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Our listeners had a lot of questions for the Lore Watch crew this week, and they all center on Midnight, specifically the role of the Void and Old Gods. Is there another forgotten Old God waiting in the wings? Will all the Old Gods come back to wreak havoc during The Last Titan?
Perhaps most tantalizingly in light of the events to come, with all this Void power at her command, what exactly is the prize Xal'atath is here to seek?
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Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch Round Table for discussion about lore in your favorite media. I'm your host Joe Perez,
0:17
one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch. And I've got some marvelous co-hosts with me today as
0:23
always my stalwart companion Matt Rossy. How you doing today Matt? Let's do the show. Eager to get started. I love that.
0:30
And then rounding out this trio of trouidors is Eric ODay. How you doing,
0:35
Eric? Oh, not bad, Joe. Doing pretty good. How are you? I am doing great. I am no longer buried
0:41
under several feet of snow. Always a positive. Uh, so friends, I asked for
0:46
questions and you delivered. Thank you very, very much and make sure you keep those coming. If you have questions for
0:53
this or any of our shows, be sure to send those in to podcastardwatch.com. ask that you specify the show that it is
0:59
for in the subject line as well as any special pronunciation of your name. You can also hit us up on Discord. We have
1:06
the podcast Q and questions channel which is open for everybody. Same rules apply. And if you are a Patreon
1:11
subscriber, you can also hit us up on the Patreon Q and podcast questions channel. We tend to look there first as
1:17
a way of saying thank you for helping us keep the lights on. Uh and as of course we we we appreciate everything you do
1:23
for us. We wouldn't be here without you. Without further ado, let's get started. And this first one comes from Octo.
1:30
Listening to the most recent lore watch and hearing you talk about the forgotten one had me rolling that concept around
1:35
in my head. I haven't at all been convinced the fifth old god is accounted for. So what if being forgotten isn't
1:42
just a matter of being ancient, but a deliberate function of staying that way?
1:47
The false hydra, the oud, and Pennywise all come to mind in addition to the original origin of most cosmic horror in
1:55
Lovecraft. Do you think it's likely some form of this at play? Or if not, what
2:00
would you speculate they would do with another old god now that Zealot has dementious? Good question, Octo. Uh,
2:08
we'll kick this over to we'll say Matt first if you have any thoughts or anything you want to share on that one.
2:13
Well, I can never speak to how likely anything is. Um, things are as likely as
2:18
they end up being. It's it's a constructive narrative. It it's there's no gambling here. Uh, but I will say
2:25
that I think it's worth remembering that a lot of the narrative involving the old
2:32
gods and the titans and so on is malleable in more than one direction.
2:38
Uh, it's not just a matter of cosmic perspective. Things have literally changed. Uh, there have been things left
2:45
behind that turned out to not be accurate. There have been things left behind that were, you know, not entirely
2:53
intact. Uh there's lots of stuff we don't know about the Black Empire. Like for instance,
2:59
what it did for thousands upon thousands of years. I mean, it obviously had inhabitants and some of them like the
3:07
the Narubians we see in the war within clearly didn't want to go back to those days. Uh they were like, "Nope, nope. We
3:13
we've we've done this. We're not happy with it." And the Narubians in uh Anahe
3:19
and uh as Joel Narub they also seemed disinterested in the return of the
3:25
Titan. Uh remember the original when we were talking about the forgotten one. The forgotten one was a forgotten one to
3:31
them specifically. They did not want to remember him. They did not want to worship him. They did not want to
3:37
interact with him. Uh and they're, you know, they don't they're not like they don't have like Naki in their own cities
3:45
if they can avoid it. There's a Naki in uh old kingdom, but he's there very much
3:50
on the benefit of not of the Titan I not of the uh Narubians, but of their old
3:56
god, former masters, which they are trying to avoid being enslaved to again.
4:02
So I I don't know what it would be like if we had another old god. I just know
4:07
that we don't even know how many old gods there actually ever were. Like for
4:13
all we know, there were 30 of them. We we we just because we know about six doesn't mean that's all there was.
4:18
Mhm. Um and one of them we we know was constructed later. Like he's actually sort of built out of surplus old god
4:25
parts. Um Gahun there. So yeah, there's there's a lot of wiggle room. Yeah, lot
4:31
lots of wiggle room in terms of which uh what you want to think about the old gods and their existence. I don't think
4:38
Dementius really has much to do with it. Honestly, um we we've had back and
4:43
forths on this show about what what Dementius is. Is Dementius the last void lord like somebody said uh somebody
4:50
rhymes with with with Pretzel. Um or or is he something else? Is he an actual
4:57
god? I mean, or an actual void lord? Are there such things as actual void lords or do they only get discreet when they
5:04
leave the void? I I don't know. So, I do think it's it would be
5:09
interesting to try and play up the fact that there's no real truth for the old
5:15
gods. Like the void lords and the old gods come from a place where everything is true and therefore nothing is true.
5:21
The the thousand truths, remember? I would like it if we had straight up contradictions popping in and out that
5:28
that are never resolved because they shouldn't be resolved because they shouldn't be resolvable. Uh but that's
5:33
that's just my take on it. Right. Eric, what about you? I've got two things and first is that I absolutely agree with Matt when he says
5:40
that it's a constructive narrative in that when we try to figure out, you know, what's going to happen and if things are possible, it's not like we
5:47
are looking at a story that's already told and trying to figure out what comes next. We're we're not watching a movie
5:52
from 1975 and trying to figure out how Robert Redford is going to be able to
5:58
figure it out how to pull off the big heist because it already happened and
6:04
there's no chance of it changing. This story is constantly changing and what if
6:10
if it's useful for the developers and the writers to pick up a piece from a
6:15
long time ago, then they might do it. And so, and the writers and developers
6:20
change. Um, the forgotten one was something that was put into a game 25
6:25
years ago. Someone came up with that and put it in. Could it be that another writer would say like, "Hey, remember that?" Like,
6:31
that would be cool if we could actually pick up that piece. And we've seen them do that all the time, retcons and and tying things together and bringing back
6:38
things from way back. Um, so it's that's that's interesting, but also I totally
6:43
agree that we're we're trying to uncover something that's a a plane that's still being built as it's in the air for all
6:49
this time. And secondly, I like the idea behind this question. I like the idea
6:54
that there's another old god and its skill or its identity is hiding and
7:02
deception. That's always a good, you know, car a character trait in a bad guy. Um, that we have, you know, we have
7:10
the map of the old gods and the elemental lords having split up ancient Calumdor and all the territories mapped
7:16
out. There's no room for another one. But first of all, with that comes from the Titans, so they might be lying. We
7:21
know they've lied to us before. Second of all, there could be another old god that was hiding the whole time and
7:28
either working with or against or doing its own thing. And finally, could there
7:33
be another secret whisper old god in another location in another part of the world? We haven't seen all of Azeroth.
7:39
We're constantly seeing new continents and islands. Some of them fit into that original Calumdor. Some of them might
7:45
not. Maybe if we go to the Arai Empires land all the way across the ocean, could
7:51
it be that there's another old god all the way over there that we've barely interacted with at this point that's got
7:56
its tendrils going out? So, I think I think it would be very interesting and I think it could be something that we'd
8:02
have to deal with way down the line. I don't know if another old god would come in in Midnight or in The Last Titan, but
8:09
it's it could be interesting for past past that and in the future of World of Warcraft. Yeah, I I think I'm going to
8:15
start my set of comments with agreeing with both of you. And I think the folks at home understand that anything we say
8:22
is generally speculation because we can't know and because it can change at any moment in time to serve whatever the
8:28
creative directive whim is in that moment. I I'm going to say something
8:34
that may be a little bit unpopular for some folks. Uh so I will accept whatever backlash comes in. When Steve Denowser
8:41
and team were in charge of storytelling, it was coherent or at least they
8:47
attempted to make it coherent. The problem that you have right now too is with Chris Metson in charge of, you
8:54
know, creative endeavors again. Not that he's bad, but I always think of him in
9:00
terms of there was an old Family Guy like cutaway bit where it was like Stephen King trying to sell his next
9:06
novel to his publisher and he just like grabbed a lamp. It's like the next book is about a lamp monster and and I'm like
9:14
I've met Chris Chris Metson and he is a brilliant imaginative man but sometimes
9:20
he just veers off in these wild directions. he's very hard to predict what's going to catch his attention at
9:26
that time. And so a lot of his narrative stuff, even from the early days to what
9:31
became, you know, the storytelling of now, it doesn't necessarily have a
9:37
coherent uh, you know, flow to it at every every bend. Uh, which is why you
9:42
have a lot of those, you know, like Eric said, those those picked up threads that they can maybe pull on later, but that's
9:49
the reason why those threads exist. Um, there's a question that we'll deal with that a little bit later too that I think
9:54
is relevant. Um, so as far as the forgotten one being an old god that
10:00
maybe has a power that allows it to just essentially be forgotten, I'm not opposed to that because again, old gods
10:07
can do whatever. It's a million possibilities, thousand possibilities, infinite possibilities of what they
10:13
could do. in terms of how many old gods we've met. The other thing that's happened since we first encountered our
10:20
very very early old god when we first started uh dealing with Kathun uh and
10:25
going through and and learning what an old god essentially was since then and
10:31
then encountering bits of old gods later and you know the Build-A-Bear old god and all that other stuff. When we went
10:37
to Shadowlands, we learned that old gods existed on other planets and which means
10:43
in theory old gods can exist not just on other planets, but potentially other plains of existence or other realms as
10:50
well, which I I feel like if we're going to be bringing that one up, we have to talk about the OG old god, not an Azeroth
10:57
appearance, uh which was actually in Burning Crusade. Yeah. Uh when we you find a bunch of
11:02
Arakoa who are summoning what is almost certainly an old god considering it uses uh Kathun's model
11:09
with the cipher of damation. Yeah. Yeah. So are there other old gods?
11:15
Almost certainly. We've been seeing them for almost as long as we've had World of Warcraft. Yeah.
11:20
And that that guy clearly wasn't. Also, what's hilarious and terrifying is when you go to Alcatraz
11:27
and you go to Arcatraz and one of the first things that comes up is a multi-stage encounter with things that
11:33
are imprisoned. One of which is Harbinger um I want to say Harbinger Saram. Is that his name?
11:39
Something like that. Yeah. He's the one who's basically the ripoff of the first boss from AQ40. And
11:45
he has a little speech that I've never been able to forget. He's like, "We are as countless as the stars and no force
11:53
in existence." Carbon Skyus, sorry. Yeah. We are as countless as the stars and no force in existence has the power
12:00
to bring us to our knees, not even the mighty Legion. And that implies that
12:05
we're we're looking at this from the wrong angle in terms of how many old gods are there. Uh it it might not even
12:12
be the old gods you have to worry about. It's all the other things. Mhm. that serves uh the void lords
12:19
ultimately. Yeah. And the other thing is we know now too that things that serve the void lords and even things that serve the old gods
12:26
have uh can have incredible inordinate amounts of power, right? and depending on what they're corrupted from or or
12:33
born from because like an Surk and her experimentations
12:41
with the black blood kind of prove that they they sort of we talked about this uh last week or the week before about
12:48
how it gave us this idea of like potentially where Faceless Ones came from or how the evolution of old god
12:55
servants maybe uh sort of happened. what the black blood kind of does. Uh, and
13:01
that, you know, maybe that the Narubians were natural denisens of Azeroth at one
13:06
point that were, you know, mutated. But that also shows that weird potential, weird power can be unlocked. And in some
13:13
cases, servants of these beings can be more powerful than their masters at some point and break free. Uh, going with the
13:20
void lord route and looking at Zalat. Um, I mean, it took all four old gods
13:26
essentially to constrain her in the first place. All four original OG uh to constrain her in the first place. And
13:33
then she's more powerful than they are. She's what at this point even with our help she was able to use the dark heart
13:39
knows about it and is able to you know trap Dementius and now has access to that power to and I understand the root
13:46
of the question from Octo is how that deals with Zalot and Dementius cuz she doesn't have any love for the old gods.
13:53
They're beneath her. Her having more power just makes it easier for her to disrupt them if she comes up against it.
14:00
But it also depends on what old god where, what power it's wielding, what
14:05
world it's on, what dimension it's in. These are all variables that can create extra conflict. Go ahead.
14:11
There's another variable in that we keep assuming that she has access to Dimensions's power. We don't know that
14:18
that's the case. Mhm. And even if she does have access to some or even all of his power, we don't know
14:25
what his power was anymore. We know he got broke into practically infinite
14:31
shards and they spent an incredible amount of time recollecting him, but we don't know how much of him was even
14:37
recollected. Yeah, we don't know what percentage he was when we faced him at the end of the Manaport. Yeah. And one of the things
14:43
about these things we have to keep in mind is a lot of stuff we get a skewed view of because the game does a thing
14:49
called leveling where you get stronger in the new expansion. Even though it's a
14:55
numerical representation of experience, but it isn't intended to be literal.
15:02
You're not necessarily that much stronger than you were when you fought Ragnaros. Even though you fought Ragnaros back at the original level 60.
15:09
It's not intended to basically be your your character walks into Molten Core and just kills it in one shot. That's
15:16
that's not the lore of the game. That's not the story. That's a game mechanic. That's that's so you don't feel like a
15:22
chump for having gotten all that power and all those items and all those things that you you can still go farming for
15:28
stuff and so forth. I I I really feel like sometimes we forget this and we we look at like, well, you know, the the
15:35
Pantheon of Death was is way more powerful than, you know, the the Pantheon because they're they're from a
15:40
higher level expansion. It goes doesn't work that way. And it doesn't work that way with Dementia. So, the old gods going from War Within to Midnight. It
15:48
there's no story bump for for being five levels higher so players can get a
15:54
challenge out of fighting you. That's that's a mechanical thing that is not connected to the lore of the story. So,
16:00
what Zalat is doing and how it works and what power sources she has to draw upon,
16:07
honestly, she's obviously she's fallible because I doubt seriously she intended Ya to shoot the dark art out of her and
16:14
break it. Like that that does not feel like a good move. Um, even with the whole, you know, I'm trying to slowly
16:20
subvert Yria, that felt like a like a little bit of a goose egg there. So, I do think that's something to keep in
16:26
mind as we talk about all of this stuff. Uh, just because the old gods are not currently in the storyline doesn't mean
16:33
they're not as powerful enough to do anything. It just means they're not there for whatever reason.
16:38
Very true. Eric, any additional thoughts? Just something Matt said about the
16:43
speech from the Burning Crusade dungeon and being, you know, the old gods and their servants being as innumerable as
16:49
the stars. It's always struck me that we got old gods as an infection on Azeroth
16:55
and we got four. And that means that they sent enough old gods. The void
17:02
lords sent out enough old gods through the great dark beyond to infest planets and see what was there and try to
17:08
corrupt them that multiple old gods could be on a planet. That that suggests
17:13
to me that there might be thousands or millions. I mean, we don't know much about the the universe that we live in,
17:19
our plane of existence. How many planets are out there? Is it 10? Is it billions? But the the fact that there is that many
17:27
just for our world means that Yeah. they they they're almost like the foot soldiers of the void lords doing their
17:33
bidding and that like that you you can't put that much of your power into a million of something.
17:39
Yeah. I mean, the other side of that though too is we also don't know that we only got four. Um because we don't know
17:46
the full extent uh of like how many were there. We just
17:52
know that the largest ones took over, right? There there could have been thousands of them just flung into every planet or
18:00
like from what we the thing we we think we know um is that the void spewed bits
18:07
of itself into the for lack of a better term the prime material plane. Uh, and then you know, wherever they landed,
18:13
they landed. It was sort of like the the splatter approach. Wherever they they were, they were. Um, we don't know how
18:20
many wound up wherever. And in certain cases where they say, "Well, I thought an old god before." Looking at like the
18:27
former warrior of Aloon. Um, we don't know that it was only one old god. There
18:33
could have been 17 that showed up on that planet and only one was left standing because we know they fought with each other. They hated each other.
18:40
They only worked together when they had no other choice. Otherwise, they were at war with each other trying to knock the
18:46
other ones out. And we can assume trying to like take over as head honcho. So, in planets where, you know, there was one
18:54
uh old god, how many were there beforehand? And we can assume that when they got to Azeroth, they were all
19:01
fighting each other for dominance, not just making a a break for the core because they wanted to be the primary
19:07
influence. So there could have been a thousand that were all fighting and these are just the last ones left standing.
19:13
You just got me thinking about something here though. What if Yraj has seven heads for a
19:18
reason? Yeah, cuz he he was the largest and he was Maybe he was the largest because he ate
19:24
six others and because he and he was the most powerful, right? He had the most power out of all of them. And maybe that's
19:30
also why when when he got ripped into pimple parts, uh, he ended up scattered
19:35
in tentacle form all over the bloody continent because he was already
19:40
originally all over the bloody continent. Mhm. Um, there's there is something odd
19:46
about the fact that not only did we have, as you pointed out, the Build-A-Bear
19:51
of of old gods with Gahun, but everybody
19:56
looked down on on N'oth. Mhm. They all looked down on him. Uh, um,
20:04
Zalat even comments on this in Legion that that nobody respects N'oth. Yet in
20:10
the end, it's clearly N'oth who has control of the most forces. So, I mean,
20:15
we know that being dead doesn't stop the old gods from doing things. Uh, we see
20:20
that, you know, he's been dead for a very long time and yet, uh, Yash was still
20:26
beeviling the peoples of, you know, Sha and his own remains. Uh, we know that um, Kathun was
20:35
supposedly dead after um, Cho'GL found it and and got it to tell him how to
20:43
free the others. And that still didn't keep him from empowering Shogal all the
20:50
way into like Cataclysm. Uh, he's he's still he's still working with with
20:55
Gahun. He's not working with uh, N'oth. He's working with Kathun. So, there's
21:01
okay, Kathun, the same guy we supposedly killed. And I always thought about this
21:06
when I was thinking about that dungeon. Who of all the dragons would Kathun have
21:11
had beef with? The one that dies at the end of the raid. That's that's
21:17
interesting to me because it implies that Kathun, even while N'oth has got this whole plan involving eggs going on,
21:25
Kathun can still reach out and and say, "Okay, I don't care about any of that. Kill this dragon."
21:32
He has really offended me with this whole keeping me trapped in in here. I want him dead. That is your job. Kill
21:39
him. And he ends up dead. So there's there is a certain amount of I almost
21:45
feel like it's brinksmanship like they're they're trying to they're jockeying for position. Yes. But they're
21:51
also trying to raise the stakes and often times not just sabotage each other
21:57
but willfully ignore the others plans to in an attempt to make for maximum disruption. But yeah
22:05
this all kind of coming around and around in a circle to me. So I'll shut up now.
22:11
All right. All right. Well, I think that or at least I hope that answers your question or gives you some more food for thought. Octo, uh, we're going to move
22:18
on to our next one. And this one comes from Maxula Blaster from the Four Realms
22:24
Sisters of Aloon on the US side. Uh, eclipsedeyed Zelat keeps talking about
22:29
being denied her prize. We keep assuming the void lords or others of the void
22:34
were the ones that thwarted her. But what if it was Aloon? Well, I'll start
22:40
here. We don't know that the void lord stopped her because the only thing we
22:47
know so far is what we've seen from lore walking uh which is her being sent to I
22:54
don't want to say oversee but maybe check in uh you know the harbinger being
22:59
this the one to check in on what's going on on this planet where these old gods are supposed to be doing the bidding of
23:05
the void or the void lords and then being shoved in a knife. That's the only thing we really know about her being
23:12
thwarted. Um, as far as what her prize is, at least we've we've speculated on
23:18
it before, but the problem is we don't know. Zalot at her core is an almost
23:25
unknowable being changed certainly since being forced into this form in the mortal realms and in in a form of a
23:33
former mortal. There is an element of change that we can only assume is going to happen much like the void lords.
23:38
swinging bits of void into the the prime material plane and making them fleshy goo monsters. Uh which was apparently
23:45
not the uh original intention. Uh as we found from that very same lore walking
23:50
scenario uh that they weren't planned they weren't the plan uh and as such
23:56
they are not beholdened to their previous mission. So what her prize is I
24:02
think is beyond just simply power. We don't really know. We know that she
24:08
got a guess. Yeah, I mean, go ahead, Matt. I mean, we we we have guesses, but I mean, go ahead.
24:14
Yeah, my my theory is that looking at everything Zotath has done, it is
24:19
Azeroth itself that is the world soul of Azeroth that she is trying to claim. Um,
24:24
I don't know to what end. I don't know if she's going to try to fuse with it. Um, I don't know if she's going to go
24:30
the whole void titan thing. I don't know. But I definitely think it is Azeroth based on the fact that Azeroth
24:36
is the one having nightmares like when when in the past when the whole thing about the the fell uh the legion was
24:44
coming and then the the various old god minions and sats doing things to the
24:50
emerald dream all that stuff. We keep getting a sense that Azeroth is directly responding to what's happening. And it's
24:56
Azeroth that's directly responding in the war within. It is the the call of Azeroth that multiple people hear. I
25:05
think it is very similar to what she tried to do on Caresh. I think she was going for Caresh's world soul. She was
25:11
trying to get it away from Dementius and to a degree putting Dementius in the
25:16
dark heart is both a punishment for it getting in her way and also it's an
25:23
attempt to recycle some of that power. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. He's cuz remember Dimensionous was feeding on the
25:28
world soul of Caresh. Um and she definitely everything she did on Caresh.
25:34
If you look at all the things she did, all the assignments, the alliances she made, all the tricks she came up with
25:40
seemed aimed at ultimately getting rid of Dementius so she could claim it. Like
25:45
what were the what were the native peoples going to do when they all got turned into bandage, you know, energy
25:50
mummies? I mean, they weren't it's not like they could fight her. Was Nexus Walker gonna be able to fight her? No,
25:56
they they'd been maneuvered into a position where they'd effectively destroyed their own people. Um, and she
26:03
could reveal it anytime she wanted to to for maximum disruption amongst the people who otherwise be trying to stop
26:10
her from getting the world soul. Uh, unfortunately for her, the way it worked out, the world soul was all but
26:17
destroyed. I don't think it has enough power left to really do much for her. Um, so grabbing Dementius is a decent
26:24
backup. And you'll notice she immediately heads for the Sunwell. Another source of incredible font of
26:30
power that has been reignited with the essence of Anaru. Yeah. Yep.
26:36
That's not coincidence. And originally, the Sunwell was made with the same waters as the well of eternity, which was literally powered by
26:43
the blood leaking from Azeroth when it was injured during the original battle
26:48
against the old gods and their servants. So, I feel like I feel like there's
26:53
enough there to at least think this is at least a possibility. Uh, but whether or not it's actually the
27:00
case, we'll we'll have to wait and see. But that's that is my guess for what she's after. Eric,
27:05
I I would have bet my monthly transmog budget that Matt was going to say Azeroth was her prize. And I I I agree
27:12
with that. Um, and I think that trying to figure out one of the questions I was
27:18
gonna ask is if she's going after a world soul, why not Caresh? And then Matt kind of answered the question
27:24
before I even got to ask it, which is, you know, Caresh is maybe weakened, maybe not uh enough power for whatever
27:31
Zealot's grand plan is. But, and also, we should remember since we're talking about this, other world souls
27:37
have popped up. We've seen at least one besides Caresha's world soul. Um, and
27:44
that's our good old buddy Death from Argus. You know, the world soul of Argus. That thing was not as powerful as
27:52
Azeroth's world soul. That's from Magny. Like that thing was was stunted and crazy and it still turned into a
27:58
horrible nightmare monster that almost killed us and when we got sent to the Shadowlands immediately destroyed that
28:03
whole thing. Mhm. So imagine the difference in power between the destroyed, barely intact
28:10
world soul of Argus, I mean of of Caresh versus Azeroth's world soul, which is
28:17
clearly still going and not destroyed. So, I got to feel like the things we've
28:24
saw in the war within with the earthen definitely points to Azeroth and and for that matter in Dragonfly points to
28:30
Azeroth as a world soul being a very going concern as opposed to others we've run into. Yeah. Yeah. I think that not only maybe is it
28:36
more powerful, but like you guys have talked about multiple times before. Could it be special in some other way?
28:42
Could it be the presence of the, you know, the balance of the cosmic forces and Azeroth being the prime world soul
28:49
and the grand target of all these different cosmic entities for some other reason than it's the biggest and the
28:54
most powerful. And you know, anything we could talk about that is just speculation, but I it seems like we
29:00
might be headed towards getting some answers on that front in the next expansion or two. Yeah, I definitely agree. I think we're
29:06
going to be getting a lot more in the way of answers especially because Zelth is going to start likely I don't want to
29:13
say ex like giving an expose or or or like you know doing this whole rundown
29:18
of what she's doing but she's got a streak of the villain in her and you know sometimes she likes to do that. Monologuing is a villain's prerogative.
29:26
Um, but I will disagree with you guys a little bit. And I I think that if we're
29:32
going to speculate, I don't think Azeroth is the ultimate prize. I think it's beyond Azeroth. I think control or
29:40
the power of Azeroth is a means to an end, one that we don't quite understand
29:47
yet. And it's because of little things she said. Um, she doesn't I don't she
29:52
doesn't want to see the destruction of the universe. That's not really her bag. at least not from what we can tell and
29:57
what she's done with because otherwise she has the ability to wipe out civilization. She has the ability to
30:03
just claim power. That doesn't seem to be her mo. Uh she could let it be to the whatever devouring force is coming to
30:10
consume all of us. She doesn't seem to like that either. And we've speculated many times because the void doesn't want
30:15
that essentially. I don't think anything that exists in the universe necessarily wants that. But she also doesn't seem to
30:22
really serve the void lords or anymore either. And Azeroth may be the key to
30:27
what she wants, but I think it's ultimately like the final stepping stone
30:32
to to get what she ultimately wants. And that's the problem. We don't know what the endgame is because I don't think
30:41
it's necessarily corrupting Azeroth cuz she could have tried doing that a couple different ways and there are probably
30:47
easier ways than what she's doing. Uh she's going after the Sunwell, which is not a void entity, but could potentially
30:54
be turned to void power. Again, because it's got that Naru inside of it, and they do have a light dark cycle, we
30:59
might wind up with the void well before the end of this uh expansion hell uh even before the end of act one uh in the
31:06
next expansion even happens. Um but it seems to all be turning towards a
31:11
greater purpose. And again, not much that we can really
31:17
predict, but maybe she wants to beat up the void lords. Maybe she wants to be in charge of everything. Maybe she wants to
31:23
claim the universe as her own. But it feels like Azeroth is a key, not the final, not the not the the prize. Like
31:31
cuz once she has it, she's not done. I think there's more that she wants to do. At least that's my opinion. So I don't
31:37
know if you have anything else you guys want to add to that or anything else you want to talk about with that before we move on to the next one. No, I think I
31:44
said what I meant to. Okay. Yep. Just All right. Our next one comes from Xite. Uh we've answered a couple questions
31:50
from them in the past and this one is a trio of questions. So, we'll we'll just kind of go one by one and see how far we
31:56
get. Uh first one, with midnight around the corner and the continued talks of the Last Titan expansion, should we
32:02
expect old gods to return before or after the Last Titan expansion? I know old gods are hard to kill, but I wonder
32:07
if the likes of Kathun or others making a reappearance. Maybe them coming back might get the Titans to show up. Maybe
32:14
where might the old gods show up in the world? Uh I guess this kind of goes in
32:20
with what we've been talking about a little bit uh as well earlier. We don't know, right? We know Matt pointed out
32:27
that Yash is air quote dead, but not really. all the bits are still
32:33
influencing things around, can still give power, can still have a will of its own. Um, and that may tie back to the
32:39
fact that, you know, Yash may have eaten six other old gods and may have had seven consciousnesses inside of itself.
32:46
Uh, that they were released as the seven original Sha. Maybe that they they're
32:51
already present everywhere and we don't know. Um, and as far as where they can make a reappearance, again,
32:58
possibilities are sort of endless. The other thing that is interesting though is pointing out that, you know, the likes of Kathun,
33:05
we as players really haven't gone back and checked on the ones we've kind of put in boxes before, at least in the
33:12
story. And something comes to mind here. We Yagsana and Northrren uh sitting
33:19
there in Ulawir is a major story beat. It's a major Titan facility that's still
33:24
functional that had an old god prison in the middle of it that they had broken out of kind of. I we know that when we
33:33
tried to use the reorination device to blast N'oth into uh little particles and
33:39
sort of laser him, give give Azeroth some laser surgery that Aldoir hung up
33:45
on us. We know that Odin at one point was going to be heading there because we
33:51
freed him from his little bubble and the first thing he was going to do is go check in on the home base which is literally where his Valhalla his his
33:59
little land of of uh you know fallen warriors his his little prison
34:05
originally was part of the watchers being still alive there. We know that Raen was at, you know, was active for a
34:12
little while, but Aldoir cut us off. Is that because Yagsaron is waking back up?
34:19
We didn't really do anything once that body was gone. And Matt and I have pointed this out in the past. Uh, senite
34:27
was everywhere throughout Northrren. It wasn't just in the middle of Aldar. That pool you walk into of liquid sinite that
34:34
surrounds Yagsaron, that's not the only location of it is. We found senite in
34:39
the remnants of the old world tree which I feel is relevant potentially here as well. Uh ice crown citadel is
34:46
constructed of it in a lot of places. Uh a lot of the weapons of the the knights
34:51
of the eban blade a lot of the armor of the knights of the eban blade rely on saranite. A lot of the stuff in north in
34:57
general are use liquid old god blood uh to construct their metals and and what
35:03
they were what they were doing. That is not an accident. And slight spoilers
35:09
ahead for this one. We know we're going back to Northrren at some point and I would be very shocked if that does not
35:16
play a story beat in it at all because again unlike recent expansions, we
35:23
haven't gone back to Northrren in game as far as like story beats are concerned. We haven't checked in on our
35:30
handiwork. We haven't really seen if we if we kept anything like if it's been good. Go ahead, Matt.
35:36
We did go back to one place. Uh we went back to the uh Wormrest Rest Temple because that's where the uh events of
35:45
the final raid in Cataclysm take place. Yeah, but we also Yeah, we also know
35:50
that during that moment during that moment, there were two giant old godlike sandworms opening up that we had to go
35:55
inside and fight literally right there. Absolutely. But I'm saying all I'm saying is that's the only place we've
36:00
seen since. We haven't gone back to anywhere else. I mean, I guess we made some appearances at the Nexus,
36:06
but that's like way the heck over on the edge of the Boran Tundra. And that's actually another thing to
36:12
point out, uh, not only could you find Sarinet anywhere. Like literally,
36:17
there's nodules of it all over the place. But there when you go to the Howling Fjord, there's literally a
36:23
section to the north where the entire for lack of a better word, the entire like zone has been sheared in half. And
36:31
not sheared in half like up north, south or east, west. It's literally a gigantic
36:36
shear underground. Like you can go down and then suddenly you are in this this
36:42
enormous open space that looks like someone ripped something out of the ground. And there's everybody there is
36:48
going mad from whisper. And I mean, couldn't get more stereotypically old
36:53
god if there was a giant sign being held up going, "Hi, it's us, the old gods."
36:58
Like, it's straight up out of their plate. But one of the things we never find out is what's the deal with it?
37:05
Like, why is this happening? And there's certain amounts of time that they several times they try to mention that
37:12
it's the the the various um earn like the the iron earn and the iron vool are
37:20
directly working for ultimately Lo cuz Lo is sitting there having gone crazy a
37:26
long time ago working for directly for Yagsaron. And we see that again when we
37:33
go back to Al to you know not um Aldoir but uh Aldeon and uh you know the zones
37:39
beyond it in the south of of Kalindor you see yet another city the the halls
37:46
of origination where you've got these Titan constructs being controlled by the old gods. Um, so the old gods are really
37:52
good at getting into and infecting these these buildings of other be of beings
37:58
and we see that over and over again in terms of what the old gods are up to. So yeah, there's a it's very possible
38:04
Kathun just walked it off um for that matter. Uh we can't really the only one
38:10
we know for sure is dead is Yash and even then was still doing stuff until
38:16
fairly recently might still be doing stuff. I mean, we can't prove that all the sha are gone. So, yeah, I think
38:22
going back to Alderman to uh Northrand is really important just to see if we
38:27
ever like if there's any more stuff going on. Keep in mind that the the the
38:32
the death knights are still hanging out. Well, at least they were as of
38:38
Shadowlands. They were still hanging out in ice clown on Ice Crown Glacier. Yeah.
38:44
What's up with that, guys? Could you know got anything? got any, you know, feedback for us? Anything? Anything you
38:50
tell us about all that sinite you're wearing on your dead bodies? Uh, got got something cuz there's a lot to possibly
38:56
know and not a lot we've been told. They're always talking about how they're the old gods are deathless. They're out
39:02
of the cycle. They're all they do all that time is but a door, death is but a window. I'll be back. So, anytime that
39:08
it's like, well, that entity is vanquished and you have an NPC, you know, brushing their hands and moving on
39:14
to the next thing, you're always a little bit like, I'm not so sure. So, we've seen countless characters come
39:21
back from death or bring brought back as avatars or have, you know, their death
39:27
be just a minor setback. So, I would not be surprised if we had to deal with one
39:33
or all of them. Uh, could could the old gods be something like a hive mind where, you know, the whole continent of
39:41
Northrren is under the influence of Yagsaron and we took off a head or an
39:46
arm, but you know, the rest of it just kind of still exists and you have to you have to pluck it out.
39:52
Yeah, Joe made that point a while back actually. I think when talking about the what we discovered about world trees uh
40:00
at the end of Dragon Flight, you're talking about the the sheer size of the old gods. Yeah, about how they're
40:06
just they are unknowably large. And I mean I was sort of reinforced in that by looking at what happened right now when
40:12
we went down to uh Bugville in the War Within. Like looking at those caverns,
40:18
those caverns to me, and I will maintain this until I am told otherwise uh looks
40:24
ex like what would happen exactly when you ripped out an old god from the uh surface of Azeroth. So like they're
40:30
massive. Yeah, that one's really easy to believe, too. And I'm sorry, Eric. I'll shut up in a second. But that's easy to believe,
40:36
too, because there's so much black blood around it. And not only that, the ceiling, like the scarring, the void scarring in
40:41
particular, or that or that, you know, when you get up to the surface and it looks like the petrified remains of a gigantic tree
40:47
trunk. We talked about that before. And the other thing that made me think, going back to the Ashrage thing about
40:53
possibility of the old gods having consumed other old gods, is one of the things that I thought was interesting,
40:59
and it may have just been a stylistic choice. Sometimes that happens or it may be something more than that. Sometimes
41:05
that also happens. Go and look at the ceiling of that zone and tell me what
41:11
you see there. Those constellations look a hell of a lot like what we saw when
41:17
the rest of the pantheon was imprisoned and being tortured in in in Argus,
41:24
right? Like they look they look like patterns of souls. Not saying that they are, but it wouldn't be surprising to me
41:31
if Yasharazzi was trying to unravel what that looked like and trying to mess with that to better understand how to either
41:39
a consume other souls or b infect Azeroth. So, sorry Eric, go ahead.
41:45
The last thing I wanted to say was that something that we were talking about here in the last bit of this question, where might the old gods show up? Would
41:52
coming back, would the old gods coming back make the titans show up? We know that the Titans will show up based on
41:58
what we know, the few things we know about the last Titan. The Titans return to Azeroth to Ulawir. What if that is
42:05
Zealat's true prize, true goal? What if instead of destroying the universe or
42:11
ruling the universe, all she really wants to do is take out other cosmic entities of, you know, equal or greater
42:19
power? What if she wants to wipe out the Titans? And we have hints of that. That's what um the stone dragon, why
42:26
can't it? Eriticron, that's what Eriticron said. Erdicron tells us that it's with this she'll she'll reclaim it
42:32
and the Titans will show up. What if Irron and Zalot bonded over just hating
42:37
the Titans so much and work together to start a plan to actually get them there
42:42
in a form where they can be fought? Um would the old gods be a part of that? I
42:48
don't know. Maybe I wouldn't put it past Zalat to do some use the power of the Sunwell or the void well or whatever it
42:54
becomes to revive old gods or take their power or have an avatar of them that we
42:59
have to fight or the Titans have to fight. Um, but I could see all of it being mixed together and and old gods
43:05
coming back in some form. I I do want to point out to one one other thing since I've been thinking about if we're going to talk about
43:11
locations, keep in mind that the tight the old gods don't have to appear in a location that actually exists. Yeah. Uh,
43:18
learning nyloa. Yeah, I was going to say dealing with nyloth. Nylotha didn't technically exist. Yeah. Nylotha was like a afterimage
43:26
slashecho that did not obey the laws of space and time and which essentially was
43:32
like what if we rebuilt the black empire in the future and then projected it back into the past so that it would always
43:39
be. And it's like, so you're just deciding to like, you know, dance dance
43:46
dance on top of causality. But that makes sense for the old gods who alter history all the time. That's one of the
43:52
reasons Normu had to even have a flight was because he had to have people there to stop the old gods from messing with
43:58
time again. Um, so there's a lot of, you know, literally this place didn't exist
44:04
yesterday, but it's here now that you could totally do with the the old gods and their various places. Um,
44:11
ironically, Nyallotha, which is one of the more well-known places in in the old
44:17
god, you know, travalog that we have, was built by N'oth and was specifically
44:24
targeted by, you know, Zalot. In fact, the whole reason she got stuck in a
44:30
knife in the first place was cuz she tried to take out Nos and got caught.
44:35
And it wasn't just her. That's where the uh the fighting of the other old gods was occurring too. Like don't forget
44:41
when we go back in time. Uh we go back to Nylotha and it's the elemental
44:47
generals for the other old gods are there. The only one missing being theane. Um but like they were all there
44:55
in Nyalatha assaulting Nilatha. Why? What was going on? Was it just a normal
45:00
conflict? Was that orchestrated by Zelat? You know, I mean, it might have been it might have
45:06
been the opening of the whole bit to take them over with the uh cipher of damnation, but we don't know. We have no
45:12
idea who if they were under control of the old gods when they were attacking Ayotha. Why would the other old gods be
45:17
attacking Ayotha? Lots of reasons. For one thing, they didn't respect N'oth. Mhm. Um, but also quite possibly as part
45:25
of whatever Zatas's plan for attacking Nolotha was, which we've never found
45:31
out. Um, it certainly could be part of that plan was get them all distracted
45:37
fighting stuff in in in Nylotha so nobody can see me do whatever it is I'm
45:42
trying to do. Yeah. I think we're going to move on to the second question here because I think this is also potentially uh relevant and
45:48
something that I know that I've been thinking about a lot uh which was do you believe Queen Azar will be around for
45:54
midnight with a great powerful influx of power uh coming from the Sunwell and uh
46:00
they already have the dark spine Naga on the island uh they could be spies or
46:05
scouts. Eric, what do you think? Could what do you think we'll see Queen Azara
46:11
soon? I think so. I think she's been biting her time and has, you know, made her
46:16
escape long enough ago that it seems silly for her to sit this one out to to
46:24
try for for her to try something of of of whatever her grand plan is. I mean, we know that when she the last time she
46:30
left, she said she was going to claim the true throne of power for herself. Uh
46:35
maybe that true throne of power was the Sunwell or something similar to what Zalat is after. Um, we got kind of like
46:43
a little preview on the Siren Isisle with the Naga forces there attacking and
46:48
trying to claim the island and and the things going on there. So, I think
46:54
enough groundwork is laid that if if we saw her appear later in the expansion,
47:01
uh, it would it would make total sense. Yeah, I'm I'm in the same camp. I think that it's going to be impossible for
47:09
Queen Ajara not to make an appearance soon. One, the last time we saw her, she
47:14
was being tortured by old gods, by Zealot essentially. Um, she doesn't have
47:20
any love for Zealot. And if Queen Ajara is nothing, she is absolutely
47:27
retribution material. So, I think that if Zalat is messing with things and
47:33
messing up her plans, you're almost assuredly going to see her pop up and be
47:38
like, "Nah, nah, lady. This is my world. This is my power. Get off this rock."
47:44
Um, she hasn't yet because she's either a been licking her wounds and recovering from the last time we saw her, or b uh
47:51
as is her prerogative, doing something absolutely unknowable or unfathomable to
47:56
us. because again she is arguably the most powerful s like sorcerer or wizard
48:04
magic wielder on Azeroth still and that is not insignificant
48:11
uh with the elves reuniting and we we've talked about this in the past Queen
48:16
Ajara is not a fool she's egotistical narcissistic
48:22
and self-focused but she is not a fool she understands what power and strength is. And I think
48:30
she also understands what happens if Zalot wins. So even if she didn't have a
48:35
personal grudge of you put me in a box and avoid prison and tortured me while everybody around me played soccer. Yeah,
48:42
I I think she would still show up if for nothing else to take what Zalat has as
48:49
her own power. Maybe not necessarily the void, but could you imagine what Queen Azar would do if she got her hands on
48:55
the dark heart? what she might be able to do with it. She could do a lot of very dangerous things with it, but I
49:02
don't think we've seen the last of her. I think we will see her. I would be surprised if not in this expansion. The
49:08
other thing from a game and story perspective, I think there is a reason
49:15
that we were in Legion Remix and I think it will be relevant to what's coming
49:20
next. I think that was a deliberate choice to go to Legion next. A lot of us were commenting and we commented on the
49:26
main show that Legion felt like too soon of an expansion to do a time running
49:32
event for or to do that remix time running event for. But I think there is a reason and I think threads from Legion
49:40
are probably going to be pulled on here in Midnight. I think it's relevant and
49:46
one of the major voices, one of the major aspects of it was Queen Ajara,
49:51
especially with her getting the tide stone still. She has it. She still has it, right? Uh we don't other know what
49:58
other things she made off with because when we go and put the pillars of creation in various different uh parts
50:05
of the Temple of Aloon, we go and fight our battle and then we kind of, you know, saunter off into the night and she
50:12
got the tide stone. There's no saying that she didn't grab some of the other ones as well. You never know, Matt.
50:19
Well, I think there's a few things we're not really paying attention to right now that relate to Char in one way or
50:24
another. Uh, first up is, of course, the most obvious, blatant, and so far uh
50:32
upfront villain we've got is Zalot. Zalot used to live inside a knife. And
50:37
of all the people in Azeroth, Ashara has both had time to study that knife.
50:43
Yeah, she did. And had time to to study N'oth's binding
50:49
rituals. Yep. She worked for N'oth for a very long time. If anybody wanted to put her back in the
50:57
knife and could do it, it would be Ashar because she knows how the knife worked.
51:03
She knows how the binding rituals worked and she knows it was Naz'ath who put her in the knife in the first place. So
51:10
that's that's part part the first. Part the second. In an expansion called the
51:15
last Titan, we keep talking about Titans. There is one Titan who does
51:20
still have his physical body and it's not any of the Pantheon. It's an
51:26
ex-member of the Pantheon. Mhm. Namely Sargeras. Sarger. Well, his original body, at least. His
51:32
original body. Well, the reason I say his physical body is because we don't know for sure what
51:40
world he turned into Mardum. But it's keeps striking me he deliberately
51:46
created out of his out of a world a prison for demons. And it was such a
51:51
good prison that they could only get out on his say so. And this makes me wonder,
51:57
what if Mardum was Sargeras's physical body? Yeah, I've been I've been wondering that for a few, you know, dozen years.
52:04
So, since we know that one of the things he did on that world was create a prison that could hold demons and keep them
52:10
from getting back to the Twisting Nether, and we know he specifically bound demons into magical items, like
52:16
for instance, several of the artifacts that we see, both Warlock and otherwise.
52:22
And we know that the binding magic that Sargeras possessed was capable of even
52:28
to this day calling demons to come check out what you want because you know if
52:33
you don't then you might get suckered into getting sucked into something. I feel like Sargeras possibly with with
52:42
some to domination magic because it's very similar in terms of binding both to
52:49
the cipher of damnation and to what we see the Titans have taught other people
52:55
that becomes demon summoning magics. Uh all of this makes me think that the
53:01
reason the Legion was picked for remix I think you were right in terms of it's one of it's got a some resonance. I
53:07
think one of the resonances it has is the Lich King. Yeah, I would agree. And I think the Lich King and the the
53:14
Helm of Domination and now the Crown of Wills. Uh this is all stuff we're going
53:19
to see come back up. Um not that I think the Crown of Wills is currently on the
53:25
replacement uh Arbiter. Um if I'm not insane. Uh I think he's currently
53:30
wearing it. Yeah, the Arbiter is currently wearing it. That doesn't mean they can't get it off them. They they've got a they they you
53:36
know they got rid of one. So yeah, there is there's a lot of possibility in terms
53:42
of what I think we might see. But imagine if Sargeras did come back. Yeah. I think
53:47
the first thing Ashara might do is attempt to convince him to do what she
53:52
wants and she's had 10,000 years of dealing with ny all powerful cosmic
53:59
entities and winning like she got what she wanted out of N'oth. He didn't end
54:04
up getting anything from her really. All she had to do is put up with like what? A couple of weeks of torture for
54:11
at her age. That's like a That's a weekend. That's a weekend spa. Like, oh
54:16
yes. Oh, please don't torture me anymore. Like, okay, now I get to leave. Yeah, remember to use the knife.
54:22
Remember to use the knife on this off. uh just feels an awful lot like she's
54:28
got a lot of time going to to try and Xanitos gambit her way into Sargeras's good graces and then end up leaving him
54:36
holding the check. That's that just feels like the kind of thing she would do. So I'm just going to point that out that that is another possibility that to
54:42
keep in mind. Yeah. The other possibility too and like this is not Azara but like just you
54:47
mentioned Sargeras so now I'm I've been awoken. Um there is an entire possibility that you know we find
54:53
ourselves on the same side as Sargeras again. um where we find out what the the truth of the uh titans were and part of
55:02
that happens to be you know the information that Queen Ajara gives us or
55:07
we find out because of her and her uh knowledge and working with N'oth cuz again we haven't talked with her since
55:14
and we don't know what she knows and it might serve her to have us fight the
55:19
Pantheon right and like you said it may be an instance where she turns to uh you
55:26
know turn Sargeras into essentially her Aaron boy. Um but also it could be that
55:32
Sargeras was right all along and what he was trying to do was actually the right call and Queen Ajara may find that out
55:40
and she is nothing if not a self-preservationist. you can everything else aside you can
55:46
you can you know assure that and if it suits her and it suits her continued uh
55:52
you know push for power then I don't see how or why she wouldn't do so we I don't think we've seen the last of her I think
55:59
we will see her it might be as early as this uh you as midnight it might be this
56:05
current expansion that we see her um I don't know when but I do know we will
56:10
Eric any other thoughts on that one thing is that she is of Azeroth and
56:16
we spend so much time dealing with entities that are from elsewhere with
56:21
Zalat and the Titans and the void lords that Ashara is from a race that
56:29
originated on Azeroth possibly before any of their meddling. So, if we were
56:34
going to have someone, you know, represent us on Azeroth, as kind of a
56:40
theme through all of World of Warcraft, that like we, the inhabitants of Azeroth, are special. We are able to do
56:46
things that no other world's inhabitants have been able to do, defy the Titans
56:51
mandates and things like that. Could she be uh a champion or a leader of the
56:58
Denisens of Azeroth? So, it would be interesting to see her come back. Not, you know, bursting out of the ocean with
57:04
10,000 Naga with trident saying, "I'll take the dark heart now or, you know, like Matt said, she's used to biting her
57:10
time." So, we it'd be more likely that she would just appear at exactly the right moment to, you know, assert her
57:17
power or try to steal, you know, foil Zalat's plans. But what if she realized that Eric you're making
57:24
me think of just imagining like Salatas on the dis holding the thing above her head going and now finally then you hear
57:30
yoink and just tittling over what what just happened
57:36
just a really long trident just picks it up yeah I'm going to get you just I don't
57:41
know why you just made me think of it sorry man but like we keep thinking of will she come back will she be a raid boss will
57:47
she will we have to deal with her like what if she's looking at everything that's happening and realizing that all
57:53
the power she's been gathering and all the things that she's done have been, you know, not for the best and she
58:00
realizes, you know, I need I need the power of Sargeras and then we can save Azeroth and then we can claim it. I
58:06
don't know. I'm just saying that maybe we won't see her in in the vein of having to defeat her again. Maybe she'll
58:12
show up as a neutral party. Maybe she'll show up as an ally. I would love it if she went and dug up Zavius and
58:17
resurrected him and then went and got Saras was like, "Look, Xavius, my real boyfriend's here."
58:22
Yeah. Just makes Zavius feel worse. Yeah. I mean, let's I mean, anything that makes Zavius feel worse, I'm on
58:28
board for. Uh, but I think that's going to do it for us today, friends. Uh, again, I do
58:36
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