Up next in 10
On this week's Lore Watch Podcast, Joe and Matt are joined again by our writer Eric O'Dea, and they continue to explore how the telling and re-telling of stories about creatures in folklore has evolved into the creatures we now know in some of our favorite media. This week they start the discussions with dragons and all their forms -- sapient, verbal, Dungeons and -- and how Dragons tend to affect the retellings of other creatures, too.
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[Music]
0:09
hello and welcome to Laura Watch round table free form discussion about learning your favorite media i'm your host Joe Perez one of several lower
0:15
focused folks from Blizzard Watch and I've got my mythic co-host with me today Matt Rossy how you doing today Matt you
0:21
will never find out because all the people who knew the secrets of my life are dead
0:28
uh all dead it's been like thousands of years guys you just don't just let it go and also joining us again for part two
0:34
of uh our races across media uh conversation is Eric how you doing today
0:40
Eric i am pretty good uh I think if Matt is mythic then I'm uh uncommon
0:45
well we'll see about getting that rarity up uh friends we are going to be discussing again part two of our last uh
0:51
episode which is races as they're portrayed across all media but if you have questions that you want us to
0:56
answer on this podcast or any of our podcasts or if you have a thematic show that you want us to cover please go
1:02
ahead and send those in you can send those into podcastwatch.com specify the show that it is for in the subject line as well as
1:09
any special pronunciation of your name you can also hit us up on Discord we have two channels set aside the Q and
1:14
Podcast questions channel which is open for everybody same rules apply we also have the patron Q and podcast questions
1:20
channel where we tend to look there first as a way saying thank you for our patrons for helping us keep the lights on and if you are a Patreon subscriber
1:26
you can actually message us directly on Patreon and we will indeed get that
1:32
message so let's crack on so in part one we talked about dwarves elves cobalts
1:39
orcs uh across various things and there are so many more that we can crack in with and I I'll let I'll let it to you
1:45
guys which one do you want to start with left cuz we still have all of the fairies gnomes we have so many i'll let
1:52
Eric have the first crack i mean are we going to do dragons is are we talking only
1:59
so go for it dragons o are you talking about dragons first you want me to do i mean I feel like I want to throw it to
2:05
you because they come from the exact How Where do dragons come from how much did
2:12
they come from us digging up skulls of things where everyone was like "What do you got there where'd you get that?" And
2:18
someone saying "I don't know it's probably something that died in the woods like last week." How much of that is true versus you know actually people
2:26
made up the idea of dragons well there's a lot of debate on whether or not the skull prehistoric skulls have been dug
2:33
up and someone was like "Ooh what is this?" And they made up a story about it being a dragon the fact that dragons are
2:39
fairly ubiquitous in human cultures that are wildly disperate in range like
2:45
you've got stories of dragons everywhere from the you know the rivers of Asia to
2:50
northern like northern and southern America there's there's stories of of reptiles that were massively sized on
2:57
the other hand there were a lot of big reptiles around the world um just within
3:03
human history uh creatures like Megalania met humans if if you met
3:10
Megalania you'd tell people about an effing dragon you saw cuz imagine a Komodo dragon that was the size of a
3:16
bull you know you you met that thing you would definitely be like "Giant dragon over there." Um saltwater crocodile you
3:22
run into that thing nile crocodile you're definitely going to be "There's a giant freaking thing over there."
3:29
So I mean there's an alligator in China they they've been running into crocodilians and alligators all over the
3:37
world for centuries so is it that is it the fact that we have found skulls i
3:42
mean some people think that cyclopses are based on finding mammoth skulls uh and I can see it because the mammoth has
3:49
a giant hole where its nar should be and it looks like a place where you could imagine a big eye socket being yeah it
3:55
really they look like human skulls if you blew it up 50 times and it had one giant hole in the middle of it it's
4:01
crazy i mean the eyes on the side it's kind of easy to just think those are holes because you know that's just the
4:06
way skulls are so it it is there's a debate on that but one of the things I think is actually more important than
4:12
whether or not uh we based it on things we've seen is how artistically speaking
4:20
this goes back well beyond the establishment of of things we call human culture there are wall paintings in
4:28
caves of things you might call a dragon there's uh one infamous piece of art on
4:35
the walls of Assyria and Nineveh was the Siush which is essentially a four-legged
4:41
reptilian thing um and it's right there on the wall and the wall goes back to like four like 3 4 thousand years before
4:48
Christ i mean there's there's cultural transmission of dragon-like things is is
4:54
something we have seen pretty much as long as we've had the ability to draw stuff so basically we've always had
5:00
monsters and some dragons dragons are kind of like the I don't want to call it
5:05
the MVP of monsters the It's just one of the things you see a lot and Joe was about to say something so I'm going to let Yeah I was going to say one of the
5:11
things that I think was was always fascinating about dragons in particular because we we've we've sort of danced around this topic uh a while ago matt
5:19
pointed out that a lot of the where storytelling comes from uh or at least
5:25
one of the areas that we notice is people who were merchants and did a lot of traveling and when they would go from
5:32
one land to another they would see things that they had never really seen before they would see you know new
5:39
creatures or or what they would consider I don't want to say monsters but they may think of them as monsters like think
5:44
of it if you come from a land where there are no uh there are no gigantic
5:50
you know Komodo dragons right and then you see something that size it when
5:56
you're traveling around it's natural somewhere else but to you it's completely foreign you might think that
6:01
that's a dragon and that might spawn a tail and with what Matt's saying too with
6:08
them being sort of culturally everywhere and what you're saying as well there is an element of that which I think is
6:14
absolutely f fascinating because you have representations of them in Mesopotamia Egypt Greece China Japan uh
6:21
all throughout the the Europe all throughout uh the Americas both north and south and it's such like a
6:28
ubiquitous thing that like you mentioned dragon and while it may mean something else to to the person you're talking
6:34
with they have an idea of what a dragon is and that's before you even get into the representation in pop culture so
6:41
yeah and and that's one of the one of the fascinating things to me is how that feeds into things too um there's a myth
6:47
in Poland and in in other Slavic countries of a creature named Smok and
6:52
Smok is essentially a dragon uh it's a big giant reptile monster they've named a a thing that they found that might be
7:00
a it might be a dinosaur line arcosaur or it might be a crocodile line arcosaur
7:05
but either way it's a bipeedal stand there giant teeth in its mouth one ton predator and nobody knows
7:13
exactly what it is so they named it smok and that's the kind of thing that I I think is illustrative of how if you
7:20
can't figure out what to call this thing you'll call it a dragon we don't know anything about it but we know it's it's
7:27
a big reptile it's a dragon so if you go to South America and you see an anaconda
7:32
it's a dragon you know it it the the Egyptian apous was a big snake the
7:40
Midgard serpent uh is just a big snake um Vitra who is a dragon monster from um
7:49
you know Indian mythology I I don't want to say Indian but I can't think of the right way to put it it's Arian mostly um
7:56
in you know Vitra who fights Indra is very similar to the Midgar serpent in
8:02
that it's a giant reptilian somewhat serpentine creature that fights the god
8:07
of thunder and Britra is very much depicted as simultaneously serpent like
8:15
and yet winged much like a king cobra which doesn't surprise me cuz it's in
8:21
India so these things whether or not it's because we have an inherent fear of
8:26
snakes by the way we do um we are hardwired for it yeah yeah hominids um
8:32
have evolved up from primates that were on the menu for serpents straight up
8:37
when they've done tests they did them in Japan they did them in in uh I believe it was in
8:44
I want to say Oslo but they they did a test where they basically would show silhouettes of various animals at
8:50
greater and lesser levels of resolution humans could spot a snake when it was a couple of blotches on a screen they
8:57
would be that's a snake and they would they'd be right we we know them almost instinctively because we had to or we
9:04
got dead so that could be a part of it too but however you look at it they're
9:10
they're so common across multiple human cultures that if you're trying to
9:15
explain what a big monster that lives somewhere and does something is calling
9:21
it a dragon would make a lot of sense it's and dragon comes from the Greek Dracon and Dracon is essentially a word
9:29
that means great and terrible uh it's the the ma the actual living person
9:34
Draco of Athens was named after that word and it was ma he was named that
9:39
because he was considered to be the great lawmaker of Athens um he was also
9:46
cruel but they were everybody was cruel back then at least he had rules and that's one of the things about dragons
9:52
like in in various mythologies like if you look at the the Asian conception of a dragon yes they're powerful and they
9:59
can destroy you but they're not just wandering around doing that they have a role and they're part of the order of
10:06
creation they're part of the world in Europe they were less that and more just
10:12
there's a giant monster over there don't go near it um but you see it in Norse
10:17
mythology we talked about Norse mythology before uh Fafnir who was cursed for his greed by turning into a
10:24
giant covetous dragon which if you've read Tolken sounds kind of familiar um
10:30
and and Tolken is is responsible to a degree for a lot of the modern conception of dragons but unlike in
10:38
other things there were so many other versions of dragons uh a lot of people
10:43
don't know this but the Terrarasque is an actual French myth fairy tale about a
10:50
giant dragon thing that's often called the dragon at the same time it is called the Terrasque and the Terrasque is it's
10:58
not just a big monster that has a big shell on its back and can't die it's got
11:03
a whole mythological story of it's the attempt to destroy it a generational fight against this thing very similar to
11:10
the questing beast uh from Arththeran Tales very similar to um lots of St
11:17
george stories the idea of a of a specific dragon slayer or dragon slaying lineage is another thing that's that's
11:24
widespread um and it go all the way to Heracles versus the Hydra um or if you
11:31
want like something even more draconic Typhen who is also sometimes depicted as kind of a humanoid with a bunch of
11:36
snakes coming out of him but sometimes is depicted as just a big old dragon um ironically Tiamat is almost never
11:42
depicted as a dragon the fact that in mythology Tiiamat's like this ocean
11:48
thing it's like literally Tiamatsu Absu is the deep abyss of of of fresh water
11:54
and Tiamat's the deep abyss of of of salty water and you know nowadays we
11:59
hear the word Tiamat and we think a dragon with five heads that's like that's that's drift on a whole new level
12:05
that's just wow how did we get here uh but yeah there's but even like to go and
12:12
I'm going to shut up so Joe can talk because I just heard a joke about to talk but even like the concept of
12:17
characters that we see in D and D like Bahamut bahamut the word Bahamut comes from the same root as the word behemoth
12:23
mhm and it is and in the original mythologies the behemoth was a specific
12:29
dragon um so yeah I'm going to shut up now and talk no I was just going to say
12:34
like I I I I like sometimes going through and reminding people that cuz a lot of the dragons are often just
12:40
thought of as a Tolkenesque like fantasy trope or D and D or uh that they're very
12:46
like just European only and they're not and some people know of some of the other ones like we've people have talked
12:52
about like the the Aztec dragons and and things like that um but like West Africa
12:59
has a a very rich culture of dragons in their mythology as well whether it's the rainbow certain I think it's ido um
13:07
there's also the aido which is uh apparently a loa uh that is married to
13:13
dumbala like dumbala itself is a low a lowa that maybe many people have heard
13:19
of but is often referred to as a dragon as well so like you you can look
13:25
everywhere in the world and there are these beautiful representations of what a dragon is and it goes back to what
13:32
Matt was talking about earlier where there's an element of it where it's like this is a big powerful thing that you
13:38
know does something uh and that's just what we call it it's just a classification essentially uh whether
13:45
it's you know uh the apop which is the giant serpent of chaos from Egyptian myth mythology uh or if you want to go
13:52
with any of the European or Celtic dragons that existed that we already know about uh or going to like Lithuania
13:59
has uh that Italian history has a dragon
14:04
that lives uh in Gundo Lake uh this the lake that's between Milan and Loi and uh
14:11
Cremona like Matt talked about the Polish dragons there are several there
14:16
it very similar to the Lithuanian ones by the way guys very but like there's even a story one of my favorite stories
14:22
this one I I know it's set in England but I think it's based on a version that comes from mainland Europe but there's a
14:27
story of a guy who had a a Lindam in a in a in a whale on his property and he
14:34
couldn't kill it mhm and finally he goes to a a wise man and says "How do I kill this thing?" He goes "Put spikes all
14:41
over your armor." And so when he fights it and it wraps around him to constrict him it cuts itself repeatedly on his
14:47
armor and that's how he finally manages to decapitate it and it's just one of those stories where like someone's
14:53
telling the story and he puts in the bit about the dude being caught in his underwear and I'm sitting there going
14:58
you know somebody decided to take the peg when they were writing this down after like generations but I mean even
15:05
to the point where there's like stories I I mentioned Heracles as like you know going around doing that the the concept
15:14
is so familiar that you can actually track it like Perun fights one um Donar
15:21
fights one thor fights one there's the the one that lives literally Fafnir uh
15:27
at you know living down at the you know this Nidhog eating the roots of of Ydrazle that's a different dragon that
15:33
the Norse talk about there's the various Gaelic ones that exist like the white dragon and the red dragon that fight
15:40
after they fight forever underground in the pit and you know you have to drain the liver and and use the blood of a
15:46
virgin-born man otherwise the dragons will just keep fighting there's just millions of these stories and to a
15:53
certain degree I feel like dragons are the only monster where we can say it's absolutely impossible for any culture to
16:00
claim that this is theirs cuz it's everybody's everybody has something it's all storytelling it's all And like you
16:06
said with the traveling like no one wants to be like "Hey what did you see on your journey to the the far away
16:13
land?" And have the person be like "They have their squirrels are a different color." You know it's a much better That
16:19
is messed up when I moved to Canada and all the squirrels here are red it is so
16:24
weird i come from New England the sc all the squirrels are gray and then I come up here and all the squirrels are red
16:30
and I'm like what's going on why are the squirrels smaller and redder it it's a
16:35
good story but it's a better story when you say you found a white squirrel oh yeah the dragon is the bet but like I
16:41
saw a white squirrel it's like well did the white squirrel do anything when you say no it was just a white squirrel
16:46
that's not a good story and people walk away if you say "Yeah it granted me some wishes," then that's a good story and
16:53
you tell that story people are asking you to tell that story again if you go if you're I got I just got back from the
16:58
desert and they have these huge serpents and someone's like "Do did they have wings?" You might be like "Yes they
17:04
did." How did you know coming coming from every culture kind of using using
17:11
what was a around them like quel kettle being like you know the winged serpent
17:16
and uh other the thing too is that you know that they've actually found snakes that can jump from tree to tree and
17:22
glide right yeah 200 ft yeah in South America so when you're telling that
17:28
story and you just what did it have wings no it just sort of glided how I don't know like eventually somebody
17:34
might throw in wings just cuz he's tired of getting asked about it um and the other thing too is that like there's
17:40
also people who just straight up made stuff up mhm um the the one of the my
17:46
favorite stories from the medieval period is a book called The Travels of Sir John Mandeville even Sir John
17:51
Mandeville was made up nobody knows who this guy is like there's no actual historical Sir John Mandeville you can
17:57
you can trace him to but it's this story about going like to the fantastic lands
18:03
of the east and it's like a generation before Marco Polo and literally everything in it like it's like yes on
18:11
this one island there are men with two heads that that chase each other but they only share one leg so they have to
18:16
hop and it's it's like he just does that like oh yeah this place was where I met the Kynos Safali the what the Kosali the
18:23
do-headed people you've met them right no oh yeah there's all of them in the desert got heads like dogs and just like
18:30
that's the book is just he just at one point he tells people that sheep in in
18:35
in Madagascar there are sheep that grow on trees it's just cotton but he's
18:40
telling people that it's sheep growing from trees yeah it's been 8,000 years and we're just we're just still telling
18:45
stories and the best stories keep going and the thing about dragons is I think
18:51
they're just so they can play almost any role you want they can be the horrible
18:57
thing that you have to kill they can be the thing that you have to go talk to and gain wisdom from uh they can be the
19:03
thing that you know just just tells you how strange whatever you're experiencing
19:09
is they just play a lot of roles in modern like since we're talking about modern games that draw from these kind
19:15
of things the reason that they're so useful for this is because they already
19:21
like they already can be almost anything you want so if you want to have a dragon
19:26
that's just a raving monster that you know hey you can want a Deathwing we can give you a Deathwing do you want a wise
19:32
friend who can like you know be your mentor and guide we got different flavors of that uh do you want someone
19:38
who's kind of a trickster like one of my favorite dragon characters from any media anywhere is the dragon from uh
19:45
original Shadow Run uh I think it's pronounced Dunlan but I'm not 100% on this but he was just he basically set up
19:53
a situation knowing he would die on purpose to stop a global magical
19:59
catastrophe from happening mhm he And the more you find out about him the more
20:04
you realize this was genuinely the best dude in the world this dragon was the
20:10
smartest technically the fourth one yeah but technically the smartest and most
20:15
caring dragon in existence most caring being in existence because he sacrificed
20:21
himself to save the world from horrible magic eatating monsters and nobody knows
20:26
and it's just it's it's a dragon but it only makes sense if it's a dragon because only a dragon would live so long
20:33
and see could possibly have lived long enough to have seen the thing that he was afraid was going to happen uh so
20:39
yeah that's World of Warcraft like really benefits from this because they can absolutely pull dragons out whenever
20:45
they need to for this any any story role they want it to be i feel like one thing that kind of cross cuts across
20:52
everything where you can have like you said you can have dragons that are clever and you need to outwit them and they're hoard treasure and other ones
20:58
that just want to you know use their fire breath on everything they're powerful and I think that comes all the
21:04
way back from the stories we tell where you know there's the beast in the woods
21:10
and you should be worried about it not cuz it like might come by but because it's really powerful and it's the big
21:17
bad guy of the story and we need the biggest hero to go fight the most powerful monster it's It seems to be a
21:24
not not universal but a pretty uh widespread part of a dragon being a
21:30
dragon is it's got to be a big deal well I mean yes and that I think that is
21:35
relatively the most common interpretation of them but I don't know that that's necessarily universal right like so I
21:43
think it leans more into Matt's side of it where as you start digging through a lot of the real world mythologies and
21:50
then start dealing with uh how those are interpreted therein inside of the media we consume it's such a wide gamut i
21:58
don't know that there's necessarily a a major buy through
22:03
besides the classic fantasy trope when you're dealing with a fantasy trope but
22:09
also then you start dealing with things like and and we'll go into D and D a little bit more but Dn D is not every
22:15
dragon is evil right not every dragon is trying to eat you or kill you and not
22:21
every dragon is the final boss and there's certainly plenty of them but in D and D they've made it a point to sort
22:28
of craft the dragons to be I think more closer to at least in current day D and
22:34
D what most mythologies in the world like an amalgamation of them where you
22:40
can have this rich nobleman that you know is a little bit aloof but like
22:46
still gives back to the city and like make sure that the city is maintained and his family's done that for
22:52
generations then you find out it's a dragon who's taken a human visage uh over the course of centuries to oversee
22:58
this like land um or this very powerful wizard that has been protecting these
23:04
people uh turns out it wasn't actually a wizard all along it was a dragon in human form um and then you see that
23:10
translated into World of Warcraft because like Matt pointed out there's the you can have the big bad be a dragon
23:18
which Deathwing was sort of that boogeyman that that sort of hung out in the background but more often than not
23:25
dragons in World of Warcraft are friends and it's it's more than they are enemies
23:32
outside of like the tussle we had with the Infinite Dragon Flight which are now friends most of them um we've come to an
23:39
understanding but they they tend to be while powerful on par with us and I
23:46
think that's absolutely fascinating um Matt mentioned Shadowrun and I don't want to go too far into that yet because
23:52
I do want to gush about Shadow Run in a little while uh because it is probably
23:57
my favorite way to interpret fantasy races in a long time but I think maybe
24:03
we move on from dragons see if there's anything else we want to cover before we start getting into other weird branches
24:09
well I mean I think we we kind of have to talk about goblins and the way that
24:14
you have not seen goblins the way they originally were since Dungeons and Dragons like you straight up Dungeons
24:20
and Dragons changed goblins forever go for it um before uh Dungeons and Dragons
24:26
like I'm going to use an example there's a a poem uh in England called Goblin Market and I'm not going to tell you the
24:33
name of the author because if you look it up you'll see that the name of that character is such that you'd be understand why I know about it but
24:41
Goblin Market is all about what is essentially a bunch of Trixie hobbits
24:47
uh running around in a market and it it's it's just the idea of what a goblin was was
24:54
essentially the same as that idea that the Germans had about a cobalt it's essentially the same thing it was weird
25:00
little spirits that lived around the periphery and I I want to talk about
25:05
this in relation to leprechauns for a second and and I promise you I'm going somewhere with this do you know what
25:10
leprechaun means where the root of the word comes from uh I probably should given my name but I do not okay joe you
25:18
were saying something so uh I don't remember what it actually means leprechaun comes from the Gaelic title
25:26
uh Lou of the skilled hand uh the Lou in question is a divine figure uh
25:33
specifically the god that lions in France was named after um the lord of
25:38
light of the s of the sure hand lu lamach damia in in Irish and I know I
25:46
mispronounced it irish people you don't have to tell me i'm sorry i really am trying but the point is this was the
25:53
chief god of of the not just of the Toatha de Danan but of everybody this
26:00
was if you were Gaelic this was the guy you prayed to um he's essentially the dog the high god and he was the one who
26:08
killed the Bor with the with his mighty spear and he gets degraded over time
26:15
into this little tiny house spirit who who might help you find a pot of gold
26:21
like and that's the thing that goblins are goblins were that because that's
26:26
what happened to all these stories of beings like you know like there's the
26:32
old Irish uh SL no this one's well sorry uh Pill Pen Anwin which was you know Pill Lord of Anwin where a a princling
26:40
named Pill runs into the king of the underworld and they switch places for a year because of
26:47
how uh P had disrespected the king of the underworld and it's it's kind of one
26:53
of those myths that leads into another myth and it's part of the Mabinosion but the point of it is just that you have
26:59
these things throughout any place where one of the big world religions came
27:05
along whether it's Zoroastrianism or Islam or Christianity
27:12
or even like the methodic Roman the Roman cults that existed before Christianity when a a group comes in and
27:19
places their religion onto an area that had its own religion already the divine
27:24
figures of that previous religion get degraded uh like Bridget the the fire goddess becomes straight Saint Bridget
27:31
in you know there's no Bridget that the saint didn't exist it's a taking an Irish goddess and turning her into a
27:38
saint so they could keep praying to her that's what the leprechaun was that's what goblins were and then over time
27:46
they they degraded even from that down to just little weird things that live in the house and and do little magic stuff
27:54
but when Tolken needed goblins he he just kind of made them orcs he was like
28:01
goblins just another word for orcs but when Dungeons and Dragons came along uh they needed something that could The
28:09
problem with orcs is that they are just big monsters that are just chaotic and
28:15
you know essentially are kind of always be depicted as like a a horde of of things that come along and have to be
28:21
fought what do you what you sometimes need is something that can be a smaller scale you need something that isn't a
28:28
threat but it's enough of a threat that you'd want to go it's a step up from having to kill rats in the basement but
28:34
it's still not the big problem and that's Cobalts and and and goblins
28:40
essentially had the same thing happen to them but Cobalts fractured into a
28:45
bulcanized understanding where everybody had a different version of goblins if you look at almost every fantasy role
28:51
playing game of the past 40 years past I'll say past 50 years going all the way
28:57
back to the original versions of Dn D Goblins became the group that almost everybody
29:02
agreed had bigger and smaller versions that played different roles in their
29:08
society essentially they took the Orokai concept from orcs and made it hobgoblins
29:15
in Dn D and everybody borrowed it even people who didn't use the words um Iron
29:20
Kingdoms even has like the the Agrun and the Bogan where they're they're not quite goblins and ogres but they are and
29:29
they've even there they have that stratified smallest ones are the craziest middlesized ones are the most
29:35
organized biggest ones are the biggest and that's you see that in Dn D you see
29:41
that in in Iron Kingdoms you see that in pretty much every fantasy game that has
29:46
goblins in it and it's it's directly drawn from that original conception because it makes a useful counter
29:53
balance to just having orcs all the time it's like yes it's great to have this this group that can just come in and
29:59
smash everything and then as orcs have become a group where you actually see
30:07
them almost playable more goblins have stepped into the role orcs were playing
30:12
because orcs aren't doing it as much anymore orcs are still kind of berserkers and barbarians but they're
30:17
much more like the Norse who were invading temples and the the the populace was like from the fury of the
30:22
northmen oh Lord deliver us meanwhile the Vikings are like "Did you know they have big houses down there that's just
30:28
full of gold and they don't have anybody in them who can fight?" What seriously yeah well I mean I need gold yeah me too
30:35
my dad's never going to let me inherit nothing we should go take that gold i mean they're not doing anything with it they're just leaving it there i guess I
30:42
guess it's got something to do with their religion oh yeah i don't know anything about their religion so that that's that's what orcs kind of became
30:49
they can like understandable comprehensible they're not just monsters anymore their their people but they
30:55
still need monsters the endless hunger for monsters is always going to be there and goblinoids as they appear in most
31:02
fantasy games now absolutely fill that role and it's it's very much a D and D
31:08
thing so you're saying that's the filter on that one where Yeah absolutely tolken barely even gave them a moment's notice
31:14
he used the word and he moved on yeah i mean where we've got the the picture of goblins you have now if you asked you
31:20
know a hundred people who are pretty up on fantasy and enjoyed you know World of Warcraft or something what a goblin
31:26
would be it it's it would be pretty much collated and you wouldn't get too many people who say "Oh yeah it's a short
31:33
hairy uh pointyeared thing that lives in your house." So yeah like seeing seeing
31:39
that like like the filter of Yeah like you go you went from the the Femoranss who are like rivals to the gods
31:46
essentially like the Jotin of Norse mythology and you you get them broken down till they're like your house friend
31:53
who helps you make a a belt buckle and then they get you know used in this like this fantasy almost like filigree in
32:01
arabesque it's like having a goblin in your story convinces everyone oh it's weirdly it's weird and magical cuz
32:07
there's goblins in it and oddly enough JK Rowling really preserves that version of goblins uh you can talk about all the
32:14
things JK Rowling does wrong it would be my pleasure but one of the things she does really wrong is her weird racist
32:21
goblins that are obviously a caricature of real life people and that's absolutely the wrong use for them the
32:27
right use for goblins is as inhuman almost like almost the opposite of elves
32:35
like what's the old saying the opposite of love isn't hate it's indifference the opposite of elf isn't dwarf it's goblin
32:41
yeah like interesting too because you're talking about they needed monsters and that's a big part of all these different
32:47
races we're talking about all the different iterations and where they split off it's what was it what did you
32:52
need it for in your storytelling we we needed uh something that wasn't you know you can't go straight from fighting rats
32:59
to fighting orcs and dragons goblins are good okay uh that worked but now every
33:06
time that I start a new adventure the first four levels are you're fighting different goblins we need something else how about cobalts yes okay are they
33:12
different enough no they're not different enough so in the next iteration we need to you know make them a little bit more different cobalts are
33:18
scaly and goblins are green and things like that like you can see where things evolve and in mythology and storytelling
33:25
from thousands of years ago you needed a good story you just needed to catch people's attention you needed to teach
33:31
them a lesson don't go in the woods or you'll get eaten by something like lose change that's where you go back to the
33:37
red cap thing or whatever these various you know it's basically if you go into the woods um old lady will make you cook
33:47
you in her house full of gingerbread what really oh I was I was just trying to come up with something so yeah it it
33:54
really comes down to only recently have we really needed a fine-tuned Oh well I
34:00
have goblins but I now I need to split it again cuz they're I need to know what they are yes because the players are
34:05
going to need to know yeah what if what if goblins were were bigger do goblins have bigger cousins like you can go back
34:12
to the mythology and find it or you can just be like "Yeah we'll call them something else." And and that you know
34:17
propagates forward from there so moving on from there I want to talk about modernization of these ideas and sort of
34:26
how they've evolved in different other formats because we've talked about fantasy but when Matt mentioned
34:32
Shadowrun that starts breaching into science fantasy and obviously we can
34:37
talk about science fiction as well because these fantasy races are not just limited to to fantasy they're across all
34:45
forms of media so like Shadowrun is a really good example and it's sort of like a bridge between the two as it's
34:52
listed as sci fantasy uh but it has everything we've talked about and it
34:57
does it in a much different manner there are elves but they're not necessarily
35:03
the the Tolken-esque elves that you've seen before um they're more in line with
35:08
the Toathon uh like Matt said before um you have dwarves but they're not just
35:15
gruff British or Scottish men digging tunnels uh they're a little bit more
35:20
than that um you have orcs and ogres and all these other things but at one point
35:26
in time they were just people they were just humans and so you have this very
35:31
vastly different dynamic where yeah you might be a troll but that doesn't
35:36
necessarily mean you follow the old Grims fairy tale uh scheme of troll with
35:42
your weaknesses and who you are and yeah one of the I'm sorry to interrupt you but I have to mention this
35:48
one of my favorite trolls in any Shadowrun uh game is from uh one of the modules that deals with the insect
35:55
spirits mhm and he the reason he's so well realized is his great-grandfather was was an Awitz survivor and and he's
36:03
still like he's only his mother turned into a troll so they've only been a
36:08
troll for two generations yep they still speak Yiddish and it's it's just he's
36:14
one of my favorite characters cuz he's just like I cannot I cannot believe this yoga and it's just you know that sounds
36:20
ridiculous but it's really much more lived in than that that's part of their life experience they within generations
36:27
they were just everybody else and it's called UE in the game um which is what I
36:33
can't remember the U but it's something genetic expression yeah it's um but it's
36:38
also referred to as goblinization in the books as well uh which I think is going
36:44
back to our earlier discussion I think is really interesting because it's an event that happens where essentially I
36:50
believe it's tied to Haley's comet if I remember correctly um Haley's comet comes comes and visits and the the
36:56
radiation essentially kicks off this degradation between the sealed off uh fifth world and the sixth world which
37:02
we're in shadow Run goes in different cycles where the world is uh magical and
37:08
mundane magical and mundane and it flips between the two um and we're moving from the fifth which is a more mundane
37:14
society to a fifth and when that barrier is broken or to six to to this mystical
37:20
one when that barrier is broken down everybody transforms and it's not just the classic fantasy races people turn
37:26
into gnomes and giants and minotaurs otherwise known as meta variants you have insecttoid people which are tied to
37:34
a different element but have sort of that same thing where like in D and D you may be familiar with the thricine
37:39
which are giant mantis people here they kind of exist but they're tied to the element of corruption and uh there's a
37:46
whole like slew of other things and the way they do dragons I think is absolutely fascinating dragons are not
37:54
just hoarding entities like Matt pointed out earlier there's one that literally gave its life to save the fourth world
38:02
from the magic catastrophe which gave birth to the fifth world which is what sealed away all of that magic and
38:10
essentially caused all of those races to evolve into humans just over time it's
38:17
absolutely fascinating those dragons are corporate overlords or ancient beings
38:22
that run these these corporations that run the world they're not all evil but they're not necessarily good they're
38:28
very much a moral gray spot and I think that is really really fascinating the
38:34
way they look at them because yes they are mass accumulating mass amounts of wealth but it's not in the traditional
38:39
way they're not just hoarding it and taking damsels and and what you see in in classic mythology and I like the way
38:46
that it sort of turns it on its head and I like when going back to what something
38:52
Eric said in the the first episode here I like when you take something that
38:57
people think they know and turn it on its head where you have this idea of this like super metropolitan area where
39:05
you know let's say New York City for example and people are walking around and they don't really pay each other any
39:11
mind they're just people but then you have everything after the UE uh and then you have this where yeah
39:19
you can have an orc patrol an alpha dwarf a gnome a minotaur all walking on the street and nobody pays any mind to
39:25
each other it's just the way life is and I like that that that unexplained genetics expression causing people to
39:33
just become the embodiment of whatever their their lineage was cuz that's when you find out that like again everybody
39:41
has this rooted in like the first world second world thr and forth that their genetic makeup is something that is akin
39:48
to this that that's why they become these things but they're very human stories and it makes it so that things
39:54
like minotaurs are not necessarily just evil beings they're just like maybe some dude from New Jersey who didn't want to
40:00
become a cowman but just became a cowman or maybe that dragon who uh you know you
40:05
just saw flying through the air is off late to a business meeting and it turns sort of like all those classic tropes
40:12
into kind of like throws them out and I really really like that so I know Matt
40:17
say I would say that I don't agree that it throws them out so much is that it subverts them fair uh
40:24
there are certainly dragons in the uh world of Shadow Run who are straight up
40:29
monsters like there's the ones that technology are super into human sacrifice for example um I would not
40:36
feel bad about hearing what they worked at technology got whacked um but there's
40:42
also like the thing that is haunting Shadow Run ultimately is that back in
40:48
the very early period of human history everything was different mhm and this
40:54
magical horror happened that uh I really we we can't go into it because it just
40:59
take too long but as a result of that everything got broken all the early
41:06
myths and legends are they were told by people who never actually experienced those things because the real events
41:13
were wiped out in the tide of nightmare and what happened recently did what
41:19
could never have been done before it prevented magic from surging up to the point where the Lovecrafty and horror
41:25
monsters just invade the world and suck it dry and then leave by locking them out you've created a world where magical
41:31
things can exist but it never gets to the point where magical impossibilities come to devour you and but because of
41:38
that because that happened and it happened previously it happened at least four times all these things that we
41:45
think we knew all these these for lack of a better word tropes are half-remembered babblings of people who
41:51
are trying to remember worlds that they witness get destroyed it's it's sort of like if the only people left to tell you
41:59
about the world as you know it were apocalypse survivors and then a thousand
42:05
years passes and another apocalypse happens and now you're even you're trying to tell two apocalypses a ghost
42:11
stories and that happens four times that's the thing I really love about Shadow Run is the way it is it is a very
42:17
logical world on the surface because it's and it's a like take our world and
42:22
add magic to it but beyond that it's actually a story about how chaotic existence is and and so things like
42:31
dragons and people turning into orcs and weird bugs you can pray to and all this
42:37
strange magic stuff serves to tell basically the same purpose as just you
42:43
know Cyberpunk 2077 but it's more fun because there's more stuff in it you
42:48
know so that to me is like one of the beautiful things about that kind of modernization where it as opposed to
42:54
there was a Netflix movie a couple years back uh with Will Smith called Brite I think yeah bright brite was like if you
43:00
took Shatter Run and ruined it like if you took everything cool and just No
43:06
don't do that don't talk about any of the cool stuff just just focus on like the life of this one orc beat cop and
43:12
then they didn't even do that right yeah i like when you have some kind of you
43:17
know new media or you pick up a book or something and it takes one of the tropes and turns it on its head in a way that
43:23
you haven't seen before when I was younger one of my favorite book series was The Pit Dragon Chronicles by Jane
43:29
Yolan and it takes place on another planet and dragons are just animals like
43:34
they're they're dragons they're big scaly reptilian flying fearsome but like
43:39
they're animals and they're you know raised on farms and there's a pit where
43:44
the most fearsome ones fight it out and you know gambling happens on them and then from there you know a couple of
43:51
fantasy type uh things happen but I I'm pretty sure I picked it up in the bookstore cuz it had a dragon on the
43:57
cover and I was like "Cool I want to read a book about dragons." And at first I was like "Oh the dragons aren't you know the the bad guys and they're not
44:03
special and they're not magical and like what's going on?" But sometimes that turns into the best kind of story where
44:11
it's taking something and turning it on its head it's not what you expect it's the opposite of all of the tropes that
44:17
you have across every other media so it Yeah it sounds similar where you have
44:22
like Yeah what if you had a minur just walking around in a business suit like what if dragons just hatched onto a farm
44:28
and people were like "Yep another day." Yeah and and again Shadowrun is sort of
44:33
like what I like I call it the bridge because I think it is sort of like this this bridge or modernization of a lot of
44:40
the fantasy tropes that we haven't seen in a while but it's not the only one there are several other representations
44:46
especially when you start going into the sci-fi realm where it takes classic fantasy tropes and views them through
44:54
the lens of like technology and space which is also always fascinating um and
44:59
again like there are some examples where you can see where Doctor Who even does it right where each of these air quote
45:07
fantasy races are aliens or another culture from somewhere else doctor Who even has a dragon in it it literally
45:14
that it's born of the moon the moon explodes a dragon comes out and another another dragon egg is laid in its place
45:21
um so like the the legacy of all these classic fantasy things that we've seen
45:27
for years all these uh myths all these stories and all these things that have been codified uh and sort of given a
45:35
template by Tolken or filtered by Tolken um they're continuing to evolve and I
45:42
think that that is really important uh and something that I think is really neat uh we were Since we were talking
45:50
about this have you guys seen like like there's a there's a genre of I want to call it docu fiction where they have
45:58
like you know dragons the real story and it's it's a supposedly a documentary it's of course you know it's made up
46:04
dragons but they show them in the Cretaceous fighting dinosaurs and they show the evolution of dragons throughout
46:10
history it's something I find really amusing is it like the mermaid documentary yes but it didn't it didn't
46:16
try very hard to make you think it was real you know it was very much a dragons are real wink wink nudge nudge i don't
46:23
like it when they're like you know no this is totally true no I I I like it when they're aware that that what
46:29
they're saying is ridiculous but there's a certain amount of fun in the tying
46:34
together of like in a world where dragons actually existed it would be like they would probably have to have to
46:41
be the source of all the dragon stories we have you know we why else would we have them i mean they don't exist but we
46:47
still have them but it's just one of the things that I really like as is one of the things we do in the genre now is
46:53
this attempt to make them real things without taking away everything that
46:59
makes them fantastic you want them to be giant reptiles that can breathe fire and fly around and attack things and if you
47:06
can find a way to do that with a living animal it can be fun uh one of the reasons I like it in Shadow Run isn't
47:12
cuz it's they don't worry that much about making them physically possible in Shadow Run they worry about making them
47:18
plausible like you can believe that this thing would do this i feel like that's one of the problems with modern
47:25
storytelling is that there's so much out there already and there's so much that's
47:30
been done and you could come up with a great idea just like falling asleep and write it down and get all excited that you came up with an original idea and
47:37
then you look it up the next day and it turns out yeah somebody wrote a book series about that in the mid2010s
47:43
like there's so much media out there now that it becomes really hard to have an original idea even with all the
47:49
different species and dragons and all the things we have you know Tolken didn't have a lot of competition there
47:55
wasn't a lot it wasn't like he was going to fantasy writing conferences to exchange ideas it was just something
48:02
that he did and now almost 100 years later we have so many people who are
48:08
working on so many different kinds of media movies TV video games books it's
48:13
It's hard to think of something that's going to be original enough to stand out without being ridiculous
48:18
i guess let's finish it out with a thought because we have about maybe 10 or so minutes left of the recent years
48:26
of stuff that we've consumed is there something that you would call it as your favorite representation of something
48:33
like any of these fantasy races or any of these mythical creatures in anything
48:39
whether it's a game a movie a book is there something that particularly stands out to you that you've really enjoyed
48:46
and I'll start with Matt okay this one's kind of complicated but I love that we have taken a myth a myth that is of one
48:54
specific being and turned it into a category of beings and then made it into
49:00
a a race that actually has depending on the world you're talking about all sorts
49:07
of different attributes i'm talking about minotaur/orin because the minur is a
49:13
specific being mhm it is the child of the queen of of cit uh the king of of
49:22
queen uh the queen min queen of king minos uh who slept with a bull that the
49:29
gods sent to him to sacrifice that he refused to sacrifice because it was just such a great bowl um so they punished
49:37
him the pacif which was was her name was inflicted with madness and she went and she had Detilus make her a cow suit so
49:45
she could breed with the bull and give birth to his horrible halfbull offspring uh Mino saw this and was like "Well I
49:52
can't kill it because it's royalty also it's almost certainly divine in nature
49:59
cuz it's not dead so we just Yeah Detalus since you're the one that built
50:04
my wife that suit you're going to have to build me a trap i need a prison for
50:10
this thing and and if you don't um I'll kill your kid so D is like "One prison for a cow
50:17
monster coming up." And that's where we get the labyrinth from this is all in nature of explaining why Minos's palace
50:24
in Cree which actually existed is so effing confusing for people because those ruins were around forever um the
50:31
the cretan empire just died before the end of the dark ages and the Greek dark
50:36
ages is what I'm talking about neg like 1,200 BC the the cret and the
50:41
manoan empire was already gone so to explain when the Greeks Greeks got there and they were wandering around the ruins
50:48
of the palaces they're like this is amazing why is it like this oh yeah Minos had a bull son so it started off
50:55
as that and then you got the Thesius story where Thesius goes into the the place to fight the minur because you
51:02
know it they're having to sacrifice 12 Athenians every like 10 years or
51:07
something and he's tired of it so he goes and he kills the minur um all of this is just one being Asterion that's
51:15
his name he's literally the son of Zeus because it was Zeus who took the form of
51:21
the bull it's all related to the Europa myth and as a result he was a divine
51:26
being so when Thesius killed him the only reason Thesius could do it was Thesius was the son of Poseidon so a divine being killing another divine
51:33
being but that's that was it there were no others like him there was just the one and sometime by the medieval period
51:41
people just started drawing them randomly on in scenes you know we've got this scene of mythology stuff ah throw a
51:46
couple minotaurs in but but there's only just do what he says he's he he'll kill your your family if you don't you know
51:52
shades of earlier all that ends up in Dungeons and Dragons where they're like
51:58
they just need to make it a monster type so they just make it a monster type it's still good at finding its way around
52:04
labyrinths it's still got a big two-headed axe it's still a walking bullman but now there's a bunch of them
52:11
and then you get like that's just it's just a background detail at first it's just hey another monster they don't
52:18
perform any ecological role but then dragon lance comes out and suddenly
52:23
minotaurs are a people who live to the south and they're related to giants but
52:29
they have their own culture and they're like pirate warlords who run their own
52:35
empire and you're like "Wow there's a lot of thought about minotaurs." Then
52:40
World of Warcraft goes "Hey wait hold my beer now we've made we've taken
52:45
minotaurs and turned them into like everything minotaurs were but also
52:51
completely different cultures we've we've like added in aspects of like three or four different real world
52:57
cultures and someday we'll we'll do a whole lore watch about real world cultures getting turned into video game
53:02
fodder but at this point to like some of them are good some of them are noble and great some of them are evil but they
53:08
they exist as this wide swath of people you've got the the Tonka the the torin
53:15
the yongal i am sure at some point you know the the the high mountain torren don't really count because they're just
53:20
more torren just got a magical curse but a magical blessing sorry but at some point I'm sure we'll get another group
53:26
like we'll get like we'll get ox people or something and it's just wild to me
53:33
that minotaurs have become a straightup fantasy race when they started off as
53:38
one guy mhm there weren't any go ahead you're talking about not a filter but
53:44
more like an equalizer where more like a crack like if you had a tank you had a tank that was just the
53:51
one guy someone punched a hole in it and Minotaur juice went everywhere and man I don't want to think about Minotaur juice
53:56
too much i might have to edit that out the the one guy went into the filter and
54:03
it was okay what do we We're going to make it you know a monster type what What's the deal what What is it what do what do these minotaurs have what are
54:10
they and it's like well we have some details but we we don't have as much as we have for elves it's like fill it in
54:15
and part of that and so sorry go ahead that just like the chain of storytelling where like each time it gets added a
54:21
little bit more until you have a whole entire races yeah and and there's like a there's an intermediary in there too
54:27
where like one of the and Matt didn't even get into this where one of the interpretations later on down the line
54:32
during the translation of the myth wasn't so much that it was a naturally born uh creature but that it was a curse
54:39
and so then that lends itself oh so you can just curse people to be animal things so then you have all these other
54:46
things that spawn off from it right like all these other halfan animal fantasy
54:51
races like we didn't even talk about centaurs we didn't even talk about like half of the fay creatures like there are
54:58
so many more things that we could still talk about that have roots that go back to this was one thing that then sprouted
55:05
into many things uh it is wild but I will turn to Eric now eric do you have
55:12
something recently that you feel uh just does these things really well or that
55:17
you've really enjoyed uh it can be wow as well that's fine but I just curious if you got something i feel like Aliens
55:25
is where I want to go okay and Wow does kind of do that in a way that pleases me
55:31
and and I just I think in terms of like the whole universe and if there's life out there if there's real aliens if
55:37
there's intelligent aliens somewhere else they're not going to look anything like us and our if you took take a look
55:43
you know switching from fantasy to sci-fi if you look at the aliens that we have instead of talking about elves and
55:49
dwarves and goblins if we talk about grays and greens and you know predators
55:55
and xenomorphs like they look too much like humans they typically have two arms and two legs and they walk around and
56:00
they might be bigger or slower or different there like I like it when you get the big reveal of what the alien
56:06
looks like halfway through a movie and it's it like blows you away like watching okay some spoilers for alien
56:12
movies watching signs it's not a new movie but when the first time you see that alien I was like oh it's kind of
56:18
just like a weird goblin thing it's not that I I'd want to be blown away watching arrival and you have that mist
56:26
and then the alien comes down and it's the heptapod and it's this enormous weird thing that like thinks in time
56:33
like that was really cool for me was like yes if there's aliens on another world they're going to look completely
56:38
different from people because they look they would evolve in such different conditions why would different gravity
56:45
different atmosphere why would they look anything like us why would an alien have two arms and two legs unless you know
56:52
even if light intelligent life evolved at a different point on the Earth besides when it did it wouldn't have
56:57
come from apes it might have come from something else and in World of Warcraft we have different planets and we have
57:03
aliens and they kind of like look the same but like underneath that there's another layer like you have the full
57:09
creation everything and like that's the other thing I like when you really are a fan of something and it gets big enough
57:14
that they can keep adding to the story and keep filling in where it's not just a movie or it's not a novel series where
57:20
you read it and you're like that's it I wanted more in World of Warcraft you really get ongoing more details added
57:26
and more details added and yeah the orcs started as just an invading force of mean green people and then they added
57:33
actually they're from another planet and that's a little disappointing cuz they do look a lot like us but then on top of that it's like well we're getting all
57:40
the this information about the origins of the universe and why life exists at all and what uh you know it turns out
57:48
that the orcs came from these beings that came from beings that came from beings that originated with the Titans
57:53
and hey guess what we did too so like humans and orcs are completely unrelated on different planets but they sort of
57:59
have the same origin so when you get that much story is also something I appreciate when you actually get answers
58:04
to some of the questions you have and you know it's been a long time we're still getting those answers so hopefully we'll keep getting them and figure out
58:11
what the what's going on with the entire universe all right one of mine and this is something that I'm not going to spend
58:17
too much time on just because we're running out of time but uh I like the
58:22
depiction of dragons particularly in the Guild Wars lore um it's something that I've recently revisited cuz they just
58:28
released a new expansion and at some point I'll probably talk about it on one of the podcasts um but I like this idea
58:35
that to them the elder dragons are just primordial beings that are like tied to
58:41
nature they're they they are part of the world they are just there they're not
58:47
necessarily great destructors or great uh creators they're everything they're
58:52
just forces of nature and them doing what they do is just a cycle of nature
58:58
that shapes the world around it in the times between and in the times when they
59:04
are awake versus hibernating and they are eternal or is supposed to be eternal
59:09
and I like the idea of they're not just something you go and hunt they're they're not just something you go and
59:15
like you know take whatever horde or treasure they just are these massively
59:22
powerful things so that dragons are just kind of I don't want to say out of the realm of like the touch of a normal
59:28
human but unlike D and D or unlike even World of Warcraft or some of the other ones uh we're not we're not just
59:35
interacting with them on a regular basis if it's like a particularly normal everyday thing and it's back to being
59:42
this like sort of like titanic mythological creature that while you know it exists it's not quite the same
59:51
right and I I enjoy that i thought that was I think that's one of my favorite current interpretations of it i think it
59:57
works perfectly but I think that's going to do it for us today unless either of you have anything else to add oh yeah
1:00:03
absolutely now we're going to be talking about Sahog no I'm kidding
1:00:09
all right well friends I'm going to go ahead and give us your spiel here because Blizzard is made possible due to
1:00:14
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1:00:26
question answered on our podcast with the Q&A and answer reset experience i do want to thank you all for continuing to
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the lights on uh and you can also just send us messages on Patreon and Liz will
1:01:01
ensure that they get to us i do want to thank Eric for joining us on these last two episodes uh thank you very much Eric
1:01:07
hopefully you had a fun it was a thrill yeah thanks guys and thank you to Matt as always did you do you also did you
1:01:13
did you sign the documents cuz we need those before we can allow you to leave the chamber i I just I want to make sure
1:01:20
that that happened we're not supposed to tell them about that well he has to sign the document i don't Is that the axe you
1:01:26
handed me when I got in is there fine print on the We'll talk about it later
1:01:32
all right friends well with that we'll catch you next time [Music]
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