Up next in 10
Joe, Matt, and Eric sat down this week to discuss the dragons of World of Warcraft, starting with their origins as proto-dragons, and all the way up through more modern politics. With many thanks for the great questions, we start off with proto-dragons: why do they call themselves that? Seems like they might call themselves "dragons" and come up with something new for those long-armed fellows. But then, this leads into the next question, because the past of the proto-dragons was described largely with Malygos as the narrator. This was written by Richard Knaak, so there's a lengthy bit of discussion on his turn at the writer's desk. But then, Alexstrasza winds up being the leader of the Dragonflights. So, what happened there?
Then, speaking of diplomacy and jockeying for power, how are Lordaeron and Gilneas doing now? Calia is on the new Forsaken council, and Genn has sort of retired and let Tess lead the way, so how are the relations there going to shake out as we move forward into the future?
If you want even more background story, we also have a guide to every Warcraft book in chronological order (for those of you who prefer reading that way): https://blizzardwatch.com/warcraft-books/
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Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:04
[music]
0:11
>> Hello and welcome to Lorewatch
0:13
Roundtable free from discussion about
0:14
lore in your favorite media. I'm your
0:16
host Joe Perez one of several lore
0:18
minded folks from Blizzard Watch and
0:21
I've got some stalwart companions with
0:23
me today on this journey to hit level 90
0:26
again.
0:27
First he is a recent addition to the
0:29
crew and we're glad to have him. Eric
0:31
O'Day how you doing Eric? I'm doing
0:33
great Joe. It's PAX East week and since
0:35
that's my neck of the woods I get to go
0:37
and so it's the rare week where
0:38
recording Lorewatch might not be the
0:40
nerdiest thing I do this week. You know
0:42
now that I know that you're in that
0:44
region it really means that at some
0:46
point in time I'm going to wind up
0:47
meeting you in person because you are
0:49
like 8 hours away from me and that makes
0:51
me very happy.
0:54
I Buffalo
0:55
heading out to where you are is on my
0:58
list of places I've never been but I
0:59
really want to.
1:00
Well we'll talk after this cuz we have a
1:02
guild meet up coming and you are and you
1:04
are now part of my guild. Aha. Yes. And
1:07
then joining us as a triumphant return
1:10
after we've used every Phoenix down
1:12
we've had in our little storage area and
1:15
we need Riku to steal some more for us.
1:18
Rising from the ashes is Matt Rossi. How
1:21
you doing today Matt? I'm mostly still
1:23
ashes. Let's just be up front about
1:26
this. I I am a pile of shambling
1:28
detritus in the shape of a man. I'm like
1:31
a man thing it up to the point where
1:33
people burn at my touch.
1:35
Uh also I'm really sad.
1:37
Cuz Sam Keith died.
1:39
Yeah we I would thought about switching
1:42
the episode actually to do a Sam Keith
1:44
episode but I that's what I'm I think
1:46
we're going to wind up if you're
1:47
listening
1:50
to this recording we're probably going
1:51
to be doing that as our next recording.
1:53
Sam Keith is one of the most influential
1:56
people in comics especially in the 90s.
2:00
When there was a revitalization and
2:03
things like The Max were coming out.
2:06
So we are going to probably talk about
2:08
the the career and impact of
2:10
Sam Keith relatively soon. Because I
2:14
know for Matt and myself that's an
2:16
important important life especially in
2:19
our some of our formative years.
2:21
Going to list three things you might
2:23
know Sam Keith from if you're saying Sam
2:25
who?
2:26
Did a lot of Batman stuff. Mhm. A lot of
2:29
really weird trippy out there
2:31
experimental Batman stuff. If you've
2:32
ever looked at Batman's mask and say
2:34
those ears are too big Sam Keith is the
2:37
reason that those ears are too.
2:39
He co-created Sandman. Yes he did.
2:42
>> With Neil Gaiman. The first I want to
2:44
say first year. First year. Is yeah the
2:46
first year is Sam Keith art and he
2:49
basically had a pretty big influence on
2:51
there's a reason that they look the way
2:53
they do and it's because Sam Keith
2:54
wanted to draw them that way.
2:56
And finally The Max I believe Joe you
2:58
just mentioned The Max. I can't explain
3:01
The Max to you.
3:02
You need to read it. You need to read
3:04
The Max. We will probably explain it on
3:06
a podcast a little bit because we'll try
3:08
but
3:09
It's going to be yeah it's it's it is
3:11
out there.
3:12
Anyway that's I just want to mention it
3:14
because big influence on me somebody of
3:17
whose art I loved
3:18
and since this is Lorewatch I figure you
3:20
know lore is one of the things that Sam
3:22
Keith had a lot big hand in creating so.
3:25
>> Big big influence on myself as well if
3:26
you go and look at the art I made of
3:28
Matt's bunny you can see a lot of Sam
3:30
Keith influence in it. There's
3:32
but we're here to in this week we're
3:34
going to be answering your questions are
3:36
from our wonderful listeners and we
3:37
appreciate you and we appreciate your
3:39
continued support listening to us and
3:41
sending these in.
3:42
If you have questions for this or any of
3:44
our podcast we want to go ahead and have
3:47
you send those in to
3:47
3:50
I ask that you specify the show that it
3:52
is for in the subject line as well as
3:54
any special pronunciation of your name.
3:56
If you don't want to send us an email
3:57
you can hit us up on Discord. We have
3:58
two channels set aside. We have the Q&A
4:00
podcast questions channel which is open
4:01
for everybody same rules apply as
4:03
sending an email.
4:05
And if you are a Patreon supporter as a
4:07
way of saying thank you for helping us
4:09
keep the lights on you can hit us up in
4:11
the Patreon Q&A podcast questions
4:13
channel. We always look there first and
4:15
as a matter of fact most of these
4:16
questions come directly from that. We're
4:19
going to start with our first one which
4:20
we have a set of questions from
4:22
Viscalink
4:23
which very frequently been asking lots
4:25
of great questions. Thank you very much
4:27
for that Viscalink. We're going to break
4:29
them down one by one. So the first
4:31
question is I noticed that proto-dragons
4:34
referenced themselves as proto-dragons.
4:36
This is in reference to the Dawn of the
4:38
Aspects
4:39
but isn't that very weird to call
4:41
yourself that because the meaning of the
4:43
word proto?
4:44
You'd think that term proto-dragon would
4:46
come into existence after they became
4:48
dragons right? Or did the entire race
4:51
know that some of them would change into
4:53
a different form at some point so they
4:55
preemptively called themselves the proto
4:57
version of that.
5:00
This is a weird one and it's also
5:03
something that I noticed from the book
5:04
because I think this is just an artifact
5:07
of the book being written by somebody
5:10
who knows in current tense what was
5:13
happening and applying that.
5:14
>> sneak an explanation for that in though.
5:16
Go for it. The book is narrated quote
5:19
unquote by a device left behind by Tyr
5:23
when he got his hand bit off. Sure.
5:26
And that device is translating the
5:29
ancient draconic language into languages
5:32
that the people around them who are
5:34
seeing it speak and there's I think
5:37
there's at least one human in that
5:38
audience. There is yeah.
5:40
And so they would call them the to the
5:42
humans proto-drake is what they are so
5:45
that's what he hears. But to a dragon it
5:49
would be in the whole thing would be in
5:50
draconic and they wouldn't be calling
5:52
them proto-dragons. They probably would
5:54
just call them drakes. Or maybe
5:56
something insulting cuz they did have a
5:58
war and everything they didn't
5:59
necessarily like but it wouldn't have
6:01
been proto-dragons because you know that
6:03
that word didn't exist.
6:05
Plus remember that nobody in Azeroth
6:07
actually speaks English. That's that's
6:09
one of those things that they're just
6:10
using English because that's what we
6:12
speak it's not they didn't actually go
6:14
out and invent the various languages of
6:16
Azeroth except they did kind of but not
6:18
not to the point we could write a book
6:19
in them. Not Tolkien level. Not Tolkien
6:21
level no.
6:22
Or or you know my favorite example of
6:24
this Klingon where they've gone from
6:27
some some noises that James Doohan was
6:29
making just because they were like uh yo
6:31
Jim can you can you do some weird noises
6:33
here? He's like yeah of course I can. To
6:36
you know then people came along and
6:37
turned it into a language based on the
6:40
weird noises that Scotty was making so
6:42
yeah.
6:43
But regardless
6:44
it's there if you want it. There's a
6:47
there's a handwavium explanation there
6:50
but I think it's as simple as
6:52
if the book had to constantly point out
6:54
that they they had to come keep using a
6:56
different word for proto-dragons or
6:59
proto-drakes or whatever you want to
7:00
call them it would take it would take
7:02
people right the heck out. And I think
7:03
that cuts back to our Neuromancer
7:05
conversation from a couple weeks ago. I
7:07
was I've been going for my brain senses
7:09
is set up but we talked about
7:11
Neuromancer sometimes it's best to just
7:13
use the slang and not worry too much
7:15
about explaining it. I feel like in this
7:17
case just just use proto-dragon rather
7:19
than
7:20
they were blah blah blah thops and then
7:23
you just have to keep explaining why
7:24
you're using a different word. That's
7:26
that's just my opinion. Eric.
7:28
>> Definitely translated for our
7:29
convenience for the readers convenience
7:31
and it's
7:32
it's interesting that they even have a
7:33
mechanism for it in there but
7:35
proto-drake itself is a retronym so that
7:38
is a term that needed to be invented
7:42
because something changed. So the
7:44
classic example is snail mail. Like mail
7:47
was mail for
7:49
>> Yeah. 200 years and then once we had
7:51
email when you say so to somebody I'll
7:52
send you some mail you need to specify
7:55
no it's the kind of mail that's physical
7:57
and goes somewhere. So they came up with
7:59
the kind of sassy snail mail meaning I'm
8:02
putting it in the physical mail and a
8:03
postal carrier is bringing it to you. So
8:06
the same thing they were just whatever
8:07
their word for themselves was in
8:10
draconic wasn't like okay so we are
8:13
proto-drakes. It was something and then
8:15
they had a different term for after they
8:17
were ordered and those two terms are
8:19
different. So
8:21
in English when it comes through it
8:22
whether it goes to common or Orcish and
8:24
then to English and then we read it
8:26
proto-drake and proto-dragon and dragon
8:28
are what we what we know of them as. And
8:30
yeah it's a lot easier to read a novel
8:32
when you don't have to come up with new
8:33
words for something we already know what
8:35
it is. My thing
8:37
like like I said there is that that
8:39
obvious explanation
8:41
and it is explained away in that I never
8:45
really liked that explanation because it
8:48
just seemed I don't want to say lazy.
8:51
>> [laughter]
8:52
>> Um
8:52
anybody who's listened to this show or
8:54
any of our shows for any length of
8:56
period of time knows that I'm not a big
8:57
fan of Richard Knaak's writing.
8:59
And Dawn of the Aspects is no different.
9:02
I feel that it comparing what was in
9:05
that book to or the five part ebook and
9:08
in the subsequent bundling therein
9:11
comparing it to what we now have with
9:13
the modern dragons leaves a lot to be
9:15
desired.
9:17
And so I hate to say it like this I
9:19
largely ignore little plot holes like
9:21
this because I just kind of expect them
9:23
from Richard. I know that may be a rough
9:26
thing for me to say and I I understand
9:28
that I'm not an author putting all that
9:30
stuff out there
9:31
and it's not an easy job and I know that
9:33
it's not an easy job but for whatever
9:35
reason whenever he's written like the
9:38
Aspects or his insert OC Rhonin
9:42
it just never really meshed with me.
9:47
Rhonin's not in this book though. No
9:49
he's not in this book.
9:50
>> [laughter]
9:51
>> But I'm just saying Rhonin was in this
9:52
book I'd be like oh god now Rhonin's
9:54
going to go back in time. Now Rhonin's
9:56
going to go back in time and he's a
9:57
dragon somehow.
9:59
Yeah, no.
10:01
But it is Matt is right that it is a lot
10:04
of what we interpret. It's very similar
10:05
to like the Grimoire and it's very
10:07
similar to
10:09
Chronicles, which all those of you
10:11
listening at home, we haven't covered
10:12
Chronicle for you yet because I don't
10:13
think any of us have got received the
10:14
book yet.
10:15
We'll go back and review it at some
10:17
point. It's all done through an
10:19
interpretive lens and that's
10:22
the like if you just assume every story
10:26
you read
10:28
everything that you consume up until I
10:31
want to say before the storm was almost
10:34
always written from a very specific
10:37
character point of view.
10:40
And therefore always with a different
10:42
lens and it's only really recently that
10:45
they've leaned into the multi-view
10:47
multi-character narrative more than more
10:50
than ever. And you'll find I don't want
10:53
to say cleaner but more varied
10:55
interpretations of it. So like while
10:57
this is being interpreted by we'll can
10:59
assume through
11:01
the humans perspective where the human
11:03
uses the word proto-dragons.
11:05
Matt's right. You're right. It's the
11:08
whatever word is actually used by Tyr in
11:12
this case is whatever either the Titans
11:16
use, the Watchers use or the word the
11:18
dragons use themselves because we know
11:21
that they're intelligent creatures and
11:22
have communication. Before they and we
11:24
also know that before
11:27
they split off from you know before they
11:29
they were the dragons were made via the
11:32
Watchers giving them connection to Titan
11:34
powers, they probably you know, they
11:37
would have used that same word for
11:38
themselves and they might not have
11:40
stopped using it. So for all we know the
11:42
word for proto-drakes was just the word
11:45
that is like it's like an old English
11:47
version of the word dragon. Like you we
11:49
know that there are like dragons with
11:51
like d r a g o n n n e in English. It
11:55
means dragon but it's got more letters.
11:57
And that could have been the case there
12:00
too. Like there's an there's original
12:02
dragon language which would we would now
12:04
call proto-draconic but at the time it
12:06
was just dragon. And then there's
12:08
current dragon language which would be
12:10
the equivalent of old English versus
12:12
middle English versus modern English.
12:14
So yeah, I mean but that's not going to
12:17
be in the book because only people like
12:19
us care about this kind of thing.
12:21
>> [laughter]
12:22
>> Like if you're if you're writing a
12:23
letter to us
12:25
you're already way above interest on the
12:27
lore. Of the average person, yeah. Yeah,
12:29
of the average person. So for most
12:32
people trying to read this book
12:34
I actually do like Richard Knaak but
12:36
kind of in a
12:38
it's sort of like a I liked his
12:39
Dragonlance books when I was much
12:41
younger.
12:42
>> Loved his Dragonlance books the minute
12:43
he started writing wow and Diablo stuff
12:44
though. Woo.
12:46
Yeah, yeah.
12:47
Even his Diablo stuff I would say I have
12:49
more of an affection for than actually I
12:51
can't I can't say that with a straight
12:52
face. Never mind.
12:53
>> [laughter]
12:54
>> But I will say that I feel like in this
12:57
particular case Dawn of the Aspects is
12:59
probably the least Knaaky of any of the
13:02
Knaak novels. Mhm. And yet Knaak is
13:05
Knaak.
13:07
He can't really help himself and I feel
13:09
like a part of the problem is is that
13:11
there's a there's an I don't know if you
13:13
remember the story but there's an
13:14
infamous story about when they told
13:16
Knaak to write the uh
13:19
the you know War of the Ancients books.
13:21
He created a demon named Hakkar the
13:23
Houndmaster. Mhm.
13:25
Then when Blizzard came and did World of
13:28
Warcraft after that book came out, they
13:31
created another Hakkar spelled exactly
13:33
the same because he's not a Houndmaster
13:35
anymore. He's a big lizard.
13:37
A flying snake thing and wind serpent.
13:40
And so it's just like sometimes it's not
13:43
Knaak, sometimes it's them and then
13:45
sometimes it's very much Knaak. Anytime
13:48
you certain conversations that happen in
13:51
a certain way, that's that's very Knaaky
13:54
and like he loves to have one guy show
13:56
up and tell everybody what they just saw
13:59
happen again.
14:01
It's not even just exposition. It's like
14:04
Oh lord, the temple got blown up. Yes,
14:06
as you see the temple had to be exploded
14:08
in order Okay, we get it Mr. old red
14:11
dragon guy. We we get it. You don't have
14:14
to tell us what we just watched. So
14:16
yeah, it it is one of the I just feel
14:18
like in this particular case it's more
14:21
a convenience than it is you know, Knaak
14:24
becoming Knaaky. Yeah, that's fair. I
14:26
feel like he held himself back a lot in
14:28
this particular
14:29
This leads us into Viskilinks second
14:32
question pertaining to this.
14:34
The story in the past is seen by Kalec
14:36
through the eyes of Malygos and most of
14:38
the events of the story seem to revolve
14:39
around him. Malygos is the one who
14:42
befriends both Alexstrasza and by
14:44
extension Ysera and Neltharion and
14:47
Neltharion seems to be the one who found
14:48
Nozdormu. So he is the one that links
14:52
the entire group together. Malygos
14:54
[snorts] was the one whom Tyr was
14:56
watching and the one he first contacted
14:58
when he tried to reach out for help from
15:00
the proto-dragons. So the others looked
15:03
to Malygos when dealing with Tyr.
15:05
When fighting Galakrond in the end
15:08
Malygos was the one who made the plans
15:11
and led the attack and even though it
15:13
was a joint effort Malygos was the one
15:16
to essentially deal the final blow by
15:19
lodging the boulder in Galakrond's
15:22
throat. And lastly Malygos was the one
15:25
who was approached and addressed by the
15:27
two Watchers in the end and he was the
15:29
first to accept the offer to become an
15:31
Aspect. Yet the next time we meet the
15:34
Aspects, which would be in the War of
15:36
the Scaleborn Alexstrasza has become the
15:39
leader and has been so ever since.
15:42
What do you think happened in between
15:44
these stories that made Alexstrasza the
15:47
leader instead of Malygos when the
15:49
events of Dawn of the Aspects clearly
15:51
sets him up for the leadership role?
15:53
Well, for one thing um
15:55
Dawn of the Aspects was written way
15:57
after Warcraft 3. Mhm. Warcraft 2 for
16:01
that matter. And then World of Warcraft
16:04
all of which put Alexstrasza in that
16:06
role. And then Knaak showed up and he's
16:08
like I like the smart guy. He does the
16:10
smart stuff. He should be in charge.
16:13
This is why I don't like Knaak's writing
16:15
of dragon books in because he has this
16:18
thing like Rhonin is his insert guy and
16:21
it's the same thing. I'm so smart. Why
16:23
won't they put me in charge? That's just
16:25
keeps happening. So
16:27
that's my cynical take on it. I'm going
16:28
to let Joe and Eric have like [laughter]
16:30
real takes now. Yeah, my
16:33
cynical. My my cynical take is that is
16:35
probably the actual answer for the
16:37
difference in the books and it's it's
16:38
again it's a criticism and I don't want
16:40
to turn this into the bash Richard Knaak
16:43
hour but
16:44
when you read the Richard Knaak novels
16:46
that are set in Diablo or Warcraft he
16:50
has a very particular way of writing and
16:53
or ignoring female characters or pushing
16:56
them to the side ignoring their
16:58
prominent roles to insert either his own
17:01
OC or somebody he feels is more
17:04
important. Unless they're evil. Unless
17:08
they're evil.
17:09
Or a hot elf chick. Yeah, but the
17:13
in-universe reason there is a potential
17:15
explanation.
17:17
Malygos is one of those ones that could
17:20
have been set up to be a leader. He is
17:21
very intelligent, very powerful. They
17:25
very clearly deferred to his knowledge
17:27
and intellect when they were setting up
17:28
their plans if you go take the book at
17:31
at face value but Malygos never wanted
17:34
to be a leader. He accepted the Aspect
17:37
role and went into you know, being the
17:40
Aspect of the Blue Dragonflight but then
17:43
immediately he was in charge of
17:45
essentially curating and maintaining
17:48
magical balance in the world, the lay
17:50
lines and everything else that happened
17:51
around it. And when you go through and
17:54
you do Dragonflight in particular and
17:56
you do all of the quests for the Blue
17:58
Dragonflight there's a whole overarching
18:00
thing about this and and Kalecgos talks
18:03
about this as well.
18:05
It's that Malygos never really wanted to
18:08
be a leader. He didn't necessarily
18:10
understand what he was getting himself
18:12
into. And the weight of that pressure,
18:15
the weight of being an Aspect, being in
18:18
charge of of magic, seeing the world
18:20
torn asunder, seeing somebody he
18:22
considered a very close friend turn to
18:26
madness and fight against them and
18:28
against the best interests that they
18:29
were laid forth and set forth to do.
18:32
Um
18:33
And then also seeing somebody else who
18:35
he considered a very good friend in the
18:37
form of Alexstrasza having been captured
18:40
and tortured and other unspeakable
18:42
things that we will not talk about on
18:43
this podcast done to her,
18:46
having you know, such tragedies befall
18:49
the people that he considered close and
18:51
essentially family
18:53
drove him nuts.
18:55
And what would you think would happen if
18:57
he was the default leader of that group?
18:59
Right? And it would have been another
19:02
insert of Aman'Thul essentially being in
19:04
charge of everybody. And what have we
19:06
learned about Aman'Thul over the course
19:08
of however long it's been?
19:11
I'm going to say that Odin was one of
19:12
his favorites. There's a reason Odin was
19:14
one of his favorites and Aman'Thul is
19:15
sort of a control freak. Malygos was
19:18
also sort of a control freak in his own
19:20
domain. It would have been worse. Now
19:24
the reason that writers set up
19:25
Alexstrasza
19:27
to sort of be the leader of the group is
19:30
because she's the heart of the group.
19:33
She is the one that cares. She is the
19:36
motherly Aspect. She is the one that
19:38
cares for all of the young of all of the
19:41
other flights. Again, this is stuff that
19:43
is is highlighted and shown in
19:46
Dragonflight specifically.
19:48
Yeah, you have to go to the temple,
19:49
right? You go to the temple. You go to
19:51
you go to the the the uh essentially the
19:53
Ruby Life Pools. The Ruby Life Pools are
19:56
where all the Aspects bring their
19:58
dragons uh dragon eggs to be tended and
20:00
hatched. When the Black Dragonflight is
20:02
coming back into the fold, the ones that
20:04
are not corrupted, did not fall, uh and
20:07
are under Wrathion, Sabellian, uh and I
20:10
Why can I not remember his name now? Uh
20:13
the third brother. Ebyssian? Ebyssian,
20:15
thank you. When they are all returning,
20:18
where do they bring the uncorrupted eggs
20:20
to? They bring it to the Life Pools.
20:22
Because those Life Pools will sustain
20:24
them with the water coming from the main
20:27
city of uh of uh
20:29
Wow, I was just there.
20:31
Um Yeah, I know. I'm having the same
20:32
problem. Valdrakken? Uh Valdrakken,
20:35
thank you.
20:36
Um You can even see the the uh the
20:39
aqueduct Yeah. delivering the Titan
20:41
waters. Yeah, because it takes the water
20:43
out of the Titan facility where uh Tyr's
20:46
Titan facility was. Water flows into the
20:48
city. Uh it's filtered in some capacity,
20:52
uh and then it winds up going uh back
20:54
down to the Ruby Life Pools carrying
20:56
with it whatever Tyr did to empower them
20:58
to become dragons. This is canonical.
21:01
And that light, where you are in the
21:04
Ruby Pools, the Ruby Life Pools, that is
21:06
where the Ruby Oathstone is, and that is
21:09
the symbol and oath of the Red
21:10
Dragonflight. And who better to lead
21:13
your people than the one that guarantees
21:15
the future of your generations?
21:18
And so Alexstrasza fits that role
21:20
perfectly. She's compassionate. She is
21:23
intelligent, maybe not as book-smart as
21:25
as uh Malygos was.
21:28
Um but she's
21:30
compassionate and understanding and has
21:32
an emotional intelligence that is so
21:35
paramount in true leadership that I
21:38
think that she was always meant to be
21:40
that role. Malygos, even though he may
21:43
have been better as far as a pure
21:44
intellect standpoint, it never would
21:46
have worked. And he would have gone
21:48
crazier well before Neltharion falling,
21:52
uh well before any of the tragedies
21:54
happening, well before humans and and
21:56
the the humanoid races, the mortal races
21:59
blowing each other up with magic, long
22:01
before any of that happened. He would
22:02
have been He probably would have been
22:04
the first to fall. It it probably would
22:06
have been him
22:07
uh instead of Neltharion that fell to
22:09
the call of an Old God. Eric? Yeah, I
22:11
agree with all this. I had a couple of
22:13
things that I was thinking about, too.
22:14
As far as why they looked to Malygos in
22:18
that time when they were still
22:19
proto-dragons. He was the oldest, which
22:22
doesn't seem like it matters that much.
22:24
It definitely doesn't matter like once
22:26
you get to Wrath of the Lich King. It's
22:27
a little bit like twins being like, "I'm
22:29
older." Yeah, 1 minute older, you know,
22:31
but back then, you know, being a little
22:33
bit older might have had at least some
22:36
kind of significance.
22:38
Yeah. Um he had that rudimentary
22:40
language. He could com- maybe
22:42
communicate a little bit better. Um
22:44
but as far as like as soon as that
22:47
battle is over, you're looking for
22:48
different qualities in the leader of
22:51
someone a group going forward than okay,
22:55
you you did great in this specific
22:56
battle. In this specific situation we
22:58
just finished, it's now over, and we
23:00
have to turn the new chapter. Who is
23:03
going to lead us here?
23:05
And Malygos is like is nothing trying to
23:07
eat us right now? Okay, good. I'll be in
23:09
the library. And that's not what they're
23:11
looking for, you know, to lead the
23:13
dragons, you need someone who's going to
23:15
be like you said, the heart of the
23:16
dragons. And Alexstrasza has that going
23:19
for her. She's the you know, her her
23:21
word is life and and all of Azeroth. So
23:24
she, right from the start, is looking
23:26
like a much broader
23:28
thing under her charge than Malygos
23:30
who's just like, "Okay, I'm going to go
23:31
try to unlock more secrets of magic."
23:33
That's not that's not a good leader.
23:35
That's that's not a good uh
23:37
you know, task for the leader of
23:39
everything. He would see leading as a
23:41
distraction almost. So I yeah, I agree
23:43
that you want the person who the the the
23:45
the entity that's the heart of your
23:47
everything to be out front, you know?
23:49
Just cuz Egon makes all the gadgets and
23:51
comes up with a lot of the plans,
23:53
doesn't mean he's going to be the one,
23:55
you know, talking first when you go into
23:57
get the ghost out of the hotel. Yeah.
24:00
Yeah, I think another example that I
24:01
like in this similar description is
24:03
there is a reason that the Justice
24:05
League has the Trinity out in front. And
24:08
it's because Batman is a very good
24:10
strategist. Mhm.
24:12
But you don't want him doing the
24:14
battlefield calls. That's what Wonder
24:16
Woman is for. She's a better tactician.
24:18
Now, there was Superman and Wonder Woman
24:20
and Batman
24:21
>> We're So I was like we're talking about
24:22
the Justice League, not Batman: The
24:24
Animated Series, which is a completely
24:25
different Batman.
24:26
Please continue. Although even then that
24:28
Batman knows when to get in the back and
24:30
let the people run.
24:31
>> Yes. Uh but the reason Superman's so
24:34
important there is because as he himself
24:36
not didn't say, but Batman once did
24:38
about him, he's like, "You're the one
24:39
they'll all listen to. If I go out there
24:42
and tell everyone what to do, the people
24:44
who know me will They'll know that they
24:46
should, but you know, people who are not
24:49
usually here, they know who you are,
24:52
they're going to listen to you
24:54
immediately. And that's kind of what you
24:56
have with Alexstrasza.
24:58
They'll the the other dragon the other
25:00
uh you know, dragon aspects are going to
25:02
listen to her immediately. They're not
25:04
going to have to you know,
25:05
And also I think we forget sometimes
25:07
that
25:08
the Aspects had that whole period of
25:09
time after Neltharion betrayed them and
25:12
became Deathwing, where Malygos wasn't
25:15
just a little off. He was completely
25:18
mad. He was I make hat hats in the
25:22
Victorian period levels of mad.
25:24
He was barely coherent. So he couldn't
25:28
be in charge even if he wanted to. And I
25:30
think that a lot of the times what you
25:32
see as Malygos leading
25:35
is actually Malygos
25:37
being a They basically turn to him and
25:39
say, "Okay, smart guy, what what's the
25:42
op? What are we doing?" He tells them,
25:45
and then they do it. At no point does he
25:48
is he in command. Mhm. He is just
25:51
telling you guys
25:52
his plan that he came up with. You you
25:55
know, he's gotten Neltharion there who's
25:56
always going to back him for the first
25:58
10,000 years or so. And
26:01
you know, they the other three of them
26:03
are like, "Well, yeah, okay, it makes
26:04
sense. That makes sense to you? Yeah, it
26:06
made sense to me." So yeah, I I feel
26:08
like there's a lot of that period in
26:10
there where you've you've got to
26:12
remember that things started off one way
26:14
and then multiple changes happened.
26:17
Uh Neltharion Neltharion went evil. Um
26:20
Malygos went completely crazy. And you
26:24
had like three people left kind of
26:26
holding everything together.
26:28
Um one of them, a guy who sees alternate
26:30
timelines all the time. So he's never
26:33
quite sure where he is in chronolo-
26:35
chronologically speaking. He could be in
26:37
one timeline or another, he's not sure.
26:39
Um
26:41
You got Ysera who spent most of that
26:43
time literally asleep. Like even when
26:45
she was there talking to you, she was
26:48
asleep.
26:49
And so it really comes down to
26:51
Alexstrasza. She's the only one She's
26:53
present. maintained the group. Yeah,
26:55
exactly. So I I do feel like it's not a
26:58
question of, you know, Malygos is the
27:00
leader as much as it is Malygos is the
27:03
is the thinker. He's going to come up
27:04
with ideas, and then the rest of them
27:06
are going to come together and decide
27:08
whether or not they want to use them.
27:09
Usually they will because they'll be
27:11
good ideas. But everyone remembers that
27:13
he's not He was never fully on. Once
27:17
once they all got their Aspect
27:19
abilities, Malygos was always a little
27:21
strange. Yeah, and I mean think about
27:23
it, right? Like Like we we talked about
27:25
this before, you have to have a
27:27
consideration with like
27:29
what their purview is. So like
27:31
Neltharion being the Aspect of the Earth
27:33
and deep spaces um is
27:36
like that's the connection to Azeroth
27:37
that the other ones kind of don't have.
27:40
Um right? Like of the of the Aspects,
27:43
the two that are most linked to the
27:45
entity of Azeroth
27:47
are Malygos and Neltharion. Um because
27:50
Neltharion, again, the deep places where
27:52
where we've spent two expansions now
27:54
going deep underground and learning
27:56
about the roots of the World Tree
27:57
Teldrassil and how far that expands,
28:00
looking at the underground civilizations
28:02
that have spawned up, looking at all
28:03
these large spaces and understanding
28:05
that there's a whole world beneath the
28:06
surface that we never knew existed until
28:08
the War Within. I mean, we speculated,
28:11
but we didn't know for sure. Uh we had
28:13
hints of it in Battle for Azeroth when
28:15
we were uh or not Battle for Azeroth, in
28:17
Legion when we were in Highmountain. We
28:19
got little tiny little tiny tidbits of
28:21
it. Um
28:23
And of course, like that's so connected
28:25
to Azeroth that what's happening to
28:27
Azeroth is going to have an effect on uh
28:29
Neltharion, and it's going to make them
28:31
more susceptible. The same thing happens
28:32
for Malygos. The ley lines are not some
28:35
insignificant thing. This is arcane
28:39
energy that webs the entirety of
28:42
Azeroth. Azeroth is,
28:44
at her core, a titan or at least was a
28:47
titan at some point. And what are titans
28:49
if not like batteries of supreme power,
28:52
right? These ley lines connect into her
28:55
into the fabric of her existence. So
28:57
now, Malygos is tapped into that as
28:59
well. So when things like, I don't know,
29:03
the world explodes,
29:05
uh and everything is thrown to chaos,
29:08
he's going to feel that in the same way
29:10
that Neltharion does. Uh when things are
29:13
ripped uh holes are ripped in fabric of
29:15
reality uh between dimensions, uh boring
29:18
a hole through the pillar of the pillar
29:20
of the world uh from Deepholm straight
29:23
up into the world, Malygos is going to
29:25
feel that just as much as anything else
29:27
that's connected, right? There are
29:30
in like going with Alexstrasza and and
29:33
uh Nozdormu and Ysera, while they are
29:36
connected to Azeroth in different ways,
29:39
they're not the same level of connected.
29:42
Nozdormu is kind of not connected,
29:44
really. He's sort of off like Matt
29:47
pointed, He's off managing the time ways
29:49
essentially. He can see all
29:51
possibilities. Bros in space. Like his
29:54
mind is out there. He is He is on an
29:56
astral journey that is fueled by peyote
29:58
and dreams at this point.
30:00
>> You you've seen the guy doing the
30:02
with his hands and this galaxies
30:04
everywhere? That guy. Yeah. And then you
30:06
have
30:07
God, you have Ysera who's who's dreaming
30:10
in a
30:11
essentially an idealized version of
30:14
Azeroth or what we're starting to learn
30:16
is a little more deeply connected
30:19
from very specific points to Azeroth,
30:21
but isn't affected the same way. If
30:24
something happens on Azeroth, the dream
30:27
is supposed to be an unwavering backup
30:30
copy. That At least that's what Ysera's
30:34
told, right? Uh so
30:37
and even then Ysera is also likely more
30:39
connected to the Shadowlands as we found
30:42
out as we go into Shadowlands and learn
30:45
about Ardenweald and learn about the
30:46
connection between Ardenweald and this
30:49
space.
30:50
Uh not to mention the connection to the
30:52
Rift of Alm, but that's a whole other
30:53
thing.
30:54
Ysera is out in space, too. She's
30:56
dreamy. She's language. She is She is
30:58
out there. And yes, she is a you know,
31:02
wonderful aspect who cares about her
31:04
people and cares about the the oaths
31:06
that her people have
31:08
uh you know, pledged to like the the uh
31:11
centaur folks
31:12
uh and and the people of Azeroth, but
31:14
she's got something else to do that
31:16
isn't as connected. And Alexstrasza is
31:18
connected to all life,
31:20
but what does that actually mean? Is
31:22
that life connected to Azeroth? I would
31:24
argue that it's not and it's more akin
31:27
to life of us, the mortals, the the life
31:31
of things that can potentially die,
31:34
right? So, her purview is completely
31:37
different. She's not necessarily tapped
31:39
into Azeroth in the same way that the
31:40
other two are. So, again,
31:43
Malygos, just a a
31:46
ripe like position and and and
31:48
possibility of just going off the deep
31:51
so deeply affected potentially by
31:52
everything else. Sorry, go ahead, man.
31:54
No, I'm just agreeing with you. That's
31:55
literally me just going, "Yeah, you
31:56
preach it." But yeah, it's
31:59
You want a leader that people will
32:00
follow
32:01
and Malygos sort of not that like when
32:04
he says, "Okay, we're going to go
32:05
redirect these ley lines." I could see a
32:06
lot of dragons being like, "I don't
32:08
know. I don't I don't trust that. If it
32:11
If it comes from Alexstrasza, it comes a
32:12
little bit more, you know, trustworthy."
32:14
I can imagine being like Malygos going,
32:16
"Okay, guys, first I got to explain to
32:18
you how this thing's magical resonance
32:21
Break it down. We just break it down." I
32:25
can imagine back before he went crazy
32:27
and Lotharion being, "Dude, you're at a
32:28
12. We need you at like a six. Just Just
32:31
break it down."
32:32
>> And that's how Lotharion, the mad
32:33
scientist of the group. Yeah, not
32:35
Lotharion, but he was also the most
32:37
personable of them. Mhm. Like not that
32:41
you know, Alexstrasza isn't personable
32:43
because your mom isn't personable, you
32:45
know? She loved all of them, but at the
32:47
same time, that can be great or it can
32:49
be like when you disappoint your nana
32:52
and she just gives you that look and
32:53
you're like, "Yes, I I'm aware that I
32:55
have done a bad thing.
32:57
You don't have to throw a shoe at me,
32:59
but you can if you want to. Uh I get it.
33:01
I'm wrong." Whereas Lotharion never made
33:03
people feel that way up until he
33:06
he started trying to destroy the world.
33:08
But up until that, he was always like,
33:09
"You know what? I I think we can work
33:11
this out. You know, uh you guys have
33:15
your opinion. Me and me and my bro here
33:18
have their own opinions, but we can we
33:19
can work this out. We can all come
33:20
together." So yeah, in a really weird
33:22
way,
33:23
um all of them were bad choices for
33:26
leader except Alexstrasza.
33:28
>> [laughter]
33:28
>> Yeah. Well, hopefully that answers your
33:30
question with uh and balances out our
33:32
cynicism.
33:33
But thank you very much for those
33:35
questions, Viscalink. Uh I think we're
33:37
going to go ahead and move on to our
33:38
next one.
33:39
Uh we're going back to our friend Maren
33:42
who sent a
33:43
lovely set of questions before. We're
33:45
finally making our way through some of
33:46
them.
33:47
Uh this one is after the events of
33:50
retaking of Lordaeron and Gilneas, how
33:52
do you imagine the relationship between
33:54
these two kingdoms evolving?
33:56
Calia and Tess may not be full allies,
33:59
but would they remain diplomatic
34:01
relations? And after so many wars
34:03
without the aid of the the Val'kyr,
34:06
would the Forsaken population not have
34:07
declined enough to threaten their
34:08
ability to defend their borders against
34:10
the Scourge or even the Alliance? What
34:13
do you think are the broader
34:14
implications of advancing Gilneas and
34:16
Lordaeron forward in time? Very good
34:19
question and for context, if you're not
34:21
familiar with sort of the abrasive
34:24
relationship that has happened between
34:27
particularly the Forsaken and Gilneas,
34:30
uh the Forsaken took Gilneas and Gilneas
34:34
had to be taken back. Um it's it was a
34:38
very rough situation that Sylvanas left
34:41
the Forsaken in
34:42
and as a result, there is un-
34:47
verified complications
34:49
that we will potentially be facing.
34:50
Before I give my answer, I'll turn it
34:52
over to you guys to speak your peace.
34:55
I want to go to first cuz Uh I think
34:57
that
34:58
you can be terrible neighbors, but only
35:00
it takes really terrible neighbors to
35:02
literally build a wall in between you
35:04
while you're still allies. I mean,
35:06
uh I think that maybe Calia and Tess
35:10
Sometimes it takes a new generation to
35:12
forget the last generation's grudges.
35:14
So, you know, it doesn't get too much
35:16
worse diplomatically than Genn, but can
35:20
can Tess get over some of the things
35:22
that Genn never could? Can they come
35:23
together? I think I think
35:25
re- no matter what, it will be
35:26
interesting to see how the story goes
35:29
forward and how these two
35:31
kingdoms can kind of maybe become
35:35
uh allies, maybe become uh
35:38
work together a little bit more. Um but
35:42
but yeah, I I think that it's it's just
35:45
going to be fun to see. Matt? First off,
35:48
because Eric made me think of it for a
35:50
second, I'm going to talk about the fact
35:52
that Genn Greymane wasn't just He wasn't
35:54
just building a wall. He deliberately
35:57
left half of his kingdom out of the wall
36:00
because he could only build a good wall
36:03
in one narrow path that was in the
36:06
middle of his country. So, there's a
36:08
reason there's a there the entire reason
36:10
that Darius Crowley went nuts and tried
36:13
to take over the kingdom was because his
36:16
entire like his barony for lack of a
36:18
better word was on the other side of the
36:20
wall along with a whole bunch of other
36:22
people because that's where the farms
36:25
Before Greymane did that, Lordaeron and
36:28
Gilneas were about as good neighbors as
36:30
you could get when you're dealing with
36:32
kingdoms ruled by egomaniac human. Um
36:36
And even Terenas, for all that we love
36:37
Terenas. Terenas
36:39
was very much an egomaniac. Uh I think
36:41
you have to be a bit of an egomaniac to
36:44
rule
36:45
a kingdom in a world where you're
36:47
surrounded by beings that live 10 to 100
36:50
times as long as you do. And yet you're
36:52
bossing them around. There's a bit of
36:53
egomania. Uh but so that's the first
36:56
thing I wanted to point out.
36:57
Uh second thing, I don't think that
37:00
either kingdom is focusing on the other
37:02
right now. Like they've got like their
37:04
own like Gilneas is still trying to
37:06
rebuild. Yeah.
37:07
>> And keep in mind that Gilneas Both
37:09
Gilneas and Lordaeron right now think of
37:12
Silverpine as theirs. They're busy.
37:15
They're not fighting each other, but I
37:17
guarantee you
37:19
at some point this is going to come to
37:22
blows. Cuz to Gilneas, especially people
37:24
like Crowley, Silverpine is all Gilnean
37:27
land. It's It's hereditarily theirs. It
37:30
was theirs for generations. To
37:32
Lordaeron, you left. You built a wall
37:35
and you left us on the other side of it
37:37
to die horribly from an undead-creating
37:39
plague. And now that we're all undead, F
37:41
you. We're keeping it. So, I do feel
37:44
there could be conflict between them. I
37:46
think right now they're not focused on
37:49
it because
37:50
um the sky just ripped open and pure
37:52
void is happening and everything's bad.
37:55
And just you know, nobody It doesn't
37:57
matter how much of this
37:58
postage-stamp-sized planet you run if
38:01
the whole thing gets devoured by the
38:02
void.
38:03
Uh so yeah, for right now, not a major
38:06
concern. I definitely think that Calia
38:08
and Tess are more likely to be willing
38:11
to talk than than their pre- pre-
38:14
predecessors were, especially Genn who
38:16
had to actually have his son get
38:17
murdered in front of him
38:19
before he started mellowing out.
38:21
Actually, he had to have his son
38:22
murdered in front of him, then he had to
38:24
completely ruin Sylvanas's day in order
38:27
to finally feel like, "Okay, I don't I
38:29
don't need this all-encompassing hate of
38:32
of these guys anymore. I can I can
38:34
throttle back on it." But for a lot of
38:37
the time, Genn was completely completely
38:39
unreasonable. And he is responsible for
38:41
a lot of the problems that Lordaeron and
38:44
and Gilneas had.
38:46
I mean, he's directly responsible for
38:47
the fall of Gilneas. He's directly
38:49
responsible for
38:51
a lot of the harm that befell the
38:52
Alliance in Lordaeron in particular.
38:55
He's responsible for the the Let's be up
38:57
front here with this. He's responsible
38:59
for the reason that Sylvanas was being
39:02
pushed
39:03
into going in there. Sylvanas did not
39:05
particularly care about Gilneas. She was
39:07
getting threatened by our our friendly
39:10
neighborhood orc warlord. Um I want to
39:13
say Saurfang, but it's not Saurfang. Uh
39:15
it's
39:15
>> Garrosh. Garrosh, thank you. Um you
39:19
know, Garrosh was literally telling her,
39:21
"I'll kill you. If I will kill you and
39:23
your people. I will break you in half. I
39:24
will scatter you. I do not get why we
39:27
even let you into the Horde, so don't
39:30
don't press me on that. Just do what I'm
39:32
telling you."
39:33
And so she was basically her whole thing
39:35
in Gilneas was, "You guys need to
39:37
surrender as soon as possible so I can
39:39
placate that maniac and get back to what
39:41
I care about." That's is not saying
39:42
she's a great person, you know, she was
39:44
very much not, but she didn't want to be
39:46
there. But Genn kept making it personal
39:50
and never make it personal when you're
39:52
up against somebody whose soul is
39:54
currently broken up into multiple pieces
39:56
and stored in other dimensions. I know
39:58
we didn't know that at the time, but
39:59
still everybody knew Sylvanas was not
40:01
somebody you wanted to keep pushing.
40:03
Either win a win a victory and get it so
40:06
it's too expensive for her or don't, but
40:09
don't keep pushing. You can't win a war
40:12
of I'm making you angry
40:14
with with Sylvanas Windrunner. It just
40:16
isn't going to happen.
40:18
So yeah, the whole thing the whole thing
40:19
is
40:20
I definitely think they have a chance
40:22
for better relations now, but I don't
40:23
think it's going to be easy and I don't
40:25
think the part of the problem with
40:27
generational stuff
40:29
is when one of the two peoples doesn't
40:31
necessarily have the option of aging out
40:35
and dying and having their children come
40:37
in cuz the Forsaken don't have that. At
40:39
this point I think the only way the
40:40
Forsaken can even
40:42
make more Forsaken is to bury bodies in
40:45
places with the plague and hope it it
40:47
gets them up. That's all they have now.
40:49
They don't have any of the stuff they
40:51
used to have. Yet. Yet is an operative
40:54
word here though. Um Yet is an
40:56
operative, but I'm just saying from the
40:57
perspective of if you're trying to think
40:59
of them you know them versus Gilneas in
41:02
any kind of
41:03
interaction, the Forsaken are not in a
41:06
place where they're going to be like oh
41:07
we we can forget that. It only happened
41:09
so many years ago. Like you're still
41:11
here and you're going to be here. So I I
41:14
feel like there's lots of obstacles, but
41:16
definitely a possibility for it to get
41:18
Yeah, so
41:20
I think that you are both on the right
41:23
path and I definitely agree with the
41:24
what you guys are saying. I think that
41:27
we are at the
41:29
most opportune moment for there to be
41:31
diplomatic relations
41:34
in particular between the Forsaken and
41:36
the people of Gilneas. The problem that
41:38
you're going to run into is sort of that
41:40
memory, right? The people of Gilneas are
41:44
not easily going to forget the fact that
41:45
it was the Forsaken forces regardless of
41:48
what the reason were that displaced them
41:51
from their homes No, it just happened.
41:54
And it just happened. That caused them
41:55
to seek shelter in Teldrassil that was
41:58
then burned to the ground. How many of
42:00
their friends and family lost their
42:02
lives in the burning of the tree?
42:04
Um how many of them were sent to the
42:07
Shadowlands
42:09
never to be seen of again? How many died
42:11
defending their new adopted home at that
42:14
point? Then to retake it, how many had
42:17
to die in retaking of Gilneas?
42:19
And then from the other side of things,
42:22
the Forsaken that are there
42:24
they remember the tragedy that befell
42:25
them. They remember you know Lordaeron
42:28
being taken from them, being consumed,
42:31
having to be taken back um
42:34
twice twice over essentially. Um these
42:37
are not quick healing wounds. And as
42:40
Matt and and you have pointed out here
42:42
Myrun
42:43
they
42:45
as of right now the Forsaken cannot
42:47
really replenish their number. They have
42:49
to hope that either they can find some
42:52
of the roaming Scourge that are out
42:54
there and get them to come back to a
42:55
semblance of themselves
42:57
in much of the way that some of our main
42:59
NPCs have done so
43:02
basically getting control of their own
43:03
faculties
43:05
which we have seen is able to happen,
43:07
but we don't know what sparks that or
43:10
they have to start making deals with
43:13
either entities of a cosmic level or
43:17
start looking at at Calia and what
43:21
happened with Calia.
43:23
Because Calia is not a Forsaken. She is
43:26
neither alive nor dead. She is a being
43:29
of both necrotic and light energy. She
43:33
is
43:34
resurrected in an in-between state
43:36
perpetually. Is that something that they
43:38
could potentially look to the future to
43:40
have all Forsaken ascend to? Cuz
43:45
we're in this weird spot, right? Where
43:48
a lot of the newer Forsaken
43:51
are not decaying shambling masses of
43:54
animated tissue.
43:56
Right?
43:57
When you look at why can I not remember
44:01
her brother's name?
44:03
Jaina Proudmoore's brother that was
44:04
raised. Derek?
44:05
Derek. Yeah. Derek is raised and is
44:08
following Calia around. He is not a
44:10
typical Forsaken either.
44:12
If you look at him. Right? Nathanos
44:15
started as a regular Forsaken, was
44:18
raised and elevated to something else
44:20
before he died and was sent to the
44:22
Shadowlands. We assume he's still in the
44:25
Shadowlands.
44:26
There could be a new rebirth for the
44:28
Forsaken. It's one of those one of those
44:29
things that I know Matt and I have
44:31
talked about it before. Liz and I have
44:33
talked about it before
44:35
um where we would like to see a more
44:37
Forsaken-centric
44:39
storyline at some point that deals with
44:42
this exact thing because it is one of
44:45
the it's not even a loose end. It's a
44:47
frayed rope.
44:48
Like this thing is like in a thousand
44:50
shattered pieces that I'd love to see
44:53
have some semblance of being stitched
44:55
back together. That said, going to the
44:57
root of your question, the existential
44:59
crisis aside for both of them
45:02
Tess and Calia may be able to meet and
45:06
start mending some wounds.
45:09
Not necessarily BFFs, not necessarily
45:12
we're going to open a trade agreement
45:14
between our our two
45:16
you know kingdoms here,
45:18
but
45:19
there's a world in which I can see
45:21
Gilneas falls under attack by forces of
45:23
the Naga. It's right on the sea. It
45:25
could happen.
45:27
And the closest people that could
45:29
potentially respond to that are the
45:31
Forsaken.
45:33
And I could see Calia rallying her
45:36
troops and showing up to the aid of
45:38
Gilneas. Gilneas maybe not being super
45:41
happy about it, but being pressed by
45:44
Azshara's forces and losing your home
45:47
again versus accepting the help of
45:49
somebody who was formerly your enemy
45:51
that's a possibility of something that
45:53
could happen. And the same is the
45:54
reverse. If something were to happen to
45:56
Lordaeron
45:57
the closest allies that they could call
45:59
upon
46:00
would potentially be Gilneas.
46:03
Which is part of the whole reason
46:05
Lordaeron fell in the first place when
46:06
Gilneas closed their damn doors.
46:08
Oh, well the the Alliance is going to
46:11
handle this and we are not part of the
46:13
Alliance. Cool. Had they been involved,
46:16
Lordaeron may never have fallen in the
46:17
first place, right? Like
46:20
it's a weird complicated
46:23
political mess.
46:26
But if anybody could see a way through
46:28
it to
46:29
maybe just becoming frenemies at the
46:31
very least, it would be Calia and Tess.
46:34
Like Eric pointed out, they're a younger
46:36
generation and I'm air quoting that.
46:38
They have different sensibilities.
46:41
Yes, they've lived through war,
46:43
but they didn't live through all of the
46:45
wars. They don't have the same scars.
46:47
Like Genn Greymane, he is who he is
46:50
because of the scars that he had to bear
46:53
and knowing when he messed up and what
46:55
it cost him and his people. You see it
46:58
even now in the current expansion when
47:00
you're dealing with Turalyon or when
47:02
you're dealing with Lor'themar or you're
47:04
dealing with all these NPCs that have
47:07
been around for thousands of years
47:10
essentially. They have a different
47:11
perspective and they have a lot more
47:13
wounds to bear.
47:15
Right? Like I think we talked about this
47:17
before.
47:18
A mortal human life is maybe a hundred
47:21
years, right? At like its longest not
47:24
including Medivh or Khadgar cuz those
47:26
are Yeah, if you're a mage if you're a
47:27
mage then it tends to get blurry. Yeah,
47:30
but for the average person, the average
47:32
human, it's maybe a hundred years if
47:34
you're lucky. An elf essentially is
47:37
immortal even
47:38
when they didn't have the blessing of
47:40
the tree, they were long-lived and for
47:42
comparison to others, they might as well
47:44
be immortal.
47:46
We don't know a true troll's lifespan.
47:48
We don't know if if there's a blessing
47:50
that keeps them alive longer than that.
47:51
We've never explored that. There's a
47:53
possibility that they could live a
47:55
longer life as well, but everybody else
47:59
their lives are gone in the blink of an
48:00
eye cosmically speaking and the wounds
48:03
they bear are grievous,
48:06
but they don't get to stack up as much.
48:07
Like a human warrior is can be knarled,
48:10
can be
48:11
uh you know tons of psychic damage can
48:13
pile upon itself, can make them into a
48:15
horrible person. We've seen it over and
48:18
over and over again. Now compound that
48:20
by a factor of 10, a factor of 20 and
48:24
now you have all of these scars that are
48:28
impossible to move beyond sometimes and
48:30
really affect your personality and your
48:31
decision-making. Calia and Tess do not
48:33
have that. They have different scars.
48:35
They have their own baggage, but they
48:37
are I don't want to say fresh enough.
48:39
Their wounds are similar enough
48:42
their complications are similar enough
48:45
that they can meet on common ground. And
48:48
you also have Fordring's daughter who is
48:51
essentially a freelancer at this point.
48:54
Mara. Uh who could theoretically also be
48:57
in the mix of this as well. So
49:00
we have potential for these wounds to be
49:02
healed.
49:03
Um it'll just take time and I do think
49:06
that the probably best course of action
49:07
will be frenemy. Not best friends, but
49:10
when the chips are truly really down and
49:13
you are in your most dire, we'll
49:14
probably show up at your doorstep and
49:16
and help you out here because if you're
49:18
okay, that means one less problem for me
49:20
to deal with in the future. That type of
49:22
situation. I don't know if there's
49:23
anything else you want to guys want to
49:25
add to that or build off that. Yeah, I
49:27
mean
49:28
all 12 chapters of World of Warcraft and
49:30
even before have been who's the biggest
49:32
threat to me right now as a faction, as
49:35
a nation. And so
49:37
you know, we see these big cosmic
49:39
threats sometimes happen and then when
49:40
they get resolved, it's back to
49:42
squabbling. And like we've got a pretty
49:44
big cosmic threat going on right now,
49:46
but it's interesting that this is like
49:47
such a big one that what comes next
49:49
might be a little bit more of these
49:51
stories kind of catching up and finding
49:53
out what happens over here and what
49:55
happens with these two factions and that
49:57
this is this would be a good candidate
49:59
to see what would happen once these
50:02
people kind of come back from the
50:04
battlefields of, you know, Quel'Thalas
50:06
and Void Storm and wherever we're going
50:08
and whatever happens in the last Titan.
50:11
And then maybe if there isn't such a big
50:13
cosmic threat, these things that have
50:14
been simmering all over
50:17
are, you know, now we have to deal with
50:19
it. Now we have to figure out, okay, all
50:20
of our people are back here. How are we
50:21
going to deal with this neighbor, with
50:23
this ally? Are we
50:24
with this situation?
50:27
I think that it
50:29
once we get past some of these big
50:30
conflicts now, it could be time to take
50:32
a look at, you know, the world knowing
50:35
how successful some of the revamped
50:37
zones and revisited places have been,
50:39
maybe we'll revisit some of the places
50:41
like this in the future and we'll get a
50:43
big focus on it instead of, you know, a
50:45
side quest. Matt, anything to add? No, I
50:47
think we're pretty good. Plus I've
50:49
rambled on a lot today.
50:50
>> [laughter]
50:50
>> I mean, so have I.
50:52
Uh I I Eric, I do think that's a very
50:53
interesting uh thing to note as well,
50:56
especially because
50:57
again, for context, if you're not
50:59
playing Midnight, the big deal thing
51:01
that we're dealing with right now is
51:02
that
51:03
uh the Isle of Quel'Danas, the the area
51:06
around Silvermoon and the Sunwell is
51:08
under siege by Zalathath and uh the Void
51:11
Storm. But the problem is that Void
51:13
Storm, while it is, and I'm going to air
51:16
quote localized right now,
51:18
uh will blot out essentially the
51:20
entirety of the the the skies of Azeroth
51:23
if it's left to its own devices. Um
51:25
that is a huge cosmic threat and
51:28
it's a threat that will cause many
51:31
people of the world, ones that we know
51:34
of and several that we don't necessarily
51:37
know of, uh to take notice and possibly
51:41
show up. And there's also a ripe uh area
51:45
for further conflict. One thing that I
51:48
brought up a while ago and we've talked
51:50
about very briefly, we know from the War
51:52
Within that the Arathi are out there.
51:54
The Arathi are very light focused. Their
51:57
version of light light focused is a
51:59
different flavor of light focused than
52:01
the Army of the and I think that there
52:04
is potential for conflict there as well
52:08
that if they look up to the sky and see
52:11
a giant Void Storm showing up,
52:13
I'm pretty sure the Arathi Empire is
52:15
going to probably send some ships to go
52:17
say, "Yo, that's void.
52:19
Uh we don't like void. Let's go burn
52:21
that out."
52:23
and show up. And not just have conflicts
52:25
with the Army of the Light, but
52:26
conflicts with the Horde, conflicts with
52:27
the Alliance, conflict with basically
52:30
everybody because they don't worship the
52:31
light the same way they do.
52:33
Um
52:34
we could
52:35
>> What are they going to think of What are
52:36
they going to think of the Void Elves
52:37
when they meet them more? Oh, yeah. What
52:39
What are they going to think of all the
52:40
Elves when they meet them for cuz don't
52:42
forget like they were high Elves that
52:44
left with an expedition and they don't
52:47
necessarily know all of the different
52:49
flavors of Elves at this point. What
52:51
happens when they meet a Nightborne?
52:53
What happens when they they see the
52:55
current state of Night Elves? What it
52:57
What happens when they see the current
52:59
state of Oh, oops, there are no more
53:01
highborne anymore. Uh they are all
53:04
either, you know, maybe there's some
53:06
high Elves here and there, uh but
53:08
they're either blood Elves now. How do
53:10
they feel about that? Or uh the like you
53:12
said, the Void Elves or
53:14
uh
53:15
any of the the various different flavors
53:17
like there's conflict that potentially
53:18
happen there. What happens when they see
53:20
the state of the human empire? What
53:21
happens when they see the Forsaken? I
53:23
mean, sure they saw a couple like
53:25
shambling zombie dudes come by and help
53:26
them in Hollowfall, but once they find
53:28
out there's like a whole nation, they
53:30
might
53:31
who knows how they'll react. We We only
53:33
saw like a They haven't spoken to
53:35
anybody in Hollowfall. No, they haven't.
53:37
The only ones that have have been
53:39
um
53:40
what's her name? Why can't I uh
53:42
Why can't I remember her name?
53:44
The
53:44
>> Faelan? Faelan. Faelan's the only one
53:47
cuz she was present and and I think
53:48
Faelan's adopted mother
53:50
uh because they were present at the
53:51
negotiations. That's it. Right? Other
53:54
than I mean, the adventure
53:55
our characters have
53:56
>> Empire itself has had no contact with
53:59
the people of Hollowfall. Yeah, that's
54:00
what I'm saying. The people of
54:01
Hollowfall are in a desperate place and
54:03
when we show up as saviors, they're kind
54:05
of grateful and they're willing to
54:06
overlook some things, but the emperor
54:08
back over in wherever he is might not be
54:12
so kind. Yeah, or what happens if they
54:14
come back and like, "Well, these are our
54:15
Highlands. We own this."
54:17
>> left You left this place and you let
54:20
these aliens from another world take
54:22
over this one spot and you let them take
54:24
it back again. No, we're taking it. This
54:27
is our place. This is [snorts] Arathi.
54:29
We are the Arathi. This is our homeland
54:32
and we are taking it back.
54:34
I mean, that and they might do that. Who
54:35
knows? Yeah, or or the the simple act of
54:38
well, how are they going to feel when
54:39
they see other entities and beings that
54:43
can wield the light like Alonsus Faol.
54:46
Like how are they going to feel about
54:47
that? Here's this undead, you know,
54:50
formerly human
54:52
who can wield the light. That's going to
54:54
shatter worldview. Like that could see
54:56
that being a threat to the emperor's
54:58
rule, right? Where all of the teachings
55:01
uh that they have, all of the
55:03
uh the Arathi light bearing teachings
55:06
start now being questioned and we have
55:09
never seen anything bad from that ever
55:11
happening, have we guys? We're not even
55:13
talking about the fact that there's
55:14
tentacle faced space goats that can be
55:19
completely controlled by the light and
55:21
like have their mortality completely
55:23
removed. And there then there's the ones
55:26
that didn't have that happen, but they
55:27
still live a whole ridiculously long
55:29
time. And they've they come in big
55:31
crystal ships. Like
55:33
they might not make them angry, but they
55:35
might be like, "What the heck is that?"
55:38
And and again, It's starting to It's
55:40
starting to sound like in uh the
55:43
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, when
55:45
that planet, you know, they come out
55:47
they do they have clouds or something
55:48
and they can't see the universe. They
55:50
think they're the whole universe and as
55:51
soon as they see the rest of the
55:52
universe, they think, "This has to go."
55:54
And they set out to destroy everything.
55:55
That's I mean, the Arathi Empire has
55:57
been isolated for so long. Once they
55:59
make all this contact, they might be
56:00
like, "No, no, no, no, no. We Our way is
56:02
the way and everybody else is the
56:04
enemy." That's kind of setting them up
56:06
for a for maybe like a a bigger
56:08
uh conflict past the World Soul saga.
56:12
Interesting. Yeah, I mean, and the
56:14
reason we're bringing this up is cuz
56:15
like yes, the the cosmic threat is is
56:18
eminent. Um it could potentially be a
56:21
thing that happens, you know, and and
56:23
becomes wildly overbearing. But these
56:27
tensions, these diplomatic tensions,
56:29
these are the stories that I think, and
56:31
I'll be honest here, I think they're
56:32
more interesting than Zalathath trying
56:34
to take over the world. I I think that
56:36
they're more personal, they're easier to
56:38
feel invested into.
56:40
Um
56:42
and it's one of those things where I
56:44
would like to see more of it when the
56:45
storm has calmed down.
56:48
And I don't mean that uh in in like
56:52
I hate what's going on kind of way. I
56:53
mean that in a I'm just more interested
56:56
in what happens in the after. It's just
56:58
It's just how I feel. Go ahead. It'd be
57:00
It'd be so fascinating to get a there is
57:03
no next big huge thing going on
57:05
expansion to get a pause expansion to
57:09
get a catch up to get a here's here's
57:12
where we are at all these different
57:13
places in the world that either we've
57:14
already been or something and we're not
57:17
racing to get this new resource or
57:18
material or we're not
57:20
flying off to a new planet or continent,
57:22
just a here's all the stuff that has
57:24
been simmering and what would happen if
57:27
the people on either side didn't have
57:29
something more important to do to either
57:31
unite them or distract them to have
57:33
everything kind of come crashing back
57:35
to, well, what are we going to do about
57:37
this now? I I would love that. Yeah, and
57:40
and I think we're long overdue for it
57:41
and it's in those moments especially
57:43
after the existential threat has been
57:45
dealt with that it is most ripe for it.
57:48
The problem that we're running into
57:49
right now is that
57:51
we went from the War Within, which was
57:53
an existential threat, uh a massive one
57:56
at the end of it at a cosmic level that
57:58
we I mean, we kind of knew it was
58:00
coming, but
58:02
uh regardless of how you feel about it,
58:03
that's where we ended, and then
58:05
immediately into another threat, right?
58:08
The And it wasn't even like it was
58:09
ramping up. It's the same level of
58:11
threat as Demetrius as far as I'm
58:13
concerned, right? It It has a threat the
58:16
threatening possibility to erase the
58:19
cosmos. Uh
58:21
again, there has not been a cool down
58:24
period. And we're probably not going to
58:26
get one as we move into the last Titan.
58:28
It's probably going to be ramp ramp ramp
58:29
ramp ramp, but after the last Titan is
58:32
done,
58:33
like that that sort of introspective
58:36
moment that we need after all this, I
58:39
think is going to have to happen. And
58:41
that's when I think this stuff starts
58:43
coming into play. And not that I'm
58:45
trying to rush things along, but I
58:47
personally can't wait to get I'm going
58:48
to just say it cuz I say it every
58:50
Imagine if the the WoW expansion after
58:52
uh the last Titan is basically just
58:56
World of Warcraft. Like you just you
58:58
travel around the world and there's no
59:01
huge overarching threats. There's a
59:02
bunch of of mid card th- Mhm. There's
59:05
like I'm not saying that it would
59:07
literally be an N'Zoth, but there's your
59:08
N'Zoths and your your you know, fire
59:11
lords and your you know, whoever's going
59:13
whatever's going on at the end of AQ,
59:15
whether it's, you know, good old C'Thun
59:17
or it's, you know, the the the you know,
59:20
Zul'Gurub type things. It There's
59:22
threats. There's problems, but there
59:25
isn't one huge problem that's kind of
59:28
behind everything or causing every I I
59:31
honestly think that's the way I would
59:32
like I would like to see just an
59:33
expansion where it's like this place is
59:35
crazy and there's lots of stuff
59:36
happening but it isn't all the work of
59:38
one thing. It's just everything.
59:40
>> Mhm. But I think that's going to do it
59:42
for today, friends. I do want to thank
59:44
you for joining us on this journey and
59:46
welcoming Matt back from his triumphant
59:48
return. Uh Blizzard Watch Blizzard Watch
59:51
is made possible due to your generous
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59:53
patreon.com/blizzardwatch.
59:56
Your continued support means that this
59:57
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59:59
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Anna and Liz love finding the most
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>> [laughter]
1:01:07
>> And if you are interested in reading any
1:01:10
of the books,
1:01:11
we do actually have a guide on the
1:01:13
website that I highly recommend you take
1:01:15
a look at.
1:01:16
blizzardwatch.com/warcraft-books.
1:01:20
Uh it tells you what order to read them
1:01:23
in, what major story lines are contained
1:01:24
in what books. So, if you're looking for
1:01:26
some context of some of the questions
1:01:27
we've answered or some of the weirder
1:01:30
stuff that we talk about, that's a good
1:01:32
place to start try to find where those
1:01:33
story lines are from. But with that,
1:01:36
friends, we will see you next week.