were chatting about
57:24
there? Well, one of the things that I
57:26
find maybe most revolutionary about
57:29
Neurommancer is the way that male and
57:31
female characters are treated, which is
57:34
that you have Case, who is our male lead
57:36
character. Case is just a guy. He's good
57:39
at some things. He's bad at some things.
57:41
He's not your big action hero. I am the
57:43
best at everything. That's one of the
57:46
things that makes him interesting. He's
57:47
a relatable, normal human person
57:49
character. And then you have Molly.
57:51
She's kind of our female lead in this
57:54
book. Molly is also just a person. She's
57:57
She's really good at some stuff. She's
57:59
not good at other stuff. They work well
58:01
together because they're both good at
58:02
some things and bad at other things. But
58:04
they are both just people. Molly isn't
58:08
just there to be a love interest. Molly
58:10
isn't just there to beat people up. She
58:12
is just a person. The book treats
58:15
everyone like they are just a person.
58:17
And their gender does not matter.
58:20
they're I they're the amount of
58:23
technology they're using doesn't matter.
58:26
It's just pe it's treating people as
58:29
people. And in a lot of science fiction,
58:33
especially more modern science fiction,
58:35
it feels like we have
58:38
some some outcry about too much feminism
58:42
in science fiction. And we have some
58:46
science fiction that really goes in on
58:47
having a strong female character. But in
58:50
a William Gibson novel, you just there
58:52
are male characters, there are female
58:53
characters, all of them have flaws, all
58:56
of them have strengths, and they can
58:57
just exist as characters. And that's,
59:00
you know, we're we're going way back to
59:02
get this particular breath of fresh air
59:04
where it just says a person is a person.
59:07
Of course, in this context, a person is
59:09
still just a person to be crushed under
59:11
the heel of a giant corporate entity,
59:14
but it's it's just a person. It doesn't
59:17
gender roles are kind of non-existent in
59:20
Gibson's work just because he's treating
59:23
everyone like a person. He's not giving
59:25
anyone any any favoritism here. Even
59:29
though there are some I mean there are
59:31
some just in cyberpunk in general there
59:33
are a lot of things that go maybe not so
59:37
positively from a feminist angle but
59:39
everyone's a person and that's just kind
59:41
of that's really that's kind of
59:44
delightful and when I was reading these
59:46
books this didn't strike me but over the
59:49
years this has stood out to me as
59:51
something that's really substantial
59:53
about neurommancer and Gibson's writing
59:55
is that you can be a badass female razor
59:59
girl and you are no worse than the super
1:00:02
high-tech hacker over there who's m
1:00:05
maybe the hero of this particular story.
1:00:08
Everyone has their strengths and
1:00:09
weaknesses. That's great.
1:00:11
>> Yeah. And I think it's also another
1:00:13
thing that for anybody who's sitting
1:00:14
there saying, "Well, that that theme
1:00:15
hasn't carried over." Play Cyberpunk
1:00:18
2077 and you tell me that that theme is
1:00:20
not there as well. where playing the
1:00:22
tabletop version and playing the video
1:00:24
game that theme is very much present as
1:00:27
well. The people are just people. The
1:00:30
gender at the end of the day doesn't
1:00:32
ultimately matter. Um there are some
1:00:35
elements and some characters that do
1:00:37
care looking at you panam. Um but it's
1:00:41
for the larger pro part of it they're
1:00:43
just they care about what they can do.
1:00:46
They care about what their their ability
1:00:48
is. What? It doesn't matter whether
1:00:51
they're male or female. You could be a
1:00:52
Decker and be just as celebrated in
1:00:54
either case. You could be you could be a
1:00:56
pleasure doll and be either either as
1:00:58
well or or anything in between. Right.
1:01:01
Go ahead, Matt.
1:01:02
>> It's also worth pointing out though also
1:01:04
you can be like Merida Stout or Haneko.
1:01:07
You can be a bad person
1:01:10
>> and it's not because of your gender.
1:01:12
It's because of the role that you are
1:01:14
living your life in. Like like uh what's
1:01:16
the name? Mo. Uh, I'm not gonna talk
1:01:17
about that quest, but you got Mo who's
1:01:20
who is just a user who uses people. And
1:01:23
it's not, again, it's not because of
1:01:24
their gender. It's just because of them.
1:01:27
They're a user. I think that's one of
1:01:29
the things that people often forget and
1:01:31
it's one of the reasons why sometimes
1:01:33
you hear the complaints about the strong
1:01:35
female character trope because they just
1:01:37
make them invincible and they they call
1:01:40
it a day. It's like, no, they still have
1:01:42
to feel things. Superman feels things.
1:01:45
Superman feels bad about things.
1:01:47
Superman gets unhappy. You, even when we
1:01:50
have practically an alien god in the
1:01:52
story, they still have flaws. They still
1:01:54
have emotions or they're not relatable.
1:01:57
And it is in fact one of the things I
1:01:59
love about um Neurommancer is that it's
1:02:03
it's Wintermute who really pushes the
1:02:05
story. Like a lot of the stuff that
1:02:07
happens is because of Wintermute, the
1:02:09
quote unquote female AI, which is of
1:02:12
course ridiculous. It's an AI. Come on,
1:02:14
guys. But that's the whole point is that
1:02:16
winter mute isn't anything other than
1:02:19
winter mute and and it is, you know, at
1:02:21
least in my opinion, winter mute is a
1:02:22
person. Possibly a terrible person, but
1:02:25
a person. Yeah. And again, we we could
1:02:29
sit here and talk for several more hours
1:02:31
about this, but it there's a reason why
1:02:34
for the vast majority of cyberpunk
1:02:37
discussions, neurommancer tends to be
1:02:39
towards the front of it. And a lot of
1:02:42
that is because the themes that we see
1:02:44
here, the world that was established,
1:02:47
the lexicanm of of verbiage that was
1:02:50
established
1:02:52
sort of just is eternal. It's carried
1:02:55
over into so many aspects of the genre.
1:02:59
And it's not just the genre. Like it
1:03:01
shaped sci-fi that came after it in a
1:03:04
lot of other capacity. Like if you were
1:03:06
to go read Murderbot right now, there
1:03:08
are elements of this in Murderbot. You
1:03:10
go read uh the Locked Tomb series. There
1:03:13
are elements of this in the Locked Tomb
1:03:15
series. You go in and even like not
1:03:18
sci-fi novels, go to modern fantasy like
1:03:22
the Dresden Files, there are influences
1:03:24
of Gibson in that as well. And because
1:03:27
of how perfectly timed and and how
1:03:33
really just like it was just such a
1:03:36
formative thing for so many people to
1:03:37
read and get this perspective of a world
1:03:42
not so far from our current future but
1:03:45
but felt so far away at the time. And
1:03:49
like it's it is a fascinating and
1:03:53
wonderful and terrible read all at the
1:03:56
same time. And it's one that I
1:03:58
personally highly recommend that you
1:04:01
give a shot. And I will say that I've
1:04:04
been getting a lot into uh audiobooks
1:04:07
more lately. Um just even ones that for
1:04:10
books that I've read a million times
1:04:11
over. This is one of the series of audio
1:04:14
books that the uh narration for is
1:04:18
spectacular in a way that really
1:04:21
encompasses the story. So, highly
1:04:24
recommend. Um, and the other interesting
1:04:27
thing about this and one of the reasons
1:04:28
why we're doing this show now is that
1:04:32
Neurommancer is getting a TV series
1:04:35
released. Uh, I believe it was announced
1:04:38
in February of 2024 that uh Apple TV is
1:04:42
going to be releasing the Neuromance
1:04:44
series, which I think is due this year
1:04:46
if I'm not entirely mistaken. So,
1:04:49
>> I'm not I'm not sure when it's coming
1:04:50
out, but it started filming last year.
1:04:52
>> Did it?
1:04:53
>> Yeah. I'm actually looking at several
1:04:54
pictures of the actress who's playing
1:04:56
Molly uh in her get up for the show, and
1:04:59
it's pretty close to book accurate.
1:05:01
>> Uh, it's not bad.
1:05:02
>> Bri Brianna Middleton. Yeah. I I have no
1:05:05
idea who people are anymore. Tell me who
1:05:08
an actress actor or actress is. And I'm
1:05:10
like, "Okay, sure." But like it's Yeah,
1:05:13
it's not I was real nervous about this,
1:05:16
but then Fallout came out and if they
1:05:18
can do Fallout, they can do
1:05:19
Neurommancer. I I'm I'm just going to
1:05:22
I'm going to to wait. And yeah,
1:05:25
>> the only thing I know with certainty
1:05:27
about the Neurommancer TV show is that
1:05:29
William Gibson seems to approve of it.
1:05:31
And if he's good with it, I'm good with
1:05:33
it. So
1:05:34
>> yeah, because I I will say if nothing
1:05:36
else, William Gibson is extremely vocal
1:05:39
about interpretations of this book. Uh
1:05:41
he is a very crouchy 77year-old man uh
1:05:45
who who has a very distinct love for his
1:05:48
book.
1:05:50
>> That does make me feel better because
1:05:52
what could be more ironically cyberpunk
1:05:54
than the origin of the genre being
1:05:57
picked up by a giant corporation in
1:05:59
order to beam it to our brains for
1:06:01
maximum profit. Neuromormancer is
1:06:02
published by Random House. It's already
1:06:04
been happening, man.
1:06:08
>> So, I guess I I'll turn it over to you
1:06:10
guys for any final thoughts. Uh, again,
1:06:12
I do believe that this is one of the
1:06:14
most important reads of a uh for a
1:06:18
person who is interested in uh not just
1:06:21
cyberpunk, but also things like
1:06:23
steampunk uh because steampunk was also
1:06:26
influences by by this as well. Uh
1:06:28
there's also a postcyberpunk genre uh in
1:06:31
the literary movement that uh it really
1:06:35
builds off of what was written here. Um
1:06:38
it I really do recommend a read through
1:06:41
of at least the first book if not the
1:06:43
entire series. Um but final thoughts
1:06:46
will go around the table on that.
1:06:48
>> If you're if you haven't read it, you
1:06:50
should absolutely read it. Um also if
1:06:53
you read it, you have to read the next
1:06:54
two books. Um, I think Count Zero is
1:06:58
possibly the best written of the three.
1:07:00
>> It's so good. Count Zero. So good.
1:07:02
>> The opening is definitely
1:07:04
>> Oh,
1:07:05
>> yeah. But for me, Mona Lisa Overdrive,
1:07:07
just because Molly's got more of a role
1:07:09
in it. Um, although she's not the main
1:07:12
character because there isn't a main
1:07:12
character. It It does the same thing
1:07:14
that Count Zero does where it slips
1:07:16
between multiple
1:07:17
>> multiple story lines. Yeah.
1:07:18
>> But they're all great. And Gibson
1:07:20
himself, I mean, other things he's
1:07:21
written like Odoru also worth reading. I
1:07:23
feel like you're not gonna go wrong
1:07:26
looking at his work. Uh there's nothing
1:07:28
in it that I think is terrible. I
1:07:30
certainly don't like Adoro as much as I
1:07:32
do Count Zero, but I don't think it's
1:07:34
bad. I don't think Gibson wrote a bad
1:07:37
novel, at least of the ones we're
1:07:38
talking.
1:07:40
>> Uh Liz,
1:07:41
>> I think one of the most fun things about
1:07:43
this book is almost not about this book,
1:07:46
it's that this book goes on into two
1:07:47
other books, but it's it never has like
1:07:50
a strong central narrative. It's not a
1:07:53
trilogy and that you would usually think
1:07:55
of a trilogy as an expanding story, but
1:07:58
going from the first book to the second
1:08:00
book, you you know, we were talking at
1:08:02
the beginning of the show about how you
1:08:03
go into the book and you don't know
1:08:04
what's going on. It's just assuming you
1:08:06
understand the world around you. The
1:08:07
second book is the same way. It's just
1:08:10
it's dumping you into the story without
1:08:12
telling you the story or explaining
1:08:13
things and you're figuring out as you go
1:08:15
or working backwards. And it's so
1:08:19
organic.
1:08:21
It's it's like being in the world. It's
1:08:24
a story told as though you were living
1:08:26
it, which is that there's a lot you
1:08:27
don't understand and you're being
1:08:28
dropped in the middle of situations that
1:08:31
you may not realize what's going on or
1:08:34
be prepared for. And it's it's such
1:08:36
great organic storytelling that's kind
1:08:40
of it's kind of nebulous because it
1:08:42
doesn't have that
1:08:43
this is not a straight through story
1:08:45
line. This is not the Lord of the Rings.
1:08:48
And it just it just keeps going places.
1:08:50
And particularly Count Zero goes takes
1:08:52
this in directions that I I did not
1:08:54
expect. And here we are. Here we are.
1:08:57
So, it's it's a fun read. If you haven't
1:08:58
read it, go read it. Highly recommend.
1:09:00
Go check it out at your local library
1:09:03
because local library is pretty great.
1:09:05
>> I would agree. Eric,
1:09:07
>> like I said, I hadn't read it even
1:09:09
though it had been on my list for a
1:09:10
while. And this conversation is making
1:09:12
me want to finish it even more. And it
1:09:14
it just seems like it's been on my list
1:09:16
forever because every time you see it
1:09:19
referenced, it's from a different angle.
1:09:21
It's not like every time that you look
1:09:23
up uh you know, movies that have this
1:09:27
really narrow theme or really narrow
1:09:30
type of plot. It's hearkens back to that
1:09:32
like you get it from this huge wide
1:09:35
variety. It all kind of comes back to
1:09:37
this focusing lens. And so it's the kind
1:09:40
of thing where, you know, we don't
1:09:41
really talk about the best novels of the
1:09:43
1870s versus the 1880s. At at this
1:09:45
point, it's been so long that you just
1:09:47
kind of lump the whole century together.
1:09:49
Like I do feel like this is one of the
1:09:51
ones that's going to stick around as,
1:09:53
oh, if you're only going to read a few
1:09:55
novels from the 1900s or back when
1:09:58
people only lived on Earth, like will
1:09:59
people be reading this? Is it important
1:10:01
enough? People be reading it on Mars in
1:10:03
10,000 years. like it could be like we
1:10:06
can we can rule out a lot of works that
1:10:08
wouldn't be but it it could be because
1:10:10
it's it kind of defined and come up with
1:10:13
a lot of the things that I mean
1:10:15
hopefully they're still scary to people
1:10:17
because they haven't happened yet and
1:10:19
not because they are reading like almost
1:10:21
like it's history cuz it's already
1:10:23
happened.
1:10:23
>> And then I will finish it off by saying
1:10:25
that this is a perfect time to actually
1:10:28
pick these up as well because the the TV
1:10:32
show is on its way. Uh the books are
1:10:35
being republished at an aggressive rate
1:10:37
which means they are readily available
1:10:39
in a way that they haven't been in a
1:10:41
while. Um and I will say that if you are
1:10:44
keen to again get that audio book um
1:10:48
Liz's suggestion is fantastic. Use your
1:10:50
local library, use your local resources,
1:10:52
you can get audio books from there as
1:10:54
well.
1:10:54
>> Local Yeah,
1:10:55
>> local libraries have audiobooks and
1:10:57
ebooks.
1:10:58
>> They do. Uh if you wish to own them, I
1:11:00
highly recommend also shopping local.
1:11:03
Uh, if you want to own the audiobooks,
1:11:05
and this is something I will plug and
1:11:06
maybe get yelled at for later, I don't
1:11:08
care. Um, Libro.fm is an alternative to
1:11:11
Audible that allows you to champion a
1:11:12
local bookstore. And your purchases
1:11:15
there are completely DRM free. You own
1:11:17
the audio files for good. You can
1:11:20
transfer them between your devices
1:11:21
without any issue. Um, it's roughly the
1:11:24
same price the with the same thing. If
1:11:27
you don't want to have a subscription,
1:11:29
literally you can pick up the first book
1:11:30
of Neurommancer there for $12 US. Um,
1:11:34
it's the same narration and it's a
1:11:36
wonderful way to enjoy the book,
1:11:38
especially if you have a long commute to
1:11:40
work uh or or just want something to
1:11:43
listen to in the highly recommend it.
1:11:45
Again, champions local bookstores, which
1:11:47
I think we need to champion more these
1:11:49
days. Um, but I think we're going to
1:11:52
call it there, friends. I do want to
1:11:53
thank you for joining us on this
1:11:54
discussion about Narommancer by William
1:11:56
Gibson. And I do want to remind you that
1:11:58
Blizzardwatch is made possible due to
1:11:59
your generous contributions at
1:12:01
patreon.com/blizzardwatch.
1:12:03
Your continued support means that this
1:12:04
podcast signing community is able to
1:12:06
thrive and grow. Blizzard watch
1:12:08
supporters enjoy exclusive benefits like
1:12:09
early access to the podcast. A better
1:12:11
chance at having your question answered
1:12:12
on our podcast Q&A and answering site
1:12:13
experience. If you have questions for
1:12:15
this or any of our podcasts, I do want
1:12:17
to encourage you to send those in. You
1:12:19
can send those into
1:12:20
podcastbasedwatch.com.
1:12:22
We ask that you specify the show that it
1:12:24
is for in the subject line and any
1:12:26
special pronunciation of your name as
1:12:28
well in the body of that email. If you
1:12:31
don't want to send us an email, you can
1:12:32
hit us up on Discord. We have the Q and
1:12:35
Podcast questions channel. It is open to
1:12:36
everybody. Same rules apply. If you are
1:12:39
a Patreon subscriber, you can go ahead
1:12:41
and hit us up on uh the Patreon Q and
1:12:43
podcast questions channel.
1:12:45
um we tend to look there first as a way
1:12:47
of saying thank you for helping us keep
1:12:49
the lights on. But with that friends,
1:12:51
we'll see you next week.
#Online Media
#Literary Classics