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Join us as we discuss an alternate universe for the Diablo franchise where Prince Aidan never embedded the soul stone into his head to become the vessel for Diablo at the end of the first game. How would the lack of this pivotal moment radically alter the events of Diablo II, III, and IV?
The discussion delves into alternate outcomes for Sanctuary, the Worldstone, and humanity, while speculating on the role of angels, demons, and the spirit realm in this strange new, yet still terrifying world. It is Diablo after all. It’s not all gonna be happy cow level rainbow times no matter the butterfly effect.
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[Music]
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hello and welcome to lat Round Table free form discussion about Laur your favorite media I'm your host Joe pre one
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of several lore Focus folks from blizzard watch and I've got my marvelous companion with me today Matt Rossy how
0:21
you doing today Matt I am here in talking and going last
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patreon.com blizzardwatch uh or go to blizzardwatch page but without further Ado uh now that
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bookkeeping is done let's go ahead and get into some questions here uh and this one comes from tanari just catch you up
2:38
on some episodes after a busy year and I just got into the what if episodes I'm still a bit behind so sorry if it's
2:43
already been asked but in Diablo what if we never shoved the Soul Stone into our head at the end of Diablo 1 now I put
2:51
this in here specifically because Matt loves Diablo and I really just wanted to kind of shake him up and set him loose
2:56
and see what the windup man would do so do you have thoughts or opin opinions on this Matt well actually funny enough
3:02
I've been thinking about it um not related to this question I just think about this kind of thing and let me put
3:09
this way I think vessel of hatred gives us a pretty good idea of what would happen um in that he' have been walking
3:17
with a soul stone that was no longer fully containing the Primeval inside it
3:23
rather than having it inside his head turning him into a you know what he was it would have been acting much as the
3:29
one that that Nel was carrying was so forcing him into delusions uh causing
3:36
explosions of in his case Terror instead of Rage uh and you know corrupting the
3:41
area around him much as um Nel's did to her uh you'll notice that Nel didn't go
3:48
through a lot of physical corruption whereas obviously by the time he got to where he was going the physical shell of
3:55
Aiden was all but gone like Diablo had fully converted it and that's the thing is in the the events of the first Diablo
4:03
kind of give us a sense there's lots of reasons why we have to think carefully about this uh first up the Soul Stone
4:09
that Nel was carrying had a weakened form of ball in it but that not not of
4:14
ball a Fisto I'm sorry wow well a real quick question I want to ask you real quick about that wasn't also the the
4:20
Soul Stone that Nell was using not originally designed for misto and also
4:26
okay perfect we same wonderful um basically that's Soul Stone had a lot of qualifiers first qualifier was that it
4:32
was originally the Soul Stone that Donan made to to contain uh the Duke of
4:37
cinders ashtaroth and not a prime eval it wasn't made to hold a prime eval the
4:44
only reason it worked at all was because they reat tuned it but also because ball
4:50
keep saying ball Mesto was weakened uh the Mesto we Face had just gotten back
4:55
into the hell's you know in demonic terms relatively recently uh he's been
5:01
regenerating and regrowing his power but he wasn't fully he wasn't at his
5:07
Peak now the the Soul Stone Diablo was in was made to hold Diablo but it had
5:13
been weakening over time because the soul Stones aren't permanent solutions they they do erode in in corrupt
5:20
overtime and he was at full power in that thing he wasn't weakened at all
5:26
he'd been a servant of mistos had come to Tristan specifically to find him and
5:33
then begin putting him into people he was going to put him into the king but
5:39
leoric died and became the Skeleton King because he went insane so he had to put
5:45
him in the King's son instead uh when he when he did that the arc wasn't dead yet
5:51
he wasn't a skeleton king yet but he was going crazy he was too crazy to be useful as a host um he essentially
5:56
broken but he still had a strong enough will that Lazarus was like all right if he can be this much of a Maniac but
6:03
still exist this might not work so I'm gonna have to go with the kid the kid's not going to have the willpower to stop
6:09
a demon so he put the Soul Stone essentially he put the Soul Stone into
6:14
uh the younger brother I always want to say his name was Al was alre alre whatever his name was put the Soul Stone
6:20
into him turned him into Diablo but then he wasn't a full power Diablo because it was a kid so when Aiden came he and his
6:28
his two buddies killed what they thought was Diablo it turned back into Aiden's brother Aiden snapped
6:34
seeing all this and I'm pretty sure the Soul Stone started whispering in his head stick me in your head um and Aiden
6:41
was like yeah that'll work uh if Aiden hadn't done that he would have basically had some advantages that Nell didn't
6:49
have like being a fully grown adult with two friends with him who were both like you know hey we maybe we shouldn't do
6:55
that um but he would have had the the disadvantage of going up against a a
7:00
fully powered primeval one of the three primes at full power whereas Nel had
7:07
this disadvantage of that Soul Stone not originally being having been made for Diablo that Soul Stone having been
7:12
broken they had to rebuild that thing remember they had to like use Elemental like alchemical Quicksilver and so forth
7:18
oh yeah reassembled like the pieces like a jigsaw almost so it was already it
7:24
wasn't even in perfect shape to hold him it wasn't designed for him uh it wasn't
7:30
directly made by an Angel um only two beings have been shown to be able to
7:37
make perfect soulstones or as close to perfect as we're going to get um the first one being tyriel tyriel helped
7:44
make the original Three and even they started failing afterward the other one is zultan cool zultan Cool's Black Soul
7:51
Stone could hold Angels or demons and we have no idea how long they could do it
7:57
but they could do it long enough that the guys who died in Diablo I were still in it in Diablo II both uh even ball was
8:06
in it ball dies at the end when the soulstone chamber gets blown to Hell ball Stone ball dies there he ended up
8:13
in the Black Soul Stone yeah the inter he stayed in it well not only did he stay in it I want I think it's interesting to point out we didn't see
8:19
any obvious signs of bleedout either right like it's one of those weird things where like the black Soul Stone
8:26
may have actually been a perfect artifact created by zolan Co who I mean
8:32
zultan Co is one of my favorite characters in Diablo history because dude was just an absolutely ego man
8:38
egomaniacal Maniac but also his ego was partially earned and then when it came
8:44
to like the creation of the black soulstone I think that sort of like proves it dude was a genius when it came to manipulating alchemical and magical
8:51
formula um not just that cool was a was a recognizable Nephilim yeah yeah 100%
8:58
he and he was tapping into it in time co could have risen to the power of say
9:05
larian AKA RMA I I think he might have he might have actually been able to
9:10
surpass him just because of his knowledge of how power works yeah and and because he he studied the soul
9:17
Stones because he understood that they could work on both Angels and Demons if properly configured the fact that he
9:23
made the Black Soul Stone the Black Soul Stone apparently is a near perfect container it is the soul stone that all
9:30
other Soul Stones wish they were with the only cave being that their weaknesses that somebody from the outside could in theory you know crack
9:38
or m shape them which is what we saw during Diablo I right yes exactly the
9:43
other problem being not only could they do that they could draw upon the power of the primes inside all all seven of
9:49
them all the seven evils that are inside the Soul Stone if you have them all there you can draw upon the power of all
9:55
of them and that's kind of terrifying uh also when you cut a piece of the Black
10:01
Soul Stone off it essentially becomes a resonator that tells you where the Black Soul Stone currently is and that's
10:07
interesting because that implies that the black soul St it is my opinion that the soul stones are and always have been
10:13
related to the world Stone like I believe they were made from pieces of the world Stone I don't know if it says so in the lore or not but I that's what
10:20
I believe but anyway getting back to it so you've got Aiden and one assumes blood Raven and uh I can't remember the
10:27
Wizard's name I'm sorry but those two coming along trudging along with him as he tries to get to the tomb where Tasha
10:35
is he's not going to be picking up Marius which is important because Marius is important to what happens in in the
10:42
setting so he's trudging along now the the fury of the Lord Of Terror inside
10:48
the Soul Stone is going to be warping the land around him it's going to be attacking him mentally keep in mind that
10:54
there's a witch in Tristram who works for Diablo and who in our Tim right what
11:02
or what why can't I remember her name now Adria adri why did I say Adra close enough because close enough when he
11:08
comes out of the when he comes out of that Cathedral carrying that Soul Stone is she gonna give him good advice I
11:16
don't think so but he's got two people with him so she can't be as blatant she
11:22
can't just go okay Diablo let's fornicate and make a baby um she's still G to try to do it because that's part of
11:30
the plan and as long as Aiden's holding the Soul Stone things could still work out like he could still stick it in his
11:37
head one of the other two could stick it in their heads um she might suggest that
11:42
if she thinks they it would work but for now let's assume that they're not quite so far gone that they're willing to
11:48
stick that thing in their heads they then make their way out of Tristram and towards Luke Goan they're trying to get
11:54
to the tomb of Tasha um here's where stuff that we that we know happened in
12:01
Diablo I we have to think about whether or not it would have happened there's no blood blood Ravens with him and hasn't
12:07
been corrupted yet because he didn't stick the thing in his head so she's not gonna take over this the monastery of
12:13
the Seeing Eye you know that's not going to happen so she's not going to attack the Rogues uh they're going to just get
12:19
through there's not going to be any difficulty the heroes from Diablo I
12:24
originally get involved because there's a blockage at the monastery of the seeing ey and you can't get through
12:31
that's not happening this time so those people may not even get involved um oh bloody hack I cannot remember his name
12:37
and he's the stay at while and listen guy I hate when my brain does this I know who he is we all know who he is
12:42
dard Kane thank you ah brain is not wanting to say names today deer Kane
12:48
might in fact have just been waiting for him in Tristram like you know every he was there in Diablo the original Diablo
12:54
deer Kane's in drrm he didn't follow he didn't go with Aiden the first time because Aiden had the demon thing in his
13:00
head and just left and didn't didn't go by essentially so C might have been with
13:06
him that which might have made Adria even more circumspect so imagine this
13:12
this weird party of Deckard Kane the three you know the Three Amigos Aiden uh
13:17
blood Raven and mystery wizard whose name I can never remember and maybe Adria because she's like oh I will come
13:23
and help you she that's what she did with us so in Diablo I so maybe she would have done it this time mhm
13:29
five of them are going whole time adri is trying to figure out how do I get some [ __ ] to put this thing in their
13:36
head uh they get to luk Golan they have the confrontation um T rash's got still
13:42
got um ball inside of him because remember that all happened centuries ago Tasha had to like stick the broken Soul
13:50
Stone up to himself and let you know ball take over his body and then just have himself be trapped there so ball
13:57
couldn't go do anything so you got that happening without the
14:02
Dark Wanderer directly there without Aiden possessed by Diablo there and
14:08
without Marius there what happens that's one I I I don't know ball at remember at
14:14
this point ball didn't have a soul Stone like his soul Stone was was useless it
14:19
was it was fragments on his body now in the game tyriel shows up in Diablo 2
14:26
tyel shows up at this point but he you know he's over matched because he has to fight against both Bal and and Diablo
14:33
and everybody gets away and bad things happen Marius is there to make it worse I believe Marius even straight up Freez
14:38
him yeah without Marius there but with Adria there but with everybody else there not wanting this to happen I your
14:46
guess is as good as mine as to what happens here but let's go with let's go
14:51
with two possibilities one of which I will call the sanctuary option and one of them called Sanctuary plus the
14:57
sanctuary option is everything goes pear-shaped ball gets out and Adria gets
15:04
her hands on Diablo Soul Stone and since she has no other option jams it in her
15:09
own head thus allowing Diablo to walk in her body for a while the two of them
15:15
Escape uh tyriel is like you how could you have possibly trusted Adria uh you
15:21
know the the tyal from Diablo 3 goes look it was it was it was a mistake okay we but no one cares so now you have the
15:28
two demon Lords traveling to meet up with Mesto at to zacharo that's one
15:34
possibility the other possibility is they manage to repair the Soul Stone for
15:40
ball and jam him back in it and that means they've now got two Soul stones
15:45
that they're trying to get demon with demon Lords in them that they're trying to get to the pandemonium Forge which
15:51
they can only do by getting to misto because he's the one who's got a portal to pandemonium handy can they make it it
15:57
it then becomes basically can we get these two Soul Stones where they we need them to go before they get free and now
16:05
we have two demon Lords running around H they I think at this point Adria would have had to be unmasked and and either killed or escaped in order for that to
16:12
happen otherwise she's gonna do something she's gonna jam it in her own head or she's gonna jam it in somebody
16:17
else's head like you know as soon as she gets her hands on it she's looking for a head uh so let's assume for a moment
16:23
those are your two basic V variations here which one's more likely I I mean
16:29
part of me is like met using metan knowledge here it's diablo it's Sanctuary we're always going to get the worst possible thing right but we don't
16:36
always get the worst Poss I mean the worst possible thing in Diablo II would have been that malo's plan succeeds
16:43
right but it didn't it's possible that at this point since he doesn't have to
16:48
worry about he didn't get ambushed he didn't have to fight both ball and Diablo at once like he just had to deal
16:54
with Adria and Adria is not in his League power-wise it's possible tyal could have just taken them straight to
17:01
pandemonium Fortress he might have said you know what no we'll go to pandemonium directly from here and if that's the
17:07
case they could destroy both ball and Diablo immediately I mean not destroy them forever they go back to their their
17:13
planes but we're talking a couple hundred years of straight up frustration if they can get them there right then
17:20
which they might have been able to do that just leaves us with what the is basically the ending of Vel ofh hatred
17:26
except in Diablo I because you just have Mesto in the body of the quogan running
17:32
the zachar room faith and now you have to figure out what do we do about this the only reason that it worked
17:39
previously was because of the disruption that the Dark Wanderer was causing as he made his way to go get ball and then the
17:47
literal chaos that his his presence caused as he went through into the you
17:53
know the various parts of uh I want to say man I'm not saying the right City it's the the holy the religious one the
18:00
Holy One it's in Diablo 4 vessel of hatred the one we go to the Temple City I cannot remember the name of this city
18:07
I can't I can't either because now you're saying that you can't remember it so now my brain's like blanked it's it's not Calum obviously that's Diablo 3 it's
18:15
uh traven call traven call yeah you go to traven call and misto this is misto
18:22
place of power and it's also the headquarters of the Church of the zachar room in KOST yeah yeah KOST in traven
18:28
call you go there and those two places are inv violent because misto has no
18:33
reason to corrupt them that you know he's corrupting them subtly but he's not like letting chaos destroy everything
18:39
that's not his deal um in order for the players to deal with misto they're going to have to get through the entire zachar
18:45
room faith and I'm not saying they couldn't do it I mean but we have at this point who would you be playing
18:51
you'd basically be playing one of the three between Aiden uh blood Raven and
18:56
mystery Wizard or you'd be playing um you may be playing Deckard Kane at this
19:01
point you know because he's he would have tagged along it none of the player
19:07
characters would be there none of the the Barbarian The Necromancer because they they didn't they only stopped
19:13
originally because they were held up at the at the uh Monastery of the sightless
19:19
eye but if that's not happening then the end of what we call Diablo I that era
19:24
would be vastly different and we're not really sure what would have happened at the end of it but I can tell you one thing that wouldn't have happened the
19:30
world Stone doesn't get blown up yeah you that like I keep thinking about that too where like it it doesn't get blown
19:37
up but I also think it it you I think it starts a cascading chain of events that
19:42
is how we get to where we are right now um that put this way go ahead I don't want to interrupt you I W to let you
19:49
speculate too since this whole thing but it depends on if we consider ourselves in sanctuary or Sanctuary 2 mode those
19:54
two timelines I mentioned if we're in the worst possible timeline where somebody got diabled and ball is now
20:01
loose and there's there's nobody you know there's no big heroes to stop them
20:07
because all you got left are like blood Raven and mystery Wizard and maybe Deckard Kane and deckard's you know
20:14
bless his hard but deckard's really old you know he's not as really old as
20:19
he's gonna be in like 30 or so years but he's really old and it's kind of a lot
20:24
to ask him to do you know but those three if it's those three up against these too and Diablo gets to go onto the
20:32
Church of zacharo room to to meet up with misto and ball gets to run around then you do get the world Stone
20:38
destroyed almost certainly because the only one that could have stopped it never joined up on this ridiculous fight
20:44
in the first place doesn't even know what's happening is doing whatever they were doing down in the South and so the
20:50
worldstone gets destroyed and they're not even there for it so that's a possibilties we we got to keep that in mind it depends on if they can get rid
20:57
of the other two before moving on misto or not go ahead now yeah so and what I
21:03
was going to basically say is I mean relatively this the similar stuff but like I think that going back to the the
21:10
original root of the question with Aiden shoving the Soul Stone into his head what winds up happening is you get that
21:16
is the the pivotal moment right that is the moment that splits these two timelines essentially where uh you
21:23
either get Sanctuary 1 which we've had and this is what we've gone through in the current timeline or you Sanctuary 2
21:29
what you're you're talking about the interesting thing is I think it changes a lot of what happened cascading
21:36
afterwards think of some of the larger events that occurred if he never shoved
21:41
the Soul Stone into his head and Diablo was never really essentially given another physical form Diablo II's events
21:49
become a lot different you don't have nearly the amount of loss that you have
21:55
and instead it becomes almost like what Diablo I was where it becomes a Chase for the stone
22:01
because you have it's very much like vessel of hatred it's the thing you really have to look at is vessel of hatred is a really good model for what
22:08
you would have been dealing with because Aiden and his buddies would have been transporting that stone and it would
22:13
have been trying to destroy and corrupt them but none of them would have it in their heads yeah but it would also be to
22:18
varying degrees too like we've already established earlier it was a stone purpose built so not a rear purpose
22:25
Stone not a stone for a minor demon that to this point had been relatively well
22:30
contained until it was essentially shoved into somebody else's head in Diablo 4 because that seems to be a thing that occurs and that's what
22:36
happens um yeah don't put this thing in a head yeah just in case someone ever finds one you find a glowing Rock that's
22:43
Whispering I am the Lord Of Terror don't put that in your or anybody else's head
22:49
yeah uh but you you essentially have something that's it's trying to the
22:54
Primeval is trying to exert its will around it but we don't know the level to which it could and it might we only have
23:01
we we do have some signs some but not a lot yeah we this is what we can work on to to build a basic idea but it's it is
23:08
only a basic idea we know that misto could corrupt people yes we know from his purpose from his purpose built stone
23:14
he could he could he could influence people as and keep in mind that was a couple hundred years later but still he started being able to do it almost right
23:20
away it feels like the original soulstones lacked the ability to prevent the demon from reaching out with its
23:26
thoughts but it didn't they couldn't do things well and here's the interesting
23:32
thing you mentioned this earlier and I think it has a matter of resonance and the reason I say that is because what
23:38
and we've talked about this during our Diablo shows what is the one thing that the prime evils and the uh the archons
23:46
of the High Heavens have in common they are all essentially ideals or emotions that Mortals have terror fear hatred
23:56
gluttony all these things all these negative things are things that we as
24:01
living things uh sort of experience so I don't think the soulstones took that
24:06
into account and I think that maybe is the difference between uh zultan Cool's Zone Stone and the Original Soul Stones
24:14
because the Original Soul stones are made out of what what are they pieces of pretty sure they're pieces of the world Stone but again I don't not 100% yeah
24:20
they are 100% pieces of the world stone that have been crafted into this the world Stone made Sanctuary everything
24:27
that is alive on S uary everything that exists there essentially owes itself to
24:32
the Soul Stone even if it's derivative of the Nephilim because of everything else that happened around it if you are
24:38
a living being holding on to a stone of Terror it's going to resonate with your
24:44
natural ability to feel fear and that is something that I don't think they originally accounted for but I think
24:50
again like I said you you essentially have Diablo 2 becomes what essentially
24:56
Diablo 4 vessel of hatred was it's the chase is a Chase of everybody trying to get the stone and on once you have it
25:02
once you once you've got the two stones and you're trying to figure out what to do with them because can you can you
25:07
take the swiftest route to deal with it and what is that route because you are still going to have that resonance now
25:13
do you have to like do you have to walk with like a remade soul of a soul Stone of Destruction that has been destroyed
25:20
and therefore is not as powerful as it should be and the slowly deteriorating Stone of Terror both of which contain
25:27
fully powered Prim evils do you have to now try to get two carass go down into
25:32
the basement fight the quogan with misto in him get that Soul Stone and somehow
25:39
get through into pandemonium carrying all three can this be done in time yeah
25:44
and and then you start having I think a different cascading effects as well from Beyond that right so Diablo I becomes a
25:51
much different game and when it ends and you start moving into Diablo I that becomes much different too at the this
25:58
point it's all it's very likely that audrea already has the stone and has already been working to resurrect uh
26:05
Diablo or to bring Diablo back to a physical form but Leah is not born at
26:10
this point Leah doesn't get born because it wasn't uh she wasn't fathered by uh
26:17
Diablo in a human body and so she what does she do she probably finds another vessel probably a younger vessel because
26:24
children can be a lot more easy easily manipulated or uh taken over as at least from what we've seen with like the
26:30
quogan and everything else the younger they are the more subtler you can be the less power you have to exert that with
26:36
we see that with Aiden's younger brother yeah he he is controlled very easily and
26:42
you also then get to a situation where because the world hasn't been essentially through a post-apocalyptic
26:48
situation you get to the end of Diablo II and I don't think you have a mouthal situation anymore right here's the thing
26:54
too well here's the thing you don't have any Nephilim yeah either I mean there's very few of them because the original
27:00
Nephilim still exist and ones like zal and cool are occasionally born but most of them the the the ones we see in
27:08
Diablo I it doesn't happen because the world stone is still there keeping them from doing that so you have a world
27:16
where Z even if we still see an an upsurge a Resurgence of the of the demon
27:22
Lords in Diablo I and there's a lot talk about how that could get there where there's no NE to fight them there's no
27:29
Nephilim to stand up and basically say you know F you to the demons is also
27:35
means that if malel decides he's going to kill all of mort all of the humans
27:42
there's no one to stop him and that's interesting because he could still find the Black Soul Stone I mean Adria knew
27:50
where it was and he found it he when they took it from her when they took it
27:56
at the end of the of the the main game he found it he knew where it was he went
28:01
right down to earth with to sanctuary and took it from tyriel and and the the
28:06
uh horod he just took it they couldn't stop him so that's like does that still happen I I don't know is it possible
28:13
that he it wouldn't work because of the so the world Stone still existing maybe the fact that the world Stone would
28:18
still exist means he might not have gone crazy in the first place that's that's what I'm getting at is I think that that's most most likely what would
28:25
happen because the Nephilim not essentially coming back up to power doesn't lead to that same fear that
28:33
leads down that road for him and so it's also more likely that the angels are
28:39
more involved in a positive than a negative way because at this point the
28:44
war just continues to happen they want to get those Soul Stones back they want to make sure that they prevent the
28:50
primevals from coming back and they're not worried about us essentially murdering them at this point so they
28:56
don't really care about us in terms of a threat but they're more willing to help us at that point because we're not a
29:03
threat to them and I think that mfield doesn't uh destroy you know 9/10 of
29:10
humanity or however much the percentage was mfield yeah doesn't doesn't put this
29:16
world into a full post-apocalyptic uh you know terrorizing
29:22
spree and so by the time you get to Diablo I humanity is in a much better
29:28
place to try to defend against the encroaching Darkness maybe or on the
29:33
other hand if if things don't go well like if we end Diablo the Diablo 2 era
29:40
if we end that at a place where the soul the world Soul still exists and two of the Soul stones are gone they took them
29:45
to the uh they took them to the forge that they they took they tried taking them to in Diablo 2 as we know it and
29:51
smashed them that means there's two primevals in the Black Soul Stone there'
29:57
be Diablo and ball would be in there Fisto might still be running the zacha room cuz yeah the Heroes all know he's
30:04
that's where he is but they can't do anything about it maybe they just can't get to him let's like how do we get past
30:11
all the armies of the faithful how do we get past the entire uh full zachar room church that hasn't had like a demon Lord
30:18
you know wandering through messing everything up like the Demon Lord that's in charge of the zachar room meyo is
30:24
very good at running the zachar room cuz he's been doing it for 200 years you
30:30
know he he's not a a a schmuck he knows what he's doing so I think that that you
30:36
start to like look at this and go okay we could be looking at a very different Diablo I and we don't know what the differences might be it's very hard like
30:43
if if the Black Soul Stone has two of the demon Lords in it but misto is still running around then I tell you right now
30:50
bile and asadon are not GNA try to come in on Sanctuary when they know Mesto is
30:56
there they are absolutely not gonna step to misto asadon won't step to him
31:02
because aadan knows that one-on-one he can't beat him bile won't step to him because he knows how mephisto's mind
31:08
works because B was effectively mephisto's understudy for a while he knows oh if he's already got plans for
31:15
what I what'll happen if I show up and if I don't show up and if asadon shows up and if I aodan shows up without me
31:22
and if as with me and with duriel and with andario he he knows knows Mesto is
31:29
the thinker of the group you know so he's not going to risk that so a lot of
31:34
possibilities like imagine malel shows up as backup because at this point he's
31:41
Archangel of wisdom and he hasn't gone mad because the world Stone hasn't been destroyed like the whole reason we got
31:48
Reaper of Souls is that malel went looking for the for the world Stone and
31:53
there wasn't one to find like it was gone there was just this void and that drove him nuts but it's not destroyed if
32:02
it doesn't get waked out this time tyel doesn't blow it up uh tyel still there he doesn't spend like you know 50 years
32:08
putting himself back together malio goes looking for it finds it he goes to the worldstone chamber and tiel's waiting
32:14
for him and he's like you didn't pick sides last time you have to pick sides now I need you on my side like misto is
32:22
going to corrupt this entire planet and he will have all of these souls to throw at us
32:28
if we don't stop him you know and that' be what the beginning of Diablo 3 could very well be mouth theel interial versus
32:36
Mesto and you know all the ways that that could go wrong and we really just don't know and then I think the
32:42
interesting thing to about that too and this is where I think is is for me is one of the more fascinating ones is that
32:47
by the time you get to the fourth game again humanity is not been decimated and
32:53
because of that there's a lot more just pure body
32:58
willing to possib yeah absolutely look how much
33:03
damage the Church of light did with what they had and this is after Humanity had
33:09
been decimated now imagine this after like 50 years of trying to rebuild from like one in 10 now imagine this is
33:15
tyriel who comes down instead of an narius and is raising an army of people
33:22
to fight by his side tyriel still an angel full-fledged angel who comes down
33:28
and says we need to work together to you know F like to fight off the the the
33:33
encroaching evils and save the souls of humanity you need to you need to be involved in this fight it's not just us
33:40
you need to fight as well how many people would co- flock to that banner and how different of a force would that
33:46
be could they actually take the fight to the burning Hells at that point if they needed to break into it and not get
33:53
pushed back or not be completely destroyed because again oh oh oh oh go for it I think I think you were going
34:00
you think I yeah go ahead I mean if they're doing that like if if they they're we have to take misto out we
34:06
need somebody who knows what he's planning who do we know who's been privy
34:12
to mefisto planning over the fast past thousand years or so isn't didn't we
34:17
leave an ARS in Hell In misto realm and now now you go and you mount a Rescue
34:24
Mission in an Arius instead of being completely driven insane by the heavens
34:30
completely cutting him off the heavens come and save him yeah he might still be completely insane but he's completely
34:37
insane yet willing to do what you want him to do because best interest yeah absolutely
34:44
this however does lead to an even weirder idea in that while that's happening somebody decides to call
34:50
Lilith yeah because in sanctuary as we know it from Diablo 4 eventually one of
34:56
the the uh horadam decides I'm going to call Lilith but that was in a world
35:02
where the Nephilim had risen and the world Stone was gone and all this if we bring an narius back to a world where
35:10
the Soul Stone or the world Stone still exists and an narius who knows the most about using it has been rescued from
35:16
Hell daddy and daughter might make up like he might call her out of the Void
35:22
himself and like look you you hate me and I hate you because for one thing we're both hate um but think about it
35:29
this way we both hate them more right and you want this world to exist I want
35:35
to win the war you want to win the war I didn't listen to your plans before but I
35:41
really think that that they're they're I'm warming up on them they're growing on me let's talk and both of them would
35:49
obviously be plotting to destroy the other but it's not like they don't hate those guys you know Lilith absolutely
35:57
hates hates in Arius he hates her however in this one he didn't kill their
36:02
son and in fact their son come out likely come out of retirement at this
36:07
point yeah who knows maybe they all would yeah maybe ASU and uh faka gar and
36:16
you know bulos all show up and and keep in mind this the world Stone would still
36:22
be something both sides would want to put in playh except since it still exists and
36:29
keep in mind it only exists because a Nephilim made it continue existing MH it
36:35
was falling apart it if it been allowed to do what it was going to do it would
36:40
have stopped working it would have blown itself apart yeah and I think that's actually really fascinating too because
36:45
like does it destabilize at this point does it collapse in on itself well all these things are happening around it the
36:51
world is not built Sanctuary is not built to have full-fledged you know Evil versus good Angel versus demon battles
37:00
on it that wasn't what it was created for um and we also know that Sanctuary has like when we see the spirit realm
37:07
when we go to uh nahaku um that whole bit that whole area has a completely
37:14
different existence that is not of Heaven or Hell Sanctuary has effectively
37:21
created a framework around itself like in a lot in a in a very real way I keep
37:26
thinking about theide idea that Sanctuary it's like if you consider the the fabric of the universe before the
37:32
creation of sanctuary you've got the heavens and the hells and they basically
37:38
Pro they warp existence around them so that you get pandemonium at the point where they they their influences are
37:44
both exactly the same at the point where the heavens and their influence and the hell's influence both meet at the scar
37:50
that was created when Anu and tthat destroyed each other is the the exact
37:56
peak of pandon that's where the pandemonium Fortress Is that's where the world Stone was that
38:01
it's at that one exact spot where both those forces collided where Anu and TMA killed each other that's where the world
38:08
Stone was that's where the world Stone still technically was right up till its destruction because they basically made
38:15
sanctuary as its own reality around the world Stone they didn't take it out of
38:20
the Fortress that's the thing that's how Malo finds it and finds that it's not there he goes to where it's supposed to
38:28
and there's nothing there's not even there's just a trail of of dead things dead Spirits going hey what's going on
38:35
getting dragged out of it and that's how you know the world Stone's not there which which does beg the question does
38:41
that mean that Souls were going to the world Stone yeah and I I think died I think I brought this up before right
38:48
like what happened to a soul when it pass and this it going to the world Zone
38:55
seemed like the most likely thing which is you know how life continues how the
39:00
everything goes through because again like we have the spirit realm but we know that that's not the normal place
39:07
that humanoid Spirits go it's something that essentially was created later uh
39:12
and a completely purpose go ahead possibly it was created by Sanctuary itself yeah or possibly existing caused
39:20
that to exist and that's the thing I'm trying to say is that the the subtlety of the creation of sanctuary might be
39:27
far far greater than we understand because it was created by an Angel and a demon working together but it was
39:32
created by the world Stone and the world Stone before when it would create things those things would collapse the second
39:38
someone stopped concentrating on but at this point Sanctuary not only seems to
39:43
exist without it doesn't need either inarius or Lilith concentrating on it it doesn't need either of them having any
39:49
control over the world Stone it doesn't even need the world Stone because we know in our timeline Sanctuary still
39:56
exists and the world Stone's gone there's no world Stone but the world exists and the the thoughts and feelings
40:03
and dreams of people create things like the spirit realm at this point this thing's self-
40:09
sustaining it it makes itself and I think that's why those Souls were trying to go to the world Stone because part of
40:15
the process of making itself was to essentially set up streams that go back
40:22
to somewhere else that then become part of the new creation and that means to me
40:27
one of the things we we never really thought about is exactly why ball wanted to corrupt the world Stone because Ball's not about corruption Ball's about
40:33
destruction so maybe he wanted the world Stone destroyed because he is destruction why didn't he just destroy
40:39
it why did he make tyal do it yeah that's a really good question like
40:45
there's a possibility that ball wanted to use Sanctuary to literally destroy
40:52
everything cuz think about what happens if if if Sanctuary is a stable creation
40:57
built around and containing the power of the world stone and you destroy the world Stone you take the pin out have
41:03
you just armed the grenade and is it going to explode out into the realities
41:09
around it or is it going to implode them into it is it going to pull the heavens
41:14
and the hells into itself like when you take a soul Stone and jam it into somebody's head and now suddenly the
41:20
Demons Inside the body and can corrupt the body can they get the angels and the demons to literally be part of s U can
41:28
you eat the heavens and the hells like this is something I keep thinking about I don't I I know we're kind of getting
41:34
really wild here we're getting way past the question you asked me yeah you know what though let's let's yeah let's keep
41:40
going because I mean why not we got it we got about 15 minutes left and I think we can we we can get some of this stuff
41:45
out there because the spirit the spirit realm to me when I played through vessel of hatred the first thing the spirit realm said to me is that there are
41:51
alternatives yeah like there are multiple different options or things that exist that aren't this yeah you
41:57
don't you don't have to be an angel you don't have to be a demon there are things that are spirits there are things
42:02
that are not that are like that the line that I remember you you talking about to me first and I and I've always thought
42:09
about it since the bit where someone says to the the witch doctor lady the witch lady uh says you know such you
42:16
know the you know the these swamps are part of sanctuary and she goes oh are they and I haven't stopped thinking
42:23
about that since you made it up made made the point you didn't make it up but you made the point that they'd said that
42:28
about the uh the the marsh and I'm like what does she mean like does she mean
42:35
that calling it a part of sanctuary isn't accurate because it's not a part of sanctuary or does she mean that
42:41
saying it's a part of sanctuary doesn't understand its importance like what if
42:47
this area the these these regions aren't part of sanctuary their Sanctuary is
42:53
something growing out of them and we talked about that with all the underground stuff how there's like tendrils everywhere and always it seems
43:00
organic and Alive well Sanctuary could be a living thing like as it its entire
43:06
existence there could be a a a will to it to keep existing in a way that none
43:12
of the other creations ever had I I think there's a level of that right and the reason I think so is because and you
43:19
brought this up right now with the Soul Stone or sorry the world Stone
43:24
completely destroyed it does not exist anymore more the sanctuary persists it
43:29
is self-maintaining if anything Sanctuary seems to be getting stronger if anything Sanctuary get seems begin
43:35
getting stronger but I think there's an element of sanctuary as a living thing
43:41
but here's the other interesting that I've been thinking about two and this goes with the destruction of the world
43:46
Stone the world stone is destroyed what happened to all of those pieces yeah
43:51
they some of them made up a big part of the Diablo Immortal story um but that's a whole thing you guys got to go see
43:58
we'd be here all day yeah but the thing that I keep thinking about is they're not uniform sizes they can't be no no
44:05
which means that larger and smaller chunks went everywhere so is it possible
44:11
that pieces of the world Stone flew off and generated new places latched on to
44:19
somebody's belief and made it real because at the end of the day all Mortals are descended from Nephilim correct all Mortals yeah basically all
44:27
humans are Nephilim that just been stunted by the world Stone originally and we know for a fact that human belief
44:32
is able to shape the IMM material that's why the spirit realm exists well we also
44:37
know that belief can actually shape the world Stones the world Stone remains because we see that happening in Diablo
44:43
mortal like like the the the I forget her name but she's in Diablo 2 is a Vampire the Countess of blood or The
44:49
Blood Countess or whatever she gets a chunk of of the the corrupted World Stone and uses that to recreate herself
44:57
mhm she makes herself new and healthy and young which she wasn't in Diablo I
45:03
and this kind of leads us to two two questions that are related the the question you're asking and another related question is what if if we
45:10
gathered all the fragments of the world Stone we're not going to have the world Stone again we're not gonna have something as big or as powerful as a
45:17
world Stone where did all that power go and the answer is seems to be into
45:23
humans because humans were the creations of the angels and the demons that created the world Stone the Nephilim
45:30
they have the essentially both Anu and tathamet Legacy in them which is what
45:35
the world stone is it's for it's the world Stone was a piece of the the god
45:40
before he split himself and humans are like that getting reput back together
45:47
they're so the humans are like the the world Stone after Anu has gone through
45:52
the process of splitting himself into two things which then split themselves into smaller things which then split
45:58
themselves yet again to create humans in the first place so you feel like there's
46:04
almost like a symbiotic relationship between Sanctuary the world Stone and The Mortals that live there which would
46:10
explain why the souls were going back to the world Stone because they would then go to the world Stone give it their
46:16
experiences this is my life this is everything I experienced when I was alive okay now put that back out into
46:22
the world and I think that you're I think the spirit world is how it did it
46:27
because you see in the spirit realm all these Spirits almost exist as like training tools like you look at how uh
46:35
the one that really gets me is the one that um gets killed while you're trying to get to the tomb and it really messes
46:42
up your friend uh I can't remember his name like b aaton or something but that
46:47
one taught him everything about being a Spirit uh you know his Spirit born stuff
46:53
it it educated him and all the spirit born get their get their education from Spirits why are the spirits so
46:59
interested in teaching us things why are the natur why is the natural world telling Druids how to
47:06
Druid how how why are barbarians capable of talking to their own ancestors and
47:11
gaining power from it like you know they get stronger because Grandpa's ghost showed up and told them how to hit
47:17
things better they can even call like I used to I used to joke when I was playing my Barbarian that I was the SALT
47:23
call of the Ancients spell I was like that's me calling my grandfather my other grandfather and one of my grandmas
47:29
and I I just I love the idea that their ancestors are so tightly bound to them
47:35
that they can reach out and talk to them but that's kind of backed up by Diablo I isn't it it is because you see your
47:41
various like even if you're the Demon Hunter you see your dead sister you're the yeah or theader excuse me excuse me
47:48
Crusader Crusader yeah the Crusader sees you know the the one that taught them um
47:54
yeah there's just a lot of this I really do feel like Sanctuary at this point is an organism or even a metaorganism it's
48:01
not going to go away like if anything it's G to spread it's going to grow and
48:07
your idea of the world Stones like going out and making other realities what if
48:12
that's like how it reproduces yeah like it want maybe it wasn't ball who wanted the world Stone destroy maybe it was you
48:20
know Sanctuary okay it's time pop this thing so I can spread throughout all
48:25
this void because think about it all these universes that used to exist don't exist anymore right yep all the ones
48:31
people tried to use the worldstone to make they lost as soon as they stopped concentrating on it maybe that's this is how it's going to seed itself it's going
48:38
to make more realities more places to exist we're going from this strict you
48:45
know binary of Good and Evil to one of maybe infinite possibility all coming from Sanctuary yeah and I and and again
48:53
it's one of those weird things where that one decision that one decision going back to the root of the question
49:00
of to shove that Soul Stone into a body into their body into Aiden's body was
49:06
like a defining moment you you we talk about like some stories have conversations about like fixed points in
49:12
time um or things that if these things were to change would drastically alter the trajectory of trajectory of reality
49:20
and this is one of them this is one of those things where if that never happened there's no telling how much
49:27
different or how how much things would be different um but it would be W it's very clear that it would be wildly
49:33
different at least to me and I really like that I mean if you think about too without in a weird sort of way the
49:41
destruction of nine10 of humanity by malel does put all those Souls out there
49:48
at a time when the prime Evils are coming the world suddenly has a whole lot of energy banked like that's
49:55
something to consider when you thinking about what would have happened it is just it is it's very hard to imagine
50:01
Diablo without Diablo I as we have had it it's Diablo 1
50:07
certainly if if Diablo 1 doesn't happen then we just don't have a game series you know what I mean but if Diablo 2
50:13
doesn't happen if the things we see in Diablo I don't happen then we have no idea like what would the game world even
50:19
be yeah and it it's it's interesting to see how something built so long ago is
50:25
so pivotal to how everything is is built how everything goes on and we talked about this before about other other
50:32
franchises where um and again Diablo is a really good example of this as our some of well I don't say all but most of
50:39
the blizzard IPS Diablo is something that has been paying dividends uh when
50:46
they didn't know that it was going to be as like it was right the popularity of Diablo I was not expected um they they
50:54
knew that it would be popular or at least popular enough they Justified it by or they they wanted to justify it in
51:01
uh you know in making the the spending the development time founding a whole new campus for it because again don't
51:06
forget Diablo I is Blizzard north um which was a whole new campus dedicated
51:11
specifically to it but in the game World Diablo II became so pivotal for every
51:18
piece of lore to come after it that all of the decisions all of the things uh
51:25
that all the Canon events that happen at the beginning during the story all the way through to the end Define Diablo as
51:32
a universe as an IP and not just Story related here I think it's it's
51:39
interesting because there's a parallel to it where in real life the video game creation of Diablo II did that for so
51:47
many other franchises without Diablo II there would be no torch light there would be no uh uh you know Grim dark
51:55
there wouldn't be no path of Exile no and see Path of Exile by itself is so big that now there's a Path of Exile 2
52:01
coming out yes which we're going to talk about in the main cast at some point um well it's like I mean just to go back to
52:07
your idea for a moment about the the world Stone being shattered and creating other worlds in a very real way at the
52:12
end of Diablo I when they destroyed the world Stone a whole bunch of video games come out of that yeah um what was the
52:19
one in London Hellgate London which which was created which was and I was going to talk about that one a little
52:24
bit well I shouldn't say a little bit but I was going to mention it because after Diablo II was done and after blizzard North moved away when they were
52:32
no longer blizzard North that that office closed down the people from blizzard North went and made Hellgate
52:38
London yeah and it's basically successor which was way ahead of its time too
52:43
which we can talk about in the main cast sometime I would love to do an episode about it um but like it was a spiritual
52:49
successor it was what if demonic Invasion modern dimes yeah and see
52:54
that's the thing about like a lot of G like you mentioned Torchwood previously Tor one that torch yeah torch light
53:00
sorry Torchwood is a TV show but uh I was thinking about torch light in part because the first torch light feels it
53:06
feels so at home it it is basically down to a different art style yeah but I
53:12
think like one of my the most fascinating ones for me is walson yeah because walson walson feels like a
53:19
Diablo game that just tripped and fell into another Diablo game I don't know
53:28
how else to explain it like Path of Exile both Path of Exile and wson kind
53:33
of approach it from from wildly different angles but they both kind of are doing the same thing when they're
53:39
like look what we love is this and we want to give you something that isn't
53:45
just ripping that off but that gives you the chance to feel about it the way we
53:51
felt about this uh and Path of Exile is really interesting in its mechanics like I think were talking about how it
53:57
doesn't do the number inflation but it's it's interesting in how it uses its mechanics to tell its story um which
54:03
Wilson also does which the Diablo Series has always done in a lot of ways the the world of the of sanctuary is revealed to
54:10
us through stuff our characters can do um Druids really come to mind for me one
54:16
of the reasons Druids should be like a a class everybody plays in in Diablo in my opinion is because you start you start
54:22
really thinking what what is going on in this world that these spirit can exist that these giant bear monsters can come
54:29
to me and and give me their power what are they where are they from and I think the spirit world is going to come back
54:36
more often now that we've seen it with the spirit the the spirit born because I think it explains a lot of things that
54:41
up till now we haven't really had an explanation for like where do monks get all these things where do Druids get all
54:47
these things it's like they get them from here it's it's kind of like the implicate order or the otherw world from
54:54
Celtic mythology for Diablo mhm all right well we could sit here and talk
54:59
about this for hours on end and who knows we might do another episode but thank you very much for that question
55:04
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55:23
again thank you for sending in those questions we have so many more to to go through and I want to keep that list growing um you go ahead and send those
55:30
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55:36
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55:41
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55:47
have the patron q and podcast questions Channel where we tend to look there first as a way of saying thank you for helping us keep the lights on uh yeah I
55:54
do want to thank you guys this is the last lure watch of 2024 we've been doing this for a while
56:00
now we couldn't do it without your continued support I'm looking absolutely I'm looking forward to our next year I'm
56:07
looking forward to uh all the new content that we are going to have to to talk about and all the wild stuff that
56:14
we can do going into 2025 uh and hopefully you are too but thank you we really appreciate with that
56:21
folks we'll see you next year [Music]
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