Up next in 10
This week's show is devoted to two listener questions. The first asks what the Void fears, in reference to a line from our old pal Ve'nari who asserts that she knows what it is -- but doesn't let us in on the secret. Can Matt and Joe unravel the mystery posed by our Broker friend? They go down some twisting paths to discuss their way to the answer, including a lot of discussion of all the elves on Azeroth. Then, more Midnight discussion that goes into what we may see from magic (in a broad sense) as we go forward even further to The Last Titan.
Matt and Joe are firmly anti the suggestion that perhaps we could move Zereth Mortis the same way as the Kirin Tor have been tooling around in Dalaran. They're pretty sure something about it is load bearing, but there isn't even OSHA on Azeroth, and if you know a guy willing to take a few risks... well, maybe there's a reason Brann is getting replaced?
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0:00
[Music]
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round table free form discussion about lore in your favorite media. I am your host Joe Pres, one of several lore focused folks
0:17
from Blizzard Watch and I am joined by my marvelous co-host Matt Rossy. How you doing today Matt?
0:22
Kind of obsessed about the concept of lutter narrative dissonance in games. um
0:28
sort of like forming a thought, but it isn't ready yet. I don't think maybe it'll happen during the show. I don't
0:33
know. Okay. Well, uh we're going to be answering
0:39
some questions from you, our wonderful listeners, today and we're going to see if uh we can get through them. If you
0:45
have questions for this or any of our podcast, be sure to send those in. You can hit us up on email. We have podcastwatch.com.
0:52
specify the show that it is for in the subject line as well as any special pronunciation of your name.
0:58
If you want to hit us up on Discord, feel free to do so. We have two channels set aside. We have the Q and Podcast
1:04
questions channel. It's open to everyone and we ask that you follow the same rules. Give us uh you know any special
1:10
pronunciation of your name, tell us what show it's for, etc., etc. If you are a Patreon subscriber, you can actually hit
1:15
us up on the Patreon Q and podcast questions channel on Discord. We tend to look there first as a way of saying
1:20
thank you to our friends for helping us keep the lights on. And with that, we'll get into the first one. Uh, this one
1:27
comes from Mirene. At one point in the caress chain leading up to Mana Forge Omega after the big emotional
1:34
confrontation with Yria, Venari says to Zalatath, "Enough. Make sure he
1:40
referencing Locust Walker succeeds. I have been to the M. I know what the void
1:45
fears." While we are standing in Ecodome Primus, do we know what the void fears
1:51
from the MA? If not, on any thoughts? Well, I mean, there's plenty of thoughts
1:58
that we could have there. We've been speculating off and on about it a little bit, but I'll let Matt have first crack at it.
2:04
Well, I mean, the problem is is that a lot of the things I'm going to say are based on stuff you've said previously, Joe, so I apologize in advance. Um,
2:12
I think that there's several things. I I first of by the fact that I can analyze your question, I know that you're mentioning Primus on purpose. Uh and
2:20
we'll get back to that. But one of the things to consider is that we know way
2:26
before we even had Shadowlands, we know that the void does not like seeing
2:32
certain things. Um, specifically when Ayria and Sylvanas and Valyria were all
2:39
in one spot, the three sisters together, all all in one area, the void went nuts
2:45
inside Ayria's head, trying to get her to kill her sister immediately,
2:51
like, you know, no debate, no not even a hello. The void was like, "Kill her, kill her, kill her, kill her, kill her."
2:58
And Eller's like, "Excuse me." Uh, having a moment, headache. Uh so we know that the void fears something
3:06
to do with Sylvanas. Now, Sylvanas, in addition to being a forsaken and thus
3:12
undead, has been touched by the powers of the Maul, specifically the jailer who
3:20
was at that time, you know, Zval, previously um, you know, grand hauba of
3:26
all death and then, you know, cast down and then reclaiming his arbiter powers at a later date. and as part of the plan
3:33
that he started using among other people her uh he made a deal with her. She was
3:40
part of his whole mechanism of doing that. So considering that the mall was the place he was cast down to and I
3:46
think Joe and I have both speculated on multiple occasions that the way to looks and the way the mall looks, it's it
3:53
seems likely to us that before the arbiter was cast down and they they made
3:58
a new one out of the mantle. It's quite likely that the M and that that uh
4:03
Togast and Orbos were connected. Um it feels like if you look at
4:10
as a piece it's not a Yeah. Yeah. Orbos feels like it would have been like the thing on top of the mall of the you
4:16
know to gas tower. It it feels like the mo itself would have been part of a much
4:22
more connected Shadowlands. Possibly the ones the other realms we have in the
4:27
Shadowlands might be broken off from it. Maybe not. But there still feels like
4:32
there would have been a place there that wasn't the mall. Um that was someplace else.
4:39
As to what that place is, what that thing is, that's I mean, you could just
4:46
say undeath and and be done with it. Um you could say possibly it's domination
4:52
magic because the helm of domination is the reason that Sylvanas was what she
4:58
was. The fact that you mention Primus means that you want us to talk about the
5:03
Primus. Um, and how he seems to have control over domination/will
5:09
magic that nobody else has to the point where he could he's his rune forging could be
5:16
used to enslave people. Um, we see that with Andowin. Uh, the when when the
5:22
jailer Zval got his hands on Andowin's sword from his father. Um, they used
5:28
rune forging to essentially imprison Anduin in his own body using possibly
5:35
the channel that he normally used to connect to the light to do it. And the
5:40
fact that at the end, you know, Arthus' soul fragment shows up when you free
5:46
Anduin implies that they used Arthus' soul to do it. Um, did they use it to
5:52
power the the magic? Did they literally just put Arthus in the driver's seat? I
5:58
don't know. I don't think that they put Arthus in the driver's seat just because I don't think Arthus would have happily
6:04
gone along with Zoval. I think you would have had to do a lot to get him to do that. Um, so yeah, I I there are a lot
6:11
of possibilities. Um, domination magic is certainly one of them. Uh, the fact that undead seem to be outside of the
6:18
cycle of life and death. Um the you know there's lots of possibilities but it's definitely something to do with what we
6:26
know both the M and Sylvanas have whatever that is. The void is afraid of
6:32
something related to Sylvanas and the M is if the if the M is where
6:38
you discover what the void fears that would make it imply very heavily that
6:43
it's either the power of undeath or the power of domination. In my opinion,
6:49
those are the two main suspects for this, the way I look at it.
6:55
But, uh, I feel I've talked enough and Joe can go now because half of that was from just stuff Joe said before. So I feel well no I mean like yeah I mean we've
7:01
been we've been kind of circling this one for a while because there's there's a bunch of different options that that are are available as to what Venari has
7:09
found out because we know that Venari was searching for something and part of it we think may have just been you the
7:14
use of in general and like we'll address that part first because we see we see
7:20
come back to the arbiter though it does it all comes back to the arbiter right because alla passes through the
7:27
arbiter essentially or the mechanism of the arbiter to go where it needs to go in the Shadowlands in the afterlife.
7:32
Whether it's going to Ardan Weld or or or uh Bastion or wherever, it doesn't really matter. It has to pass through
7:39
that that mechanism. The Jailer being the one that was formerly that that mechanism, Zilval, in his complete form,
7:47
probably has more knowledge of any of the others, maybe excluding the Primus,
7:52
but that's that's up for debate. The
7:58
idea that Venari specifically being in the MA is because Venari knows this. She
8:03
knew this ahead of time. She knew this before anybody else did because that's sort of in character for Venari. Venari
8:09
learns things. It's what brokers do. Uh well, I'm assuming that at some point
8:17
along there her goal was to learn how to manipulate. And we see that in the questing specifically in uh post mana
8:26
forge Omega stuff with Venari because canonically after you beat uh the the
8:31
raid that's when the stuff with the EcoDoo happens uh and that's when you
8:37
are doing a lot of the uh rebuilding of the EcoDomes and getting life started with Venari in starting in Primus
8:45
and a lot of what you see is taking essence and spirit and energy of these
8:51
fallen animals and creatures in reconstituting them through the machine that Venari has in the center
8:58
which is very fascinating because essentially Venari is doing exactly what Ardanel did and reconstituting them into
9:06
a living physical creation. Uh and it looks like there is a bunch of that animal manipulation. So there's a
9:12
level there that it could be referencing the fact that Venari knows that
9:19
essentially the void is energy, right? And we haven't really talked about that,
9:25
but it is a primal force. It is a force of the cosmos. It is an energy. And
9:30
we've seen in this current content that the void can suffuse a already living
9:37
creature and change its identity. And whether or not you want to argue that
9:42
brokers and etherealss are living creatures, I would argue that they are because they can be terminated. Uh they
9:47
just happen to be pure energy bound to a physical frame here. But when void is applied to them, they're still them.
9:55
They just have a different view. Much in the same way that Locust Walker is, much in the way that King Saladar is, much in
10:03
the way that the giant constructs that are wearing big suits of armor uh that are formerly etherealss that work for
10:11
the the now Dementius and the whole void apparatus, how they are.
10:16
If you can manipulate that energy, that instantly makes you scary.
10:22
And we've talked about this in the past. The void is part of a hole. It is
10:28
infinite potential, yes, but it's still part of the universe. It still operates within a certain amount of rules of the
10:34
universe we live in. And if you can bind it and if you can manipulate it, it
10:39
becomes less powerful as a standalone entity, much in the same way that people wield the light. And we've seen that
10:45
light was able to be bound and altered and changed or any of the other primal forces of the universe. And so there's
10:52
an element that it could be that it could also simply be the fact that if
10:58
you were to raise something in the style that you did with like Sylvanas or any of the myriad of constructs and soul
11:05
splicing and sharding that Zal did in the mall because don't forget he didn't
11:10
just shove complete souls back into bodies. He shredded them. He ripped them apart and used them.
11:18
You you've actually caused something. Now you like when you get done with this. Okay. We were talking before about the Primus
11:24
and then you talked about you said um that Zal probably knew more about for anybody the Primus and I it hit me.
11:32
Mald Draxis has always had that disturbing pseudo alive
11:37
texture to it. Like it's it's like you're standing on a being so colossal that you can only detect its hairs.
11:44
Like and they're like giant things coming up out of the ground. And when you go there during the Calia
11:50
Menithil tries to retake Lorderon thing, you go there and you're told
11:57
that the undead don't have to be powered by death magic, quote unquote.
12:03
That that death magic and the power of the Shadowlands, the death there, they're different things. Death magic is
12:10
any magic that you know necromancy specifically is any magic that is used
12:15
to change the status of of a dead or living thing into one or the other any
12:21
anything that can cross that barrier. And specifically we've seen that with Calia that the light can be used that
12:27
way. You can use the light to maintain a dead person in their body indefinitely.
12:36
They're not alive. They don't have any of the processes of life, but they are conscious and present inside their body.
12:42
And unlike the ones that, you know, Sylvanas
12:47
uh had to when Sylvanas used the valkir to rebuild Nathanos,
12:54
that required a sacrifice of a living being. Like they had to sacrifice Nathanos's
13:00
nephew or whatever. I think he was his nephew. His nephew. Yeah. To to use that power. I the implication
13:06
is they put his spirit inside his nephew's body kind of reminding us of Teran Goriend and and all the other
13:13
original death knights that they had their souls jammed into somebody else's body. Um they that um Guldon required
13:22
trenchons to do that. Obviously the Valk didn't which means that that might be why there's a a difference in terms of
13:29
how the animation goes. But in terms of what that means for the void, the void
13:35
wants to be infinite possibility. You can't be infinite possibility once you've been committed to a possibility.
13:42
Mhm. Potential is not actual. The second you
13:47
use the void to do something, you've kept the void from doing all those other things. And while that's fine when it's
13:56
something transient, like if you use the void to to beef up some monster that's going to get itself killed in a couple
14:01
of months, the void will then go on to do something else. But if you lock the void inside a dead body that will not
14:09
change or age or die, that will just preserve that mind. The light would
14:16
probably actually be much more amendable to that. That's an orderly thing. That's
14:22
a thing that can be now said this was what was supposed to happen. This is what is happening. This is the path. But
14:29
that doesn't the void the light likes having one path to follow. The void
14:34
doesn't. Imagine being locked in like that when your entire presence is today I'm a
14:39
butterfly. Today I'm a dog. Today I'm the plague destroying the city. Today I'm a flower. And now suddenly today I'm
14:47
still an undead being. It's the immutability possibly which is
14:55
very similar to domination magic. Domination magic locks you into something.
15:00
Yeah. And I was going to say like it's a very good leap to make there that the
15:06
immutability of it and you mentioned this a long time ago and I think this feeds into it. Uh there's also an
15:12
element of being outside of the cycle that I think really Yes. Because now you're not cycling,
15:17
right? Cuz you look at look at what the M was. The M was an oblet or oolet. It
15:26
was a prison where you were supposed to throw essentially trash that was never meant
15:32
to be escaped, changed, or do anything. Every other place in the Shadowlands,
15:39
you had an evolution. It may not have always been great like
15:45
becoming a Kyrion in in uh Bastion before they were patched so to speak.
15:52
You gave up who you were in order to become something else. And Mel Draxis,
15:58
but it was something but it was something. It was still an evolution. And Mel Draxas is Mald Draxis is almost
16:03
it's like the most fascinating place because it's an army of the undead, but they are constantly changing. They're
16:09
con they're an evolution of of what they were beforehand and they con they they the flesh dishing the flesh crafting uh
16:16
a lot of the magics that they use there. Yeah, there's an element to it. Yes, it has a motif but there is like look at
16:23
the whole story with the um and it's a sad story and I can't remember the character's name but it's the the Kyrion
16:30
that wind up becoming a flesh gollum. Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. I don't remember the name either,
16:35
but I remember because it's it's integral to the whole getting through the flesh works bit.
16:40
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. But that story was was very much about that too where even even in death you
16:48
could become mutable. you could change, evolve. And all of that leads back to we
16:54
can go back to to uh Revendrth and the idea that you repented, that you
17:01
evolved, you changed, you shed your pride or what what sent you there in the first place. Yeah. You got you gave away whatever was
17:08
tethering you to the life you had and in so doing one way or the other became
17:14
whatever you were going to become. Yeah. You were sent somewhere else to evolve. Even Gash does it because Gash,
17:21
he does give up everything tying him to his mortal life. He just does so in a way that destroys him utterly because
17:27
that's he refuses to move on, but he still does make a change. Yeah. And then again, Ardan Weld is sort
17:34
of like the classic one where yes, you you change into a new form, whether it's a you know, a weird dream sader or a
17:41
pixie or fairy or whatever. Uh or you like that druid. There's that that that druid that you run into there because
17:48
actually she's relatively involved. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. You're absolutely right. And then or the cycle that sends you
17:54
back to be reborn. Even then though, we when they talk about it, you learn, you change, you evolve. Uh and we're about
18:01
to have more about that cuz Vulg hasn't popped up yet, which I'm surprised at this point he hasn't. Uh but with us
18:07
going back to It feels like he kind of has to. It feels like he has to soon. I would hope that hit somewhere around midnight.
18:14
Uh we'll see. Uh because I'd love to see what happened with that thread because this fits in with this. But there
18:19
there's there's a cycle to everything. There's a life and death, rebirth or evolution.
18:25
And things that went to the M, things that were made by magic of the M do not
18:31
change or evolve. Even death knights do not change or evolve.
18:36
Yeah. They they are in fact trapped. They are trapped in the stasis. Their pain, their suffering, the stuff that
18:43
the Lich King is what holds them there is what holds them there. But it's necessary for them to stay in caporeal
18:49
form essentially. Yeah. It's actually you, now that you've mentioned it, it's very it's very telling that that's the the death
18:56
knights are getting their power ultimately from the helm of domination from the MA. And it's that power again that fixes them in place.
19:04
they can't change or grow or adapt because they're prisoned. And maybe that has changed because now
19:10
the uh helm of domination is no longer existent and it is now the it is now the
19:16
crown of wills. Um but we can see if that changes or evolves and maybe death knights have
19:21
changed. Uh but yeah, there there's two elements there that could possibly be it like it is it is that necessary that
19:28
that stasis that operation outside of the cycle but also could be a fear
19:33
because undead so far and and particularly the forsaken
19:41
have not been consumed by the void. The void has this interesting way of infecting the living. And the reason I'm
19:48
going to bring this up is cuz we've seen it over the course of many expansions. And maybe this is nothing. Maybe this is
19:54
something. Uh look at all the uh bishops and and holy men that have fallen into
20:00
the sway of the void that have become harbingers of the message of the void.
20:05
Their bodies physically alter and change. They take on appearances of creatures of the deep. uh they you know
20:12
how many times have we seen that sort of mutation because that is a key element of what the void offers. You go back to
20:19
the cthrai. You go back to all of our our lovely bugs that we've interacted
20:25
with throughout the entire course of the history of WoW. All of them were evolved
20:31
from something else. And you know the stories of oh they were born from the black blood. We literally just had an
20:38
entire tier of content. You know we started with going in and dealing with the what the black blood does evolve
20:45
things into. technically two uh you know tiers of content where we deal with the
20:50
black blood and what it does to things and there's also that evolution that mutation that change
20:56
which is not very different from what the water of the well of eternity did to
21:01
things very much so but the thing you have never seen and you can correct me if I'm
21:06
wrong but I think I'm right we have not seen that applied to a scourge or a
21:11
forsaken no I mean we might have seen warlock ones that can use void magic, but
21:17
they've never been one that is like But harnessing energy is completely different than being mutated by it, right?
21:23
Well, we I mean, Zeliac could use light energy. He could use the light in his
21:28
magic. If he could command the light, why you another one can command the the void without, you know, you no one is
21:34
arguing that Zeliac is in is, you know, infested with the light.
21:39
You know, he can make it do what he wants, but he's not, you know, he is a scourge. she is not of the light and
21:47
anything you can say about the light you can probably say about the void in terms of their effect on how how they are
21:54
versus how they can be used. Um both are inimicable forces to each
21:59
other but that does not mean that they are they they can be forced into
22:06
compliance. We know that because the Twilight father did it. Mhm. I mean, he was still using the
22:12
light and the void at the same time. You know, that's possible. I And you know,
22:18
neither the light nor the void wants to be used next to each other. He but he was doing it. So, yeah, that's a that's
22:24
a real interesting point, too, man. I had not thought of that. Occasionally occasionally I have decent thoughts. The
22:29
other thing that I think is going to be fascinating moving forward is to see how this manifests. Like, we all have the speculation and this has been from
22:36
Gamescom and beyond and and people have been calling this for a while. uh and we called it a while before this that we
22:41
would see Sylvanas come back during the course of this trilogy and not only because of the tying up of the loose
22:47
ends but because of how prominent Alyia was during most of if not all of the war
22:53
within where her story runs parallel to it and making things whole recovering
22:59
what is lost is a subthe throughout all of the war within and we saw glimmers of
23:05
that hope that that prayer that peace between the sisters in a new life moving
23:10
forward. And Sylvanas has been spending all this time
23:16
essentially repenting. Uh maybe not in so many words, but doing what was tasked
23:21
of her. And honestly, from what we've seen, hasn't made an like an attempt to to leave. She saw Anduin. Uh they had
23:29
that conversation. She didn't go for his throat. She didn't try to scheme her way out of it. she accepted that she needed
23:36
to move forward after all the events that happened uh leading up to her essentially turning on Zolval and
23:42
turning on uh whatever his plans were. But she is most likely to be the
23:49
harbinger of Zealot's end or at least Zalatas offputting.
23:54
Um I don't think we're going to kill Zalot in Midnight. I'm going to say that right now. Um I don't think we're going to kill
23:59
Yeah, it doesn't seem likely. I I think I I even though she is a raid boss ear in the first tier, I think we're not
24:06
going to kill her until we're back done with the Riticron stuff because that storyline's still out there and whatever
24:12
he's doing she was tied up in and there has to be a correlation there. So, I
24:17
could be wrong, but I don't think we're going to kill Zath yet. I think Zelth is going to be um maybe early on in The
24:23
Last Titan uh but maybe not right now, but we'll find I mean, even even if we
24:29
do quote unquote kill her. Um Yeah. So that's not even her real body.
24:37
Yeah. You know, but that's like, you know, you you killed that and you be like, that's not even my final form. What do you What
24:43
you know, come on, man. I' I've been a knife. I've been a I've been a dead elf.
24:48
Before that, I was something else. You know, just just don't don't get too excited just cuz someone's a raid boss.
24:55
But I do think that we are going to see like we saw the army of the light come through but the army of the light isn't
25:01
the only thing that we have access to. We literally just helped cares and going
25:07
to and helped Venari and helped Venari pretty pretty strongly. We helped
25:12
breathe new life or at least calling into uh whatever shard of Caresh's world
25:18
soul is left and Venari is going to be grateful for that. And if Venari has
25:23
information that likes to mess with Zealot, Zealot just screwed everybody over, including Venari. So, pretty sure
25:31
Venari is going to be keen to to put whatever she knows into action. We also know Venari has a way in and out of the
25:36
mall that doesn't involve the mall walker. It would be very easy, all the brokers do if they
25:42
really want to. Uh, but it's very easy for me to see Venari opening up a portal, her walking through and Sylvanas
25:50
and possibly even Nath Thanos right behind her and going to town on Zel.
25:57
That's the That's the thing I also wanted to say about the whole idea of that Sylvanas didn't try to leave or
26:02
anything. People keep forgetting this. for all the for all the way she's messed
26:08
up, for all the things she's done that are evil. Even in her evilst phase, she
26:14
didn't get rid of Nathanos. She wanted Nathanos around. When turn
26:20
when Teronda says, you know, you know that she killed Nathanos, Sylvanas is like, what?
26:27
You know, at her core, beneath all of this,
26:32
this is a woman who actually loves this man and has loved him through
26:39
everything. And let's I was going to say, let's not forget that she like she is not incapable of
26:44
love. It's not just Nathan. She loves her sisters. She loved her family. Like she she
26:52
is just up to this point very broken. Well, there's that whole bit in uh the
26:58
war crimes book where Verissa comes to her and is like, you know, I need your help to kill Garash. And there's this
27:05
moment where she describes it like a phantom limb. Like, you know, she knows she shouldn't
27:10
feel this. She knows that she, you know, she's practically dead. I possibly we But we have an answer for that now.
27:16
We know what happened. Yeah. Because she was because she was shredded. She was incomplete. Her soul
27:21
was Yeah. Part of her soul was captured. Now that now she has that portion back. Uh
27:26
it doesn't excuse what she did or make it not have happened. But she's now capable of emotional processing again.
27:32
But even when she wasn't fully capable of it, there were people who could get through it. Verissa got through it.
27:38
Mhm. She it now her plan was to kill Verissa, but not because she hated her. She was
27:45
going to kill Verissa and then raise her into undeath and the two of them could be together forever. which is the kind
27:52
of thing someone who doesn't have all of their soul might come up with when they're confronted with feelings of love
27:57
for a sibling because it makes sense if you squint and that's all Sylvanas could
28:04
do was squint. I I think there's there the the relationship between Sylvanas
28:09
and and Nathanos has always been at its heart one of two people who are
28:15
constantly separated by something. Whether it was the elf human thing,
28:21
whether it was, you know, his being a mindless undead and her still, you know, having control of herself, whether it
28:27
was her position, uh there's always been something in the way. And then combine
28:32
that with the fact that neither, you know, she didn't have her complete soul. Um, I would be interested to see what an
28:38
Thanos Sylvanas relationship would look like in a world where she can be fully
28:44
Sylvanas and and maybe she's not in charge of the Forsaken anymore, which was like a burden for her.
28:51
Yeah. Something she didn't originally want. No, not at all. And she she embraced it
28:57
and to a degree she got, you know, we forget this, she actually kind of loved the forsaken
29:04
because she didn't want them to have a stagnant, a stagnant unlife where they would just be until their bodies just
29:11
rotted away and they were gone. She wanted them to get to be a people. The whole bit about trying to come up with
29:17
new ways to make more forsaken, that was her attempt to stabilize them as a people.
29:24
There's there's a lot to Sylvanas. And I say this as somebody who absolutely
29:29
decrieded some of the things that she did in that story. And I don't think of her as a as a cartoonish good person.
29:35
No, absolutely not. Uh but there's a lot of depth to her character that I think would tie in really well with what we're
29:41
doing in these two expansions. I would agree. getting to see her come back and not have to be the banshee
29:48
queen of the foresaken, but to just be Sylvanas, to be General Windrunner again.
29:55
Yeah, absolutely. Cuz that's who she was, General Windrunner. Her sister decided to f off
30:00
to another dimension. And so she stepped up and became the best general that they
30:06
the Far Safe has ever had. And think about it this way like too like she
30:12
Lamar and her are friends or at least they were they were and I would I would
30:18
argue that in the darkest time of need like if if she doesn't show up during
30:23
the siege I will be very surprised. Yeah, it seems like unlikely cuz this is
30:29
a person who when the when the blood elves were like you know reaching out Sylvanas is the one who got them into
30:35
the horde. Yeah, it wasn't like it wasn't Thr, the great peacemaker. Uh it wasn't Kairen uh who
30:43
actually had someone dead living in his city and he was talking to them. It was Sylvanas
30:49
who who specifically reached out to them,
30:54
not the other way around when they were rejected when they were rejected by Ayaria.
30:59
Mhm. Like she reached out to them. Yep.
31:05
And I mean uh what her other her other cohort her other member of her her ranger troop is still alive too, isn't
31:11
he? Helder on Brightblade. Yeah. Yeah. So still out there. Heldron's still out there as well. Like
31:18
these were definitely seems to have gone tighter to Verissa. Um uh but he definitely knows and
31:25
respects Sylvanas or at least he did before. You know, I don't know what his current feelings on her are, but I know that he's out there. I could imagine him
31:32
listening to her. But it's one of those things where I can see a moment where like the the walls are darkening, the
31:37
army of light gets summoned in through uh the Sunwell and then from the other side a bunch of broker portals open up
31:45
and through it winds up Sylvanas and you know it's Avengers Endgame, guys. Come on. You know the scene.
31:51
Uh and then we get we get the fighting back, the pushing back against the void. And you have that reuniting of the
31:57
sisters that we haven't had in forever. And we get that that moving forward that moving like I said the the the war
32:05
within was a whole launch of like internal healing becoming whole again
32:11
like learning to move forward whether it was the earth and regaining their memories and becoming a whole people
32:17
again moving forward instead of just machines that break down and are reborn with more machine parts. Um they were
32:24
given a life and actual living creature a head start. The goblins same thing. They're made whole again. They're
32:30
starting over. They're not shackled by uh the previous, you know, trade
32:36
princes. Uh they move forward with a new goblin identity, ready to enter the world, healed and renewed. And the same
32:44
thing is happening with all the Keshi. And I say Keshi because it's the
32:50
etherealss and the brokers and any of the natives there. They regain a sense
32:55
of who they were. They give bits back to uh the world soul of Kesh and their life
33:03
is starting again. The like the brokers and the ethereals coming together I don't think can be undersold of how
33:09
important or monumental of a thing that is. these groups of people that have different philosophies on how to deal
33:15
with what happened to their home worlds come together and are working for the
33:21
the reinstatement of their planet. Essentially, their regrowth of a world soul, something previously thought un
33:28
unheard of, right? So, you have all these things that are these themes of of
33:35
becoming whole and healing and there's still more to do. The elves still have
33:41
to be still have to heal. Bellammath was just the beginning. We saw
33:47
dark rangers welcomed there. We saw all the elves welcomed there. But now is the time for all those elves to start
33:53
walking through portals into the Sunwell's defense, right? And it's it's the time to have
33:58
that that moment of Yeah. And can Loramar's wife show up, please? Please,
34:04
please. I think I said that I said that in the queue at one point sarcastically, but I really kind of mean this. The dude is
34:09
married to Thera. Theistra has access to a gigantic magical city.
34:14
One of the one of the largest and most powerful wells of arcane power on this planet.
34:20
A teleportation network that spans the globe. I mean, the woman has reason to
34:26
show up. If if if the listener doesn't show up, it's just weird. It's like, did they
34:33
have a fight? Was like, did she turn off her magical phone? Like, is he texting her? like look I'm sorry but the things
34:39
are happening and she like you know finally checks on her magical phone and there's 137 messages from Lamar. She's
34:46
like oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh god oh okay, but this is one of those moments
34:51
where you could have literally all the disperate elves show up to help, you know? Yeah. Not even necessarily ones you'd
34:57
expect. Like imagine how surprised everyone would be if Tonda shows up, but she could.
35:02
Why wouldn't she? Well, I mean, they'd be surprised because she's never really gotten along very well with the people
35:08
involved. Yeah. That's the kind of thing. But I don't feel like would care. I I don't think so either. I think we're
35:14
living in a postbell world, right? Where where I think Toonda not has softened
35:20
but understands what's at stake for the like more than ever before. She got to do the thing that she set out
35:27
to do. She she smacked Sylvanas around Senius. The only reason Sylvanas escaped
35:32
that was because, you know, literally Aloon saved her. I mean, she would have died. She would have killed Sylvanas,
35:38
though. And the only reason Sylvanas survived was that. But she got to do
35:43
that to her first. And then she's the one that sentenced Sylvanas to the thing she is now doing,
35:49
which means that that is she got to be the judge and the juror,
35:54
the jury and the executioner. And and she could have and she could have ended Sylvanas's existence. But
36:01
again, going back to the whole Aloon saved her. Yeah. Right.
36:07
That's that whole sequence of why why did you stop me, mother? Why did you why did you uh hold my vengeance? And it's
36:14
like no, there there's a reason. And again, we go back to like Aloon knows more than Aloon lets on. Always. That's
36:20
always been the case. So, if Aloon knew this was coming with Alatith, knew that a great eclipse was coming to the
36:25
Sunwell Plateau, then which we've seen that Aloon Aloon is sensitive to that kind of thing. And we know that the power of Aloon is
36:31
sufficient to kill an old god. Yes. Um because one of the night warriors
36:36
did. And that means to me like the fact that Aloon kind of has both light and
36:42
void elements to her personality. Again, kind of like a Naru. Um and the fact
36:47
that she's seemingly capable of, you know, moving between like realms and
36:52
states, like she can be the sister to the, you know, the uh oh, bloody heck,
36:58
why can't I remember her name? the the I want to say the autumn the winter the winter queen. Winter queen. Thank you. Why was I
37:03
saying autumn? Um but she's like the sister to the the winter queen who bridges like the shadowlands and the
37:10
living world implies that Aloon has some kind of similar status. Mhm. And that kind of me makes me wonder.
37:17
Oh, we know she does. She's able to she was able to take all those night elf souls and she thought and put them there
37:22
and put that and and she thought she was putting them in Ardan weld. Yeah.
37:28
How why would she why would why would she think she could do that unless she'd done it before,
37:33
right? She she very clearly had some pull with the arbiter. Well, that's the thing is like she's got a psychopesque nature.
37:40
Mhm. Um and that's all part and parcel of the the night warrior herself
37:46
when you read the the the the I want to say the legend because it's in game but still it's a legend. You read about how
37:52
she placed these warriors in the sky. Mhm. made them out of the stars and from
37:58
stars they were made into the stars they returned. Um there's there's a lot to that and but I
38:04
think this all goes back to what we're talking about in terms of what could the we started off this with the the void,
38:09
right? Like what the void could possibly be afraid of. That's where we started on this. We've been going for a bit. Yeah. Um, but what could the void be
38:16
afraid of in the m is the mall is that place where the cycle can be broken and
38:23
turned into something else. When you get right down to it up to the
38:28
fact that like they were taking people's like they were taking people's entire souls, not just their whole souls and
38:35
hammering them together like folded metal into weapons and armor and devices
38:41
and constructs like Joe pointed out. the the rune forging can even go beyond
38:47
what it seems domination magic does into the realms of terrifying
38:53
in that with runic magic you seem to be able to transcend
38:58
what things are supposed to be you can you can just straight up say ah
39:03
no you're not going to get to be reborn as a farmer somewhere uh you're going to be part of this big spike I have and I'm going to stab people with it you're
39:09
going to be in there screaming every time I stab them to make it worse for them and and for you.
39:15
I keep wondering this one when we talk about like all the ones that didn't get to come back from the Shadowlands due to
39:21
the enema drought. How do we know that Earth sock isn't a giant hammer somewhere now?
39:27
Yeah. So, that's terrifying. Well, the the interesting thing though, too, is like
39:34
you rais a good point and again, we're going all over the place here. Sorry, but I know you folks enjoy this
39:39
sometimes, so strap in. I guess we don't know what his animal was used for
39:48
and arguably we know that it it was used at one point they basically they weren't giving any
39:53
back to him so because they couldn't spare it but and what happened to what was there
39:59
and the the wild gods are probably tremendous forces of to begin with so we don't know how much
40:06
made it through to his sleeping cocoon and now that the drought is over. And
40:13
there's also some other factors that we didn't like we haven't really discussed that could have been at play here too.
40:20
Womdi was hoarding like little barrels of it here, little pockets here and there. Womdi was also
40:27
being able to make a a a go at which Loa returned which meant that he had some
40:33
control over that as well. Now with everything restored and Bamdi no longer
40:38
under the the watchful gaze of Moisala, do we get the Lowa back? Do we get our
40:45
wild gods back? Because they can. Can the Winter Queen who very likely has a
40:52
blueprint of their their personality or who they were make them reborn?
40:58
Because that's the other thing that we saw with with Zerith Mortise and and sort of the separ of the first ones. is
41:05
a giant workshop and that giant workshop created bodies and those bodies were
41:11
mechanical in nature and those mechanical bodies could have a mantle placed upon them that essentially made
41:16
them flesh, made them living things uh or the approximation therein, right? And
41:23
yeah, it allowed them to manifest in some in some fashion. And again, that might also be terrifying to the void.
41:29
Yeah, that too because the void doesn't want you to do that to it either. The void doesn't want
41:35
actual as much as it wants possible. Once you make something, you've created
41:42
it. It is a thing now. It's not a possible thing. It's an actual thing.
41:48
And like we we see with um especially with the pantheon and the proto pantheon
41:53
you saw in in Zerith Mortise that the protoantheon was just it was like blanks
42:01
but it had the power but it didn't have the persona the persona of each of the the pantheon
42:07
of death of the winter queen of um I want to say death but that's not his name. Um Denathrius there it is
42:15
Denathrius. uh the winter queen, Kyestia, the you know the the archon,
42:20
all of them grew their personalities. They they developed them. They didn't
42:26
just they weren't born with them, but they they grew like they grew them almost immediately upon birth and they
42:33
grew them based on the places where they were quote unquote born. Which implies to me that when they went to the when
42:38
they were sent to the realms that they were intended to control, they bound themselves to those places and took on a
42:45
characteristic based on those places which then grew from there. So they took the possibility of what they could
42:51
become and actualized it. They became something. And they aren't just drones.
42:59
You know, Kyia has a mind and a will. Um, the Winter Queen is extremely, you
43:05
know, strong willed and opinionated. I I honestly do think what we saw when
43:11
Zal died, uh, I'm using the air quotes as hard as I can when I say that. Um, is the
43:18
reverse process. It's when you pull the you pull that stuff out of him. So, now he doesn't
43:25
have anything anymore. He turns back into that blank, but the the hymn of it
43:31
is already gone. It's just it's interesting to imagine how terrifying this would be to the
43:37
void. Well, I will say, Merilene, I hope that answers your question and because well,
43:44
we went a whole bunch of places there. I'm sorry. At one point, I was sitting going, "Wait a minute. We were talking
43:50
about the void, right?" This next one comes from Razerbug.
43:56
Uh sometimes I call him Razer Berg, but we're going to go with the Razer Bug this time. For us, we're friends. Never.
44:05
Uh your two-parter on Daron and the Kieran tour was fascinating. Well, thank you. And got me thinking. If Midnight is
44:10
the void light patch, is it too big a leap to assume the Last Titan being about Arcane Order domination magic? If
44:16
that was the case, could you see instead of rebuilding Doerant the Kirantor or legacy group of magic users co-op Zerith
44:22
Ordos and fly it phase it into Azeroth as a new zone city and hub? This would
44:27
allow them a fresh start, a truly faction agnostic area and house a new mage tower and a class hall for all
44:34
magic users. Plus, it's a great place to base a garrison of spell breakers. Just
44:39
saying. I'll let Matt have first crack at this one. Uh, it's not too much to say that the
44:47
third next expansion after midnight might be what you said, an order, you
44:52
know, magic type focused expansion. I don't know that that's what's going to happen, but no, it's not crazy to
44:58
speculate that. I I feel like transporting Zerith Ordos to Azeroth is
45:05
kind of like, well, didn't we need that where it was? like it's sort of part of this whole deal and you just kind of
45:12
move it like it's this is why we don't play Jenga with the universe. Um I I
45:17
feel like you don't just yank out that support structure. Go oopsy. Oh well. Um
45:23
so yeah, now that don't that does not sound like a good idea to me. I'm not saying that you know like mortal mages
45:29
wouldn't do something so terribly stupid, but I don't think it's a good idea. Um but you could just go to
45:35
Zerith. It's not like portals to places are, you know, if you could build one to
45:41
the Shadowlands and you could build one from the Shadowlands to Zerith Mortise,
45:47
you could probably build a portal to either Zerith Ordos or to like from, you
45:54
know, possibly the Halls of Valor because remember, uh, Odin supposedly had some sort of connection to it. So
46:01
yeah, I I I feel like there's ways to do it without actually slamming it into the
46:06
I get that the people in Delerin like to slam cities into things. Uh I get that they like to rip cities out of places
46:12
and float them around and make them go places, but I feel like leaving Zerith
46:17
Ordos where it was and you going to it is the smarter move here is safer. It's
46:25
a better idea. That's just me. I would agree with you on that one because I mean again, Zerith Ordice, we've had two
46:32
mentions of it, I think. Uh, one is in a throwaway line from uh one of the NPCs.
46:39
I want I want to say it was like uh Cesura, somebody talking Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody talking to uh
46:46
what's his name? Jerk Wad Odin. but also Odin himself inside of I think it was
46:52
like edicts of the prime designate when we found that book by Odin with all the different things in it. Yep.
46:58
Uh one of them is that uh and I will quote it here. Uh attribute all
47:03
accomplishments and works of wonder to the titans alone despite the relentless arguments by made I'm sorry no that's
47:10
not the right one. I apologize. Uh third do not share knowledge of the first ones. mortals could not conceive of the
47:16
wonders that the makers granted to the titans in Zerith Ordice. Thus, learning
47:22
of the progenitors would only confuse them. It is enough that mortals know the titans brought order to the cosmos and
47:29
that they are owed deference. So, yeah, I mean, we're going to be the last one,
47:34
the the last Titan. We know we're going to be messing with the the Pantheon. We know that that that we've been told that
47:41
that's not changing. going to Zerith Orordis where they got their stuff uh seems like a really good
47:47
play for us to figure out how to unmake whatever they're doing. So, I would
47:53
think instead that Zerith Ortis is going to be a place we go like Matt said, not something that sort of ricochets in.
47:59
That said, I think Go ahead. No, I'm just agreeing with you. That's my noises.
48:06
That said, I do think that there will come a another neutral city, but I
48:12
really don't think the Kieran tour are going to be necessarily uh like the lynch pin of it. They're not
48:18
going to be the driving force behind it. If anything, they may have a few mages that show up uh that help us out. Maybe
48:25
it'll be Kaggar. Maybe Kagar will finally take a vacation and go on that date he's been putting off. Uh maybe
48:31
maybe it'll be other members of of the curator that have that have, you know, stepped aside. Maybe it'll be uh why
48:38
can't I remember his name? Uh Dragon Boyfriend. Uh Caligos. Caligos. Wow. There we go. Um maybe.
48:45
By the way, Dragon Boyfriend is going to be one of the best games when it comes out. It's going to be like Sword Dungeon
48:51
times 100. There you go. Can't wait for Dragon Boyfriend. But I think I think it's more likely
48:56
that we'll be uncovering the secrets. will be going there. It may wind up becoming a hub city much in the way that
49:02
Dornagal did. Um I'm going to actually stop for a second and pimp a previous episode of Lore
49:08
Watch. Yeah, go right ahead. Um in fact, I think it was last week, but it might have been a couple ago when we talked about how it would be cool if
49:14
all the various nonhorde and alliance factions got together into a great big
49:20
council of let's just save the world and stop worrying about who gets to be in
49:25
charge of it. where you've got like the Kieran tour and the Senarian circle and the uh what's it the earthn ring is that
49:31
what the shaman is and you know the death knights of acuras and the the pal
49:36
just all these groups get together and just have their big you know like forget these guys let's let's and for that
49:43
matter the alliance and horde could have people there too uh I don't say I don't have a problem with that but just some nice big everybody get together this is
49:50
our United Nations place that would be kind of nice if they brought that back
49:55
yeah Actually, they didn't do it before. So, let's do that now. Let's let's let's get one of those because we really do
50:00
need a place where when bad stuff is happening, we don't have to worry about dumb infighting.
50:06
Uh that's just my that's just my thing that I I mentioned before and I want to mention again. No, I tend to agree. Um but I do think
50:14
it's more likely that we'll have other main cities that get introduced before
50:19
anything involving this. Um, I do think that we're going to see uh the Iraqi
50:25
Empire uh before too long and whatever's there is going to we are going to have a foothold there in some capacity.
50:32
Don't know what that's going to look like yet, but that will probably be a player for for hub zone or new hub zone.
50:39
Uh again, I don't think that there's much hope of Zerith Zerith being
50:45
teleported in. Not because I don't think it's a good idea, but I just it doesn't seem practical. The scope of it, the
50:53
scale of it, the fact that it's referenced by Odin in such a
50:58
huge manner, like it's that it's it's unfathomable. Uh, and while that's him just maybe, you know, thinking that
51:05
we're idiots, which is very likely the case, um,
51:11
it's also very likely that it is just that huge. We don't know how big the
51:17
first ones were. We've seen some of their works already, right? We've seen some of the marvels that they've created
51:22
already to begin with. And they're not insignificant works. They are pretty large. And
51:28
yeah, like even just Oraos by itself is pretty freaking big. And Oros is likely just the top of an ancient construct
51:34
that they made. Yep. And I mean, it's very likely that uh Zerith Ordis is probably about as big
51:39
as Zerith Morta. Mortise like which we didn't see all of. We didn't see all of
51:46
so there's tons of possibilities. I do think we are going to go there, but
51:52
I don't know that it's going to be teleported to the to the prime material plane or or where we are. So, I don't
51:58
think that makes a whole lot of sense. Now, that said, I would like to see them
52:04
address the second part of your question here. With Dollaron destroyed, you can
52:09
go back technically in in universe to every order hall except that one. I'd
52:16
like to see what they do with that. And I'd like to see them prog like that would be an interesting little maybe not
52:22
necessarily a side story, but give the mages their due. Give them some place to call home again. At least I
52:29
I would love it if there was a quest in whatever expansion where we go to the like the ruins of Doerin and pick up a
52:36
rock and it turns out that the entire order hall is in that rock. So you just take the rock somewhere and you're like
52:42
boom. Okay, it's back. Like what? Like they the entire order hall was in a
52:48
rock. What? How did you do that magic? I mean what are you talking about? But just you know I do think it sucks that
52:53
they don't have their order hall anymore. So, I would like them to get something uh that that that just feel
52:58
kind of bad. Like I can still go to the warrior order hall. I don't do so because Odin is there, but I could. So,
53:06
yeah, that that that would I think Joe is totally right on that one. Yeah. And then uh as far as the garrison
53:12
of spell breakers is concerned, I would love more than anything else to see
53:18
spell breakers in the game. I I mention this a lot. I've mentioned this uh
53:24
probably every single time we've ever mentioned, hey, what class would you like to see put into the game? Uh, and
53:31
it is invariably spell breakers is at the top of my list. I thought that they were one of the really one of the
53:37
coolest classes in Warcraft that we just never got to see and I would have loved
53:44
to see them implemented. We've talked about how you can implement them, whether they could be a subdivision of warrior and paladin or they could be a
53:49
subdivision of both. Um, but I would even if we can't play them, I'd like to
53:55
see more of them in game because especially now, especially hopefully
54:01
after the events of uh, you know, Midnight here, we're going to go ahead and see maybe
54:09
some redoubled efforts in how do you fight against magic? Because the spell breakers were absolutely like boss at
54:15
that. They could nullify your magic like crazy. Uh, and they were specifically
54:22
made and designed to fight exactly that. So, I'd love to see them actually be
54:29
represented in game and be represented as a force. I don't know how you feel about that,
54:35
Matt. I feel like if Blizzard ever wants to control your life, they should just introduce Tuscar spell breakers.
54:42
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at that point, you Yeah. No, I can't. I'm going to go play
54:47
I'm going to go play some Guild Wars 2. Are you Joe or are you going to play this Tuscar Spellbreaker?
54:54
Cut to Joe on you know just literally on the ground like you know grabbing their
55:00
feet just weeping going yes please get off my legs Joe please.
55:06
Uh definitely a distinct possibility but I don't know that there's much more to add to that cuz we're not going to know
55:11
what happens for a little while. Um I suspect we're going to find out. I don't want to say soon because I don't know. I
55:18
don't know what the answer to that's going to be. Well, let's put this way. It's midepptember. Yeah. Um before now and December, I wouldn't
55:26
expect any major news. Uh once January rolls around and they're
55:31
going to start getting seriously into stuff like the beta testing because we know that there's some kind of alpha
55:37
test out right now, but we don't know. It's just it's a friends and family thing. it's internal until like an
55:43
actual beta test starts or or an alpha test that actually is open to somebody. We're not going to know much at all.
55:51
Yeah. But I think that's going to do it for today, folks. Uh again, if you have
55:57
questions for this or any of our podcasts, be sure to send those into podcastwatch.com.
56:03
Specify the show that it is for and the subject line as well as any special pronunciation of your name. Uh if you want to hit us up on Discord, we have
56:08
the Q and podcast questions channel set aside for everybody. Same rules apply. If you are a Patreon subscriber, you can
56:13
go ahead and sub on the Patreon Q and podcast questions channel in Discord. We have that set aside as a way of saying thank you to our subscribers. We tend to
56:20
look there first for all of your questions and comments, show ideas,
56:25
whatever you got. Uh but yeah, I think that's going to do it, folks. We'll see
56:30
you next week. [Music]