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Our listeners wanted to know about the legacy of the Troll raid. We've been killing those poor saps a lot -- just about every expansion in either raid or dungeon form, in fact, to the extent that "the Troll raid" is almost a meme. Midnight may be bringing us another chance to murder a whole bunch more Trolls, with rumors swirling about islands off the coast near Zul'Aman -- which, incidentally, was the Troll raid for The Burning Crusade.
We start off with a brief recap of the myriad of times in the past when we defeated one branch of trolls or another in a variety of settings. Of course, with such a broad topic, the rabbit hole goes deep. Matt and Joe discuss the Loa, notable troll heroes like Zul'jin, and the future of Trollkind. Since we're going into Midnight without a Troll raid as such, they also speculate a little on how it could come to pass before the expansion is out.
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0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round table free form discussion about lore in your favorite media. I am your host Joe
0:15
Perez, one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch. And I've got my marvelous co-host with me today, Matt
0:20
Rossy. How you doing today, Matt? I'm like not wearing shoes and I have extremely large teeth now.
0:28
Well, uh, if you're confused by that intro, you're going to be confused probably not very much longer. We are
0:34
going to be talking about troll raids. Uh, this was inspired by a question sent in by our friend Patrick here. Uh, so
0:41
thank you very much for that, Patrick. If you guys at home have a question for this or any of our podcasts, I do want
0:46
to remind you, you can go ahead and send it into podcastwatch.com.
0:52
We just ask that you specify the show that it is for and the subject line as well as any special pronunciation of your name. If you want to discord, you
0:58
can also do so. We have the Discord uh channels for the Q and podcast questions channel. Same rules apply. If you are a
1:04
Patreon subscriber on Discord, we have the Patreon Q and podcast questions channel set aside uh as a way of saying
1:10
thank you for helping us keep the lights on and we tend to look there first. So yeah, uh Pat Patrick asked or said, "I
1:17
know that there's a long-standing joke about many WoW expansions having a troll raid. I realized recently that I don't
1:22
necessarily know what they all are. would love to hear a breakdown from y'all about the troll raids over the years. Uh, and Matt and I were talking
1:29
about about this a little bit beforehand. And, uh, he made a request. So, I'm going to go ahead and turn this
1:34
over to Matt. Okay. Um, basically, I'm going to try and guess uh, based on what I can
1:42
remember rather than, you know, just say I know all of them off the top of my head. I'm going to try and and do it.
1:48
I'm actually going to try and pull it off. Um, I'm also going to include in one instance, I'm going to include
1:55
things that are not actually raids, but were raids before or didn't make it into
2:03
the raid phase and ended up as dungeons. Um, so I'm going to start with the original World of Warcraft. The only
2:10
raid, the only troll raid in original WoW is Zulgarub, which was a 20 player
2:17
raid at the time and then became a I I believe they they changed it down to
2:23
like 10 at one point, but I don't know what it currently is in terms of how I think it's probably just as many people
2:28
as you want to bring in at this point, but that's the first one that I can remember. And that was the one that actually that was our first exposure to
2:35
the Xandelar because you actually teamed up with them to raid Zulgarab. Um there
2:40
was also uh Zularok and the sunken temple of Atalhakar, but they were both
2:46
dungeons. They were just very big dungeons. Mhm. Um in Burning Crusade, the only raid the
2:52
only um troll raid that I can remember is Zulan. Um, I don't even think they had a troll dungeon in uh, Burning
2:58
Crusade, aside from Zulleman, which was at the time it was the it was a 10-player raid. Um, in Wrath of the Lich
3:06
King, there's no specific raid. There was supposed to be um, Gundra, which is
3:12
a dungeon in in Wrath was intended to be a raid. And what ended up happening was
3:19
they were working on Nex Ramos at the same time. Nex Ramis took longer to get
3:25
ready than they intended and since they were bringing Nex Ramis back from
3:31
vanilla WoW, it ended up just dominating a lot of the development time. So, two
3:36
dungeons that exist in the game in Wrath as dungeons. Um, oh, bloody heck. Uh,
3:42
Guard Pinnacle and Gundarak ended up as fiveman dungeons. They were supposed to
3:47
be raids. Mhm. Um, so there's no actual raid for
3:53
trolls in um, Wrath of Lich King. In Cataclysm, again, I would say there's no
3:58
specifically troll raid. Uh, again, there are dungeons uh, because they brought back uh, Zulan and Zulgrub as as
4:06
dungeons in that expansion. Uh, you so you could go back to these raids that had already been established and five
4:12
mana. Um, but there's no raid as such. Uh after Cataclysm, I believe the next
4:18
one is Missandaria. Missandaria does have a troll raid sort of in that
4:25
the the the aisle of thunder had a a raid and that raid is Mou at the end, but but
4:32
Xandelari up front. Um so I'd say I'd say that counts as a troll dun a troll raid because they're they're like the
4:37
first several bosses. Um for um I'm going to say the next one is is Warlords
4:43
of Dranor. Uh, no troll raid. At least not that I can remember. Come in and and correct me. But I'm going to say for
4:50
right now trying to remember this. There's no troll raid in uh Warlords of
4:55
Dranor for the reason that there were no trolls living on Dranor. Like the trolls are from Azeroth. Um, and we didn't
5:02
really have we only we only had one dungeon on Azeroth in that raid. Uh, I mean in that expansion, which was uh the
5:09
revamped uh Blackwing Spire. So, Black Rockspire, sorry. Uh, so yeah,
5:17
after that, um, then you got Legion. Uh, I I feel like there there should be, but
5:23
I I don't think there is actually a troll raid in League. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but I can't remember one that
5:29
I would call a troll. Um, after Legion, you've got Battle for Azeroth. Uh, I
5:35
think again you couldn't really point to a to a troll raid in uh Battle for
5:40
Azeroth Shadowlands. I mean, there's one raid that has a troll who kind of
5:46
figures in it, but he's not he's just dead. Uh, and he's not even like the major guy. That's Gash. Um, and and uh
5:54
Kethos. He's just barely noticeable. It's Zuljin. Um, and you only get to see
6:00
him like for a little bit. So, yeah. Um, but I mean there's a troll presence, but
6:05
I would say no troll raid. Uh, and then we've go to from Shadowlands, you go to um, Dragon Flight. No dra no troll raid
6:13
in Dragon Flight. And I don't think we've got I mean there's no war within
6:18
dungeon that's specifically a troll dungeon. So yeah, that that would be I would say that the last one we had was
6:24
was basically um it was it was uh Throne of Thunder
6:29
really. I think that's the last raid, last actual raid that they have. So, am I how you think I'm wrong here? I mean,
6:36
95% correct. The only one that I think is and this one is uh up for debate would be the battle for Darlore because
6:43
that's a good point. That's that's actually a good point because they're there. Yeah. You are you are literally either
6:49
defending or raiding the Xandelari troll capital city. Yeah. No. Yeah. That you know what, that is
6:55
fair. If you're if you're a horde, they're not the they're not your enemies, but that's still a it's still a
7:02
troll capital city that you're that's the raid takes place in. So, yeah, I would totally give you that one. You're right. I missed that one.
7:08
Yeah, but I think you I think you nailed all of them. Um and uh even the ones that I think most people don't think of.
7:14
I think that the ones that most people think of uh in terms of like the big
7:20
raids uh or the ones that started the joke that there must always be a troll raid are Zulu Gurub and Zulaman. And I
7:27
think we should probably go through a little bit of a deep deeper dive through those uh because I do think that at
7:34
least one of them will potentially be relevant coming up into Midnight. Um we'll save that one for last. You want
7:40
to do we want to start talking about Zul Gurub? Uh because I think that is probably Yeah, we could talk about that
7:46
one first. Right. It's the it's a temple city located in the northeastern uh part
7:52
portion of Stranglethorn Veil. Um it's just over the the mountains from uh
7:57
Karazhan. Like if you were in Karazan, you can literally just go over a mountain and there it is. And it is also the former capital of the
8:04
Gurabashi Empire. uh which is very very important uh because about 1,500 years
8:11
before the opening of the dark portal before orcs ever made their way to our land uh the Guraboshi Empire Gur sorry
8:19
Gurabashi Empire uh was part of a had a massive civil war uh where a bunch of
8:26
priests known as the Adelai called forth an avatar of an ancient blood god uh who
8:32
would then plague not only gameplay servers but players players uh and trolls for many many years to come. Uh
8:40
one known as Hakkar the Soul Flareer. Uh and weirdly enough, in order to talk
8:45
about Hakkar, we're probably going to have to talk about uh Sunken Temple and maybe Zulfurak as well.
8:50
I I think Yeah, a little bit. Do you want to do you want to kind of branch into that a little bit or let me let me explain who Hikar is
8:56
real quick first? You do that and then I'll come in. Yep. So, Hakar is Aloa, right? It is it is a
9:03
god in in uh as in fact all lowa are but it is a malevolent and destructive
9:08
force. Uh it was worshiped by the Gurabashi trolls which were very warlike. Um and it is known as the lower
9:16
of blood to inside of the troll pantheon. Um it's blood itself is also
9:24
something that can be used to make powerful spells, bindings or potions. uh
9:31
and actually is relevant uh and something that does come up uh which Matt will talk about in a a moment when
9:37
we start talking about uh Jamalan the prophet. Um, but we at one point, this
9:44
is where we learn that Loa are essentially wild gods because they think
9:49
that the Gurbashi Empire defeated Hakkar at one point. They beat the Atali. they
9:56
they destroyed uh Hakkar, but when Cataclysm rolls around and we start, you
10:02
know, gearing up to to like start poking in there, one of the reasons we get sent there is because, well, we hear that
10:08
Hakar is back. And that, my friends, is a dangerous dangerous thing because we
10:13
didn't know it was Aloa at the time. We only knew it as a god. uh and that the god had been had been being returned and
10:21
would be potentially extraordinarily dangerous for us because those around it, those who ingest its blood, those
10:28
that are just in its vicinity, uh become berserkers essentially. Uh if you played
10:33
Warcraft 3 and you played uh troll axemen, I think it was um you had a
10:40
berserk button that you could push and it was essentially taking on the aspect of Hakkar. You know that his blood lust
10:48
that was what you were activating at the time, not the spell blood lust, mind you, uh but basically just kind of
10:54
taking that lowest power in and of itself. And I'll I'll turn it over here so that Matt can talk a little bit about Sunken Temple because Hakkar's blood is
11:01
tied there as well as far as storytelling goes. Yep. Um, Hakar is a interesting character because he's he is, as Joe
11:09
pointed out, he is a a Loa and he is a Loa of blood and and the use of blood.
11:16
He has rivals amongst the both Aloa and other spirits. Um, one of those rivals
11:22
being uh the the old gods who also use blood and even there were if you if you
11:31
remember when you were playing Battle for Azeroth there's a whole thing about the blood trolls and the blood trolls serve not Hakkar uh they serve um
11:40
disease guy just just Gahun Gahun. Yeah. And what's really weird
11:45
about the the the interaction with Gahun is that Hakkar is mentioned when they're talking about it, the the ritual that
11:52
the the the blood the blood trolls who were serving Kahun are using is originally Hkar's.
11:58
Mhm. They're they are using it. They are in essence. Hakkar is a malevolent force,
12:06
but he's a natural force. One one thing I should mention is that none of the Titanic records have mention of Hakkar either.
12:12
Yeah. No, not a one of them. Um, Hakkar for whatever he is is, you know, his
12:17
relationship to blood is one that draws upon the darker aspects of it, but
12:23
natural darker aspects like nature read in blood and claw. He is not what he
12:29
does is not corruption the way the old god stuff is corruption. Uh, and so when
12:34
the the blood trolls were coming up in Battle for Azeroth, Hakkar's not involved in it because he's not related
12:42
to them. Um, but that being said, it doesn't make him kind or caring. Misala
12:49
wasn't working with the old gods, but he wasn't nice either. Um, Hakkar is very much about consuming people, using their
12:56
their spilled blood to fuel his power. Um, and in a weird sort of way, what we
13:01
see in sunken temple and and not just sunken temple because we go to sunken temple after we go to the temple of
13:07
Zularak and we go to Zularak after we've been to the hinterlands and we go back
13:14
and forth to a lot of different places. Um, both the the Gurubashi and Ammani
13:19
trolls are involved in this. Um there's there's a hammer you needed to get uh
13:25
back in vanilla to even ultimately go to Zulgar that drops in in the hinterlands.
13:33
Uh Joe was just mentioned Jamalan the prophet. Jamalan the prophet was a figure in the hinterlands. He was he was
13:39
an Ammani up in the hinterlands but he had this this mallet that you you needed to go to ring a a gong in Zularok to
13:48
kill a hydra. But during that whole process is when you first run into a
13:54
spirit that is a a spirit of a um a winged serpent. And that winged serpent
14:00
and its eggs lead you ultimately to sunken temple. Mhm. And when you go to sunken temple
14:06
with the egg, you find that Hakkar, the sunken temple was smashed into the
14:11
waters by the green dragon flight because the worship of Hakar was turning the Gurubashi into violent bloodthirsty
14:19
lunatics. The the berserkers Joe mentioned, they were all becoming that in one way or another
14:25
to feed to in particular to feed Hakar who uh demanded in for the power that he
14:30
granted them demanded more and more souls. So these sacrifices that the trolls were making were going directly
14:36
to him, which we now know is him collecting. Uh but that's a whole other a whole
14:42
other thing. Please continue. Sorry. Basically, it's how it's it's one of the ways that he managed to circumvent his death in the first place because he
14:48
didn't have to go back uh to to the you know to the Winter Queen's court. He he
14:54
could just use the enema right there. And that's something that when you go to
15:00
Zulgar to the first time when it's a raid, he's already subverted the Xandelari who were sent to stop him.
15:07
Several Xandelari priests were sent to Zulgar to stop him. They all got turned
15:14
by Hakkar. He basically convinced them, "No, it's much better if you just do what I say and I'll I'll give you my
15:20
power and all you have to do is is kill pesky things for me and that it's all great." So the Xandelar were now like we
15:27
don't we're down our champions. They went in to stop him and now they're all either dead or turned. Now we have to
15:33
work with just any random person who shows up. So that's the first time you meet the Xandelars is because um the
15:41
biggest problem they were afraid of wasn't even Hakkar. They because originally the Gurabashi Empire was was
15:48
basically founded on the site of the trolls that had the unfortunate
15:54
experience of raising a Chthrai and that was a whole deal with that knife that we
16:00
know about. Um, you know, she's the villain of the most recent expansion and
16:05
the next one. Um, so we're going to have a lot of possible resonance right there.
16:11
But what Hakkar was doing was basically more immediately worse. You know, it was
16:16
it was it was much worse in an immediate sense. It was not much worse in terms of a cosmic sense, but he was definitely a
16:22
big problem. So, they sent in people to kill him. In so doing, one of the things that we find out is that Lowa can be
16:29
bound in a way that other spirits kind of can't. Lowa. There's We don't know if
16:37
this is because the Xandelari just have really good knowledge of binding magic, which is entirely possible. But
16:44
regardless, when Hakkar falls, after we've killed our way through the the
16:50
subverted Xandelari champions and we finally get to fight Hakkar and Hakar
16:55
falls, it looks to us like we killed him. He he's a giant monster wind serpent. When you see him, when you see
17:00
him in the sunken temple, he's a skeleton. and you fail to prevent him
17:07
from drawing upon enough soul power to to re reincarnate himself as a physical being, which is the big problem we're
17:13
having in Zulgar. You finally go in, you kill him, it looks like he's done, but
17:19
his servant there, uh, oh, I can't remember his name. Do you know the guy I'm talking about? The guy who shows up
17:24
again in Cataclysm. Oh, it's gonna Jindo. Jindo. Yes. Oh, man. I'm having a
17:31
terrible day on names. uh Jindo, who is essentially his high priest, uh he
17:37
escapes and comes back later and he interrupts
17:43
Hakkar's attempt to return. And I believe at this point he's kind of working for the Xandelar. Um because the
17:49
Xandelar at this point are are working alongside they're they're starting to
17:55
reach out to the Mou. They haven't actually contacted them yet, but they're like, "We got to the the Gurabbashi and
18:00
the and the Ammani. You guys have been divided too long. You've been off on yourselves and and looks what's
18:06
happening to you. The Gurbashi have been pushed back to one city. So have the Ammani. You guys have lost all the
18:13
territory you had. You once ruled the world before that big monster guy uh showed up and you had to use that weird
18:20
magic knife uh to try and stop it." And this so they're like they're making a
18:26
deal with like every troll tribe they can find. The ones up in in North Rend, the one in Zrock, the ones everywhere
18:34
like and the only trolls who like basically say no to this are the dark spear because the dark spear are like
18:41
more afraid of of Hakkar and and anything coming out of this stuff than anybody else. And also they're aware
18:49
that the way that the Xandelari and the people working with the Xandelari, especially the Ammani, the way they are
18:57
treating the Lowa is beyond disrespectful. And we see that when we go into Zolar as a dungeon, Hakkar is
19:05
completely dominated by Jindo, who is using him like a battery. Mhm.
19:11
And this is going to come up again because we're going to talk about another raid. Um, but Jindo is using
19:16
Hakkar like a battery and ultimately Hakar you actually end up helping Hakkar
19:23
to kill Jindo so that you you know to win you have to you essentially free
19:29
Hakkar and he ends up coming back later uh reincarnated or or reincarnating. I
19:35
don't think he's actually fully reincarnated yet, but when you go to um you when you when you're doing the the
19:42
quest line to figure out what's been going on with Mizalla and uh oh, and I
19:47
can't remember the name of the guy Baron Baron, you know, Juan Sami.
19:52
Juan Sami. There you go. Rain finally said when you're doing those quests, Hakkar shows up and he's like, "I'm
19:58
back." And you're like, "Oh, oh, bloody heck. He's going to get himself back to the mortal world again." But we managed to stop that. But the point being that
20:05
Hakkar is very dangerous, very powerful. And in in a way, it's because of Hakar
20:11
that a lot of stuff starts to go bad afterwards. Um, which I think kind of leads us to
20:16
talking about um, Zul Zulan, which do do you want to go on that one, Joe, or you want? So, let's talk Yeah, I'll talk about
20:22
Zulan a little bit. So, Zulaman is probably one of, in my opinion, the more I don't want to say the more important,
20:28
but uh probably the one that is going to be most closely tied to what's happening here in uh our current uh trying to
20:36
think of how to phrase this. Our our current uh upcoming expansion, sorry. Uh
20:43
during it goes way way back. So, Zulleman uh was a temple city that served as the capital of the Ammani
20:49
tribe. Uh it's located in Qualas. uh or northern Lorderon uh and is very very
20:56
close to where Silver Moon City is. Uh way way way back when during the time of
21:03
the Air and Troll War, the Archer forces were uh essentially led by a Cathrax by
21:09
the name of Kithrix uh in which they were you know raising all manners of
21:14
hell. The Xandelari rallied the troll tribes against this new foe uh and then also summoned the Lowa to fight along
21:21
their side. uh tearing through the Akiri ranks uh and then eventually defeating
21:26
Kithrix uh forcing it to retreat. The Ammani trolls then tracked Kithrich's
21:31
trail to the far northeastern woodlands uh which then like their entire tribe
21:37
and I do mean the entire tribe of Ammani trolls cut a path through the unending
21:43
mass of the Akira guards uh and then launched themselves in a suicide attack
21:48
against Kithrix uh and anything that remained loyal to it. Uh only a tiny
21:53
faction of the trolls survived. Uh and they did manage to kill Cthrax, which is
21:59
not a small feat. Uh the the Kthrai uh that we've seen in the past, they took
22:05
out a keeper. They took out a keeper and his forces like literally Tier had to
22:11
essentially sacrifice himself to defeat the one. And even that didn't keep it dead for long. Uh yet in this case, the
22:18
Ammani troll did it. and the Ammani troll did it with gusto. Uh so then on
22:23
top of the site where they had killed uh Kithrix, they established a new settlement and this would actually be
22:29
what became uh the sprawling temple city known as Zulleman. Uh and with the
22:35
Kthrai gone, the Akir no longer willing to fight. Uh the troll were able to
22:40
basically clean things up and then sort of push them off to their uh out of
22:46
their their lands and keep them free. Uh thousands of years after that, however, uh this is when the high elves were
22:52
first exiled and landed in Lordderon. Uh and this is where they first met uh the
22:58
forest trolls who viewed them as defilers of their homeland. The trolls
23:03
did, mind you. Um so at the time of the founding of Qualas, the Ammani Empire
23:09
being the most powerful empire in the Eastern Kingdoms and holding much of the northern Leron territory went to war
23:16
essentially with the high elves. Uh eventually the high elves joined the forces with the humans of Aerator or
23:21
Arathor, excuse me. Uh defeated the forest trolls in what was a massive battle. Now keep in mind the trolls,
23:28
even though this is thousands of years later, they're not at full strength because they lost so many trolls. They
23:35
would have had so many more warriors to fight with. But the combined effort of the high elves and the humans uh sort of
23:42
caused the troll empire to to kind of come to an end. uh the Armani would never recover enough to expand their
23:49
lands beyond the home province of Zulleon, but they continued to sort of
23:54
harry the elves and humans for thousands of years. So, as Silver Moon itself was constructed over the sacred uh site of
24:02
troll grounds uh which the elves basically made themselves even more enemies of the Ammani, uh the Ammani
24:09
seethe behind their wall in their city of Zulleman. Yeah. And you can see the residue of
24:14
this. If you look at like the hinterlands or the the western and eastern plainlands, you find troll
24:22
temples and buildings that are, you know, now mostly unused or only used by
24:28
like a a remnant of what was once uh so yeah, and you can go all the way down into uh south of the hinterlands. Um
24:35
there's actually the Arai Highlands. There's trolls there, too. Yeah. And that's what you're looking at
24:42
is the remnants of the troll empire, the Ammani troll empire. There's trolls in the the mountains
24:47
surrounding uh Iron Forge, too, if you go looking. Just throwing it out there. The winter bark. They're actually related to the uh Gundra trolls. They're
24:55
winter. But yeah, and for that matter, then you start going south again and once you get past um Stormwind, you
25:03
start hitting troll stuff again. Like you start hitting the Gurabashi trolls. So you're looking at the remnants of two
25:09
empires that were formed after the Xandelari during the war against the the uh old gods and their their Kthrai
25:15
minions and it's the Akir as well and it yeah it's there's a lot to it. So yeah, Zolomon's a pretty important place just
25:21
as a nexus of that kind of thing. And there's even more because this is all before the second war ever happened, right? So during the second war uh they
25:30
this is where a particular figure of troll history will be born uh or at
25:36
least come to power uh which is Zuljin. Uh the Ammani trolls joined the old
25:43
horde during the second war under Zuljin's leadership. Uh they did so to in fight to to in part to fight against
25:49
the high els who had joined the alliance of Leron. Uh which makes sense right? The horde the old horde shows up.
25:56
They're waging war on humans, which helped the elves basically decimate what was left of the Ammani. Zuljun's looking
26:01
for revenge. Here are these guys. Well, they're green like us. Uh, kind of. Uh,
26:07
they seem to have beef with the alliance. We can use this to our advantage. Let's go for it. Um, after
26:13
the Ammani, several other forest trolls joined the Horde as well. Uh, as well and were absolutely invaluable to the
26:20
Horde. However, Zuljin disappeared after the end of the war and the defeat of the
26:26
Horde. In truth, he was captured by the high elves uh and then freed by Anamani
26:32
war party, retreating into Zulaman to recuperate. Now, Zuljen you you may also
26:37
recognize as the one-armed troll, the only troll to not have regenerated his
26:42
limb that we know of. Trolls have incredible regeneration power. Um yeah, if they're still alive, they
26:48
should they don't nothing is permanent if they are still alive. They can regrow
26:53
eyes, legs, everything. So, not only was he defeated, scarred,
26:58
uh man, like completely decimated to a point where no other troll had really ever been that we know of uh unable to
27:05
regenerate from. He's seething in Zullean. uh he's willing waiting and and
27:12
binding his time in order to uh try to get revenge. Uh which happens in Burning
27:18
Crusade. Uh so planning to take revenge against Qualas. Uh this is where the
27:23
blood elves and the horde were busy fighting in Outland. Uh he basically had
27:28
his champions harness the power of the Lowa uh with the help of Hex Lord Malacross. Now this is where Matt was
27:34
talking about. But we can see Loa can be bound uh or at least used in a way that other you know spirits or gods don't
27:42
seem to be able to. Uh this is where they were taking on massive
27:47
uh aspects of the various uh wow I cannot remember all of them off the top
27:52
of my head but we had the the bear guy the the the phoenix guy. Uh the who what
27:58
were the other ones Matt? Um, there was the Firehawk boss, the bear boss, the I
28:04
want to say um I can't remember there's a third one that I I know is somehow snake related. I think he's like the
28:10
last guy. No, it's Malacrass when you fight Malacrass. Yeah, he's very much snake coded. Yeah. Um there is a fourth one and I
28:17
cannot remember. I know that there was Firehawk Guy. I know that there was Bear Guy. I remember Bear Guy. You go up and
28:25
you get Firehawk Guy and Firehawk Guy is really hard. Um, and then I remember you
28:31
get to Malacrass and you you fight Snake Eye. There's another one um off by itself, but I can't remember what it
28:38
does. I can't remember which one it is. Yeah, if you give me a second, I can look it up. Yeah. Well, regardless, uh, so
28:44
essentially gathering power and trying to use these aspects uh, powers to
28:49
bolster their own strength. Uh, and we cut to a point where Burning Crusade, we
28:54
we catch wind of this, right? um not wanting to fight a war on two fronts, the Horde essentially uh sent a
29:01
task force of their strongest champions, at least in story, it's the Horde that are sent to do this uh to kill the
29:07
Ammani leadership. Uh at the entrance to uh Zullean, we we get a various amount
29:12
of quests, whether it's stealing treasures, uh but also going through and uh defeating the leadership and which we
29:20
are able to do because they're not at full power again. Uh, in Burning Crusade, you actually make your way
29:25
through defeating all of the different warlords. Uh, Akalon, by the way. Thank you. Ackleson's the one with the lightning.
29:32
The lynx. There was the Lynx one. No, the Akalon's a big bird. There's the bird. The the There's the
29:38
bird. The the the links is Galai, I believe. No, Jenny is the fire one. It must be Hanzi then.
29:44
Yeah, it's Hazi. Lozi is the leg. There you go. Uh, but then we make our way through. We actually wind up killing
29:50
Zul Jin. Uh, and interestingly enough, that's enough to keep Zullean quiet for
29:57
a while. Uh, at least until the Xandelari show up. Uh, the Xandelari
30:02
show up and they were like, "Hey, what if we were to go ahead and try to revitalize things?" Uh, and then enters
30:09
uh a forest troll by the name of warlord uh Dakara, I believe is how you
30:14
pronounce it, who uh starts taking over and uh takes on the role of the uh
30:19
essentially leadership of the Amad. Um yeah, it's it's very very important here
30:25
because again it turns to Cataclysm where this starts happening and the Ammani that are left
30:32
are trying to essentially reach out to the other troll tribes and are trying desperately to get aid to get everybody
30:39
joined back under under them with the Xandelari backing them. Um, this is where Vulgun comes in with the dark
30:46
spear and he actually declines the offer to join with the other trolls. Knowing
30:52
what their the Ammania were like, not wanting to deal with the Xandelari, uh, he actually instead sides with the
30:59
ranger general of of Silver Moon, Hdrron, Brightwing, and the Farstriders to counter the threat to fight against
31:06
this new empire that's rising, the Xandelari. Um, and in turn, Helderron
31:12
calls upon Verissa Windrunner and her rangers to join the battle. And the three uh are actually like you can
31:18
actually there's a whole quest line where they're planning and they're they're working together to try to defeat the uh the Zullean uh Xandelari
31:27
uprising. Uh so, and we should point out something. Go ahead. Because during this time of
31:33
the Andelari are you know reaching out to the other tribes. It's not this is
31:38
not King Rastakan's idea. This is the work of Zul who is a prophet. Zuul means
31:44
great in troll. Zul Jyn's basically his name was great chief. Jyn is chief. Uh
31:52
Zuul is great. Zuul the prophet is l just calling himself great. I'm great
31:57
the shaman. and he it was his idea to to
32:02
make these deals with these other tribes and try to reunite and regain the Zandelari power. It was doing this that
32:09
Zul learned what they were doing what what had been
32:14
done to Hakkar and Zulgar and what was being done to the to Lowa inside Zulan.
32:22
Yeah. This is when he's on the Golden Fleet, right? Where he takes the Golden Fleet and starts going around the world.
32:27
Mhm. saying this the island's gonna sink, bad stuff's coming. Which then ties into the Xandelia presence in Mr.
32:34
and thus their appearance in the Throne of Thunder raid because well he wanted to
32:40
Yeah. He wanted to renew ties with the Mou. Yep. And he was talking about there was a big earthquake and he was kind of
32:47
overselling it. It it was more like a slow sinking. But Zul is pro he's
32:52
basically stepping out and saying nightmare disasters are coming. We have to conquer as much land as we can away
32:58
from, you know, from Xandelar because Xandelar is sinking. And to be fair, the
33:04
blood swamp in in in Xandelar was sinking, but it was sinking very slowly.
33:10
It wasn't like Atlantis. It was just becoming a swamp. And to be fair, his visions were not wrong, right? Like he did have a gift of
33:18
prophecy or a gift of the visions. Um, he just knew how to manipulate them. like years ago when he he warned King
33:25
Rafasticon of the terrible Cataclysm uh which you know he saw a great armored
33:31
dragon clenching the world in its ferocious jaws sound like what happened in Cataclysm when Deathwing returned cuz
33:36
it sure does right yeah absolutely it's not that was wrong it's just that he knew
33:42
he knew how to play his audience for he knew how to play his audience and also he was listening to people or not
33:48
people but he was listening to things that you really shouldn't be listening Um, so in a way it's the whole thing
33:54
like you know they actually call him at one point I think burdened by prophecies of dark times is how they describe him.
34:01
And so when he was doing all this stuff he
34:06
eventually when we go into um Mr. like before we even get there at the end
34:14
of Cataclysm, you go into into Wrath of Lich King and you go up to to Gundra and
34:19
the whole deal about about the entire zone is that it's basically under siege
34:24
from the scourge. And so in desperation, the the the Gundra trolls aren't just
34:33
binding their Lowa the way that they did in Zulan. They're eating them. They're
34:38
literally stealing all the power from Aloa and putting it in their own bodies.
34:44
They're they're taking it one step further. And it it causes a rebellion among the Loa because Aloa like they're
34:50
going to destroy us. They're killing us to try and save themselves from from this scourge. And uh I forget the the
34:56
the mammoth Loa's name, but he blows himself up to keep them from getting
35:03
him. He takes out a huge chunk of the zone and the the the wind
35:09
the mammoth literally named it Mammoth. Mammoth. Okay. And the wind serpent one
35:16
who pretty much the exact same model as car by the way. Uh and they actually use that model again in in a dungeon here
35:24
too. That the jaw the prophet Therenja uh uses a very similar model to Hakkar
35:31
when he takes on his full serpent form. uh he's there's all this stuff going on which involves when you finally go to
35:37
Gundra they're the they're just it's revealed that they are literally consuming their own gods. They're
35:44
consuming the lowa to try and defeat the scourge essentially trading the death of
35:50
their culture for the death of their people. They're like we we'll we'll let our gods die hoping we get to keep
35:56
surviving. And all the the what they're doing to do it, the magic they're using
36:02
comes from Zuul who learned it from uh you the alliance with the Ammani who
36:08
themselves probably got it from some older source. And it's just it's kind of
36:13
nuts because it's very similar to what was going on in in Zulgarov as well. Uh it's almost exactly what Jindo was
36:19
doing. Uh so yeah, it's and this is something that comes up again and again with the the trolls is there's always
36:26
this balance between them and the lowa and the balance can be heavily skewed.
36:31
What the uh the the the the Gundra uh Winter Trolls did is it's like an it's
36:38
like a horror show to other troll tribes. It's like you know you this is the thing you don't do. You don't eat
36:44
your gods. And that's exactly what they were doing. I mean, you look at Solomon, they were binding themselves to their
36:51
gods, but they weren't eating them. But they took it a lot further up in Gundra because they had, you know, they
36:57
literally had the scourge coming over like their giant terrace walls and seizing their keeps. And, you know, it
37:05
just it's a it's a nightmare sequence for them. And that's one of the things I
37:10
think that I think that that's one of the things Zul saw. He saw that that was going to happen. And by the time
37:16
Cataclysm comes around, uh he's just finally lost it. So that's how we get
37:22
into M of um and the the throne of thunder. Uh we don't actually meet Zul
37:28
yet, but he sends the Golden Fleet out. Joe, you mentioned it before. You want to talk about the Golden Fleet?
37:33
So the Golden Fleet is essentially So we talked about King Rostakon and him
37:41
being Zul being the prophet to the king. What w up happening is Zuul kept going to the king and telling him, "Here are
37:48
my terrible visions." over and over and over and over again. And eventually King
37:53
Rosakhan just kind of got tired of it. Uh, and he's like, "Fine, listen. You
37:59
say that the world is going to end, that we're going to sink into the ocean, that the Xandelari need to find a new land to
38:05
call their own. Fine. you can go ahead and take my biggest and fastest ships,
38:11
go and gather some forces and start heading out into the world. So
38:16
essentially, he browbeat him into giving him the golden fleet or this case the
38:23
royal fleet. Um, and this is where that fleet started going out into the world
38:30
and making contact with all the various different troll races, all the different
38:36
tribes, uh, the Sanfury trolls, the the Ammani,
38:41
uh, the the Dar, the Gurabashi, anything left, anything
38:48
uh, of of the remnants. That's was what he was doing. and he was going to these various places and not making like a big
38:56
deal of it. Like they weren't, for lack of a better term, you didn't hear reports of Alliance sailors or horde
39:01
sailors were saying, "Oh yeah, we saw this giant fleet of golden ships pull up and they're all armed by or manned by
39:08
trolls." Uh, no, he was being pretty quiet about it, going where the Alliance
39:14
and the Horde were not. Uh, possibly by his gift of prophecy, possibly he's just
39:19
a really good tactician. Uh, but he would always go in, make his contact,
39:24
learn what he needed to learn in exchange, teach them how to do maybe something that he learned that maybe
39:29
they shouldn't learn in the first place, uh, and then got out of there with whatever knowledge that he needed. Now,
39:35
why is this important? It's important because a lot of the things he was doing almost seems like a smoke screen. He
39:41
didn't really ultimately care about these other troll tribe. No, but by giving them power and sort of kicking
39:49
the hornets's nest a little bit, they're great distraction. And then he can go do
39:55
things like make his way to the uh to the the p miss through Miss Mandaria to the the wandering or not the wandering
40:01
islands, but going to Pandaria itself. Uh going through and making contact with the Mou, learning about things like
40:09
which the Mou have a very intense relationship with. They understood it more than we did. Uh even though they
40:17
gave it a more physical form than its ethereal nature in the Shadowlands.
40:22
They're adept at manipulating it and harvesting it in using it and him making
40:27
contact with them and trying to make nice with them and give them back. Hey,
40:33
remember when you you guys had the Thunder King and he was in charge of everything? What if we help you get
40:38
that? What what do you give us in return for that? And then you wind up going through the the the throne of thunder
40:44
raid and most of it is you fighting trolls, forces under uh Zuul's command
40:51
that are essentially doing his bidding, biting time. Even the because I think the it's the Xandelari council that you
40:57
fight there as well. These are are leaders of their respective uh aspects, whether they're uh priests or mages or
41:04
warriors that have chosen to follow Zuul uh and are working with him for, you
41:10
know, their glorious purpose of a new Zandelari Empire. But at the end of the day, he doesn't really care. He's
41:16
learned his secrets. He's learned about hisma. He's learned about the blood of life. And you see that when you finally
41:23
get to actually deal with him in battle for Azeroth. Everything he's doing is a
41:29
grab for power. He's got an allegiance. He learned about this blood, this and then you start learning that it wasn't
41:36
for him and it wasn't for Aloa. He made an allegiance with Gahun, an old god. An
41:42
old god that was created by the Titans and Titan watchers accidentally or on
41:48
purpose. yet to be yet to be seen. But Kahun, the blood god, a a a a diseasefilled god, one that mirrors
41:57
everything he learned from about Hakar, everything he learned about the Ammani, everything he learned about Lowa uh
42:04
bending essentially. Yeah. All that comes to place here. And even when he dies, because there's a point where
42:11
Rasakan pushes him off of the ledge of the the king's like throne roomish area where he
42:18
can sit and look over all of the uh the Xandelari Empire. He's not dead. He
42:23
comes back. He's still there. He's tied to the blood. You still have to go and kill him again. you have to kill a blood
42:30
version of him because he he's learned so much between the Dari and Zulra. Uh
42:36
learning about how Loas were in enslaved by the Atali uh learning about the sandfuries traditions of mummification
42:43
and undead because don't forget we haven't really talked about that. We could talk about Zul Farak trolls were
42:49
were creating undead before the scourge, right? We I don't think we've really
42:54
talked about that much on the show, but going but going going to Zul Farak,
42:59
there are witch doctors and templates and and and and uh tablets that dictate
43:05
how to preserve a body and then how to reanimate it. And those tablets are the ones that you're
43:11
sent in to get when you eventually end up going to the hinterlands to get the
43:16
mallet. Yeah. So, you actually go back and forth. So yeah, this is this is cross cross tribal
43:23
knowledge that Zul manages to get his hands on. And not only that, the winter bark know how to do this too, right? Like this is
43:28
this is a widespread knowledge. So then when you go into, you know, the battle for Azeroth and you're going after Zul
43:36
in that final push and the the the uh I can't remember what the name of the dungeon is, uh but it's essentially the
43:43
uh No, it's the the the tomb. The tomb. Oh, okay. Uh but it's where they create
43:49
the golden serpent to fight against the uh essentially the corrupting influence of the blood. Uh but then as you get
43:55
deeper in, you notice that the spirits are being reanimated. Uh they're being put back into their bodies. The undead
44:02
are rising. And these perfectly preserved kings are being awoken uh in their time of need because the the
44:09
Xandelari have a tradition of waking up past warriors when they absolutely need
44:14
to or have a dire need to uh to fight for them because again their time has
44:19
already come and gone so they can fight and they bring that knowledge and that that effort. And here's Zuul doing it
44:26
all himself, not not following any rituals and then waking these things up
44:31
and telling them that we're the invaders and making us fight them. It it was very
44:37
eye opening and how fragmented the trolls were, but also how much how much
44:43
what they were doing was tied up in the world and the world knowledge even through the lens of Zuul and what he
44:50
learned by going from place to place in the Yeah. It was his journey wasn't really one of trying to reunite the trolls so
44:56
much as it was trying to reunite their knowledge. Yeah. He was trying to like working with
45:01
like a a priestess of Shadra but ultimately betraying them. All of that stuff. He was just basically trying to
45:07
put together as much as he could that was lost when the Gurabashi split into the Ammani and the uh the Gorbashi and
45:14
the Ammani split from the Xandelari. And essentially the troll empire that was
45:19
once a Xandelari Empire became advised by the Xandelar but ruled by other
45:25
tribes. He was essentially trying to go around and recreate all that. And he was
45:31
willing to talk to anybody to do it and make deals with anybody right up to and including Gahun. Um the only reason he
45:37
didn't make deals with like anybody else was because I'm pretty sure that once he made a deal with Gahune, he was infected
45:43
by the same, you know, soul parasitic disease that Gahun gave everybody else.
45:49
And so he wasn't able to pass his animma on when he died, which is probably why we don't see him in Shadowlands because
45:55
this is a guy who would have known how to normally do it, you know. Uh so yeah,
46:01
there's there's Zul is sort of like this master figure behind most of the Z of the troll raids and dungeons you're
46:07
going to get to experience in World of Warcraft. He's just there for most of when even though he's not physically
46:14
there, he's stuff he did caused things to happen. Like you actually see him uh
46:21
there's a a older model of Zuul that you see in Cataclysm when he when they do
46:27
the trailers for the new dungeons coming back. Uh Z was the patch 4 the patch 4.1 trailer
46:33
or whatever. Yeah. Wildly different version of him than his headdress. Yeah. bulkier and not not as as
46:41
but I mean one of the things I always loved about like not just uh Zul himself but also uh
46:48
uh the princess is how like their their interplay when they're escaping
46:53
Stormwind which if you're Horde you're helping them do it and their the interplay Zul is Zul is basically daring
47:00
you to stop him like and he does stuff like he he sets
47:05
Stormwind on fire cuz he knows knows Jane is coming and he knows that's how he can stop her.
47:10
But not only that, like part of the reason he's so daring is because he's been given again goes back to this whole
47:16
prophecy thing. He thinks he knows how everything ends. He thinks that he he's been shown the future in which he's
47:23
victorious, not understanding that one, we're paragrant, uh, and two, that the things
47:31
that he's making deals with have imperfect knowledge. And yeah, Gahhoon is drawing from the void.
47:37
Any any visions Gahune gives you are potential. And Gahune is like and is like a a
47:44
mutated version of an old god to begin with. It's like he's like a nient or baby old
47:50
god or a stillborn old god even you could call him. He's not even he's not even really all the way there.
47:55
So he never takes that into effect or into knowledge because he doesn't know better. And so the the things he's
48:02
getting are essentially just they're incomplete. They're not there. It's
48:07
impossible for him to know. But he thinks that he's got a complete picture.
48:13
And because of that, he's bold. He does he he makes a lot of declarations. He he
48:18
makes a lot of statements that probably he shouldn't have. Uh but he doesn't
48:24
know any better. He's he's certain of his victory. Even when you kill him, when you finally kill him in old year,
48:30
cuz he's the last boss there. Yeah. No, he's not Goonas. He's like the
48:36
second last boss. Um when you kill him, one of the things he says, the last thing is this was not
48:43
the future I was promised. And this is after being raised as an undead by Goon. Yeah.
48:48
Right. So like he he was never playing with a winning hand from the beginning, but he thought he was now. And it worked
48:55
for a while because he did, as Joe pointed out earlier, he did see things. He did get visions for the future. He
49:02
just wasn't getting complete visions, which as we know from other prophets like Vel, it's kind of how it goes. So
49:11
yeah, the difference between the two of them is Vel has humility and understands that he doesn't know the complete thing. Uh, Zul had none of that. But why this
49:18
is important is in particular with the Xandelari and Zulleman and and all that
49:24
is we're going back to defend the Sunwell. We're going back to Qualas. We are rebuilding Silver Moon City. That
49:31
is inevitably going to cause friction with the trolls. We know this.
49:37
The are not going to accept it. There's nothing you can do to get them to accept it. Well, the interesting thing is it's
49:43
a pivotal point because two things are wild cards here that we haven't really talked about, but one of them is Vulgen.
49:50
Vulgen is being reborn into our world as a Loa of Kings. We don't know what
49:55
that's going to look like when he comes back and Vulg has beef with Ymani. Does he
50:03
maintain that beef or does he try to quell their rage and bring them into the fold into some form
50:12
of I don't want to say peaceful relationship but some form of coexistence that doesn't necessarily
50:18
continue old grudges does his presence potentially him showing up because we
50:25
don't know if he is or isn't but I'm speculating that we're going to see him before the end of everything that's happening with these three expansions.
50:31
Does he calm them down or does he decide to push the rest of the trolls to side
50:38
with the elves and wipe the Ammani off the face of the world? We don't know. But to Matt's point, they're going to be
50:44
angry. The Ammani are going to be very irritated that this city that they hated to begin with is getting rebuilt, is
50:51
getting cleaned up, uh, and is going to be in much better position than they are because they don't have a leader now.
50:57
They are scattered to a bunch of different places. they don't have their connection to the Lowa that they used
51:02
to. Um, the ones that did wind up going to uh the Xandelari main city and we
51:11
actually wind up dealing with them there in a dungeon as well. So, it's it's pretty interesting to see where this
51:17
will potentially shake out because as much as it is an elf expansion, elves
51:23
and trolls are are in the same bloodline. And with the Haroner coming in and our speculation that the Haroner
51:29
are essentially the missing link between dwarves trolls and uh elves,
51:35
dark trolls, it yeah, dark trolls and elves. Uh it could we could basically maybe going to
51:40
Zulan might be part of the whole idea of the harner are underground somewhere.
51:45
Maybe they're underground directly below Zulan. It's the Ammani. Also, keep in mind the
51:52
Ammani are important for another reason. And this reason is directly related to Gahun and the old gods. The temple that
52:01
is raided by Kith, it is Kith who raids it, right? Yeah. Um in is in a place called Atal Aman.
52:09
It's the original city in the Xandelari Empire that the Ammani come from and
52:16
it's pivotal to the suppression of of Gahun. It was built as a Titan facility
52:24
to suppress. Yep. Well, you know. Yeah. As part it's part of the big lock that was keeping old
52:31
deer and and Mithrax. Mithrax. Yeah. So that's that's another
52:38
connection to the Ammani. Like why were the Ammani there? Were they this is their home city and it's a big part of
52:45
suppressing Gahun? that can't be nothing, you know. So, there's a
52:51
possibility that they could be a lot more important to this whole idea of of stopping um Zolotath and preventing the
52:59
destruction of the Sunwell than we were we were led to believe. Yeah. And that's what I mean like there there could be this appeal, right, of
53:05
like their once noble purpose because don't forget like the the Ammani, they
53:12
they weren't always bloodthirsty. No, the Ammani and the and the Gorabbashi
53:18
learned to be as violent as they did. They were always rivals and they were always rivals to to the Xandelari. But
53:24
the Xandelari kind of tricked both tribes into leaving. Yeah. And going to fight the Akir. And the
53:31
thing is is that they did it and they won. They beat them. The last time the
53:36
old gods had a shot at ruling Azeroth, they weren't beaten by the elves. They
53:42
weren't beaten by Titan forged. They were beaten by the trolls. The Ammani
53:48
and the Gurabashi beat the Akir. They stopped the old gods. Not just Kithic
53:55
and his Akir servants, but Kathun. They went in and fought Kathun. They fought.
54:03
It's just it is it is a victory that is it was so costly that they never
54:09
recovered. The trolls never again had a worldwide empire. They lost it stopping
54:14
the old gods. But stop them they did. The troll wars, the original ones, the troll wars saved Azeroth. They could
54:23
theoretically be brought to do it again. Yeah. And that's why I'm saying like the the the the vulg
54:29
like if the timing's right, it could prevent a elf in troll war. But I mean,
54:35
I think we're going to see Salatath trying to stir the the pot on that, right? Like
54:41
cuz Salatath is the reason that the troll war happened. Yeah. Salatas drag, you know, lured a troll
54:47
mystic to find the itself jammed in the bo the body of Kith and he pulled it out
54:54
which is how Kithix got free. Yeah. And then he killed the troll and was using Zolotat for a while. So yeah,
55:01
Zalotat's deep in this all Yeah. And we've seen that Zelath has this whole offered of of power thing and
55:09
the Ammani have proven that they are receptive, willing to take those. Yeah. Yeah. So, I could see a thing where
55:16
we're we're trying to free the Ammani from Zaltas influence at some point and
55:23
maybe reuniting them and bringing them back into the fold of the rest of the the troll tribes because again, the Xandelari are part of the Horde now,
55:30
right? Like the Xandelari are are an allied race. they they're on our side. Um, we have the dark spear. They're
55:38
already there. All these other trolls are are already friendly with us.
55:43
They're not antagonistic anymore. And that might be a potential thing that we can leverage or that will be leveraged.
55:50
That said, I I think it is important to to know the history of Zulb and Zulleman
55:56
going into Midnight because again, it's right there. It is directly next door.
56:04
It is. And we know that like all the stuff in the the top of the Eastern Kingdoms from
56:10
what is now called Terrace Fall Glades over was originally Titan constructed. Mhm.
56:16
Cuz there's the not only is there's the tomb that uh Tier was laid in, but there's the fact that their descendants
56:23
were all over the freaking place. So yeah, there's there's quite a potential for secrets and underground mysteries
56:29
related to all this, which is I think is also why the har are going to be Yeah, I would agree because the harier
56:35
have definitely going to have something to say with this cuz they're going to know they know of the black blood, they know of Zalat, and they probably know
56:42
the history of uh all of the different troll disputes cuz we don't know how far those tunnels go. And if my speculation
56:47
is correct, they go all over Azeroth. But I think I want also I'm hoping before you before you move on, I'm hoping that the one
56:54
last remaining dark troll in Xandelar meets the Haracer Aaron and he's like,
57:01
you know what? I I want to see that. I want or that he was a spy for them all along.
57:07
Yeah, maybe. Maybe that'd be cool. I I definitely would like to see more of that, but go ahead. I just wanted to
57:13
No, but hopefully that does it uh or that does it for us. Hopefully you enjoyed our journey on there. Uh, I do want to thank you for for continuing to
57:20
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57:26
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57:38
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57:50
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57:55
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58:00
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58:07
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