Up next in 10
We thank our listeners and patrons for giving us another round of great questions, which we summarily answered and used as a diving board directly into the deep end of tin foil hat theories and speculation. First, who was the elf Xal'atath is currently using for a body? While we do have a pithy answer to this identity courtesy of a particular quest line, there's also a broader lore implication in terms of who this poor erstwhile High Elf once was. Another listener wanted to know what kind of humanoid form Azeroth will have, and specifically suggests it may be a Troll. Trolls were one of the progenitor races of Azeroth, so is it possible they were formed in her likeness? This leads us into a discussion of the races of Azeroth and how they may have evolved over the centuries -- and who may have been pressing a thumb on that evolutionary scale.
If you want even more background story, we also have a guide to every Warcraft book in chronological order (for those of you who prefer reading that way): https://blizzardwatch.com/warcraft-books/
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0:04
[music]
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:12
table free form discussion about lore in
0:13
your favorite media. I'm your host, Joe
0:16
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:17
from Blizzard Watch, and I've got two
0:19
marvelous co-hosts with me today. First,
0:21
Matt Rossy. How you doing today, Matt?
0:23
Go. I'm locked in eternal war with my
0:26
computer, but I'm trying.
0:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a metaphor
0:30
in there about uh technology and being
0:32
internally at war with it. Uh joining us
0:35
as well is uh our latest addition to the
0:38
Lore Watch crew, Eric Oday. How you
0:40
doing, Eric?
0:41
>> Uh Joe, you know, there's no lore in
0:43
lumber now that the new achievements are
0:46
live for getting you can harvest lumber
0:49
while you're mounted if you harvest a
0:51
lot of it. But it's a lot and I'm
0:52
working on them, but it's thousands and
0:55
you don't learn anything about the game
0:56
or Azeroth while you're chopping wood.
0:58
You just chop wood.
1:00
>> I have learned.
1:00
>> What you do learn is that the trees
1:02
don't scream obscenities at you when you
1:04
cut them down, which considering how
1:07
many living walking trees there are in
1:08
Azeroth is kind of surprising.
1:11
>> I will say the other thing that I
1:12
learned from it is is how many axes are
1:14
just left in trees around Azeroth.
1:18
>> How many times have we the player base
1:20
as large chopped down all of the trees
1:22
on Azeroth? Probably many times over at
1:24
this point. What's ironic is that the
1:26
trees of Azeroth grow back in lightning
1:29
speed. Like within days, no seconds.
1:33
Really?
1:33
>> Wait, so are trees like Azeroth's like
1:36
hair? Are we like trimming Azeroth's
1:38
eyebrows while we do this? And they're
1:40
just growing back in record speed.
1:42
>> No. No, I don't think so.
1:43
>> But I don't think that's a question.
1:45
>> Maybe, but I don't think that's one of
1:47
the questions on today's list. Uh, but
1:49
we are going to be answering more of
1:50
your questions, our wonderful listeners.
1:52
Uh, I do want to thank you for sending
1:54
those in and remind you that we want
1:56
more of them. So, continue to send those
1:58
in and you can send questions into
2:00
podcastbas.com.
2:02
We ask that you specify the show that it
2:04
is for and the subject line as well as
2:06
any special pronunciation of your name.
2:08
If you are a Patreon subscriber or if
2:11
you don't really like email, we have two
2:12
channels set aside on Discord where you
2:14
can also submit them. For everybody, we
2:16
have the Q and Podcast questions
2:17
channel. Uh, same rules apply sending us
2:19
an email. If you are a Patreon
2:21
subscriber, we have the Patreon Q and
2:22
podcast questions channel where we tend
2:24
to look there first as a way of saying
2:26
thank you for helping us keep the lights
2:27
on. Our first one comes from Felony.
2:30
Zalat is currently camping out in the
2:33
shell of an elf body. Do we know who
2:35
that vessel was before Z climbed inside?
2:38
Was she a good person, a bad person, a
2:41
perfectly normal person who was a mix of
2:42
both depending on the day or situation?
2:44
We actually know very little about them
2:46
outside of the questing, but we do know
2:48
who they were. Go ahead, Matt. Yeah,
2:49
they were in the quest. No, I'm just
2:51
saying they were in the quest. Um, I
2:53
didn't do that quest because I didn't
2:55
want to have a tentacles hat forever
2:58
like the rest of you mad people who
3:00
thought, "Oh, they'll just get it taken
3:01
off. You can't just take an old god head
3:04
off your face, man." So, I didn't do
3:06
that quest, but I know it was one of the
3:08
blood elves who was distantly related
3:11
and trying to power and Okay, high elf.
3:14
What else?
3:15
>> Yeah, it was it was a high elf. So, uh,
3:17
an Ananas. Anus. I I I
3:21
Yeah, Anus. I I N A N I S. I hate words
3:26
like Yeah.
3:27
>> Uh, is a highelf. Just Just don't
3:30
pronounce it.
3:30
>> Yeah, there you go. Uh, is a high elf
3:32
from Falcon's Rest and Dusfar who was
3:35
part of this group called the Deep
3:36
Watchers. Uh the deep watchers were in
3:38
possession of the void stone which was
3:40
this void artifact uh that essentially
3:43
was like suffused with all this power.
3:46
Matt I think at one point had posited
3:48
that it may have been similar to like a
3:49
void infused ottoai crystal uh I think
3:52
way back when
3:53
>> that argument.
3:54
>> Yeah. And I think there's an argument
3:55
that
3:55
>> I've actually seen those before. So yeah
3:57
>> and with how much power was stored in
3:59
this I think there's a pretty good case
4:01
for that still. Uh but the quest is that
4:04
while we're basically paling around with
4:05
Zalot because that we that's a good idea
4:08
apparently uh when she's in her knife
4:10
wife form uh we come across these group
4:13
that are trying to harness the power of
4:15
the void stone. We then kill this person
4:18
uh with the urging of Zalat cuz again
4:22
this makes perfect sense. And then Zelda
4:25
then coaxes us into unleashing the void
4:27
stone's power, which then gives her the
4:29
strength she needs to escape the blade
4:31
and get inside of this body. Uh,
4:33
corrupting it in the process and turning
4:34
it from a high elf into essentially what
4:37
is a it is a void elf, but like a void
4:41
elf plus uh almost like a new game
4:43
plus+. Um, the weird thing about it is
4:46
as you complete this quest, it feels
4:49
like uh this character uh an anise,
4:54
which I'm just going to go with that,
4:56
uh, accepts that she's becoming a vessel
4:58
for Zalot and believes that that is
5:00
truly her purpose. So, we can surmise a
5:04
couple things from this. One of which is
5:06
that she's kind of out of her mind
5:08
cultist. two, that this cult was
5:11
probably formed by Zelat at some point
5:13
or somebody who was once in possession
5:15
of Zealot. Uh, and three, this was part
5:18
of a long con by Zealot to try to find a
5:20
new shell to get inside of.
5:23
These these are the things that I get
5:24
from it. Uh, I don't know if you have
5:26
anything to add to that, Eric, or if you
5:27
if you did that quest and you have any
5:28
feelings about it, but
5:30
>> I had never done the quest until this
5:31
week when I did it as part of my
5:33
research, and I didn't know that I was
5:35
going to get a tentacle eye thing on my
5:38
head. So, I had to Yeah, that was fun to
5:40
look up how to get rid of that. I didn't
5:42
notice for like a day and I was like,
5:44
>> you didn't actually get rid of it. It's
5:45
in you now forever.
5:47
>> Um,
5:48
>> Zotas will even comment on it. Actually,
5:50
you know who else comments on it? uh our
5:52
old buddy um N'oth, when you go back in
5:56
time, if you've had that thing on you at
5:58
any point, he makes comments about it.
6:00
>> Also, if you if you do the um why can I
6:03
not remember the underground cavern with
6:05
the
6:06
>> uh Arafi Holofall? If you want to haul,
6:09
you do the voidfish quest, it also
6:11
comments on it as well.
6:12
>> I will say that uh Inanis or whatever
6:15
how we're pronouncing it, it means void
6:17
in Latin. And so that tells me that
6:20
maybe that's a taken name and that
6:23
>> she maybe wasn't always in on us and
6:26
maybe had a different name. I don't
6:27
think that that's another character that
6:29
we'll find out. Oh, she was she was she
6:31
used to be this, but maybe that's not
6:33
her name that she's had for 10,000
6:35
years. Or maybe it is. Um, and Zelat is
6:39
kind of watching them with the uh the
6:43
void stone and she kind of makes like a
6:46
look at look at these fools. They don't
6:47
know what they're doing. Let's like like
6:48
let's take this from them. So they seem
6:50
like almost inept maybe. Um and then I
6:54
don't know. I my thought was like we you
6:56
have to kill the cultists and this high
6:59
elf and then Z decides that one, but
7:01
like she easily could have decided to
7:02
take any of them. So we could have been
7:05
she could have taken the bearded humans
7:07
form. We could be chasing a snidly
7:08
whiplash looking guy across Azeroth for
7:10
the last two expansions.
7:11
>> I mean there's also the thing we should
7:12
probably point out the new cinematic a
7:15
little bit. Um, not that it has anything
7:17
to do with the elf body, but it does
7:20
sort of relate to Zelat and the possible
7:23
tendency of her to steal bodies. Uh, cuz
7:27
in that cinematic, uh, you guys know
7:29
about the cinematic, I'm sure, listening
7:31
at home, but it was a pretty recent one
7:33
they put out, uh, basically featuring
7:35
Zalat. Um, I don't know how to put this.
7:38
Like, it's about basically you see a
7:42
small figure, like a small semih
7:45
humanoid, looks like a child, and at one
7:47
point it gets sucked up into like a void
7:50
torrent and then seems to kind of become
7:55
Zalot, you know, and and that we don't
7:58
know what that means. We don't know if
8:01
it's actuality or not. Uh, cuz it's
8:04
Zealat. I mean, you can't really believe
8:06
things that that you're told about
8:09
Zalat, but it is worth noting that she
8:12
might very well have been mortal once
8:16
and might have been searching for a
8:18
mortal body this whole time. We don't
8:20
know the answer to that question, but it
8:21
is a question we do have to ask in the
8:23
wake of that cinematic.
8:25
>> Yeah, there's there's a lot that sort of
8:29
there's a lot of up in the air with with
8:30
Zotath and where they were beforehand.
8:34
uh because we we have glimpses, we have
8:37
bits and pieces of it. We don't have the
8:40
whole truth and that's by design for for
8:43
multiple reasons. Um we we know that the
8:47
being or the the at least the sentience
8:49
that is Elth is ancient. Uh that
8:52
definitely either doesn't doesn't like
8:54
the old gods at all, views them as
8:56
parasites or uh divergence, I guess
8:59
would be the best way to put it. Um, I
9:02
it's and has been on for a while, but we
9:06
don't know that if Zalat was something
9:10
that was consumed by the void at some
9:12
point and made into a harbinger. We
9:15
don't know if that Zealot is the end
9:17
result of a a body or a people that had
9:21
been previously consumed uh by uh why
9:25
can't I think of his name now? Uh from
9:28
Manifford.
9:28
>> Dementious.
9:29
>> Yeah, Dementius. cuz she definitely does
9:31
not like Dementius and it seemed like
9:33
she might have been a herald for him at
9:35
some point or a harbinger in name like
9:38
that as well. Um she seems to know an
9:41
awful lot about the void. Uh but yeah,
9:45
it's there's it's interesting because
9:48
she claims that she was a mortal child
9:50
that was consu consumed and a world from
9:52
consumed by the void. We don't know if
9:55
that's actually true. see a a scene of
9:58
it with her wearing a pendant very
10:00
similar to the dark heart, but whether
10:03
that's true or not, I don't know. It
10:06
also might be one of those things where
10:07
it's true from a certain perspective.
10:08
>> Yeah, absolutely. I do also want to
10:10
point out since since Eric went and got
10:12
all Latin on us,
10:14
>> uh the word in Latinas, which has an
10:17
accent, it also means foolish or
10:21
>> empty-headed. Uh it's one of those words
10:25
that's got a lot of meanings. It's the
10:27
root for the modern word inane. Like
10:29
when you call something inane,
10:31
>> Yeah.
10:31
>> you're basically saying it's pointless
10:32
or stupid or or empty. That's something
10:35
to keep in mind with the character
10:37
anonymous that it might have been a name
10:40
she gave herself to indicate the void,
10:43
but it also might be kind of a hint that
10:46
she was misled or duped. And
10:48
>> her title her title is Chronicler of
10:51
Whispers. That was the other thing in my
10:52
notes that I thought was interesting.
10:54
And and as a result of that, it's
10:55
something to think about. Zelat is
10:57
almost always
10:59
misleading people. She doesn't lie very
11:02
often.
11:04
>> No. Omission maybe.
11:06
>> Yeah. Omission. I'll give her lies of
11:08
omission. I'll give her saying enough
11:10
truth to hang you, but not enough to
11:13
actually provide the real nuance. You
11:16
see that all through the whole deal with
11:17
you working with her and uh I can never
11:20
remember the name of uh Alaria's buddy
11:22
there. the the void ethereal dude,
11:25
>> Lo Locus Walker.
11:26
>> Locus Walker. Uh Locus Walker is made to
11:29
look like a liar continuously through
11:31
that entire quest line because he was
11:33
lying. But it's it's just it's not
11:37
exactly surprising that Zalot is
11:40
revealing all of this at the worst
11:42
possible moment to make Ayria question
11:45
Nexus Walker. I mean, Locust Walker.
11:47
Sorry. I keep want to call him Nexus
11:48
Walker cuz it's Lo Nexus Prince or Locus
11:51
Walker. I wanted to jam them together
11:53
into one guy and that doesn't make any
11:54
sense. Uh, but regardless, it's not a
11:56
surprise that everything Zalat is doing
12:00
to quote unquote lead Aaria forward to
12:02
her point of view also manages to slag
12:05
off everybody else who has been like
12:09
giving a different perspective than
12:11
Zealot has
12:12
>> or or all the people that are trying to
12:13
ground too, right? like it's every like
12:18
I think we can go back to the novel and
12:20
we can really see that because that's
12:23
where the cracks are really shown and
12:25
I'm curious for the motivation behind
12:28
right is she somebody posited that the
12:31
vessel that Zalat is in currently is
12:34
degrading and that she's looking for a
12:36
new host body and yria's already pro
12:40
proven that she can withstand the void
12:42
and is a strong vessel Um, another
12:46
person I saw cuz I spent a lot of time
12:48
this weekend going through uh the the
12:51
weird in spindly Reddit of Warcraft
12:54
lore. That is a weird place. You if you
12:57
all post in there, I see you. You ask
12:59
some weird questions. um but posited
13:02
that potentially she's rebuilding
13:05
her own sort of like allegiance, her own
13:09
people that will see her point of view
13:11
that are strong enough to resist the
13:13
void to literally fight back the void
13:16
because the void is what you know
13:19
consumed her and turned her into what
13:20
she is. stole her life, stole everything
13:23
from her, made her a herald for for
13:26
Dementius, and sort of set her on this
13:28
path of servitude. And everything we're
13:31
seeing as a result of it is literally
13:33
the tantrum of a child who doesn't want
13:35
to be governed anymore, and instead
13:37
trying to find all the the friends of
13:39
the playground that they can and
13:41
convince them that they should be
13:42
throwing rocks with her. And there may
13:45
be an element of truth there. Just
13:47
because you've lived for millennia
13:50
doesn't mean that you've grown up. It
13:52
doesn't mean that you have all all the
13:55
pieces. Right. Go ahead.
13:56
>> Another way to look at it is like you
13:59
you ever like meet people who when they
14:01
were younger were always everyone was
14:03
always telling them how like emotionally
14:05
mature they were and how they had an old
14:08
soul.
14:08
>> I hated that. Yeah. But yes,
14:10
>> it's it's a really fun way for them to
14:13
to admit that they've traumatized you
14:16
without actually having to admit that
14:18
they've traumatized you. Uh Zealot does
14:22
have a lot of the personality traits of
14:25
someone who has internalized
14:28
>> trauma and decided that's how the world
14:30
works. And I I do like that idea that
14:33
Zalat is essentially just the equivalent
14:36
of someone who was in the gifted program
14:37
for void people and is now burned out
14:40
and just wants to tear it all down so
14:42
she can build a better thing that is
14:45
just going to be that thing again cuz
14:47
she doesn't actually know how to build
14:49
anything that isn't. Every time she's
14:51
built alliances, it's always been
14:53
through carefully balancing everybody
14:55
against each other so she could pull the
14:57
plug at a moment's notice. As we learn
14:59
throughout our experiences in Kesh,
15:03
she's always putting a self-destruct
15:05
button. It's all she really knows how to
15:07
do. Like, think about the beginning of
15:09
the war within where basically she's
15:12
already done with the Narubians and
15:15
wants us to destroy them.
15:17
>> Yeah. There's there's also
15:19
>> disposal option.
15:20
>> There's a there's an interesting
15:21
parallel to that, too. Uh, and I want to
15:23
get Eric's point of view on this
15:24
afterwards, but this is something we
15:27
know about already. So, this is a a
15:29
minor spoiler if you've been avoiding
15:31
everything from Midnight so far. So,
15:33
come back in like a minute or two, but
15:36
it's in the early stages of Midnight in
15:40
the trailers and everything else. When
15:42
the assault on the Sunwell is happening,
15:44
it's not just void entities she's
15:46
summoning. It's devourers as well. Like
15:50
void corrupted devourers.
15:52
So, that sort of goes into what Matt's
15:55
saying, which is the only thing she
15:57
knows how to do is throw that
15:58
self-destruct button cuz devourers,
16:01
that's all they do is consume like
16:04
material from the prime material plane
16:06
or anything for energy. They eat. We've
16:08
seen that they eat. We see that they
16:10
eata like so seeing that they consume
16:13
void and can subsequently essentially be
16:16
controlled or influenced by the dark
16:19
heart or or zealot. They're destructive
16:22
forces. They are not, you know, the
16:26
these like cuddly little things. And
16:28
she's going right for them. She's going
16:30
for these these destructive forces that
16:32
are easy to manipulate.
16:35
And like Alyia is sort of the odd one
16:37
out in that, right? Yria is maybe a
16:40
little easy to manipulate, but she's not
16:42
mindless. And so like I I don't know.
16:45
It's it's it's an interesting thing. And
16:47
I know we've come a long way from where
16:48
like, you know, talking about Ana's
16:50
body. But it seems like it is a specific
16:55
choice, right? Especially if she if
16:58
Ayria is her end goal.
17:00
has a very strong emotional tie to
17:03
elves, high elves in particular. And
17:07
when you start then in a high elf body
17:10
that is very similar to her, it makes it
17:12
a little easy to sort of play on the
17:14
emotions, at least in my opinion. Eric,
17:16
what are your thoughts upon this long
17:18
random tangent rant we've been on
17:21
listening to you guys talk? The two
17:22
things that came to mind were that one,
17:25
the new cinematic is Dalat convincing
17:29
Salidar to, you know, bend the knee and
17:32
become allegant to her. And so again, we
17:36
don't think she lies, but it is her
17:37
version of the truth. If it is, you
17:40
know, here's what happened to me. I'll
17:42
tell you what happened when I was a
17:43
young person on if that is some other
17:45
planet, her home planet, and she was
17:46
some sort of mortal. She does say when
17:49
she takes Inane's body, I haven't taken
17:51
a mortal form in so long. So, we've
17:53
known that she took a mortal form at
17:54
least, but now we know it might be her
17:57
own original mortal form. Um, and the
18:00
other thing that really is kind of
18:02
striking me is that she's sort of we
18:04
know that she's a we talked about her as
18:08
an entity of the void for a long time
18:10
and we didn't know if that meant that
18:11
she was an old god from another planet
18:14
or a void lord or some in some in
18:17
between some other creation. But knowing
18:19
that she is, you know, a creature of the
18:21
void, she sort of has been using the
18:23
void as a tool and not necessarily to
18:27
make everything else void. the way that
18:29
the old gods and the void lords seem to
18:31
be, they want to create, you know, void
18:34
titans and blanket the universe in void
18:37
and and all that. It really seems like
18:38
whatever her goal is, which we talked
18:40
about last week, whatever it is, the
18:42
void is just the thing that she has
18:43
found that she can wield that she's
18:45
going to use to get whatever it is she
18:48
wants. And it kind of almost reminds me
18:51
of going back a couple more weeks and
18:53
talking about the novel of Terallion who
18:55
is seeing the light more as a tool, as
18:59
something to be wielded, as less of a,
19:01
you know, religion than um, sorry, not
19:05
Terion. I'm I'm talking about um,
19:07
>> Aar.
19:08
>> Artor.
19:08
>> I'm talking about Arthur. Terion is the
19:10
one that seems it more like a religion.
19:11
Artor is the one who seems it more like
19:13
a tool, has a different relationship to
19:15
it. So, it it's interesting that we're
19:17
getting more Artor in this next chapter
19:19
as well. Um, and it'll be interesting to
19:21
see the relationship as it goes between
19:24
Artor and Yria and Zalatath and how that
19:27
all plays out because we know it's going
19:28
to be a main part of Midnight.
19:30
>> Yeah. You there's the other interesting
19:33
thing about all that too is the the
19:36
worst outcome or the worst revelation
19:38
out of all of this is that Zalat is
19:41
telling 100% the truth, right? like
19:43
everything she's told King Salad Bar uh
19:47
is 100% accurate and because
19:49
>> please watch this sneeze card friends.
19:52
[laughter]
19:52
>> Um but like it is that's the worst
19:55
possible outcome, right? because then
19:57
like you start to understand she becomes
19:59
a sympathetic villain almost and I'm not
20:02
saying that because I want to like her
20:04
but it makes her more complex and gives
20:07
her more than one note and it elevates
20:09
her maybe potentially a little bit from
20:12
that tantruming child. Um maybe maybe
20:16
this is coming from a place maybe she
20:18
just needs a hug. Who knows? Um, but the
20:21
other interesting thing though too is we
20:23
know that she has Locust Walker and
20:25
Locust Walker is not very likely to bend
20:27
the knee. Locust Walker is pretty
20:31
staunchly opposed to the void despite
20:34
embracing it as a power to be used
20:38
against itself. So, it'll be interesting
20:42
to see how that works because I go back
20:44
to that whole relationship with Yarriia
20:47
and Locust Walker and their
20:48
conversations and the influence they
20:51
both had on each other as they like sort
20:54
of grew. Like Locust Walker, I think in
20:57
the past, wouldn't have like really
21:00
cared or had such an emotional
21:02
attachment to like Ayaria as a student,
21:04
but Yaria sort of like won him over and
21:06
sort of like brought a little bit of,
21:08
for lack of a better term here, cuz I
21:10
don't want to say, I don't know what
21:11
else to call it, but humanity to his
21:13
worldview to to how he views things. And
21:17
Locust Walker added an element of sort
21:20
of detachment almost to Yaria that she
21:23
necessarily didn't have before. Maybe
21:26
like a little seeds of it from when she
21:28
was like briefly ranger general and the
21:31
the stuff that happened with the war and
21:33
being independent and and not wanting to
21:35
lose people because of, you know,
21:36
feeling getting hurt, but it wasn't as
21:39
pronounced as before. So, they both kind
21:40
of altered each other. And I'm wondering
21:42
how that would potentially affect Zalat
21:45
now that essentially Locus Walker's on
21:47
tap, right? We don't know how being in
21:51
the dark heart, how that communication
21:54
works or how that goes back and forth.
21:57
Uh, I know that Khadgar sort of talked
21:59
about it a little bit as being like this
22:00
sort of I want to say weirdly like blank
22:05
space for him, but maybe that's because
22:08
Salatath didn't really need anything
22:10
from him besides from using him as an
22:11
arcane battery, right? So, I'm really
22:14
curious to see how that sort of evolves
22:15
and what comes up the we're not going to
22:18
have to wait long, right? like it's sort
22:20
of like the central story arc for what
22:22
happens at the the opening salvo of the
22:25
expansion, which you know is only a few
22:27
weeks from the time of this recording.
22:29
Uh which is wild to me, all things
22:32
considered. Uh but yeah, so I don't know
22:35
that that answered your question. Maybe
22:37
it did. Hopefully you just enjoyed the
22:39
ride. [laughter]
22:41
Uh think we'll move on to the next one
22:43
which comes from Azeroon. Uh is Azeroth
22:47
a troll? What I mean is that Titans have
22:50
avatars. So when if Azeroth is born,
22:54
will her avatar be some variant of troll
22:56
given how old the race is and how often
22:58
they have been shaped by Azeroth into
23:00
other races? One of those random shower
23:02
thoughts I had right after we need to
23:03
buy shampoo. I understand. Trust me.
23:07
Shower thoughts around lore in these
23:09
games is wild sometimes. Um I have my
23:12
opinions, but I'll kick it over to you
23:14
guys first. So, whoever wants to go
23:15
ahead, what do you think? Is Azeroth a
23:18
troll?
23:18
>> I would say no. And that's my answer
23:20
that I had to think really hard about
23:22
and do a lot of research on. Um, but I
23:26
like I like where it's coming from
23:27
because there are not that many entities
23:30
original to Azeroth. There are a lot of
23:32
we we have a lot of aliens on Azeroth
23:36
that we can play as and interact with.
23:38
We have a lot of entities on Azeroth
23:40
where we know that they came from
23:42
something. um they were created by
23:45
something. They were I mean humans and
23:48
dwarves. They they were created by the
23:51
Titans and then you know a couple
23:52
iterations later they became humans and
23:55
and what we what we see now. Um, trolls
23:58
are one of the races that seem to just
23:59
have been on Azeroth since the beginning
24:03
without being, you know, created by some
24:06
entity that flew over from space cuz
24:08
they thought Azeroth was interesting,
24:10
without being created by a wild god in
24:12
their image. Like so many of the races I
24:14
mean you talk about like Gorlocks and
24:16
Tuscar and harpies and Quillbbor seem to
24:18
have origins in well a wild god um
24:22
created by
24:24
desired to create a whole race in their
24:26
image. Um so it's I could could could
24:29
troll be like what Azeroth would be like
24:33
in its primal form if it took an avatar?
24:37
Um, I also went back to Anourus and I
24:40
went to battle Argus again because we
24:43
know that the Titans claim that world
24:46
souls are baby Titan eggs that hatch
24:48
into Titans. And so therefore, all uh,
24:52
world souls would be Titans and take a
24:54
Titan avatar that looks vaguely kind of
24:57
like a cross between a human and a Vikru
24:59
maybe. But uh when Argus takes its form,
25:04
it's been, you know, corrupted by death
25:06
magic and it still looks like the rest
25:08
of the Titans. It doesn't look like
25:10
anything different. It's a whole another
25:12
planet. It has not been ordered. Like if
25:15
the Titans are going around and ordering
25:17
otherwise primal world souls that are
25:19
untouched and then once they're ordered
25:21
and they hatch into Titans, they look
25:23
like Titans. Um if that was the case,
25:25
then Argus would have looked like
25:28
something else. So maybe world souls
25:31
when they have an avatar
25:34
would be just that and they all look the
25:37
same. Um I'd be really interested to see
25:39
if it was trolls. But also the trolls
25:42
didn't start out as trolls. The trolls
25:44
were some other primitive race and the
25:45
ones living near the well of eternity
25:46
kind of gained sentience and
25:48
intelligence. So you have to go like
25:50
maybe even further back and maybe trolls
25:52
and goblins possibly because goblins
25:55
have to be in the conversation too,
25:56
right? Goblins are also a race that
25:59
originated on Azeroth and we don't
26:01
really know where. Um
26:03
>> it's almost like that very similar So
26:04
it's almost like that's very similar to
26:06
the divergent path that like trogs and
26:08
dwarves and gnomes are.
26:09
>> Yeah, exactly. So go we goblins and and
26:12
maybe an earlier precursor more like a
26:14
pygmy. So I don't know maybe Azeroth
26:16
will be a pygmy.
26:17
>> Matt,
26:18
>> um I don't know that I agree with
26:22
something he just said.
26:23
>> That's what we're here for. I don't know
26:25
that we know that trolls were exposed to
26:28
the well of eternity.
26:30
>> We're told that.
26:30
>> At least not directly. Well, there's the
26:33
thing. Who told us that
26:34
>> exactly? Yeah.
26:35
>> Yes.
26:36
>> Um but but more importantly,
26:38
[clears throat] we know that like each
26:41
world soul exists in a in a world. We
26:44
know that Azeroth has a world soul in
26:46
it. And we know that that world soul was
26:48
extraordinary enough that when the
26:50
Titans found out it had old god
26:52
infestation, instead of trying just
26:54
killing it and and wiping, you know,
26:56
okay, we don't need this world, they
26:58
were like, we got to fix that. We know
27:00
that Azeroth has connections to at least
27:02
one and possibly all potential Zerith.
27:06
We know that there's connection to
27:07
Zerith Mortise. We know there could be
27:09
connections to Zerith Orice because
27:10
that's mentioned in a document we find
27:13
at the beginning of Dragon Flight. Um,
27:15
there could very well be multiple
27:17
zeriths for every plane of existence
27:19
that that touches upon Azeroth.
27:21
>> Yeah, there's probably a Zerith Ignis
27:23
and a Zerith like whatever. Yeah,
27:25
>> whatever the light one would be. And
27:27
there might very well be connections on
27:29
Azeroth to all of them. Uh, if that is
27:31
the case, that would explain why its
27:33
world soul was so important and, you
27:37
know, they needed to preserve it. Uh,
27:39
now there's a big there was a big wound
27:42
in Azeroth for many, many, many years.
27:44
And that wound led to what we called the
27:46
well of eternity, which was that giant
27:48
pool of seething magical power that was
27:50
literally the blood of the planet uh
27:53
being funneled back to the world soul.
27:56
So it didn't die. Uh and so it kept
27:59
being you know not only it kept its
28:01
process of of generating itself for till
28:04
it eventually would awaken. Um if you're
28:06
exposed to that well of eternity juice,
28:09
what happens?
28:10
>> Elanization.
28:11
>> You get elflike. Yeah. You you get like
28:14
a body more like one of the elves.
28:16
>> I mean, look at the look at the Jinu.
28:17
>> Night elves. Yeah, Jinu look like night
28:20
elves with murloc heads.
28:22
>> Um, the night elves who were night
28:25
trolls, dark trolls, look like night
28:27
elves. I mean, it it's sort of the we
28:31
even have something I've always thought
28:33
was interesting in that we have a base
28:36
that was corrupted by an old god that
28:39
used to be right off the uh side of the
28:41
well of eternity before the sunder. And
28:44
in that place, namely Anarage, there are
28:47
the twin emperors.
28:48
>> And what do they look like?
28:50
>> Look like night elves. Um,
28:53
>> not like their heads are not, you know,
28:55
you don't
28:56
>> they're they're an approximation or a
28:57
corrupted version of it like
28:59
>> but I feel like that that form that
29:02
things on Azeroth keep taking when they
29:06
are exposed to the Well of Eternity or
29:10
some other corruptive force as in the
29:12
case of the Twin Ms. They may have been
29:13
directly created. We don't know how we
29:16
got the Twin Ms. They might have been
29:18
fully corrupted from some Titan. We we
29:20
have no idea. There are, you know, over
29:23
just over like one place into Al Aldum,
29:26
there's a the the the pillars, you know,
29:28
the I want to say pillar of creation,
29:30
but that's not what it is. It's the uh
29:31
halls of origination are right there.
29:33
>> Mhm.
29:34
>> They can they can just reformat the
29:36
planet and it's full of these walking
29:40
titan servants very similar to the
29:42
watchers up north. Like for instance,
29:45
Sesh there. They're all right there. And
29:47
we know that at least one of them, Mosy
29:49
Syria and the Unscarred used to be
29:51
different. Then he got nearly destroyed
29:54
after he'd been corrupted and the old
29:56
gods rebuilt him into his current form,
29:58
which is like a giant bird thing that
30:00
walks around and on a body like a night
30:02
elf. Um, I think it's quite possible
30:06
that anything Azeroth would choose as an
30:09
Avatar would look like a night elf
30:12
because it would be empowered by
30:14
Azeroth's world soul, which seems to
30:17
like it when things look like night elf.
30:19
That doesn't mean that it couldn't be a
30:20
troll because at least some trolls like
30:23
the Xandelar are also fairly tall and
30:26
statuesque and other than the fact that
30:28
they have tusks and their feet are a
30:30
little bit bigger don't look all that
30:32
dissimilar to night el. And by the way,
30:35
I want to go to like to up to a night
30:37
elf someday and say that out loud
30:38
because I'm positive they would not like
30:40
it.
30:41
>> Also remember that night elves are are
30:42
canonically taller than high elves.
30:44
>> Oh yeah, but I meant like
30:46
>> Yeah, I'm just for the people at home.
30:47
This is for the people at home.
30:48
Something to bear in mind.
30:49
>> Canonically speaking, night elves are
30:51
the tallest of them. They're even taller
30:52
than the night born who look very
30:54
similar to them, but they're slightly
30:56
shorter, like little tiny bit shorter.
30:59
Possibly because they're supposed to be
31:00
all a feet and drinking, you know,
31:02
literally drinking French wine and
31:04
acting like French people. Uh I don't
31:05
know why that would make you shorter.
31:07
The French were notoriously pretty
31:08
freaking tall. Look up Charlemagne
31:09
sometime. But whatever.
31:12
Yeah. [gasps] You I just I do think it's
31:14
just a funny thing that everything
31:15
exposed to the the Well of Eternity
31:18
tends to turn into an elf body.
31:20
>> Yeah. But I I think that's I think you
31:22
you kind of went the exact place I was
31:24
going to go with it. And I want to add a
31:25
couple things to the beginning of it.
31:26
Right. So, one of the things that this
31:28
posits is that trolls are natural to
31:31
Azeroth. We don't know that. We don't
31:34
know anything that is actually native to
31:38
Azeroth. The only thing that we could
31:41
even potentially
31:42
maybe, and this is a very strong maybe,
31:46
give any credit to are Lowa and Wild
31:49
Gods. But even then, and we have to go
31:52
back to Shadowlands for this, you have
31:54
to remember whenever you're talking
31:56
about any of this, all of this was part
31:59
of the plan of the First Ones. The birth
32:01
of the universe, the seeding of planets
32:04
was all part of something they did. It's
32:07
not spontaneous generation. And so what
32:12
exists on this outer shell, this egg as
32:15
we've called it for many years, or at
32:16
least I have, doesn't necessarily mean
32:19
that that is the natural true form of
32:22
what Azeroth sees in her mind's eye. For
32:26
all we know, it's a dwarf. Because
32:29
again, who were the speakers to Azeroth?
32:32
Who were the ones to tap into her? It
32:34
was the diamond earthn the the diamond
32:36
ones that were doing. Why did they were
32:38
they believe they have the connection?
32:40
Is it because they were made of diamond?
32:41
Was it because they resonate? Or is it
32:43
because Azeroth imprinted on them? Is
32:46
there a reason why it started with that
32:49
and then as they moved to the surface
32:51
things got taller and leaner? Probably.
32:53
There's probably a point of evolution
32:55
there. But to Matt's point,
32:56
>> oh my god, this of Noran, dude. The disc
32:58
of Noran, the actual ones in Alderman.
33:01
They talk about the different versions.
33:04
>> Yep.
33:04
>> They talk about the ones that are more
33:06
mineral oriented and will serve as
33:09
carvers and defenders and then they talk
33:11
about the ones that will actually turn
33:13
into the organic life of the planet.
33:15
>> Yep.
33:16
>> So, yeah, I had thought about that
33:17
>> that all of this that all of this is
33:20
potentially also an evolutionary
33:22
programming plan. not necessarily by the
33:25
Titans, but by the Titans and the
33:27
director that they were were implanted
33:29
with potentially I I've talked about
33:31
this a lot too, right? Where the Titans
33:35
for all of their power to me now that
33:38
Shadowlands has existed are nothing more
33:40
than essentially prime material versions
33:42
of the pantheon of death. For all we
33:45
know, they are mantles of power more
33:47
than anything else, right? And so the
33:51
form that they take, the the things that
33:53
they do can be anything. All we know is
33:56
that life that was created at least
33:59
seems to be in part a plan of the first
34:03
ones. And what the Titans were doing,
34:07
they may not even realize what they were
34:09
doing when they set this all in motion.
34:11
when they programmed the keepers to do
34:13
this, when they programmed the the these
34:16
Titan forged races to do what they were
34:18
going to do because everything comes
34:21
into this humanoid form. The Tolvir
34:24
become obsidian destroyers and
34:26
potentially and become cat people, but
34:30
nothing says that they didn't evolve
34:31
into humanlike things. Why were there
34:34
like Matt pointed out with like a siren
34:37
or any of those other you know
34:39
watcheresque things that walked upright?
34:42
Uh mou uh the statues that are in the
34:46
form of the mou the watchers those
34:48
things they're not you know weirdly like
34:52
cloven hooved or or having those like
34:54
animallike back paws. No
34:56
>> look at Norish.
34:57
>> Norshine stands upright like a humanoid
35:00
like the Twin Empire. He's the Titan
35:01
watcher who's the closest to the mo
35:03
>> very much so. Uh I mean this all seems
35:07
like this was potentially part of the
35:08
evolutionary plan where everything
35:10
starts in a very specific form but then
35:13
moves its way up their chains into and I
35:16
I wasn't joking when I said
35:17
alphanization. There's this we talked
35:20
about this before uh what is it? Carson,
35:22
Carsonization, which is
35:24
>> Yeah. when crabs basically anything
35:26
that's underwater long enough uh ends up
35:29
evolving towards a crablike shape, even
35:31
if it's not related to the animals we
35:33
call the true crabs. And what's weird is
35:36
that doesn't just happen with animals.
35:38
>> No.
35:39
>> If you know what a tree is, you know
35:41
that trees are not necessarily related.
35:45
>> Mhm. Like tree is just what happens when
35:48
plants decide I want to get really big
35:51
so I can get as much sunlight as
35:52
possible. They grow a big woody stalk,
35:56
big root system and go up in the sky so
35:58
they can get more sun and get above
36:00
everybody else who's trying to do the
36:01
same thing. And this has happened many
36:05
many times and none of these these trees
36:08
are related. A mangrove tree is not even
36:10
closely related to an apple tree.
36:13
They're both plants, but that's
36:15
basically it. And it's so fundamental
36:17
that some forms of fungus have done it,
36:20
which isn't even the same kingdom. It's
36:22
it's completely different. But even
36:24
fungus are like, I also want to get a
36:27
giant stalk and get really tall. I don't
36:29
want to do that to to absorb sunlight. I
36:32
want to do that to block sunlight. So
36:34
more stuff down there is infectable by
36:36
fungus.
36:37
>> So that's that's convergent evolution.
36:39
That's yeah, evolution giving. There's
36:42
an advantage to having things done a
36:44
certain way. And so that happens that
36:46
there's a way that's best to fly. So
36:47
birds evolve to fly and bats evolved to
36:50
fly and insects evolve to fly. They all
36:53
have wings, but that's, you know, it's
36:56
it's not that they were trying. There
36:57
was nothing shaping that other than the
36:59
natural selection of progressive
37:02
generations getting a little bit better
37:03
at gliding until they could fly. So,
37:05
what
37:05
>> when you have a design system like
37:07
Azeroth as Joe is I think Joe is going
37:09
towards and I'm going to shut up and let
37:11
him talk.
37:11
>> No, no, a Go ahead. Go right ahead.
37:12
Bring bring
37:13
>> I just think that when you have a design
37:15
system, it has prerequisites programmed
37:19
to what is the best thing to do in this
37:23
situation? Are we are is are you going
37:25
to be living underground and shaping the
37:28
earth? Then you should be blocky and
37:31
full of rock so nothing can hurt you
37:34
down there
37:34
>> and short so your so your tunnels don't
37:36
have to be as large as you would
37:37
necessarily need to move properly.
37:39
>> Yeah. Squat. Even if they're giant even
37:41
the go look at the giants sometime.
37:43
>> Oh yeah they're squat.
37:44
>> The ones that are native to Azeroth.
37:45
They're squat. Some of them look a lot
37:47
like big freaking dwarves.
37:49
>> Um
37:50
>> oh
37:52
real quick though like going that same
37:53
route. You can look at the uh Vikru and
37:57
look how they evolved. What did they
37:59
start evolving into? Humans.
38:00
>> They started getting Yeah, they got
38:02
human. What is human if not inter
38:04
intermediary between dwarf and elf?
38:06
>> And we know that that exactly exists
38:08
because of the Arafi who have basically
38:10
humans who have bred with elves like
38:12
yeah
38:13
>> all of this is compatible. All of this
38:15
is genetically compatible. There's a
38:16
reason for this. Sorry, please continue.
38:18
What's what's even funnier to think
38:20
about is that if we look at another
38:22
world that has a similar system,
38:24
although different, go to Dranor and
38:27
look at its evolutionary history. It
38:29
started off with a Titan deciding we
38:31
need a mountain that is so freaking big
38:34
and massive that it can crush all these
38:38
incredibly out of control plants and
38:41
rebalance.
38:43
>> Yeah. And the plants do look like elves.
38:45
Yes. because they're absorbing nothing
38:46
but like spirit from the world cuz
38:48
there's no world soul in there to eat it
38:50
themselves. But they made the giant and
38:53
the giant did its job pretty well. I
38:54
think his name was GR. Uh and he got
38:58
smashed by the plants. The plants like
39:00
reached up and like smashed him in
39:02
little pieces because they were like,
39:03
"He's going to kill us. We got to stop
39:05
him." But that didn't help them. It
39:07
actually made things worse because each
39:09
bit of him was still dedicated to that
39:12
whole process and kept doing it. And as
39:15
they wore down and got smaller and made
39:18
more of themselves and those were
39:19
smaller still, you ended up going like
39:22
almost exactly the opposite direction of
39:24
what we just talked about. But it's
39:26
almost so perfectly inverted that I
39:28
think you have to really look at it.
39:30
They got smaller and you could say they
39:34
even got squatter, but they also got
39:36
smarter, which is very similar to how
39:39
gnomes on Azeroth and are among the most
39:42
intelligent beings on the world. And
39:45
they're tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny. And they
39:47
have this tiny little build that is
39:49
almost exactly like if you starved a
39:51
dwarf for 5 years. So, it's skinny, but
39:54
it's tiny. And they're real smart. And
39:57
I've said this before. Everyone who's
39:59
watched the show knows I'm about to say
40:00
this. Orcs are that process.
40:04
>> Mhm.
40:04
>> Orcs are tiny little things compared to
40:09
everything else on Drraanor.
40:10
>> Everything native to Dr. Smartest.
40:13
>> Everything native to Drraanor. Although
40:14
again made by a Titan, so native in
40:17
quotes. But the whole process of life on
40:21
worlds seems to be rooted around
40:23
sometimes the planets develop some kind
40:25
of natural life like say elementals but
40:29
eventually titans come along and in
40:32
their reordering
40:34
change everything into something that
40:36
will reproduce itself in a more
40:38
efficient way. And it almost always ends
40:40
up with at least two or three different
40:43
body plans that it really likes. You've
40:46
got ogres on Drraanor. Ogres are the
40:49
bulky built like a dwarf but not not as
40:53
small as orcs who are slender. I and
40:59
that's really funny to call them
41:00
slender, but compared to like ogres,
41:03
yeah, they're slender and more
41:05
intelligent. And that's very much
41:07
dwarves and gnomes. Meanwhile, you've
41:10
got the native spirit energy of the
41:12
planet making things elfie
41:16
>> or larger. Like look at look at DGB bar.
41:18
>> Yeah. All of this stuff going back and
41:20
forth. It seems like there's the
41:22
difference. It's the the the symbiosis
41:25
between the Titanic programming on how
41:28
to create organic beings and the the
41:31
world soul itself, how it interacts with
41:34
that programming to make elfization.
41:38
It's like it's like the convergent force
41:40
of evolution is the spirit world itself.
41:43
It's thema coming through the world
41:46
because transcends Titan. It transcends
41:49
this reality. It is part of not just
41:51
this reality but every reality
41:54
contacting the Shadowlands wouldn't
41:55
exist without uh the Emerald Dream
41:57
wouldn't exist without none of it would.
41:59
Nothing in existence would exist without
42:02
and so you kind of see the processes
42:05
interacting and that's where convergence
42:07
in this system that is created by it
42:10
ultimately the first ones how it works
42:12
and how it can be disrupted.
42:14
>> I think I got to throw out one more
42:16
entity that we haven't talked about.
42:17
You're never going to talk about any
42:19
other questions this week.
42:20
>> I think people at home are fine with
42:22
that. Go ahead.
42:23
>> The one we haven't talked about is
42:24
dragons. Could are they native to
42:28
Azeroth? Could Azeroth be a dragon?
42:31
>> We don't think they are
42:32
>> a lot.
42:33
>> Yeah, we we talk about that a lot. We
42:34
don't think they are. We think that
42:35
they're elemental in nature because the
42:36
elemental affinities that they have.
42:39
>> Elemental then escaped to our plane and
42:41
then
42:42
>> Well, here's the thing.
42:43
>> Not necessarily escape. They may have
42:44
been seated.
42:46
>> Yeah. Well, the proto drakes, we've
42:47
already seen that they're extremely
42:49
elementally based, even more so than
42:51
just dragons. And dragons themselves are
42:53
elementally based, but the protodrakes,
42:55
>> we've seen that. We've also seen that
42:57
proto drakes are not the snarling
42:59
imbecile that the ones we saw in
43:02
Northend are. I I want to I want to also
43:04
just point out real quick that if we're
43:05
going to talk about dragons and proto
43:07
drakes, we have to talk about Drafier
43:10
because I don't think that's an accident
43:12
that Narion made them like that or made
43:14
them elfier.
43:16
>> He made them elfier, right? Like he even
43:18
their vis.
43:21
[laughter]
43:21
>> Yeah. So like like I don't think that
43:23
was an accident. I think that was by
43:25
design and I think that like Meltherion
43:29
knew what like here's the thing. Yeah.
43:32
Yeah, he was driven crazy by the
43:33
whisperings of a the, you know, the void
43:36
inside of it and the deep places of the
43:38
earth, but being put in charge of it, he
43:41
had an understanding of that evolution
43:43
that I don't think the others did,
43:44
right? Like he and he was willing to go
43:47
look and investigate that stuff a lot
43:49
further than they would too. More so
43:51
than the lifebinder. He did.
43:53
>> And the trogs are related to the to the
43:55
ones that live in uh I think you just
43:57
said the drug
43:57
>> bar. The drug bar from high mountain.
43:59
>> Drug bar and trogs are seem to be
44:00
related. Um, we don't there's no
44:02
derivative
44:04
thing that says they are, but they seem
44:06
related. And Drogbar, I mean, they
44:10
follow that pattern. They're bulky
44:12
>> because they're big, but they're squat.
44:14
They are like squares. They are very
44:17
similar to if you take a if you take a
44:19
dwarf's body plan and just scale it up.
44:21
>> Yeah.
44:22
>> You know, and what do they do? They go
44:23
around underground digging tunnels all
44:25
the time. That's their favorite way to
44:27
move around the world. Um, and he
44:29
enslaved them. He did
44:31
>> and used them as slaves for a very long
44:32
time. I think he was studying that and I
44:36
think we get that by you if you go to
44:37
his layer uh it very
44:40
>> Oh yeah. You you go to a vernest there
44:43
is even worse. Yeah.
44:44
>> Yeah. You go to you Blackwing layer. You
44:46
go to Blackwing Descent. Uh
44:48
>> you go to actually Narian's Lair. Yeah.
44:50
>> You know in in Legion you you see more
44:53
of it more of the experimentation. You
44:55
go to Verest and it's like it's like a
44:57
lab. It's like a mad scientist's summer
44:59
home. Uh, it's kind of crazy. So, yeah,
45:02
I think I think dragons are really
45:04
interesting in that we can't be
45:06
absolutely sure, but we do know also
45:08
with with dragons that they're very
45:11
sensible. They're very sensitive to the
45:12
void, especially one of them.
45:14
>> They're very sensitive to energy.
45:16
>> Yeah. But specifically what happened
45:18
with one of them where he got himself
45:20
some old god juice mixed in with his
45:21
normal stuff.
45:22
>> Yeah. Gacron.
45:24
>> Yeah. When Gacron was being he was being
45:26
changed by by tier. How do we think Tier
45:30
was doing that?
45:31
>> Oh yeah, and don't forget Tier is air
45:33
quote back now. Uh there's going to be
45:36
some really interesting conversations
45:37
about his experimentations on dragons.
45:39
Let's let's not mince words on that one.
45:41
>> Oh yeah, absolutely. And that but the
45:43
thing is is that if if we look at the
45:46
other things that the the Titans and
45:48
Titan Forged made and were made by Tier
45:51
himself as a Titan watcher is part of
45:54
that process. He was created by and
45:57
shaped by
45:58
>> the the Titans and their plan for
46:01
existence. He's made out of metal for
46:04
for Pete's sake. You know, as you look
46:06
at him and you think about what is it
46:08
like when a protore who is an elemental
46:11
being is changed by a Titan watcher
46:16
>> into a dragon? What? And why is it that
46:19
out of the various dragons, at least two
46:22
of them, if not three, because one of
46:25
them actually, yeah, we had Yera and
46:28
>> all of them took all of them took alpha
46:30
Jason forms except for Nether.
46:33
>> Yeah, Malagos had an alpha Jason form.
46:35
>> He's a half elf.
46:36
>> Was Dormu clearly has an alpha Jason
46:38
form. Look at the guy.
46:39
>> He is a high elf. So is uh so is uh
46:41
Alexstrazza. Yera was a night elf. Uh,
46:45
now Theion was the only one that chose
46:47
to take a human form,
46:49
>> a evolution of Vikru. Just throwing that
46:52
out there.
46:53
>> Yeah. And that's interesting because
46:56
Tier made all of them, right?
46:58
>> Uhhuh. But he knew
47:00
>> who was in charge of experimenting on
47:01
that stuff to begin with, who we know
47:03
had archives full of this data that we
47:06
literally go to a library that and
47:10
laboratory that tier was in that we for
47:12
some reason haven't gone back to look at
47:14
the rest of the books and discs in
47:15
there. Why? Anyway, sorry. I'm a little
47:18
mad about that.
47:19
>> No, but I think one of the reasons we
47:20
haven't gone back to look at them yet is
47:22
because Tier was like, "You don't need
47:23
to see that." Clunk. Lock. Lock. Lock.
47:27
I'm just waiting.
47:28
>> Thanks for helping me, guys.
47:29
>> I'm waiting for Tier to come back into
47:32
the story because he's kind of like
47:34
looking. We We revive him and he kind of
47:36
looks around and he looks at the humans
47:37
around him and he's like, "Where are the
47:39
Vool?" Because they hadn't turned into
47:42
humans yet when he died.
47:43
>> No, they were already starting to,
47:45
right?
47:45
>> Yeah, they were starting to because he
47:47
took some of the decay the Reich who
47:49
were
47:50
>> changing down. He's not that he should
47:52
be confused about the humans, but he
47:54
should definitely be confused about the
47:55
lack of Reichool because when he left,
47:57
there was still some Reichool left.
47:59
>> Yeah, that that I think. Yes.
48:00
>> And but
48:02
>> I what's really funny about that is that
48:04
all of human culture and we are really
48:06
on a tangent now, but I'm going to have
48:08
to do this because you play a warrior
48:11
>> uh at one point you get the uh the
48:13
weapon that isn't troll. Uh you get the
48:16
weapon that is this giant troll killing
48:18
sword. um whose name I cannot remember
48:21
at the moment. I deeply apologize. But
48:24
when you get it, it's terrifying to
48:27
trolls. Like they run away from it
48:29
screaming because it's just it's been
48:31
used to destroy so many of them. But
48:34
when he gets it, uh he gets um I can't
48:38
remember his name now when he built
48:40
Thoran. Thank you. Uh Thoran built the
48:43
various walls uh that that helped
48:46
highlight the beginnings of the Arai
48:48
civilization. I knew he'd be going back
48:50
to the Arathi. When he got this sword,
48:53
he was told that this was a single blade
48:56
out of a set that their ancestors and it
48:59
was bigger than he was, but he still
49:01
managed to use it as a two-handed
49:03
weapon,
49:04
>> but it would it would have been a
49:05
one-handed sword for a Vikru.
49:06
>> Yeah, for a Vikru. But he took it to the
49:09
to the high elves when they were making
49:11
their deal. High elves looked at it and
49:12
goes, "Oh, I know what those
49:14
enchantments are." And they re-enchanted
49:17
it for him. Mhm.
49:19
>> High elf magic comes from the study of
49:22
the of the well of eternity.
49:24
>> Mhm.
49:25
>> Because it's originally the highborn who
49:28
are spending all their time staring into
49:30
the well of eternity to learn how to do
49:33
magic better. They weren't just looking
49:35
at it because it was pretty. They were
49:37
looking at it because proximity to it
49:39
helped you get better at magic. I want
49:42
to now swing over to the no to the
49:44
goblins. How did they get smarter? by
49:47
exposure to kashmite.
49:49
>> Yeah. Powdered kajmite put in their
49:52
drinks. And when that happened, they
49:55
became what they are now, but they had
49:58
been changed by experimentation
50:00
by a titan forged
50:03
named Mamir. Mamir didn't just make the
50:07
gnome, he made the goblin. And then they
50:10
got exposed to something that we know
50:13
binds both void and you know for lack of
50:17
a better word light. Kajimeite can
50:19
stabilize them so they can be used in
50:22
weapons and it comes from underneath the
50:25
ground cuz it's dug up in mine. I really
50:28
think we're going to find out at some
50:29
point that kajumite is like an it's like
50:31
an isotope of of uh both azerite and
50:36
like the just you know sarinite like
50:38
void stuff. I think it's when you get
50:41
kajamite it serves as a binding agent
50:44
for either of them because it is both of
50:46
them. And I want to again now swing back
50:51
to what we're talking about where the
50:53
well of eternity versus the Titanic
50:56
order plan. It's the same thing just
50:58
with different forces.
50:59
>> Mhm.
51:00
>> And I think Kajimite could work on on
51:02
those forces too because those forces
51:04
are order and raw chaos.
51:06
>> But I also want to point out too real
51:08
quick that uh we've seen goblins get
51:10
bigger. Not
51:12
>> not not in the hobgoblin form. Hobgoblin
51:15
form. No, they've just gotten bigger.
51:18
>> Like, let's let's look at Giwix.
51:20
He's huge. There are others that are way
51:24
larger than a normal goblin as well.
51:26
Again, that elongation that that sort of
51:29
and what are they all exposed to? You're
51:30
saying, but also, we know that Gwick's
51:33
had a had Azerite for a very long time.
51:37
We don't know how long he's had it. We
51:39
don't know if he just kind of got
51:41
bigger, got taller because I guess the
51:43
joke is that he's the the fat cat like
51:45
executive. I get that. But he's
51:48
>> he's like two heads taller than the next
51:49
largest goblin.
51:51
>> Yeah. But now think about this when
51:52
you're talking about that.
51:54
>> Other forces do this, too. Fell can make
51:58
you swell up.
51:59
>> Yeah.
51:59
>> It can make you taller. It can give you
52:02
huge fangs. Void has all sorts of weird
52:05
effects on things when they're exposed.
52:06
Sometimes they grow tentacles. Sometimes
52:08
they get bigger. Um, there's a lot of
52:12
these cosmic forces. We've only seen
52:14
some of them, but we know, and Eric, I
52:16
saw you lighting up a little bit ago and
52:18
I feel like we've talked a lot over you,
52:20
so I want to like now swing to you and
52:22
say, you know, you What's your reaction
52:24
to this battling we're doing?
52:25
>> I mean, I think it all I think it all
52:27
makes sense. What are goblins if not an
52:29
elfized version of something that looked
52:32
less elfy than a goblin? You know, yeah,
52:35
if Cas is doing the same thing as Well
52:37
of Eternity and elongating the ears and
52:39
making the head shape the same,
52:41
>> aren't we? We're pretty much sure that
52:42
pygmies in Azeroth are related to
52:44
goblins, right? Like some pygmy like
52:46
ancestor.
52:47
>> We we think so
52:49
>> without DNA tests. That's what that's
52:51
>> obviously, but if you look at a goblin
52:54
like all the stuff you can look at in
52:55
say a high elves, night elves have this
52:58
go big ears. Goblins have big ears.
53:01
Bigger than a pygmy. Goblins are
53:02
absolutely bigger than a pygmy. And
53:05
what's really weird about that is that
53:07
it makes me then go and look at the fact
53:08
that if you could take a trogue and use
53:12
titan forces to make a smaller, more
53:16
socially adept grumbl
53:20
are just like the grummels are like the
53:22
goblins, like the gnomes of shrogs. So
53:24
it's the other direction.
53:26
>> Yeah. There. But even then, like you you
53:29
have to that's like a purpose-built
53:31
forced evolution
53:33
>> that
53:34
>> But as you pointed out, do they know
53:36
like do they not have programming that
53:38
they don't know they have?
53:39
>> That and that's the thing like I I think
53:41
that's I think that's part of the grand
53:42
design of the the first ones, right?
53:45
like bringing this all back to and the
53:48
reason that I I I refer to the universe
53:50
and in like terms of programming is
53:54
again like there's been these little
53:55
hints of it that the universe is
53:57
supposed to be on rails and Shadowlands
54:00
did nothing to dissuade me from that
54:01
that point of view especially when you
54:03
look at the jailer and to me it reminded
54:06
me a lot of and not to throw in another
54:09
thing in here a lot of Tron right where
54:12
the program does what it's supposed to
54:14
do until it realizes it's a program. And
54:18
the jailer, Zval, the original arbiter,
54:22
realized that he was a program and then
54:25
started learning what the purpose was of
54:28
his programming and his air quote
54:31
siblings and started railing against it.
54:34
Right? So, like the rest of them and and
54:37
I'm going to say this with the Titans as
54:39
well. We don't know what Sargeras knows
54:42
at this point. We haven't sat and talked
54:44
with him. We haven't had a conversation
54:46
with him. We don't know if he
54:48
understands the same thing that Zal did
54:51
that we're just on this like supposed to
54:54
be a predetermined path that we're all
54:56
operating on this sort of like primal
54:59
programming. And that's what broke him
55:02
that the death of a world soul. That's
55:04
what broke him. That's what like made
55:07
him realize programming
55:10
that that he didn't realize that they
55:11
were all doing beforehand. And again,
55:14
coming back to Titans or order and all
55:15
this other stuff. What is order but a
55:17
set of instructions. That's really all
55:20
it is. When you order stuff on your desk
55:22
and you put them in specific places,
55:25
you're imposing your will, your
55:26
instructions on that that chaos. It's
55:30
>> I got to ask you a question because
55:31
going along with this you what you just
55:33
said I want to flash back to a to a
55:35
talking head of Joe popping up on the
55:37
bottom of the screen going what is order
55:39
if not a series of instructions and then
55:42
I turn to that image of Joe and go what
55:45
is domination magic if not for a series
55:47
of instructions that won't let you not
55:49
execute it. Yeah. Like,
55:51
>> go ahead, Eric. I saw you.
55:52
>> Yeah, I see Eric lighting up.
55:53
>> No, I'm I'm I'm my wheels are spinning,
55:56
too. I'm agreeing. I think that a lot of
55:58
the big players that we've seen in the
56:02
entire World of Warcraft are talking
56:04
about this big picture program, this
56:07
world is a prison, uh, the order of
56:10
everything, like kind of raging against
56:12
this big picture. And so, it seems like
56:14
some of them think there's a problem
56:16
with it. And maybe Zalatath is either in
56:20
on that or thinking of that too. Like
56:22
that the the the way things are isn't
56:25
what is either a supposed to be or what
56:28
they think it's supposed to be.
56:29
>> And think about Algolon for a second
56:31
because Algolon is the best example of a
56:33
Titanic servant who realized that the
56:36
Titans might have been wrong.
56:38
>> Yeah.
56:38
>> He's like, you've triumphed against
56:40
cosmically calculated odds. You you
56:43
shouldn't have been able to do this. And
56:45
we did it again when we killed Argus.
56:48
Gargus wasn't supposed to be able to
56:50
die.
56:51
>> It's like not by our hands.
56:53
>> It's like going to delete a line of code
56:55
from your program and the program just
56:57
says no and it just unddes itself. It's
57:00
like I made you I this isn't what's
57:02
supposed to happen. It's when you you
57:04
like you go and look at the notes
57:06
someone left behind on the on the
57:08
program when they started it and the
57:10
notes are like okay this is these are
57:12
notes from the 15th uh revision of this.
57:15
If you don't understand why this does
57:16
this neither do I [laughter] like why
57:19
does why does killing uh Kathun shut
57:23
down the auction house? I don't know.
57:26
you know, we've tried to fix this, but
57:28
you know, in the end, the system has
57:30
been cluted to deal with all this weird
57:33
stuff that was they didn't see coming.
57:35
[clears throat]
57:36
>> And now,
57:38
that's what I want to know about like
57:39
Dranor. So, Agramar shows up and there's
57:42
plants everywhere and he's like, "Ah,
57:44
this is no good." And so, he creates
57:46
Grond and he's like, "That ought to do
57:48
it." And he leaves. And then Grond
57:51
breaks over and over again until
57:53
colossals and ogres and orcs. Would he
57:55
come back and look at it and go, "What
57:58
happened here?" Or would he go, "Yep, as
58:01
I expected." Yeah, exactly. Is it like
58:03
that's the programming of a of a gr
58:06
split up into orcs? That's just what
58:08
happens. It's just I I don't know.
58:11
>> I do what I I set it up to do this
58:13
thing. It has to do whatever it has to
58:15
do to do that thing. If that means
58:17
making lots of little ones, you know,
58:19
we've done it before.
58:21
>> It's just how our process works.
58:23
>> Yeah. And I we heard what do we hear? Uh
58:25
living it's living outside the cycle
58:26
existing outside the cycle. Maybe the
58:28
cycle is everything that's supposed to
58:30
be on this program and the things
58:32
outside the cycle are trying to break
58:35
it.
58:35
>> Yeah, it there's there's a lot here and
58:38
this is a whole other set of rabbit
58:41
holes that we can probably explore in a
58:43
full episode dedicated entirely toward
58:45
to it, which we very well may. But I'm
58:48
going to have to get final thoughts here
58:50
cuz I think we're running out of of
58:51
time.
58:52
>> Yeah, absolutely. So, I'll get your
58:54
final thoughts on this. Uh, we'll go
58:57
with Eric first.
58:58
>> Well, getting back to the question, if
59:00
Azeroth does have an avatar after all
59:02
this time, no matter what it is, it's
59:04
going to be a little bit strange to have
59:07
that possibly like walking around and
59:08
talking to us and then go past the world
59:11
soul saga onto our next adventure like
59:13
with Azeroth or because Azeroth told us
59:16
to. So, I don't know. I'm just trying to
59:19
picture it. Matt,
59:20
>> I wanted to have Kalindor's revenge.
59:23
>> Yeah,
59:24
>> that's a cool looking sword. I think it
59:26
should get to have that. In a more more
59:28
serious note, I think it's they've said
59:31
in the past before when when people who
59:33
don't work there anymore, used to work
59:35
there, have said things that would
59:37
indicate Azeroth was never going to
59:38
actually wake up.
59:40
>> That's exactly where I was going to go.
59:42
>> Yeah. And I think that might still be
59:46
the case. In which case, Azeroth will
59:48
never wake up and we'll never actually
59:50
in a weird sort of way though. The thing
59:52
I keep thinking about is this. What
59:54
would a what does a human look like to
59:57
an amoeba? Like we are made of all these
59:59
cells that would look vaguely like an
1:00:02
amoeba to an amoeba, but they're
1:00:04
specialized and they're all over the
1:00:06
place and yet they do things together
1:00:10
like as if directed by one will. Imagine
1:00:12
if Azeroth is that with everything that
1:00:16
lives on it.
1:00:17
>> So that the planet will never actually
1:00:19
have to get up into a Titan uh Avatar
1:00:22
because we are the body of its Avatar.
1:00:25
We are as that is exactly what I was
1:00:28
going to say. And going back to the
1:00:31
stuff with Algolon, going back with the
1:00:33
stuff that we've seen time and time
1:00:35
again, the stuff that we are not
1:00:37
supposed to be able to do. I will pause
1:00:40
it once again. As I have said multiple
1:00:42
times over the years, we are Azeroth's
1:00:45
final form. We are what the first ones
1:00:48
wanted to happen. An entity that can
1:00:52
harness all the primal forces of the
1:00:55
universe, fed by a world that can
1:00:59
harness all of the elemental forces of
1:01:02
the universe and empowers us to defy
1:01:05
fate, logic, and programming in a way
1:01:09
that no other cosmic entity can. I often
1:01:13
say that we are dumb adventurers. We
1:01:15
are. We we make mistakes. We do a bunch
1:01:18
of really dumb stuff. But lately, we've
1:01:21
gotten better about that. We've sort of
1:01:23
evolved and understood a little bit more
1:01:26
about the planet we're on. I don't think
1:01:28
Azeroth ever wakes up. I don't think
1:01:31
Azeroth actually needs to have a final
1:01:35
form because I think Azeroth will
1:01:38
continue to empower us into
1:01:40
purposebuilt,
1:01:42
purpose evolved forms to accomplish what
1:01:46
needs to be done. And I don't think
1:01:48
Azeroth will ever fully understand that
1:01:50
that is what Azeroth is doing. So that's
1:01:53
my final thoughts. I do want to end it
1:01:56
there and thank everybody for joining
1:01:58
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