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Matt and Joe explore the possibility that Faerin Lothar of Hallowfell is being set up as a love interest for Anduin, the questionable motivations of the High Heavens and Burning Hells post-Diablo 3, and the parallels between the way the Diablo and WoW franchises approach storytelling.
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[Music]
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hello and welcome to lore watchat Round Table free form discussion about lur and our favorite media I'm your host Joe
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Perez one of several lore Focus folks from blizzard watch and I've got my stupendous co-host with me today Matt
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Rossy how you doing today Matt I am okay let's do the show all right I don't want to risk
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anything it's been a weird day for technology here in the recording studio and by recording studio I mean our
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houses I don't know you if you were if you listened to last week's episode of the blizzard watch podcast uh there was
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a technical difficulty where apparently my voice decided that it was going to bottom out uh everywhere just for like a
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3 minute period of time and then we had the same thing right as we were starting this recording so a little Peak behind the curtain but I'm sure you don't want
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to hear about that uh instead I think you want to hear what we have to talk about today which are questions from you
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are wonderful listeners so if you have questions for this or any of our podcasts be sure to
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send those into podcast blizzardwatch dcom specify the show that it is for in the subject line as well as any special
1:10
pronunciation of your name uh if you want to hit us up on Discord we have two channels set aside for you we have one
1:17
which is just the Q and podcast questions Channel open for everyone the rules apply there as well for the whole
1:23
subject and what show it's for and the pronunciations of your name if you are a patreon subscriber however there is a
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patron q and podcast questions Channel where we tend to look there first for our questions as a way of saying thank
1:35
you for helping us keep the lights on and if none of those are good for you and you happen to be a patreon subscriber you can also submit those
1:41
questions on patreon directly and we will be sure to get those into the show as we can but without further Ado let's
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start with one from scribbl or scribble Lee thank you you actually put the pronunciation in there and I was just
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being a fool and didn't read it h go me hey lur so appreciative that you selected and answered my language
2:02
question recently and also would love an episode where you noodle on languages in wow I love Linguistics and conlangs one
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day one day Matt and I will go into a deep dive about this stuff because I know Matt and I have had plenty of discussions about that in tabletop games
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and I absolutely have no doubt that we can tear apart uh the World of Warcraft
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uh my question today is based on the story presented so far in the war within
2:27
do you see fair fair being set up as a love interest or andwin and if so how
2:33
would you envision that story going and what would some of the ramifications be I think this is a very popular uh Theory
2:41
going around uh a lot of people seem to really be latching on to that and think that she is going to be the love
2:46
interest I am very curious though what do you think Matt I mean there's a
2:51
difference between do I think it's going to happen and do I think it's a good idea um well let's start with well let's
2:58
start with the first one do you think it's going to happen it feels like it's and it's right now I'd say it's at about
3:05
a 65% chance and it's inching towards inexorable inevitability uh yeah I I think there
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are ways that they might be planning to to subvert it but I do see like why
3:17
people think this is likely and I I don't disagree with their interpretations of it let me put it that
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way okay and do you think it's a good idea absolutely not all right let's
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let's start the the door has been open uh so here's the thing it's not because I don't like faren I love the character
3:34
yeah but but um but I think in general
3:39
uh I first off I find it dicey to introduce his character just to be the love interest for another character um I
3:45
didn't like it with Agra and I felt like it caused Agra to get really shoved to the side once her her role was
3:51
established we have not seen a lot of Agra since and it's one of those things that really bothers me um I don't I
3:57
don't like that I wouldn't like it for any character uh and secondly Fen has had such an
4:03
interesting story that I don't I don't want her to just become you know I'm
4:08
here to heal andwin with the power of positivity and now he can go on and do his King stuff and I will be in the
4:14
background being you know anduin's girlfriend for the rest of the story I don't I don't want that I if anything I
4:20
wouldn't mind if andwin retired and went to live on a farm somewhere while Fen went on to have adventures and he could
4:26
just be fen's boyfriend uh because we've had a lot of andwin and whilst I like
4:32
the voice actor who does andwin and I'm even willing to say that at times I've liked andwin as a character he has
4:38
generally at best been a b tier for me if you know what I'm saying whereas faren has potential to go up to S rank
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and I don't want to see that potential lost as anduin's girlfriend that that's kind of my whole thing on it yeah so and
4:52
I agree with you I think that if she was only introduced in order to be a love
4:59
interest that's just bad um or at least suboptimal at best like if we're giving
5:04
it the best it's boring we've seen it a million times uh it's happened on tons of TV shows and comics and and video
5:11
games where a new characters introduced specifically to be just that a love interest I think she is potentially one
5:18
of the more interesting recent additions to the the game World at least in my
5:24
opinion um I think she offers an interesting New Perspective and she's probably the first person to have a I
5:33
want to I don't want to call it non- devotional cuz they are definitely devoted to the light but a different way
5:38
of thinking about the light since Von was introduced um right so not to go
5:46
completely off topic but I think it's interesting because when the light was first really introduced into the game uh
5:51
it wasn't the light uh if you want to go back and I think it's relevant since they're releasing the original Warcraft
5:56
games as uh you know updated res models now the original institution of religion
6:02
was essentially just Catholicism and versus Satanism uh I'm generalizing it
6:07
was a little more fantasied up than that but that's really what it boiled down to yeah it was like take the um take
6:13
historical religion file the serial numbers off of it and make demons real that was pretty much what you had yeah
6:20
and then you introduce the light as another aspect of that later on where you basically take the even further file
6:27
the Christianity off of it and sort of Let It blossom into its own thing which
6:33
helped spawn an entire cosmology cuz let's be honest it did um until Von came
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along what the light was in Warcraft 3 was what the light always was even when
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we got World of Warcraft even when we were dealing going to the the tomb of uh
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uh why can't I remember his name Paladin oh which one the one that uh AR arthus killed you mean I mean there's the one
7:00
that arthus killed there's few of those do you mean Uther yes thank you I don't know why I could not remember Uther my
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brain I didn't know you me does he mean Uther does he mean you know that other one there's at least two that I can come
7:12
up with but but even okay so even then with uh the the uther's tomb and going
7:18
there and being able to interact with the ghost of Uther so to speak or sliver off their their its mortal vestage the
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light was still the vehicle with which that was happening but it wasn't really flushed doubtfully as Su its own thing
7:31
and then Von came along and gave it a personification that it hadn't had
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before it was a cosmic entity it was a force it was something that was granting
7:42
him visions of the future it was something that helped guide him to save his people it was something that was
7:47
more than just I'm going to cast a healing wave now and call it good um and
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it's been sort of at that level even with the addition of like Zer and a lot of the other stuff that's come out it
7:58
all sort of fits still in with that and now comes Fen who has a new way of looking at the light and it is much more
8:07
I don't know if holistic is the right term for it it's a lot more there's a lot of difference to it
8:13
there's a lot of deference to it as a an entity as a not just a tool not just a
8:18
thing that has a will of its own and not something that can just you know abandon you right like it's one of those lessons
8:25
that she teaches andn where it's like the light doesn't abandon you the light doesn't really you know that's not what
8:33
it cares it doesn't really think about it like that it will be there when you call upon it you just have to call upon
8:39
it you have to unblock yourself and then he does and she's teaching him not just
8:46
about the light in this instance she's giving him life lessons that the people around him can't Jana is just coming off
8:53
of being completely emotionally like devastated over the course of years and
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is now like r with new uh responsibility as uh the the the new uh Lord admiral of
9:08
the cultan you have uh genon greyman who
9:13
just recently started really developing his emotions beyond that which is just
9:18
rage and revenge terellian is just in this expansion starting to come to terms
9:23
with his own emotions and thought processes on things Teran is a thous
9:29
years removed from the kind of struggles that anyone is having oh you've lived a thousand years and you've been bathed in
9:35
the light from most of that time it's it's you don't have doubts about it it
9:41
comes when you call it it's there to help you it's your sword and your Shield he doesn't have doubt so how is he gonna
9:48
help the and one with his doubt uh his other big Confidant is uh for now no
9:53
longer a diamond dwarf but has been a speaker of Azeroth for the last uh how
9:59
long in game 15 years 10 uh Le no I wouldn't say 15 uh but definitely 10 10
10:06
at least about a decade in game terms right uh since C since the cataclysm
10:12
happened uh you have so and he's dealing with his own stuff dealing with getting his family back and everything that's
10:18
happening with the dwarves which is not insant yeah plus he's never really been a paladin no or priest and correct and
10:27
even when andin was in iron for Forge learning it wasn't with Magny that he
10:32
was doing it Magny put him with the head of the priesthood of the dwarves right I can't remember the father's name but
10:39
yeah but he also had that um the guard that they assigned to him that he was really friendly with who ended up
10:44
getting getting cacked um the other thing is the way fren's relationship with the light works is she does
10:51
something that others don't do um it's personal yes and it's it's personal in a
10:56
way where she doesn't treat the light as this unknowable alien force of power she
11:02
treats the light as something that is inside her that everyone is a little piece of light everyone is like a is a
11:08
candle and you have to if you if you ever feel the need to call upon it you need to sit there and cultivate that
11:16
connection with that little candle inside yourself and Let It Roar into flame and it's that level of just how
11:24
can your light you're still here you're still alive obviously the light is not has not abandoned you or that wouldn't
11:30
be the case you know the light is the light is just something we all have and we and we're all involved with to to
11:37
faren I'm not saying that this is how that works in cosmological terms I'm just saying fen's approach is this is a
11:43
personal thing the light the light can no more abandon you than you can abandon you in fact it's it can't even more than
11:50
you can't because you can actually abandon yourself you can throw away everything you've been and become
11:56
someone new but the light can't do that the light will always be Illuminating you so there's that's a that's an
12:03
interesting aspect of her character um and she's been through some some bip um let's just I was going to say the actual
12:09
word but I'm not gonna um she's been through a lot and like when you look at
12:15
her she's lost her eye she's lost her hand she's like strapping that that she
12:21
has a a prosthesis that she uses to to strap that thing onto her arm and she
12:27
doesn't even want it improve like someone was like yeah we're going to I'm totally going to fix it up I've got all these ideas and she's like no I
12:34
just want it to do what it does I'm very happy with its current use as thing to keep a shield on I don't want whatever
12:41
you're talking about I'm comfortable with it as it is and that's a big part of her identity is that she has made
12:47
this thing this loss into a shield it protects her so out of all that she has
12:52
a very different relationship with people and with the light and she tends to be she's extremely compassionate
12:58
through experience she's not compassionate just because she's compassionate she's compassionate because she has grown up at this place
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keep in mind that she was basically like the only kid on the boat yep like she was essentially like a stowaway and
13:12
she's kind of grown up around these people who are all devout but they're not devout the way she is because she
13:18
has had this experience and it is interesting character it's one of the things I'd really hate to see get lost
13:24
yeah and I think that's what I what I'm trying to get is I think her her value right now as far as like if it's more
13:30
than just you know A love interest is really this perspective she brings at
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anduin needs and it's a lot of finding yourself right like that's the message
13:41
that she sort of portrays and a lot of it has to do with like you said that experience that you know she was the
13:47
only kid on the boat she's growing up underground with the survivors of what happened to them uh dealing with a
13:55
lifetime of essentially War uh with the nerubians uh because that's what happened there uh
14:02
and then dealing with the dark horrors of of night and now dealing with the active black blood and all that happens
14:09
with there like there's a reason she's a staple at the orphanage uh it's not just because she's you know that's what you
14:16
do that's not just because it's her duty but it's because of how she found herself and helping others do that she's
14:23
a guide and a confidant and if that blossoms into something more later on down the road that fine but I don't
14:30
think it should be her primary value I do it's I I totally agree that you can
14:35
have a love interest character and that the they could be love interests for each other it doesn't have to be she's
14:42
his love interest they can be each other's love interests that's fine uh I don't have a problem with that my
14:49
problem is just if you introduce this character I don't want her to exist just to be EX's girlfriend just like I really
14:56
feel like we need to get Agra back because we have not done her justice and there's a lot of other female characters
15:02
I could say this about um yeah yeah and I think that's that's the other thing too like and and funnily enough I was
15:08
thinking about this ayia and uh trellion have probably one of the healthiest
15:13
relationships of all the NPCs in the game despite their you know vast
15:20
divergences yeah vast Divergence right like and I think that's really highlighted this expansion of no matter
15:26
how far apart they went like they come back and like they've again stay do the stay and while and a listen whenever you
15:31
see the bubble especially with those two in proximity to each other um because it's a lot of reconciling what happened
15:39
and a lot of recognizing why the other one chose what they did and there's a lot of it's a lot of I don't want to say
15:46
codependency is not the right term um no but there's a respect that they each have for the other that allows them to
15:52
accept that they are different they have different they have different approaches they have different belief systems but
15:59
they love each other and respect the other's opinion yeah and that means that when terellian sees that all is doing
16:06
something that for anybody else he would probably be immediately offended by it he's willing to stop and listen because
16:12
he knows who she is and in her in her way she offers him the same courtesy she
16:18
understands that in a lot of ways the two people she loves most in the world are both divergently opposed to her mhm
16:25
like she loves her son who is practically his father and she loves his
16:30
father and those people because they are not remotely like her they has forced
16:36
her to to always examine what she is doing what she is thinking what she is feeling so yeah I I think that they're
16:42
an interesting couple for that reason I think that they were not nearly as strong before World of Warcraft frankly
16:48
uh World of Warcraft did a lot to make them interesting characters uh not that they weren't interesting before but but
16:53
there was very much mostly in books you didn't see it in the games at all and so I think that in terms of what their
17:00
characterization is like you get a lot of good bits between them because it's building on that history for that matter
17:06
I think that Jana and THS were never going to get together thing is actually one of the most interesting
17:12
relationships in World of Warcraft in the warcraft Cannon because it is clear
17:18
that they are attracted to each other maybe not like we're not gonna we're dating or anything or we never really
17:23
wanted to but you know you remind me of this person who is so important to me
17:28
but you're not really her and for her part he is assigned to her that she has
17:34
made the right decisions that in the end her her willingness to trust people even people that ended up doing horrible
17:41
things to her wasn't entirely wasted like it's not all orc's fault what one
17:46
orc did and she's at a place now where she she's learned that lesson and he's
17:52
kind of the symbol of it but at the same time you know he he's there when they need each other they're there and I like
17:57
that about them but it took him a long time to get there it wasn't always very good in the game um so that's another
18:03
reason why I'm a little I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of just introducing a love interest to be a love interest yeah and I think that's where
18:09
the strength of this character really lies is I think and to get to the root of the question what the ramifications
18:15
be how do we see it going if they do proceed with this like I think they're going to uh I think it needs to be on
18:22
organic development of the relationship it needs to be something where anduin is
18:28
himself finds himself and then the two interact after that because that's the
18:33
other thing that hasn't been finished yet is that anduin yes he can call in the light again but he hasn't really
18:39
he's it's been a theme since be before the storm it's been a theme uh in many
18:46
of the books uh especially in mine Rose last books that she wrote where you know
18:52
he's sitting I will always remember the scene he's sitting at the tavern gives a different name he's just learning about
18:58
the people around him but it was very apparent that andwin still figuring out who he is and he doesn't want to be his
19:05
dad but he also can't not be his dad he has to find his own path that that accomplishes what he wants to do as well
19:12
as keep you know the the human uh civilization intact and well as defend
19:18
azoth as well as deal with all of his past traumas the boy's got so much to
19:23
deal with it's not fair but he needs to find himself and if he finds himself and
19:29
faen is still there and they interact after that point and it's not a case of
19:34
she saves him and he's smitten with her because of it then that's fine right
19:40
like another way to put this is that Mr Miyagi and and does not get together with Daniel you know so if she's just
19:47
there to be his magical savior um then their relationship shouldn't go anywhere
19:52
even close to a relationship it should just be she's like a mentor who taught him if you want to have a romantic
19:58
relationship characters they need to be equals MH like not when I say equals I
20:03
don't mean they need to all be exactly like a checklist I just mean that they need to each bring their own thing to it
20:09
um and I think that that could absolutely happen it is not where they are right now yeah and we have plenty of
20:14
expansion left we have plenty of interaction that's going to happen and judging have two more expansions on the
20:20
I was just gonna say even regardless of what happens here if it doesn't have uh a payoff at the very least I think that
20:27
because of fair character who she is and the Empire that she is a part of they
20:32
will have a role going into Midnight at the very least and that story may continue to pick up steam and develop
20:39
there uh yeah we we got plenty of plenty of Road left here on this travel I think
20:44
but it will be interesting to see because I think it in a lot of ways she is probably one of my favorite
20:50
characters that they've introduced to the game in a long long time I just I love the way she's written I love the
20:56
way she's voiced and I really do not want her getting relegated to Agra status cuz that would nothing would make
21:03
me angrier I mean for a degree I remember when when we were wandering around and I remember we were talking on
21:09
on a different low watch and I said something to you and you stopped and F no no and then you went and looked and
21:15
you were like oh my god well I'm like they're all half elves have you noticed that they're all half elves and he was
21:20
like you were like what do you mean I'm like go look at them they're all half elves and they are they're all half
21:25
elves every single one of them has a half elf model not an elf model not a human model they have the ears that uh
21:32
what's his name blue guy loves sunw Wells why can't calagos they have the
21:37
years that calos is model had blue guy loves sunwell what's his name God I'm
21:43
getting old calos yeah so they so I remember that thinking this is really interesting that they have there they're
21:49
to the point where they're not they are practically their own people yeah they're not yeah which is great because
21:54
it makes like can't you the possibilities of going over there of
22:00
going to wherever they are and seeing what they've been doing for at least hundreds if not thousands of years you
22:07
know what I mean like just wow I want to see this and it's really awesome how well we've gotten this taste of it in
22:14
this expansion and and that it even makes sense why they're there and what they're doing so yeah I I I definitely
22:20
want to see more of faren I want to see more of her interacting with the place she's from that she barely remembers
22:26
because she left it as a child and has hasn't been back since you know there's there's a lot to that um it's kind of
22:33
similar to when Chen and uh his niece whose name is escaping me at the moment despite the fact that she was playable
22:38
in Heroes of the Storm uh when they went yeah thank you Lely when they went to Pandaria they were pandarin but they'
22:45
never been to Pandaria they were from the wandering aisle so yeah it was it
22:51
was like this there they could be a POV character while also being a bridge I think Fen absolutely has that potential
22:57
and she's just interesting she's an interesting person she's kind of like the fact that she is ex you know
23:04
extremely devout in her faith in the light but not at all judgmental makes
23:09
her a standout in portrayals of religious characters in video games because half the time they're either
23:15
sanctimonious or outright fanatical and she's neither and I I I do not want to
23:21
see her turned into so and so's girlfriend yeah agreed uh but I think we're going to move on to the next
23:27
question here um the this one comes from sebr uh since there's a Diablo 4 kick in
23:34
the show uh are the realm Walkers we fight in the season the same type of monster we fight in pandemonium in
23:41
Diablo II yes they are it's straight up they there
23:46
it's oneto one the model is almost exactly the same there's lore things in the game saying that these ones are just
23:52
ones that Maisto is control over they are the same things I don't think I've seen that yet the the L thing for misto
23:58
so yeah it's in one of the it's in one of the uh books you find on the way no they are absolutely categorically
24:06
unequivocably the same all right think that's a pretty definitive answer we don't get very many of those on the show
24:12
I have nothing to add to it's very rare usually it's like you know well this time nope same thing there's no
24:19
doubt all right uh so uh this next one comes from da Kaiju uh my current belief
24:26
is that since the events of Diablo I and R the High Heavens and burning Hells are freaked out about Humanity finally
24:32
coming into its own and deciding it's had enough of both sides inter interference hence the reason the High
24:37
Heavens have walled themselves off and the burning Hells getting more aggressive about corrupting Humanity to
24:43
their side thoughts yes time it was a joke oh yeah there's
24:49
there's a lot more to talk about here but go ahead no I I I I'm not trying to interrupt you I I just thought it was a
24:55
good time to make that joke like let's just pretend we're going to do this with every no I think there's certainly the
25:01
existence of Nephilim has always been something that has made the High Heavens
25:06
uncomfortable to the point where when they discovered the existence of sanctuary it was a close call on whether
25:12
or not they were going to wipe it out and the only reason they didn't was because ties go to the like ties with
25:20
the the aerus council go with the defeat of the proposal you can't just tie you
25:25
have to actually win the vote to do the thing so when tyrio was like no he
25:31
basically caused a tie and because of that tie they could they you know inar not narius uh the other really grumpy
25:39
one has a big spear perus thank you I can never remember anyone's names why do they all have ey names um imperius
25:45
wanted to just blow the place up straight up just let's kill everything let's let's take this thing down to
25:50
bedrock uh and you know he got you know he thought it would be him and tyel
25:55
voting together he he thought Malo would vote with him and in the end he didn't get that and he didn't get his destroy
26:02
the world and he was super grumpy about it like to this look when you see him every time you see him in Diablo I one
26:08
of the reasons he's so mad is he doesn't even think you should exist and there you are in heaven which is like you know
26:15
imagine thinking that thing is a horrible thing that shouldn't even exist it's a loathsome aberration and destruction and then it shows up and
26:21
saves you it's a little bit more understandable it's it's kind of like if you were fighting a shth and the Shag
26:27
was like no no I'm here to help help like you're you have multiple beaks you scream in the night go yeah but
26:33
still I don't want you guys to get destroyed I'm G I'm Gonna Save you you are an Abomination against all things
26:39
good what are you talking about you know it's like that so yeah the High Heavens
26:45
have always been uncomfortable with the Nephilim they're doubly uncomfortable even tyel was uncomfortable when he realized that the Nephilim that he was
26:52
following around in Diablo I was more powerful than him and more powerful than
26:57
any Archangel or Demon Lord because it had beaten both of them it had beaten
27:03
every Demon Lord fused into one and it had beaten an archangel who um renounced
27:09
his role and was using the power of all those demons at the same time as hisself
27:16
and and both of those lost to this one mortal who still was going to die someday and therefore would probably get
27:23
grumpy about that at some point and and want to make it not happen and I think that's the Crux of why the heavens are
27:29
uncomfortable with the Nephilim because they don't know what's worse the fact that some Nephilim don't seem to die or
27:36
that even if they do die you can't tell what's going to happen then they they break all the rules constantly and it's
27:43
it's disconcerting if you are a Heavenly being you think we we understand the rules by which creation should exist
27:48
under and you don't follow any of them what what is that for the demons I mean I want to let Joe talk so I'm going to
27:54
shut up here but I do have ideas about the demons but I am going to shut up so you can talk the I mean you can keep going but I mean I think we've talked
28:00
about this a little bit before I I don't know that just fear of the Nephilim is what's caused them to be walled off I
28:07
think that there's no we AB don't know yeah absolutely I agree with you on that we don't know but I think there's more to it than that I think there has to be
28:14
more to it than that um and the reason I think so is because and we talked about this on the regular podcast this was a
28:21
question that was answered in and we've talked about it here during our Diablo stff uh which highly go go back and read
28:27
watch the or listen to the Diablo 4 episodes if you can um you are looking
28:32
at dealing with just the aftermath of what happened in Diablo I and Reaper of Souls is probably occupying a lot of
28:40
their time the High Heavens were sieged right like they were not just uh you
28:45
know lightly attacked there was a massive attacked yeah it it was but I
28:51
mean and it wasn't just the Nephilim going up and like them destroying things cuz we did but how many angels were
28:58
Twisted how many Souls were warped the very fabric of reality that or or and
29:04
I'm air quoting reality here cu the High Heavens is a weird place just like the burning Hells are uh how much of that
29:10
was warped and shifted and corrupted or made different than what it was bodies
29:15
and souls being infused into pillars how much of the heavens when we were running through it looked just like the burning
29:21
Hells they're probably trying to deal with all of that too and then there's the other side of the coin and and we
29:28
talked about this a little bit Diablo died in the High Heavens we don't know
29:33
what that will do we know that angels can fall and become fallen angels and
29:38
become demons which means presumably they can be processed through the burning Hells for all we know an Arius
29:46
may come back as a demon after what happened in Diablo 4's storyline in fact it may be very likely who knows uh him
29:54
and Lilith may be reigning as demon king and queen at some point um see here's the thing though I did want to mention
29:59
this the last time you brought that up I will I will say this in order for a demon an angel to fall and become a
30:05
demon they have to be broken mentally tell me that he wasn't no I'm not saying he wasn't but I'm
30:10
saying Diablo wasn't broken mentally he wasn't or the opposite Diablo wasn't
30:16
uplifted Diablo didn't have any sense of what am I doing I could have been doing good things all this time no there's no
30:23
sign of the inverse for Diablo I therefore don't think he's going to come back through the crystal Arch because
30:30
the crystal Arch is there for essences that have essentially been purged like
30:35
we know that malel will come back to the crystal Arch even though he died in pandemonium even though he died
30:42
possessed of an evil object because at no point did he think what he was doing was evil or was he acting for Evil's
30:49
sake that's the difference that that's why I don't think that's why I don't think Diablo is coming back through the crystal Arch however I do think we have
30:56
to talk about the fact that fablo did incredible violence to the crystal Arch
31:02
to the point where at one point every Angel around you drops and their Armor
31:08
gets blown up and they're just gone they're incapable of of keeping their Essence in the forms they usually keep
31:15
we know they come back but there's a disruption so great that at one point you are it you are the only thing that
31:22
can even stand up to him there's nothing else imperious can't even try nobody can
31:28
try it's just you and I think that that is something we really have to talk
31:34
about in terms of what happens in heaven after Diablo Diablo's presence in heaven
31:39
is is like the ultimate insult it's it's something that if they were human it
31:45
would cause PTSD what does it do to beings that don't think that reality has only one
31:52
angel in all of Heaven thinks that there's such a thing as you know the ability to circumvent fate and it
31:58
ironically is the it's the one that's the Archangel of Fate because they know they can't see the nephilim's Fate so
32:05
these are beings that believe very heavily in fate if this thing happened it had to happen and how do they deal
32:11
with what they went through whether or not Diablo gets to come back through the crystal Arch I certainly think Diablo
32:17
introduced corruption to the crystal Arch what if angels start coming out of that thing half demon you know what if
32:24
the corruption just keeps spawning out of it can you even use it are there numbers even being replenished that that
32:30
was where I was going with it too that's the other side of the coin that we don't know we haven't interacted with an angel
32:35
since then aside from uh an Arius who who has been caught off this whole time
32:40
who has been caught off this whole time so we don't know if they're able to be reborn we don't know if the crystal Arch
32:46
is functioning we don't know if it's quasi functioning it's it's in a weird
32:52
spot for the Angels at this point that we just don't have enough information
32:57
and again it's just as likely that they're just dealing with all of this
33:05
more than anything else there's also something to mention in terms of what we've seen in Diablo 4 especially vessel
33:11
of hatred because we have seen that entities that are on the level of power of an angel or a demon can be created
33:18
out of people's opinions about some Dead Guy like when we we the spirit of um
33:26
akarat that we we deal with in the sorry guys it's spoilers but come on it's been out for a while um the spirit of akarat
33:33
tells you up front it doesn't know if it's really akarat it's like I don't know if I am truly the spirit of the of
33:39
the being who preached is zarat or if I'm just this idea people have about him
33:44
based on uh you know everything they heard about him yeah because don't forget we've established that the uh
33:50
Gods and spirits and stuff like that the entire spirit world in general is constructed on human belief like
33:58
every ultimately every human is a descendant of a Nephilim every Nephilim is a descendant of an angel and a demon
34:05
and every Nephilim was born in a world created by the world Stone which is part of Anu the creator of existence every
34:13
human has a little bit of that in them at all times they have the combined Essences of an angel and a demon which
34:19
means they have both halves of the stuff that was torn apart to make tathamet and the diamond Warrior Anu and they have
34:27
this world that they're living on was created purely by the world Stone so in a way all these little human beliefs
34:34
create things humans create things in a way that Angels and Demons can't but can
34:40
Angels and Demons be affected by that like is it possible that Mel's strike on
34:46
Earth has created an opinion of malel even if they don't know who malel is but some people do some people did know who
34:53
he was if the word of what happen enough there could be now an entity of death that exists on Azeroth not Azeroth sctu
35:00
Sanctuary it's on Azeroth look out guys um but there could be an entity that exists on Sanctuary right now that is
35:07
effectively what malel presented himself as it's a Reaper and it's death and it's
35:12
born out of people's belief think about how many people died the idea that there's an angel of death might just
35:19
create one and what does that mean in terms of the cosmology of the setting
35:24
like can can Heaven exist out you know know it it obviously existed before
35:29
humans existed can it survive what they think about it and maybe that's one of
35:35
the reasons they're so afraid to interact with it if you go there and the humans find out you're doing stuff and
35:42
you become in Infamous enough or famous enough that they have opinions of you they might make you into that maybe
35:49
that's why an Arius couldn't go back they were afraid he'd contaminate them do do you think that's how tyel came
35:55
back as a human because he was was always the closest to humanity and the legend of him being essentially one of
36:01
them enough people knew who tyriel was that they thought of him not as this
36:07
Divine Heavenly presence but as a person that they spoke to and so when he cast
36:12
off his Angelic nature maybe that's why he turned into a human I don't know but
36:18
certainly it's a possibility and he was You know despite the fact that he had no demonic Essence he was biologically
36:25
fully human to the point where he's you know lorath had to go through a process of explaining to him that you have to
36:32
eat but you have to eat in installments and you you know you would keep having
36:37
to do this for the rest of your life and you couldn't just get all your days eating out of the way in the morning you
36:43
had to like just imagine having to explain every aspect of biological existence to a Celestial being who is
36:50
now fully biological it's funny because we all you know I I laughed but at the same time it's also kind of horrifying
36:57
the how fully divorced tyriel was from the thing he had become well imagine that happening to every angel of course
37:04
they'd be afraid of that and it did happen to him think about the the danger
37:10
like think about what happened with odsan odsan could have destroyed them and think about what that means
37:17
every Nephilim could destroy could reach a point where it's a destructive force unlike anything ever seen in the cosmos
37:23
and every human is potentially a Nephilim in seed yeah sure we don't want
37:29
them to become part of of the demon armies but it's almost like you're looking at it going okay the demons want
37:34
to play with that good luck to you maybe it's just safer to just let them try let
37:39
them go ahead and try to corrupt them you know it doesn't look like it's work it's like trying to corrupt nitroglycerin go ahead you know maybe
37:46
you can make dynamite or maybe you'll blow yourself up and we don't want to risk blowing ourselves up so yeah go
37:52
ahead that's one of the possibilities I mean the demons have never really needed their demons you know that that's what
37:59
they are they're going to do the potentially stupid thing that might work out for them they're chaos they're
38:05
they're their violence that's they're like every emotion people have but the worst possible interpretation of it and
38:13
as a result yeah they're going to do stupid things but I could imagine the heavens going like look this is too
38:18
risky for us to get involved with especially at this time right like we have our we have our own stuff to deal with we have everything else we got to
38:24
worry about we're just we can't deal with what's down there the other side of the the question and I know Matt has
38:31
opinions on this uh and I'm going to let him go off in here in a second um but this is definitely an opportunity for
38:38
the demons and while it's never really been a thing that they've had to worry
38:43
about like a ton of angelic intervention in the past uh because the war has always been sort of on the fronts of the
38:50
you know the burning Hells more or less this is definitely an opportunity for the the greater evils to to to at least
38:57
make a play which is probably why Mesto is able to do as much as he is right now
39:04
not only from our own stupidity but like I have to have a suspicion that they have a level of control over their
39:11
manifestation um like misto has been gone for how long right up until this point because he wasn't in DIA years
39:19
about so about 50 years well actually like the the the uh Diablo 3 is 50 years
39:24
ago right longer than that yeah yeah yeah yeah so it's longer than that years ago the last time we see misto as
39:30
an independent entity on his own is Diablo I which is a solid 30 years before Diablo I so it's been almost
39:36
hundred years yeah he's been out for a while but the interesting thing about misto is that he spent a lot of time
39:42
before he gets caught up with by adventurers preparing the world around him for what he's doing now so he he had
39:50
a sense this this plan isn't going to work and even if it does work I don't trust my brothers I know what they're
39:57
like I know I know that Diablo has got another plan because whilst I am smarter
40:02
than he is he is surprisingly deceitful so I'm gonna plan for that and ball ball
40:09
doesn't have a plan ball never has a plan Ball's plan is break it and so I
40:15
don't I don't have to plan for ball but I do have to recognize that I cannot go up against ball because I'll lose in a
40:23
one-on-one fight nobody is beating ball because ball is destruction itself as a
40:28
result you got misto planning all this stuff where we're kind of seeing just how much time he spent seeding it velh
40:35
hatred and Diablo I really make the point that this is all Mesto has been
40:41
waiting for this this is exactly what he has been waiting for in a way his daughter coming back was the best move
40:47
possible for him and even even possibly something he was planning for so yeah I I definitely think where misto is is
40:53
working on an interesting plot here yeah I don't more no I was gonna say I just I
40:59
don't know what else to add to that besides the fact that like again it's like it's this perfect opportunity for
41:05
them it's just it's go ahead here's what I'm gonna say about that first off you're completely right everything Joe
41:11
just said is very interesting and has a lot of validity to it I also think to a certain degree this is the worst time
41:17
possible for them and here's why yes the angels have pulled themselves back into heaven and have locked the door and are
41:23
not interfering so yeah great time to make our move but they are all at about
41:28
the weakest they have ever been because at the end of Diablo I they basically
41:34
during Diablo I they all got jammed together inside a black Soul Stone and Diablo took control of all of them was
41:41
using all of their power yeah well here my counter here's I have a Counterpoint to that though yeah but I'm not done with the point go ahead have a
41:47
Counterpoint yet when they got out of that that's the point where they all began to start to regenerate during that
41:53
period of time where like you know 90% of the humidity was destroyed the world was essentially in Ruins and they had
42:01
lost control over their Realms as they went back into them to re to regenerate we hear that from Mesto you you see as
42:09
we're going into M festo's realm that it is not is not ruled there's nobody in
42:15
charge there's a bunch of little Thoms to the point where one Duke could give somebody permission to go to m Fisto's
42:21
Palace and not even worry about it because there's nothing misto could do to stop him I think that is why they're
42:28
doing this now because they know if they let somebody else take the initiative
42:34
they'd be in trouble I I also think that there's I think I think there's a lesson
42:39
that was learned here by misto during the whole events of Diablo I which is
42:45
Diablo had a lot a lot of influence to
42:50
the outside world while he was stuck inside of that Soul Stone mhm he was able to do a lot of stuff that in theory
42:57
he should not have been able to do I think Mesto learned I think he I don't thinko needed to learn that because he
43:03
learned that from his own experience in his soul stone that we saw at the end of it Diablo I what did he do from inside
43:09
that Soul Stone he took over the zachar room church that's fair but I think that
43:14
the level of influence extended even further in at least in here and I think
43:20
that that lesson like let's compare it right so when he was taking over the church it still was very much a human
43:26
Church um he took over a body he was able to make decisions and do things but
43:33
the world itself May and maybe it was just too subtle um didn't really warp
43:39
see I don't know that that's necessarily because he couldn't do that I think it's much more along the lines if he was trying not to do that maybe you see go
43:48
go we go back through the stuff you see in Diablo 4 when you're going to all the places misto effectively prepared
43:54
there's hatred swn into the world and he did all this back before Diablo I all
44:01
those places you go to that are completely like you know the ground is seeped in hatred like the PVP area or
44:07
like the the tomb that you go into for the quogan all of that stuff it's it's rotten and festering and just everywhere
44:15
he he could do that he just chose to do it in places where most people weren't going to see it MH and but I I think
44:23
you're right in that he's learned a lesson in terms of I don't think the lesson is oh Diablo had way more
44:28
influence than I thought I need to copy him I think the lesson was Diablo successfully faced me I fell for it I
44:37
got manipulated by him they all know that they're all demons and they all
44:42
hate each other that's never been even remotely questioned right but they've
44:47
never really stopped to think about the dark Exile they set that up to to let
44:53
the lessers basically banish them to to a sanctuary that was they never really thought about getting beaten by anything
45:00
then when they get to Sanctuary they get beaten like three times now was was one
45:05
of those times absolutely part of their plan yes but the other they didn't see the soul Stones coming they just adapted
45:12
to them and in terms of Diablo's plan absolutely nobody saw that coming until they found themselves stuck in the Black
45:18
Soul Stone with him and we still don't know what happened to them after that MH
45:23
and there's like a ton of things to think about I was I was talking to to my wife about this because we were
45:28
discussing uh Diablo in in preparation for me doing the show quite frankly um and I said to her I'm always trying to
45:35
explain it to people like if you think about the power of the primes versus the lessers uh the primes get the Lions The
45:41
Lion Share of the power of like if like if you think of it as Tat's power divided 60% went to the three primes 40%
45:48
went to the four lessers that means that each prime has like 20% of tatham's Might which means that each prime is
45:54
able to take out two lessers with relative like all together all three primes versus all four lessers there's no
46:01
chance the lessers can't win but if the lessers could gang up on a prime three
46:07
of them could potentially beat the prime now this isn't like onetoone true
46:13
because for one thing there's plenty of other demons that also have a share of tatham's power uh secondly we could
46:18
argue that the power of tathamet and the power of of the diamond Warrior Anu that the the angels are spreading is
46:24
technically infinite they are each one half of an Infinite Creation so there might not be a less there might not be a
46:31
hard and fast power rule but what we do see here is for the first time the the
46:36
the limiting factor on the demons has always been their inability to truly cooperate what happened when all seven
46:43
of them were in one form list answering to one will it stormed Heaven by itself
46:50
so I think that's part of what we're looking at the demons have never felt so powerful and yet also felt so
46:58
disadvantaged at the same time cuz on the one hand they did it they stormed
47:03
Heaven they corrupted the crystal Arch on the other hand they didn't do it one of them did it and it did it by tricking
47:10
all the rest of them and it wasn't even the one who's usually good at tricking people yeah but I mean and I think maybe
47:16
that's part of it too that I think plays into because Diablo didn't exactly do it all on his own either right no no
47:24
absolutely not and that's an interesting thing isn't it that Diablo didn't do it by he didn't do it the way Mesto did
47:30
Mesto used Mortals like cattle he stole a body and then was so busy being
47:36
tricker tricky about it how did Diablo get his most loyal minion how did he get adira he asked her yep and she's the one
47:44
who came up with the plan yep she's the one who did it misto for all his
47:49
intelligence for all his evil he doesn't trust humans enough to make one into a
47:55
servant and then take it advice but that that preparation that preparation or the use of an
48:01
outside uh person I think is is a lesson learned too because like you said he so
48:07
I I think he does he never trusted them which you know Fair uh but look at what he did this time around at every step of
48:15
the Diablo I expand or Diablo 4 game and expansion what happens you're saved you
48:22
know you deal with the wolf you're saved by the blood of Mesto essentially you stop him from being consumed because
48:31
that's what you do you're you know the big the big dumb hero but you're essentially doing everything for him
48:39
without him having to tell you how to do it exactly he challenges you just enough
48:46
gives you just enough incentive uh and it's I I liking it for for those of you
48:51
that play at home I liking it to playing a a game of Magic the Gathering Commander where you're I icking that I'm
48:58
not the threat here we got to worry about this other person over here and
49:03
it's a perfectly reasonable uh argument for the time being until it's not anymore and by the
49:09
time you realize it's not anymore it's too late and he even tells you he's going to do that he does he's very
49:15
upfront about it which I think is absolutely hysterical um it's disarming what it is is disarming and I think it's
49:21
he's very good at realizing okay I need this person to come up with their own
49:28
plans because my daughter would see my plans coming because she is my daughter
49:33
as my daughter she is part of me well there's an element of that too even with the discussion between there's there's
49:40
even an element of discussion about that between you and AEL and the the current expansion when you finally get
49:45
everything you know I don't want to say sorted but when you catch up to her one of the first things she asks you is why
49:51
why me why did you make me be the one that has to decide this and bear this burden
49:56
and even you as the the the big hero you recognize because I can't be trusted
50:04
because I'm compromised and if it was you making the decisions uh purely by yourself she
50:12
probably would and I mean to be fair I think she did know all the way up to the end um but the expectation was that you
50:17
were going to be the one that made the decision the minute you take the human uh option the minute your character uh
50:24
turns around and says no not going to do this anymore uh I'm going to do it my way or or I'm going to remove myself
50:31
from the equation and let somebody else decide everything goes sideways because
50:37
again you were the compromised person now it's no longer a problem you're not worried anymore right like you you do
50:44
the the I don't want to say the curveball but I don't know another way to say it like you you you literally
50:50
take the option that nobody expected you to take except maybe Mesto here's the thing about that too I think to a
50:56
certain degree it's like the old concept of of this is a comic book concept but it's based on a a chess term uh there's
51:02
a chess term called castling mhm where you take your rook and your queen and you effectively change their positions
51:09
uh rook and king rook and king yeah and in comic books it's come to mean okay
51:14
I'll use the people who use it the most Superman and Batman do this all the time uh Superman's fighting Captain Marvel Batman's fighting Hawkman so they Castle
51:22
they switch T like no you fight Captain Marvel I'll fight Hawkman you know
51:27
Batman has lots of ways to beat Captain Marvel Superman can just literally overpower Hawkman even with like the
51:34
magic glove that hits him with the you know it's just it's not a fair fight intellectually it's not a fair fight for
51:40
a 12-year-old even with the wisdom of Solomon to go up against captain crazy preparedness man and Hawkman is just
51:47
Hawkman and Superman is Superman it it is not a fair fight that's what we see
51:53
in that moment they Castle Nel is given the choice because it's not a good
51:58
choice for the for the player character to be making they have spent this entire game basically being a juggernaut of
52:05
Destruction they haven't been thinking and it's the only time that thinking is
52:10
important get the person who thinks all the time to do it it makes sense um it's
52:16
also terrible for another reason because Nel is like a child whose mom had just died who lost her hand it's a lot to put
52:23
on her but at the same time it does make Mak sense yeah and I think I think that's the other thing too is like I
52:30
think misto in a fit of I don't want to say Brilliance but it seems like he always has that expectation that that's
52:36
what's going to happen from the very beginning from the very moment you see him cuz you see him before you ever meet
52:42
Lilith before you ever meet her cult uh before you ever fed her blood yeah you
52:48
you meet the wolf the wolf is there when you are sitting there uh you know in the
52:53
cave Sheltering from the storm he expects you to take the hero choice and
52:59
that is the hero choice because it is the smartest thing for you to do and yeah that's the downfall for us but
53:07
exactly what he expected and we do exactly that and he gets Nal and Nal is
53:12
now again a scared child who's going to make decisions as a scared child would
53:18
uh trying to do the best she can with her limited understanding of her position in the world and to be fair I'm
53:23
not trying to talk crap about Nell she's I think she's a great character but it's very apparent that she has no
53:28
idea what's going on it would be impossible for her to to be like you know a Steely cold determined person at
53:34
this point in her life it's just you're asking too much and he knows that and so that gets him where he needs to be that
53:41
gets him what he wants you have to remember too that I think there's an interesting thing that when Mesto in a
53:46
way has done the thing that that nobody else has bothered to do and Aras hasn't bothered Arias is the father of humanity
53:53
but he never bothered to actually try to empathize with or understand them mmhm whereas Mesto is trying to and I don't
54:00
think he's fully successful because he doesn't have half of the equation but he studied inarius he looked at inarius he
54:08
he said to himself at one point and I think Lilith even says it anaras and I aren't very different and there's that
54:14
interesting aspect to it an Arius was a ball of anger when he met Lilith he was
54:20
angry about the Eternal conflict he wanted it over and if he couldn't end it he wanted to escape from it mhm
54:27
and that's the thing a we we've learned from all this that Angels and Demons aren't as strictly locked into their
54:34
role as they want to pretend and we don't just learn that about angel to anaras there's a demon that you meet I
54:40
want to say uh it's in the steps um the dry steps when you're there he's
54:46
basically just collecting treasures and living inside of a of a person and when you talk to him he's like I like it here
54:52
yeah there's murder and all that I don't want to to get destroyed and I don't I don't want the demons to win because
54:58
then it'll just be like hell and Hell sucks I I want this world to continue as it is now that's not being good but it
55:06
is being not like you'd expect a demon to be and that means that demons can
55:12
also change which brings us back to the thing we were talking about before about why I didn't think we were going to see
55:18
Diablo come back through the crystal Arch I want you to think about this possibility what if Diablo actually did
55:26
did have a change of heart or mind whilst being defeated the first time in
55:32
in Diablo I what if he looked at I got all this way I took all the power from
55:37
my brothers and sisters I did everything and I still lost to this one person
55:43
there's no one there's no plan better than my plan there's no way to win we
55:49
know that imperius is supposedly Valor and we know that he is the one that snapped and tried to kill uh and thus
55:57
caused him to escape in the in the Wrath short their Dynamic is one of opposition
56:02
but if imperious is starting to fall what happens with Diablo does Diablo are
56:08
we gon to have two evil forces of of fear and destruction or is or is one almost forced to rise what if Diablo
56:15
comes back as an Angelic being because he has to not because he wants to
56:20
necessarily not because it's a trick but because there needs to be a counterbalance like this is just
56:26
something I've been thinking about could you have a Diablo that isn't Diablo anymore imagine if there's an angel out
56:33
there somewhere right now that we don't know about that thinks it's an angel that that has Angelic thoughts it does
56:38
angel things but it's it's Diablo's life force and because of that it's inherently never going to be the thing
56:45
it thinks it is yeah see and that's the thing that I was getting at way long ago when I started talking about them going back or going him going through the
56:51
crystal Arch right it's that's one of the things we talk about with angels like they they essentially they're wiped
56:57
clean they're they're programmed from scratch their Essence becomes whatever it needs to be the memories are essentially shucked uh and they're put
57:04
back to work and how would that work for Diablo if he was forced to be because they're they're two sides of the same
57:10
coin and we've talked about this at length right they all are from the original entity that was everything from
57:16
Anu yeah they effectively tore itself apart to see what it was to to try and
57:21
experience something other than everything but to me there is no reason why a demonic entity could not go
57:28
through the crystal Arch that could not be reborn because it's the same energy
57:34
it's the same it's all from the same route um not saying that that would
57:39
happen but I think it would be very very interesting to see essentially a light forged Diablo running around um just
57:47
imagine that there's this being that is constantly like you know it it thinks it's trying very hard to do angel stuff
57:53
but it can't help but do it in the worst most demonic way possible well yeah and just think about it like a GI a giant
57:59
brutish Angel like we saw with like Isuzu right or like the ones we saw in
58:04
when they were working for um Mal yeah yeah yeah the reaper type ones they they were like gigantic hulking engines of
58:11
Destruction that look very similar to the body structure of Diablo I'm just throwing it out there and so there could
58:17
be this this thing I don't know there's lots of different ways it could work I I don't think they're going to do it
58:23
because I do think they've already established in their own heads based on the characters that are talking that
58:28
both uh ball and Diablo are coming back yeah to sanctuary and and and I think
58:33
they've been pretty clear about that because what would do Diablo game be if you didn't have the titular Diablo at some point although I am enjoying the
58:40
fact that misto is getting his time to shine um and I'm interested to see what happens too because speaking of energies
58:48
uh misto is now in possession of the spirit realm power that was once
58:53
akarat's body and what does that mean and is if it's akarat's body does it
58:59
carry with it the baggage of aarat does it warp who Mesto is as an entity does
59:05
it is that the whole theme of Diablo I and the coming expansions is change
59:12
Evolution coming back to a hole is that what's happening here is that what we're going to see in the future no idea but
59:19
it's going to be a wild ride because we're getting more expansions for Diablo 4 yeah at least one more that we know of
59:24
and I'm positive they'll do more because it's it's keeping on yeah but one thing
59:29
I want to put out there for people to think about is I want you to imagine this what Diablo did to try to become
59:35
the quote unquote Prime eval almost worked but there was one problem was that only one mind was in charge yes
59:43
tathamet had seven Minds if all seven of them were actually United and were all
59:49
still there maybe you get tathamet back maybe you could actually have tathamet the the demon dragon again what does
59:56
that look oo yeah but I think that's going to be a topic for next time uh
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