Up next in 10
With the new Lorewalking feature, it has some of us curious about the Lorewalkers. What is their history in the game, and why exactly do they know so much? A listener asked us just that -- somewhat suspiciously. As Matt and Joe discuss the Lorewalkers, it is evident that many are not your average NPC, empowered with longevity, or great memory. The path leads us to the Time Walkers and the dragonflights, and whether any of them can be trusted to tell the truth.
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[Music]
0:08
hello and welcome to Lore Watch round table free form discussion about lur and our favorite media i am your host Joe
0:14
Perez one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch and I've got my marvelous co-host with me today Matt
0:20
Rossy how you doing today Matt insert Spider-Man comment here
0:26
uh actually I got to this one I'm going to talk about real fast because I think you will find it amusing they released a
0:32
bunch of What if novels a while back and I just happened across the one what if
0:37
Wanda Maximoff and Peter Parker were siblings where the Parkers are on a mission in Latvaria they find like a
0:45
weird techno crash where it's it's hinted to be the uh high evolutionaries place and they get one of the babies
0:52
Wanda but the other one they don't get and they take him back and they raise her alongside Peter they're about the
0:57
same age it's really weird it's really really weird it is a very odd coupling i
1:04
don't I don't think Spider-Man and the Scarlet Witch have spent a lot of time around each other in comics i mean
1:10
they've been there for group stuff but not these are not people who've talked often no but the what if comics are
1:17
always a weird mishmash of that sometimes but I think that's why it works but anyway go ahead i was going to say if that's something you want us to
1:22
talk about you can always go ahead and let us know um I do want to say that if you do want us to to talk about anything
1:28
particular you have questions for us or any of our shows we have three of them at this point you can go ahead and send
1:33
those into podcasterwatch.com specify the show that it is for in the subject line as well as any special
1:39
pronunciation of your name you can also hit us on Discord we have the Q and podcast questions channel which is open
1:44
for everybody and we have the patron Q and podcast questions channel which we tend to look there first as a way of
1:50
saying thank you to our Patreon subscribers probably just keep the lights on and you can also send us messages directly on Patreon we're not
1:58
talking about what if today instead we're rounding out our lore walker discussion with well it's been renewed
2:05
interest especially online and we've gotten asked about this a bunch uh and this one actually came from Rob Flanigan
2:12
uh who you may have recognized from the site uh Lore Walker Cho just seems to know too much is he really just a
2:19
Pandarion or some Loa or August celestial of knowledge in history the question is what are the lore walkers in
2:27
general and this has been around since they were first introduced in M of Pandaria we when we meet Lur Walker Cho
2:35
who's the first one we really meet their power seems very incredible right like
2:41
they're able to cut through the Sha influence almost instantly and with very little effort their magic makes things a
2:49
reality or at least a reality that you can experience for yourself so either it's mind altering or perception
2:55
altering in some capacity which we've seen that magic elsewhere but usually not wielded by folks like us and they do
3:03
seem to know a lot and I'm not just saying like the when they were presented like oh they're the the history keepers
3:08
of of Pandaria but they seem to know so much more and when you first meet uh Lor
3:15
Walker Cho he sort of hints that he knows more than just what happens in the confines of the island like I'm not I'm
3:22
not misremembering that right Matt i don't think you are so the question is often asked what are they and I mean
3:30
there's a many many different things they could be but I'm curious in general Matt do you do you have an opinion do
3:37
you have something that you think they are closer to or stuff that they remind you of or do you think that they are
3:43
just a a lore mcguffin um to to start with this I'm going to have to say this
3:50
is all just a theory um everything we say is going to be a theory today really yeah but this one for me is theoretical
3:55
which means I don't I'm not even sure I believe what I'm saying here um usually it's like well I think this could be
4:01
true and it's cool in this case I'm like I think this could be true and it's cool but I'm well aware that there could be
4:06
lots of things I don't know about that could contradict it but I'm going to start with a simple question how old is
4:12
Laura Walker Cho i don't think we know right i do you ever get the sense that Laura Walker Cho has been around for
4:17
things that his lifespan should not have allowed him to be there for well the
4:24
interesting thing is I I did get that impression because I mean what is it the one of the things he says sort of like
4:29
leans that way which is like when he introduces himself I am known as a lore walker a historian for my people as such
4:35
knowledge is my armor and I carry a quill in place of a sword but like that
4:40
seems like his knowledge might have kept him alive for longer than he should have been let me ask you another question do
4:47
you you you and I both played during Wrath of the Lich King right mhm we both
4:53
went to the Storm Peaks mhm we both ran into an immortal torin who was appointed by Noad Dormu and the bronze dragon
5:00
flight to tell stories and se and collect stories after he died trying to do that very thing right
5:07
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah zarentur uh the Eternal I believe you zarantor yeah
5:13
the the ghostly icy blue uh uh I think in game uh they were druid but they're
5:20
they're they have a title and that title is the witness i remember them and uh Zarantor the witness is he is a druid
5:29
apparently um he says he was taught by Sinarius himself mhm which means he was
5:34
a druid before or during the time that Malfurion was coming up because he
5:39
predates the War of the Ancients he's 10,000 years old well yeah he even said
5:45
that right he was like I was one of the first Torren Druids one of the last generation taught by Shando Sinerius
5:50
before the Legion mhm so he isn't the only person with that
5:56
title in game there's Barl Stth of the shifting sands uh Arachonos breathed
6:04
upon him and bound him as a watcher there was Jonathan the revelator uh he
6:11
tells people he was empowered by the timeless one himself and became the keeper of the sacred gong an eternal
6:16
watcher of the bronze flight there's Xarentor which we know was also
6:22
empowered by the bronze flight nos Dharma was himself again um then there's
6:28
Relos the eternal watcher we don't know if she is a watcher of anything we don't
6:34
know if she's related to this guys but she was very much involved in the War of the Shifting Sands and the bronze dragon
6:40
flight definitely seemed to be flying over her positions and and essentially guarding her and that leads me to the
6:47
Time Walkers we know that the time walkers we saw them uh one of the places
6:52
we saw the time walkers was in and on where they were basically poking around
6:58
in time via the timeless aisle and it's through the time walkers and the
7:04
timeless aisle that we ended up with that whole warlords adrenor mess now the lore walkers and the time walkers don't
7:10
seem to be exactly the same group but what if Cho is one of these chosen ones
7:16
who is essentially granted eternal life in order to collect and understand
7:23
stories just like the rest of them all say they are mhm like Zarento specifically says I'm going to see if I
7:30
can find the quote because I I was just looking at this stuff because you told me we were going to do this so there's a
7:36
dialogue he has um the first thing he says when you you quote when you click on him is "Do you have a story for me?"
7:44
And his next thing is "Would you like to hear a story?" And that to me is like when you finally get to the point you
7:49
can ask him questions you're like "Tell me of yourself Xarentor why are you called the witness?" You know I was one
7:56
of the first torn druids of the last generation taught by Shandosinarius before the Legion before the Sundering
8:01
when the world was still young before everything changed now the Sundering
8:06
affected everywhere on Azeroth including Pandaria before the Sundering was
8:12
physically connected to everything else to the point where you could walk from
8:17
up to what's now Northrand and I keep wondering about this can we Zarren says
8:23
at one point "When my brethren hunted great beasts I hunted stories." And he
8:28
says "I was drawn to the Druidic arts by this hunger this lust for knowledge." Does this remind you of anybody so what
8:36
if Lw Walker Cho was chosen not by you know the the ancients or the the August
8:43
celestials because this would have been before there was a difference yeah cuz before the before the world sundered you
8:50
don't there's no difference between say what is now Calumdor or what was
8:57
then Kalumor or the Eastern Kingdom you don't it you could go anywhere the the whole world was essentially reachable
9:03
you could just walk wherever you wanted to go and you'd get there sooner or later i feel like that's a possibility
9:09
for Cho and the reason that the Lore Walkers are distinct is not because they
9:14
were started differently but because they had 10,000 years of isolation yeah
9:20
like you you say that this theory is something that you're not sure you entirely believe but out of all the
9:25
theories that have been proposed this is one that I've actually been thinking about too and you brought up a lot of
9:33
the same stuff that I was actually going to bring up which I love when we're in sync like this uh people have often and
9:40
before I I go back into it like the other theories that people have proposed uh is that you know Cho is a actual
9:48
bronze dragon or that the lore walkers are an offshoot of the bronze flight uh
9:54
or that they're a completely different dragon flight altogether um but a lot of
10:00
that is like because of how he talks with uh his serpent companion and and and items like that but none of that
10:07
really fit for me right it never it never really seemed to be the case cuz
10:14
also when the Dragon is opened up my assumption is had he been a dragon or
10:21
dragon adjacent like that he would have shown up especially because the lore
10:27
walkers do something very similar uh not just to like what you've talked about like the witnesses like Jonathan
10:33
the revelator or Zarathar or Baristo um but they do very similar things sort
10:41
of like the time walkers do they observe history and they kind of keep the story
10:48
going right like time walkers are a little more militant about it and they actually patrol the timeways
10:54
but in a way they sort of are these immortal guardians that sort of guard the lore they guided the the timeline
11:01
because the story the timeline is the story right and I like the idea that the
11:08
lore walkers were actually empowered not necessarily by a titan but by the bronze
11:17
dragon flight by uh why am I blanking on his name now normu himself no oracronos or you know
11:25
any of the higherups yeah and also let's let's for a moment think about the fact
11:30
that doesn't mean that all lore walkers or all time walkers are directly empowered
11:37
no certainly not it means that there are there are ones that are show feels like
11:44
someone who is empowered in a subtle way like when you go with him into like
11:49
during the siege of Orgramar when you the first part where you're going underneath the veil Cho is just he is
11:55
not he's excited he's astonished he is not surprised same thing with Moashon
12:01
Palace and and yes they're going through there as well yeah he just isn't surprised by any of this but he's amazed
12:08
he's like I could never thought I'd get to see one of these you know like like the creation matrix that makes new MOU
12:15
he's like so excited but he's not like shocked he's not like "I can't believe this is here." He's like "Oh good this
12:22
is here." And that's that's something I keep thinking about when I read that Xarentur quote that he hungered for
12:28
stories that feels like Cho it does and I think the difference between the time
12:35
walkers and the lore walkers could come down to the the fact that on the rest of
12:41
Azeroth after the sundering the dragons still had a direct influence mhm so they
12:48
could they could recruit time walkers directly but if Cho was stranded in
12:53
because the emperor created that mist that he couldn't get out and they
12:59
couldn't get in he's basically left on his own he's like "Okay it's just me now
13:05
i I can't get I can't get any outside you know influence i can't reach out to them they can't reach to me so I have to
13:12
decide how I want to do my mandate." And Cho doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who wants to go and fight over Timeways
13:20
that's That's not his deal he wants to learn he doesn't want to fight he's
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certainly not afraid he'll go into incredibly dangerous situations he reminds me a lot of of Braun Bronzebeard
13:33
if Bron Bronzebeard had an actual survival instinct oh yeah but you you raised another interesting point though
13:39
too which I think feeds into this lord Walker Cho is there in a lot of dangerous situations like we going back
13:47
to the the when we're digging up the uh basically the the Mou palace and we're
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going deep underground and we're we fight the three longforgotten kings like their their spirits are back and their
13:59
forces are there lw Walker chose right there like he's not hiding he's not
14:05
cowering he's there but he seems untouchable and the same thing with like why can't I
14:13
remember the the dragon's name elegant elegant the the the celestial dragon
14:18
that's there elgolon elgolon no yeah um Elon maybe it's Elon but either way he's
14:26
there he knows what it is and he's not afraid of it again it's almost like he's
14:32
untouchable and it sort of goes in line with what we're seeing every time we've
14:39
interacted with him and I want to go back to like going back to the first meeting with him he seems immune to the
14:44
Sha and we know that the Sha is born of the old god Yasharaj so he's immune to
14:51
old God essentially which I think is really fascinating because we're not
14:57
gash definitely wasn't and what entities do seem to be immune from the physical
15:05
corruption of an old god not many no but you just made me think of something go for it there's a dragon a black dragon
15:14
onia who learns how to make capes that that give you the ability to
15:19
traverse to Ordos who is obviously an elemental servant and and not a happy
15:26
golucky one who likes things he's an elemental servant of fire which means
15:32
one of the two elemental orders that has the biggest problem with old god corruption he then later figures out how
15:39
to make capes that protect you from old god corruption from going into the the uh the the which is relevant for now
15:45
because they're back the uh the visions the twisted visions and he got that
15:50
information where like he made capes to give us power to to protect ourselves
15:56
and traverse the timeless aisle in Mr later on in I want to say it's battle
16:05
for Azeroth right that's where he does this he he makes cloaks capes to protect
16:10
us directly from old god influence then in Yeah and and then basically this is
16:17
making me think that one of the things Rathon might have been doing there was
16:22
getting bronze dragonfly knowledge and the reason I think that is because he
16:28
eats the heart yeah and the heart is an immortal thing it it
16:33
is the essence of of the god Amanthul and Amanthul is the time one amenthul is
16:41
the is the titan who controls time he is the one that who empowered No Dormu the
16:48
one that the font is made out of his eye that Alisandre is uh protecting and
16:53
using to do time magic mhm and they can rival the bronze dragon flight yep
17:00
so it's quite possible that in Pandora this whole time was a power that could
17:06
do to time what you know we see him do cuz Cho just summons up like practically
17:14
he's like here's the story and boom you are in a slideshow of what's happening but you're in the slideshow and they're
17:21
moving around and it's like what how did how could he possibly know this and it feels like it's a whisper of his his
17:27
power too right like it's it's like you're you're right on there like it's fully visualized and it's not just
17:32
something that he read in a book like it it can't be because he knows too many and sees too many specifics but the
17:39
other interesting thing I think going back into this is like that's a whisper of his power because what we just saw on
17:47
the PTR with lore walking is you are fully there you are fully immersed in
17:54
these moments it's not a play it's not ghostly images flickering across the stage like they are during the
18:01
anniversary event because that's what we saw we saw the Lore Walkers telling stories and them doing that no you are
18:07
fully transported you are fully there and like you fully feel that immersion
18:12
you are in that moment as that person that is incredible magic where where
18:18
else have we seen anything close to that the uh caverns of time where you actually do go there but you Yeah yeah
18:25
and you go there as physically going there yeah yeah who who to say that
18:30
that's not what we're doing like think about it too um when Nos
18:36
Dormu is sending us to try and save Chromy from her infinite dragon flight counterpart we go back to the the Black
18:44
Empire mhm during lore walking when we're looking into the erosions of of
18:49
Zalatath we go back to the dark the Black Empire yeah how could that be a
18:54
thing that he knows existed in that visual media yeah except unless he was there 10,000 years ago you know or you
19:02
know maybe longer and keep in mind too that the the the Pandar were created by the Mou and the
19:07
Mou were creations of the Titans so there's lots of stuff the might have had
19:13
access to once they beat the Mou and they did that before the Sundering their
19:18
uprising against the Mou took place centuries before to the point that when Ashara ascended to the throne of the uh
19:27
of the night elves when she became queen they sent her an empty box mhm with a
19:33
riddle like saying you know this is you know this is what you will have if you you know if you're if you have a hunger
19:38
for power this is this is your reward and it's just an empty box and you know
19:43
she didn't ashara was unafraid to take on the full power of the trolls like her
19:50
people conquered the trolls and split them into two waring factions they
19:55
essentially pushed the Xandelari into like hiding away on their mountain for like eons mhm she didn't even try with
20:05
Cho and or with the the Pandar let's say because we don't know if Cho was there but they didn't even try with the
20:11
Pandaran he got an empty box and they were like "Okay we're going to just let that go." And and I it's interesting cuz
20:16
like I with the way we're laying it out here I think his power is even more I
20:23
don't want to say impressive but I think it's interesting because going back to the the other watchers that you laid out
20:30
um the ones that are the witnesses or the watchers it seems like the bronze dragon flight in particular in Norse
20:36
domu was able to almost like freeze a person in time right like that is their
20:42
version of immortality as far as I'm concerned cuz when the dragon flights
20:47
lost their power and the aspects lost their power Lor Walker Cho didn't rapidly age or anything like the the
20:53
witnesses are still there they're still present so it's not like they were granted immortality in the same way that
20:59
like elves were or something like that although let's be fair um the elves
21:06
didn't lose their mortality because of anything related to what the dragon flights went through they lost their
21:11
mortality because the tree that was the anchor point got destroyed if they're using the technique on the Watchers to
21:18
just literally say "You don't go any further like you don't age anymore you won't you know you don't die this is
21:25
where you are." That means that that would last until they were destroyed which they can't be because of it but
21:32
the tree wasn't keeping that power for itself it was lending the power out to all the night elves so as long as the
21:37
tree was there they had it and the you the the dragon flights were still empowered when the the tree got
21:43
destroyed and the elves were like "Hey c could we have our immortality back?" And they were like "No." So it wasn't it
21:49
wasn't related to that it's it's it was a decision but it wasn't one that you know it didn't the it didn't have
21:55
anything to do with whether or not they still had their power they still had their power but the night els weren't getting any more of it sure and that
22:02
makes me wonder if the reason that the Watchers are this kind of immortal is
22:09
because they are directly interacting with Nos Dormu as individuals or
22:14
directly recipient of his power or bound to him in some capacity right yeah when Anacronos picks one of them and empowers
22:22
him he breathes on him which is very similar to what happened when a life
22:27
dragon breathed on Bolvar 4 dragon froze him in time yeah it didn't freeze him in
22:33
time it froze him in life well yeah it froze him in life but you know what I mean like it Yeah it it it basically
22:39
said you can't truly go away because you are eternally alive whether or not you
22:46
want to be he's the opposite of an undead he's he's unal alive like he
22:51
can't die and it's it's I think each of the dragon flights could do that in their own way like you know that some of
22:59
there are beings that have lived for like centuries empowered by the green dragon flight we've we've met them um
23:06
and we know that there are people who have interacted with you know with the
23:12
the black dragons who've lived for a ridiculously long time so it does make me wonder though if Cho is directly I
23:19
think Cho is like literally the most likely to be directly empowered by Mos Dormu in anything out of yeah and I
23:26
would agree with that and I think I think there's an intention behind it too right like all of the people that were
23:32
chosen as witnesses or or are in that sort of eternal structure they're all
23:38
kind of non-combatants if that makes sense like yeah they're watchers they're witnesses they're viewers yeah but they
23:46
can intervene when they need to they just usually Yeah like Zaren Xarentor
23:51
actually takes takes a fighting role during the the uh the Warsong offensive
23:57
like he's there he doesn't attack the Alliance but if the Alliance attacks him he fights back yeah and and I think it's
24:03
also telling that everybody who's chosen for these roles is raised from mortal
24:10
races and I think that's really really really interesting and they're all
24:16
almost on the bridge of death too have you noticed that yeah so like the ones we know about Zar is literally dying in
24:22
the woods when they find him uh Jonathan he gets breathed on by a bronze dragon
24:27
while fighting well we don't know which bronze dragon which it is uh Baris Baristo uh Anna Kronos finds him dying
24:35
after the war of the or during the war of the shifting sands the last one who we don't know if she is one or not uh we
24:41
know nothing about her life at all like but Ral Shadow um she's if she is one of
24:48
them we don't know if she was dying or not but that doesn't mean she wasn't that just means we don't know but the Oh
24:55
you know the other interesting parallel with that is though is what are watchers where have we heard that before the
25:00
Titans the Titan Watchers yeah and what was their role i mean it was basically to try and sustain Azeroth like they
25:08
were they were put there because the Titans couldn't directly intervene and they needed somebody to be their arms
25:14
and legs because otherwise they'd crush the planet but why were they called watchers and not wardens or tenders yeah
25:20
I don't know that's a good question why was Why were they called that and for that matter why did they try and stay
25:26
out of Azeroth itself yeah like they they built all those devices everything
25:32
like when we go to Mogosan vaults the device that show is so knowledgeable about was a Titan construction
25:39
why did they make all that stuff and then try and sit it out to the point where Tier realized oh no we need
25:45
somebody who will actually get involved in Azeroth you know we need people who will actually come into this world and
25:51
when they made the dragons like at least the ones we know were were empowered by Naz Dormu are watching and collecting
25:59
stories why are they doing that except that if stories are lost what do you you
26:04
don't have knowledge of where you are yeah and I think I think it's also important because I think it ties in
26:09
with a lot of the the the sort of the idea of it right like keeping things in
26:14
a direction or keeping things I'm going to air quote true requires reference points and we've seen this again with
26:22
the bronze dragon flight as the most likely of of places we saw this with the
26:27
caverns of time why are we going to these places we're going to these places to make sure these events occur to stop
26:34
the infinite dragon flight from messing with them to stop them from happening why these have to happen these have to
26:40
happen to maintain the timeline uh we've seen that when you deviate from the
26:45
timeline weird stuff happens right like the whole Warlords of Drraanor thing it
26:51
altered the story it altered what happened it created its own offshoot by
26:58
the simple fact of basically that bronze dragon opening that that sort of pathway
27:03
for Gash and it didn't destabilize the main timeline which I think is
27:08
fascinating but it existed and continues to exist in a paradox
27:15
because it's not gone because we still have the Maggar orcs they're here they're they're present in our world and
27:21
if that timeline was completely erased one would assume that they're they would be gone with it but they're not but I
27:27
think it's the idea of the lore walkers and the watchers and and those is that
27:33
they need to witness the history of what is happening because if you don't we've
27:40
seen what happens with written word like look at the discs are we yeah the original ones got stolen and the copies
27:46
were corrupted as hell and all of we talk about unreliable narrators all of
27:52
the time like we we we can go back to Chronicle and compare Chronicle Les volume 1 through three and then the
27:58
grimoire and the grimoire points out the biggest glaring thing that we've never
28:04
like we may have considered it but it was never really spelled out in official capacity is how can you trust anything
28:11
in these books because history is written by the victor but instead of history being written by the victor
28:17
these watchers see everything they retell it as it is not by the whims of
28:24
whoever came out on top the history isn't erased because it lives with them
28:29
and because they are eternal because they cannot die or
28:35
for lack of a better term removed from that scenario they become the load
28:41
stones they become these touch points of which reality can anchor to like there
28:46
you are there you got to where I was thinking so I'm going to jump off of you here it is also possible we know that
28:53
because because of the original war of the ancients we know that time can be altered without destroying the future if
29:01
you make the proper corrections at the right choke points mhm you because the
29:06
war of the ancients as it originally was written never happened the war of the ancients as far as we're concerned
29:13
happened when uh Nos Dormu was attacked by the old gods and he created a time
29:20
warp and sent back a mortal human mage and a red dragon to the past and they
29:28
acted to create the timeline as we now have it and as a result of that things
29:35
that are things are historical in the Warcraft setting that were not ever written about in the original books they
29:43
literally had those novels retconed the entire story of Azeroth but they kept it
29:48
going down the channel it was supposed to go so there's plasticity there why would you want people to watch because
29:56
that way you know what actually happened and you can't bend it as much the less
30:03
people know about what happened it seems the more variations can occur and I
30:10
think I think uh Worlds Adreno is a really good example of what we're talking about here in that enough things
30:15
weren't really known that well outside of a few people that you could hit a
30:20
timeline that was practically the same like very very similar but certain things are not the same no Gash was born
30:28
because Gash's mother died and so when he comes through and he talks to his father his father feels like I this
30:36
person is very familiar to me he's carrying my axe i don't actually I don't think he had Gorhal at the point but
30:42
like when he picks the axe up and throws it to uh Grom Grom is like "You're too
30:48
familiar with this axe." Grom knows something weird is going on but it's
30:53
it's just different enough that it started throwing off sparks for lack of a better word the timeline started
31:00
getting messed up and I think that's one of the reasons that while that timeline didn't get destroyed the world got
31:06
destroyed you know the the end of the Magghar quest we see like Drraanor getting eaten alive by darkness mhm like
31:14
and and there's a a lot of argument as to who's actually responsible for this is it the light is it the the the fell
31:20
magics from before but we don't know at the end of the time we don't know what's killing the planet we just know that the planet is being killed and I I I keep
31:28
going back to this idea that they want watchers because they want anchors like
31:33
you said the when you use the word anchors that was like that's it that's perfect that's exactly what they want they're trying to to effectively chart
31:40
the course of the timeway to keep it from bending too far out of bounds little things can happen uh a couple
31:48
people get sent back in time and but they they only they only act to get the timeline going in the direction it's
31:54
supposed to go so they're not violating anything even if they are taking action that they would otherwise not take as
32:01
long as their action is to preserve the timeway that's great but how do you preserve it if you don't know what it
32:07
was like that's why Craas had to go craas was there the first time craas in
32:13
fact you meet Craas' younger self Coral Estraas and the two of them can't be
32:20
like they can't be too close to each other or they start dying and I think
32:25
that's really fascinating because it implies why would you make an immortal watcher instead because then you don't
32:30
have to worry about the time person getting dead and not being able to do what you sent him to do the only reason
32:36
Cras gets sent is because Nos Dormu is desperate he doesn't have anybody else to send he's he's barely able to send
32:44
him and Ronin back like I really feel like had he been able to he'd have grabbed somebody like Zarentur because
32:51
they would be able to go back and be immortal and not you know they wouldn't be if Zarentar goes back and he's
32:57
there's 10,000 years old zarentur was there mhm but he wouldn't be affected
33:04
because Xarren the Xarentar walking around effectively already died so he's not drawing any life force from the
33:10
other Xarin but he just didn't have the ability to do it he just couldn't get him he had he had to go with who he had
33:16
that that to me seems like it has something to do with this the idea that there's a there's a a balance to how you
33:23
can monkey with time and if you're not careful you can make it a lot worse but
33:29
you can do you can make changes as long as those changes are in line with the timeway which means you have to map the
33:35
timeway the less that you know the less you can do because you don't know if you're going to make things worse or not
33:40
but if you know what you're doing Yeah and that's why you need people who know things you need people who hunger to
33:46
know things you know you need people who absolutely desperately want to know things yeah and I I mean I think you
33:52
raised a good point there because everyone of every single one of them is hungry they want to know uh they're
33:58
they're there for a reason and I think that makes a a an interesting candidate
34:05
pool right because they will they have the courage to go into these weird
34:12
situations like every single one of them has displayed a massive amount of courage at some point even with like
34:18
Lorac Racho the stuff that we've interacted with even if he doesn't know that he can't die being willing to be in
34:26
confined spaces with large amounts of enemy forces traveling to far distant
34:32
lands uh going into the unknown hell for all we know Lor Walker Chill was
34:37
wandering around the Shadowlands as soon as that door was open and yeah and also there we we do have to point out that
34:43
there are worse things than death yes oh absolutely warcraft cosmology just cuz you can't die doesn't mean it's going to
34:49
be fun being stuck in the Shadowlands you know being torn apart by um for eternity yeah like you know who knows if
34:57
you could harvest from him you know i mean there's a lot of bad things that could happen in the Shadowlands that
35:02
would just never end yeah but I I just find it fascinating because every single one of them is is this insane amount of
35:08
bravery baristolo they fought in the war of the shifting sands the war of the
35:13
shifting sands was not exactly a happy golucky time
35:19
like no and like when Assyrian comes walking out of the freaking ruins and just starts turning people to pulp uh or
35:27
when like you know dragons are getting pulled down by tentacle moss and getting their you know we see their remains you
35:33
know this is this was this was close to Yeah it was a nightmare it was enough to Yeah I was gonna say it was enough to
35:39
drive perfectly sane and stable Night Elves insane fandal Stagghelm watched
35:46
his son be aviscerated in front of him it broke him in ways
35:52
that we cannot even begin to imagine and that's on top of This is a guy who fought against the War of the Saturn
35:59
so he wasn't exactly afraid of things he wasn't you know a coward and and the thesid like and I'm just going to want
36:06
to use this like as like a an example specifically because what poured forth
36:12
from Enouarage was just nightmare fuel it wasn't just the Silath they were
36:18
warped it was old god infestation it was more like just absolute atro at
36:25
atrocious vicious they want to eat you type of things that they were holding
36:31
back and war at the best of times is not exactly going to leave you unscarred so
36:38
for somebody like uh Baristolo going into that scenario willingly shows
36:46
an incredible amount of bravery so becoming a watch or being bound to that
36:51
shows that one they're already willing to take on a burden right they've each
36:57
one of these at least as far as we know and we don't know Loracer Cho's story quite yet um but each of So we can do
37:04
some things but we don't actually I'm going to get there yeah we're going to get there but Bariseloth waged that war
37:11
went into that war willingly fought for something he believed in and showed incredible bravery we can assume that uh
37:18
because of Zerithar doing the exact same thing that Jonathan the Revelator did the same thing uh that he was present at
37:26
some great sacrificial moment uh you know and is now in charge of uh guarding
37:32
the eternal gong lore Walker Cho we can infer probably did the same thing for
37:38
all we know he was present at the uh for lack of a better term as a mortal at the
37:46
liberation of the Pandaran when they go and broke off the shackles of their oppression and fought against
37:52
insurmountable odds against uh you know beings that could warp reality uh that
37:59
could fleshcraft that could wield unimaginable power compared to what they
38:05
had at the time and did so likely willingly at least we can infer this
38:10
this is again all speculation we don't have any confirmation of this and if I
38:16
was Noromu and I come back and I see this person telling the story of the
38:23
battle to maybe young Pandaran I want to know more about that story and when I
38:28
find out the level of bravery the hunger for stories the hunger for keeping alive tradition and memory and making sure
38:36
that generations to come know what actually happened yeah that's a person
38:43
that fits that bill perfectly and it's I I don't know i can't I just can't get over that they like it's it's like a
38:49
common thread it's like this insane amount of bravery that just leads them to be perfect watchers i don't have
38:55
anything further to say about that other than yeah brothers sometimes somebody just has a good idea
39:01
and it sounds like it makes sense but I mean I don't know it and again we don't
39:07
know that all the other lore walkers are empowered like this way it is also
39:13
entirely likely that it is just Lur Walker Cho and I think part of that
39:18
distinction is is interesting because I don't think it's Laura Walker Cho that was doing the stage play during the
39:23
anniversary i could be wrong but I think it was a different lore walk and in then it was the ghostly forms and only the
39:30
ghostly forms and we've seen other lore walkers do this um and I think that
39:36
might be a distinction of the power between them like the others might be mortal and that might be their role um
39:43
but his is just it seems different it seems more powerful it seems more sustained the other thing I think is
39:50
interesting is he always has at least I think it's the red book with him and
39:56
while he has multiple books with him there's if I'm remembering correctly and I could be wrong because it's been a
40:02
while and I haven't gone through the content to to individually confirm this but he always had like one particular
40:08
book with him and it reminded me of the
40:13
uh I forgot what they were called they were like the chrono absorbers or whatever that we see in dragon flight
40:20
around uh uh Thalasus like if you go around and you actually see like the little crystals that you
40:28
essentially absorb the time magic back into to put things back to where they
40:34
need to be but are also present at every portal that opens up to different uh areas of the different timeways it feels
40:41
kind of like that or his scrolls feel kind of like that where they might be serving some of the same function and I
40:47
don't know if that's something I don't know if you have a feeling or any thoughts about that i think um ultimately I feel like the uh lore
40:55
walkers among other things that they are and that they do they are genre savvy
41:00
like there's a panderin you find in the veil of eternal blossoms uh whose name is Loki Loh-Ki
41:08
and he tells the origins of Leysen's death uh he tells the the origins of
41:14
Alani the cloud serpent and I find myself thinking let's say you're L
41:20
walker Cho and you are empowered by Nos Dormu mhm but then you're cut off for whatever reason let's say the sundering
41:27
happens you're cut off you can't reach uh Nos Dormu anymore you you're unable
41:32
to reach outside of the of the mists that were created by the emperor
41:38
what do you do like we're told that the the cloud serpents are not related to
41:43
the aspects they're not related to the dragon flights well then what are they where did they come from we're told that
41:50
they were there for thousands of years right we are and they definitely seem to have the ability to uh align with
41:57
elements we also see that the jade serpent is it's a an aspect it's a it's
42:04
a an alga celestial it's not an aspect like the as the dragons are but it is a
42:09
powerful wild god so I started thinking about like you make a deal you go maybe
42:14
not to the jade serpent maybe you go to some other uh powerful clouds serpent/ August celestial but you go and you say
42:21
"Hey uh I I need help." Cuz I think it's really interesting that the the one of
42:27
the things one of the stories we're told about is how the jade the jade serpent's
42:32
offspring fought the Xandelari when the Xandelari came after the fall
42:38
of the Mou the first time and they helped fight him off like there's a there's a famous piece of art of a
42:44
pandarin riding a cloud surface wow i just remembered something sorry go ahead no go go go for it i want to see what
42:50
you got because I want to see if you you're going where I Oh man no just I'm just remembering like you remember you Loki you like telling this the origin
42:57
story of Alani right like the Stormborn the one that's like rolling around the veil of eternal blossoms the description
43:05
of that birth is just lightning striking the pool of water in the center of the
43:11
veil of eternal blossoms that we are assuming is Titan blood or at least
43:17
Titan blood adjacent well I mean we know that the the veil of eternal blossoms the waters were changed
43:24
by the extracted essence of Amanthol yeah the Titan who controls time so what
43:32
if Alani and the other cloud serpents were created by say Lorracho with help
43:40
from the the Jade Serpent because the Jade Serpent would be a wild god that he could turn to and that bolt of lightning
43:48
hitting the wall the well is literally him doing time magic to change some
43:55
other animal into a cloud serpent pushing it further along its its evolutionary path and that would explain
44:01
why they need to be hatched from eggs why they still like they live normal mortal lives despite the fact that we
44:07
see that they can attain ridiculous amounts of cosmic power because Alani is like is literally like a thunderstorm
44:13
showing up and the only ones like her are similar to her when you go to the
44:19
Thunder King's uh island he's got one and how did he get one unless he too
44:26
used the same Titan knowledge that we know they had because he got the heart of Roden and Roden was the one who
44:33
pulled Amanthul's essence out of himself in the first place it also should be pointed out that there's some credence
44:38
to this at least as far as I'm concerned because in the uh time walking scenarios
44:46
how do you get around how do you go from point A to point B in the different chapters of the stories you ride on the
44:52
back of Mishi the cloud serpent companion of Lore Walker Cho who physically carries you to different
44:59
different essences of time essentially to experience these moments and if you've been in a time walking dungeon
45:05
you've ridden around on a dragon's back several times mhm and the dragon was a
45:11
bronze dragon obviously yeah there's there's something here there's there's definitely a link there and you might
45:16
you might be on to whether it's yeah it might not be that no Dormu directly empowered them it might be as simple as
45:22
Cho you know a young Cho while fighting during the Pandora rebellion fell into
45:28
the well of like the water at the at the heart of the veil the the veil of eternal blossoms and came out
45:35
essentially like saved by from death by the power of Amenthul mhm in the same way maybe he wasn't directly empowered
45:42
by Nos Dermu and that's why his war walkers aren't the same as the time walkers because he never got a chance to
45:49
be guided by an aspect maybe the jade serpent was the only one around who
45:55
could even give him like a clue on it because since she's a reincarnating being she essentially understands the
46:02
veil and its purpose you know we don't know but we do know that there's enough there to to make it definitely make it
46:08
feel like there's some connection in much the same way that when we went in Legion and we we went to uh Queen
46:15
Ellisan she's got abil the abilities that she can rival Nos Dormeru servants
46:20
with because she's got the artifact from Amen so yeah it it it feels to me like it is there's definitely a connection
46:27
there's some sort of similarity here whether it's as direct as norm showed up and said you live although it would be
46:32
hilarious to me if No Dormu and the other dragons had a visage that looked like a cloud serpent like when they got
46:40
there they saw the cloud serpents were like "Okay that's we'll look like that here that way they'll they'll come
46:46
they'll they'll just do what we tell them because they'll think we're those things." Yeah there's Yeah I think that's all I got yeah no I mean but I
46:51
think I think it's interesting too that now Lore Walker Cho is walking along the
46:58
Alliance and the Horde he gets to get their stories yeah he's getting their
47:04
stories and I think that becomes increasingly important as sort of like
47:10
the story of the expansions moves forward because again we we go back to
47:16
the thing we talked about anchor points of reality where knowing the stories and knowing what happens is necessary and we
47:25
talked about time altering and how things can sometimes get skewed or even
47:31
going further how we have altered time by directly interfering or indirectly
47:37
interfering maybe by going back to the black empire and showing N'oth that his death was imminent um I mean we went to
47:44
Stratholm and essentially fought like alongside Arthus Menithl yeah you know
47:51
the the infinite dragon fleet were doing stuff and we went back and and stopped them but Arthus still saw it you know
47:57
even if he didn't stop to think very hard about it he still knew it was happening you know he's like "Oh yeah
48:03
Malganis is up to something." It's like "Dude they're dragon things but he never even like I I don't know it's It's one
48:10
of those things that every so often I wonder about with Arthus." Like is he was he kind of nutty by the end like thinking you know time travel's
48:16
happening whatever i don't have time for this yeah i I don't know but it to see it seems like there's more it's not an
48:24
accident that Lur Walker Cho is coming back and and telling the stories that he is now it's not an accident that time
48:30
walking is a thing and it's not just to refresh people on the story again we've
48:37
talked about this in the previous episodes where it's filling in blanks
48:42
and propelling the story forward in all of the cases maybe not necessarily the
48:50
way that you would assume when you're going through them because a lot of players will make the assumption that
48:55
they know what happened but Cho is filling in blanks that he shouldn't know
49:02
or are really interesting especially the first three ones yeah absolutely the
49:07
first three ones why is he so informed on this yeah where did that information come from and again like the calm nature
49:16
of how it's presented it isn't a I bartered for this it's never that I
49:22
don't want to say that distinct it's never that obtuse it's this is fact this
49:28
is what happened this is the connections trust the word of one who knows i know
49:35
this this isn't me i'm not supposing i'm not speculating i'm not Rossy and and
49:40
Perez over there i know this and there's another aspect of it and and again mild spoilers we're at the end of the episode
49:45
so you can come back in like a minute here if this is you pointed this out when we were talking about it even he
49:51
didn't understand the connection between Venari and uh Locust Walker in the
49:58
memory he goes "Oh like his magic is showing us this
50:05
and he doesn't know what's happening." Yeah so how is that even possible how is
50:11
he capable of showing us things he himself doesn't know that is actually a really good point like that is that is a
50:18
fascinating thing that I Oh man Lor Walker Cho is one of my favorite characters simply because of the
50:24
infinite potential that they they contain but like yeah like how does that occur or is is Lor Walker Cho hamming it
50:31
up for us does Lor Walker Cho know more than they let on but it's not the right
50:37
How is that possible but it's not time for us to know yet right yeah or he
50:42
wants us to think about it because if he just tells us Yeah yeah go ahead no I I
50:48
think we were both to say the exact same thing if it's one of those things that they actually say in a Diablo game um
50:54
Acarett is we're chasing down Aaret's tomb and you you know you ask him "How
51:01
come you didn't just tell us it was here?" And he goes "If I had just told you it was here and you got here you
51:07
wouldn't have gotten here." like you had to find it to be worthy to get to get to it like if if we just get told
51:14
everything you know some things you can tell us but some things we have to experience and some things we have to
51:19
understand the experience like it's not enough that we experience it we have to
51:25
get what we're seeing and that you can't you can't teach that you have to let
51:30
people make their own mistakes fall do things make choices this has to be
51:37
learned but it also has to be earned yeah and I think there's also an element too of it where and and there's a
51:43
concept in parallel with what happens with Anduin in the war within where you
51:49
you are not necessarily in the right place to know the truth uh or to
51:56
understand in that moment and and it's not yours to have until you are actually
52:02
ready you're might not be in the best mental space or like a lot of times
52:08
let's say we're coming right off the heels of hunting Zalot and we just had a
52:13
moment uh where going back to the beginning of the expansion we see
52:19
Khadgar get sucked into the dark heart do you think we give a damn about
52:24
Zelass's past at all at that point no but now where things are getting more
52:30
complicated and Kagar's back and we have more information
52:36
not enough not the whole picture but more than we did at the beginning and we're starting to understand that there
52:41
is a more complex battle or give and take happening in the background that's
52:48
sort of the perfect time to do that and I don't think that's an accident i think
52:54
I think Lur Walker Cho is again that anchor point for reality it he makes the
53:01
story available to us when we need it when it is important when it is the most
53:10
impactful and maybe like the the time the time walkers themselves
53:17
like the folks that go through the timeways and are stewards and wardens of it this is the lore walker way of
53:24
keeping reality on point by choosing when the stories are retold for maximum
53:31
impact or to make sure that the information is delineated at the right moment to keep us from making a decision
53:37
that skews the timeline so bad that direct intervention is necessary those
53:44
again like you said earlier those subtle nudges the subtle corrections the little
53:49
tiny adjustments instead of the huge swinging I'm going to rip this pocket of reality off and throw it into the void
53:56
maybe there's an element of there that too well I mean we talked a lot is there any parting thoughts about Laura Walker
54:03
Cho the lore walkers that you would like to impart to our wonderful listeners if
54:08
nothing else Cho is brilliant at getting people to blunder into situations that
54:14
require them like every time that I've gone with Cho someplace I ended up fighting all sorts of things because it
54:21
had to be fought and yeah he's just I off obviously feel he must know what
54:27
he's doing yeah he has to even if he acts like he doesn't it feels like he must because otherwise he's just the
54:34
luckiest sob in the existence of the universe so either he's blessed by luck
54:39
or or he's doing this on purpose i mean and he could just be the luckiest the luckiest pandaran in the world but I
54:45
don't think so i I there's the old saying it's better to be lucky than good i don't think it that's the case with
54:51
Lucker Cho i think it's better to be good than lucky in his case but I think you make your own luck you make your own
54:57
luck but I think that's going to do it for us today on this episode i do want to thank you for joining us on this
55:02
weird wild and wacky and uh insight into what we think Lur Walker show is and Rob
55:08
hopefully that helps you or hopefully it has more questions spawn in your brain
55:13
because then you get to live like we do uh do want to remind you friends that if you have questions for this or any of
55:19
our podcasts or a topic you want us to cover go ahead and send those in to podcastardwatch.com
55:24
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55:30
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55:37
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55:43
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55:50
all the rest of our shows uh with that folks we'll see you next week
55:56
[Music]