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Join us as we discuss how Beledar, the immense crystal lodged in the cavern ceiling of the Hallowfall zone, could be connected to Naaru ships, Titan technology, world-soul constructs, elemental magics, stormrook gryphons, Xal’atath, and pumpkin pie. Ok, I may be making that last one up. Maybe.+Go
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[Music]
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hello and welcome to lur watch on table free form discussion about Laur your favorite media I'm your host Joe pre one
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of several lur Focus folks from blizzard watch and I've got my marvelous co-host with me today Matt Rossy how you doing
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today Matt I am doing podcast podcast is go podcast is go friends today we are
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going to be taking a been through questions that you are wonderful listeners have sent into us if you have
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questions for this or any of our podcasts be sure to send those into podcast blizzardwatch outcom specify the
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show that it is for in the subject line as well as any special pronunciation of your name if you want to hit us up on
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Discord we have two channels set aside we have the Q and podcast questions channel uh which is open to everybody
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and then we have the patron q and podcast questions Channel where we tend to look there first as a way of saying
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thank you to our patreon supporters uh and if you are a patreon supporter uh you can also send us any questions you
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have to our patreon messages we do get those and we do take those into
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consideration without further Ado let's go ahead and get started with this first one which comes from spry sprocket which
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is a no more lock over on proudmore greetings Watchers while exploring Cass
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algar I noticed that the badar is almost exactly below where dar dar Oz tan is on
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the surface what uh what if they are in fact the same object Dar oan is hugely
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important to the Earth and and is magically charged with enough that it is a uh weak point between Azeroth and the
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amtal plains could this be the effect of badar's energy seeping out over the
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Millennia uh for those of you that don't know uh Daz Dar ozan is the uh giant
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Crystal Mountain that the storm uh beaks
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uh essentially ride or reside in where during your normal questing the opening segments of this expansion uh you go to
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try to help essentially reforge the bomb for the storm Riders between them and
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their their little Griffins um it is a mountain that is filled with a lot of
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Elementals a lot of lightning Elementals uh and like I said it's all like a big
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giant crystal formation which okay I can see maybe the the tangential relation
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there but I don't know if it is exactly where uh where badar is below the
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surface I don't know if you have any insight into that M or if you've looked at the map at all I think it's slightly
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off I don't know that we can even argue that like when you go down the core way
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into the the you know next zones after you've done the the surface uh the
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corway goes straight down for a while and then it goes s it's no longer going
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straight down for a big chunk of its time I don't know that you can easily
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put one on top of the other in a three-dimensional map like that I don't know that they've given us enough work
3:20
Clues to work with on this um I I don't I'm not trying to be a a jerk about it I just think the aisle of Dorne it's hard
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to say I mean it it like the surface might be a little bit smaller than what we see
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underground right like the underground feels immensely expansive not just smaller but also like not directly oneto
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one like if you were to like if you've seen Godzilla versus Kong you know that's a ridiculous scene where Godzilla breathes fire until he melts his way to
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the core of the Earth but he he goes straight down with it if you tried
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that uh Dar aan I don't know that you would end up at badar um because you
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know badar is I I don't know that you can argue it is directly below that it's a one for one straight line shot you
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know what I mean I I don't know we can argue that and the the other argument that I've heard from a few a few other
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people that have similar theories and I've been looking and it seems like this is actually a fairly popular theory on
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Reddit uh as well is that because badar comes in at an angle that it's that
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that's the angle of it the problem that I have with it is the difference in like
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how it's presented and I know that somebody the way that it was explained and the way that I've been talking to some people about this is that they
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essentially took the ships from uh the exodar and uh basically the all of uh TK
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and and looked at them and turned them upside down where the bottom is essentially a rocky formation that looks
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very similar to what do uh D or tan looks like and the tops are very uh like
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manufactured very very produced I guess would be the best way to put it purpose-built uh and that's
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where they think that the top of Bellar may have crashed with it being faced down there like that and that certainly
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is a possibility there's been speculation that uh and we've also speculated that badar is a a Naru ship
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uh it could be a Naru uh giant Naru Crystal as well so it's really hard to
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sort of tell where what it is in relation the only thing that I would say
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is that judging by the size of uh Dar orsan is that would be the largest ship
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ever recorded potentially if it is the same entity or if it is a Naru ship yeah
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if that's a ship it's much bigger than Tempest keep it's larger than all of
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Tempest keep yeah it's like several times bigger than Tempest keep which is
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although I mean it's possible I will I will say that when you go to badar during the quest to try and stop uh
6:02
zotth you do go inside of a chamber and then you you see the actual badar stuff
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within that chamber but I don't know that the chamber is considered to be closed off like I feel like it's it's
6:15
less I went inside something and more I went through a gate so I don't think we've actually we
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we don't actually ever get to badar um we never actually like talk like touch it or anything um it it's it just looks
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like this big spike coming through and it's just it's just there in this you know in the ceiling of the cavern I was
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going to say the sky but you know it's not the sky it's a ceiling um it's just a really big ceiling that's the other
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thing though the caverns are enormous yeah um it's very hard to it's it's very
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hard to indicate you know that this is if this is a Naru type ship even if it's
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the biggest one ever like it's say say it's 10 Tempest keeps across it's it's literally like a chunk of mountains
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stuck in the world um even then like I I don't know that you can argue that the
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the very end of the aisle of Dorne is over this part of the underground you
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know Caverns uh Hollow fall does not have to be directly under that it does
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not the sizes don't even seem to match up looking at the map like looking at the various zones that we we were
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dealing with here it doesn't look to me like like Hollow fall also it's
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interesting to point out Hollow fall has a really big big ocean over it yes a very large ocean over it um which is I
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just I honestly I'm not dismissing your idea and I'm actually willing to talk about what it would mean if it were true
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um but it doesn't necessarily follow that it is true I I can't say that badar
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might seem exactly under it to you but I I am not getting that sense looking at these Maps I can be wrong I for one
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thing I'm legally blind um but still looking at this I don't feel like we've
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got a situation where the you know Cazal gar and the Isle of Dorne match up
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perfectly here yeah that's that's the part that I have a hard time reconciling and again we're we're not saying that
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you're incorrect because we don't know yet um it very well may be possible that you are 100% correct and that the two
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are related in that regard um but there may be a different relation than what you're considering yeah I mean and for
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that matter um it's quite possible that there's just
8:30
I mean the thing is is that I'm thinking about this I'm comparing uh the the mountain on the surface uh I can't
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remember the name d AAL oal Dar oztan the the mountain Dar oan okay yeah Dar
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aan does remind me of a of a narrow structure it does right the the one
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that's in oh bloody hell I was gonna say the woods my God my brain is really not firing really well today I'm sorry guys
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but uh we we know the one that we're talking about because it's the one on or where people's ghosts were walking to it
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because there's a there was a dead Nar yeah ashun giant it's a giant Crystal Mountain it does not look in you know
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Daron looks better you know it's it's it's a more fully realized model of of a
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Zone you know of a mountain but they're still both big Crystal mountains you know uh so it's it's conceivable that um
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the first idea I had when I was thinking about it which I again does not necessarily have to follow to be the truth here but my first idea of thinking
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about it was what if something fragmented and only some of it got
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underground we keep in mind too the people in Hollow fall they were teleported there by something yes um
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it's quite possible that that badar was also teleported there or teleported
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itself there um it might have been like the equivalent of an extra-dimensional escape button you know oh oh our ship is
9:56
falling apart it's going to smash into that that that continent there that Island we don't want to be here for that
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you know hit the eject but this is emergency we don't know what it's going to do but you know if we don't stay if
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we stay here we're gonna get fused into Crystal Mountain so boom who knows I don't know uh but but I do think that
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it's not it's not impossible to think about this in terms of what would happen
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if there was like a big chunk of of giant narut just sitting there on the
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surface with like you know Elementals playing all over it because if you go there when you're doing the the storm
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Riders quests and so forth to get the new storm Riders the the mountain is covered in in in storm Griffins like uh
10:39
the storm Rooks I believe they're called and that that to me is like yeah why are they all there is it it's not necessar
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it could just be that the area is very rich in Elemental Magic for some reason
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but that begs a question why you know why is it you know so there there's a couple things that I've been thinking
10:57
about with this because this question really got me questioning like everything that was going on here and
11:03
like why I've been interested in the mountain since we did the quests and one of the things I've been questioning is
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what if there's a little bit more significance to the mountain than we realize because there's a couple key
11:15
factors that you you get during questing that just don't have an answer yet and I do say yet because we are going to get
11:21
them at some point during this expansion we know we are um the earn do not have a
11:27
memory of their keeper they don't have a memory of their birth they don't have
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all the pieces to know essentially why they are but there are a couple things
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that I think are important to remember here is one earthin aren't just made out of Earth they're Crystal entities all of
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them every single one of them the ones you make the ones that you encounter all have crystallin structures inside of
11:55
them or rocks that form out of them when they eat their racial ability they're
12:01
consuming rocks that are crystals not just random rocks and I think that's
12:06
interesting and kind of important here because what do we know about crystals over the course of our time in in just
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the World of Warcraft In general crystals can record data they can record
12:18
personalities they can record life they can be used to trap Essences they also
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can resonate with other crystals and operate in really mysterious and cool
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ways the otomite crystals the Naru are crystals uh the history of the uh
12:37
interesting or important crystals that we saw on uh Argus or at least talked
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about on Argus when we learned about the V from Von and about the history there with the um oh gosh why can't I remember
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not the janii GI as there the the arar um what if this was something that was
12:57
manufactured intentionally because one thing that I think might be positionally correct is I don't know that this is
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over Hollow cor or Hollow fall I think this might be over the stone Vault and
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the stone Vault has all of these cables and entities that go into the ceiling
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and you don't see where they go the whole structure builds up into the ground itself and I'm wondering if Dar
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oan is literally right above that and I'm wondering if if the Titans did that
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intentionally to continue to essentially channel the essence of the Forgotten or
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I shouldn't say forgotten of uh the memory cores or the the Essences of uh
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the man words are hard today I've not had nearly enough caffeine today folks uh of the earth and the the the you know
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our our little our wonderful Stone companions but then fuse them with the
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ability to be animated by giving them Elemental life because seems to be a whole lot of elements about that and
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when you do the questing when you go into ston Vault and Magny does the thing with with Azeroth it's essentially
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releasing that energy into all of the dormant Crystal entities that are just there right so it I wonder if there's
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more of a relation between the stone Vault and dar Azan than there is D Dar
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aan and badar I'm not saying that they can't also be related to badar but it just seems like that might be more
14:27
likely I don't know what you think about that or am I completely out in left field no I mean I I don't know that
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you're right but it's certainly there's you've got good reason for saying what you're saying um there's there's enough
14:39
in the game to make someone think that that's the case uh um I I hadn't really thought about stonevault much when I was
14:45
thinking about this but I keep coming up with the concept of that badar is an you
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know we know we know that Elon is somehow related to the formation of the
14:56
Naru and we know that that uh Alon has a relationship with Ane yeah
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and so if badar is Ane if badar is this is this you know the Sun that was
15:07
orbiting the world on the other side you know there was the moon and the sun I I I don't know I mean badar is very
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clearly the Sun for this Cavern and there's that really old uh torren myth
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of the formation of the original torren the yeah this the the one with um Ane
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and uh Musha which is Musha is a lunar right yeah and it's about how the the uh
15:33
some of the torum were corrupted by Whispers from underneath the Earth and they had to be driven out and the the
15:39
ones that remained you know like it it's kind of sounds sort of like you know the
15:45
Toren essentially left the Toren left the Embrace of the Earth Mother and went to the surface that's what it sounds
15:52
like um and it's interesting to think about where the Isle of Dorne is in
15:57
relation to Pandaria I mean before the sundering would the aisle of Dorne be its own island or would it be that
16:03
nestled little pocket right because there's that hook where there's that hook oh I didn't even think about that I'm gonna look up a map real quick okay
16:10
while he's looking up a map real quick um I just think that it's interesting to consider that we've got all these beings
16:15
that uh we talking about the Earth in but there's like there's plenty of other entities that started off created in the
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similar way to the Earth and um there's the mou there's the uh the verul there's
16:28
the tolir um and The tovir Descendants like the obsidian destroyers and so forth uh you
16:34
see these crystalline SL you know natural natural materials Creations all
16:41
over the place and there's ones that are much closer to rock and Earth and there's ones that are like straight up metal and the Giants in particular are
16:48
usually made out of metal um although there are big rock the big rock Giants
16:53
as well so there's a lot of entities on Azeroth and around it that have kind of
16:59
a existence as natural elements given some sort of animating force and the
17:06
fact that the Elementals could be imprisoned in the way that they were by the Titans implies that the Titans had
17:12
some kind of control over Elementals from the very beginning and since the every Titan is essentially kind of like
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a a world Soul inside a body that is made up of the elements that there's
17:25
good reason to see that this is something that that might be the case that the Titans have an inherent connection to Elemental beings um but I
17:32
don't know if if you're done looking at Maps here I am like one of the things that you you kind of like got me on this weird thing is like one thing we we did
17:39
a long time ago and they did it during uh Chronicles and I think that
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maybe um Chronicles might be incomplete or at least not completely uh 100%
17:52
because we're completely on the other side of the world or whatever but there are the I'm wondering now
17:59
cuz the aisle of Dorne has that one little section in it uh right between
18:05
where Dar Oran is and the main city is where there's like that Bay where it
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looks like a land mass chunk is missing and if you go and look at that area like
18:17
there's a sheer cliff wall there's like it looks like but it's like I shouldn't say it's sheer it's like a jagged uh
18:23
cliff wall that leads down into the water and I'm curious if one of the many uh many Island structures that we've
18:31
encountered uh may be related to that section like we're talking about going
18:37
to undermine right what if that's where what if that's where the original top
18:42
part of Kazan was like it's one of those just kind of things like I'm starting to
18:48
look at like how would this piece back together how does doar AAR uh or how
18:54
does dor AAL the Isle of Dorne how does it like fit into the map now and when
19:00
you go through the the everything fuses back together so it's it's interesting to think about or at least there might
19:06
be a further relation there that we don't know yet uh but I think we're going to find
19:12
out more about it moving forward because I think it is tied together with us doing the quest line with um Dagon and
19:20
um the high speaker um I can't remember what their name is and I apologize but
19:25
the one of the cool mechanical arms um I think think as they cover more we're going to learn more about the the the
19:31
relationships more about the structures that were built why they were built where the connections to those
19:38
structures are and why they are the way they are and I think that the relation
19:43
between badar and what's happening in that section of the world will probably be revealed as a a sort of a as part of
19:52
that right I don't think it's going to be completely wholly um separate and it
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may lead into things that we wind up encountering in midnight and further on but yeah looking at this map right now
20:05
um the world map obviously you can't use it as a judge of actual distance between these places but you can use as a judge
20:12
of relative position and calgar is straight between modern calor and
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Pandaria it's like down in the South between the two and um again you can't
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use this as a judge of you know how big these areas are or whatever but on the map Cazal gar is pretty freaking big but
20:31
then again so is zandalar so are the broken Isles C tius is not that big I I'm pretty sure uh the d The Dragon
20:38
Isles are also huge it's also interesting that all these islands like they they they cut a swath like if you
20:45
go if you start at kalor and then you go south and you go Cazal gar then it's Pandaria Slightly North zandalar
20:52
Slightly North broken ises and CIS both Slightly North and then finally Dragon Isles northrend and and Eastern kingdoms
20:57
all Slightly North from them uh so there's an interesting it's like the continent scattered like like the the
21:04
actual cataclysm it forms a kind of wave of Earth that that goes in this
21:10
way it is entirely possible that Kazan which is very it's not currently on the
21:16
map it's in some of the maps in chronicle but Kazan could be a chunk of C of calgar that broke off yeah I mean
21:23
it would also potentially explain why the Goblins are really really interested in the aisle of Dorne like abnormally
21:29
interested in the aisle of Dorn I would almost say because I remember having this conversation with a couple guildies when we were running through some Mythic
21:36
uh Dungeons and we're were just we were doing like the metery and we were doing uh some of the other sections we're like
21:42
why do the Goblins care so much about these these places like it's it seems
21:47
weird that they would just want to show up here and like immediately just have
21:53
business ventures here because it's kind of one the primary consumer of the
21:59
products wouldn't consume the products um and then or at least most Goblin
22:05
products and then two like it just it seems like the Venture company is just too interested in what's going on and
22:12
again not just the surface not just the metery like when you go into um uh what is it ashah hat like
22:19
there's a ton of goblins all over the place there as well there's the whole Spa thing that's going on that they they opened up down there they're all over
22:26
Hollow fall they're all throughout the ringing deeps like it's it's fascinating
22:32
so I'm curious why why they're so interested in it and I don't think it's I don't think it's as simple as they're
22:38
just looking to strip resources and make a profit I'm sure that's part of it but there's probably another ulterior motive
22:44
which is why we're going to be going to the undermining at some point I also say I'm looking at right now the map that
22:50
was published in the first Chronicle which is missing several things CU several expansions have come and gone since MH for example it does not have
22:59
uh the dragon Isles on it at that time nobody knew where those were um but looking at what's on this map you've got
23:05
vashir which is of course you know that area that got you know basically some of
23:11
it got raised to the surface during cataclysm um there's there's the broken
23:16
Isles that's that's there on the map and then there's the great sea and then there's zelar and then there's Pandaria
23:22
Kazan is significantly further north but that's not necessarily a problem because
23:29
all these land masses didn't just the the the the the where you look at at the
23:35
various maps of Azeroth right now the various lands that are still there they didn't just subsume like the the center
23:43
of the continent didn't just go into the water and that was the end of it they were pushed apart the forces that
23:49
destroyed ancient calor didn't just destroy it they reshaped they moved things and that's happened again several
23:57
I think Deathwing also cause stuff to move so a lot of this stuff wasn't here
24:03
exactly like it would have been closer um zandalar in particular would have been much closer to uh Mount hayel
24:10
because Mount hayel and xandar are basically copies of each other they're both giant mountains where Spirit beings
24:18
that that we now basically would call like Watchers or you know Spirit you know the animal what were they called
24:23
the animal Guardians wild Gods the wild gods and so forth lived on those
24:28
mountains they they were like twins of each other so you have to remember that a lot of this stuff would have been much
24:34
closer together that's one of the reason let's let's talk about that real quick cuz you you hit on something that I I was thinking about as well and I think
24:42
this is interesting mountains just mountains in general in wow you mentioned mount hayel
24:50
with all the wild Gods what other mountains do we have that have very important figures in them trolls xandari
24:57
yeah the xandari have you know xandar mountain is currently a Titan facility no less it's important to where the uh
25:06
why can't I remember them now the evil wicker guys from Battle for Azeroth oh
25:11
right yeah I know who you're talking about the drust the drust are all based in a mountainous region in the
25:17
mountainous land where all of their like tunnels wind deep through the Earth like
25:22
it's north Rend I mean you know storm peaks is like the home of of you know
25:27
old there's basically a lot of mountains and mountainous regions in northrend
25:33
that are very important Pandaria for that matter um when you go to several of the Titan facilities in in Pandaria they
25:40
are built into or around mountains yep and then even like go as far as looking at Black Rock Mountain which maybe maybe
25:47
less so than the others because it wasn't necessarily a Titan facility but it has to sit at some Locust of power
25:54
because look at everything that happens there well I mean alon's right there yeah you can see you can see Black Rock
26:00
Mountain from old one we have no that's the thing is like we talk about quote unquote Titan facilities and so forth
26:05
but you have to remember that Black Rock Mountain was full of dwarf buildings dwarfs don't just you know the
26:13
the black the Dark Iron Dwarves went to that mountain for a reason and it's it's it's tempting to remember that Titan
26:20
facilities are much bigger than what we see of them like when you go to alir and
26:26
you at one point you get on a train and you ride out way way way the heck away
26:32
to get to mimiron's place which is still in the old war complex but you had to get on a train to get there like think
26:38
about the distance here that's at least you know that ride is intended to be a significant distance it's not right next
26:45
to anything and think about the the the path of the Titans that used to extend through all these different facilities
26:52
that we see that worrest Temple was on it there were lots of places that the Titans the Titan forged at least the
26:58
know the Watchers and so forth thought were important and and based in this
27:04
network that they built and the network was built to basically feed all the way down and when you go to the broken Isles
27:12
it's interesting that the broken Isles has the Temple of s the Temple of aloon which we call the tomb of sargeras it's
27:18
right there it's not on the it's not facing the melstrom so the broken Idols
27:23
might have been shoved over from a different area or turned cuz you look at the broken Isles and then you look at
27:30
northren the South part of North Ren I forget which of these two the start zones it is I'll have to actually look
27:36
at the map but worest Temple so this is yeah this is uh where the the alliance big Z starting zone is it's one of two
27:43
of them but if you look at that that area and then the broken Isles the broken Isles could be broken off and
27:50
then turned so that the Temple of of aloon which would have been facing
27:55
directly onto The Well of Eternity and the exactly opposite from zenari the
28:01
place that's now called as Shara it's suddenly not facing that way because of
28:07
the the disaster that pushed the continents apart but if you turn it now suddenly it is and you're like oh okay
28:13
that makes much more sense because they were they were facing each other there you know there was zenari was originally a Lund the eye of a loon um it's just
28:22
it's it's interesting to think about like you mentioned Mountains and the importance of them um like here's cus
28:27
with all of it mountains and so forth off the coast of gilas yeah I just because even in the dragon Isles Iron
28:33
Forge which is not a Titan facility exactly but it's built into a freaking Mountain yeah and like look what it it
28:39
was able to to burrow beneath the ground in one of the most important rituals of the modern W era was performed there
28:45
like it I just find it fascinating and maybe it's an accident um or maybe it's
28:51
100% intentional dude it's zais yeah before he became Deathwing he
28:57
deliberately created mountain ranges to separate out people so they could all live in in like effectively sheltered
29:04
you know they wouldn't be like having war with each other because they didn't necessarily meet until they were like you know capable of having peaceful
29:10
relations and when he became Deathwing he deliberately started tearing those down to so people would go to war with
29:18
each other well yeah and I mean look where he set up shop too right like look where look where one of his facilities
29:24
was located at the the top of Black Rock Mountain right like and just one that's in um the mountain uh on the uh broken
29:31
Isles the one where the uh Toren are living yep and then you have the one that we literally just went through uh
29:38
last expansion when we went to the Deep places um that was literally underneath a mountain andan laboratory way way deep
29:46
underground but yeah and Legion where he you know had his power under the high the the uh High Mountain uh like the
29:53
facilities right like it it's it's it's fascinating I think it's I think there is intentionality here and I think that
30:00
that's maybe why I think there might be more to the mountain in uh in uh calgar
30:10
other than you know just being the the bottom of like a a spaceship I think it
30:15
might be intentional I think there might be something like going back to my original point I think that there's an
30:21
intentionality there I think it was crafted and put there for a very specific reason that we just don't know
30:26
yet because all of these facilities all of these important options all of these
30:31
uh things were built there were built in or on or around mountains all these
30:36
Locust of power uh most of them not all of them most of them uh over the history
30:41
of the game have been in mountains or on mountains or at high peaks and I don't think that's
30:48
accidental no I was going to even say if you look at um zadar you know I'm
30:53
zalazar I'm zalazar my God I can't say their name zandalar zandel
30:58
you look at zandar Mountain and then you realize that it's you know the the city itself is this giant Titan facility uh
31:04
with this giant like key lock system and then you go to uh older and there's the
31:10
the other half of the Titan facility and it's very similar to what you see in an
31:15
you know in an carage and you know the old you know old them has a very similar
31:22
setup where there's this giant Titan facility and then this other Titan facility that mirrors it all on is its
31:28
own mirroring tit facility as far as we can tell because there's old Emon and new alemon and just you know there's
31:34
tons of alemon there's a lot more vemon than we originally realized and we look at the Chamber of the heart uh where
31:41
Magny was working out of and then we like I think in this expansion there's there's one just like it you know
31:48
there's there's redundancy built in and we have to remember that all these different facilities were built with one
31:54
purpose to tap Channel and feed
31:59
azeroth's World Soul the power it needed to heal well we we think or at least
32:04
that's what we've been told we don't know this expansion and other and and even last expansion has really started
32:09
to bring that into question yeah but even if that's not the case even if it was an exaggeration or or like a cover
32:16
Story the facilities are widespread across Azeroth enough that it was a credible one and if you look at like we
32:23
we just got done talking about the storm peaks look at the the engine of the makers which literally enormous engine
32:29
that's built into the the storm peaks as a whole and what's going on in the storm peaks almost continuous electromagnetic
32:37
disturbances AKA storms very similar to what's happening over at the uh the mountain of Daran
32:44
yeah because darlan could very well be the Terminus of the engine you were talking about that's why I said I there
32:51
was reason to think it you've got all these different places that seem to be I think we need to start realizing that
32:56
the Titans have a a very strong connection to elements and to the point where Titan
33:02
and and that might possibly be because when the Titans were making the Titan forged they deliberately made their
33:09
ctors Elemental in nature because they were going to be fighting Elementals like look at what happened with Odin and
33:16
ragnaros ragnaros tried to burn his entire face off and just gave him a cool
33:21
beard you know it's they're they're deliberately composed of of durable elements that don't you know IM medely
33:28
get destroyed when they facing a like a like a fire lord and that's goes back to the whole idea of the original uh dis of
33:35
nor which remember the ones in alemon are the original ones when you go to alemon and you find the Dison those are
33:41
the real ones the ones you the ones you get access to when you go up to uh the
33:46
halls of stone and Halls of lightning those are the ones Loki messed with but the Lok and sorry not Loki uh when you
33:53
get down to alemon those are the ones that tier basically grabbed and had arcadis and ironia W you know take and
34:00
go guard those are the real ones and they specifically say that the various Earth and other beings were deliberately
34:07
composed of the durable elements of Azeroth now what does what do we see
34:13
when we see the earn being made in the war within we see them being you know
34:19
essentially created out of these elements in the uh in the great machine yeah in the in in the stone Vault like
34:25
when you're in it's another facility that is making them literally out of stone and Crystal very similar to the
34:32
the engine that we see in the the mou uh which ising Earth in we've see Earth in get made there yeah we you know there
34:39
there's even iron Earth in and frost Earth in like so there's there's different elements being used the ones
34:46
in in calgar we don't know if they're a specific kind of Earth in or not but
34:51
they seem to be because they're the first ones that have crystals associated with them that heavily yeah that's true the first ones that we've seen right
34:57
yeah I I mean I you're you're you're we're on the same page I think here yeah I'm I'm really I really want to know
35:04
what the deal is at this point now yeah I mean was was all of this built to be a prison was it built
35:11
basically hold the uh the Earth the the world soul in the planet like you know what's going on we don't know but it's
35:18
interesting to think about if you're looking at the world map of Azeroth and you're looking at the map we have now um
35:24
where they you've got calgar you know isod DOR all that stuff is now on the map I I
35:31
keep drawing back to this there's a real life example of this and that there's a subcontinent bigger than India submerged
35:38
around New Zealand like the islands of New Zealand are basically just the peaks
35:44
of mountain ranges that were once would have been part of this giant land
35:49
mass like I said bigger than India that's currently under shallow water
35:54
it's like the Pacific Ocean is all around it and then there's this shall water that that's still part of the Pacific Ocean but it's like there's a
36:00
plateau except the plateau doesn't quite hit sea level and I find myself wondering if all of of uh the
36:08
underground places we go to in calgar are the result of subsidence from an impact because if you look at if you
36:15
look at the uh the thing that Joe was talking about the the bit of of D of the is ofor that kind of like just it's it's
36:22
like heading down heading down suddenly this is hook coming up and there's space between the city
36:28
and this the mountain and if you look at the the island of Thea on Earth it blew
36:33
up and it looks like this the island of Santorini now looks like what you see in
36:39
the Caldera of the original Mountain that blew up to form Santorini like
36:45
subsidence you blow up a big chunk of it and then it drops into the ocean um so
36:50
yeah there's a lot of possibilities here and badar is one of them badar absolutely could be related to the stone
36:57
vault yeah like it's quite possible that badar is both you know we know that
37:03
aloon had a relationship with the Titans to the point where aloon was like literally buddied up with a with a Titan
37:11
with Anar like they were essentially boyfriend but essentially girlfriend girlfriend um there's there's multiple
37:18
talks about them being their love they you know and we knew before that even from Legion we knew that you know one of
37:24
the four Titan relics you used to try and you know the The Pillars of Creation there or whatever they were called
37:29
they're one of them is not AAR themed it's Alon themed aloon themed so there's
37:36
a relationship there maybe aloon sent you know if Ane was considered you know
37:42
the other half of Musha and Ane who were the eyes of the world orbiting it maybe
37:47
she sent Ane in to help them create whatever they were creating or maybe an
37:52
is an aspect of aloon that we haven't seen yet because if aoon is a being that we know was capable of being in multiple
37:58
places at once and you brought this up a while ago yeah and I think this is I think this is further uh I don't want to
38:07
say confirmation because we obviously don't know yet but I think this is further supporting evidence of it we know that Alon is able to be in multiple
38:14
Worlds at once we've learned that in shadowlands and be in multiple places at once if this is a being that could
38:20
fracture itself that could Splinter itself that we've seen as a theme in other blizzard games um
38:28
there's a possibility that this is Ani and this is an aspect of aloon this is a
38:34
a piece of aloon that was sent to go do a specific thing yeah or it could even be you know we know that that aloon had
38:40
a a child yeah blue child which was considered to be the child of a loon and The Loon of course being the Moon that
38:45
we also sometimes call The Pale Lady or the white lady an could have been the other one yeah I mean Musha and Ane
38:53
could really well be the the blue child and you know badar maybe B was once up
38:58
there you know there was the blue child and something else child and it's it's interesting we know that badar keeps the
39:03
doing the switching between Darkness and Light but we know that that didn't that started recently I wasn't doing that
39:09
before um but we also don't know if it was doing that prior to to the like it
39:15
being there we don't know how long it's been there yeah we know it's been there long enough that the people in Hol ofast when they got there it wasn't doing this
39:22
and 10 years later now it started doing this does that mean that there was a cycle that they just missed the front the front end we don't know yeah because
39:28
they've only been there so many years so I think it's about either 10 or 20 it hasn't been that long no I think it's
39:34
yeah you know I think it might be 10 or 20 years but yeah like there's and that's the other thing that that unfortunately with badar is the only
39:41
entities that might actually know about it are some of the nerubians that we are
39:47
are are dealing with and even then they the ones that probably knew anything about it at all have probably been
39:54
experimented on and Driven Crazy uh like the Queen the original Queen um not aner
40:01
so like I mean were you was it you that told me your theory that the original material that made up um zotth dagger
40:08
was in fact carved from badar was that you uh no that was not me I don't I
40:13
don't think that I mentioned that uh but that's an interesting Theory well good job whoever said it I remember someone
40:20
saying it but I don't remember who sorry but I mean we looking at zth zth is
40:26
metallic is in structure but that could be crystallin so there is a possibility
40:31
of that uh there's definitely a possibility that if it is a crystallin structure it would be perfect for
40:37
containing the essence of an entity right uh as we established at the beginning of this this question uh so
40:45
there is that definitely a possibility of that I would definitely would not discount that yeah I was just thinking about it in terms of you know
40:51
unfortunately I've play a ton of Diablo so um I keep thinking about the
40:58
fact that we we have an example of crystals being used to contain things in that too yep and that also doesn't work
41:04
too well but I mean I also just thinking about just in terms of wow like the memory core of the Earth in like they're
41:11
crystals that's what we retrieve we retrieve Crystal Crystal bits of them when we go in and they ask us to
41:17
retrieve the memory cores so that they can be you know archived they're crystals it's a giant crystal library
41:23
right let me actually give you this one for a sec here I'm looking right now at a video of when they made they had
41:29
people make uh a zotth model the original like the
41:34
dagger and it if you had told me this was based on a loon I would it I would
41:41
have believed you yeah go back and take it one step further go back and look at the um the night elf
41:49
um Heritage armor and the the the blades you get from it and the blades you get from doing the end quest of uh Dragon
41:57
flight with uh bellam and look at the the the glaves look at the patterns on
42:03
them look at how they're shaped and that tell me it doesn't look like a blade of zotth I mean zotth itself looks very
42:09
similar to glaive type weapons we've seen before um so yeah there's there's a
42:15
there's a lot we don't know and the fact that you know night elves are descended from trolls who apparently are descended
42:22
from just n natural entities that lived on Azeroth I I find myself wondering
42:27
about that why were they why were trolls and night elves among the entities in alir like the statues the big glowing
42:35
crystalline not crystalline uh constellation looking statues of the various races there were there were
42:40
night elves and trolls and torrin there and merfolk yeah all of whom the merfolk
42:47
were actually on the stained glass window oh that's right that's right they weren't in the the you know here's a constellation looking version of so and
42:54
so but still yeah they were merfolk um there's just a lot of stuff that hasn't
42:59
really the fact that we've got the Temple of aloon which is a Titan structure it's it's straight up a Titan
43:05
structure you go in there it's it's very much like the other Titan buildings we've seen uh it's it's very close to
43:12
worest Temple um in terms of its towerin and so forth I I find myself going okay why is
43:19
this like this um if if the night elf model is that literally like what like
43:26
you know that we keep seeing aloon depicted as that is it possible that it's not that aloon is being depicted as
43:32
a night elf but that night elves are like turned into looking Alish and that would be why other people that got hit
43:38
by various Titan stuff like the uh what do you call them the the not the mou the
43:43
jinu the ginu stand up like night elves they have very night elf posture yep
43:49
like so yeah I don't know it's just but the point being there's a ton of stuff we don't know but there's absolutely a
43:54
possibility that badar is related to that mountain or is that mountain and badar both related to something else
44:01
like it's quite possible that they took like if badar is a part of some giant
44:07
Cosmic crystalline entity that was part of Alon that might have made the uh the
44:13
the stone Vault out of it on purpose it might have been what it was brought down there for you know that because remember
44:21
they were trying we we we found evidence at the end of uh dragon flight that they
44:26
were trying to like create defenses against you know the the old gods and so forth and I think it was Joe you were
44:33
the one talking about how to you when you went to the aisle of Dorne it looked like a collapsed tree to you yeah it
44:39
looks like it looks like the like a tree like a almost like a world tree size uh
44:44
and World trees like to grow out of mountains yeah highest point or at least they're put there for specific reasons
44:50
why again going back to the whole point of poweres of power yep I mean if you go
44:55
again we'll talk about Legion for second second the the storm Drakes are all living on top of mountains you know they
45:02
you go up there and you go way up there and you finally run into the like the the basic matriarch of this of this you
45:08
know the storm Drakes and she's like look help you know save my children and I'll do whatever you want and they're right there Odin put them there but Odin
45:15
didn't make them so yeah there's a lot there's a lot of wild stuff going on here yeah it's gonna be fascinating to
45:21
see how it sort of unravels and uh I'm really curious to see what the next steps are in the campaign uh I mean I'm
45:28
looking forward to it for for for sure um we have about 10 minutes left so let's see if we can try to get through
45:34
maybe another question here um let's go ahead and talk about this one and I
45:40
don't know if it's going to be a 10-minute one but if we get an extra few minutes it's fine um this one is from easy target who uh this has been in our
45:47
que since Halloween so we didn't forget about you uh hi there Watchers long time no tyght so I've been mulling around the
45:53
whole lore thing about world souls with your discussion on the oldy void Lords and whatnot I keep coming back to the
45:59
shadowlands when argus's Soul kind of broke the Arbiter two competing thoughts emerge the first is why didn't this
46:04
happen the first time as in when sargeras put down the corrupted World Soul uh if it was a world Soul it should
46:10
have shorted out the Arbiter right the other thought is if there was no world Soul sargeras thought there was what did
46:18
he actually kill an old God in Disguise or if a corrupted Titan would it have been killed like an old God of Azeroth
46:25
you kind of Whittle them down and they don't EX exactly die then that chunk of world Soul would still be around today
46:30
we might call it zotth um so one thing to keep in mind is back when
46:35
sargeras uh may have ended that world Soul's existence we don't know the exact
46:40
time frame in relation to what everything happened in shadowlands and one thing we do know is that zoval at
46:46
one point was the Arbiter not and then he decided that you know he couldn't be the Arbiter anymore and instead had to
46:53
usurp the creation of the uh first ones because he he Lear something horrible was coming but not only that something
47:00
horrible was coming he learned that more existed he learned about the first one's plans and so I've been wondering
47:07
wondering if in theory um that he was
47:12
the Arbiter at the time that the first world Soul died and that's what clued him in to there being other beings of
47:20
great cosmic power that led him down the path to look into other like to
47:25
basically look into what led him down his dark path and I'm really curious if that was really The Tipping Point for
47:32
him see that's a cool idea I my answer is much simpler though Argus shorted out
47:37
the first Arbiter the second Arbiter for two reasons one the second Arbiter wasn't a person no it was a robot yeah
47:43
it was essentially like a drone that just did sorting it had the mantle of the Arbiter put on it but it didn't have
47:49
any personality or or mind so when it was hit by this thing it couldn't process and it it's it's like feeding a
47:56
ton of garbage data to a computer to make it come to erroneous conclusions secondly Argus didn't go there of its
48:03
own accord Argus was grabbed zoval uh I forget what his real what we were
48:08
calling him at the time I he call him zoval now he was the Jailer the Jailer thank you he basically set up everything
48:16
so that he could use along with the Naim keep in mind the Naim uh were basically part of the Legion at the time so they
48:22
were in great positions to be doing subverting things um they basic Al threw
48:28
his soul into the shadowlands where it wasn't supposed to be we're told that repeatedly it wasn't supposed to be
48:35
there but that that was their weapon to use against the the for lack of better word I'm going to call it the false
48:41
Arbiter because it wasn't a real person it was just this this robot that was doing the job and cathus was in on it
48:48
and may have helped orchestrate Pull It in absolutely so it's possible that when when uh sargeras destroyed the uh first
48:55
world Soul the corrupted one and we don't even know if it itself was corrupted we know that the planet it was
49:01
on was getting corrupted and sarar was like I'm not letting this happen but here's the here's the here's the curveball we don't know that it was
49:06
actually a world Soul no we don't we we don't know if that was an illusion or something that he was just made to be
49:12
believe that is what happened or you know he just didn't know he saw he felt some kind of essence in the world and
49:19
just thought nah I know sargeras was a lot of things but he wasn't the thinker of the group no you know he was the guy
49:26
who C who caught planets in half that was that was his solution to problems
49:31
man you know even like agramar was like dude do we have to go immediately to S of the planet and half do you have a
49:36
better idea many many better ideas how would I make a giant rock Elemental and
49:42
it can just beat up the problem okay you want to play toys with it I I don't why
49:48
I have a gigantic World destroying sword why wouldn't I just lead with that you know but regardless uh that's one
49:54
possibility but let's assume for a moment sir gar was completely correct there was a world soul in there it was getting turned into horribleness he took
50:02
action and stopped it from happening we don't know what was supposed to happen to that world Soul at that point was it
50:08
supposed to go back to wherever world souls originally came from and that's the other thing is we don't we don't
50:13
know what happens CU we do know well we kind of do at least from what a fully formed Titan looks like yeah right
50:20
because when sargeras killed the pantheon he essentially took their souls and tortured them he took their Essence
50:27
he didn't do it immediately he had to find them first yeah they escaped him there uh kazgaroth sent their their
50:34
Essences their world souls whatever off to find you know suitable hosts for them
50:39
to live in and they picked the ones on Azeroth possibly because those were the only ones that were currently extant I
50:45
don't know but obviously that when they did that they nearly drove their host
50:51
insane because it was like trying to like hold the soul of an entire world inside one small Titan Watcher uh I
50:59
think it was Roden Master raw who was the one who figured out I got to pull this out of me yeah it's bad he
51:06
literally took the essence of amanul out and put it in a cave uh because he just
51:11
couldn't handle it um and then we also part of the whole sequence of events is we go to
51:18
alundis uh to try to save Anar from being captured right alris the world
51:24
that has the name aloon built into it yeah a planet filled with nature and very clearly with a Titan facility door
51:30
on it because the way in and the the around it looks like night off architecture combined with uh Titan
51:36
facility architecture we haven't we we've barely talked about that over the years we should probably at some point
51:42
do a deep dive into that because that's a whole Cavalcade of of the deal guys
51:48
what's the deal with this planet ois with its Titan facilities and aars right
51:53
here that looks like it's inside of an Elvin temp yeah on the planet named after her
51:59
girlfriend yeah oh it's just wof there there's a lot to that but yeah I I'm
52:06
actually gonna point out too um I don't I get where you're going with this because you're trying to come up with an idea of why what zotth is um I have I
52:16
lean more towards the idea that zotth is a chunk of one of the of the of the original old gods yeah for all we know
52:24
it's a chunk of yashar right yeah I mean I I I I've often thought it was and
52:30
we've we've seen that that's how the old gods sort of not just procreate but
52:36
bestow gifts we know for a fact that they Ed pieces of themselves as weapons
52:42
for their generals for their followers so imbue them with their power as they moved out into do combat we know that
52:48
has that axe named dark Edge of Insanity um obviously uh the the remains of yrj
52:55
gave uh desecrated image of gor goral and you'll notice that the weapon in
53:00
question the desecrated image of G of goral is not goral yeah what it's not the actual goral it's yeah it's not the
53:07
gal but the name of it the actual name of it in the language of the old gods is zalat yes I was just gonna say that I
53:15
know and I wasn't gonna let you because my God I started this I'm getting that word up
53:20
no yeah exactly go ahead keep going I'm just saying that that since we know that the naming convention is the same for
53:28
both of these weapons and we we can absolutely see that when uh uh we go
53:33
into the oh bloody HCK why can I not remember the name of that stupid fish the old God that was a fish that that n
53:41
Nazo thank you nao's weapons have a different naming convention and we never even see the naming Convention of kath's
53:47
weapons because they just use the translation dark Edge of Insanity and you know it's it's there's another
53:54
weapon using a similar name there's like I think it's dark edge of malice or something so there's there's a lot of
54:01
these possible Titan you know Titan weapons are usually named like something like you know doer of this old God
54:07
weapons are T generally tend to have a title that is like you know translated into like a long sentence like you know
54:13
dream of a destroyed world or Slayer of your might of your nightmares or something and then you know it's usually
54:20
a short noise like zotth zalat um and
54:25
they they are different I I really do think that zotth I would not be surprised to find out that zotth
54:31
was a chunk of yesj that that is now independent because yrj died but because
54:38
it's an old God it doesn't like the pieces don't die yeah and the the the
54:43
other thing to consider that too is her absolute positive hatred of the rest of the old gods she she doesn't she doesn't
54:50
like n or she doesn't like n no no I I agree with you totally she doesn't like any of them I don't think it's hat I
54:56
think it's contempt okay yeah I'll go with contempt contempt May some of them some of them
55:02
I'll say do actually seem to show hatred like ath really seems to hate everything cathon seems to hate the other old gods
55:08
cathon hates his own followers kathon hates you personally cathon hates everything but I don't think zotth hates
55:16
much like salth to me almost feels like you know you ever like have a conversation with someone and they're
55:21
like oh bless your heart and you realize oh you you hold me in complete freak contempt yeah which I think is possibly
55:29
more accurate but I also think it's an evolution of the weapon based off of who held it because or the fact that it's
55:35
gone from being a weapon to being a person that because I think I think the entity contained within it evolved and I
55:43
think that Evolution because if you give it to a craxi a craxi is born of an old God's body it's going to have whatever
55:50
traits the old God decided that that craxi is going to have a weapon wielded by a craxi is not going to potentially
55:56
evolve quite like zotth did and zotth had a journey and a large journey and a
56:03
matter of fact right now like a whole point of what happens with the dwarves
56:09
modg good go to Grim Bal go through the story of grim Bal go to Black Rock
56:14
depths go through that dungeon or the raid now that you can go through and do it and all of that exists in part
56:22
because of modg good because of what happened with her Dark Art and from all
56:27
uh accounts of the character the the the the NPC of M good that entity uh that
56:34
was cold and calculating and not necessarily overtly emotional right it
56:40
she was powerful she wanted strength for her people and what is zotth really like
56:46
that that Essence that that sort of Personality like you said it's that content it's the I have power I'm just
56:53
going to go do the thing I don't need you to love me I don't care if you love
56:59
me because I'm just going to do what I need to do or what I want to do and that
57:04
will be the end of it and I think but there is like the there is a malice to
57:09
it and I want to make sure I say that because if you watch the opening of War within you watch how zotth you know has
57:16
set up the whole situation and transforms from the the dead Wizards I think you were the one going wait a minute yeah what were you were you the
57:23
one saying it like I seem to remember you like at the time wait what's that guy dead guy doing here yeah exactly
57:29
what I said he transforms into zotth and she just has this big just grin like
57:35
this little s it's not a grin it's like a little smile she has this smile on her face like oh I've been waiting to show
57:41
you just how little like hair yeah and there there's definitely there is definitely contempt and Malice there and
57:47
the source of that could also be because of yashash yashar rash's entities the the Sha that were born from essentially
57:55
his many heads being or their many heads being torn asunder they're all emotions right every single one of them is an
58:01
emotion Pride anger yeah fear yeah malice is an emotion contempt is an
58:07
emotion it's entirely possible that that is the aspect that this weapon was built from um originally because zth was for
58:15
all we know originally a weapon uh and that would be perfect for a weapon right to imbue it with the sense of malice a
58:20
source a sense of contempt and then have it evolve and take on more humanoid emotion and become and I will call it an
58:28
evolution what we see now with zotth itself The Entity is well beyond
58:34
anything else we've encountered it is a wholly unique being and it is something
58:40
that we have not fathomed at this time wholly and completely and we probably
58:45
won't until likely midnight right I don't think we're catching zalot this expansion yeah I mean it feels like that
58:52
this is they're setting this up to be a very episodic um series expansions I feel like it's it's not likely that we
58:59
will be defeating her at the end and if we do it's not going to really stop anything yeah because you know we we
59:05
know she was working um Talon in in in hand with oh bloody I can't remember his
59:11
name either evil dragon guy from the last expansion you know the one I'm talking about uh erron yeah so she was working
59:18
with erron he gave her the uh essence of galacon uh we don't know what the heck
59:23
she did with it but regardless he gave it to her so yeah uh there could
59:30
absolutely be um more to to her she could definitely show up and then like she could definitely like make her
59:36
Escape at the end of this one or even the middle of this one she could like leave her plans going you know Swan off
59:41
to do whatever she's going to do and while we're best desperately trying to stop it you know she could very well you
59:48
know she could very well be off to the next expansion sorry I just realized I just remember the thing about how the
59:54
seventh head of yrj breathed out theeven seven the seven burdens uh although that was from an early draft of the story and
1:00:01
we really only see six Shaw in the game which means there could be the seventh Shaw could very well be um zot death it
1:00:07
could have taken one of the one of the shaw could have been turned into a weapon yeah or depending on what it was
1:00:12
or the essence of Yash Raj may have uh gravitated towards us since that weapon existed we don't know yet so I'm looking
1:00:19
forward to seeing that because zotth is an interesting villain in just all
1:00:26
aspects so I'm really curious to see what her origin is going to be and what her tie is with sort of the things like
1:00:34
how did she know that she could flip Bellar to a dark cycle because she did
1:00:39
she's the one that you know when the the black blood was activated she's the one that was kind of pushing that around why
1:00:45
how so I look forward to those answers in the near future at least hopefully in the near future cuz I don't want to
1:00:53
wait H but I think that's going to do it unless there's anything else you want to add Matt I mean we could keep talking
1:00:59
forever but no I don't I don't have anything that wouldn't just be me noodling fair enough well friends I do want to thank you for joining us on this
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Wonder supporters and we will see you next week [Music]