Up next in 10
While we're all excited about the new trailer for Midnight from gamescom, Matt and Joe took this opportunity to discuss what narrative threads we may see in Midnight as a whole. They recap some of our adventures on K'aresh, discuss the order of what might be coming, plus what the nature of the energy-based Ethereals have to do with Azeroth. It's a multi-faceted lore deep dive on the story up to now, and some conjecture as to what we may see in the future as a result.
And we'd just like to disclaim that Matt and Joe recorded this on August 18, with absolutely no knowledge from the gamescom trailer. Just a lot of lore in their heads.
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0:00
[Music]
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, round table free form discussion about learning your favorite media. I'm your host Joe Perez, one of several lore
0:17
focused folks from Blizzard Watch. And I've got my marvelous co-host with me today, Matt Rossy. How you doing today, Matt?
0:22
Um, I got dragged into this by the elf. That that's that's what I'm doing here.
0:28
I got the elf dragged me into this. That's that's one of my favorite parts of the whole thing, man. Well, well, I mean, it's kind of the
0:35
what we're going to be talking about a little bit today, I guess, because uh one, this is going to be a spoiler-filled episode. Uh I'm going to
0:41
warn you guys right now up front. Uh we're going to be talking about the story of the Ghost of Caresh, which is
0:48
the current WoW patch up through uh basically what happens to the end of the raid. Uh if we can get there. If we
0:55
can't, then we'll we'll we'll do another episode, but we'll see how far we get. Um, basically, there's a lot of stuff
1:00
that happens that I thought it would be relevant for us to one talk about, but also sort of give our insights to it. A
1:06
lot of people have been asking for us to sort of like chime in. So, figured now is a good time. So, I guess we'll start
1:14
where the things always start or seem to always start, which is we completely seem to forget about what our current
1:20
threats are because there's a new cosmic threat on our doorstep, which requires us to go to another planet uh to help
1:27
the uh etherealss and help the brokers and help uh in particular uh in this
1:33
case uh Locust Walker uh to stop Dementius from being reborn into the
1:39
galaxy. Now, don't get me wrong, it's a bad thing for everybody in the galaxy if Dementius gets reborn. Uh, but I feel
1:45
like it was just sort of I don't know, whiplash is the best way that I can put it, I guess, would be my
1:51
my first impression about it. We go from stopping Giwix and liberating uh
1:56
Undermind to flying across the cosmos to a voidbound planet with our friends the
2:02
the Brokers and the Etherealss uh to start trying to take the fight to a uh
2:08
cosmic level threat again. I don't know how you felt about it, Matt. Oh, I I got lucky in that I just resubed
2:14
and re everything um after a relatively long break. And I'll be upfront. I
2:22
didn't have even the slightest effing interest in Yiwixs or whatever the heck the the Goblins are up to. In fact, I
2:29
delayed resubbing because of that patch. This was what I wanted. When I heard
2:34
what this was, I'm like, now this is what I thought we were getting. This is what I wanted. This is my favorite patch
2:41
already before I even played it. And then I played it and I was like, oh yeah, I liked I liked the intro chapter.
2:49
I really did. I like the first part of The War Within. I had zero interest in goblin shenanigans, which is fine. I'm
2:56
not saying it's bad. I'm saying I personally don't care. Um, but then we got this and I was like, "Oh, oh, oh,
3:03
heck yes. I am I am down for it." And I was so instead of having whiplash, I was
3:08
super relieved that I could just go straight to this. See, and quite frankly, that's what I wanted. Oh, so gosh, you're trying to
3:15
talk and I'm No, no, no. You're good. You're good. I was just going to say I agree with you. Like it's one of those things where like I definitely wanted to do this. I just
3:20
didn't expect it to happen so soon. Like it I Here's the thing though and I I I mean
3:26
are we going spoilers right out the door? The warning. We've already given the warning. I I was like this was so
3:33
it was telegraph a setup. Yeah. It's No, no, it's a setup for other stuff. Like we're going to find out as
3:40
we're recording this. We're going to find out in like two days like we're going to see the first looks at midnight.
3:45
Yeah. Um, and I am positive. I'm just going to drop this. There's stuff in
3:51
Caresh that makes me think that we are finally going to find out that the Titans
3:57
are just straight up full of beep. Yeah, I mean, I straight up. I think we're both on the same page
4:03
on that one. Yeah. And I think that this is the first there's a whole thing in this in this uh
4:10
chapter about the world soul of Caresh and is it still going? Is it still
4:17
alive? Has this the world soul somehow survived Dimensius? And
4:24
that to me sets up so much for what's actually going to happen on Azeroth in
4:30
Midnight. Uh, and so I thought like that was the first thing that hit me was like
4:36
Caresh is just the appetizer. It's just the warm-up. And I had not expected it
4:42
to be that. I expected Caresh to be like a whole expansion. But then again, I thought Argus could have been a whole
4:48
expansion. You know what I'm saying? So that's that's part of where I'm getting at. Like this this this sort of and we
4:53
we'll get into the meat of the story here in a minute. It it had shades of Argus. Don't get me wrong, like I didn't
4:59
mind going to Argus, but I thought that Argus could have been an entire
5:04
expansion on its own, potentially with the the meat of the story that could be derived from there. And in fact, at one
5:10
point, I figured that Argus and Caresh would be dealt with at the same time
5:17
because they have similar threads and similar fates. Now, the reason I say whiplash is not because, again, I want
5:23
to make this perfectly clear. It's not that I I hate that we're on Cores and doing what we're doing. It's just that
5:29
we have left two very large gaping holes back on Azeroth that we spent the last
5:37
two patches setting up to completely drop. And usually, at least I will say
5:43
this, um the last few expansions have not been that egregious in leaving that
5:50
many loose threads open. Uh I will say that I think one of the threads is actually part of this maybe
5:58
and and I'll explain why, but I do get what you're saying and I don't even disagree with you. Um I think that to a
6:05
certain degree uh and and this is speculation on my part, but I
6:11
think to a certain degree what happened was some of The War Within was written before certain things happened to the
6:17
Blizzard team. Yeah. And some of it was written after. I I I was going to say I think some of it was written before the the a certain someone
6:24
came back in particular and some of it may have been rewritten after and pushed up and moved around a bit. Um because
6:31
what this feels like to me is Caresh feels like something that should have been like the opening salvo to Midnight
6:37
and it is. Yeah. But it's like but you you mean it should been the opening of Midnight? like it should have
6:42
literally been we are going to cares in midnight. And and here's the reason I say that and I just want to get because we're going
6:48
to I'm going to get into the the story here in a second because the the the two threads that I and I know one of which I
6:53
think we was probably going to be tied up and this is we never really finished dealing with the Black Blood. We never
6:58
finished dealing with Belladar. We never finished dealing with the Heringar. Like
7:03
all of this stuff is just completely like dropped. The Arafy stuff is
7:09
completely dropped. like the previous patch really doesn't resolve anything with the Arathy. It just sort of, you
7:15
know, yep, we're part we're part of the the world of Azeroth now and everybody sings and dances and and fights together
7:22
and then we move on with our lives. It just seems like a lot of that discord didn't get solved. And in chapter one or
7:30
the first part of the War Within, the Earth and stuff seems pretty buttoned up. Like that stuff's fine. Like that
7:36
was I thought that was really cohesive. That was great. the undermined stuff tied in with the black blood stuff, but then all that gets dropped so that we
7:42
can go here. And I think maybe the black blood stuff does tie in with what we're going to be facing in Midnight, but it
7:49
just it felt to me very jarring. Um, and the reason I say that this feels like an
7:54
opening for an expansion is mostly because of how the story is laid out. So, right now, I believe we have what,
8:01
five or four or five chapters that we have currently available. Um, and in the first one, it's essentially what you
8:07
would expect from the beginning of an opening of any expansion. You're in a new land. You have some familiar allies,
8:14
but mainly you're trying to find new allies uh and get certain pieces in
8:20
place in order to fight the coming threat. It's got that buildup that's supposed to be happening. Um, something
8:27
that we didn't really do with Undermine. And in this particular case, you're
8:33
unlocking the story of the Brokers and the Etherealss, and you're introduced to the fact that the Brokers and the
8:39
Etherealss are the same entities, just one has a different type of containment suit that they live in. So, I think Matt
8:47
may have called that a long long time ago. I think we talked about it on the podcast a long time ago. You find out
8:53
that they they're the same people. Caresh was their home. uh the way that
8:59
they are as a result of what happened and choices that they made and just the brokers decided that they were going to
9:04
go to the Shadowlands and needed a better containment suit uh for the rigorous effects of the Shadowlands,
9:12
which makes sense if they're energies of or beings of pure energy and spirit. Going to the Shadowlands is probably the
9:18
last thing you want to do if you can't contain yourself because you at that point you're pretty much just ripe to go
9:23
into the farm. at least as far as I got. Uh, but then you're starting to learn
9:28
more about the void itself, the history of Caresh, and why the planet was blown
9:35
up. This is the first several chapters. Um, you're also then put into contact
9:41
with not just Locust Walker, but then Zalatath is pulled in as a uh an enemy
9:48
of my enemy is my friend because you're learn throughout the and opening salves
9:54
of this campaign that the reason the Atherealss were able to survive what happened to Crush is because of Zalot
10:00
and that Zalat is the one that warned Locust Walker of Dementius. Uh, and that
10:05
Zalot, even despite being Dementius's Harbinger, doesn't like Dementius. Like,
10:11
there's a whole bunch of like I don't want to say weird, but it's a bunch of story beats that feel like they're
10:17
setting up for a broader story that would be contained over a series of
10:23
months, not weeks. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think that's why if you get
10:28
through the whole campaign, it definitely doesn't resolve itself. No, it doesn't. it it's just it is not
10:35
in any way, shape, or form resolved. Um, if I were to kind of piggyback off what
10:42
you're saying, I think if I were to say one of the confusing things about The War Within is that it is it has no
10:50
through line. Yeah. Well, I I would I would argue that chapters one and two had a through line
10:58
except that because you you just mentioned all the stuff that doesn't get resolved. Yeah. Chapter one, I'll go with you on
11:04
chapter one having a through line. Chapter two, suddenly we go to undermine
11:10
and it's looking like it will be important and the stuff that you're talking about resolving at least some of
11:15
it will get resolved like blood. Yeah, it feels like we're fishing for allies in the fight and going after
11:20
Zelath. Yeah. But then it doesn't get resolved. And part of the
11:26
reason part of the reason it doesn't get resolved in my opinion is that I do think and this is something I've thought
11:32
since I got through this part of the game. I think we were always supposed to
11:39
have a swerve at this point. I don't know what it was going to be
11:45
in terms of where it was going to get placed. I don't I didn't know if it was going to be on Caresh or what, but I think we were going to end up working
11:51
with Zolotath. And part of that is the stuff we saw in the um oh like heck they just announced
11:58
they just introduced these things the the visions from the past that we can go do with the time walkers. You know what
12:04
I'm talking the time walker vision. Yeah. The time walking visions. Um with the lore walkers who take you to you
12:11
know here's the story of Zaladath. And you remember at the time like you said huh they put in a Lich King one but the
12:18
Lich King isn't really involved at all. Mhm. Why' they put that in there? I think
12:26
that's stuff that's going to be coming up. Not just as a it's a it's a metaphor for how uh the uh the Nexus King that we
12:33
fight in in the raid, how he has basically been playing everybody off against each other this whole time. He's
12:40
a king who is basically not ruling properly. uh much as Arthus, you know,
12:45
he lied to the mercenaries and defend betrayed them sort of thing like it's
12:51
how Arthus was doing when when he lost his way that Nexus King has too, but that's just a that's just a motif.
12:58
What I really think is going to be coming up is over and over again we see somebody
13:05
get, you know, their right in their objection, but they let the objection
13:11
over override their ability to make a decision now. Uh, and we see that and we see Ayria
13:19
come like a razor inch away from going there, but managing not to. And I think
13:26
that that's these are stuff that they're setting up to basically say this trilogy of of stories whenever we get to the end
13:33
of this. The goal was to say we're finally definitively breaking
13:41
these cycles, which is something we hear all the time about the old gods. Um, and I think I
13:48
don't think the stuff that we've been talking about, you and I have been talking about, uh, I don't think any of
13:53
that stuff is going to be in the next the next expansion. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think that we're going to
13:58
see Ravagers or any of that stuff, the Devourers. I think we're going to see them in the next one.
14:05
And the reason for that is looking at how this one comes up, how we get to this point. Um, it's pretty clear that
14:13
Zalot when beaten instead of trying to come up with a new
14:18
way to kill us decides I need to co-opt them. Obviously, they're too strong for me to
14:26
just crush them. And instead, I need to use them to get my revenge on Dementius
14:31
and my further plans beyond that because there's effing no way that that this is
14:37
her goal. You know what I mean? Like, Dementius is a step on a path for her.
14:45
And and it is fascinating to think about the fact that, as you pointed out, she was dementia's harbinger. The second she
14:51
got a chance, she betrayed Dementius, a void lord.
14:56
The second she got a chance. The second she got to a planet and she found out there's a thing here that can help me do
15:02
this. I there's just a lot to it that is it is part of what we've been seeing this whole expansion. But I definitely
15:09
agree with you that it feels like they were like, "Okay, we're just jumping over here now." And you're like, "But
15:16
but you literally what what is the deal with the black blood? What? What is going on? What's these bat people you
15:23
made us meet? How what's what are they? What's their deal? Uh the Arai, what's
15:28
their deal? I definitely think we are going to see more of it, but it is incredibly jarring to not see it now.
15:35
Yeah. And and we do know like there are some things like we know that the next expansion is going to deal a lot with
15:41
Azeroth and and going back to Azeroth. That's pretty plain from the the teaser
15:46
trailer that we got for Midnight. And I'm sure that there will be plenty of it to come. But going back to the actual story of it. So
15:54
throughout the the the course of the the meat of the story, we learn um a little bit more about the fact that one cares
16:01
did have a world soul, something that I believe at one point we were told it didn't have. I think it was during a
16:06
Blizzcon interview. Uh but I think we've always speculated that that was a lie. Uh or that it had to have had something
16:13
that had to be important. Um, and that that's the reason why Dementius or the of the void in general was ever
16:20
interested in it. Uh, yeah. And turns out that that's true. Um, you learn that two things happened.
16:29
uh one in order to defeat Dementius uh and to survive the presence of Dementius
16:36
because he is such a devouring and towering creature that would destroy your mortal form that Zalot actually
16:45
worked with the uh the etherealss to essentially give them
16:51
it's a ravel. The Ravvel in particular is the group that she worked with. They Yeah, they call them the Ravvel.
16:56
There there's more to it because it was originally all all people were were involved with this which was a ritual to
17:01
transform all of the the etherealss well whatever they were before being ethereals into etherealss giving them
17:08
the magic bindings and abilities in these wraps or what are called rushi
17:13
wraps essentially uh to essentially replace their physical form with a being an entity of pure energy and keep
17:20
themselves contained. Um, we then learn throughout the story that
17:28
Locust Walker in particular, despite being consumed by the void in in some in
17:35
some capacity or air quote mastering it, um, and saying that he was doing it to
17:41
be a hunter or whatever the case is, uh, was part of the ravel which turned
17:46
Caresh into a bomb. a bomb intended to
17:52
destroy and fragment Dimensius.
17:57
And that happened. Caresh was blown up not by Dementius,
18:02
not by a Titan, but by the very people that lived on that planet itself.
18:08
And Dementius was reduced to scraps, fragments of its former self. Uh
18:15
yeah, one of the things we fought on uh in the Mana Forge way back in in uh Burning Crusade, that was just a
18:21
fragment. Yeah, it was a piece of it. The whole thing. Yeah. Um, and contained within the core of
18:29
Kesh or with the leftovers of it essentially where the mana forge is is essentially a fragment of Dementius that
18:36
is slowly waking up because over time these etherealss that are voidbound or
18:42
bound to dementia whether they this is a willing servitude or a uh forced
18:49
servitude these entities are gathering souls. gathering uh other ethereal energies and
18:57
feeding it to the forge that goes directly into essentially waking Dementius back up. And that is part of
19:04
the whole reason that they wanted the uh I think it was the Nexus stalker or
19:09
whatever um wanted the dark heart to begin with or the prince the Nexus prince. Um,
19:15
no, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, the they wanted the dark heart because it would be able to channel all of that
19:22
void energy, all of that necrotic energy, all of the energy that Zalat had
19:28
been storing and pulling into it to feed into the mana forge to complete their ritual for waking up Dementius. Now, all
19:36
that makes perfect sense in terms of a all-consuming Galactus style void
19:41
entity. I don't have any problems with that. The interesting thing is they
19:46
never ever explain throughout the entire course of this, even through the end of
19:52
the raid, if those void bound were willing or not.
19:59
Yeah, there's a whole thing in this uh patch about oaths
20:06
and about for the for the etherealss and brokers. Oh yeah, we're going to get into that in a sec because I have some opinions.
20:11
Yeah. Uh but oaths are like they transcend
20:17
like will and and it's very if you remember the helm of domination slashhelm of of will uh it's that it's
20:27
very similar to that where you can have this oath that you've sworn whether or not you wanted to swear it once it's out
20:35
there you have to follow it like you can there's a whole exchange
20:41
where yria is like, "You don't have to do this." And they're like, "We I can't die oath an oath breaker."
20:48
Which like it's terrifying to them. And so I'm going to let Joe go. Yeah. Let's let's talk about that and build up to it because one of the things
20:54
you find is that the high priest class, the class of of high priest etherealss
20:59
that used to serve the king uh and used to actually be able to commune with the world soul of Kesh uh in a way that did
21:05
not destroy them or cause them to be like Mag uh like Magny, which I think is interesting. and we never really get to
21:12
dive so deep into that yet. Um, but we find out that pieces of Kesh are still alive that the world soul itself is
21:20
still present there albeit diminished. It seems like it's repairing. Now, that
21:25
makes sense to us because going back to Anourus, going back to that entire raid,
21:32
one of the things you learn is that titans don't die. Not really. They
21:38
reform. They are turn into energy and souls and maybe they can be fragmented because we've seen that as well, but not
21:45
quite the same way that we can be fragmented. Uh, but you find these and they they
21:52
want to kill the ravel. They're oath sworn to kill the ravel because the ravel destroyed Caresh and that's the
21:58
only thing they care about. We make not necessarily peace with them, but we work
22:04
with them with the help of Zelat to essentially win them to our side because
22:10
these wastelanders are incredible soldiers. Uh they've been living on the
22:15
wilds of Caresh since everything happened. And one of the things they talk about is having this oath to
22:21
Caresh. And the part of the story that I take umbrage with is we run into uh I
22:28
think it's Shadowar I think is the king. Um who is a raid boss. Yeah. Yeah.
22:34
Um and he shows up and he's completely voided out on a void dragon and he says,
22:39
"You swore your oaths to me. You now you still serve me. You will not be an
22:45
oathbreaker." And then they just flip on us because of it. And and the the whole
22:50
thing leading up to this is what Matt was talking about. These oaths are important. These oaths are are all
22:55
binding. But you learn that the the the Wastelanders had many oaths. One of
23:01
which was to protect Caresh. And they were talking all the way up to this
23:06
point about how that was the most important oath. And then in this moment,
23:12
that oath is completely forgotten because their king is now working for Dementius and is working to resurrect
23:18
the thing that is going to finish eating their planet. And I don't understand that.
23:25
See, see, here's the thing. I I don't know if I'm right about this,
23:32
and that's that's something I think I'll need to see more from in Midnight. The vibe I got was that they literally can't
23:40
say no because it's not just them swearing their word. There's a magic to
23:46
it. Um, again, similar to the helm of domination where Zeliaak hated
23:52
everything he did and he was still himself enough that he
23:59
could control the light, but he had to do what the Lich King
24:04
wanted him to do. Yes, he didn't matter that what he wanted. It didn't matter as
24:12
long as somebody could control him. I don't know that that's what's happening. I can't absolutely be certain of it. I
24:19
just think that that that is the thing that makes the most sense and aligns with what we see
24:26
in Caresh. But there is no point where he I I can't look at it and say I'm
24:32
absolutely sure of this because he does this magic thing beforehand. I I I
24:38
didn't see anything that looked to me like that. So yeah, that's
24:44
yeah, I I do think it it feels like there needed to be a little bit more there. Although again, it does kind of tie into the Zealot bit
24:50
because when Zealot manipulates them onto our side and and that's straight up, she doesn't convince them. She
24:56
doesn't win their their, you know, she straight up manipulates these poor
25:01
you know, and I felt icky watching it. I'll be up front. Like I helped this
25:08
happen. I feel not good about my choices right now. Um,
25:13
it definitely feels like she's like, "It's a good thing he's dead then, isn't it? And you don't have to obey that oath
25:18
because he's gone." And then later on, of course, he isn't dead. And I think that that was like a segue. Like that
25:24
was a a hint of why it's important, but and we know it's it's in one of the
25:30
raid fights that that you actually have to like you yourself have sworn an oath and you have to break it. You have to
25:36
become an oath breaker to beat the the boss. I believe it's either it's his fight.
25:42
Yeah. And but yeah, I get you what you're saying and I don't disagree with you that it does feel like what about the
25:49
oath you swore to Caresh, but maybe Caresh is in no position to enforce it. Yeah. And that but the thing is like
25:55
this is where I'm talking about like this feels like it should have been longer content. I think
26:01
it feels like it should have been an entire expansion like like like starting off the chapters of this feel like they
26:07
should have been like like like whole content releases on their own like the way we've had you know part one
26:13
part two part three here where the campaign this is the second the second campaign that should have been
26:22
that should have been an entire expansion like it really does feel like there's so much they want to get to that
26:30
They are like it's it almost remember the old the old talk about how expansions were like theme parks
26:37
and how you know sometimes they were like rides on theme parks like you just go in and get this experience. It feels
26:43
like at this point it's like being on a tour of Six Flags where you know the
26:49
person in charge like let's just say your grandma or whoever is absolutely convinced that you only have three hours
26:54
to do all of Six Flags. So you're going to do all of Six Flags. Do you you get
26:59
me here? Like it feels like now we got to do this, now we got to do that. Now we It's like, hey, ho ho, go. Guys,
27:05
guys, guys, do I get a second to digest any of this? Could you maybe go back and explain that
27:11
bit? Nope. We're going to the next part. Okay, that's part of that's part of like and I
27:16
don't want to say criticism of it, but I mean like constructive criticism. It's a criticism. It's not necessarily like I I'm not even saying it's bad. I'm
27:23
just saying for some people this might be a more break neck pace than they're accustomed to.
27:28
And and I think it is a bit break neck of a pace because again it it does feel like a lot of content
27:35
being shoved into a very small amount of time story-wise. And I mean that's just again just me. Uh
27:42
but so then we we wind up going through we and this is before we get to the oathbreaking part. The oathbreaking part
27:47
is actually post raid. Um, well, kind of
27:52
pre- raid and post- raid. Um, so we wind up taking out a bunch of the mana forges
27:59
with the help of the Wastelanders. We wind up causing a whole bunch of destruction. We stop uh we we kill the
28:05
Nexus Prince that stole the uh the dark heart. We take care of a lot of of
28:11
little things in this moment uh that lead up to the king showing up and demanding that the wastelanders follow
28:17
him again, which lead us directly into attacking uh the man forge. Uh and then
28:24
in that in that fact of the mana forge, we're doing a couple things. One, there
28:30
is a soldier creation program that's happening in the raid. Uh and it is essentially uh taking entities which
28:37
gives us a little bit of an idea of the process in which some of these uh voidbound are being turned into
28:44
soldiers, their etherealss that are captured, their essences put into tanks
28:49
uh and essentially void infused until they submit. And we have an entire
28:55
counter based around that. They're being void, sus and trapped into these forms
29:00
with threads from an entity uh a giant moth creature uh that was essentially
29:06
born specifically for this purpose. So very much like the rushy wraps uh it's
29:11
doing the same thing but now with void inside of them. Uh so we learn about that. We don't learn about how the king
29:17
got to this state because one would presume he was among the first or what
29:23
triggered him to or whatever the first ones were to get in a state to start going after the others. But that's what
29:30
we see then. And I'm trying to think of of how
29:35
else to phrase this. We go into the raid. We wind up killing the king. We essentially break that oath
29:43
air quote because we didn't really swear the oath per se. He tries to use his ethereal magic to force us into an oath.
29:50
Uh is the bit that reminds me so much of the helm of domination. It really does. And there seems to be a lot of there's a lot of parallels
29:56
between the helm of domination, what was happening in the mall with what the jailer was doing and what was happening
30:02
inside the mana forge. again content that could have very easily been its own
30:08
like whole thing here for us to explore and experience. Um yeah, when when when you're done, I have
30:14
some stuff to say that kind of ties into that, but I want you to get to finish what you're saying. No, go right ahead.
30:20
Okay. Um first up, some things that I think are mentioned kind of in a drop-own fashion that that don't that
30:28
don't get enough time to breathe. One of the big ones is at one point Venari has
30:33
you doing the EcoDome stuff and Zalat and Venari Venari straight up,
30:39
you know, does not offer Zalat the single slightest bit of respect or deference. She's like, "Look, if you're
30:45
going to be here anyway, go do something." And so you're running around with Zealot and doing stuff. But there's
30:52
a certain point where Zalith says something and I can't
30:57
remember quite what it was but something to Venari and Venari goes I've been to the mall. I know what the void fears
31:08
and it doesn't really come up again
31:13
like nobody goes wait what um should we be going to the mall right now? Uh, I
31:19
know somebody who walks malls. Uh, could could we should we be going over there?
31:25
Is there a is there a visit we should be performing? But there's even a reference to the mall
31:30
walker as well a couple times with the uh the brokers as well. Yeah. Um, and it's just one of those
31:37
things where I'm thinking, okay, this is clearly gonna come up in midnight. But meanwhile, what I I I remember stuff the
31:45
void was freaked out by. Specifically, the last thing I can remember that the void was really freaked out by was
31:51
Sylvanas. Mhm. Cuz remember, the void voices tried to get Yria to kill Sylvanas
32:00
because Sylvanas freaked her freaked the void out. Was now was it because Sylvanas is, you
32:07
know, forsaken, an undead creature? Is it was it because Sylvanas's soul was fragmented, much like Dementius's soul
32:14
was fragmented? So I if if living entities can do that, too, then suddenly Dementius now has
32:21
like things he can't kill. Like there's a lot to it that we don't know anything about. But it definitely interested me
32:31
and would have been something I feel like any sane person would be like, "Uh,
32:37
pardon me. Um, Venari, what you know, could could we could you share
32:44
that information since I I'm pretty sure I'm going to be going into a giant building to fight a void lord. If you
32:51
could tell me the thing the void's afraid of." And it's not that we hadn't seen hints of that before. We absolutely
32:58
see hints of that before in Shadowlands. When the void invades
33:03
uh the Shadowlands, it invades in the Kyrion realm. Mhm. It doesn't go anywhere near the M.
33:13
And that's interesting relating to this whole idea of I know what the void fears. What What does the void fear? So
33:20
that's the first thing. The second thing is we've talked a few times now about this
33:25
talking about how Caresh has a world soul and that world soul appears to be regenerating.
33:31
I think it's not regenerating so much as the same process that's being as you
33:38
bring the void lord dementious in this case
33:43
back to full the world soul is coming back to full
33:50
and what entities have we ever seen that have a void
33:56
light cycle I mean that does that I think that I think that
34:04
the Naru are fragmented world souls
34:10
based on what we're seeing here. And I think that that's why Aloon could wake
34:16
them up like with with like the uh Zera. That's
34:21
why Aloon the tear of Aloon could essentially bring it back from from you know being in in a an inert state.
34:30
Uh because we keep hearing about the ordering of the cosmos in when you first meet Zera and Legion, you hear all about
34:37
the ordering of the cosmos with the Naru were involved in it in some way
34:43
and and I'm thinking a lot. This is all stuff that I want to start hearing about.
34:48
But as you said earlier, and that's one of the reasons that I I felt like I wanted to to address it. This is a This
34:55
is like an expansion of stuff that comes up and you feel like, "Wow, that would be really amazing to explore and then
35:01
you don't really quite get to explore it." And I think again it is part of that
35:06
pacing issue. Um, and I also think it's to a certain degree a part of the fact that the people working on this know
35:13
what the next two expansions are going to be, but we don't. Yeah. And I mean,
35:18
we're we're in a unique position in that regard, too, right? because we have this is the first time ever that they've been
35:25
upfront about the fact that this three expansion cycle might as well just be one expansion essentially. It might as
35:32
well be it's too big for us to do this as one expansion so we're doing it as three. Yeah. So I mean I'm with you there. I'm
35:39
with you. But then we get to the we get to the end of it and of course the uh after
35:47
defeating the raid and defeating Dementius uh again uh there is the
35:52
inevitable uh betrayal of of Zalat which we all know is going to come where she takes the dark heart says she has
35:58
everything she needs and then next thing you know we have the midnight teaser trailer. Um, and then whatever is
36:04
presumably going to happen at the Gamescom, uh, cinematic reveal, uh,
36:10
which happens, uh, as the time of this recording, the very next day. So, we'll
36:16
get to see that. But then we have to go clean up some be a fun Blizzard watch recording. It will definitely be a fun Blizzard
36:21
watch recording. Um, then we have to essentially clean up some of the mess because the wastelanders then now have a
36:29
decision to go and tear down all of the eco, the ecodomes that are being created
36:34
in order to bring life back to Caresh. Uh, this has been Venari's plan since
36:40
the beginning. uh Venari who went to the mall and likely went to the mall to
36:46
learn how works would be my guess uh and is starting to apply that theory to
36:52
reviving a world soul. The ecodomes are these broad spe like little pieces of
36:59
life uh that I I you're bringing living creatures to
37:06
these domes as sort of like a living zoo, but these are living creatures and those living creatures have experiences.
37:12
Those experiences generate. And as near as we can tell, that's part of the whole system that Venari is
37:20
utilizing to try to resurrect Caresh, which I think is fascinating in of
37:25
itself. Yep. which we'll get into that in a second, but you have to go and when
37:30
you're in the EcoDome dungeon, which canonically happens after the raid, uh
37:36
you are essentially fighting against the Wastelanders, stopping them from
37:42
essentially tearing down the EcoDoomes because they are not an affront to Caresh. They're actually the only thing
37:47
that might bring Caresh back to one piece, which I think is absolutely
37:53
fascinating. So, I'll I'll turn it over to Matt and see if he's got some some thoughts on that.
38:00
I think that connects to my idea that we're looking at something not dissimilar to the Naru,
38:09
where you've got the dark and the light as cycles. And I think part of the problem we've got from the beginning is
38:15
that our original view of the void comes not even from the light.
38:20
It comes from the Titans. And from the beginning, we've been
38:25
saying like I think the last couple of expansions have to some degree more or less been about how the Titans are at
38:32
best blinded by their perspective.
38:39
The Titans are like, and I hate to use computer metaphors for things that are not specifically relevant, but I think
38:45
in this case, when I make this terrible metaphor, Joe will come in and and clean it up. So, I'm I'm feeling good about
38:51
it. I think the titans are like are like what an AI is in our real world. It's an
38:58
algorithm that doesn't actually have the ability to make creative decisions.
39:05
It can copy what it's seen. It can make order because it's seen order and that's
39:14
it. And it's only when exposed to other forces essentially would be like getting more
39:20
programming added that it can adjust to a new situation. The relationship between ANR and Aloon comes to mind as a
39:28
situation where one Titan began to experience things outside of
39:33
its own perspective. And by doing that gained the ability to
39:38
understand the situation in a more nuanced way and react to it in a way
39:43
that it it made Amenthul mad because he didn't get it.
39:50
Like literally his his his anger was that this wasn't controllable. This was chaotic.
39:56
And yes, it's chaotic, but chaos is a part of existence.
40:02
Like you can't just be an order maniac when there's multiple cosmic forces that
40:08
create the whole of reality around you. And I think that's one of the reasons why you and I have talked about this
40:14
before about the whole idea that the the final Titan or the last Titan isn't a Titan at all. I think it's because it is
40:21
it will transcend what Titans have been.
40:26
It will not be just one cosmic force and it won't be just one or two cosmic forces. It'll be all of it.
40:32
It'll be everything in one package, which is why it has to be the world soul of Azeroth because Azeroth is the one
40:39
that feels like a big keystone like in this in the middle of this whole thing.
40:44
I think that what we're seeing here is a part of that whole thing. We're also seeing that Argus is going to come back
40:50
or at least could could because for the same reason these things
40:57
don't die. They do not live. They do not die. They are outside the cycle. No one
41:05
ever said that was about the old gods. Yeah. And it could and while the
41:11
forsaken definitely fall into that category as well. Uh I mean nothing says nothing says that
41:18
it can't be the Titans. And for that matter, what if that's what's so scary
41:23
about about Sylvanas is that here she is a mortal being who
41:29
has now somehow not like a she was a piece of a person for a
41:37
while and yet became more in a weird sort of way. What if the
41:44
Titans have always been fragments?
41:50
What if the whole Amanthul was from the beginning he was a world
41:56
soul with a very limited perspective? He wasn't supposed to be a singular world soul. He even felt that. So he went out
42:04
looking for other world souls, but he couldn't he couldn't do right by them
42:09
because he himself was just this raw one perspective being.
42:14
See, and and and I can I can understand where where you would go with that. I don't know that I necessarily agree
42:20
simply because we've seen enough interaction at this point that I think I
42:26
think that they are not necessarily incapable of understanding. I don't I
42:31
don't think they're not incapable either. I think that's the point that they can learn and grow. It's just that
42:37
Amandul was afraid of that. Yeah. Like and and that's the thing with the the a the ANR
42:45
Aloon thing that I think fascinates me the most. You talked about it before.
42:50
What is Aloon? We don't know what Aloon is. Well, you know, who knows if we're going to find out in this expansion, but
42:56
I think the fact that it's called Midnight and the fact that one of Aloon's three main
43:03
aspects is the Night Warrior. I think we're going somewhere where
43:09
something like this could come up. And I do think the fact that Zealot is like, I
43:14
got what I needed and bamps out. I I I keep coming back to that idea.
43:23
This is This feels like an expansion of greatest hits references. Like we've we've we've seen with the the
43:30
Earth and and Dornagal a lot of stuff about the Titans and about the Titans um servants on Azeroth and and
43:39
the whole deal of what's going on now with the Earth. Instead of having like a few diamondy people, almost all the
43:46
Earthn feel like they're now the the new Earthn that are being created feel like they're all kind of like Magny was.
43:52
Mhm. The guys rough now has all these voices. And we see here in the Mono Forge, the
43:59
thing about the the army that gets created, think about what we're looking at when
44:06
we see what's happening in the monoforge. how the the the the effectively the untethered souls, I
44:11
think they're called, of the ethereal people are being put into like vats and
44:17
effectively, you know, void blasted until they just give up, which I think is interesting because they call them untethered, but like
44:24
that's all of the Atherealss. Yeah, but some of the ethereals tether
44:29
themselves. They have the suits. They have the wrappings.
44:34
Wh Why do you need to get them out of that to do this to them? And what does it have to do with
44:41
I'm going back again to Legion. There's a whole bit with um of all people
44:46
Idon where he says, "hm, you seem to have a unique immortal soul like myself."
44:52
Remember that? Yeah. And what is the first thing? What's the
44:58
difference between a wisp or a soul fragment and and an untethered
45:05
ethereal? like what is what is going on here? I I feel like this is just so
45:12
close to being coherent and making sense. I just I I feel like the only reason it
45:19
doesn't is because we haven't quite like we haven't spent the time on on little
45:24
fragments that take feedback in. And I and I think that's part of and I guess we can go into the we only have
45:30
like about 15 minutes left. So, like that's part of my my I guess problem
45:35
with this current uh content. Not that I don't enjoy it,
45:41
but it feels like there's not enough there's not enough time to explore all
45:46
the little intricacies and instead of like this all seems like something that would be
45:53
better served by more subtlety, more nuance, more time. And yes, we're
45:58
probably going to find out more about it. I don't doubt that.
46:04
But the question is when? Is it going to even be in Midnight? Will
46:10
it not be until The Last Titan? Will it even be in The Last Titan? And the
46:15
reason I bring that up is because again, we're talking about the break neck pace. And then the other thing, and and I may
46:22
get flamed for this, and and that's fine. Part of my problem with this
46:27
particular part of the expansion is that it feels like it has twists for the sake
46:33
of twists, not not for serving a greater purpose. Does that make sense? Like Zelda's
46:39
portrayal is not a twist that we always knew. We always knew she was going to anything we do that involves.
46:46
It's a twist, but it's a twist that we knew was going to happen because so it's not a twist functionally,
46:52
but going to Caresh in general is a twist. at least in my opinion this
46:57
early. Uh the stuff with the etherealss and the wastelanders and the oaths is a
47:03
twist for what feels like the sake of just having a twist versus exploring
47:09
what the oaths are and what that magic is. Because like you said, Venari was in
47:15
the mall. You cannot tell me Venari did not at any point in time study
47:23
domination magic. Well, no. And and to the fact here, that's actually very interesting.
47:30
You talked before just now about how Venari you one of the reasons you think she went there was to study.
47:36
Mhm. What is the deal with the Pantheon of
47:42
Death? like they kind of they're like they had prototypes and then they show
47:47
up and they're kind of changed by the places they find themselves in where the winter queen becomes more winter queeny
47:54
as she's inside Ardan wield and so forth. Is that like that's interesting in terms
48:00
of it's like it's not an oath the way we would think of it, but it is binding.
48:07
It is a a change of your nature to fit the place you're in.
48:12
I I keep coming back to the idea of these of the the oaths that we we see
48:18
here as similar to the idea that you know in
48:23
order to take power over a place you must become part of it. You know, the old the old old old idea that you a king
48:30
of a land couldn't be sick, couldn't lose a couldn't be disfigured because
48:35
the land and the king were were together. And if the if the king or queen, whoever was ruling, had a flaw,
48:43
that would be reflected in the land. And I'm looking at what we've got on
48:49
Cares. Caresh is obviously a world that is, you know, on the verge of just disintegration. It's It's even worse
48:55
than Outland. It It is at one point they even say it is a husk, but it bears certain
49:01
similarities to Outland to the point building Well, I would I would go I wouldn't go as far to say it's worse than Outland
49:07
because there's more of it more centrally located to the core of what the planet was. If you look up like
49:13
we're on the fringes of it, but there's still a core planet there. Drraanor is gone. So,
49:18
yeah, but the parts of Drraanor that are left are still alive.
49:24
in a way that in a way that Caresh is not currently. I would argue it's the opposite, but go ahead.
49:29
Let me let me get to where I was going. Um, you talked about how she's bringing living animals
49:36
to Kesh and setting up the ego domes and how that might be part of how to repair
49:41
the planet. I I keep looking at this and going, "Okay, wait a minute. If she's bringing
49:48
them there because they're they're they havema. They're they're living things. because all living things have.
49:54
Is she doing kind of the same thing
50:00
as what happens with like Ardan wield? Like is she she
50:05
funneling the in a in a resurrecting path into the planet's core into the world soul
50:11
itself? And if she's doing that, is she making something like Kalia?
50:18
I I think it's I think it's more than that. And I think it's an observation of
50:23
what the Titans and what the first ones were doing or what the first ones were doing and
50:29
what the Titans copied. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and the Titans again,
50:36
the only Titans that seem to have the capacity to make to have to grow and have changes are the ones who who don't
50:44
just stick to order. the ones who kind of go in into other things like Aonar
50:49
with life with as Sargeras with Fel and we don't we like we've got a lot of
50:56
Titans and Titan forge that can use the light but do we have a light Titan?
51:03
We don't know. Yeah. And that's the thing that I keep wondering about. Um I mean I think we've both argued at one
51:09
point in time that that could have very well been Sargeras. It could have been Sargeras. But here's a question. What? What if all this stuff
51:17
happening is it's a way to basically what we're seeing in Caresh is like the
51:24
same thing that we saw in Azeroth just in a far more desperate and advanced
51:29
stage because Azeroth was put at the center of Titan machinery that fed power
51:36
back into it. That's what I was going to go I was going to say the same thing, right? Like I think there's there's a level of that
51:41
there because I think the idea of feeding back into the planet is something that uh Venari saw either from
51:48
discussions with us or whatever traded information that they have. Uh the interesting thing though to go back to
51:55
what you said earlier about you know you think that Caresh is worse than than Dranra. I think it's actually the
52:02
opposite and I think that part of that reason is because with Drraanor part of the whole story of it even now currently
52:09
and why like thrral came back is it's not sustainable anymore it is dying
52:15
right it never Here's the thing man though was it ever sustainable
52:20
I don't think it ever was always decay oh here's the thing before it became outland
52:27
when it was Draanor was it sustainable A Titan had to come along and create a
52:34
living servant the size of a mountain just to keep the plant life from
52:39
devouring the entire world. Yeah. And that's because because Dranor didn't have a world soul.
52:44
Caresh has a world soul. Azeroth has a world soul. Argus had a world soul.
52:51
But I think that's worlds with world souls are different than worlds without them. They are. And and I think that one of
52:58
the things that you hear in this expansion and in this patch is they say Caresh was once a savage and and and
53:05
dangerous world and we used the Rashi wraps to create, you know, Edens on it.
53:12
And I'm looking at going, so it was a world where the natural forces were in conflict because of what was it? Like
53:19
Azeroth or like Dranor? Drraanor, the natural forces were in
53:25
conflict because one of them was eating all of that and becoming so powerful that it could devour the whole world. On
53:31
Azeroth, everybody was starved. So, everybody was fighting tooth, nail, and claw and elemental force to survive. And
53:39
the reason I think that Dranor is distinct in that way, and I think that
53:45
Caresh and Azeroth are more alike than not, is that Caresh has dragons.
53:53
Well, the void dragons that we see on Caresh are not fundamentally very different.
53:59
I want to make I want to make it a point that we do not have confirmation of where those dragons came from.
54:05
No, we don't. And we don't have any confirmation that those were not stolen or from other worlds.
54:11
Yeah, but what if they are from other worlds but not Azeroth?
54:18
See, seeing dragons when we were previously kind of given the idea that dragons originally evolved from drakes
54:24
and then the titans come along and do stuff to them. What if that means that every world has
54:31
its own elemental entities? See, you pointed out we don't know how
54:37
the oracles on on uh Caresh how they interacted with their world soul without getting, you know, turned into a
54:42
diamond. Like I is that process of getting turned into diamond necessary to
54:50
talk to the world soul? No. And I think I think part of that is and and and I think this is where
54:56
again this is going to be distinctions later. It's it's levels of maturity in the world soul. I think
55:03
I think it's levels of Titan interference. Maybe, maybe. Um, but I think there's I think there's
55:09
a level of it or a layer of it that is yeah, maybe contingent on the actual like Titan interference, which is again
55:17
likely what the last expansion of this trilogy is all going to be about. Uh, and about why that wasn't necessarily
55:23
the best thing for Azeroth, because I'm sure that's that's going to be the story hook. Um, which I would not be
55:29
surprised. We've have we've had inklings of this for years at this point. Um, but
55:36
the reason that I think Caresh and and Drraanor in particular are different,
55:41
Caresh was a savage world that could be tamed, we don't have the full breath of it. We also don't know if that was just
55:46
hyperbole because the people that were telling us this are people that then betray us. Um, the other side of that
55:55
though is it again it has a world soul and Drraanor we know does not. And I
56:03
think that the fact that pieces of the world soul are still there are what's
56:09
allowing Venari to essentially I don't want to say jumpstart it but try to
56:15
resurrect the planet and why things like the EcoDoomes work because there's
56:21
something there. There's a mechanism there that can cycle thea.
56:26
Then here's a question for you. Why were they building ecodomes in the
56:33
mantorm? And were they working? That's the thing. I don't think they were working
56:39
because when you go back go back to the ecodome and go back and look at them, they're not as lush as the ones that
56:45
Venari just set up. But who was setting them up? Venari was
56:51
off in the mall. Did somebody steal her work? What was the point? Were Was Dementius's
56:56
followers doing this? No, we know we know it was the consortium, right? It was the consortium. Yeah, but the consortium
57:03
like a lot of them were misled. Remember that that that even there's people even in the consortium who are misled by the
57:08
king who was pretending to be fighting dementious while secretly working for him. Locust Walker tells us that. But
57:15
now Locus Walker has been lying to us, too. Well, to be fair, Logan Walker has been
57:21
omitting. Yeah, but lying by omission is still a lie. Sure. Yeah. He doesn't say outright false
57:28
things, but he might not tell you something else. Let Let me I don't know how much time we have left. How much
57:33
time we have left? A couple minutes. All right. I'm going to try to break this down really fast. We know that as
57:38
far as we know, the Titans created summoning magic. And the reason that it worked was cuz
57:46
Sargeras and others like him used it to pull entities to him so he could
57:52
imprison them. And the world that we see the uh the demon hunters you you know
57:58
explore uh in Legion is the world that he first used as a prison world to hold
58:05
like everybody. It held dreadlords. It held other demons, the fell ones. It it
58:10
could hold pretty much anything. He could summon people to it and hold them there with death power. We know that
58:18
sounds an awful lot like domination magic. Mhm. We know that domination magic and these
58:25
new oaths seem very similar. We know that void entities can be summoned in
58:32
the same way as fell entities. Does and we don't know what the what the
58:38
limit on that is. Can anything be summoned? And summoning magic does not need your
58:45
permission. It's forced on you. You don't, you know, some entities can resist and say, "I'm
58:52
not coming." But, you know, like when you summon an imp, the imp doesn't get a
58:58
choice. It's just the imp is pulled to you and has to do what you tell it, assuming you
59:03
do the ritual, right? I think that a lot of this stuff, this is underpinnings of what we're seeing
59:10
are the rules of of like I think that is the root of all
59:17
magic as well as all I would I would agree I would agree with that and has rules because is a part of the
59:26
creation and s sustenance of existence. Even void the void has to obey those
59:32
rules. But the thing coming from outside
59:38
doesn't because it is not part of this cosmos.
59:44
I I I feel like what we're seeing on Caresh I think to a degree I'm going to say this again and then I'm going to explain what I mean by it. I think
59:51
Caresh what happened to Caresh is much worse than what happened to Dranor. But I think Dranor died
59:59
because it didn't have a world soul in the first place. Okay. Yeah. that that I can agree with.
1:00:04
And and I think the reason it didn't have a world soul was that the the idea that it just never had one, that's a
1:00:11
Titan thing. That's the Titans going, "Well, it doesn't have a world soul, so it's not important." They didn't stop to
1:00:18
check in and see what what is the possibility here that there's a reason
1:00:23
that the world soul wasn't there? Like, did it get eaten? Did it get used?
1:00:33
Did it leave without destroying the world? Did the world soul get used up?
1:00:41
Or was there just never one? We That's all stuff we don't know. But I do think that Kesh since it has a world soul and
1:00:48
that world soul is still in some kind of existence can come back from worse than
1:00:54
what Dranor got. I think what happened to Azeroth
1:01:00
when Amanul ripped um Shira out of it out of its you know body the wound that
1:01:07
he inflicted would have killed Dranor because there wasn't anything there to
1:01:14
keep the planet alive and since we know is the thing that keeps worlds alive
1:01:22
world souls and we know that world souls devour Well, we also know that world souls
1:01:28
arema. Otherwise, Argus wouldn't have been able to been sent to the mall in the first place. Yeah. And they collect. They They
1:01:35
collect more. It's like they're they're cocooning themselves up, making themselves bigger. Finally, they hit a
1:01:40
critical mass and they are entities of their own. Like Azeroth is not at that point yet. Azeroth is at the nient stage
1:01:47
where it can have dreams and it can, you know, influence stuff around it, but it
1:01:53
isn't really a being yet. it hasn't gotten to that threshold. At least
1:01:58
that's that's how it seems so far. So, yeah, I I feel like a lot of this
1:02:04
it's going in that direction where all these things are going to be tied together, but I feel like at this point
1:02:09
we're sort of bouncing off the walls here. Like we keep, you know, we keep not knowing what what exactly is happening.
1:02:16
Yeah. And and again, I think the greatest tragedy at least of the current current story line is we haven't had enough time to explore Caresh and what
1:02:24
its meaning is to the greater universe. But I think we're going to have to cut it there for now. Uh friends, I do want
1:02:31
to thank you for joining us. Again, Blizzard is made possible due to your generous contributions at patreon.com/blizzardwatch.
1:02:37
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1:03:13
we'll see you next week. [Music]
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