Up next in 10
With the rigidity of the structure of the Kirin Tor and the Jedi Order, and their propensity for keeping secrets about power -- and sometimes that power for themselves -- there are a ton of parallels between these two organizations. Our hosts Matt and Joe dive deep into both the World of Warcraft universe and the Star Wars universe in order to compare and contrast the master light side wielders of the force and the best mages in Azeroth.
While this doesn't imply that, for instance, Rhonin is a Jedi, it doesn't not imply it, either.
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0:00
[Music]
0:11
Hello and welcome to lore watch on table free form discussion about lore in your favorite media. I'm your host, Joe Pres,
0:17
one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch, and I have got my uh
0:24
stupendous, marvelous, I can't think of any other way to really introduce uh the
0:30
Matt Rossy that would really coincide with what our topic is going to be today that doesn't sound weird. So, hi Matt.
0:36
I'm gonna say I'm the Wookie with a life debt to you. You're Han Solo. I'm Chewbacca. You
0:41
know, that kind of thing. We can go with that. Uh, and that should give you a little bit of an idea, but
0:46
maybe not for why you think where we're going to be going in this episode. Uh, but if you have topics or questions you
0:52
want us to to cover, be sure to send those in. You can send them in the podcast at blizzardwatch.com. Specify the show that is for in the subject line
0:59
as well as any special pronunciation of your name. You can also hit us on Discord. We have the Q and podcast questions channel, which is open to
1:05
everybody. And we also have the patron Q and podcast questions channel set aside for our lovely patrons who help us keep
1:12
the lights on. So this is going to be a uh a two-parter and we're going to start with the first one. Uh but both come
1:19
from our friend Verdigree who has sent us some thoughtprovoking items. First uh
1:26
this was a possible topic for watch surprise we're doing it. Uh the parallels between the Kieran and the
1:31
Jedi Order and perhaps generally Star Wars and Warcraft. Uh
1:39
so Verdigree plays a forsaken mage on Doaron server. Irony uh when they played through the fall of Doaron despite
1:45
everything they'd been through there including their character being named arch mage by or arch mage by Kaggar its
1:51
loss didn't hit them as hard as as they'd expect. Doon the city never felt that homey. Uh then in the fate of
1:58
Kieran Tour Quest, it they didn't really get why they came to the decision not to rebuild the city and ultimately was kind
2:05
of disengaged until several months ago. They started listening to a more civilized age, a Star Wars podcast and
2:12
watching the Clone Wars. And as the critiques of the Jedi kept piling on, eventually it hit me. The structure and
2:19
decline of the Jedi order felt incredibly familiar. Everything clicked. I could suddenly see so many parallels
2:25
as you see the Jedi become more militaristic. It suddenly struck me how arrogant it was to treat your own city
2:32
full of lots of people who didn't sign up to be soldiers as a battleship and sail it directly into the heart of
2:38
danger over and over despite it not being one. They used it like Arthus used
2:44
Max Ramis, but it was never a fortress. The Kyantor are very narrow-minded on
2:50
what is acceptable. And once you step outside their limited rules, you can get banished like the Jedi forbidding
2:56
knowledge and research into the dark side because a lot of Jedi to fall far
3:01
because they have no clue what they're doing and too afraid of the consequences to ask for help. We had all kinds of
3:07
people striking on their own. Keelazad, Eguin, Medivh, Anakin, Count Dooku to
3:12
dire consequences. Though Doan accepted all the classes, all the classes presence out of necessity. did they ever
3:19
truly respect them or their knowledge? So, this is interesting and it's something that I thought was I like it.
3:26
I like the the comparison because I do think it is pretty apt. Um, and it is interesting that the characterization of
3:34
Doaron up until the current content really has been
3:40
more militaristic than I think that that order has ever really been um or was
3:46
ever intended to be. And so you get this this not necessarily a self-discovery
3:52
but a a very introspective look from Khadgar and the others of what does
3:58
dollar actually mean? What is it supposed to be? What is the Kieran tour supposed to be? And Matt and I had
4:04
talked about that previously. Um, but it's a it's a fascinating question that
4:11
is a good way to correct what dollar and what the kintor had become, which as you
4:16
pointed out, verdigree, way too militaristic, way too willing to throw
4:21
themselves into uh every danger. And it was also sort of a pendulum reaction
4:28
from them not being involved in the first place when things went sideways. So, I I'll turn it over to Matt and he
4:33
can kind of go where he wants with this one, but I just think it's an interesting and very apt comparison with
4:39
the Jedi Order who followed much the same trajectory. Yeah, I think there's certainly a lot of
4:45
places where you could make an argument about them being similar. Um, to a degree that is just what happens when
4:51
somebody creates a order that, you know, considers themselves the gatekeepers of
4:57
certain knowledge. that just happens in, you know, you see that in the uh the Dragon Reborn stuff of the Wheel of
5:03
Time. Uh you see that in, you know, in what we just talked about,
5:09
you know, Star Wars. You see that in the original Lensman books. You see it all over the place. It it is a pretty common
5:15
trope. Uh that being said, one of the things that comes to mind to me is the fact that the foundation of the Kieran tour
5:24
was originally to clean up the mess that teaching magic to a race that was as
5:31
short-lived and widespread as humanity caused. Were they originally like the Were they
5:38
originally like the the the Senate of Dooron, the major Senate? Something like that? Uh no. No. the original Kieran tour the
5:45
the very first I mean they took on that role absolutely they did um in a way
5:51
dragon age is a good one to look at here in terms of of the Karan tour because it's very similar in that the original
5:57
magesters of Tinter were mages because almost everybody in Tinter was a mage
6:03
they weren't it wasn't intended to be mages rule it's just that the rulership
6:08
were also mages and then after a while it got it got you know conflated did. Originally, the Kieran Tour uh was an
6:16
order of humans and elves and anybody else that could do magic. There were gnomes in there. And the reason that
6:24
they were created was Dallin was a human kingdom. Yeah. One of the seven was not Yeah. One of the seven. It
6:30
wasn't originally ruled by the Kieran at all. Um it was ruled by the people of Deran. They they had their own rule.
6:36
There was like even a royal family. Um, but we don't know much about them because very quickly the problem with
6:42
having mages, because keep in mind, Ardor came to power and the first thing he did when the elves demanded his help
6:48
was say, you're going to help me train a 100 mages. You're going to give a 100 human beings
6:54
magical powers. The elves agreed to this because they thought, well, it takes forever to learn how to be a magician.
7:00
You know, tapping magical power, the arcane takes forever. They who these shortliveders barely going to boom,
7:05
they're blowing stuff up. How did they do that that fast? It took out because
7:10
humans being short-lived take shortcuts. They they do things that the elves
7:16
wouldn't do because the elves a live longer and b they have that memory of
7:21
that time all those demons came and almost killed them all. Keep in mind that the the elf that Arator dealt with,
7:29
and this was like 3,000 years ago, was Anastion,
7:35
Sunstrider, the the, you know, child of Dath Remar,
7:40
who came from Calumdor after the Sundering. Like, they knew about demon
7:47
summoning. They knew about mages summoning the the Burning Legion or just attracting their attention. They didn't
7:52
want to do that. But the humans did not care and thus started all sorts of demons started showing up. This led to
7:59
the formation of the Kirin. The Kintor originally were just supposed to be cops.
8:05
They were magic cops, guardians. Sound familiar? Yeah. The Jedi, it's very
8:10
similar. But while the Jedi become militarized, initially the Kirin became
8:16
governmentalized. They provided rule in Dererin because how was anyone going to tell them not
8:23
to, you know, they're first off, they were all very powerful mages. Secondly, they
8:29
had to have broad sweeping powers in order to stop demons and people who would summon demons. Uh and third, once
8:36
you accumulate that much magical power in one organization that is seated in
8:42
one city, that city ceases to be a city and becomes their private thieft. And so
8:50
over the course of things going, they continued to do this and it occurred to
8:55
them, well, heck, we can't really stop these demons by ourselves. we're going
9:01
to invest a chunk of our power in one person. That's where the, you know, the the
9:07
guardian was originally created. And we we've got like a chain of them leading down until we finally hit Medivh, who's
9:13
the last one. Um that decision to do that meant that the
9:18
Kieran Tour turned all of their attention to to ruling Doerin as a
9:24
platform for the Guardian. Like the Guardian, the first Guardian to
9:30
ever have their own tower in the middle of nowhere was Medivh. Like up until uh Medivh's mom, Eguin,
9:38
all the Guardians, like you know, Alathon, they had they you know, they they lived in Derin. They you actually
9:44
become the arch mage. You get his home base. The original guardians home base was right there in Delerin. And that's
9:51
what Dererin was for centuries when it got destroyed by the burning legion in
9:57
uh I want to say the third war. Yeah, the third war. Um that's when they go
10:03
militaristic. And and what does that remind us of? Um the Jedi turn towards
10:09
militarism because of the Clone Wars. In both cases, you've got an order that
10:14
really isn't suited to the role of soldiers. These are cops. The Jedi were cops. They
10:21
were preservers of order. They were not, you know, troops. The the the Republic
10:27
had an army. You know, it didn't it didn't need Jedi or at least for a long time it didn't
10:34
seem to need Jedi to defend itself. There were notable exceptions
10:40
um like that time that the Sith came and blew up Terrace and you know that's the result of you know this the Star Wars
10:46
games and so forth. But overall, the Jedi never served as an army until the
10:53
Clone Wars. And in fact, the entire Clone Wars was just so Palpatine could get the Jedi put into a role as soldiers
11:01
because he knew they weren't suited to it. They weren't intended to be soldiers in
11:08
the same way that Kyanto was never intended to rule Derin. And the fact that they turned into
11:13
Doerin's rulers was the first step on their path to being out of what they
11:18
should be doing. They're supposed to be figuring out how to protect Azeroth from runaway magic.
11:25
And sometimes they try to do that like in in um not Wrath, Legion. And Legion, that's
11:33
what they're doing. They take they take, you know, Cultteras. They take dollarin. Sorry, Cultteras.
11:39
They didn't take Cultteras anymore. They they take dollar into um Northrange because it's the only place they can put
11:46
it to keep it floating with the lay lines getting destroyed like they are.
11:51
They need to, you know, confront the uh the blue dragon flight. But at the same time, you're absolutely right that the
11:57
city is full of people who are just people. And it sometimes it's hard for us to get
12:02
that because by necessity, the city is only a couple of blocks wide.
12:08
when we go to it in game, it's only a couple blocks wild wide. But the real dollar in the game's lore is it's a
12:16
city. It's it's a full city. Like not as big as Stormwind, but a city like a big city.
12:21
Yeah, it's up there. I mean, it's certainly it's not as big as Stormwind, but it's big. And
12:28
yeah, so he's absolutely right about that. And to a degree that's that's one of the things that's a real sign of of
12:34
Dererin's degradation is that when it gets destroyed it gets destroyed because of its arrogance.
12:41
Um ultimately the fact that that book was there in dollarin is because they they were like only we could possibly
12:47
understand this. None of you should be allowed to look at this book. um the one that you know the the uh orcs used to
12:57
you know summon demons and create death knights. Uh when they came and stole
13:04
that book from dollarin in the second war that basically opened the place up everyone knew that that's where the the
13:09
research on it was. That's why one of the reasons that you know Keluzad knew that it was there. A lot of Keluzad's
13:16
turn to Lichtum was him discovering those secrets and the rest
13:22
of the Kieran like no you can't study this you must you know it's evil and you can't look at it and obviously they're
13:29
they have a massive anti-warlock bias I mean clearly they always have and all
13:34
these things combine into the Kyantor always believing that they are right
13:41
and I think that is a really it's a good paralle parallel with the Jedi order.
13:46
The difference being, of course, that the the Kyantor doesn't have a singular enemy like Palpatine. They have so many
13:52
different enemies that they can't who can keep track of all them. They can't even keep track of whether or not a
13:57
Kieran arch mage is dead or not. Yeah. I mean, that was that's part of the whole thing that started uh uh the
14:04
war within. Like, but getting to some of the the the roots of the question, like, do they consider what they're doing when
14:09
they they jump their city into these dangerous situations? No, I don't think
14:14
they do. They don't. I think I think Matt hit the nail on the head with the hubris portion, right? Yeah. They they totally if it's a
14:21
magical problem, is not they don't think ofin as dollarin. They think ofin as the carour.
14:28
Yeah. The city is just there for them to have a thing to be in charge of. And the fact
14:35
that it's an actual city with people living in it. I mean, they they almost got them all killed at the end of the in
14:42
during the third war. Then they hid the place in a bubble for like a decade. Then they start dragging them off to
14:47
every other place in the world. It's like why is your first response when something bad is happening to move
14:54
Derin? Like just leave Derin where it is like uh you know they wanted to bring it to
15:00
like you know in game. They didn't. There wasn't ever mentioned in lore, but the designers wanted to bring dollar
15:06
into Orgrammar. Yeah. You know, during the siege of Orgramar and I'm like, you know, I I have a head
15:12
cannon just like, you know, they were like, let's bring the city of dollar and like somebody in the city is like, no, look, no, we don't have any reason to
15:19
bring the city there. It's not like you can do anything with the city over that you couldn't just do. So, just go do it.
15:25
You don't have to bring us there. I got kids here, you know? It just it's like crazy. He's completely right. When you
15:33
when I read that line from him, I was like, he's totally got a point, man. If I lived in Deran, I would be like, "Don't rebuild it. I'm not coming back."
15:40
Nope. You got me back twice now. E, no, I'm going to go I'm moving to to, you know, I'm moving to Gilaeas. They seem
15:46
like they got their stuff in order. Didn't Gilas just get destroyed by the Horde. I said I'm moving to Gila.
15:51
It's back now. It's good. Yeah. Well, at least, you know, Gilaeas stayed where it was. um like like
15:58
and you you rais a good point and you rais an interesting point that I think is is also a series of parallel cuz one of the one of the questions that often
16:04
gets asked in like Star Wars lore is well you know especially with like the
16:10
newer trilogies and and the world beyond is why wasn't the Jedi order reestablished and the answer was it kind
16:16
of was but not in the way that it was before. It was much more decentralized. It was much more specialized. It was
16:22
much more about going back to the roots of what they were as opposed to, you
16:28
know, one massive city where, you know, everybody went and trained and in the in
16:34
the main temple, it became smaller temples. Yeah. It's easier easy to forget that
16:39
the Jedi temple, as we see it in the original the prequel trilogy, and as we see it in other things, the Jedi Temple
16:45
is like the size of Manhattan Island. Yeah. It's enormous. It's It's a city in and of itself. Yeah.
16:52
The fact that it doesn't like people act like it's a it's a building in a city is that the planet is on is completely
16:57
covered by a city. Like there's one city on Coruscant. It is it is gigantic. Um
17:04
that's the only reason you think of the Jedi Temple as a structure and not a temple and not a city. Uh they they
17:11
lived in an enclave where from the time that they were Jedi, the time that someone said, "Oh, this kid's got the
17:16
force." up until death in some cases they lived in in complete isolation from
17:23
the world around them except for when they had to go on a mission. Um the ones that lived in that city
17:28
never went anywhere. And the ones that wandered wandered from place to place and never really settled down, never
17:33
stopped. And it's not like you couldn't leave. Like Dooku left and he didn't leave like
17:41
he didn't leave in disgrace. He just said, "I'm done. I can't. You guys are crazy." and left. You could leave.
17:48
Technically speaking, he was supposed to never use the force again. But very clearly, how do you how do you you know,
17:54
how do you do that? Also, how do you tell the you know, I was going to say also like that the
17:59
Ahsoka is another prime example of somebody who before like while things were going bad, but like she was already
18:04
on the outs, she was already ready to leave. Yeah. Yeah. And she and for the same reason, she's like, "We we've lost our
18:10
way." Oddly enough, her and Dooku were very similar in that way. They were both like, "We've lost our way. This is we're
18:16
doing things that don't make sense." Um I know not a lot of people liked um the
18:21
the uh acolyte. Mhm. But I liked the point it was making
18:27
the great Jedi is that the Jedi order were like they weren't calling them corrupt isn't
18:32
accurate because they weren't corrupt. It's not like anyone was paying them. It's not like they were doing things. I
18:37
think they had just fossilized like
18:42
becomes so sedimentary because they haven't nothing really changed or forced them to change. Yeah, I could see that
18:49
cuz from the time that they finally quote unquote won the or the war of darkness against the Sith, remember that
18:54
that one time that the Jedi and the Sith faced each other across, you know, the the galaxy and each had hundreds if not
19:01
thousands of adherence. Yeah. And that only ended when the Sith essentially destroyed themselves trying
19:07
to destroy the Jedi at the end of the war of light and darkness when you get the rule of two and the Sith become reclusive for the next thousand or so
19:15
years. None of the Jedi that you meet in the original trilogy, not in the
19:20
original trilogy, the uh the sequel trilogy, none of those people ever saw a Sith before.
19:26
Like the first Yeah. the the Yoda would have never seen one because Yoda was born about 150
19:35
years after the War of Light and Darkness. So, he would never have actually seen or experienced the Sith.
19:41
He wouldn't know how to deal with that level of dedicated force, you know, dark
19:46
side of the Force adherence. It was something he did not have experience with. None of them did. And
19:53
he even says as things tip into out of the balance, we can't see or perceive as
20:00
much. The Jedi's senses were getting dulled by the the disorder in the force.
20:06
It's very similar to the way that Kier and Tor as the wars come, as the Horde
20:12
invades, they're less and less effective because the last time they were that,
20:18
you know, they'd already had to deal with like an invasion of demons that was so bad that the Guardian decided, I
20:26
can't trust you people anymore. You're not you're not you're not worth
20:31
partnering with. You're not trustworthy. I have to fight like Sargeras and I have
20:37
to do it with you holding me back. So, no, I don't trust you. I'm not letting you have this power back. I'm not
20:43
letting you decide who gets it next cuz you can't be trusted. I'm going to do it myself. And obviously, part of that was
20:48
Sargeras influencing her. But nevertheless, it's a similar thing. It's the organization isn't evil. It doesn't
20:55
want to serve the, you know, the the fell black, you know, the Bernie legion. It's just more abundant. it they cannot
21:03
see past their arrogance. Yeah. And I think you're you're raising
21:08
an interesting point because the there's one thing and not to skip topics a little bit, but this I feel is
21:14
tangentially related. One of the things that I always liked from the the Star Wars side of things was the depiction of
21:20
gay Jedi. And gray Jedi has it's it's something that it means two things, right? It's Jedi
21:28
that have essentially walked away from the Jedi. High Council. They don't want to be under the structure of the Jedi
21:35
High Council because they feel that like Matt has pointed out, it's fossilized. It's not it's too rigid or it's too
21:43
whatever. And it doesn't allow for things like again the whole having a family thing like that that was a a
21:50
major like thing for some folks. Uh, it also means that these are people that or
21:55
was a term used to describe people that studied the dark side but didn't fall to it. Uh, or didn't fully succumb to the
22:02
the seductive power of it. And in a lot of ways, this kind of looks like and and
22:08
I'm going to throw this out there, what may be the origin of warlocks and wow at some point, right? You have you have
22:14
these incredible magic users that start plumbing the depths of essentially in this case demonic knowledge uh or not
22:21
necessarily demon extraplaner knowledge we'll call it because we now know that demons aren't necessarily demons they're
22:27
extraplaner beings essentially uh from various worlds and and realities. Um,
22:33
but we don't know who the first warlock is, right? It could have been somebody who walked away from the rigid structure of
22:39
the Kieran tour and said, "I don't want to do this." And we know, like you said, Kelazad, Keelazad walked away because he
22:45
wanted to plum the depths. Now, he did ultimately succumb to the dark magic, but not in the way that people think.
22:52
Like, he wasn't he was amoral. Um, like he didn't care what he had to do to get
22:58
where he wanted. He wanted the power, but he wasn't at the time mustache
23:03
twirling world domination. That came later. Like that that came after being
23:08
forced to serve the Lich King, right? So like even he started out as sort of in
23:14
that gray area where it's like I want to study these things. I want to Yeah, Kiluson's a really good example of
23:19
that. Absolutely. So like it it's a fascinating way to look back at the Kieran tour and see exactly what the
23:26
parallels with the Jedi Council really are. And there is a lot of similarities.
23:32
It's a lot of things that due to stagnation, due to hubris, due to lack
23:37
of outside thinking, and I'll be honest, lack of creativity, they couldn't see
23:43
they couldn't see their nose for their face. Right. Yeah. Like one of my favorite examples of a great Jedi um is Jolie Bindo.
23:51
Yes. From Knights of the Old Republic. Yeah. And Jolie's Jolie's whole thing is that he fell in love.
23:57
Yeah. And the Jedi Council has been teaching at this point. Um I think Knights of the
24:02
Old Republic is like 6,000 years before the Battle of Yavan. Um and the Jedi
24:08
Council is is like, you know, strong emotion is bad. You you can't let yourself feel strong emotion. You have
24:14
to be balanced. you have to always be balanced between all these things. And Jolie's like, "No, love will save you,
24:21
not damn you." Yes, love can lead to pain and pain can lead to the dark side.
24:27
But keep we keep making this mistake of thinking that the dark side of the force
24:32
isn't part of the force. It is. It's the force.
24:38
Almost like a light and dark cycle. Yeah. You want to balance the force, you have to balance it in yourself,
24:45
not in the universe. Loving people, no, that's not wrong. Anger, no, anger isn't
24:52
wrong. What's wrong is you. What you do with it
24:58
is what's wrong. The suffering caused by the dark side is the suffering of people who do not know when to stop. Mhm.
25:05
And one of my I mean again another show that people didn't like as much but the Obi-Wan show is a really good example of
25:11
this because Obi-Wan can't beat Vader. Also Obi-Wan is a really good example as
25:17
is Qui-Gon as far as I'm concerned of great Jedi. By the end, yeah, by the end Obi-Wan's the great Jedi. Absolutely. But during
25:24
the entire episode, his fear and his pain over what happened means he can't
25:30
successfully fight Darth Vader. for like multiple episodes. He's running from him. Finally, he's like, "No, put me
25:36
down on that planet. Put me down right there on that ball of rock and get out of here. He won't follow you. You know,
25:44
he'll only if he knows I'm there, he will not break off and chase you. So,
25:50
get this girl home. I'm going to stay and fight." And you and you watch them
25:56
fight. And for whatever you say about the show, that's that last fight's beautiful. Oh, yeah. Um, and one of the things
26:02
that's great about it is the Darth Vader is slapping him around for most of it. Like he's trying his best and he
26:08
actually is he's he's conquered his fears in a lot of ways and he is using the Force effectively again, but he
26:15
can't, you know, Vader is like an engine of destruction. He's lost some of his ability because, you know, he got
26:21
injured so badly, but his rage is so strong just can't Obi-Wan just can't
26:27
stop him and he gets buried alive. But when he gets buried alive, this is the moment where it's like, you could have
26:33
imagined Jolie Bindo showing up to tell him, "No, Stop trying not to feel cuz that's not
26:41
going to help you. You need to feel that little girl and that little boy that
26:47
they owe. You owe them for everything they lost, for the mother that they
26:52
lost, for the father that they lost. You owe them. and you have to get up.
26:59
Mhm. And that's when he shows then he can use the force to a level that even if Vader can't stop because Vader can only draw
27:06
in rage. If if Vader looked into his heart and saw how much he still loves his son, his
27:12
daughter, how much he he really does want to be good. He wants to be a hero and he's just he's twisted up in his own
27:19
rage. If he could put that aside, he'd be strong enough to kill Palpatine in a second. It's the the the tragic the
27:27
tragedy of Darth Vader is that he can never let go of his hate. And by letting
27:33
go of his hate, he could beat Palpatine in a second. But he can't. He can't
27:39
until somebody comes along and makes him. And that's that's his tragedy. Obi-Wan becomes that's the moment where
27:46
he becomes a great Jedi fully is the moment he embraces that loving these children, loving
27:53
people, wanting to protect them. It's not a sin. It's not a curse. It's not
27:59
going to destroy you. It'll save you. And the Kieran, their whole thing with
28:04
the Guardians is very similar in that they never learned that it wasn't about just giving one guy all the magic power
28:12
you can. It was about having everybody together. Like they were if they had actually
28:20
ruledin with concern for Derin, if they had stayed neutral in political conflicts
28:26
and and always brought everyone together to fight like demons and monsters as
28:32
they invade, then they would have been fulfilling their function.
28:39
But they didn't. And that's why they fell. And I think to a certain degree it is good that they're not just going to rebuild Derin again. I think they should
28:45
actually rebuild Derin. They should go back to where it was and build a city there and let people live there and they
28:51
don't go there anymore. Yeah. But I think I think that's one of those things where uh probably not going to happen because the reputation at this
28:58
point going back to the whole city wants to live in the FL, you know, the flying blowup city. No thanks.
29:03
Yeah. The the city not being a fortress I think is a really interesting thing because they tried, right? They tried to
29:10
reinforce it with magical wards and and multiple multiple times they've done
29:15
this. Even in the the original destruction of Doeron, it was wards that
29:21
mages were were maintaining that were trying to keep out the invasion, the invading force and
29:27
everything else. Uh, and all it took was a, you know, some of them just being taken out
29:33
essentially to weaken the wards enough to keep putting pressure on it. You'll notice who does this, too.
29:40
soldiers. Yes. I mean, they're undead soldiers, but they're still soldiers. But they're soldiers because
29:46
they never once stopped and asked anybody with any military experience,
29:51
how would you defend this city? Well, I mean, case in point, there are no walls.
29:57
Nope. It's it's supposed to be the capital of one of the seven human kingdoms, and it
30:03
has no walls. It it is literally if you look at the the images of the uh the the
30:11
essentially pre-destruction dollar uh I think watch the cinematic where he destroys it
30:16
even the destruction of dollar cinematic it looks like a unwalled version of minister like it it just it has
30:24
aqueducts it has roads it has plenty of roads and circling it has layers but nothing to keep it out and people like
30:31
oh well there's rivers between it that's not a defense Even people drop you drop a board across that and
30:37
you know it's or or boats or the fact that you live in a magical land where things can fly like it there was no
30:46
practical defense. Everything was all in on that magic and in a lot of ways that
30:52
parallels with the Jedi Temple as well. The Jedi Temple kind of is skewed uh
30:58
physical defenses in in place of we have Jedi, we're fine. And I think that's
31:04
kind of interesting because like there's this whole thing where like Jedi don't use blasters. It's not civilized.
31:09
And then you have Jedi who are like whatever, it's a gun. I'm going to fight. I don't care. Whatever weapon is
31:15
a good weapon. Um they skewed all of that. They didn't have defense anything
31:20
really. They had maybe force fields here and there, but by and large they never
31:26
viewed their temple as a position that needed to be defended because that hubris of well the Jedi will dare attack
31:33
the Jedi. And it's the same thing with Doeron when you have the ark mage who lives there,
31:39
the city of the guardian essentially. Uh cuz even after the guardian went and moved to its tower, after Egguin took
31:46
our ball and went home, they still have that mentality. They still treating the city like that. Like who would dare who
31:52
would dare breach our walls when we when we're the city of the Guardian? Guardian don't live there no more. Uh, not only
31:59
that, but like again a dude with a rock versus you with a lightning bolt.
32:04
Sometimes that dude with a rock is gonna get real lucky, right? Yeah. Or, you know, just for the fact that he knows how to kill people.
32:10
Yeah. That literally literally soldiers train for this stuff. You know, you you know how to do big
32:16
magical things which are very nice and very important. But you we can't keep treating mages like siege weapons.
32:23
Yeah. Mages are people. Yeah. You know, it's like you can bring them to battle, but then what happens?
32:30
It took this guy like his entire life, all 50 years of it to get this good at magic. And now a guy with a stick got
32:37
lucky and killed him after he set some stuff on fire, which I think is really interesting. Um because there's a there's a kind of a
32:46
random aside. I've been thinking about this a lot in terms of like especially because of the more recent cinematic
32:51
when you start looking at what would that have been if the mages had not had that hubris and had we like the old
32:58
republic style where you had different classifications of Jedi where you had guardians and knights and paladins.
33:06
Yeah. Consulars. Yeah. Consulars and and uh and um guardians and I forget what
33:12
the third one was. There's like an actual militant one. Yeah. No, they literally had They're sentinels. But Sentinels Sentinels were
33:18
literally the equivalent of a paladin, right? Like they were they were mil they were milit militaristically trained,
33:23
trained in combat, trained in practical combat. They armor like they actually had armor. They wore they actually wore heavy armor. They
33:30
like they were they were essentially just like you would have paladins who can wield the light. They're warriors that could wield the light.
33:37
You could have had that with mages. And like I'm surprised that we didn't and that they never considered it. But
33:44
again, it goes to that hubris, but like even the elves, even elves realized that
33:50
this is a problem. And so, spell breakers exist. They are militaristic
33:56
elves, blood blood elven warriors trained to destroy spellcasters by
34:02
disrupting and controlling and contorting the magical energies of their opponents. They are mages trained in
34:08
warfare, right? Absolutely. The spell breakers are great for that. They're they're not just useful against people doing magic.
34:15
They're, you know, great anti-demon fighters. They're great against undead. They're great against anything that's
34:21
dependent upon mystical abilities because they can deny them that. Um, and
34:27
they do it in a way that doesn't endanger them as much because they are trained fighters.
34:33
Yes, they have big shields. They can do form, you know, they have formations that they
34:38
take. They understand how to deal with magic. And
34:44
there's the problem with like the idea of the city is ruled by guys who literally spend all of their time
34:50
studying one field. They ponder their orbs, man. Let's be honest. Yeah. Like it and it is the same problem
34:57
with the Jedi. Like one of the greatest things to my mind with in the original tril not again I keep saying the
35:02
original trilogy but I mean the sequel trilogy is when they show a Jedi up against say a Mandalorian bounty hunter.
35:09
Mhm. And you see oh oh the Jedi is very skilled. Yes. Absolutely. But they're
35:15
not invincible. No. You can they can be beaten. Well the whole the whole origin of the
35:21
dark saber and why it was sat on Mandalore, right? Yeah. Mandalorian. And that goes back,
35:26
what I loved about that is that they they found a way to to incorporate into so many sources. The idea that the
35:32
Mandalorian went from an actual race to a creed because the Jedi fought them
35:39
about six and a half 6,500 years ago. And that's the whole deal with Revan and
35:45
all that stuff. But the fact that you get these these things developing where
35:51
they're like people other than the Jedi understand the force.
35:57
Mhm. People other than the Jedi have actually come up with counter measures. And part
36:02
of the problem for the Jedi is that they don't stop and learn them. Yeah. Like you should know how to do this too
36:10
because the Sith are just using Jedi magic at the heart of it. They're using
36:15
Jedi power. They're just using it differently, but they're still doing it. And the interesting thing,
36:20
you knew how to do this stuff. You could beat them. And the interesting thing is like in the lore of Star Wars, it and it's in the
36:27
novels that are largely been relegated to legend status. But you had uh uh why
36:34
can't I think of his name now? Samuel Jackson's character. Oh, Mace Window. Vapad. You're going to talk about Vapad?
36:40
Yeah. Yeah. Mace Window was literally the only one who was like, "No, practical application, right? Like he
36:46
sat and studied uh not just different forms of lightsaber warfare, but warfare." Like when the Clone War broke
36:53
out, he knew what was going on. He knew what to how to deal with a bunch of this stuff, but nobody listened to him,
36:59
right? Like, and it was it was a stark contrast uh to that philosophy. And
37:05
again, where I would push Mace Window maybe slowly more towards that neutral gray side than really the doctrine of,
37:13
you know, pure Jedi Council. But like he had the he had the intention at the heart, but go ahead. I think you're right about Mace being
37:20
more grayside in practice. Mace's problem was his tremendous respect for Yoda. Yes.
37:25
And I'm going to just do this now. Yoda is the reason everything fell apart.
37:32
Yoda was too, it's not that he's too old, although he was very old. Yoda had
37:38
he'd been through Yeah, absolutely. Too rigid is absolutely a good way to put it. Yoda had lived long enough that he
37:43
had been around for like 8 900 years when when we get to the original series
37:49
when the original in the Clone Wars, he's a little younger, but he's he's been around so long and he never had to
37:56
face anything like a Sith in that whole time.
38:02
So his approach to the force, while a perfectly good one, there's nothing
38:07
wrong with his approach to the force, it just doesn't apply to everybody. And it's the reason you look at the big
38:14
things we lose because of Yoda. Um, Count Dooku leaves the order.
38:21
And that's a big deal because Count Dooku was amazing in his in his prime. Mhm. like uh he just he he was around
38:29
the galaxy doing good things, stopping people. He was Quon Jyn's mentor. Yeah, he was just short of being
38:34
declared master, right? Yeah. He Well, he wasn't he was a Jedi council.
38:39
The the council status. Yeah. He he almost got on the council. Uh and the only reason he didn't was
38:45
because he started realizing that stuff is going wrong. We're not doing the right things. Uh and this is during the
38:53
whole acolyte era. Um him and Mace Wu had arguments about this because Wu was
38:58
like, "Look, you have to trust Master Yoda's wisdom." And he'd be like, "No, we don't. No one person needs to be
39:04
trusted over the force. It's the force we should be trusting." And that's
39:10
that's something Qui-Gon internalized. But Qui-Gon didn't have the anger the way that Dooku did. He wasn't mad at
39:17
them. And that's because he understood he had compassion for them
39:23
and qui that's why Qui-Gon would have if Qui-Gon had lived we would not have had we the Jedi order would have reformed it
39:29
wouldn't have fallen. Yeah. I also think that I also think that Doku could have been redeemed and the only reason I say that absolutely
39:35
because if you look at it he he did not fully succumb to the dark side. No he doesn't. when he's fighting them
39:41
in in um you know Return of Revenge of the Sith, when he's fighting Anakin and and Obi-Wan, he is going out of his
39:49
effing way not to kill them. Yeah, cuz he could have. Yeah. He But he like he knows this guy
39:55
is, you know, Palpatine is in fact um Cidius. He knows this and he still
40:03
thinks I can get Cidius if I just get a couple of people to back me on this.
40:10
Mhm. You watch it throughout the entirety of Clone Wars. He with Ventress, with uh
40:16
General um Grievous, he's trying to build somebody that can help him take
40:22
Cidius out cuz he knows Cidius is too powerful to go up against one-on-one.
40:27
Uh very few people can handle that. Yoda couldn't do it. And Yoda, for all that,
40:33
you know, Dooku disagree with him, he recognized that Yoda was very powerful. Um, I'm not going to talk about
40:39
mediclorans. Uh, but but we get into this whole thing where you see the moment where he hears him going, "Do
40:46
it." And he's like, "Oh, I'm going to die. This he set me up." And Anakin,
40:52
when Anakin kills Dooku, he starts he's he starts the the final fall of the
40:59
character. Like, he's been he's been really damaged by the war. And you see that especially if you watch the Clone
41:06
Wars, Anakin has been very damaged by the war. Anakin was actually the closest
41:11
to Duke, not to Dooku, closest to Mace Wu of anybody other than Mace Wu where
41:17
he was very similar in that he studied a lot of combat styles. He studied war. Um
41:22
he gets appointed general because like a bunch of them do. Uh that's not, you know, it's not unusual to him, but he
41:29
was the one that the troops loved fighting for the most because he understood how to their lives.
41:34
Yeah. He knew these are my soldiers, they come first. And he So he had to
41:40
make decisions that are technically kind of dark side. Yeah. Now, now all this to say to tie this back in, this is talking about the
41:47
rigidity, right? Like, and this is the same. Yes, absolutely. Yoda being so rigid, Yoda not being able to be flexible. The
41:53
Karan Tour are all over that. Yeah. like the council the council of six um they're very much this right
41:59
they're very much they're gatekeeping they're very much guarding they're very much trying to keep everybody on this uh
42:05
the the very path Antonitis is a perfect example not that he's not a good m not a good wizard
42:11
not that he wasn't you know just look at his interactions with Jana
42:16
right like he's constantly telling her no slow down don't do that it's like the guy's just no no no no and what ends up
42:23
happening he doesn't listen to Medivh. He doesn't even recognize Medivh. And I'm sorry, Antonitis, you're the head of
42:29
the Council of Six. When Medivh shows up, you should know who he is. Yeah, he's not trying to hide it. Yeah,
42:37
sure. He showed up as a bird, but I mean it it's all of this is is very
42:44
much parallels of what a rigid rule system, a rigid structure can do. And
42:51
again, the the Kieran tour didn't and and I'm not saying all of them did because I'm sure there were ones that
42:57
understood that the city was was made of the people that live there. But again, when you're so reliant on
43:04
that magic as a tool, everything becomes a magic problem. And this idea of and
43:11
and like looking at in game distances are a lot closer than they are in the world as as the the fantasy and the as
43:18
the story unfolds, right? going to Crystal Song Forest and teleporting dollar on there after rebuilding it.
43:24
Um, that's one thing and it's not necessarily as close as you would expect
43:30
to uh, you know, the Ice Crown Citadel as it actually appears in game, but it's
43:35
still too close. You're still you're still going into unknown territory. you're going to a
43:41
place that has not been explored uh by essentially the Alliance in, you know,
43:47
at least a generation at this point because Arthus has, you know, fallen, gone there, become the
43:52
Lich King, and has been sitting there doing his thing. Um, you don't know what you're getting into.
43:58
You don't know what the presence is there. And it's a really monumentally dumb idea. It's amazing that a frostworm army
44:07
didn't just siege Doaron. I am still surprised that did not happen. Uh or
44:12
I think the only reason it didn't happen was because Arthus was letting them fight the Blue Dragons.
44:18
Yeah, maybe. And keep in mind that the Blue Dragons did attack the place. They did. They absolutely did. You know, so I think it was very much a
44:26
case of of Arthus just letting the blue dragon flight go. He let them attack uh the dragon, you know, dragon flight
44:33
temple. He he he didn't during the time that that uh Malagos was losing his his
44:39
marbles again. Arthus, you you'll notice Arthus does nothing to interfere with
44:44
him because he didn't have to. No. Why? It's good for him if Ar if Malagos manages to beat all these
44:51
dragons. Lots of dead dragons for me to make use of. Um if Malagos gets beaten,
44:56
well, he's distracted them while I did did my own thing. But you're totally right in that they
45:02
parked it like look at look at where it was and where you've parked it near. Um
45:08
just a little bit over there is Zeldra. Mhm. Where there's, you know, you've got like trolls who kill their own gods and also
45:15
I was literally just going to say like that the city doesn't have defenses besides magic. You think trolls aren't going to love getting them through the
45:20
sewers? Yeah, absolutely. They're going to fly up, come in through the sewers, and these guys are are fanatics who have
45:27
access to to people who have drained the BLA out of Lowa and are using that power.
45:34
Um, we saw in Zolan how effective that is and they're doing it better. Um, so you got that. Then you if you go
45:41
straight up from there, you hit the Storm Peaks and you've got Lo and all his his massive Reichol army. Are you
45:47
going to fight all those guys? all those, you know, iron dwarves and iron v. You're going to fight them. Okay. Uh
45:53
then you go like up to the, you know, one thing over from there, the actual glacier. Not only does the Lich King
45:59
have a giant his own hat as a building right there, uh they've also got tons of
46:06
dead Narubians, you know, infusing the place. Speaking of that, there's tons of dead Narubians also infusing this place
46:12
where we where, you know, we've parked our city and one zone down from it. And
46:17
then of course the blue dragon flight. And why did we bring the city again?
46:24
Like can you name one reason why you couldn't have just left it in the crater?
46:30
Yeah. See, and that's the thing that I never understood like and again and I think this smacks to the hubris of it
46:36
because they're like this is a battleship and it's like no, it's a city and you're literally capable of
46:43
you're capable of moving armies by teleportation cuz at this time like and this is close enough to Warcraft 3 that
46:49
like in Warcraft 3, Antonitis had mass teleport, right? Uh, and even we get
46:55
access to it as at a as a guild perk in game at some point, which is a call back
47:00
to a mage being able to teleport an army from point A to point B. The arc mages can teleport armies from point A to
47:06
point B. They have this capability. And even then, they can open portals. Just open a portal and walk through it. Walk all
47:12
these people through the portal. Even if you don't want to use mass teleport, just open a portal into places where they had already
47:19
established defensible points. Both the Horde and the Alliance had both
47:24
established beach heads and fortified them. Like you could have magically fortified those
47:31
on top of the physical defenses and brought everything in through there and not teleported a whole dang city there.
47:37
And it it it just again it smacks that hubris. Now to go back to pull it back to current day because I don't want to
47:44
spend too much time here. There is uh again some of that parallel in decision-m with the and we'll talk about
47:50
the decision not to rebuild Daran. Yeah. Absolutely. That's you're completely right. Um actually I wished I had said
47:57
that myself when you said it because the whole deal with Luke trying to reestablish the Jedi order was he wasn't
48:04
trying to reestablish the post the pre-war Jedi order. He was trying to because that fell.
48:10
Yeah. He that didn't work. Um we aren't soldiers. I I don't want us to try and
48:15
be soldiers again. He wanted to go back and relearn all the stuff that they
48:20
lost. Keep in mind with the loss of the Jedi Temple, all the loss of all the holocrons, all that
48:27
knowledge is gone. All that stuff that Jedi order Yeah. Jedi Order accumulated all of it
48:33
and then ignored most of it. I mean, it sounds like the Kieran tour to me. Yeah, exactly. Like they, you know, it's
48:39
it's very similar. I think that that's very much what we're seeing here. First
48:44
off, Khadgar has essentially become the guy who keeps Derin going. Yeah, he's the guardian now at this
48:50
point. Let's be honest. And and he can't do it anymore. You know, he he cannot always be the one
48:59
running the show. He's old. He's hurt. Yeah. He's actually an old man now.
49:04
Yeah. He He's finally lived long enough that he is his apparent age is his
49:10
actual age. He looks like what he is. And like like I said before, they
49:16
weren't keeping track of their own membership to the point where Zalot could pretend to be a dead guy and
49:22
nobody knew. Like I think Yria looked at him kind of squinty going, "Wait a
49:27
minute." You know? Meanwhile, players were like, "Wait a second, that dude's dead. Why is there a dead guy there? How
49:35
is this? And to the point where I guess only in a way Blizzard actually got away with it because we thought it was a
49:40
continuity error. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And didn't realize it was actually a big
49:46
it was a big sign. Like he's holding up a sign going, I'm a plot point, but you're not going to see it.
49:51
Mhm. That's a that's a big indictment of the Kieran tour. What they did to Jana is a
49:58
big indictment of the Kieran tour. Yeah. I mean, look at look at the whole again that whole thing with the Kieran essentially ostracizing her and her
50:05
establishing uh her own city, her own her own version, her own version of what
50:11
the Kirantor was supposed to be in Theamore, right? Like that didn't work out great, but
50:16
you know, it drove her away. Probably the mo one of the heftiest magical talents of our time.
50:23
Yeah. Like number two on the on the wizard thing behind Ashara. Yeah. Easily. easily and that's that's
50:31
saying something. So like because Ashara is ridiculously powerful. But we come back to the decision of of
50:36
not rebuilding the city and yes there's an element of of Kagar just being old and and not really able to do it
50:42
anymore. But there's also this realization and a parallel with the blue dragon flight that is they went through
50:49
much the same thing and are rediscovering themselves and they had splintered and gone all these different
50:55
places and were only brought together back during dragon flight and even then reluctantly so and are rediscovering who
51:02
they are under uh the new banner under under Caligos. Right. Yeah. And it's interesting that Caligos
51:09
doesn't become the figure who can unite them until that point. Nothing, you
51:14
know, the whole deal with, you know, going through the nexus and getting yourself, you know, the the magical
51:19
confluence that didn't get the blue dragon flight to come together. It was talking to Cynosa's reflection to that
51:28
that bit of Cinderosa that had all of her memories and experiences. It was connecting with their past and
51:34
doing it not doing it all the same way. He didn't go connect with their past look and go, "Yeah, we're just going to
51:40
do this." No, he looked at and said, "Okay, these are the mistakes we made and we are going to learn from them."
51:45
Yeah. And even he even he like he opened the archives. Like he allowed non-dragons in there to study the
51:52
archives. Like he made decisions that the blue dragon flight previously would not and that sort of opened it up. And
51:58
Kaggar's in that same position, right? Kaggar even says, doesn't he don't he and Jana when they're talking doesn't he
52:04
even say something like you know we have lost our way? Yes, exactly the words he says we have
52:10
lost our way. we have lost who we were and what we were and it's it's a very
52:15
powerful moment because it's a very real moment and it's a very true moment and it's something a lot of people have been
52:22
at talking about for years honestly since wrath of the Lich King and like
52:27
the militarization of the Kiran tour makes sense in the context of what happened the rise of Ronin the
52:33
rebuilding of Doaron Ronin doing his thing makes sense but Ronin was always
52:39
belligerent You have to remember that too. When Ronin was in charge of the Karan tour, they put a guy who was a warm mage in charge. And what did he do?
52:48
He Yeah. He He's I fight things. You want me in charge? Well, I'm going to fight things then.
52:55
Yeah. Um, I will go ahead and say the other the other thing is like he the realization that Kigar has is that the
53:03
Kieran needs to live and breathe and exist in the world because one of the
53:08
things that he mentions is that sort of isolation and I felt very vindicated
53:15
during that time in that speech and that decision-m when essentially Kaggar paraphrases something that I've been
53:21
screaming about on this podcast for years which is Why aren't we making
53:27
better decisions and like sitting back and looking at the damage we've done and
53:32
instead we're just going from crisis to crisis, never forcing ourselves to have time to reflect. And Kaggar says very
53:39
much the same thing like him being in the chair, him being essentially trapped his energies in the heart and then being
53:45
spit out and put into a a chair that was made out of magical a magical construct
53:50
made by somebody who he's sweet on. uh you know he starts real yeah I haven't made room for love I haven't lived I
53:57
haven't done all this stuff I've just been moving from crisis to crisis as have we all and we don't get to study
54:03
things that are our passion and how many problems could we solve if we just go
54:08
and do our thing do you think the mages could figure out what to do with that giant dang sword that's sitting in
54:14
Azeroth or at least help with that if the ones that specialize in healing
54:19
magic or earth magic or different aspect aspects of arcane energies that intertwine with that would be allowed to
54:26
go and instead of waging war study it more or you know mages getting to
54:32
explore other cultures and other lands. You can't tell me that letting like the
54:37
mages aren't going to show up in the Arai Empire. They're not going to reach out and try to explore what happened
54:44
there because I'm damn sure they will. And now they're going to have that
54:49
opportunity. And so the decision not to rebuild Doaran or at least not rebuild it as the dollar that it was and leaving
54:56
it to the regular people that figure out what to do is the best decision that the Kieran tour have ever made because it
55:04
forces them to evaluate who they were, who they are, who they want to be and
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reconnect with their past and move forward in a way that is more integrated with the world and less isolationist.
55:18
And it's a very powerful moment. And it mirrors, like you pointed out, Matt, what Luke tried to do after winning the
55:28
war, after trying to reestablish those the the Jedi order was looking at it and saying, "What mistakes did we make?
55:35
Let's move away from them." And yeah, in a lot of ways the biggest problem he had was that he didn't have
55:43
the time because so much else was still happening. Um, for the Kieran tour that
55:49
could be their problem, too, because stuff ain't stopping. But I do think it's interesting to think
55:55
about the idea of a Kieran tour that that is less of a, you know, we're not an army, we're a think tank.
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You have a problem, bring it to us and we will figure out how to solve it. But we're not going to be the ones doing
56:06
that. That's not our job. You know, if they were to understand that it wasn't their job to actually be the ones to go,
56:15
you know, certain ones could, sure, but the as a people, you don't bring everybody to this. Um, imagine if when
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the United States went to war, they brought the city around one of their military bases and just floated the
56:28
thing over. I mean, as it is, aircraft carriers are already like many cities, but everyone on them is military. You
56:34
know, it's it's just not a good idea. And especially because, as you pointed
56:40
out, not only was it not a fortress, it was a big chunk of rock with its exposed sewers just leaking out wherever it
56:47
went. Yep. It has big hole and there's there's nothing I used to fly in it all the time. There's nothing stopping you.
56:55
It's not even like a great over the sewer at any point. They just left it there and because they're mages and they
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weren't thinking of weak points. They weren't thinking strategically or tactically. Those aren't things they
57:08
learn. You know, that's that's why spell breakers would have been great, guys. If you had some spell breakers, the first
57:14
thing they would have been like is you seriously have unguarded holes in the basement.
57:20
Okay, right off the bat, get rid of the basement. Why is this here? Why are you
57:25
floating that part? We don't need that part. Stop floating it. Um, just cut the
57:30
city off and just float that. In fact, why don't we just leave the whole thing over there? And if you want a really big
57:36
magical battleship, why don't we build one?
57:41
We could just have a battleship. Like, at least when the Legion shows up and their big flying things, they're they're
57:47
ships. Yeah. They're meant for fighting, you know. Even even the, you know, even the
57:53
Scourge understood this, you know, they didn't just show up in like, you know, anybody's old town. They showed up in a
58:00
in a purpose-built fortress. Um, just Yeah. I don't even know, man. But I
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think we can call it there. I think that's going to do it. I mean, again, we could have talked about this for more.
58:12
There's a ton of parallels in in the two media because they're very similar
58:18
organizations in terms of their structure and rigidity. Um, you can keep
58:23
drawing those those parallels all day long. I mean, heck, we even have lightsabers in game. Uh, and mages can
58:29
wield swords, so you know, it's kind of there. Uh, but I do want to thank you. Uh, again, Blizzard is made possible due
58:36
to your generous contributions at patreon.com/bizzardwatch. Your continued support means that this podcast siting community is able to
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59:13
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59:20
joining us. We'll see you next week. [Music]