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Is Dimensius the last of the Void Lords (and what does that mean for The Last Titan?)
Oct 8, 2025
The ultimate fight of The War Within, Dimensius is a hulking purple Void Lord, and several developer interviews have led us to believe he may be the last one. Or, at least, that's what two of our listeners asked about -- is he the last Void Lord? And if he is, what does that even mean? So Matt and Joe start off explaining the Void and Void Lords a bit, before making a turn -- in the way only Lore Watch can. If Dimensius is the last Void Lord, which weren't not sold on, what does that mean as we make our way toward the final expansion of the arc, which we already know is The Last Titan? Seems a bit convenient to have a whole bunch of "lasts" in one place, doesn't it.
And what might happen if the last Void Lord and the last Titan meet?
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0:00
[Music]
0:11
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round table free form discussion about lore in our favorite media. I'm your host Joe
0:16
Pres, one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch. And I've got my marvelous co-host with me today, Matt
0:22
Rossi. How you doing today, Matt? I'm okay. Hey, in today's day and age, okay is all
0:29
we can hope for some days. But we're going to do a little bit more than okay stuff today. Instead, we're going to be
0:35
answering your questions, our wonderful listeners. If you have questions for this or any of our podcasts, I want you
0:41
to be sure to go ahead and send those in. You can send them into podcastwatch.com.
0:46
Ask that you specify the show in the subject line that you want it sent in for, as well as any special pronunciation of your name. Uh, if you
0:53
want to hit us on Discord, we have the Q and Podcast Questions channel. Same rules apply for everyone there. And if
1:00
you are a Patreon subscriber, you can hit us up on the Patreon Q and Podcast Questions channel. We tend to look there
1:05
first as a way of saying thank you for helping us keep the lights on. Our first question is actually going to be a
1:11
little bit of a twofer. Uh, since two folks actually wind up asking roughly the same question. So, I'm going to go
1:16
ahead and read the questions and then we're going to go ahead and uh kind of get into it. Uh, so it's what did Medson
1:22
mean when he said Dementius was the last void lord? I'm fairly sure that until now they've only referred to it as the
1:28
void lord Dementius. That's from Stouts. And this one comes from Paris.
1:34
Paristolith. Uh, did I hear Metsson correctly? And Dementius is was the last void lord.
1:41
What in the heck could have happened to them? As the middle bit of a trilogy, it's typically the darkest bit. What if
1:46
Zalot succeeds? What does she want? Will Azeroth be a void Titan going into the Last Titan? If so, really Sargeras.
1:54
Um, so before we get into any of the tinfoil hating or any of the the odd speculation, I do want to throw it out
2:01
there that sometimes Metson just says stuff. Um, we have a track record of
2:06
plenty of his uh interviews and and plenty of his stage uh appearances at uh
2:12
Blizzcon where he has said things that are not necessarily completely accurate
2:18
or true, but in that moment is what he said. And then they go back and they either clean it up or it wasn't really
2:25
the full truth of what it was there. So, I will say take that with a little grain of salt. It could have also just been a
2:31
misspeaking. We don't know yet. That said, there what is the possibility if
2:37
Dementius is the last void lord? The interesting thing for me is that the void lords are typically characterized
2:44
as not able to come into our reality. That they're not able to essentially
2:50
transcend into the prime material plane that we exist on, which is the whole
2:56
reason that the old gods were like spat into existence to begin with. Now, maybe
3:01
they figured out a way around that. Maybe Dementius did happen to to understand how to move around that, but
3:07
it seemed to me that in both cases with dealing with Dementius in the past and
3:12
dealing with him now is that he had to be summoned and given not necessarily a
3:18
form, but it required an immense amount of energy to manifest even an iota of
3:24
him into reality. And I don't know that
3:30
we've ever really heard of many of the other void lords of any of them at all really. We just know that they exist.
3:37
But like the void, there could be an infinite number of them. We have no idea. There could be one of them. There
3:42
could be seven. Who knows? But I don't know if necessarily Dementius was the
3:48
last one of them. He may be the last of the ones that were able to breach our reality.
3:56
I don't know. What do you think, Matt? He's a refugee.
4:02
All right. The other void lords got eaten by the
4:07
devourers that are eating everything. They've attacked the void first because the void is the least likely to be able
4:15
to reach out for help cuz practically nobody likes them.
4:20
Like the void is the most even more than the fell. It's the most actively
4:26
despised of the cosmological forces by most sentient beings.
4:33
So, who's who's going to come save the void? If you hear the void lords are getting killed, who's going to come, you
4:39
know, well, we got to stop that. It's not likely to happen. Yeah. Do you think do you think that any
4:44
of the servants of the void would have been able to like feel or or understand that to any capacity?
4:50
I mean, if it happened before they were born. Like here's the problem with the void. Does time work there?
4:59
Like we don't know. Like we know that time doesn't work in in the twisting nether like you you can live a thousand
5:06
years in there and come back out and it's been 20 years here. How do we know
5:12
that that's not the case for other places? How do we know that the void has time as we understand it? Mhm.
5:19
And I'm suggesting this is a possibility because it implies that, you know, one
5:27
possibility is what I said about the the void lords being consumed by the devourers. Here's another possibility.
5:33
What if Dementius aids them? Like Dementius wants to go from being a
5:39
being of pure, you know, unrealized potentiality to an actual presence,
5:46
right? like he wants to come into our reality and become real. Like that's what will happen if he
5:52
steps through all the way. He will go from being an avatar or a fragment or
5:58
all the different versions of Dementius we've seen to being an actual being. And
6:04
keep in mind too when we're the whole deal with Dementius in the most recent patch is that he's was literally broken
6:10
apart when what happened to Caresh happened. like he was fragmented and his
6:17
his various fragments cast out into the wind and it's taken this long for everybody
6:23
to reconnect enough of them to to bring him forth. I mean I don't know what Metson meant. I
6:31
I as you've just pointed out sometimes Chris Mson sometimes Chris Mson starts talking and the next thing you know he's
6:37
come up with a completely different origin for the radar like you know the man kind of like
6:42
yeah he kind of freewheels and that's cool quite frankly it's something I do so I understand it but at the same time
6:50
it does make you know taking his statements is going what does he mean by that I
6:55
I don't know but I do think we can it's pretty easy to think about possibilities
7:00
And one of those possibilities is that in the the whole do you remember the
7:06
when that we found the the you know hidden guests back in uh Shadowlands
7:13
and there was that whole deal about how they had agents in every you know the
7:18
the Nathan basically have agents everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
7:25
it it does not I I I find myself wondering if anybody's ever stopped to think about the fact that Denathrius
7:33
and Denathrism aren't loyal to the Shadowlands either.
7:38
And if they're not loyal to the Shadowlands, they could just as easily be infiltrating the Shadowlands for
7:44
somebody, right? poo.
7:50
Like, we've been thinking of the devourers as a mindless force of consumption, but what if they're more
7:56
like a like a flaw, like a crack in the creation? Um, do you
8:02
remember like I I I don't know enough about Pokemon to be really absolutely certain about this, but I think in the
8:08
first Pokemon games there was a there was a glitch
8:13
that was literally became a boss you could fight. And imagine if that was what we're
8:19
dealing with here. when when reality was created by the uh first ones, they built
8:25
it incomplete because they, you know, didn't get time to finish it maybe or
8:31
they realized they couldn't make it. You know, there's the old saying that, you know, you can you can't really ever have
8:38
every set of numbers will always have at least one problem that needs to be solved by something outside of that set.
8:44
And that keeps coming into my head when thinking about the whole idea of the various cosmological forces. The fact
8:51
that the uh the Shadowlands version of Chronicle when it came out had the
8:58
reversed ory of this of the cosmic forces. It represented it in the in the
9:03
opposite way to like a mirror image almost of the way it had been presented in Chronicle.
9:10
And since it's not a strictly speaking, it's not just a flat two dimensional object. You could you could imagine that
9:17
going in all sorts of different ways. You could have each piece going in different places.
9:23
I keep thinking about that when I think about what you know if Dementius is the
9:28
last void lord I mean Dementius might have always been
9:34
the last void lord because he was broken up into billions of little pieces.
9:40
Yeah. Was each of those pieces a void lord? And we've seen entities called void lords or void gods that were naru that
9:48
had gone completely dark side. Yep. And so why were they void lords?
9:54
Yeah, I I think part of it also challenges our understanding of what a void lord is, right? Like
9:59
Yeah, absolutely. So, and again, infinite possibilities because we keep focusing on the void.
10:04
But one of the other things that I keep thinking about is titans don't die, right? We we have learned that the only
10:11
one that has actually died wasn't supposed to die, or at least that's not what happens. And when the rest of the
10:18
pantheon was killed, their souls existed. They were able to send them places. They had some level of agency.
10:24
Um yeah, Nudana got to send them shoot them everywhere. uh with you know like Anrar going to a planet of Aloon uh for
10:32
recovery like being hunted by Sargeras and and Agamar uh twisted Agamar then
10:39
being contained inside of the torture chamber to be uh broken down and essentially uh re-educated into a family
10:47
again because that's all that Sargeras really truly wanted. Uh they didn't die.
10:53
Like they they they did not die. And as a matter of fact, like we're going to be dealing with them. We know that for a
10:59
fact. Um but we saw them. We literally saw them at the end of Legion. Um
11:08
who knows a void can die. They even showed off their weird ability
11:13
to avoid death by bringing you back from death. Yeah. While they were fighting Argus.
11:21
And and that same idea can be applied essentially if we look at the dementia's
11:27
quest line and everything. They do not live. They do not die. They do not die. They are outside the
11:32
cycle. Yep. Yeah. And again, the whole idea that
11:37
Dementius was broken into pieces and still was able to be revived. Yes.
11:43
It required the dark heart and an immense amount of energy and souls to stitch him back together. But that's
11:50
exactly what we're fighting. We fight a manifestation of him on Caresh in the
11:55
Mana Forge. And then phase two and phase three exist in the void. They exist in
12:04
well phase two is in the void and phase three is in the actual dark heart
12:09
itself, which at this point might as well be a pocket dimension of the void. Um,
12:15
he's immense inside of this phase two. He's immensed phase one, but it's again
12:21
he's not dead. And even when you defeat him at the end of phase three, he's not
12:27
dead. He's just imprisoned, right? He's in the dark heart. He's
12:32
imprisoned in the dark heart. Zelat has him and access to his power. So, I don't
12:39
know that even a void lord can truly die. And also the words the last of
12:45
something doesn't necessarily mean the others don't exist. It could also be
12:51
referring to the fact that he is the youngest void lord. The most I mean how many times have we heard
12:57
Superman called the last son of Krypton? Exactly. And we run into a bunch more Kryptonians, but they're all in the
13:02
Phantom Zone, so they don't count or in the bottled city or whatever. Like Yeah. Like but I mean it's the same principle
13:08
with like I mean we can go to the last air bender, right? Yes. Ang is the last of his kind. He's also the youngest one.
13:16
But then the air benders are reborn. He reestablishes it because not all of them
13:22
were actually gone. Not all of them were actually dead. The people the the air tribe isn't all
13:27
air benders. It was it had a lot of air benders, but he could manage to go out and find enough of them and bring them
13:33
to one place and reestablish a society again, right? A whole nation. Absolutely. So the word the last of can
13:40
be very deceptive in in literature and storytelling in video games because it
13:46
can have so many multiple meanings. It could be the the the most recent of a lineage. It could be, you know, the last
13:52
one that was created. It could be the last of a surviving race. Um it could
13:57
also be the least of the p most powerful too, right? So, we've heard like N'oth
14:04
being referred to as the weakest old god, and I'm air quoting that because,
14:09
you know, intelligence is a power, but he was the last of his kin, the least of his kin. So, like, it could mean any of
14:17
those things, and all of them could potentially be correct here, which I think is absolutely fascinating. But
14:23
personally, I don't think that Dementius is
14:30
I I don't think that Dementius is the last last remnants of the void lords. I
14:37
think there's more to it. And I think that that's part of the reason why
14:42
Zealot is doing what she's doing. Either she's looking to elevate herself to that
14:48
level of power to take the place of a void lord or she's trying to to power up
14:53
or resurrect others potentially, right? Maybe she has other fragments of them.
14:58
Maybe she's talked about how she doesn't want to serve Dementius, right? She's talked about how she definitely didn't
15:05
see the old gods as powerful or servants. They were lesser than. They were parasites. Um they were bugs in
15:12
comparison to the true void lords. like all these factors. It's it's it's hard
15:18
for me to accept that Dementius may be the final one or that they would be the last one.
15:28
Other thoughts, Matt? Um I think I kind of ranted quite a bit
15:34
there, so I'm a little tank's a little empty, but I will say that
15:40
we're also ignoring the fact that
15:46
What does it mean? The void is the place where anything is
15:52
possible, right? You know the thousand truths. It also means, you know, nothing is real
16:00
there, right? You can't be something
16:06
if you're nothing. Like it almost feels like you can't
16:12
really even have void lords until like somebody is doing what Dementius is doing and trying to like
16:18
make themselves a real thing. What if the reason that the that Zalat
16:25
is so disgusted by the old gods is that they were void lords
16:32
that threw themselves into reality and then this is what they turned into when
16:38
they existed in reality because the the void lords lack something that
16:45
the Titans have in spades. follow through.
16:50
The Titans are not creative. They're not innovative. They're not imaginative. But they can make things.
16:58
They do make things. They make things all the time. Yeah. Have we ever found anything that old
17:05
gods have actually made and not just twisted? Even the things that are born
17:11
out of their flesh bodies, their flesh bodies are just the places they land on getting twisted by them. They literally
17:18
just inhabit the world. They assimilate and re and they assimilate and repurpose.
17:23
Yeah. So, they don't make anything. I'm still convinced that they didn't even make the the curse of flesh. So,
17:31
what if that's what the old gods are? What if they're just what happens when a void lord tries to become real is it
17:38
turns into a disappointing mutated nonsense because they have all these possibilities and they want them all to
17:45
be real at the same time. And you can't do that in reality.
17:50
Yeah. And I, you know, thinking about that, I I I think about another thing regarding that where all of the
17:58
interesting or different manifestations we've had of the void outside of like
18:04
really Zotath's like caporeal form, which really isn't technically void.
18:09
She's technically just riding around in a corpse suit using void power. Um but
18:14
almost every other instance outside of a naru in the cycle we've had has been ephemeral. It has been temporary. It has
18:22
been uh something that is a projection or that reality the reality that it is
18:29
using exists in a layer transposed on top of wherever we are. Right. Much like
18:35
a pound. Yes. And and much like the way that the Shadowlands is the our first
18:40
introduction to it, not the expansion, but our first introduction to the Shadowlands technically when we die in
18:47
game for the first time, but also the Lich King's little pocket of it where
18:52
he's training death knights. That's reality laid over that. It's laid
18:58
over reality, right? It's it's a desaturated like ethereal version of the world
19:06
you're on. What if the void is capable of doing something similar and that's
19:11
how it projects itself? And so what you kill or what you destroy isn't actually
19:17
being killed or destroyed. know that with dementia in the first part is at least and Matt can correct me if I'm
19:22
wrong but I remember the original literature and and again they may have changed this and and I don't think but I
19:28
don't think they have is that it wasn't a full manifestation of dementious in
19:33
the physical realm it was essentially an avatar if anything else like it was
19:39
still linked yeah it was it was essentially like him they like when the avatar of Sargeras came through
19:45
it's very similar to that it was a sending of dementia It wasn't actually Dementius, right? Which is why we dealt with him in
19:53
uh cuz it was in Burning Crusade, right? The first time that we did we dealt with uh air quote Dementius.
20:00
Yeah, it was in Manifford. I can't remember which Man, but it was in Manifford. Yeah. Uh very similar to this where they
20:07
were using the power to draw a manifestation of him forward, right? It's sort of the same thing. And I think
20:13
it's it's fascinating and and I'm really curious to see more about it because
20:18
again Dementius isn't dead. He's just in the dark heart. Now there was a second
20:23
part of this question for Paristolith where saying that the middle part of the tril trilogy is typically the darkest
20:30
bit and that's usually true. Uh you can see that when you look at like examples like Lord of the Rings uh that the
20:37
trilogy of the fellowship is probably a really good example of that. The second book, the twi the twin towers or the two
20:44
towers, excuse me, are some of the darkest elements of the story. They're some of the most despair.
20:50
They're some of the the the deepest darkest moments these characters go through.
20:55
Well, it's where you hit the point where you're setting up the climax. Exactly. Because you have to do that for
21:01
the the bring home. And many are thinking that Midnight's going to follow that trajectory. But there's another element to it,
21:08
right? Um, this is still a game and even though it's part of a trilogy, if the
21:15
game itself is just downer after downer after downer, people aren't going to be interested in it. You have to have
21:21
bright moments in that tragedy uh in order to sort of set up for the third
21:27
act. Now, in this particular case, the question of what if Zalotas succeeds,
21:32
what does she want? And will Azeroth be a void to void Titan going into the last Titan?
21:39
Maybe. Right. Zealot, we don't know what she wants. Her her minations are alien
21:46
to us in so much as we think we understand her. We think we understand
21:51
some bits of her from the lore walking. We think we understand some bits with her with what she shared with us while
21:56
we were questing on Caresh. But she is one an unreliable person to
22:03
even converse with because she is a void entity. Um, and even if she's not lying,
22:09
omission and obuscation are still there, right? Like look at the way she stoked
22:16
the fires between uh Locust Walker and Yria. And she didn't say anything false.
22:22
Nothing she knows how to tell the truth. She knows how to tell the truth maliciously. Yes. you know, the the element of
22:30
malicious compliance almost. Um, but to what she wants, the only answer we know
22:35
of concretely is power. We don't know what the endgame is, but think about the
22:41
actions that we've seen Zealot take since they've been freed from the blade.
22:47
One, they've been gathering power in essence every chance they get, making
22:52
deals with other entities in order to obtain that more power. Look at dragon
22:57
flight with Iriticron and traveling back in time to Gacron and siphoning the
23:04
essence of Gacron into the Dark Heart.
23:09
Interestingly enough, and for those of you at home that are are keeping score, not a retcon because we never knew how
23:16
the corruption of Gacron didn't spread after Gacron was dead because that body was necrotic AF.
23:23
Uh yeah, it was already dead. Really? Yeah, he was dead. He was basically just a a writhing pile
23:29
of, you know, like out of control mutation power that was every time he'd eat something, he'd spit it back out as
23:36
as an undead. Yes. That's just he was just an undead factory and and and a a corpse laying in the
23:43
middle of the the field at Gacron's Fall. You can't tell me that the bugs and and uh fauna that would have eaten
23:51
it uh or have tried to car like carry on with their their carry cycle.
23:56
Yeah. Well, it might not even have stayed down. Yeah. You know, it might just got up. I mean,
24:02
what it practically was undead already. Now it's all the way undead, you know,
24:07
but but with the power channeling through it. In this case, we know that it was a little bit of old god uh magic
24:14
mixed with titan magic cuz that's that's what happened. We know that for a fact now. Um being sucked into the dark
24:21
heart, it stopped Gacron from rising back up or any of the uh potential offshoot mutations that would have
24:28
occurred from that body just festering there gone. But now Zaltth has that power and we don't know the deal that
24:35
she made with Eriticron. We haven't heard from Ericron since that moment. Like there's been no inkling about him
24:42
here and we've been in his domain at this point uh for the entire time. We've
24:47
been underground the whole time. This feels like something he may have been interested in if he was here. But we
24:54
know he went through a void gate with her. She siphoned all of the power of Doaron into herself. She took a chunk
25:01
out of Khadgar even though we got him back. Uh he's still not at 100%. We don't know how much power she consumed
25:06
of his uh or how many other mages she consumed or how many other magical items she consumed. Uh we know that Giwix was
25:14
able to uh repair it, but we don't know
25:19
how much she gathered in between there and then. We also don't know if she used any of the black blood to power up. We
25:24
know that the black blood was used to heal it cuz that's what Gywix used in order to fuse it back together.
25:31
We don't know if she used any of that to sort of suck it back up into the the the dark heart.
25:38
But we know, you know what we're forgetting too during all this while we're talking about all this stuff?
25:43
Fragments of Dementius not didn't just attack Outland. No, they didn't. A fragment a fragment of Dementius
25:50
attacked uh I can't pronounce this name. Um, Carora, Carora, I I think it's that.
25:57
And the Naru Toué, who's the one from the Nether Temple, uh, if you remember
26:03
that, the priest quest, uh, back in Legion of all places, Té basically blew himself up into pure
26:13
light in order to stop Dementius. And in the
26:20
process of doing that, he he still managed to maintain his light, but but one of his fragments got eaten by the
26:26
dementious fragment. And isn't it weird that in order to stop
26:32
Dementius's fragments, Té fragmented itself?
26:37
Like it's like fractal now. We're getting to the point where these things keep breaking each other around.
26:43
And the piece of Té was basically taken to Argus. And it was one of those
26:49
things, you know, you guys know about the the whole shard deal with the, you know, the Dreni finding crystals and
26:55
talking to them. And next thing you know, the Naru were talking to them. Um that's a whole deal
27:01
with uh the the Netherite um temple. One of the one of the artifacts is that
27:07
piece. And it's just it's wild to think about. We know that the Naru are both light and
27:14
shadow. They they switch from one to the other. They go from void to light. We know that Aloon is in that same camp.
27:21
Yeah. And Aloon can kill an old god. Yeah. Just just safe. Well, I shouldn't
27:28
say safely. We don't know what happened. But like we have no idea how safe it was, but we know we know that Aloon can eradicate
27:33
it in the same way that a Titan Well, probably better than a Titan can. Yeah. And since we now know that, you
27:41
know, a Naru, one of the great Naru did it, this is like there's a lot to
27:46
Dementius and the void lords that we don't really understand. Like void lords
27:52
themselves could be fractal in nature. Like if the if we think about the void
27:58
as the place of a thousand truths, I mean each truth could be an could be a void lord.
28:04
Yeah. And at the same time, none of them are real because that's how
28:10
it works. So yeah, I don't I the whole deal with Dementius and the fact that
28:15
he's called Dementius the all devouring means he eats everything.
28:20
Well, right. So thinking about that, right? And and going back to something before I get into the other Zatas stuff and you
28:28
mentioned this earlier, where did the devourers come from?
28:35
We don't know how long they've existed. Yeah, we don't know how We don't know where they come from. What if they're born from the fragments
28:42
of Dementius that blew up the first time? Bits of him flung into a reality. They
28:51
look bioorganic in nature. They remind me a lot of stuff
28:56
we saw in the Black Empire. They have Kitan. They have multiple eyes. They
29:02
evolve. They have they have the flesh. They're like Sha. But what if what if what if that is the
29:09
result of Dementius's form being exploded and those fragments being
29:14
pushed into our reality? What if this is something that the first ones oversaw or
29:20
saw happening, you know, millennia ago at the dawn of time and the dawn of all
29:26
creation. And they saw that from the Dementius's body would be born an
29:32
alldevouring force that would continue to multiply and grow, consuming
29:39
everything in its wake. Dimension, even possibly other void lords,
29:44
even potentially other void lords going through all because we know that they can travel through realities. We know
29:49
that they can travel through pain plains of existence. We know that the void is able to do that. We saw that with the
29:55
void in invading the Shadowlands in Bastion, we see the void pretty much everywhere. Um, anywhere that the light
30:03
there there's light, there can be void cuz every time the light shines, a shadow is cast, right? But I keep
30:10
thinking about this. It it's almost like what if Dementius was Galactis?
30:16
What if that was his purpose? We call him the all devouring, but what
30:21
if that was the whole point? What if that was his void aspect? And I
30:28
keep thinking about the void lords. Maybe they had aspects or specializations
30:34
kind of like the titans do because the titans certainly did. They all have very
30:40
special functions, right? What if that was Dementius's? And what
30:45
if the devourers are born of his uh pushed out flesh? Now, I I didn't mean
30:50
to cut you off there, so you can feel free to go anywhere you want to go with this. Well, I was just thinking about the
30:56
Primus, actually. Um, remember when the Primus opened a portal to Zerith Mortise and devourers immediately began showing
31:03
up? Like they got in through that portal? Mhm. And they began devouring the first one's
31:10
magic. Oh, I do. And what does that mean when
31:18
they do that? That the magic was making them mutate and fall apart, right? Like
31:23
what's his name? Crixius the devour, the voracious. Um, he actually had mites.
31:32
You know, it's it's weird to think about all these different aspects that might be related.
31:39
But what if you know if Dementius could be conceived of as having if the
31:45
devourers we know that fragments of Dementius are out there destroying worlds to this day. Even the one we just
31:52
fought was basically just an extremely big and powerful a lot of the fragments
31:57
put together version of Dementius. It doesn't mean it was all of them.
32:02
And what if, you know, taking Joe what Joe just said, what if the devourers
32:07
that we've run into already were the pieces of Dimensions that couldn't be brought together because they weren't
32:14
they weren't in the void and they weren't in on Azeroth. like the Shadowlands. You couldn't travel from
32:21
the Shadowlands to Azeroth without ridiculous levels of magical power like say
32:30
or knowing one of the ways in and out like Venari does. Yeah. But Venari is kind of getting in
32:36
on an old clause. She's she's kind of using old cosmology to get in. That's
32:41
why she's in the void. I mean, not the void. That's why she's in the mall because the mall is like this isn't the
32:48
way the mall used to be. She's sort of sneaking in by the the access point that that no one thought even thought to
32:54
check because the place was so destroyed. But thinking about it in terms of like
33:03
if the devourers are related to Dementius, which you know there's at least the word devour involved in here,
33:09
so we we got something. If they are related to to Dementius,
33:14
what about all the ones that you know if Dementius was destroyed and fragmented and pieces of him ended up entering
33:22
other realities where they turned into things like the devourers? What are the are there devourer type things in every
33:28
other place? Like we know that the void was originally formed by eddies and the
33:35
light. Are there entities like hanging out invading the you know the realm of
33:40
light whatever it's called doing to there what the devours were doing in the shadowlands
33:47
like is all of reality essentially slowly decomposing because these things
33:52
are eating out its very its very structure and I come back to that bit where the
34:00
primus opens the portal and you almost immediately get devourers and and What
34:05
magic was Primusy using again? Domination.
34:11
Yeah. What if the more you try to dominate this stuff, the more you try to control it rather than let it exist and
34:18
interact as part of like I'm I'm led to think again about how all the elementals
34:24
of Azeroth with the uh with they were all fighting
34:30
because there wasn't enough to go around and like there wasn't enough spirit energy. They were starving and so they
34:37
fought tooth and nail. each of the elemental lords was fighting to try and destroy and and dominate the others.
34:45
And then you look at the way that oh bully hell Draanor sorry I couldn't
34:52
remember what the heck to call it. I was trying to call it Outland so badly. Uh we looked at the way the elementals were on Draanor. They didn't fight at all.
34:59
There was no Titan, no World Soul. And we look at what happens on on
35:04
Caresh. The reason that uh the Kesh that decided to do it um including Nexus
35:11
Walker decided to to destroy the planet was to protect the world soul.
35:19
They didn't want the world soul to get touched by Dementius. Was it because
35:25
they thought Dementius would eat it or were was it more that they were afraid of what would happen if Dementius and
35:32
the world soul came together? Like what would you get if that happens?
35:38
See, my running do you get that void title everyone's afraid of or do you get something even worse? So that that's my running theory, right?
35:44
My running theory is that you kind of hit it there is that you would get a void titan. you would get a physical
35:51
manifestation of Dementius in our world because I keep
35:57
going back to this concept of it takes an immense amount of power, soul power,
36:03
energy of living force and living things to bring Dementius forth to try to
36:11
summon it in sound like anything we may have experienced in the past. sound like it sounds like house Targaryas couldn't
36:16
get through the the portal in the well of eternity even when they had it in the well of eternity.
36:22
Yep. He couldn't come through. Uh a slight nick from a magic axe kept him from
36:27
coming through. How how much power did it take to pull uh uh why can't I remember uh the his
36:34
general's name? Kill Jaden. Kill Jaden. Yeah. Yeah. How much how much energy did it take to get Kill Jaden through? How much
36:40
energy did it take to pull Archamon through? both of them like Archamond required the destruction of Doerin.
36:47
Like they actually had to like they had to break into Doorin, tap into that power from the book in order to summon
36:53
kill Jaden who then destroyed Doerin to you know just because he was a jerk. But
37:00
that's a significant amount of power right there just to get that book. How much power is the in
37:05
Jaden? Actually used the whole Sunwell. He did and still can get the whole Sunwell. Yeah. But how much
37:11
how much power is in a world soul? Uh, a Titan's worth. And what happens,
37:18
however much that is, what have we seen happen when a fragment of that power was pushed through a
37:25
system that was not designed for? Yeah, we saw it collapse the Shadowlands. The whole deal with the
37:31
Arbiter just went, you know, went null and void. It was like, you know, you know, error, error, ask again later
37:38
because that's not supposed to be here. it. And we don't know how much of Argus that was.
37:43
No, we don't. Yeah, we don't know. We have no idea how much of Argus that was. We just know it was enough to really wreck the Arbiter's
37:50
day. Yeah. And then going with that, if Dementius was to succeed and manifest
37:57
enough that it was able to consume the world soul of Kesh, which itself is also
38:03
fragmented, by the way. Um Oh, yeah. I know. What what would that have resulted
38:10
in? What danger would that have caused? Or would it have been the lesser of two
38:15
evils? And and it's an interesting thing because if the devourers were born of
38:20
the fragmentation of Dementius or if they're related to him in any capacity,
38:25
would they have been born? Interesting. Well, here's the thing, too. It's interesting that we first see the devourers because the uh brokers are
38:34
making us capture them. Yeah. And the brokers are etherealss.
38:41
They know a thing or two about about Dementius and about Kesh. Fragments of direct and fragments of
38:47
Dementius because they're the ones that helped to fragment him. They have literally spent a lifetime being souls walking this planet or
38:55
walking this reality, right? and and as you pointed out, they're the ones who
39:00
have like members of that group still pray to the world soul even though it's
39:05
fragmented. Fanatically, there's a whole storyline and and honestly, I encourage you all if you have not done
39:12
it yet to play through all of the campaign questing up through the Oasis.
39:18
Um, and then do the EcoDoo Aldani raid
39:23
or uh dungeon after finishing everything because you get such a interesting
39:30
perspective on what the relationship is between
39:36
these etherealss, these devoted etherealss to the world soul and the
39:41
fact that they were able to talk to it without turning themselves into crystals, you know.
39:46
Yeah. They just had to turn themselves into souls. Well, they they know they could do it before they were souls. That's Yeah, I know. I've just been being
39:52
sarcastic. It was hell to have to turn them into souls. Ah, don't don't confuse our listeners at home. Um, no, they're
39:57
smarter than that. But it's it's fascinating. Well, plus think about we were talking
40:04
before. You just made me think this. We don't know what Zolotath wants, right? We have no idea aside from power, but we
40:10
don't know what she wants with that power. That's where I that's where this this this train of thought started going. Please, here's something I was just thinking
40:16
about. If we accept that that Zealot is
40:22
unsatisfied with the events as they are happening for one reason or another, the way things are right now is not
40:29
satisfying to Zalot. What if she's decided
40:35
it's in a way the jailer remind this reminds me of the jailer in that the jailer decided that the first ones were
40:41
wrong. Mhm. Yep. and he could do a better job organizing reality than they did.
40:47
What if Zalat has decided that the void lords were wrong? This whole making, you
40:53
know, old gods deal. That was a terrible idea. I'm I got a better idea cuz we cuz
40:59
you pointed out Dementius is in there, right? She's in the the dark heart right now and she's got access to it.
41:05
Yep. But the Gacran stuff didn't come out. Nope. Well, well, that we know of. We don't know what was released in the
41:11
cracking or honestly what happened afterwards because don't forget she disappeared for a while before she
41:17
showed back up. Yeah, she tried to get it fixed in uh in Goblin. But I mean, no, I'm just saying there's
41:23
there was there was a time between her disappearing with Iriticron and her showing back up that we don't know what
41:28
happened in between. Yeah. So, he might have taken it out. She might have put it somewhere else.
41:33
There's a lot of possibilities, but one of the possibilities could be that the weird supermutating unnecrolotic power
41:40
of Gacron and Dementious fragment power are now combined in that thing. What if
41:48
she's trying to make herself into a being? Like, there's no reason to assume that
41:54
Zealot isn't trying to become the last Titan. That's kind of where my thought is,
42:00
right? Because there's no reason Zotas couldn't be trying to jump over everybody else and
42:06
become the supreme orbit of reality, which it'd be a really cool thing to see
42:11
her try because I am positive that Shara would have some things to say about that. Well, and think about that too,
42:17
right? Cuz like where is she going? Where's her next stop on the grand tour of the universe?
42:23
It we're going to the Sunwell. What is the Sunwell? It's kind of like the light-based
42:30
version of the Well of Eternity at this point. It is It is a font of light at this point. It was built originally as an
42:36
alternate source to the Well of Eternity, kind of like the Eye of Athl uh in in the Nightighborn's uh hometown.
42:44
Um it's an alternative that ostensibly does very much the same thing. The only
42:49
difference is instead of being tied directly into the inner workings of our
42:54
wonderful uh Titan shell that we live on called Azeroth, it's a direct line to
43:00
the light. It's been I don't want to say upgraded but altered. We've seen this.
43:07
The purification of the Sunwell was kind of a big deal, right? It is an immense
43:14
font of power. So, she controls an immense amount of void energy at this
43:19
point. And now she's going after an immense portion of light energy, whether
43:26
to corrupt it or turn it into a dayight cycle like we've seen before, or whether it's to take that power for herself.
43:34
The next stop after that seems like it would be the well, or at least the remnants therein, right? It would be the
43:41
maelstrom. would be going through and and grabbing the eye of Aman Thu and powering herself up to take that role of
43:48
the last Titan to be the definitive life form of this universe. That is a
43:54
possibility. I'm not saying that it is the answer, but it seems like a there's a compelling argument for it, right?
44:00
More powerful than all the void lords, more powerful than the Titans combined. More powerful or on par with the first
44:07
ones potentially. Well, I mean, you know, the jailer felt he could do it. Why
44:13
shouldn't she try? Yeah. Well, and she's got she's have the ability to learn from his mistakes, right? Like, think about it. She says it
44:20
when you defeat uh and I'm sorry, folks, I know his name is Saladar, but I cannot
44:26
think of him as anything other than King's Salad Bar. Um, when he's defeated, we don't kill him.
44:34
She even says, "I much more uh have use of a capable servant."
44:40
She's not destroying things and recreating them and stitching them back together into homoculi. Not that's what
44:47
the jailer did. The jailer didn't have intact souls at his as beck and call.
44:52
Every member of the jailer's forces outside of Sylvanas was a fragmentation of souls and power
44:59
and energy and they were hammered into weird shapes. Yeah. Hammered into you. The whole deal with
45:05
the the various constructs, they were constructed out of souls. They weren't constructed out of actual metal. But
45:11
Zalot doesn't do that. Zalot wants minions who are capable, who have their
45:18
faculties, but that she can control. So,
45:23
she's not destroying anything. It doesn't seem like that's the case. But I definitely see an argument made that
45:28
she's going to try to become the one above all.
45:34
And as far as will Azeroth be a void to void Titan going into the last Titan, I
45:40
don't think so. Going off the line that we're just talking about now, I think
45:45
it's mostly going to be putting right
45:51
whatever Zotath is doing. And it is very likely trying to become an order of magnitude larger than a Titan.
45:58
Especially because Azeroth has often been referred to as not a Titan.
46:03
Her power is something different. She is something different. I don't know who is the the youngest of
46:10
the Titans besides like and I'm going to air quote Azeroth here, but who do we know? I think it was Agamar.
46:16
You think it was Agamar, right? Yeah, because he's literally called the the apprentice. He's always the one that
46:23
is, you know, backing Sargeras up. He's not his own guy. So, yeah, I think it
46:29
was actually supposed to be Agramar. The rest of them all seem older. I I don't think it when you're talking about
46:34
titans, I don't think anyone ever actually stops to really, you know, work out a chronology for them. But the
46:41
oldest one is definitely Ammon and the youngest one is most likely Agramar.
46:48
Yeah, I don't know. I It's It's going to be interesting to see
46:54
how that works. I think
46:59
Sorry, random thoughts. I'm wondering if Argus actually counts as that as well or how young Argus
47:05
That's a good point cuz Argus wasn't actually ever got to full Titan him. He
47:10
didn't get to be an independent living titan because he was tortured and driven insane. Except we we drew him out physically at
47:17
the end of that fight. Does he count? Yeah. Is he in the running for that potentially?
47:22
I don't know. That is a good point. And it's often very much the the Argus is kind of
47:29
treated like Azeroth's weaker but slightly older brother. Um when when
47:35
Magny was talking to Argus, it was interesting that Magny could talk to Argus,
47:41
which I mean I guess it makes sense with his his being Titan aligned, right? Yeah. But I just I thought it was
47:47
interesting because that would imply that that Magny and all the other beings
47:52
that we now have, the Earth that have kind of accepted his role, they're not
47:58
unique. It's not just something only Azeroth could do.
48:04
So yeah, I I it's it's kind of interesting to think about the concept of,
48:11
you know, are all titans secretly trying to talk through like, you know, various servants? We've got the world soul on
48:18
Kesh talking to living beings and not turning them into crystal. Right. Well, let's let's let's you're you're
48:23
going somewhere where I was going to go too, right? We don't have confirmation of this, but the idea that Caresh was
48:30
the uh one of the world souls that was destroyed,
48:36
we don't like they say that it was blown up by what they did, but don't forget there's also that one that that Sargeras
48:44
destroyed that we have no idea of, but at the end of the and mild spoilers here
48:49
for the campaign, so uh you've got 10 minutes left in the episode. you can you you can safe to go at this point um if
48:56
you don't want the end of the expansion ruined. The whole point of the end of the expansion, the whole point of the
49:01
end of the quest with um Ecodaldani and Venari and everything you're doing with
49:08
the Oasis is not rebuilding Caresh the planet.
49:13
It's the world soul. It's the world soul in the fact where they they Venari flat out says I can
49:19
hear the song be stronger, isn't it? Like yeah, they kind of established that it's been sort of
49:24
regenerating itself the whole time. Yeah. Slowly but surely, these fragments have been nurtured. Like Venari was
49:29
absolutely astounded, but not necessarily astounded that it was regenerating, but that
49:34
that it had gone so far as it had. Yeah, because we we made the speculation that Venari was in the Shadowlands looking
49:40
for a way to regenerate uh Caresh, which may very well be accurate because everything we're doing at the Oasis. Uh,
49:47
and everything that we do for Venari is Shadowland adjacent, gathering souls
49:52
from one place, putting them through a process much like the uh engine and Argus. Just going to throw that out
49:58
there. Uh, forcing these uh spirit creatures to be reborn in physical form.
50:04
Dude, it's just like the engine that we see at the end of Shadowlands. It sure is.
50:10
Or even the engine of the Makers or the vehicle grabs soul pieces and puts them in in
50:16
physical bodies. Or the the one that we literally just helped the earthn cleanse. Uh,
50:22
yep. Going going through their their little stone hall there. Uh, that we saw in the halls of stone and the halls of
50:29
lightning up at Northrren. We've seen this many many times before. Venari is
50:35
just doing it like in space essentially and doing it witha purea not fragments
50:43
and not reitching them together which I think is absolutely fascinating because even the earn the earth's process until
50:50
we fixed it was a bastardized version of the of of what it was right they weren't given true souls in in certain regards
50:59
they were built to become obsolete uh and have their memory stones put to the core and not necessarily be reborn as
51:07
the same entity. Um whereas, you know, the ones that are being born
51:12
now, they're themselves. They don't have an expiration date. Not necessarily.
51:18
They're tied to Azeroth. Uh but they're and even the void side was trying to do that, right? even the corruption inside
51:25
of that dungeon. Uh when you get to the end there and you deal with the uh the the void forge smith that's working his
51:31
magic, he's essentially trying to imbue void as souls into these physical vessels. Uh so going back to the whole
51:39
Caresh thing, Caresh is also in the running to be the last Titan. It is a
51:45
world soul. It is a world soul that is regenerating. It is a world soul that could wake up.
51:52
And Azeroth again being an order of magnitude different than a Titan as
51:57
we've been assured multiple multiple times. Azroth may not be a Titan at all.
52:03
Azeroth may be like a manifestation of culmination. I've said this for years at
52:09
this point and I'm not stopping. She may be or they may be the rebirth of
52:16
the First Ones and what they truly wanted. an entity that combines all of the best elements of the cosmos into a
52:24
distilled force that's unified to fight the incoming tide of non-existence.
52:31
Something they couldn't do themselves individually. Something they may not have been able to uh unite all of the
52:36
realms in order to do because let's be honest, life and death probably not
52:42
getting along very well. Light and dark, we know that there's some there's some problems there. you know, arcane and the
52:50
wild probably going to have a little bit of a disagreement as well. These are diametrically opposed forces on that
52:56
cosmology chart. Uh, and again, I understand grain of salt. We've been told that it is inaccurate, but it is
53:02
our best understanding of it. Even in a three-dimensional layout, two forces can
53:08
be opposed to each other. Even if they're slightly off from perfectly uh perfectly opposed to each other, you
53:14
have to have something that binds them together or they just continue to push against each other. And I always
53:20
maintain that Azeroth was always meant to be that piece. It maybe wasn't planned and it maybe was an experiment
53:26
and accidental that it happened the way it did, but I still don't think Azeroth is a Titan. I think Azeroth is something
53:33
so much more. And I think that if we do get a void titan, it's going to be whatever the heck Zelat is doing, trying
53:40
to power herself up.
53:48
So yeah, I'll kick you for some final thoughts there, Matt. What do you do you got anything else besides, you know,
53:54
release Sargeras? Well, yeah. I mean, honestly, I do think we're going to get to see Sargeras at
53:59
some point. I do think it would not surprise me if at some point the Titans all show up and Sargeras is leading
54:07
them. I I would be much more interested if Sargeras is the only one that shows up
54:12
because despite being free or are Sargeras and Illan and like the rest of them are like we're
54:18
not dealing with this. This is not our fight and Sargeras is like you know what it is my fight. Hey, you
54:24
want to go punch something bigger than me? Let's go. Yeah. like it it certainly could be
54:29
possible. Although I also think Agramar would go where anywhere Sargeras goes even now probably. Um but the thing that I'm I keep coming
54:37
around is the concept of the word Titan. Mhm. I mean when you say I don't think
54:43
Yeah. When you say I don't think he's a Titan. I think he's something you think Azeroth is something much greater. I
54:50
think the problem is is that we've used the word Titan to mean these specific beings
54:55
for so long that we've never really come up with a categorization of what is a
55:01
Titan. We we just think of the Pantheon as the Titans. But there could be all
55:06
sorts of world souls and beings like the Pantheon that aren't part of the
55:12
Pantheon. Like that's just there's an entire cosmos out there. um ultimate multiple
55:20
multiple versions of of universes. One true timeline versus, you know,
55:25
timeways. There's a whole bunch of really weird stuff
55:32
that you could do to try and establish what exactly does
55:38
the word Titan mean? Are the Pantheon of Death Titans?
55:43
Like, they don't seem to be, but at the same time, they seem to be. um
55:50
Aon like right now we know that Aloon was not only considered herself sister to the uh I want to say the winter queen
55:58
but she's also hanging out with ANR and having some kind of relationship there.
56:03
So that's the Titans and the Pantheon and then there's good old Aloon involved in both. Um,
56:11
is Azeroth something like Aloon is? Like whatever Aloon is and we don't even
56:17
know what that is. I there's just a lot of stuff like it kind of feels almost like Aloon is is like capable of
56:25
being considered like almost like an old god at the same time that she's almost
56:31
like a titan and she's almost like somebody in the pantheon of of death. It almost feels like Aloon is already kind
56:37
of the thing that uh Zealah might be trying to turn herself into.
56:43
Like is Aloon the last Titan? Is Aloon, you know, the final Titan? And that's
56:49
the thing, too. Remember, it was originally, you know, we must rebuild the final Titan. Mhm. Which is different than last.
56:56
Final would indicate this is the Titan to end all titans. Re rebuild. Rebuild would also uh seem
57:02
to indicate pieces. Yeah, like fragments. Uh, but to rebuild
57:07
the final Titan, does that mean you're rebuilding the last one to be alive
57:13
or you're rebuild rebuilding one who will be the last one? Like there's a lot of, you know, back and forth on all this
57:20
stuff. Uh ultimately though, I think we have to wait and see obviously, but I
57:26
think it would be very very interesting to see exactly what happens if Zalat actually manages to complete her her
57:32
goal. She gets what she wanted. and she does what she meant to do and then it,
57:38
you know, it actually reveals what's really going on because we don't could
57:44
this actually be the one time that the villain is like we always hear this the
57:49
the the old trope of no you fools you've stopped me and now they're going to like literally we just got that with the
57:54
jailer where when we beat the jailer he's like no they're coming I have to be here to
58:02
stop them and he turns back into a robot. Um, what if Zelat gets her way,
58:07
does all the stuff she wants to do, creates, you know, some kind of void parody of a Titan or what have you, and
58:14
looks to be on the cusp of ascending into the role of the First Ones. And it
58:20
turns out that that's good because that's, you know, she's now capable of holding off whatever's coming long
58:27
enough for us to figure out how to stop it. And that's all she's been trying to do. Like what if she's actually been
58:34
doing her heel to face to heel to face to heel to face to heel to face turn
58:40
this entire thing is like spinning around so much for all the Is she like pure evil? Is she just selfish? Is Is
58:47
she incomprehensible to us? Yeah, who knows? But I would love to see I want to
58:53
see the story going in a direction that isn't quite as tried and true Warcraft
58:58
as you know yet another villain who you know reaches too far and ends up getting
59:04
defeated. So I would actually be okay with an expansion that ended with Zalat essentially triumphant.
59:11
Listen, not that we didn't just kind of get that already. I like complicated stories. I hope that
59:21
unlike game mechanics which seem to be going a much simpler route that the story doesn't go back to its very simple
59:27
storytelling roots. I like the complexity. I like when villains, like you said, are not just one note. I like
59:35
when they're complex. I like when there's potential for multiple sources of motivation.
59:41
So hopefully we'll get some more of it. Uh Midnight's right around the corner. Uh we're we're a few months away at this
59:48
point. Uh the alpha is already going on and people are more focusing on like
59:53
they should because it is an alpha the mechanics of it. But that means a beta is not too far away. And once we start
1:00:00
getting into the beta, elements of the story are going to start pushing forward. And we are very close to
1:00:08
getting a deluge of information that will help us speculate uh and potentially tinfoil hat uh and make some
1:00:16
predictions on what's going to happen moving forward. But I think that's going to do it for us
1:00:21
this week. Friends, I do want to thank you and remind you that Blizzardwatch is made possible due to your generous
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1:01:50
Well, that folks, we'll see you next week. [Music]