Up next in 10
We start off Lore Watch this week wishing Mephisto a Happy Father's Day -- but are there any other fathers among the evils of Diablo? Then, we pivot to World of Warcraft and another set of world-shaking entities. We saw what happened when we killed a Titan and kicked off Shadowlands, but what happens when a world soul dies? Do they just get to hang out in Ardenweald forever? Because that kinda sounds better than having a sword stuck through you since Legion.
Then, we turn beneath the surface of Azeroth, to the Rift of Aln and the Nightmares it may hold. Also, is Xal'atath beneath the surface of Azeroth now, too? Was that some kind of weird portal magic through the Voidwell, or is she and her void baddies just Silver Surfering it up down there?
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Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:04
[music]
0:10
>> Hello and welcome to Lorewatch, a round
0:12
table free form discussion about lore in
0:13
your favorite media. I'm your host Joe
0:15
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:17
from Blizzard Watch, and I've got two
0:19
marvelous co-hosts with me today. First,
0:22
he has a mild fascination with Godzilla.
0:25
We have Matt Rossi. How are you doing
0:26
today, Matt?
0:27
>> Mild?
0:28
Mild?
0:30
>> [laughter]
0:31
>> What? You might as well say I'm also a
0:32
little overweight. Yeah.
0:34
>> [laughter]
0:34
>> Jeez. Mild.
0:37
>> [gasps]
0:37
>> And then joining us as well is Eric back
0:40
from his long time away from us. How are
0:43
you doing, Eric?
0:44
>> I I'm good and I like Godzilla. Although
0:47
I like all Godzilla, I like the Matthew
0:49
Broderick 1997 Godzilla. I don't know if
0:51
that disqualifies me from being a
0:53
Godzilla fan in Matt's eyes.
0:54
>> I don't think so.
0:56
I don't have a real problem with you
0:57
liking it. I think it was a fine movie
0:59
if it wasn't called Godzilla.
1:02
Uh my only
1:03
>> my that's pretty much my opinion, too.
1:04
It wasn't really Godzilla.
1:06
>> Yeah, my only problem with it is that
1:07
when they when the army rocks up and
1:09
starts shooting God supposedly Godzilla
1:12
with missiles and Godzilla dies, I'm
1:14
like, that's not how this works. That's
1:17
like saying we're going to shoot this
1:18
hurricane with missiles till it dies.
1:20
No, Godzilla is not you that's never
1:22
happened. No. That's all I got mad about
1:25
that. But I don't blame the movie for
1:28
that. I blame the the people who made
1:31
the movie, if that makes any The movie
1:32
itself is perfectly watchable. It just
1:34
isn't a Godzilla film.
1:35
>> And Madison Square Garden now looks
1:37
about the same as it did at the end of
1:38
that movie because of the Knicks victory
1:41
and everything that's been going on
1:42
there.
1:43
>> Yeah, I don't understand this. I And
1:44
keep in mind I live in Edmonton, so
1:46
anytime the Oilers even get close to a
1:49
playoff anymore,
1:50
it's like the entire town is bracing for
1:52
devastation, but I still don't
1:54
understand it. I do not get why people
1:56
wreck their own cities. Just just don't
1:59
understand.
1:59
>> I I don't either. It's it
2:02
>> Godzilla for that.
2:03
>> But also it's one of those things where
2:04
I live in Buffalo. I'm probably never
2:06
going to know what that looks like. So,
2:08
>> Didn't you guys win once?
2:09
>> No.
2:10
>> I thought you won back in the '80s.
2:11
>> Nope.
2:12
>> [laughter]
2:13
>> Well, anyway.
2:14
Uh so, uh we're not here to talk about
2:17
sports or burning down cities or the
2:18
destruction right by Kaijus, although
2:20
that may come in a later episode. Uh
2:22
instead
2:23
>> But we are here to talk about the Kaiju
2:25
game where you you know play basketball.
2:27
When that one comes out, we're all
2:28
there. Come on.
2:29
>> Probably. Probably. Uh but we're here to
2:31
answer some of your questions from uh
2:34
our wonderful listeners out there.
2:36
Again, I do like to remind you that if
2:38
you have questions for this or any of
2:39
our podcast, wanting to be sure to send
2:41
those in. They can be at
2:42
2:44
We ask that you specify the name of the
2:46
show that it's for in the subject line,
2:48
as well as any special pronunciation of
2:50
your name. If you want to hit us up on
2:51
Discord, we have two channels set aside.
2:53
We have the Q&A podcast questions
2:54
channel
2:55
open for everybody. Same rules apply.
2:58
And if you happen to be a Patreon
3:00
supporter, uh
3:02
you can absolutely send those into the
3:04
patron Q&A podcast questions channel,
3:06
where we tend to look there first as a
3:08
way of saying thank you for helping us
3:09
keep the lights on.
3:11
Now, with that we're going to start with
3:13
something that I think will probably
3:15
pique Matt's interest a little bit
3:16
because it has to do with the world of
3:18
Diablo. And this one comes from Red
3:20
Bandit 1213. Do any other evils have
3:23
kids besides Mephisto? Uh Andariel? Sort
3:28
of. Go ahead.
3:29
>> Okay. Um here's here's what I'll break
3:31
down for you. Uh we have no knowledge of
3:34
Asmadan
3:36
or Belial or Andariel or
3:39
you know, Andariel or Andariel producing
3:42
offspring. We have no no nothing about
3:45
that. Uh they could maybe they got one
3:47
that no one's ever mentioned. Um in
3:49
terms of the big three,
3:51
we obviously know about Mephisto. He's
3:53
got two. Um
3:55
Baal
3:56
it no one's ever explicitly said Baal
3:59
does not have children. However, I I
4:01
have a hard time imagining the the you
4:04
know, destruction itself creating a
4:07
child. Like destruction's idea of how to
4:09
create things is to destroy everything.
4:10
Like and then now new stuff can come up
4:12
and then I'll destroy that. So, I don't
4:15
see I don't see Baal doing that. That
4:17
just does not It doesn't strike me as a
4:20
Baal thing to do. However, here we come
4:22
to the to the kind of the maybe
4:25
depending on how you look at it. Diablo,
4:27
when he was possessing the body of
4:29
Prince Aidan who had jammed the soul
4:31
stone into his own head at the end of
4:34
Diablo because I guess he wasn't very
4:36
good at making decisions at least not
4:38
good decisions. Um
4:41
when Diablo was slowly taking him over,
4:44
Adria who was a witch who had made a
4:45
pact with Diablo
4:47
and then pretended to be everybody's
4:49
friend because you know, that's a good
4:50
way to to mess with people. Let let
4:53
Aidan
4:54
impregnate her.
4:56
Uh and so
4:58
it's it's questionable to how much of
5:00
that was even Aidan at this point. Like
5:02
he was already
5:03
kind of becoming Diablo in all but you
5:05
know, form.
5:08
Uh and then eventually even that, you
5:09
know, he he shredded the the the final
5:12
remainders of Aidan's form.
5:14
Uh and then went forth into Pandemonium
5:16
in in their true form.
5:18
But regardless, the child that that uh
5:21
Adria conceived and left with Deckard
5:25
Cain
5:26
Leah from Diablo 3, that she was
5:29
Diablo's offspring. To the point where
5:30
Diablo reabsorbed her
5:33
when the Black Soulstone ritual was
5:35
performed. Uh he just took the body
5:37
back. He took what he put into her body,
5:40
the half of it that was
5:43
his and the half of it that was Adria
5:45
who was pledged to him
5:46
and just took it. And we don't know what
5:49
happened to Leah's soul or if Leah had a
5:51
soul or
5:52
we we we have no idea what's what what
5:54
ended up happening to Leah. We don't
5:56
know.
5:57
Um
5:58
one of the theories I've seen is that in
6:00
the unmade that we get mentioned in in
6:03
Diablo 4 is not Lucien but is in fact
6:06
Leah.
6:07
>> Would make sense because she was
6:08
technically unmade, you know.
6:10
>> Yeah.
6:11
I mean, I think Lucien makes more sense
6:13
but I get why people are saying that cuz
6:15
it is the kind of swerve that that those
6:16
tricky people at at Blizzard might do
6:18
just to throw people like me off. Um so
6:21
I felt like I'd mention it but yeah, in
6:23
terms of the other ones reproducing
6:25
um I don't think Belial is particularly
6:30
interested.
6:31
Um for one thing he he was his
6:32
Mephisto's lackey for a while
6:34
essentially like each of the the four
6:37
lessers had a a greater that they were
6:40
kind of shadowing or not I don't want to
6:42
say serving cuz it implies the lesser
6:44
evils were servants and they weren't but
6:46
you know, sort of like a
6:48
an affinity towards them.
6:49
>> Yeah, they just they were think of think
6:51
of it like overlapping circles. They
6:52
just kind of fell into the Venn diagram
6:54
between
6:55
you know, certain prime evils and
6:56
whichever one they were closest to kind
6:57
of were were where were they where they
7:00
wound up.
7:01
>> Yeah. So for example, Mephisto and
7:03
Belial have very similar mindsets except
7:05
Belial is much more
7:07
involved in deception and for Mephisto,
7:10
it's all about, you know, sowing hatred.
7:12
He certainly is willing to deceive but
7:15
he isn't as invested in it as Belial is.
7:18
It it's kind of helps to think of the
7:19
lesser evils as more um for lack of a
7:22
better word, more elemental in their
7:24
nature. Like they have a thing that they
7:26
do and they do it. Whereas for the three
7:29
primes, the three greater evils,
7:31
they want to make a certain condition
7:34
true and they'll use anything to get it.
7:37
They are not going to sit there and and
7:38
they will vary their methods. Mephisto
7:40
but then again, they're not very
7:41
creative. I mean, Mephisto just keeps
7:44
doing the holy man thing. It worked, but
7:47
it's still just him repeating himself.
7:50
Um I think that's one of the things I
7:51
actually really liked. It was hilarious
7:53
to me when he said, "Nothing you humans
7:54
has Nothing these humans have done has
7:56
ever surprised me." And I'm sitting
7:57
there going, "You do the same thing
7:59
every single time you come back. Every
8:01
single time you come back, same deal."
8:02
It's like you have never varied it. You
8:05
You do not have an original idea in your
8:07
head. That's why I think it's
8:08
interesting that he made children, and I
8:10
feel like it was a way of trying to get
8:12
around his own limitation. Uh it felt to
8:14
me like the creation of Lilith and and
8:17
Lucion
8:18
Uh with Lilith, he was attempting to
8:20
create something that could outthink
8:21
him. That could produce stuff that he
8:23
didn't see coming. And no matter what he
8:25
says, he did not see humans coming. He
8:27
He did not All of the evils were
8:29
completely surprised by Sanctuary. Um
8:31
and for Lucion, [clears throat] I feel
8:32
like he With Lucion, he tried to like
8:35
essentially he kind of pulled the
8:37
Tathamet in that everything he sifted
8:39
out of Lilith, he put over there in that
8:42
guy.
8:43
The one who isn't going to try and
8:45
overthrow him. The one who isn't going
8:47
to try and be Lilith. The one who's
8:49
going to be steadfastly loyal, as Lucion
8:52
was. Although he did it He was
8:54
steadfastly loyal out of out of fear of
8:56
what he would happen to him. But
8:58
regardless, there [snorts] there's a lot
9:00
of contrast in that.
9:02
In terms of Leah though, um Leah's like
9:04
the most unfortunate one because Leah
9:06
was, as far as we can tell,
9:08
completely human. Like I mean, she had
9:11
the power of Diablo within her, but she
9:13
was a person in a way that, you know, it
9:16
makes her death
9:18
more tragic. And also the fact that we
9:20
have no idea how exactly what happened
9:21
and what state she's at. That's That's a
9:23
problem. So I I that's that's
9:26
I don't really know there's anything
9:27
else to say about this. If there are
9:28
other demons that are, you know, the
9:30
children of the primes or lesser evils,
9:33
none of them have actually ever popped
9:34
up and said so.
9:36
I mean, maybe they maybe they exist.
9:39
In a In a metaphorical way, all demons
9:41
are the offspring of Tathamet.
9:43
>> Yes.
9:44
>> Even the primes and lessers. Uh but most
9:47
demons don't seem to be particularly
9:48
interested if they do assault humans.
9:50
Like there's that kid, Aldrin, who's one
9:53
of the the um mercenaries. He's got a
9:56
He's got a demonic father. We have no
9:57
idea why that demon did it. Uh we don't
10:00
know what the demon was going for other
10:01
than sewing chaos and pain.
10:03
But regardless, we do know that it can
10:05
happen. There are at least a couple of
10:07
examples including Aldrin. So, they may
10:10
be more out there, but we don't know.
10:13
>> I think it's it's less likely for the
10:15
lesser evils to really
10:17
uh participate in that for a couple
10:19
reasons, at least from going back
10:21
through
10:22
uh the What is it? The The Great
10:24
Banishing and then the Civil War that
10:26
occurred between the lesser evils and
10:28
the uh
10:29
uh the the Prime Evils, where and we
10:32
learned later that it was part of the
10:34
Prime Evils' plan to get banished to
10:35
Sanctuary, etc., etc. Uh but this whole
10:38
idea
10:40
um that the Prime Evils wanted to sway
10:43
humanity or use humanity uh versus
10:45
destroy humanity and had kept Sanctuary
10:48
secret from the lesser evils uh for, you
10:51
know, time immemorial until they figured
10:53
out that it was there. Uh and then you
10:56
had uh the lesser evils, which was
10:58
Belial, Asmadan, Andariel, and Duriel,
11:01
uh with I believe it was Belial, uh Lord
11:03
of Lies, uh manipulating Asmadan into a
11:06
full-on revolt, um in which the demon
11:09
lords made pact with their brother and
11:11
ensuring that humanity would not uh
11:12
essentially derail them from their
11:15
victory in the Eternal Conflict, and
11:17
then wind up banishing the Prime Evils
11:19
to Sanctuary.
11:21
The lesser evils don't like humanity.
11:24
They don't even see humanity as a tool.
11:26
And part of that may be because, and I'm
11:28
just going to throw this out there,
11:29
they're not as smart as they think they
11:31
are. Um Belial, Lord of Lies, just lies
11:35
a lot and he doesn't really know
11:37
anything. So, just, you know,
11:38
manipulates through lies.
11:40
Asmadan, you know, I mean, we've seen
11:42
Asmadan. He throws
11:43
giant fiery, you know, balls of of
11:46
basketball nature from downtown. See, it
11:48
all comes back to basketball.
11:49
Um
11:49
but he's just essentially another like
11:53
deity of or or
11:55
uh defiler of of humanities, a
11:57
destructor, right? He only knows how to
12:00
destroy things. He's not exactly
12:02
exceptionally smart. Uh Andariel and
12:05
Duriel,
12:06
you know, one is basically a weir form
12:08
of corruption and disease,
12:10
right? Lord of Pain and and the Maggot
12:12
King of Duriel. And then you have
12:14
Andariel who uh is also sort of the
12:18
Maiden of Anguish and the original demon
12:21
queen before we knew of Lilith's
12:22
existence.
12:23
Um but again, very one single-minded.
12:26
>> There's actually a very interesting
12:27
thing about Andariel in that when we get
12:29
a a glimpse into her mind
12:31
in D4.
12:32
>> Mhm.
12:33
>> And one of the things we find out is
12:35
that Andariel's anguish, the anguish
12:38
that she is the maiden of, is it's her
12:41
constant state. And it's the the anguish
12:43
of having been cut off from something
12:45
greater than yourself. Once she was part
12:47
of something greater and now all she can
12:50
feel is anguish. All can she can feel is
12:52
the pain of being severed away from that
12:55
greater thing.
12:57
Uh which indicates that even before
13:01
when she was part of Tathamet, she was
13:03
in that pain. Because Tathamet wasn't
13:06
itself severed from a whole. Yeah. Yeah.
13:09
And that to me is interesting because it
13:11
implies that each of the lesser evils is
13:15
is almost like a symptom. Like the the
13:18
anguish of that severing is Andariel.
13:20
Andariel is literally the suffering
13:23
brought into, you know, an actual
13:24
existence as a being.
13:25
>> Duriel is the same of of the the like
13:28
the deadening corpse that it's been cut
13:29
from with the maggots. Yeah.
13:32
>> Mhm. And uh you mentioned about Asmadan.
13:35
Asmadan calls himself the lord of sin.
13:37
>> Yeah.
13:38
>> That's like you are the vaguest guy
13:41
imaginable.
13:42
>> Well, yeah, but he's also he's also
13:43
referred to as the lord of all vice, the
13:44
master of temptation.
13:46
>> But that's the point. He doesn't he
13:49
doesn't do those things for a purpose.
13:52
>> No, he just does it.
13:52
>> They are his purpose.
13:54
>> Yeah.
13:54
>> His purpose is
13:56
Each of the uh lesser evils feels like
13:58
that. Like Belial, lord of lies, doesn't
14:01
lie to achieve a goal. Like they Those
14:05
Those four getting power in the hells
14:07
was the worst thing that could have
14:08
happened to the hells because they don't
14:10
have a goal. They just have a reaction.
14:13
It's the three primes who, despite, you
14:16
know, being themselves severed from
14:18
something greater, have each other at
14:20
least There's hatred begets destruction
14:23
begets terror. You know, and terror
14:26
begets hatred. And that cycle, the thing
14:29
that they do, makes them each more than
14:32
they are.
14:34
You know, Mephisto's the lord of hatred,
14:35
but he still does other things. His goal
14:39
is to use hatred. And And what is the
14:42
ultimate goal of all of it? Is to
14:43
perpetuate the cycle.
14:45
>> Yeah, it's It reminds me a lot of like a
14:47
kid who you come across who's just like,
14:50
you know, throwing a ball into like a
14:52
wall and there's no purpose. He's just
14:54
doing it. And then you ask him, "Why are
14:56
you doing it?" And he goes, "Uh,
14:58
I got nothing. This is just what I do."
15:00
Um like or or
15:02
>> Or I'm bored.
15:03
>> Or I'm bored. Or I just Yeah, like there
15:05
there is no like end goal. There is no
15:07
end state. It's just the current state
15:08
of what it is.
15:10
I I agree with you. That seems like what
15:11
the lesser evils uh sort of feel like.
15:13
But again, they don't have the same
15:15
interest in humanity
15:17
that the prime evils do. And even after
15:20
learning
15:21
like that the Nephalem existed, that the
15:23
humans have incredible power, that, you
15:26
know, Sanctuary could potentially be
15:28
used as a weapon against the high
15:29
heavens, they still don't care. Even
15:31
when you come across Andariel in Diablo
15:34
4, she's not on this big grand scheme of
15:37
anything. She's corrupting one
15:39
individual, right? Like
15:41
>> No, the worst part is Andariel doesn't
15:43
even have any agency in it.
15:45
>> No, not at all.
15:47
>> Yeah. It's They summoned Andariel
15:50
because they knew they could basically
15:52
chain her to a rock
15:54
uh and use her like a pain battery.
15:57
>> Yeah, by by Elias. Elias wants to use
15:59
her power.
16:01
>> And I think the reason he didn't pick
16:02
Duriel is simply because Duriel wouldn't
16:06
be pleased by
16:08
like he'd want them to be dead. He wants
16:10
them to die in agony. He wants nothing
16:13
but He's about the physical, about the
16:15
decay of it, like you pointed out, the
16:17
maggot lord. He wants death. He doesn't
16:20
just want suffering, but Andariel's
16:23
suffering is permanent. Andariel doesn't
16:26
have an end point to her suffering
16:28
because she can't die, really. She just
16:31
goes back to the hells and comes back
16:32
and has to keep going through it. It's
16:35
just eternal and she never gets away
16:36
from it. So, there's a sort of There's a
16:40
balance to this and I think it's one of
16:42
the reasons it's unlikely for any of
16:44
these beings to make children aside from
16:47
like Lilith did it on purpose when she
16:49
did it. And
16:51
and Mephisto himself also did it on
16:54
purpose when he made his children. In a
16:56
weird sort of way, she was repeating
16:59
him. Except this time she was trying to
17:00
do it better by adding in the angel
17:03
aspect. And in a way it worked. Like she
17:05
made children that could defy her. Like,
17:07
you know, she made a son who immediately
17:10
didn't want to do any of the stuff she
17:11
told him he should do.
17:13
Like it's absolutely hilarious to me how
17:16
you Well, not hilarious. It's It's
17:18
ironic dark darkly ironic that Lilith in
17:21
rebellion against her father created a
17:23
son who rebelled against her almost
17:25
immediately. Because that's It's It's
17:27
emblematic of the of the structure of
17:29
the whole It's It's falling apart. The
17:31
hells are essentially falling apart in a
17:34
very real way. They are just a giant
17:36
hole where a enormous seven-headed
17:38
dragon monster died.
17:39
And everything that coming out of it is
17:41
the stuff that refuses to stay dead.
17:43
>> Fair enough. Eric, do you have any
17:44
thoughts on
17:45
>> Uh the only thing I'll say is that
17:47
Father's Day's coming up and it doesn't
17:49
seem like it's going to be a popular
17:51
holiday among the Prime Evils with the
17:54
>> [laughter]
17:54
>> spawning of offspring in order to like
17:57
do evil stuff more efficiently and
17:59
possessing and using and destroying.
18:02
Like I don't think I don't think uh
18:04
Mephisto or Diablo are going to get any
18:06
Father's Day cards this year.
18:07
>> Especially not Diablo because we have no
18:09
idea what happened to his kid.
18:11
>> Fair.
18:11
>> Leah Leah couldn't give him give him a
18:13
card if she wanted to. Plus, I mean,
18:14
let's not forget the fact that if we're
18:16
talking about this, it's not like that
18:18
the heavens the high heavens the crystal
18:20
span and all that, they don't exactly
18:22
have a great Father's Day moment either.
18:25
Who Who's their father? The big spine?
18:28
Like it does the spine talk?
18:30
>> Hello, Dad. I brought you a present.
18:32
It's shoe polish and brighter brighter
18:34
than the
18:35
than before. I will I will polish you.
18:37
He's literally like polishing. No.
18:39
>> Yeah, pretty much. Just kind of going do
18:40
do do do do. Getting all the stuff out.
18:43
>> [laughter]
18:44
>> Uh I think that's enough of that. Uh I
18:47
think we're going to move on. Hopefully
18:48
that answers your question Red Bandit.
18:50
Uh we'll probably see more of it as
18:52
Diablo evolves and continues on.
18:54
Especially because a lot of the stuff at
18:56
the end of the current expansion of
18:58
Diablo 4 raises a little bit of those
19:00
questions as to
19:02
>> some creepy stuff going on involving
19:04
that the nature of those things.
19:06
>> Yeah, and the nature of the involvement
19:08
of the Prime Evils and what they can do
19:09
with humanity, what it truly means a
19:11
child of the devils,
19:14
uh because at the end of the day, keep
19:15
in mind,
19:17
uh Nephilim humanity are all children of
19:20
the combination of devils and angels,
19:22
demons, and uh in fact, they are the
19:24
first true combination closest to the
19:27
original diamond warrior Anu uh or Anu
19:30
complete, we'll say, cuz diamond warrior
19:32
Anu is a separate thing, uh Anu complete
19:34
than anything else in existence.
19:37
Um and it starts raising a whole bunch
19:38
of questions about that. But we're going
19:39
to move on to our next question, and
19:40
this one comes from Aaron or Air or Han.
19:44
I can never Give me a pronunciation,
19:46
please, like next time you send us
19:48
question and I would really appreciate
19:49
it. Um Shadowlands kicked off because we
19:52
did the impossible by killing a world
19:53
soul. But we also know Sargeras killed
19:56
the Titan Pantheon and a nascent world
19:58
soul. Pantheon just lost their bodies
20:00
and had their spirits go elsewhere. What
20:02
about the first world? Could it have
20:03
been sent to the Shadowlands since it
20:05
was not awoken yet? Or could that world
20:08
soul still be out there somewhere? If it
20:09
is out there, would we expect it to
20:11
still be corrupted by the void? And
20:13
would you expect that void corrupted
20:15
world soul to come back later in
20:16
Midnight or the Last Titan?
20:19
So,
20:21
I think for me, the the expectation here
20:26
is that as we get towards the end of
20:28
Midnight, so the the third
20:30
uh major story arc, the third the third
20:33
act of the expansion, we're actually
20:35
going to start answering maybe a little
20:36
bit more of that specific question
20:39
because it's the perfect setup for the
20:41
Last Titan. Um it's the very question of
20:44
what the nature of a Titan's soul is.
20:47
Um and again, you mentioned that we did
20:49
the impossible by killing a world soul.
20:52
We didn't kill a world soul.
20:54
We severed a world soul, and there is a
20:57
very distinct difference there. Um we
20:59
took a portion of it and shoved it into
21:02
a box that it wasn't supposed to um we
21:04
didn't actually kill it. And in fact, we
21:06
don't know that Titans at all can die in
21:09
any true form cuz as you pointed out,
21:11
when the Pantheon lost their bodies,
21:13
their spirits originally got slammed
21:16
into or at least their consciousness got
21:18
slammed into at least in portion their
21:21
watchers, their their most trusted
21:23
advisors causing some of them to go
21:25
insane, some causing some of them to rip
21:28
it out and bury it into the ground,
21:30
and others to release it in some manner
21:32
or get rid of it when they could. Um if
21:35
they didn't outright die from having it.
21:37
And then we learned in
21:40
you know, when we're going through
21:41
Legion and we find ourselves on Argus
21:43
and we go through Antorus
21:45
that
21:46
all of those souls or at least a portion
21:48
of them had been held captive and were
21:52
being tortured. And at least and what is
21:55
it I can never remember
21:57
the the angry friend of
22:00
Aggramar, thank you. I always want to
22:01
say Angron but that's Warhammer 40K.
22:03
>> I always want to say Aggramar.
22:05
>> Right?
22:06
>> The big the big piggy monster.
22:07
>> Big piggy. Oh yeah.
22:09
But even he's twisted. He's given form
22:11
again but he's he's now loyal to
22:14
Sargeras which isn't so far of a leap
22:17
for him because he was Sargeras's second
22:19
to begin with. But the others are taking
22:21
more time because they're more stubborn.
22:24
They don't see
22:25
right. They weren't they were never
22:27
sympathetic to
22:28
>> Well, I mean I wouldn't say they were
22:29
never sympathetic to him. They were all
22:30
part of the Pantheon once. I just think
22:32
it's more like
22:33
Aman'Thul didn't see any of the other
22:36
Titans as their superior. Neither did
22:38
Norgannon.
22:40
And certainly
22:41
>> Certainly not Aman'Thul.
22:42
>> Yeah, Aman'Thul absolutely not.
22:44
Norgannon, Norgannon was the best at
22:47
magic of any of them.
22:48
Like he none of them saw themselves as
22:51
Sargeras's friend or servant like
22:54
servant to his to Sargeras.
22:57
Aggramar kind of accepted it. He was
22:59
like, yes, I am I'm your your right
23:02
hand. I am your second. Which implies
23:05
that there's a there's a sub so a
23:06
subordinate relationship there that I
23:09
feel like it would make it easier for
23:12
him to be bent to Sargeras's will
23:14
because he was used to bending to
23:15
Sargeras. Whereas the idea that
23:17
Aman'thul was used to bending to
23:19
anybody's will, no, that does not sound
23:21
like like Aman'thul. Aman'thul didn't
23:23
even like doing what he wanted to do.
23:25
Um so, yeah. I I do think that that's a
23:28
that's a thing to consider when we think
23:30
about that.
23:31
Um I also think it's kind of interesting
23:33
to think about the concept of like what
23:36
is a Titan? We still don't know. We we
23:39
have ideas with this world soul thing,
23:41
but why are world souls out there?
23:44
Why does that happen? Like and not just
23:47
Titans for that matter. What about like
23:49
the old ones, the old gods?
23:51
Why do they seem to like burrow into
23:53
things?
23:54
No, no, I mean the old gods. I literally
23:56
mean
23:57
>> old gods burrowing. Yeah, yeah.
23:58
>> Yeah, the the you know, the the void
24:00
thingies. We've met void lords. We've
24:02
seen a void lord. He wasn't like the old
24:05
gods. Um is there a reason for this?
24:07
Like what exactly is it about Is it the
24:10
fact that translating into existence
24:13
when you are made of non-existence? Like
24:16
that's that's a tricky thing to do.
24:18
There's there's a lot of this kind of
24:19
stuff that we don't really know. And as
24:21
far as the first ones are concerned, we
24:22
have no idea what they were. Like we've
24:24
nothing. We haven't got We haven't got a
24:26
single representation of a first one.
24:28
The closest we've got is the fact that
24:30
in the sub in their sepulcher
24:32
um there were a bunch of
24:34
for lack of a better word, blank
24:35
templates that were ready to become the
24:38
the the Pantheon of Death.
24:40
They were like working on multiple
24:42
versions of those guys. Were they doing
24:44
that for Is that where also the Titans
24:46
come from?
24:48
Uh you know, what about you know, the
24:49
entities of light? You know, we've only
24:51
seen the naaru. We don't know what else
24:54
there is.
24:55
So, there's a lot of weird stuff going
24:57
on in terms of these beings and in terms
25:00
of their interaction with our reality.
25:02
>> I always like the symmetry and the fact
25:05
that there's a pantheon of order and
25:08
we've sort of seen pantheon of death and
25:11
heard that maybe Elune is part of the
25:13
pantheon of life. Like do they all have
25:15
the void lords? Are Are they on that
25:17
same level? Does that mean Well, what
25:20
about disorder and what about
25:23
>> Yeah, I mean that might be demons.
25:25
>> It could be It could be the void
25:26
>> demons might be that.
25:27
>> I like the idea of all of the pantheons
25:30
kind of match their respective force.
25:33
Like it makes sense that the pantheon of
25:35
order would be like a council of nine
25:38
powerful beings that are fairly equal
25:41
and that the pantheon of um
25:44
death has, you know, some rep
25:47
I guess some representatives of death.
25:48
But the pantheon of disorder is There is
25:51
There is none. It's just demons all the
25:52
way down. And so, you get Sargeras to
25:55
kind of like
25:56
reign them in and take them take the
25:58
power. But like then what's light? Is it
26:00
the Naaru? Are the Naaru on the level of
26:02
the old gods and the keepers or are the
26:04
Naaru all the way at the top or is it
26:06
different because light's different?
26:08
Like
26:08
>> Yeah, I mean the fact that we've got
26:10
Elune who is very clearly some sort of
26:12
light deity with a connection to the
26:13
Naaru, but is clearly also not a Naaru.
26:16
That implies something in terms of what
26:19
might be out there. And also is Is Elune
26:22
a light being
26:24
or a life being? And that's It's
26:27
interesting to think about that because
26:28
Elune in many ways seems to be more
26:31
involved in like the the
26:34
the fact that a a
26:35
a goddess of death, effectively, the the
26:38
Winter Queen called Elune sister implies
26:41
that they have that kind of
26:43
inverted relationship where one is one
26:45
is the ruler of a realm of death and the
26:47
other is a force of life. While at the
26:50
same time, life and light are kind of
26:53
similar in the way that fell and void
26:56
sort of are completely dissimilar. Like
26:58
there's a sort of anti-
27:01
symmetry to that. There's a lot of
27:03
interesting questions to it that we have
27:05
never really seen the answers. We just
27:07
get hints from books. And the books are
27:09
always tantalizing like, "No, no, you
27:11
can't stop now. You're stuck You gave me
27:13
like a paragraph, guys. I need to
27:15
understand this."
27:17
>> I think this question is fascinating
27:18
though because that world soul that was
27:21
slashed in half in theory had to have
27:23
gone somewhere. Or maybe maybe it was
27:27
annihilated and maybe there's nothing
27:28
left. But if it was corrupted by void,
27:31
would it have gone to Zereth Obscu- Do
27:34
we Do we come up with a name for that
27:35
maybe? Zereth Obscura? Zereth What's the
27:37
void one?
27:38
>> We don't know yet, I don't think.
27:40
>> We don't know, but what would it be if
27:41
if it followed the pattern?
27:42
>> I mean Obscura is possible or I mean
27:46
>> Zereth Tenebris.
27:48
>> Yeah, Tenebris.
27:49
>> Zereth Umbra. I think I
27:50
>> I Yeah.
27:51
>> Tenebris is just as good cuz it also
27:52
means shadow. Um
27:54
>> Sorry, going on the going on the World
27:55
of Darkness kick like
27:56
>> Yeah, well, so was I. Where do you think
27:58
Umbra originally came from in my head?
28:00
>> Oh, I know.
28:00
>> Werewolf, my friend.
28:02
>> Yep.
28:02
>> Werewolf, my friend. Now, let me talk to
28:04
you about werewolves. No, but I do think
28:06
Yeah, I think there's a possibility that
28:08
that's where that world soul goes or
28:10
went. Or this is the other possibility.
28:13
We've already seen what happens to
28:15
titans who lose their
28:17
their body, their their host.
28:19
>> Right.
28:19
>> They They go They got shot out and found
28:22
one of the things that they made and
28:24
inhabited that. That spirit might have
28:26
done the same thing. If
28:28
If it had made anything.
28:29
>> Yeah. When the titans were quote killed,
28:32
they didn't go to Zereth Ordis, they
28:34
went into the keepers. And so
28:37
>> Well, yeah, but they're also Yeah, but
28:38
that was Norgannon's
28:39
>> Yeah, but they're they're also beings
28:41
born of the
28:42
>> Yeah, but also Norgannon is the one who
28:44
sent them there.
28:45
>> Yes.
28:45
>> He grabbed their essences and sent them
28:47
there. which means A, Norgannon was good
28:49
enough at manipulating essences.
28:52
Uh I'm just going to say, you know,
28:53
yeah. There you go. Uh he was good
28:55
enough at doing that that he could
28:57
decide I'm sending us here. And it's
29:00
quite possible that they were supposed
29:04
to go somewhere else, but the fact that
29:06
Sargeras had set up a big grab spirits
29:09
before they go somewhere and make them
29:12
go into new bodies thing for the express
29:15
purposes of torturing his old friends
29:16
until they liked him again.
29:18
>> Mhm.
29:19
>> And you know, that implies that he knew
29:21
where they were going. And that when
29:23
they didn't go there, he went and
29:25
personally hunted them down. He's like,
29:27
wait a minute, why aren't you there? I
29:30
I was going to catch you in the giant
29:32
cosmic lint trap and you didn't get
29:34
caught in it. And now I have to go find
29:36
you.
29:36
>> Yeah, and again going back to what I
29:37
think this is one of the more
29:38
fascinating things, or at least one of
29:40
the more fascinating questions that has
29:42
to be answered because like you said,
29:45
there there seems to be, at least from
29:47
the Titan side, knowledge of where all
29:49
this stuff happens. And we talked about
29:52
this where, like going back to
29:54
Sargeras's history, Sargeras cleaving
29:57
the world soul in twain, uh you know,
30:01
we've been told killed the world soul
30:03
and that's what drove him insane is seen
30:06
the world soul um you know, being like
30:10
being corrupted, being consumed by the
30:12
void.
30:13
Um what if that's not what made him go
30:15
insane? What if the idea was he cleaved
30:18
the planet in twain not believing that
30:20
it was too far gone, but saying, "Oh, it
30:22
will just go back to where it needs to
30:24
go and I can go and fix it." And then
30:27
going with Matt's idea, he goes and
30:29
looks for it in the big cosmic lint trap
30:31
that all of the uh the world souls are
30:33
supposed to essentially be able to go
30:35
back to, and nothing was there. And it
30:37
didn't make sense to him cuz now what he
30:40
understands is the order of the universe
30:42
is completely shattered, right? Or
30:45
that's what his revelation of oh
30:48
Aman'thul lied. Like straight up this
30:51
means that the potentially this is the
30:52
the thing that was like the last straw
30:54
that broke the camel's back of
30:57
okay, well, this didn't happen how I was
31:00
told it was supposed to happen. What
31:02
else is he lying about? Cuz Sargeras is
31:04
not dumb, right? He is he is emotional
31:07
um he can sometimes make poor decisions
31:10
like splitting a piece of his essence is
31:12
off and shoving it into an avatar and
31:13
going to you know, fight the you know,
31:16
the guardian of Tirisfal Glades in the
31:18
the the Northrend areas. Uh any of that
31:21
stuff. Like you know, that that he makes
31:22
bad decisions, sure.
31:24
But what if it was because he started
31:26
questioning what was real and what was
31:28
not, what Aman'thul and Eonar were lying
31:31
about and that was just the first thing,
31:34
the first real big thing. Like hey, I
31:36
did this what shouldn't be an absolutely
31:39
terrible thing
31:40
because I was told that a world soul
31:43
would you know, be reborn or would go
31:46
back to wherever it needed to be, but
31:48
it's not there. And did I actually kill
31:51
a brother or sister? Did I kill a cosmic
31:54
entity of my own level?
31:56
Did I make a poor decision based off of
31:58
bad information that was given to me by
32:00
those that are supposed to be on my
32:02
side?
32:04
And then the spiraling happens, then the
32:06
confronta- But that begs the question,
32:09
what did happen to this
32:11
uh
32:11
I and I think void corrupted is maybe
32:13
the wrong way to really think about it
32:16
because I don't know that it is
32:17
necessarily void corruption. I would say
32:19
void consumed potentially. Because some
32:22
of the things we're learning about of
32:24
the void in Midnight right now
32:27
is beings like well, I don't know,
32:30
Demantius consume this type of energy.
32:33
They take it. There's is sub theme with
32:37
Allura and uh Alleria
32:40
where, you know, what did she do when we
32:43
took out Allura in the seat of the panth
32:46
seat of the triumvirate? She consumed
32:48
her. She put her inside of her much in
32:50
the same way
32:52
a demon hunter takes a demon or a fell
32:55
soul and ingest it and contains it
32:56
within them. Allura, when we fight
32:59
Allura towards the, you know, the the
33:01
last encounter, we're pulled inside of
33:04
essentially their dark space inside of
33:05
the dark well. It's being consumed as
33:08
part of It's not just being corrupted.
33:10
It's being consumed. And through
33:12
consumption, conversion.
33:14
>> You know what you just made me
33:16
>> Go for it.
33:17
>> When we go to the alternate Draenor
33:20
>> Uh-huh.
33:21
>> that there, you know, you go to where
33:24
Gul'dan's trying to keep the the Legion
33:27
going.
33:27
>> Yep.
33:28
>> Uh and he's got a big demon
33:30
>> Uh-huh.
33:31
>> that he has fused with void.
33:32
>> Uh-huh.
33:33
>> And ordinarily that seems ridiculous.
33:36
How Why would they be fused? Except if
33:38
they both do this kind of thing, both of
33:41
them could essentially be consuming the
33:43
other
33:45
eternally. You could make an eternal
33:47
consumption engine.
33:48
>> An eternal consumption engine that
33:49
generates an incredible amount of arcane
33:51
energy from the breakdown of it as well
33:54
as an incredibly unstable source of
33:56
violence.
33:58
>> But it also means that that's
33:59
potentially the case for every force or
34:02
there might be forces that consume and
34:06
forces that can be consumed.
34:08
>> Well, let's take that a step further
34:10
because we've gotten more confirmation
34:11
of that in this expansion and and in
34:12
fact in this entire last raid tier. Cuz
34:15
what is the other thing that has been
34:17
consuming people from the inside out?
34:20
The light. That is an entire sub theme
34:23
that is happening right now in the game.
34:25
It happens with Turalyon.
34:27
We We And then going back to the book,
34:29
which we all talked about, that happens
34:31
there, too, where it sort sort of takes
34:33
over them.
34:34
We even have a raid encounter around it,
34:36
where we have the three paladins that we
34:38
have to fight because they are air quote
34:40
light blind. But, and I and I and I
34:43
brought this up in raid, and I brought
34:44
this up uh I don't think I've done it on
34:46
the podcast, but it's something that
34:48
I've been thinking about after watching
34:49
them. When
34:51
and this is a wild ride and going on a
34:52
wild tangent, so so bear with me a
34:54
little bit here. Things that I noticed
34:56
uh in game that I think have more
34:58
meaning than maybe where we've looked
35:01
at. One,
35:02
do we Magisters' Terrace, you don't kill
35:04
anybody. Nothing nothing you you fight
35:07
as far as elf goes
35:09
die. They're all unconscious. Even when
35:12
the void like beats down the elves
35:15
before you get to them after the first
35:18
boss, second boss, um they're
35:20
unconscious. They're not dead. The void
35:21
did not kill them, right? It just
35:23
knocked them unconscious and then said,
35:26
"Okay, now I'm going to go after you."
35:27
We've never seen that before. But, then
35:28
going to the raid and seeing the the
35:30
paladins being consumed by light, we
35:32
kill them.
35:33
They are dead.
35:35
All three of them. Their hit points are
35:37
zero. They are not There's no Zs coming
35:39
off them. There's no incapacitated. They
35:41
are corpses.
35:43
How? Why would we kill them? Why
35:46
wouldn't we subdue them?
35:48
I don't think we killed them.
35:50
I think they were so consumed by the
35:52
light that literally they were
35:54
essentially walking corpses of the
35:56
light.
35:56
>> Well, I mean, what is We already know
35:59
that the Arathi present the light as a
36:02
fire.
36:02
>> Yep. And what does fire do?
36:05
>> Yeah, if if you are burning yourself,
36:08
what's the old thing that you you can't
36:09
set yourself on fire to keep other
36:10
people warm? Maybe the light can people
36:13
who do reach the light, if they're not
36:15
careful, they can set themselves on
36:17
fire.
36:18
And when they do, they no longer think
36:21
for themselves. They only think the way
36:23
the light would have them. They don't
36:24
They You're calling it lot blindness,
36:27
it might just be a better another way of
36:29
saying, you know, they no longer have an
36:31
independent will.
36:33
They are the lights. They are so the
36:36
lights that if you kill them, they die
36:38
because that there's nothing there.
36:40
They're not possessed. They're not used
36:44
in the way like a possession victim
36:45
might be.
36:47
They are They have given themselves to
36:49
that. Yeah. And it's not It's It's more
36:51
like obsession. It's from outside. And
36:54
it doesn't dwell in them. And when you
36:57
kill them, the their souls are gone
36:59
anyway. They've already been gone.
37:01
>> Yeah, and and there's a level of that,
37:03
too, that I think goes back to the
37:04
Shadowlands stuff that we were talking
37:05
about, uh which is anima. What is anima?
37:09
Right? Anima is a fuel source. And
37:12
we've seen anima be consumed. We've seen
37:16
anima
37:17
be like completely destroyed, right?
37:21
We've seen it multiple times.
37:23
Heck, Garrosh, in his, you know, final
37:26
torturous state, blows himself up,
37:28
unmakes himself in his anima form. We
37:32
know that anima can be destroyed. And
37:34
what is a soul? A soul is essentially
37:37
anima.
37:37
>> Yeah, I mean, it's it's why they
37:39
actually were taking That's literally
37:40
where they were getting their anima in
37:42
the Shadowlands, from souls.
37:45
It's kind of like it comes back to me to
37:46
that idea that we've seen brought up
37:48
multiple times in multiple different, um
37:51
contexts, the idea that the light and
37:53
the void and all these other things were
37:55
originally part of something and then
37:58
they were separated out to create
38:00
Basically, they can You can only create
38:03
diversity by having diverse things.
38:06
And if everything is just this one
38:08
thing, then it isn't anything. In order
38:10
for things to exist, they have to be
38:13
different from other things. They have
38:14
to be boundaries. And the conflict of
38:17
those boundaries is what creates every
38:19
individual thing that makes up the the
38:21
quilt, if you will, of existence. And
38:24
And if that's the case, then
38:28
the destroying of the anima isn't
38:29
necessarily destroying it so much as
38:32
it's turn returning it to its original
38:34
primordial state of just being anima. Of
38:37
And everything everything you see in the
38:39
Shadowlands is ultimately anima, and
38:41
perhaps everything you see in every
38:42
other version of reality is just another
38:44
fractal level of anima.
38:46
>> Mhm.
38:47
>> It's just, you know, we from going from
38:49
the subatomic particles of
38:51
to to use a the modern analogy with
38:53
quantum uh computing and quantum
38:55
tunneling, there's that idea that you
38:57
can have two photons that are
38:59
billions of light-years apart, but
39:01
they're linked on a on a subatomic
39:03
quantum level, so that if one is here
39:06
doing this, the other one you can know
39:08
exactly where it is and what it's doing
39:10
because it can't be doing what that one.
39:12
And
39:13
that could be how anima works in that
39:16
you can have two souls
39:19
that are actually the same soul. And
39:21
we've seen that. We've seen souls get
39:22
fragmented. We've seen souls get broken
39:25
up and used, and they're still connected
39:28
to each other. And that implies that,
39:30
you know, the anima that makes them up,
39:32
it might be broken, it might be
39:35
destroyed, but how do we, you know,
39:37
energy can never be created nor
39:38
destroyed. It's just used. And I'm not
39:41
saying that the, you know, this is
39:42
limited in that way cuz this is magic in
39:44
a video game, uh but I do think it's
39:46
worth considering
39:48
if anima can be destroyed or if it can
39:51
merely be changed.
39:53
And we've seen all the things it can be.
39:55
>> But we know But we know it can be
39:57
consumed. Look at the Devourers.
39:59
>> Yeah.
40:00
But what are they doing? Like, do they
40:02
turn it back into the primordial stuff
40:05
before the First Ones? Like, what is
40:08
what are they doing? Cuz they're not
40:10
void. What is going on with the
40:12
Devourers?
40:12
>> No, they're they're closer to Tyranids
40:14
than in 40K than they are to the
40:16
um They seem to be gathering anima and
40:18
consuming not just anima but anything to
40:21
to sort of gain biomass.
40:23
>> Well, we know full well that anything
40:25
that they would consume is ultimately
40:27
anima.
40:27
>> Yeah.
40:28
>> Like anima is everything ultimately.
40:30
It's it's it'd be like saying, you know,
40:32
these monsters devour subatomic
40:34
particles. Like, well, I'm fine. I'm not
40:36
a subatomic particle. But you're made of
40:37
them.
40:38
>> Oh, no.
40:39
>> bad.
40:40
It's bad, Joey.
40:42
>> I think that
40:43
one of the big questions we'll have to
40:44
get the answer to eventually is what is
40:46
this universe? What How does everything
40:49
work? And it's not like, you know, it's
40:52
not like we're watching a movie where
40:53
there's only 10 minutes left and they
40:54
don't have time to explain everything.
40:56
Like, we've all been here. We've all
40:58
been here for a decades. We're we're in
41:00
it for the long haul. I think that we
41:02
already have heard that there's going to
41:04
be a grand conspiracy of the Titans
41:07
unveiled in it in one more expansion.
41:10
And hopefully we'll get a little bit of
41:11
the answers of what the Titans are and
41:14
and things like that. But like also,
41:16
yeah, what is anima and where is this
41:17
stuff going and how is this How How do
41:21
the forces relate to each other? Some of
41:23
Some of these big picture cosmology
41:25
questions just have to be answered
41:28
and it's getting soon. It's not like
41:30
it's 15 years ago
41:32
>> the expansion.
41:33
I have [laughter] one expansion.
41:35
You know, if it's not answered in this
41:36
expansion, we are going to look at you.
41:39
Like seriously, you're going to get such
41:40
a look from me.
41:41
>> Those of us who have been playing for
41:42
decades, like, we're going to be around
41:44
for a while, but not forever. We get We
41:46
need these answers.
41:47
>> Yeah. I know. I've never heard anyone
41:49
say you have to tell us to lore before
41:51
we die.
41:52
>> [laughter]
41:52
>> I can't argue with it.
41:54
>> Well, if the business model keeps
41:56
working, then they'll say, "Yeah, yeah,
41:57
we'll tell we'll tell you at the end
41:59
when we we have World of Warcraft the
42:01
end when it becomes like just not
42:03
profitable."
42:04
>> If it keeps They just They just show up
42:06
the Make-A-Wish Make-A-Wish Foundation
42:08
kid and they just show up with his pen
42:09
and whisper it all into his ear and he's
42:10
like, "That's stupid."
42:13
>> Do I get to do a Make-A-Wish when I'm 95
42:15
years old and say, "I want to know what
42:17
the end of World of Warcraft is?"
42:18
>> I mean, let's I have thoughts on this,
42:21
but they're not appropriate for the
42:22
show. So, we're going to move on.
42:24
>> [laughter]
42:26
>> Uh but hopefully that answers or at
42:27
least gives you a little more
42:29
um insight, I guess I would say, uh into
42:32
maybe some of that. Uh so, I think we're
42:35
going to move on to the next one and
42:35
this one comes from Stouts. Uh and it is
42:38
a three-parter. We'll see how many we
42:39
can get through here before we run out
42:41
of time. Um first, the book Storm Rage,
42:44
Malfurion kind of describes the rift of
42:46
Aln, and it seems a lot like what we see
42:49
in Hyjal with a bottomless pit. There's
42:51
supposed to be a nightmare lord sealed
42:53
up within. Do you think that was Xavius
42:56
or is there something worse for below
42:59
for us to encounter?
43:00
>> I don't think it's
43:01
>> It Well, Xavius or or whoever Xavius was
43:04
>> Yeah, but Xavius was literally calling
43:05
himself the nightmare lord. So, at the
43:07
least, he knows who it is.
43:09
>> Yeah.
43:10
>> Yeah, he could've been talking like, you
43:11
know, the nightmare lord because he he
43:13
might just have been a puppet for the
43:14
nightmare lord. It might not be a Xavius
43:16
left in there anymore. Just a husk that
43:19
just remembers what a
43:21
tool Malfurion can be
43:24
and is dedicating what little love of
43:25
his existence is to to just needling
43:28
that guy as much as possible. Uh but
43:31
regardless, I think it it was much more
43:33
a reference to Xavius.
43:35
Cuz you got to remember that that that
43:36
book came out before um
43:39
Legion
43:40
and Xavius' return in game. So, it felt
43:42
like they were setting that up. That
43:44
That's my theory.
43:45
>> Yeah. And and Xavius is a little bit
43:47
different. So, we actually know
43:50
not a lot, but a little bit about uh
43:52
Xavius in the Dream Rift. Um and like we
43:56
can go from the adventure guide which
43:57
gives us just a a tiny little bit of it.
44:00
Um which is that, you know, when Aln
44:03
aharak was taken from a cradle, only
44:05
pain and madness was left to shape the
44:07
chaos of the rift, this area directly
44:10
beneath the cradle. Uh Chimeras feasted
44:12
on the void left behind, gorging itself
44:14
on other nightmares' manifestations. Now
44:16
it stands as the monster within the
44:18
rift, a being of agony and rage. Um and
44:22
as you are fighting it, it has
44:25
a lot of quotes about only being able to
44:28
hear her suffering, her pain, only being
44:30
able to hear her anguish. Um it it's it
44:35
he is essentially very much a discarded
44:40
being of the leftovers, if that makes
44:43
sense. Um
44:45
>> Yeah, I mean, you know, I won't I'm not
44:47
going to reference Diablo again, but I
44:48
mean, heck, think of Star Trek uh The
44:50
Next Generation.
44:51
You know, a skin of evil left behind by
44:53
a race of titans. Essentially, that's
44:55
what we're talking about. It's it's
44:57
it's the nightmares We've seen that that
45:00
um I'm just going to say up to front, I
45:02
think that Azeroth and Elune are the
45:04
same thing.
45:05
>> Sure, which is entirely probable or
45:07
possible at this point.
45:09
>> And in terms of that, we've seen her
45:11
nightmares. We We they One time, Magni
45:14
was trying to talk to her, and he got
45:16
the nightmare channel instead. Uh that's
45:19
It's quite possible that Magni was
45:21
literally talking to the the nightmares
45:23
left behind when the when Azeroth was
45:26
taken somewhere. And
45:29
that to me implies that, you know, this
45:31
kind of Chimer- I want to say Chimeras,
45:34
and that's not his name. Is it?
45:35
>> It's It's I can't Chimaron, right?
45:37
>> Chimeras.
45:38
>> Okay, it is Chimeras. Thank god. I could
45:40
not get My brain kept saying, "No, it's
45:41
the wrong It's the other one." Like,
45:43
which one is it? And I don't know, man.
45:45
Anyway, I think that it's quite possible
45:47
that um the nightmares themselves are
45:51
the nightmare lord. That isn't Like,
45:53
there isn't an individual being.
45:55
It's that the nightmares are still
45:57
there, still being you know, still
46:00
torturing Azeroth, even though Azeroth
46:02
isn't there anymore because Azeroth is
46:04
practically everywhere in a way.
46:06
This whole thing is Azeroth. So, I think
46:09
that that could be what we're talking. I
46:11
don't know for sure.
46:12
>> You know, they may end up doing
46:13
something else.
46:14
>> Yeah, and I I do do want to just jump in
46:15
real quick before Eric gives his two
46:17
cents about um I just want to go through
46:19
the Xal'atath quotes real quick cuz I
46:20
think they kind of lend to this a little
46:22
bit. Um one is just I will consume the
46:25
void. Uh two, you cannot escape the
46:27
rift. Three, feel the agony of the
46:30
undreamt.
46:31
Uh and then four is I hear the
46:33
heartbeats of the dying. Um which
46:36
definitely leads to this idea more akin
46:38
to like what Matt's saying that
46:40
you know,
46:42
possibly another name for the nascent
46:44
world soul uh to the people that
46:46
discovered it and whatever happened to
46:48
Azeroth whether she outgrew the cradle
46:50
um because it is referred to as the
46:52
cradle. I mean, and what do you put in a
46:54
cradle? A baby. Uh babies outgrow the
46:57
cradle and need to be moved or or you
46:59
know, go somewhere else. So, whether
47:00
it's a you know, a toddler bed and then
47:02
eventually a you know, an adult bed. Uh
47:04
same kind of
47:05
>> Race car bed.
47:06
>> Yeah, I mean, who knows? Azeroth might
47:07
have upgraded to a race car bed.
47:09
Um
47:10
but that also lends sort of credence to
47:12
the Magni stuff as well because when
47:14
Magni reached out to Azeroth what is it
47:18
he said? It was like a child crying out.
47:21
Right? And going back to the comic of
47:23
him and Moira talking like Moira was mad
47:26
at him because she saw him treating
47:30
Azeroth essentially the way she wanted
47:32
to have been treated as his own kid.
47:34
And like there was a lot of that that
47:36
sort of similarly a lot of that
47:37
comparison, a lot of that that
47:39
connection of Azeroth being a child. Uh
47:43
well, it's entirely possible here that
47:45
that's exactly what happened too. Where
47:47
like she was taken from here but it's a
47:51
cosmic entity. And the impact that is
47:54
left behind by a cosmic entity is not
47:56
insignificant. And when babies dream and
48:00
children dream, it is sometimes the most
48:05
real, I guess I'd say, because
48:07
weird real science thing, you get less
48:11
REM sleep as you get older. As a baby,
48:14
as a young child, you have like the most
48:16
REM sleep percentage-wise. And when do
48:19
you dream? You dream during REM sleep.
48:21
And so this like representing I I, you
48:24
know, feel the agony of the undreamt.
48:26
When Azeroth dreams something, it
48:28
becomes physical. It It manifests.
48:32
That's the power. We've seen it. We've
48:34
literally seen it. We've fought against
48:35
it multiple times. Feel the agony of the
48:38
undreamt. These are dreams or thoughts
48:40
or things that were never fully formed
48:42
and left behind. So, yeah, there's
48:44
there's maybe an element of that. So, I
48:47
don't know. We'll We'll see.
48:48
>> Well, there's that old that old poem,
48:50
you know, when I was a child, I dreamt
48:51
of childish things, but as a man, I must
48:54
put them away. If Azeroth is trying to
48:57
grow up, that might be something that's
48:58
happening.
48:59
>> Mhm. Eric?
49:01
>> Yeah, I think that
49:02
I never really considered Chimaeron to
49:04
be anything other than just like what
49:05
was left over
49:07
in the rift just kind of growing. Like,
49:09
you know,
49:10
you toss a hundred coefficient to a pond
49:12
and you come back five years later and
49:13
you're like, "Huh, there's only one left
49:15
and it's really big. Wonder what
49:17
happened to the other ones?" Like, they
49:19
all ate each other until there was only
49:20
one left. So, it it even says in the
49:23
description, it gorged itself on other
49:25
nightmarish manifestations. Like, that
49:28
suggests to me that it's just one of
49:29
those manifestations and it was just the
49:31
biggest to start with and it just ate a
49:32
whole bunch of the rest of them.
49:35
Um
49:36
yeah.
49:36
>> Yeah. Uh we got time for I think the
49:39
second part of this at least, so we'll
49:40
go on to part two here.
49:42
Uh the last we saw Xal'atath and her
49:44
forces, they went down into the the
49:47
Dawnwell. Or this Uh they're below
49:49
surface doing what? Are we going under
49:51
again? What else in lore would we see?
49:54
So, this is one of the the I don't want
49:56
to say more delightful things,
49:58
um but it's one of the things where this
50:00
is a wide open space.
50:03
We don't know where it leads. And And I
50:06
would like to welcome you back to the
50:07
idea that the, you know, Well of
50:10
Eternity, uh all these massive pools of
50:13
power
50:14
are not necessarily direct pathways to
50:17
something. They are and they aren't.
50:20
They are often used as magical portals
50:23
that take you to somewhere else. And
50:25
that very well may be what Xal'atath was
50:27
trying to do,
50:29
which was powered up with void, which
50:31
she can control. It's something that she
50:33
is is
50:34
capable of manipulating, and getting
50:36
that massive amount of [clears throat]
50:38
power corrupted in order to take her
50:40
somewhere else.
50:42
Because don't forget, we've seen what
50:44
Kil'jaeden came through the Sunwell,
50:46
right? We had to fight him. That was
50:48
great. Um we've seen, you know,
50:52
um
50:53
Why can't I remember his name now? The
50:55
other one.
50:55
>> Archimonde?
50:56
>> Archimonde?
50:56
>> Archimonde. We've seen Archimonde come
50:58
through, you know, the Well of Eternity,
51:00
or at least attempt to, or try to.
51:03
Um we've seen so many pools of power be
51:05
used as this that it very likely isn't a
51:07
necessarily we're going back under,
51:10
which we might be. Uh but it can lead to
51:12
literally anywhere. And it could be the
51:15
exact point where Azeroth was moved to,
51:18
which may not actually be inside of the
51:20
planet anymore. We don't know. Pocket
51:21
dimensions are weird. Uh but I think
51:23
it's cool because there's an infinite
51:24
number of possibilities of what it could
51:27
actually lead to, or where it could
51:28
actually be that we're going for uh for
51:31
the next set of of encounters, I guess
51:34
what I would say. What do you guys
51:35
think?
51:36
>> I think that it's most likely that she's
51:39
going to start making moves towards the
51:42
world soul, which, as far as we know, is
51:44
in the the core that we heard about in
51:47
the uh you know the discs that we
51:49
recovered in Dornagal
51:51
um where you know the Titans
51:54
had the earthen build it to protect it
51:57
to quote protect it from outside
51:59
influence and what we're starting to
52:00
suspect is actually to just inject it
52:02
with order and Titanify it up. So are we
52:07
going to follow? Is that is that what's
52:10
coming up in maybe not 12.1 but 12.2?
52:13
Are we going to
52:15
find this whole like the whole zone is
52:17
going to be a just a like a giant
52:18
underground Titan installation like like
52:21
that's going to be on the scale of
52:23
Ulduar but it's the world core and we're
52:25
you know walking along all the machinery
52:27
and stuff.
52:28
Um and I I'm interested to see like
52:31
what's going to happen like when we get
52:33
there we'll be behind Xal'atath.
52:35
Xal'atath will be
52:37
have some time to
52:39
you know start tinkering against the
52:41
defenses whatever they are. We know that
52:43
maybe some of the defenses include we we
52:45
saw the earthen who got too close to the
52:47
world soul returned into diamond. Is
52:49
Xal'atath going to get diamondified and
52:51
have to fight through that? Like will we
52:53
be fighting diamond Xal'atath at the end
52:55
of this expansion? Could be pretty cool.
52:58
Where do we go? We can't take that same
53:01
wherever Xal'atath went. It seems like
53:03
we can't take the void well because it's
53:05
not the void well anymore. If we could
53:07
we probably would have done it by now.
53:09
So
53:10
we're going to have to find another way
53:12
to get there. Maybe we're going to
53:15
find a way through I mean I've been
53:18
saying this for a long time but can we
53:19
please go through the undersea to at
53:20
least find somebody who can tell us how
53:23
to get there? Um I would love to explore
53:26
the little creepy fish that whisper to
53:28
us from the waters of Hollowfall and
53:30
find out that there's another way to
53:32
>> Azshara? Yeah got it. I'm with you.
53:33
>> Yeah yeah yeah.
53:35
>> [laughter]
53:37
>> Matt
53:39
>> And laundry
53:40
>> More than a word. Let's go.
53:41
>> When a baby is being
53:44
you know, when you have a baby but you
53:47
can't take care of the baby for whatever
53:48
reason, you have, you know, if you can
53:51
usually you know, look for an older
53:53
relative perhaps a moon of some kind
53:57
to take care of that child. Um, and we
54:01
know Elune has a world where she hid a
54:04
titan at one point. Maybe that that was
54:07
described
54:09
as a moon. What was it a moon of?
54:11
>> Well, I mean Avoidwell does very much
54:13
look like an eclipsed
54:15
>> Yeah, and we know that
54:17
and when she was really mad and was
54:19
working through the night warrior, Elune
54:21
literally turned it into permanent
54:23
night.
54:24
>> Yeah, for those of you that don't know
54:25
for those of you that may not remember
54:27
the Elundris or Lundris um, are a series
54:31
of of night elves that
54:33
were essentially they pay homage to
54:35
those that came before them, the first
54:37
elves.
54:38
Um, they exist because Elune had opened
54:41
their eyes to renewed wisdom, in this
54:45
case dark visions, the ominous reality
54:47
of the Horde's expansionism and their
54:49
unholy pact with the undead against
54:51
Elune's final warning to their their
54:53
race, act or die. Um, so the Elundris
54:56
were the these groups of folks that have
54:58
the ability
55:00
see portents, I guess would be the best
55:02
way to put it, provided by Elune but not
55:05
the bright shining, you know, perfect
55:08
diamondish Elune, the dark
55:11
rimmed eternal night, the
55:15
>> the new Elune, yeah. The one of rebirth.
55:18
>> Yeah, if you want to use them, you know,
55:20
we know that there's the they kind of
55:22
have the maiden mother crone thing going
55:23
on. There's three aspects to Elune. Uh,
55:27
one is the night warrior, one is the
55:29
motherly figure, and one is the revealer
55:32
of secrets, the for lack of a better
55:34
word, the psychopomp.
55:35
>> Mhm.
55:36
>> And we even know that there's spirits
55:37
that are floating in the the astral sea
55:41
with her waiting to be sent on. Um
55:45
she she helps decide when and where
55:48
elv- Elven people's spirits go. Like she
55:51
can she can say no, no, sorry Mr.
55:54
Arbiter person, but you are nothing and
55:56
I'm going to ignore you and I'm going to
55:58
put these spirits
55:59
where my sister at and there's doesn't
56:02
seem to be anything the Arbiter can do
56:03
about it.
56:04
So, there's a lot
56:06
I think that there is a possibility that
56:09
we're literally going to have to go talk
56:11
to Elune.
56:12
>> I think we will and I think
56:13
>> know
56:14
>> I go ahead.
56:15
>> But no, I all I was going to say is I
56:17
don't know if it's going to be we
56:18
literally go someplace where we talk to
56:20
Elune physically or if it's going to be
56:22
like previous encounters we've had with
56:24
Elune where we talk to somebody that
56:27
Elune is using to speak to us, but I
56:30
think we're going to have to go
56:31
somewhere to get closer to Elune. And
56:34
I'm going to call it now, I would like
56:36
it if if a Moonkin was the the way we
56:39
got there.
56:40
>> Yeah, so
56:41
>> this whole time the Moonkin had the way
56:42
to go there cuz we've seen them do this.
56:45
>> Yeah, I I think that's
56:47
I think that's fun [snorts] and and I'm
56:50
I'm on board with that and I would not
56:51
be surprised if that is Moonkin.
56:53
But I have a feeling that it's not going
56:54
to be where we expect it to be. I'm
56:56
going to call it now, it's going to be
56:58
in Suramar because that's where we found
57:01
the Scroll of Alundra's.
57:03
Right? Just outside the city proper. Um
57:06
I forgot what region it is. Um I I think
57:08
it was like outside of Meridel or inside
57:11
of Meridel.
57:12
Um
57:13
but there's all these areas around there
57:15
where you could see a, you know,
57:19
founding of uh Moonkin or a a settlement
57:23
of Moonkin somewhere that we haven't
57:24
explored yet. There's mountains that we
57:25
haven't fully explored. Um there's the
57:27
areas around the Moon- Moonguard
57:29
Stronghold up there. Um but it would
57:31
make sense because it's one of the
57:33
oldest cities of the elves that we have
57:35
access to.
57:36
Um, you know, and where they worshiped
57:38
Elune before everything went real
57:41
sideways with
57:42
Azshara, right?
57:44
>> where Tyrande Whisperwind was picked by
57:46
Elune herself.
57:47
>> Yep, and we know
57:48
and we know that the oldest moon well
57:51
moon wells exist in that area between
57:54
Azshara
57:56
and
57:57
Suramar and why can't I remember the
57:59
other the other area? Like those three
58:02
Elven areas right where they all tend to
58:04
meet,
58:05
those regions we have.
58:06
>> you're talking about, the one with the
58:07
ghost city.
58:08
>> Val'sharah. Val'sharah, yeah.
58:10
Val'sharah, thank you. But they have
58:12
some of the oldest moon wells and
58:13
they're all kind of centered right
58:15
around the borders of each other. Right?
58:18
>> I don't I don't necessarily think that
58:19
we're going to talk to Elune there, but
58:22
I do think that we might travel to Elune
58:24
from there.
58:25
>> Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, right?
58:26
Like where that's going to be where we
58:27
have to go to figure out what we have to
58:28
do next.
58:30
>> Because it would make sense to a certain
58:31
degree because both both of that area
58:35
it's it's from a place that was on the
58:38
coast of the original Well of Eternity.
58:40
>> Yeah.
58:41
>> It's In fact, it was on the exact
58:43
opposite side as the city of Elun'dris,
58:47
which is which was originally translated
58:49
as glory of Elune, the city that was
58:52
transformed into Zin-Azshari.
58:54
>> Mhm.
58:55
>> Suramar was its sister on the other side
58:57
of the moon well.
58:58
So, that bridge that just kind of goes
59:01
nowhere from the original
59:03
>> It connected the two cities.
59:05
>> Yeah. Yeah. The bridge that goes from
59:07
the Tomb of Sargeras, which was
59:09
originally the Temple of Elune,
59:10
out to the original city of Elune. Like
59:14
there's there's a lot of possibilities
59:15
for this.
59:16
And oddly enough, it would even make a
59:18
certain amount of sense if this is when
59:20
Azshara starts popping up again.
59:22
>> Yeah, because she's very heavily tied in
59:24
with all of that.
59:25
>> Yeah, and she's jealous of Elune. Oh,
59:27
yeah. And has always been jealous of
59:30
Elune.
59:30
>> Those eyes might as well be green, not
59:32
gold, you know what I'm saying?
59:33
>> Yeah, well, that's the other thing.
59:35
Imagine if you get a scene where Azshara
59:37
confronts Elune and Elune is like, "No,
59:38
I love you. I picked you
59:41
when you were a baby. I held you.
59:43
>> I blessed you. I wanted you to be my
59:44
voice.
59:45
>> And and Azshara gets so mad, like, "No!
59:49
Like, I will serve nothing, you know?"
59:52
>> Well, whatever happens, Azshara is 10
59:54
steps ahead of us. So, whatever wherever
59:56
we go, she's going to come in when it
59:58
suits her.
59:59
>> Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, that that's why
1:00:02
I think that the you know, the whole
1:00:04
concept of Elundris, the people, the
1:00:06
city,
1:00:07
just
1:00:09
you know, the the moon Elune and Eonar,
1:00:11
all of these places tie into something
1:00:14
that's that I think might be
1:00:17
If you're going to like, you have to
1:00:19
baby sit a world soul, you know, and
1:00:21
you're going to have to do it for a long
1:00:22
time. You know, you might move her
1:00:24
around. It might She might not be kept
1:00:27
in the same place very long. I mean, I
1:00:29
certainly wouldn't.
1:00:30
You know, this Sargeras is coming for
1:00:32
her like a creepy stalker. There's lots
1:00:35
of other problems and threats. Yeah, I'm
1:00:36
going to keep this kid hidden. So, yeah,
1:00:38
I think that that that is at least a
1:00:40
possibility.
1:00:40
>> Well, any parting thoughts on that
1:00:42
before we call it there, gentlemen?
1:00:43
>> I like that idea that that there might
1:00:45
be like a population of moonkin or
1:00:47
something that we that's like isolated
1:00:50
that we we finally find and we're like,
1:00:52
"We're trying to contact Elune." And
1:00:54
they're like, "Oh, yeah, we do that all
1:00:55
the time. That's That's what we do. Why
1:00:57
didn't you ask us earlier?" Like,
1:00:59
there's so many stories from science of
1:01:01
scientists who are like trying to track
1:01:02
down this elusive keystone species
1:01:05
that's like really rare and there's very
1:01:08
few records of it and there's like two
1:01:10
examples of half of a fin in a museum
1:01:13
collection
1:01:14
>> Or the ancient rock rat which literally
1:01:16
everyone said was extinct. And then one
1:01:18
day a guy in a guy found it in a market
1:01:20
and they were they were selling it as
1:01:21
food.
1:01:22
>> No, "Oh,
1:01:23
>> There's a hundred of them over there.
1:01:24
>> The scientist travel somewhere and talk
1:01:26
to the indigenous people of that area
1:01:28
and they're like, "Oh, you mean the
1:01:29
little red fish? Yeah, I've got a bucket
1:01:31
of them over here. We use them to um,
1:01:33
you know, for snacks and their scales
1:01:35
are useful for this. Like, you should
1:01:36
have asked us earlier. We They're like,
1:01:39
"There's somebody out there that maybe
1:01:40
has this information and that we could
1:01:41
find them and that they're just, you
1:01:43
know, we haven't thought to ask yet." is
1:01:45
interesting instead of us having to do
1:01:46
the work.
1:01:47
>> What's really funny is like they do
1:01:48
establish all the way back, the original
1:01:51
game back back in 2004. There's a big
1:01:54
quest line that has you ultimately
1:01:56
finding out that the moon can are
1:01:58
literally
1:02:00
former servants of Elune who can still
1:02:04
call on her power and summon a giant
1:02:06
lozenge at one point which you they then
1:02:08
commune with.
1:02:10
And you're sitting there going, "Is
1:02:11
isn't that like a like a NyQuil gel cap?
1:02:13
Why are they talking to the gel cap?"
1:02:15
And then you've just the moon suddenly
1:02:17
does something and you're like, "What
1:02:19
that what just happened?"
1:02:21
And it would it would make sense. They
1:02:23
they they are the they are the servants
1:02:25
of Elune to the point where druids can
1:02:27
eventually turn into them.
1:02:29
So, yeah. I I think that it would be
1:02:31
nice. But, at the same time I I feel
1:02:33
like I've
1:02:34
I've kind of talked enough. So, I'm
1:02:35
going to shut up now. [laughter]
1:02:36
>> All right. Well, then friends, I think
1:02:38
that's going to do it for today. I do
1:02:39
want to thank you for joining us and
1:02:41
remind you that Blizzard Watch is made
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