Up next in 10
Comic book artist Sam Kieth passed away earlier this month as a result of Lewy Body dementia, so our Lore Watch Podcast team wanted to take an episode to talk about his impact on the genre and pop culture as a whole. Both Sam Kieth's art style and plotlines shaped comics as we moved into a more grimdark take on the old heroes. Sam's comic The Maxx put him on the map, and his collaboration with now-notorious Neil Gaiman on The Sandman clinched his place in the pantheon of early 90s comics creators. And that was just the start of his career, which included a turn writing Batman, and later included a crossover with The Maxx as one of his final projects.
Because Sam Kieth's comics deal with some heavy topics, this episode comes with a content warning for topics ranging from murder and gore to dissociative identity disorder and sexual assault. While we don't linger on these topics in-depth, they are present as a part of the discussion.
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Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:11
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch round
0:14
table free form discussion about lore in
0:15
your favorite media. I'm your host Joe
0:18
Pres, one of several lore focused folks
0:20
from Blizzard Watch and I've got two
0:22
marvelous co-hosts with me traveling
0:24
through the world of the outback.
0:26
First up, you know him, you love him. He
0:28
is your resident barbarian and possibly
0:31
is the personification of the Max in
0:33
real life. Matt Rossy, how you doing
0:35
today, Matt?
0:36
>> I was not dreamed up by a girl or boy or
0:39
anybody, but but yeah, I do like it was
0:42
a good comic.
0:42
>> It was
0:44
also Yeah, I am still somewhat depressed
0:47
about Sam Keith. So,
0:49
>> well, we are going to be talking about
0:50
Sam Keith today if you didn't get get it
0:52
from that intro. Uh, and also joining us
0:54
today as always is another of our
0:57
stalwart companion in the pantheon of
0:59
the world of sleep and dreams, Eric OD.
1:02
How you doing, Eric?
1:03
>> Dude, good Joe. Uh, I am here and I am
1:06
ready to learn. I don't know too much
1:08
about uh comics. Uh, but I was able to
1:10
catch up a little bit. So hopefully I
1:12
can uh contribute and or uh help our
1:15
listeners who haven't read any Sam Keith
1:18
um understand and appreciate him.
1:19
>> Well, thank you very much. So, in case
1:22
you are wondering why we're talking
1:23
about Sam Keith, Sam Keith is a a very
1:26
influential comic artist and story uh
1:30
maker that has been around or was around
1:33
for a very long time. Uh born in 1963,
1:37
he recently just passed on March 15th of
1:41
2026.
1:43
Uh he is very influential in a lot of
1:47
storytelling and a lot of art styles
1:49
that defined the comics of the '9s and
1:53
into the early 2000s. The stories that
1:57
he helped create, the characters that he
1:58
helped create, and the ones that he
2:00
worked on really fleshed out what we
2:03
view as modernday comics and a lot of
2:06
even modern-day TV. Um Sam Keith wasn't
2:10
a very accomplished uh artist, anchor,
2:14
writer. Uh he just a a huge loss for the
2:19
comic community. And I think we we
2:23
wanted to talk a little bit about maybe
2:25
possibly his two arguably most
2:27
influential works as well as some of his
2:29
other works that he he did throughout
2:31
the years and highlight the contribution
2:33
that he made to storytelling. And we
2:36
started with the Max because I think the
2:38
Max is probably the most well-known uh
2:40
or at least anybody in the comic
2:42
industry or familiar with it uh would
2:46
know that in 1993 when Image Comics was
2:49
relatively new to the scene. Um the
2:53
word of the com or the world of comics
2:56
was leaning towards a decidedly darker,
3:00
more adult version of what comic
3:03
storytelling could be. Uh, Image Comics
3:06
had Spawn, uh, as one of its flagships,
3:10
uh, as well as things like The Walking
3:12
Dead, Kickass, Invincible, uh, Jupiter,
3:15
uh, Legacy, Witchblade, uh, The Max,
3:17
Obviously, Savage Dragon, Descender
3:19
Saga, East of West, Monstrous, Radius
3:22
Black, uh, Stray Dogs, and so many
3:25
others. Wildcats and and and a bunch of
3:27
others that were just very dark, very
3:32
edgy versions of what we had already ex
3:35
like noticed, but not in a I don't want
3:37
to say a cringe way. They were grittier
3:41
and more in the muck than a bunch of
3:44
other comics because up to this point in
3:46
the 60s, 70s, and 80s, comics were
3:51
mostly more wholesome than anything
3:54
else. Even when uh Marvel started going
3:56
down the darker routes of giving their
3:58
characters problems like Tony Stark
4:00
becoming an alcoholic, that was light
4:03
compared to other things. They didn't
4:04
deal with things like mental trauma,
4:06
death. Um not really. Uh the
4:10
>> I don't really think Do you do we want
4:12
to try and take the time to explain the
4:13
Comics Code Authority?
4:15
>> I mean, I think it's worthwhile here if
4:16
you want to give it a stab. I think it's
4:18
probably worth worth putting in here.
4:19
Um, I don't know if people know this
4:21
about um, motion pictures, but motion
4:24
pictures have had a a rating system for
4:26
a very long time. Few people realize
4:28
that this was entirely self-imposed. And
4:30
the reason that the uh Motion Pictures
4:32
Association of America came up with
4:34
their rating system was to prevent the
4:37
government from doing something because
4:39
up until the introduction of the MPAA
4:43
system, which you know the PGR and so
4:46
forth, um there were movies just pretty
4:49
much coming out that could do pretty
4:51
much anything they wanted to do. And
4:54
this was they were getting in trouble
4:56
from sensor boards all over the American
4:59
uh states, a lot of them in the south.
5:01
If they if you saw, you know, an
5:03
interracial relationship, uh, forget it.
5:06
The thing wasn't getting on it wasn't
5:08
getting on screens in like half the
5:09
country.
5:11
When the comics code was was brought in,
5:14
it was similar to the MPAA and that it
5:16
was self-imposed, but they had a problem
5:18
that they were having government
5:21
hearings. Uh I believe both the house
5:23
and the senate had hearings about the
5:26
corruptive power of comic book. Um
5:28
there's a book called uh um seduction of
5:30
the innocent by a man named Woram uh
5:33
doctor who argued that comic books were
5:36
seducing people into darkness and
5:39
depravity and sexual uh
5:41
>> depravity.
5:42
>> Depravity. Yeah. Um really big. He he
5:45
focused a lot on Batman and Robin in his
5:48
arguments. Basically trying to argue
5:51
that that this was not something you
5:54
wanted children to see because clearly
5:56
this unrelated man with this child in
5:58
his house was up to no good. Uh which is
6:02
why you started seeing things like a
6:03
woman moved into Wayne Manor. Um this is
6:06
where Aunt Harriet came from by the way
6:08
guys if you're ever wondering. It's
6:09
because DC Comics was like we cannot we
6:12
absolutely cannot let them censor us. If
6:14
you ever wondered why the EC comics of
6:16
the time, the horror comics kind of
6:18
vanished in the 50s, uh it's because of
6:21
this. The comics code basically what
6:23
they couldn't be published because
6:25
anything the comics code forbade all
6:27
sorts of things. It forbade like
6:29
excessive alcohol consumption, forget
6:31
drugs, you couldn't show drugs at all.
6:33
Um you know, showing dead bodies,
6:36
showing blood, showing, you know, gore.
6:38
These were things that were out. Is this
6:40
similar to how you couldn't show couples
6:42
on TV sharing a bed, they always had two
6:44
beds and why the Brady Bunch bathroom
6:46
didn't have a toilet? Stuff like that.
6:48
>> Yep. Absolutely. And that was the case
6:51
up until I want to say the late60s
6:55
heading into the 70s because it was
6:56
right around the time that the Vietnam
6:58
War was was ringing up. Uh of people
7:01
have lots of opinions about Stanley and
7:03
I myself am one of those people. But it
7:05
cannot be argued that he did not take a
7:08
stand against the self-imposed
7:11
censorship of the of the Comics Code
7:12
Authority because he wanted to tell a
7:15
story about Harry Osborne, the son of
7:18
the Green Goblin Norman Osborne being
7:20
addicted to drugs. Yep.
7:21
>> From the stress of, you know, knowing
7:24
that his family was all messed up. And
7:27
they were like, "You can't do it." And
7:28
he's like, "I am doing it." And they're
7:30
like, "You know, we'll find you." He
7:31
goes, "I don't care." and he took the
7:34
CCA off of the comic like literally
7:37
comics code authority seal was removed.
7:40
>> It was this moment which 10 years later
7:44
in as the 80s started and then in the
7:47
'9s to a degree the waves created by
7:50
Stanley basically standing up and saying
7:51
no uh we're not going to just pretend
7:54
nothing none of this stuff exists. It's
7:57
ridiculous. Um, how can I say that that
8:00
Peter Parker is an everyman when he
8:02
doesn't even have every band problems?
8:05
No, it's it's absurd. And it's what led
8:08
to Stan to Tony Stark being an
8:10
alcoholic. Uh, it's what led to a lot of
8:13
other story lines.
8:14
>> Hank Hank p him being an abuser and a
8:17
bunch of other things.
8:18
>> Possibly schizophrenic. Yep.
8:19
>> The a lot of these story lines, you can
8:22
talk about whether or not they were good
8:23
stories. Some of them were good, some of
8:24
them were not, but they were stories
8:26
that actually dealt with things that
8:28
were really happening, which were
8:29
against the comics code. The comics code
8:31
did not want you to be showing people
8:32
these things. You couldn't have gotten
8:34
there's a very famous comic book where
8:36
John Stewart is first introduced over at
8:38
DC. Uh, and it's got straight It's Some
8:41
people argue it's pretty ham-handed, and
8:43
I'm not disagreeing, but it straight up
8:45
says you've never confronted racism.
8:47
Mhm.
8:48
>> You know, you you've got this ring.
8:50
You're from space. You're supposedly
8:52
some kind of space cop. When are you
8:54
going to actually deal with the fact
8:55
that stuff is happening right here on
8:57
Earth? And you know, the story was one
9:00
of the stories that would not have been
9:01
published. And it's one of the reasons
9:03
that artists like Keith came up because
9:05
unlike we got to talk about image here,
9:07
right? Have we ever talked about it?
9:09
>> Yeah. Well, that that's what we were
9:10
started talking about when we started
9:11
going into uh the comics code authority
9:14
cuz what the things that that matter
9:15
pointed out these were huge steps in in
9:18
comic history, right? These were a huge
9:21
barrier had come down, but there was
9:23
still more that could be done there.
9:27
They didn't really deal with certain
9:30
things like having gay characters in a
9:33
comic book was still dicey at best. um
9:37
uh having uh anything that had to deal
9:40
with mental health or PTSD
9:43
was still dealt with in a very I don't
9:46
want to say soft way, but it never
9:49
really looked at it. It didn't look at
9:52
um the the weight of it at the time. Um,
9:56
and or it didn't look at homelessness or
9:59
urbanization or a lot of the things that
10:02
that we now see in popular media. Um,
10:07
that is is handled a lot more
10:10
realistically, a lot more this is what
10:13
happens in the real world. It was a lot
10:16
of of I don't want to say like golden
10:20
coating it, but it was a lot of like
10:21
watering it down. Like even the Hulk,
10:24
right? Like the Hulk is the Hulk is
10:26
schizophrenic, right? The Hulk has
10:27
multiple or multiple the ID. Um
10:30
>> it might be both really.
10:31
>> It might be it might be both, but that
10:33
that is that is sort of like like part
10:35
and parcel with the character. It's how
10:37
they've explained all these different
10:38
versions of the Hulk over the years. And
10:40
I still remember the comic where they
10:41
talked about the house with all the
10:43
locked rooms and they showed you
10:44
Banner's mind. Um, but even that never
10:48
really dove into the trauma of it until
10:50
years later and well after Image Comics
10:54
had been established and started pushing
10:56
those boundaries where you had
10:58
characters who were openly gay and in
11:01
relationships with each other. Uh, you
11:03
had people that would, you know, heroes
11:05
that would murder people that they, you
11:07
know, this person's irredeemable, we
11:09
will murder this villain and we will
11:12
have no remorse over it. um were dealing
11:15
with again like things like the Max
11:17
where mental health and homelessness
11:20
were at the the key of it like that
11:22
psychological that emotionally raw
11:25
storytelling that deal with like themes
11:27
of human trauma in reality that's when
11:30
they started really pushing those
11:32
limits.
11:33
>> Yeah. One thing you could argue is that
11:35
while the comics go authority had its
11:37
full power, while companies were too
11:38
scared to do anything, comic books could
11:41
never be anything but a very pale
11:43
allegory.
11:44
>> Mhm.
11:45
>> And once the CCA dropped, writers could
11:49
come along and artists could draw things
11:51
that push them into actually being
11:53
metaphorical. You could never get mouse
11:56
under the comics code. For all that, you
11:58
know, Mouse doesn't show a lot of really
12:00
graphic imagery. It talks frankly about
12:02
genocide and you know generational
12:05
racism. Uh and the problem with the
12:08
comics code was that it it crush it
12:10
didn't just prevent stuff from being
12:12
written. It crushed things that were
12:14
already being written. Uh one real big
12:16
example being the spirit uh by Will
12:18
Eisner. He just couldn't do half the
12:21
stories he wanted to do. And some of his
12:23
early stories weren't great. And one of
12:25
the things that will Eisner as an artist
12:27
did was learn as he as he went.
12:29
>> Mh. which comics code authority didn't
12:31
allow you to tell those stories in the
12:32
first place. So, there wasn't going to
12:33
be any learning. I I think that's it's
12:35
important to mention that while we talk
12:36
about Keith and Image because Image is
12:38
often thought of as the comic book
12:41
company started by Rich Hot Shots, the
12:43
Todd McFarland uh the the Oh god, I
12:47
can't remember Rob Lee's name. That
12:48
That's scary. Rob, my brain was like,
12:50
"No, don't say it. He might show up." Um
12:52
the Rob Lefelds, even the even the J,
12:54
you know, the Jim Lee. And certainly
12:57
that's a lot. you know th those names
12:59
were the ones that made Image so
13:01
attractive at the opening but it's
13:03
people like Sam Keith who came in and
13:06
did for Image what it really didn't know
13:08
it needed done and Image today is very
13:11
much a very different company much more
13:14
aligned to the kind of work that Sam
13:16
Keith was putting out. Um, the Maxes, if
13:19
the Max came out now, uh, people would
13:22
pretty much go, "Oh, yeah, that's the
13:23
kind of thing that Image does." Where at
13:25
the time it actually came out, people
13:27
were like, "This isn't like Finley
13:29
veiled pastiches of superhero comics
13:32
I've already read that were better." Um,
13:35
or I mean, say what you want about Tom
13:37
McFarland, I don't think Spawn was
13:38
ripping anybody off except visually.
13:40
>> Well, no. And even then it was it was uh
13:42
a proto version of a or sorry there was
13:45
a proto version of a character created
13:47
in Marvel by
13:49
uh by Todd McFarland that you know he
13:53
essentially moved in or morphed into
13:55
Spawn which was what he wanted the
13:57
original characters to be character to
13:59
be after Image Comics was founded.
14:01
>> Yeah. But at least you know that kind of
14:04
thing is not really Image anymore.
14:06
>> No. uh in a in a very real way image
14:08
basically became much more of a you know
14:11
you've got an independent comic you want
14:13
to put out um you're you're not going to
14:15
Darkhorse because you you there's lots
14:18
of reasons one of those is Darkhor has
14:19
kind of a spotted reputation on the idea
14:21
of licensing but Image is a good home
14:24
for some of them and Sim Keith is
14:27
definitely the reason that Image had
14:29
that in its DNA in the first place in my
14:31
opinion and you'll also notice that when
14:34
Keith stopped doing the max he rip his
14:37
company out of image the way almost
14:41
everybody else did. Uh Rob Lefeld pulled
14:43
all his stuff out in a in a hissy fit
14:45
because he was angry they didn't want
14:47
his, you know, Young Bloodood to be the
14:49
most important comic in the universe.
14:50
And um Jim, you know, Jim Lee was like,
14:53
I'm so sick of Rob Lefeld that I'm going
14:54
to sell all my stuff to DC Comics. Like,
14:56
you know, he just straight up was like,
14:57
nope, I'm done. Uh and Todd McFarland
15:00
was Todd McFarland. they he didn't care
15:02
what Rob did because he had his he had
15:04
Spawn and he knew full well he was never
15:07
going to have to worry about what Todd
15:08
did. He could publish it himself if he
15:10
wanted. So he he kept doing it. But but
15:12
the Max was like actually a coherent and
15:15
I feel weird saying coherent because
15:17
once you know
15:18
>> once we start getting into the story of
15:19
it, you're going to Yeah.
15:20
>> But it was a coherent story about
15:23
characters that were established like
15:26
they they had character. They started
15:28
with character and they they developed a
15:30
character in other ways as they went. I
15:32
would say Spawn doesn't become a comic
15:34
book with a story until about halfway
15:36
through the first the second year of its
15:38
run.
15:38
>> Yeah, I would I would agree with that.
15:40
>> But yeah, uh I do also think that it's
15:43
also fair before we talk to Max, um
15:46
there are some elements to this story
15:47
that you should be warned might be
15:49
triggering for you.
15:50
>> Yeah, for me and I've read the book.
15:54
Yeah, we should probably and I guess
15:57
we'll have a content warning in the
15:58
description as well. Um, we're not going
16:00
to talk too heavily about it. Um, but
16:03
the book does have uh again we talked
16:05
about homelessness, substance abuse. Um,
16:09
the idea of rape with uh both mental and
16:13
physical. Um, what else am I missing? I
16:16
think that's I think those are the major
16:18
the major triggers, right, Matt? I mean,
16:21
yeah, the the villain of the story is in
16:23
and of himself, the initial villain is
16:25
very much uh a trigger warning. I mean,
16:29
it's just But also,
16:31
>> again, we'll try not to go too deep into
16:32
it.
16:32
>> Yeah.
16:33
>> Yeah. But m Mr. Gone is is a character
16:35
that I feel like you should be aware of.
16:38
>> And also because the story ends
16:42
like it it actually ends. It comes to an
16:44
end point. Uh you could have kept going
16:46
with it. I mean, obviously Keith was
16:47
very fond of it and might have gone back
16:50
to it at some point, but it's it's a
16:53
since it's a contained story, you get to
16:55
see the characters, their stakes. The
16:58
characters could die or worse. Uh, the
17:01
Max himself, the opening of the Max,
17:04
what happens to the person who is the
17:06
Max in the world that we call the real
17:09
world is actually really disturbing.
17:11
>> Mhm. like his his origin story is a
17:14
subsumation of his identity uh into the
17:17
identity of somebody else. Uh and it is
17:19
it's a it's an interesting way to look
17:21
at the concept because keep in mind this
17:22
still kind of is a superhero comic. I
17:25
mean vaguely real vaguely. Um, but the
17:28
initial the initial writing that Keith
17:31
did on it, he was treating it like it
17:33
was happening in the other image that
17:35
the image universe that had all these
17:36
different characters in it and meanwhile
17:38
this guy, you know, uh, and yeah, uh,
17:42
just so just be warned. I do I will say
17:44
straight up, I do think that the the Max
17:46
is absolutely a comic you um,
17:48
>> if you can deal with the themes. Yes.
17:49
>> Yeah. If you can deal with the themes,
17:51
even if you even if like me you are
17:53
triggered by some of them, it's worth
17:54
trying to push through when you can get
17:56
to a safe place. But don't ever feel
17:58
forced to. I just know I got a lot out
18:00
of it.
18:01
>> Yeah. And I mean it I'm trying to think
18:04
of how how to start this off. So the the
18:06
main story arc revolves around like Matt
18:09
said, Mr. Gone, which is uh he is a
18:11
serial rapist with a telepathic link to
18:13
the main character, Julie. Um he has
18:16
extensive knowledge of her subconscious
18:19
as well as other people's subconscious
18:21
or as Julie refers to it, something
18:23
called the Outback.
18:25
um he
18:28
during traumatic experiences, Julie
18:31
tends to retreat to the outback. So when
18:34
she was a kid and this happened to her,
18:36
um the tall tales that Mr. Gong used to
18:39
tell her about visiting Australia
18:41
created this this sort of subconscious
18:43
space, this larger than life, this sort
18:46
of ethereal mental scape that allowed
18:49
her to be in control, in power. And so
18:54
while retreating there, she would often
18:56
become or view herself as what was
18:57
called the jungle queen, an all powerful
19:00
goddess. Um she spends so much time
19:04
there uh in the comic books that the
19:07
real world and the outback gradually
19:09
become unstable and start bleeding into
19:13
each other. Um there one night she's
19:16
driving and she accidentally hits a
19:17
homeless man with her car. remembering
19:20
what happens the last time she stopped
19:21
to help somebody which resulted in her
19:23
being beaten and left for dead as well
19:24
as physically abused. Um she covers the
19:27
unconscious body with trash but in doing
19:29
so uh unconsciously creates a link
19:32
between it and her the outback or her
19:35
outback. She leaves, I think it's a
19:37
lampshade if I remember correctly, uh,
19:40
on the pile of trash that had been in or
19:43
had brushed the Outback, which then
19:45
expands to cover the man's body and
19:47
become a mask that consumes him and
19:50
links him to Julie, uh, sensibly turning
19:52
this homeless man that she hit with a
19:53
car into the Max again.
19:56
>> No, that's how this thing starts.
19:57
>> This is the opening. This is the opening
20:00
of it. So, yeah, go. Um the this is sort
20:04
of the him figuring out what he is, who
20:07
he is, and he's a large purple man with
20:10
a very weird face, hooks for for uh
20:14
middle fingers essentially. Um he does
20:16
have hands, but they're mostly hooks. Um
20:20
and it's it is a very surreal
20:24
comic and art style even from the
20:26
storyline. And like I said earlier, when
20:28
Keith started writing this and drawing
20:30
this and plotting this out, it was about
20:33
these are real world problems. These are
20:35
real world things that happen to people
20:38
and what would happen if the you know
20:41
the subconscious retreat that people go
20:43
into from these traumatic experience
20:45
started becoming reality. And his art
20:48
wasn't super polished. As a matter of
20:50
fact, one of the things that was
20:51
established here and earlier in some of
20:53
his other arts, you could see some of
20:54
the incredible Hulk art that he did, um,
20:57
as well as several other comics, uh,
20:59
where proportions were merely a
21:01
suggestion for him. And I don't mean in
21:03
the Leaffield way of, uh, he just can't
21:06
draw feet and his chest is too big and
21:08
we're just going to shove pockets on
21:10
everything. It was intentionally
21:12
distorted. Um,
21:14
>> yeah, it was distortion of
21:15
>> there was a purpose. Yeah, it's
21:17
basically like the distorted versions of
21:19
the of the people, the more distorted
21:21
they are, the more it's an objective
21:22
correlative for their mental state. Uh
21:24
when you see Sarah, who's kind of the
21:27
lead of the um second, you know, story
21:30
that the book tells, um Sarah is often
21:34
depicted as just normal, but then like
21:37
sometimes it'll come in really tight on
21:38
her eyes or like from an above
21:41
perspective where which makes her like
21:43
whole face look huge and her body look
21:44
really small. These are done to kind of
21:48
telegraph what's going on in her head
21:50
without you know there weren't many
21:51
thought balloons. Uh this is not a
21:54
thought balloon comic. So you he's using
21:56
visual storytelling to you know
21:58
emphasize the journey the character is
22:00
going through all the characters.
22:02
>> Is this one of the things that he kind
22:04
of initiated or was this a trend that
22:06
was kind of taken off and he jumped on
22:08
it?
22:09
>> It's his version. It's very much not
22:11
something other people did the way he
22:13
did it. He's almost a surrealist.
22:16
>> Yeah, it's it's very Yeah, I was gonna
22:17
say that's that's sort of like the key
22:19
elements of this, right? This is what he
22:20
brings to the comics and and I want to
22:23
bring like we'll link this to current
22:26
world so that you you kind of have an
22:27
idea with it. Um that surrealist idea of
22:32
what's happening that surrealist uh sort
22:34
of view of the world was very much
22:37
established. I mean, it had already been
22:40
dabbled with before, but it was firmly
22:42
established here. It became a norm. And
22:46
you can see this echoing decades later
22:49
as we see things like Doctor Strange and
22:53
uh going through the multiverse and
22:56
dealing with uh like you literally watch
22:58
the second Doctor Strange movie. Heck,
23:01
watch the first Doctor Strange movie
23:02
where they're going through uh sort of
23:04
the astral realm. That sort of
23:06
surrealist take on it is something that
23:09
you would see in San Keith's work. It's
23:11
something that he would establish and
23:13
codify as possible in comics and make it
23:17
common place which is massively powerful
23:21
cuz think of how many comics and movies
23:24
and animations we've seen where that
23:27
surreal aspect has become central to the
23:30
character. I'm remembering I believe
23:33
it's uh Constantine and I think it's the
23:35
the house of uh I can't remember what it
23:38
was. The house of eternity, the house of
23:39
the house of mysteries.
23:40
>> House of mysteries. Thank you. Uh where
23:43
he's and I'm air quote being punished uh
23:46
because he broke the rule of the
23:48
universe. So he's being stuck in his
23:50
house and he's constantly trying to
23:53
escape. But the surrealist of it is
23:55
sometimes the people around him turn
23:57
into demons and eat him alive. Uh
23:59
sometimes the people just murder him.
24:01
Sometimes he escapes and then is brought
24:03
back. And it's this whole shifting
24:05
landscape until he realizes what's
24:07
happening with the spectre, another
24:09
character who has been very powerful.
24:12
This this this sort of comic god, if you
24:14
will. Um then leans into that surrealist
24:18
that thought is power. Thought is
24:20
something that can shape the world. Uh
24:23
thought is something that can shape
24:25
reality around you and other characters.
24:28
And if Keith had not done this with his
24:32
works in the early 90s, particularly the
24:34
Max, uh, and a little bit with Zero Girl
24:37
as well, you this would not be norm. It
24:41
was so popular, so wellreceived by
24:43
readers that it just was codified as a
24:47
normal thing.
24:48
>> Yeah. I think too, you have to kind of
24:49
understand with Keith is he came up a
24:52
journeyman. He came up doing whatever
24:54
comic book work he could get. Uh like
24:57
one one example is he was actually an
25:00
incher on Infinity Incorporated for an
25:02
episode like an issue. Um he he did like
25:05
Manhunter one through three. This was in
25:08
88 and 89. Um he did about the first I
25:12
think the first five or six issues of
25:14
Sandman which I believe were like 89 or
25:16
90. Um so his Sandman run is is where he
25:22
started developing it. Uh, I think where
25:24
where he goes from, you know, flirting
25:26
with it to actually having an a writer
25:29
say, "No, Sam."
25:30
>> Well, yeah. He's he's
25:31
>> weird.
25:32
>> He's a co-creator of Saman with Neil
25:34
Gaiman.
25:34
>> Yeah. And it's very obvious that for for
25:38
whatever you think about Neil Gaiman, I
25:39
I have my problems. But he definitely
25:41
obviously said to Sam, "Kith, I go. I am
25:45
not telling you what anything should
25:46
look like.
25:47
>> Just do it. Um, I will give you the bare
25:51
minimum of desri of descriptions and I
25:53
want to see what you come up with. And
25:56
that goes if you when you see the max,
25:58
the max is very much the book that
26:01
somebody who had that experience would
26:03
make. And it's not like it it's it's
26:06
kind of messed up because he worked for
26:09
Comico,
26:11
>> who I don't know if you guys remember
26:12
ComicCo, but they did one of my favorite
26:14
comics of all time, Mage. Um, absolutely
26:17
just one of my favorite books, period.
26:19
And he did five issues of Mage in ' 86
26:23
or so. And that's just the pedigree of
26:26
that the the throughine of his work as
26:28
he develops from guy who does whatever
26:31
job he can get to, you know, guy who
26:34
creates books that influence other
26:37
people is very much spent time learning
26:39
his craft. And you can see where he gets
26:43
to the point where they'll just let him
26:45
do what he does. And it's Sandman is the
26:48
first comic that did that. Uh trying we
26:52
we I don't want to say we've given up
26:53
telling you what the story of the Max
26:55
is, but I'm going to what I'm going to
26:56
do here is try and give you a synopsis
26:59
and you'll see how you do not understand
27:00
what I'm talking about. Mr. gone, who
27:02
we've already covered his, you know, his
27:04
role as the villain. Uh, is chasing this
27:07
woman Julie who has a connection to a
27:09
dream world that she built in her own
27:11
head to escape him when she was a child.
27:14
Uh he's a telepath and he's mcking
27:16
around with her thoughts which causes
27:18
instability between the real world and
27:20
the world she built in her head which
27:22
spills out and creates the Max who is a
27:25
a homeless person who has basically had
27:26
his entire life hijacked and stolen by
27:29
an entity from her dream world uh which
27:32
she calls the outback because he told
27:34
stories about Australia. Then we cut to
27:37
a girl named Sarah who at one point
27:39
stayed with Julie and her husband who we
27:41
don't know. We'd never seen him before
27:43
because the book jumps forward 10 years
27:45
and didn't tell you. Um then there's a
27:48
whole bunch of back and forth as to what
27:50
happened in the 10-year gap. Sarah turns
27:52
out to be Mr. Gone's daughter who is
27:55
possibly inheriting powers similar to
27:57
his but who doesn't want to be like
28:01
there's a there's a certain this is in
28:03
my opinion this is a reaction to books
28:05
like what uh Joe talked about earlier
28:07
the concept of you know heroes who will
28:10
kill a villain if they're irredeemable
28:12
Mr. gone is by almost all accounts
28:14
irredeemable. But Julie, when it comes
28:17
time, Julie as the jungle queen, tells
28:18
the ax not to kill him. That even evil
28:21
people should have a chance to rest and
28:23
even redeem them. That you can't just
28:25
butcher them. And the book ends in a way
28:29
where you could you could look at it and
28:31
go, "This is wickedly unrealistic.
28:33
There's no way that you could have this
28:35
happen." And the other way to look at it
28:36
is this is his hell.
28:38
>> Mhm.
28:39
>> He's gone to hell. It's it is a hell for
28:42
him because he'll never be who he was.
28:44
He'll never be the person he was. It's
28:47
gone. Just like him. He's Mr. Gone. Mr.
28:50
Gone is gone by the end of the story.
28:52
And that was me attempting to make this
28:55
thing explicable and I failed miserably
28:58
cuz it's just
28:59
>> it's the power of the Max is the visual.
29:01
>> Yeah. And like and that's the thing,
29:03
right? Because again, it's that raw
29:04
emotion. And I want to really comment on
29:07
that art style, too, because it's
29:09
something we've seen more really
29:11
recently with a wildly successful comic
29:14
series by DC Comics with the Absolute
29:18
Universe. The Absolute Universe is a
29:21
darker, grittier version of every DC
29:24
character you have ever known. Um, so
29:28
and it really revolves around the big
29:30
pantheon of the Justice League where
29:33
their Superman is grittier and darker.
29:37
Their version of Batman, he's not a
29:38
millionaire. Um, he's just a guy who
29:42
happens to be trained by Alfred
29:43
Pennyworth who was a mercenary. Uh,
29:45
there's more to it and I'm glad I'm
29:47
glossing over it. um absolute Wonder
29:49
Woman who was uh whisked away to protect
29:54
her from uh being essentially seen and
29:57
sacrificed to the gods uh and tucked
30:00
away and trained by Cersi and a bunch of
30:02
the other gods blessings. Um like there
30:06
everything is darker, everything is
30:08
grittier, but the thing is the art style
30:11
for it is what's getting a lot of
30:13
attention. And that art style is raw.
30:16
It's It's pretty, but not in the same
30:19
way that like the golden age of comics
30:22
are are polished. There's raw lines,
30:26
there's sketchy lines, there's heavy ink
30:28
work. Um there's a a atmosphere to these
30:33
comics that the first time I picked up
30:37
uh Absolute Wonder Woman number one, my
30:40
first thought was this looks like a Sam
30:42
Keith book. Same thing with Absolute
30:45
Batman. And
30:46
>> although it's weird as you say this, um,
30:50
if you want to know what Absolute Comic
30:53
looks the most like the Max, uh,
30:55
especially the the Outback of the Max,
30:58
it's Absolute Martian Manhunter.
30:59
>> Yeah, I was just going to say that
31:00
between that and Green Lantern, like
31:02
those two really push the the the
31:05
aspects of that surrealist and that
31:07
surrealism that that that sort of weird
31:10
raw emotion. But that's something that
31:13
really Sam Keith was known for doing and
31:15
really pushing when he was doing his own
31:16
comics. It was again not just the
31:20
proportions, but the line work, the
31:22
inking. Um, you can see it with the
31:24
original Sandman comics. Like go back
31:26
and look at the original Sandman comics.
31:28
that aesthetic that that dark gothic
31:32
aesthetic was intentionally made so
31:35
because of the emotion of the
31:37
characters, the emotion of the the the
31:39
that they were trying to convey. And the
31:41
same is true for for what's happening
31:43
now. These I would argue that all of
31:46
these comics are are very
31:48
emotion driven for the characters, which
31:51
is fantastic, and the art style reflects
31:53
that. when things get hairy, they get
31:55
fuzzier, they get more they get less
31:59
polished. And that something that Sam
32:02
Keith made okay. That popularity of it,
32:06
that that acceptance of it when he hit
32:07
the mainstream with his comics and that
32:10
reception made it okay for artists to do
32:13
that. And I'm not saying that they're
32:15
copying him. Um, but it is definitely
32:18
something where before then it was all
32:20
about very clean line work, very clean
32:23
strokes, making it polished, making sure
32:26
that the colors were were not going to
32:28
bleed together for printing, uh,
32:30
maximizing how how you could get the
32:33
pages laid out so that you got the most
32:36
story into as many panels as possible.
32:39
when you look at
32:39
>> if you took
32:40
>> Go ahead.
32:40
>> I was say if you took like one of those
32:42
those boxes that the internet loves
32:44
where they have you know jock at the top
32:47
and goth on the side and you know you
32:49
you basically go this character is this
32:51
close to these. So if you did that with
32:53
the the original image artists, if you
32:56
put McFarland in one corner, Lee in
32:58
another, and Jim Lee in the other, um,
33:01
all of them would basically be
33:03
differently um, I don't want to say
33:05
swiping, but I can't think of a better
33:07
word here. Differently inspired by Sam
33:09
Keith. Uh, Jim Lee is almost inspired to
33:13
reject him. Like Jim Lee is trying for
33:16
everything that Joe just said about
33:17
clean lines. That's Jim Lee to a tea. He
33:20
wants his art to be absolutely clean and
33:23
precise. At least he did in that time
33:25
period. I'd say today he's still. Um
33:27
McFarland is sort of halfway. Like he's
33:30
he's definitely got an an element that
33:32
you could pick up from studying Sam
33:34
Keith. He's definitely especially as he
33:36
moves on as an artist, he gets a lot
33:38
more like that. Mhm. Um,
33:39
>> his Spider-Man days are mostly just kind
33:41
of lumpy, whereas by the time he's, you
33:44
know, doing character design and
33:46
drawings for Spawn and so forth, he
33:48
changes up a lot as an artist. Uh,
33:50
Lefeld is like if you take the soul out
33:53
and you still rip off everybody, but
33:55
you're you're trying to steal Sam
33:57
Keith's surrealistic approach to
33:59
physiques and you that's just you draw
34:02
badly. Um, I'm sorry. He's probably a
34:05
nice person for all I know. I never
34:06
heard a good story about him. But
34:08
regardless, Sam Keith just no one has
34:11
ever mistaken Sam Keith for anybody, not
34:15
even Bisley. And Bisley was the only one
34:17
I could think of who was even kind of
34:19
like you could say you could actually
34:21
compare them and say, "Oh, I could see
34:22
how people did that." But no one ever
34:24
did that. No one ever compared him to
34:26
anybody. Uh once he got rolling, once he
34:28
once his style was established, um not
34:31
just the Max, his Batman book.
34:33
>> Yeah.
34:33
>> Uh you did two. He did one with the
34:35
Joker, which by the way, you know,
34:36
absolutely inspired to get Sam Keith to
34:39
draw your Joker focus com. Uh, and then
34:41
he did one with Lobo. And the Lobo one,
34:43
I think, is why I had the Bisley, but
34:45
he's not it's not at all the way Bisley
34:47
draws Lobo.
34:49
It's not the way Bisley wrote Lo or I
34:50
don't even know if Bisley ever actually
34:52
wrote, but it just it isn't that
34:53
character, even though it is. Yeah, I'm
34:55
I'm kind of rambling here because of,
34:57
you know, how I feel like it's very hard
34:59
to to overemphasize how important Keith
35:01
was to the development of comic book
35:03
art. Well, and let's let's even go a
35:06
little step further because there was a
35:07
while it was commercially unsuccessful
35:10
for DC comics. Uh it had the potential
35:14
and and I'm saying this because DC as a
35:17
company uh and their their parent
35:19
company Warner Brothers uh didn't
35:21
understand what they had on their hands.
35:23
They essentially tried to reboot the DC
35:27
universe in 2013 with something that
35:31
they called the New 52. Um, and it was
35:34
supposed to be a new series of weekly
35:36
releases for the 52 weeks of the year,
35:39
uh, reinventing and redefining their
35:43
like big comics, uh, their Batman lines,
35:46
everything that they had, uh, under
35:48
their disposal. Uh, Sam Keith was
35:50
actually involved in this. Um, in
35:52
particular, he was involved with the
35:54
Harley Quinn relaunch, the Harley Quinn
35:57
standalone New 52 title. Um, it was
36:02
wildly very much Sam Key and they gave
36:07
him sort of the opportunity to redefine
36:10
the art style of the character and made
36:13
her grittier,
36:16
more realistic, and brought her down
36:19
from a I would I would argue at this
36:22
point in 2013 from a side character that
36:25
started as something on the animated
36:27
series as comic relief and and found her
36:30
way into comics as a secondary character
36:32
to the Joker to being what was really
36:36
the first I I would argue independent
36:40
version of herself. Uh it it was this
36:44
here's her origin, here's her her story,
36:47
here's her in, you know, Arkham sitting
36:50
there being talked to by the
36:51
psychologist. And when you look at
36:53
modern-day versions of Harley Quinn now,
36:57
a lot of that is influenced by this
36:59
comic that it didn't do terribly well
37:02
because again, Warner Brothers didn't
37:03
know what they had on their hands, but
37:05
yet it was just so visceral and and real
37:11
and made her a real standalone person.
37:15
When you talk about that too, one of the
37:16
things that it did that other people had
37:18
done to a degree, obviously it was even
37:19
in her origin like mad love and so
37:21
forth. This one really deconstructed the
37:24
idea of an abusive relationship. What it
37:26
is like to live with someone
37:28
>> again that trauma
37:29
>> who is a narcissistic abuser and who is
37:32
a genius at it. He is extremely good at
37:36
finding the holes in people's psyches
37:38
and and pressing them. And it's actually
37:41
works better on smart people.
37:43
>> Yep. like she's not Harleen Quinzel as
37:47
she's depicted in this, you know, in
37:48
this book is not at all uh a
37:52
lightweight.
37:53
>> She earned her degree. It's not like
37:55
sometimes they imply that she got it
37:56
through other means, but in this story
37:58
straight up, she earned her degree. She
38:00
was an upand cominging prodigy. She had
38:03
multiple books out and it made it easier
38:06
for him because he could go read them.
38:08
Like he could get hooks into her by
38:10
looking at her stuff. Um, it's one of
38:13
the reasons that's actually been floated
38:14
over the years as to why Batman, you
38:17
know, never wants anyone to know his
38:18
real identity and why it's kind of a a
38:21
flaw in the Joker that he doesn't
38:23
believe that Bruce Wayne is important.
38:25
Like, it's implied often that that Joker
38:28
knows who who Batman really, but he
38:30
doesn't care cuz he doesn't he he thinks
38:32
that Batman is who he really. So, that's
38:34
I don't care about the the the
38:35
billionaire he pretends to be, but that
38:38
is actually who he is. the the major
38:40
life event is that of Bruce Wayne. It
38:43
wasn't Batman in that alley. You know,
38:45
it was a kid. Uh and I liked the way
38:47
that the Harley Quinn comic uses that
38:50
kind of manipulation, not as an excuse
38:53
for the the horrible things that she did
38:54
in the comics, just as like look, this
38:57
is what it does. It's like this is what
38:59
it is like to submerge yourself in acid.
39:02
That's a whole thing. He talks her into
39:04
throwing herself into the same acid that
39:06
burned him
39:07
>> to become Harley Quinn. And that becomes
39:11
in Keith hands that's a metaphor. That's
39:13
like straight up it's the entire
39:15
relationship is the ass.
39:17
>> And they go even further with it too cuz
39:18
like back in I want to say 2010 maybe a
39:21
little bit earlier uh diving into other
39:24
Arkham stories, right? Because Sam Keith
39:27
also did a like again the success of the
39:29
Max and the success of his style led him
39:33
to do other things like Arkham Asylum
39:36
Madness which is a really
39:40
interesting look at everybody that's
39:43
assigned to Arkham City, right? Um, it's
39:48
essentially a book where you spend 24
39:50
hours in the haunted house of Arkham
39:52
Asylum for the Criminally Insane in a
39:54
Batman graphic novel where Sam Keith is
39:58
deconstructing the psychosis of all of
40:00
these characters and doing it in a in
40:03
his signature style where it is haunting
40:07
and affecting and just really I I don't
40:12
want to say breathes new life into these
40:13
characters, but it It almost humanizes
40:18
their psychosis in a way that again you
40:23
don't really see in the 80s, 90s, and
40:26
even some of the early 2000s Batman
40:28
comics because they're just eccentric or
40:32
um they're just okay
40:34
>> evil.
40:34
>> They're evil or or this one dresses up
40:37
like a cat uh or or whatever the case is
40:40
or this one got mutated into a man bat.
40:42
But no, here it starts breaking down
40:44
like why is Harvey not too faced? Why
40:46
was he too faced before this? What was
40:48
that sort of mental breakdown? Like
40:50
>> Long Halloween is very much something
40:52
that is inspired by San
40:55
>> even though the art style is not
40:56
tremendously similar uh because it's you
40:59
know
41:00
>> that psychological deconstruction is
41:02
though
41:03
>> it is very much is similar to Sam Keith.
41:05
Oddly enough, um
41:08
I think one of the most Sam Keith
41:10
inspired stories from somebody you would
41:12
not expect to have written a Sam Keith
41:14
inspired story is a Dan Jurgens story
41:17
where he has Superman tortured over
41:20
whether or not he killed a creature that
41:23
was made out of the brains of an entire
41:25
town of people who were aliens
41:28
experimented on them and made them into
41:30
this giant brain monster. And they use
41:33
he thinks they use their tele telepathy
41:35
to knock him unconscious and then use
41:38
his body to kill them like to commit
41:40
suicide which breaks his sanity and he
41:42
kind of starts losing his mind.
41:44
>> He he ends up becoming an a dark
41:47
costumed vigilante at night in imitation
41:50
of a a person who already existed called
41:52
Gangbuster. And it isn't until he
41:55
eventually leaves Earth to go on an
41:57
intergalactic exploration, which is
41:59
another thing that Sam Keith might do.
42:02
Uh he he would like to show you a bunch
42:03
of alien things. But in the end, it
42:05
comes out that he didn't kill them. The
42:08
the brain monster just knocked him
42:10
unconscious. It had telekinesis. Why did
42:12
it didn't need his body,
42:14
>> you know? They just did did it itself.
42:16
Um, but it was a very, this, keep in
42:19
mind, this was like late 80s, early 90s,
42:22
and it was a very Sam Keith storyline
42:24
for Superman. Um, every time I look at
42:27
it, I'm like, not many people were doing
42:29
madness in comic books quite like this
42:31
at this time. Um, so yeah, fact that he
42:34
did, you know, he he did, you know,
42:36
Manhunter in 88 and he did the, you
42:39
know, Sam Man Itself in 89 to 90. That's
42:42
the same time frame as what we're
42:43
talking about. So that's people were
42:46
reading his stuff, people were looking
42:48
at it. Um yeah, I just every time I
42:51
think about this, I think about that
42:52
that weird I don't want to say weird. I
42:54
mean literally his obsessions were weird
42:56
things. The intersection between uh
42:59
mental illness and lived experience, the
43:02
world as a as a manifestation of your
43:05
problems. Uh you see the world through
43:07
the lens that you bring. Uh and Max is
43:09
very much about this. Uh Max is is very
43:12
very much about the world isn't, you
43:15
know, the world doesn't change to be
43:16
different for everyone. It's just that
43:18
you're different and so it's different
43:20
for you. Um and that there's a whole bit
43:22
with like the Julie as the Jungle Queen
43:25
trying to convince Max not to kill Mr.
43:27
Gone, who's objectively one of the worst
43:30
people anybody in that story has ever
43:32
met. And she's like it doesn't you even
43:35
even the even this you know they're they
43:38
from their perspective things are very
43:40
different and the world responds to
43:42
people's perspectives like you said
43:44
before about how thoughts have power and
43:45
how ideas have power perspective has
43:47
power.
43:48
>> Yeah. And and again like one of the
43:50
reasons why we we I I know Matt and I
43:53
think are on the same page with this
43:55
with Sam Keith is because he opened up a
43:57
lot of doors for some of the best
43:59
storytelling to come later on. But it
44:02
it's very clear his influence on writers
44:06
and artists. Um, you can see it in the
44:10
motion of Spider-Man comics. I'm not
44:12
saying Jim Lee wasn't influential in
44:13
that. He absolutely was. But going back
44:15
to what Matt said earlier, you could see
44:17
what Jim Lee picked up from Sam Keith
44:20
where getting that raw emotion into the
44:22
pages matters. Um, I remember reading
44:26
um,
44:27
>> sorry, go ahead. Sam Keith is the reason
44:30
cape got ridiculous for Batman.
44:33
>> Yes.
44:33
>> Because when Sam Keith is drawing
44:35
Batman, that cape is not just a piece of
44:37
cloth stuck to his back. That cape is a
44:39
metaphor. Like is it billowing and
44:42
flowing? And this is something McFarland
44:44
very much was inspired by when he did
44:46
Spawn because Spawn's cape is Sam
44:48
Keithing all over the place.
44:50
>> Mhm.
44:51
>> And that that comes from Keith's work on
44:52
Batman. Keith is one of those people who
44:55
in a way it it would have been better if
44:57
they could have given him Batman a
44:59
completely selfisolated Batman a you
45:01
don't bring any characters that are not
45:03
part of just normal Batman comics no
45:06
flying aliens no Amazon warriors just
45:09
this crazy little town I think Sam Keith
45:12
is your best guy for a lot of the people
45:14
who came up after him um who did stuff
45:17
with it like I already mentioned the
45:19
long Halloween that's they got to do it
45:22
because Keith came in started.
45:23
>> Yeah. Like it made that the success of
45:26
it like I hate to say this because it
45:27
was the it's a corporatization of comics
45:30
and storytelling for a while really and
45:33
even now you see it limits what
45:36
publishers are willing to do to a
45:39
certain extent. Um, I tell this story
45:41
about a friend of mine who worked at a
45:44
uh on a video game that happened to be
45:47
being produced with Warner Brothers and
45:49
DCPs.
45:50
And we had a conversation over a few
45:53
beers the one night about how much of a
45:58
hellacious thing it was for them because
46:01
they would have these wonderful ideas
46:03
for really cool things but they'd have
46:05
to run it up the corporate ladder and
46:08
they'd have to get the approval by these
46:10
big wigs in charge in this case Warner
46:12
Brothers at the time where Warner
46:15
Brothers would not let them do something
46:17
unless they can justify it with the
46:19
success of the exact thing they want to
46:21
do in another context that had already
46:24
been done. So they had to constantly
46:28
frame things like we want to do this
46:30
with this character and this other
46:31
character and this other IP that's
46:33
wildly successful did it as well. You
46:35
had that same thing with comics. And so
46:38
with Sam Keith's Max and Zero Girl and
46:42
being as popular as they were, with
46:44
Image Comics being as popular as they
46:46
became, uh, which then eventually got
46:48
bought by DC Comics at some point, I
46:50
believe, and then
46:52
>> not Image, but Wildstar.
46:53
>> Wildstar, sorry. Wild Storm. Um, uh,
46:56
Wild Storm, which was an imprint of
46:57
Image, got bought by DC and those
46:59
characters came over. Part of the reason
47:00
DC bought uh Wild Storm was because of
47:03
the wild success of these adult or more
47:06
adultoriented titles, these more serious
47:09
characters. But then that also allowed
47:11
them other artists and storytellers to
47:13
go, well, they did it and it was
47:15
successful, so we should do it too. And
47:18
it starts opening that door where the
47:21
executives no longer have the well, you
47:23
know, the ability to say, well, we don't
47:24
want to do that because it's not going
47:25
to be successful. And that wouldn't have
47:28
happened without Sam Keith and and his
47:31
desire to really highlight very dark
47:35
human condition. Um like I one of the
47:38
things I I mentioned the the Jessica
47:40
Jones TV series. Jessica Jones is a
47:42
character in general. She's been around
47:44
for a long time. Her story got very
47:47
dark. There are a lot of adult themes in
47:50
it. And if you watch the liveaction
47:53
show, she is a character who has
47:55
survived mental and physical abuse and
47:58
sexual assault, a number of other things
48:01
that forced her to do stuff that she
48:04
never wanted to do. Uh it deals with the
48:07
the story of addiction. And it deals
48:08
with the story of trauma and and PTSD
48:13
that would not have been done had this
48:16
not already been established as
48:18
something that people actually want to
48:21
see in their comic characters. Had Sam
48:24
Keith not succeeded with the Max. Had
48:26
those 35 issues of the Max never
48:28
released, Jessica Jones the TV show
48:31
never would have happened. Jessica Jones
48:33
more uh traumatic, more adult, more
48:35
gritty storytelling never would have
48:38
happened and that so many other
48:41
instances of that. Go ahead, Eric.
48:42
>> That that's what I was wondering as I
48:43
was reading the first issue of the Max
48:46
that
48:47
were comics an easier way to break in.
48:49
Was it easier to have something like
48:51
this in a comic than a movie or a TV
48:53
show or even a video game? Because we're
48:56
hearing now that you have to have an
48:59
idea that's a guarantee. The studios
49:01
don't want to invest in anything that
49:03
isn't going to be probably a home run.
49:04
We're getting so many sequels. We're
49:06
getting so many reboots. We're getting
49:07
so many movies based off of books that
49:10
are known to be popular for comic.
49:12
>> I'm sorry to report to you that
49:14
unfortunately the answer you're going to
49:16
get to this question is no. If anything,
49:18
it was harder, which is why Image became
49:20
a thing. Yeah. Image broke off and did
49:24
their own thing because Marvel and DC
49:26
were not going to do it.
49:28
>> Yeah. like I can't the spawn is a really
49:30
good example of this, right? So the the
49:32
living cape, the the entity that is the
49:34
costume of uh Spawn is a symbiate. It is
49:38
a it is a symbiotic creature that has
49:41
bonded with the uh the wielder. Um and
49:46
that had its roots born in Marvel. So I
49:50
think it was Nightw Watch was the
49:51
character. I think it's been a long
49:54
>> character who looks a lot like Squan.
49:55
Yeah,
49:55
>> because that night watch was created by
49:59
Tom Inferno.
50:02
>> Um,
50:02
>> and then they wouldn't let him do
50:03
anything he wanted to do with it, so he
50:05
left. And it's the the thing about like
50:09
Joe was talking about Alias. Alias
50:11
actually came out after Zero Girl.
50:14
>> Yeah.
50:15
>> Not by much, but there is no way you can
50:18
convince me that Brian Michael Bendis,
50:20
who wrote Alias and wrote several other
50:22
books, will like it. Um, I forget the
50:25
private eye one, but he was not ignorant
50:28
of who Sam Keith was, cuz Sam Keith was
50:30
all over comic books in the 80s and 90s.
50:32
There's just no way that in 2001, a guy
50:35
putting out a book about a woman going
50:36
through all this stuff didn't know about
50:39
the Max, much less Zero Girl, which he,
50:42
you know, came out right around the same
50:43
time. Again, written and drawn by Sam
50:46
Keith. Uh there's just a lot of in in a
50:49
we real way that Keith paid the price
50:52
for being the one to to blaze the trail
50:54
because once the trail is blazed, you've
50:57
expended a ton of time and energy making
50:59
it exist and now other people can run
51:01
down it and see where they can get to
51:03
and you're sitting there going, "Okay,
51:06
okay, I got to take I'm just going to
51:07
get some air." Uh and you know, you
51:09
don't you know, in a real way, Keith
51:11
didn't get to be the one taking stuff as
51:14
far as he wanted to. It wasn't that he
51:16
wasn't still working. He kept working
51:17
right up. Like there's stuff he was
51:19
working on in like 2017.
51:21
>> Um then unfortunately he got Louis body
51:23
dementos. You know that that's that's
51:26
why he's dead and that's a tragedy. But
51:30
I don't think you can argue that Keith
51:31
wasn't prolific. He wasn't you know
51:34
constantly working as much as he could
51:36
and that he wasn't creating. Uh
51:38
absolutely all of that's he was still
51:40
doing uh right up until as close to the
51:42
end as we could really want him to. And
51:45
even like you mentioned the New 52, he
51:47
was still putting out stuff like he did
51:49
a Batman the Max Arkham Dreams book in
51:52
2018 to 2020
51:53
>> which was which was the fact that they
51:55
let him do that was unheard of
51:56
unparalleled but the fact that it was I
52:00
mean again maybe no surprise to us but
52:02
it was just very much it was Sam Keith
52:05
unfiltered right
52:07
>> yeah the Max is actually a really good
52:08
character for that because all of
52:11
Batman's villains are essentially
52:13
psychological conditions
52:14
in costumes. Uh, and in a real way so is
52:17
Batman. Uh, and so having the Max who is
52:20
essentially like, look, you can look
52:22
into this world that is literally made
52:24
out of the subconscious mind. Uh, it's
52:26
it's a good it's an inspired choice and
52:28
and you don't want anybody but him doing
52:30
it. So
52:31
>> yeah, I mean, I don't know what else
52:32
there is to say at this point. So I
52:34
guess Eric, do you have questions or
52:37
things that you want to know more about
52:39
that we might be able to answer?
52:40
>> So I read the first issue of the Max. I
52:43
was able to get the first three from a
52:45
library. I definitely plug for your
52:48
local libraries. They have comic books.
52:49
You can go you can find them near you.
52:51
And uh I knew that even if I had sat all
52:54
week knowing that this was our topic and
52:56
read comic books, I still would not be
52:58
anywhere close to being at the same
52:59
level as Matt and Joe. So I I knew that
53:02
I wouldn't need to um do any more than
53:05
just kind of know what they're talking
53:06
about a little bit. But I loved it more
53:09
than I thought I would. I was surprised
53:10
in a lot of ways. It was not what I was
53:12
expecting. I'm glad you guys talked so
53:14
much about the art style because it it
53:17
knowing that it was 1993 was surprising
53:20
to me. It seemed like something you'd
53:21
see later on the internet, but like this
53:23
is this is the origins of it. So, it
53:25
sounds a lot like this is where this
53:27
kind of style became accepted and it
53:29
started and it influenced I mean reading
53:31
articles about Sam Keith in the last two
53:33
weeks. All of them say that everybody
53:35
says that he's an influence. It doesn't
53:37
matter what what your style is or what
53:39
your uh themes are. It sounds like you
53:42
pretty much couldn't be in comic books
53:44
in the last 20 or 30 years without
53:45
having Sam Keith as an influence.
53:47
>> Yeah, I would say that it's true.
53:49
>> And I mean, it's also like video game
53:52
artists and uh animators. Like I I think
53:55
if you go back to like World of Warcraft
53:57
art and look at some of Sam Wise's more
54:00
heavy metal art, um yes, he was
54:02
influenced by art in the 80s, but
54:04
there's definitely an element of Sam
54:05
Keith's rough, raw, uh like emotional
54:10
brush strokes and and sketching there.
54:12
So like one of the reasons I love
54:13
looking at art books for for video games
54:16
and and movies and TV shows and stuff
54:18
like that is because you get to see a
54:20
lot of the concept stuff, right? And you
54:22
get to see that influence. Go ahead.
54:24
>> Yeah. Um, MadiRaa.
54:26
>> Yeah,
54:26
>> Joe Mad. Yeah, Joe Mad is I again, you
54:29
don't want to say ripping off cuz he
54:31
isn't. He isn't ripping off. He has his
54:32
own style and especially now it's very
54:35
very much his style. You look at it, you
54:37
know it is, but there's definitely the
54:39
elements of the way he varies the
54:42
thickness of his black lines. Sometimes
54:44
the same line
54:45
>> to indicate shadow, to indicate a
54:48
distortion of the body. That's that's
54:50
very Sam Keith. Um, so yeah, I'm just as
54:53
Joe was saying that on my brain's like,
54:54
"Oh, oh, oh, yeah, no, that right." Uh,
54:58
so yeah, it is I think to to a certain
55:01
degree it is unfortunate that we didn't
55:04
get more of the Max, but at the same
55:06
time, I feel like he went out the way he
55:08
wanted to with that story. Like he got
55:10
to the point he wanted to get to and he
55:12
was done.
55:12
>> He finished the story. And then they
55:14
even went so far and and and we're we're
55:16
coming up on time here, but like the Max
55:18
got opted very early in the '90s, I
55:21
think it was '95, maybe '96, uh for an
55:24
animated series on Liquid TV on MTV,
55:28
when they were doing an adult animation
55:30
block, before Cartoon Network was doing
55:32
any of this stuff, before you know anime
55:36
was becoming more mainstream. And I'm
55:39
not just talking about like Dragon Ball
55:40
Z. I'm talking about like the darker
55:42
anime, the the more adultoriented anime
55:45
that deals with stuff like Tokyo Police
55:47
uh and other things like that uh before
55:49
they were popular. The Max got opted as
55:52
part of this to be turned into an
55:54
animated series with Keith on board. And
55:57
so it was maybe a little watered down
56:00
because of having to get through
56:01
television sensors, but the same
56:03
elements were there. And again, it was
56:07
successful. It was wildly successful for
56:10
NTV. Uh, it won an Annie award for best
56:14
animation the year that it debuted,
56:17
which a a lot of people forget, but like
56:20
then you go and look at other TV shows,
56:22
other animated shows, other animes that
56:24
then released uh from late 90s, early
56:28
2000s, and you see that gritty style,
56:31
that raw emotion, that that ability to
56:35
be unclean, to be fuzzy. And that's
56:38
because of the success of the Max
56:40
getting opted and Sam Keith's artwork
56:43
essentially being thrown in public eye
56:47
because at the time 1995
56:50
MTV was all the rage. Like it was it had
56:54
yes it had music videos still. I know a
56:56
novel concept. Rest in peace on TV. Um,
57:00
but it really was pushing like as a
57:02
place for independent artists and
57:04
creators to get stuff put out there that
57:07
they wouldn't otherwise. It was shows
57:10
like The Head and The Max were where Aon
57:13
Flux were pushed out there that wouldn't
57:15
have found a home otherwise on broadcast
57:18
television in North America at the very
57:20
least. Uh, I can't speak for the rest of
57:22
the world, but definitely Canada and and
57:24
the US for sure. If it wasn't for them,
57:27
those wouldn't have been seen. And how
57:30
much did that influence what came after?
57:32
How many cartoons came after? I mean,
57:35
let's go with even children's TV show.
57:37
Do you want to tell me that Rugrats and
57:40
A real monsters would have been a thing
57:42
had Sam Keith proven that an unpolished
57:45
art style couldn't be successful?
57:47
>> No, I I get where you're going with
57:49
that. I would not have thought of that
57:50
for Rugrats, but yeah, I see where
57:52
you're going
57:52
>> because it's the same thing.
57:53
>> Freaking cow. I mean, Cow and Chicken,
57:55
which is the thing he actually wrote. He
57:57
wrote the first episode of Cow and
57:58
Chicken because the guy who's doing Cow
58:00
and Chicken is his cousin.
58:01
>> Yeah.
58:02
>> So, David or whatever it
58:04
>> Yeah. And he So, he did him a favor and
58:06
wrote the first episode. And Cow and
58:09
Chicken is a weird show. It isn't the
58:11
max, but it's pretty weird. And I think
58:13
like 80% of the weird comes from Sam
58:15
Keith's writing of that first episode
58:17
because it sets a lot of the character.
58:18
Um,
58:19
>> do you think that the trend by the time
58:21
we got to 2005 or so of dark, gritty
58:24
reboots and gritty versions of
58:26
everything, do you think that kind of
58:27
has origins in some of Sam Keith's work?
58:29
>> It absolutely like without without
58:31
doubt. I'm not going to say that he's
58:32
the only reason for it. Um, but he is a
58:34
he is definitely a a contributing
58:36
factor. I would I would list him as
58:38
maybe a godfather of that at this point.
58:40
>> Yeah. I'm going to say this much. Um,
58:43
Sam Keith never wrote stories that were
58:44
grim and greedy for the sake of it.
58:46
>> No, they always had a purpose.
58:47
>> Awful thing. awful things happened in
58:49
their stories because they want he
58:51
wanted to talk about them and how one
58:53
dealt with them. So in a way a lot of
58:54
them miss the point. Uh but sometimes
58:58
missing the point is the way that things
59:00
become famous.
59:01
>> Uh a lot of people miss the point of
59:03
Dune which is don't listen to the
59:06
charismatic religious figure telling you
59:08
he has everything worked out and
59:10
everybody watches the Dune movies and is
59:12
like yeah Paul's right. This is the only
59:15
way. Like, no, that's not that's the
59:19
preface of the book tells you that you
59:21
shouldn't trust Paul and then people do.
59:23
Anyway, I feel like that for Sam Keith,
59:26
he didn't just put that stuff in there
59:28
to shock people and get them to read his
59:31
books. He put it in there because he was
59:33
deeply concerned with the mind and how
59:35
it dealt with trauma and how it dealt
59:37
with, you know, the chaos of when it
59:40
turns on it. But yeah, the idea that
59:42
he's not influential, he's not so
59:44
influential. I mean, the guy invented
59:46
the visual style book for uh Sandman,
59:50
>> when you watch the Sandman on, you know,
59:53
are they Netflix or are they Amazon? I
59:55
don't remember who's got them, but
59:56
>> whatever streaming service is on. When
59:58
you watch the live action,
59:59
>> when you watch that, uh, everything you
1:00:03
see is coming from a first principle
1:00:06
that he designed. Uh, the Corinthian,
1:00:09
that's a Sam Keith drawing. Like you you
1:00:12
do not The Corinthian doesn't show up in
1:00:14
a book, you know, that Sam Keith is an
1:00:16
in that that's just one of those things
1:00:18
to me. Uh, yeah. I just I feel like it
1:00:22
is you're you're absolutely correct in
1:00:23
that it is does influence things, but I
1:00:26
feel like a lot of times it's the wrong
1:00:27
me. Uh, people are if it if it's going
1:00:30
to be true to Sam, it would talk about
1:00:33
those things. It wouldn't just have them
1:00:35
there as set dressing. They're
1:00:37
important.
1:00:38
>> Mhm.
1:00:39
>> You know, they matter to the story
1:00:41
>> and in some cases that the point was not
1:00:44
missed and they are important to the
1:00:46
story.
1:00:46
>> That Batman movie is actually very
1:00:48
similar to a Sam Keith Batman story.
1:00:50
>> Yep. Because it deals with the effects
1:00:52
of trauma and dealing with it and why
1:00:54
he's making those choices. It actually
1:00:56
goes into it. Um, I would even argue
1:00:59
that the uh Superman Man of Steel is
1:01:03
regardless how you feel about it, tried
1:01:05
to get there. Um,
1:01:07
>> yeah.
1:01:07
>> You know,
1:01:08
>> I got to say too, you know what's a
1:01:09
surprise to me that there was never a
1:01:11
serious Sam Keith run on a Spider-Man.
1:01:15
Oh man, can you imagine at his prime
1:01:19
with, you know, his storytelling the
1:01:23
stuff right around and and I know it's
1:01:25
not everybody's favorite story, but
1:01:26
imagine him uh in the aftermath of uh
1:01:30
Brand New Day uh or in dealing with what
1:01:34
he currently like Peter's currently
1:01:35
dealing with in the comics with the uh
1:01:38
post Mary Jane fallout and uh everything
1:01:41
else there like the the stuff that's
1:01:42
happening in the new Venom comic.
1:01:44
Imagine diving into that cuz the new
1:01:45
Venom comic is it's not just Mary Jane
1:01:48
as Venom, it's also Eddie Brock as
1:01:51
Carnage and the trauma therein uh and
1:01:54
what that's like and and having your
1:01:56
world dismantled. And I was reading it
1:01:58
and I was like I could just imagine what
1:02:01
this being dove deeper into would do for
1:02:05
these characters if somebody like Sam
1:02:07
Keith were were telling the story,
1:02:11
right? like it. Yeah, we could talk
1:02:13
about this all day long. The the end of
1:02:17
it is really that Sam Keith as an artist
1:02:19
and storyteller was very influential on
1:02:22
what came okay to talk about in comics
1:02:27
in publication in in entertainment. And
1:02:30
had it not been for Image Comics and the
1:02:32
Max and him and him working his way
1:02:35
through and knowing the system and what
1:02:36
he contributed to it, we wouldn't have
1:02:39
the things we have now. Again, I a hill
1:02:41
I will die on is I do not think the
1:02:43
absolute universe in DC exists without
1:02:47
Sam Keith crawling, right? Like I I
1:02:50
think that these are all things that are
1:02:52
are we can attribute some influence from
1:02:55
him on
1:02:57
without him, we wouldn't have such
1:02:59
wonderful things. Um but I think that's
1:03:02
going to do it for today. Unless there's
1:03:03
any other parting thoughts either of you
1:03:04
want to give.
1:03:05
>> I've talked that out. Uh, I liked, like
1:03:07
I said, I liked it more than I thought I
1:03:09
would, and I'm gonna probably continue
1:03:11
to read the rest. So, uh, if anybody out
1:03:13
there is happily listening without being
1:03:15
that much of a comic book person like
1:03:17
me, uh, give it a shot because you never
1:03:19
know.
1:03:20
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1:04:08
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