Up next in 10
The Loa of death Bwonsamdi is the first topic in this week's Lore Watch Podcast. Bwonsamdi was everywhere in Battle for Azeroth, even being a major driver of events in that expansion. But now that we have a whole Troll area packed with Loa in Midnight, he hasn't joined the party yet. Why? He seems like a party kind of guy. And where is he, if he isn't here, and what is he up to?
Then, we move on to the second of two listener-submitted questions. The second part of the show concerns the Tree of Whispers from Diablo 4, and the lore fallout from the events of the most recent expansion. I don't want to say exactly what all happened with the Tree of Whispers, because spoilers, so if you're diving in this far, be warned. The Loremasters go from the events from the base game, all the way into the nature of Mephisto and his offspring.
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Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:11
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:14
table free form discussion about lore in
0:15
your favorite media. I am your host Joe
0:17
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:19
from Blizzard Watch. And I've got two
0:21
marvelous co-hosts with me today. Uh
0:23
first, he is not quite a Godzilla, but
0:26
he can be if you really stretch your
0:28
imagination. Matt Rossy, how you doing
0:29
today, Matt?
0:30
>> Decard Kane is still alive because he
0:32
used his arts to reforge the sword of
0:35
justice in Diablo III, but he didn't
0:38
have a cube, so he had to use himself.
0:40
And that's why he's still alive, cuz
0:42
he's actually in the sword.
0:43
>> Okay. And he's definitely not a sword,
0:46
or at least I think he's not a sword.
0:48
Eric Oday, how you doing, Eric?
0:50
>> Ah, I'm okay, Joe. It seems like
0:51
Godzilla is celebrating midsummer by
0:54
breathing on my part of the world
0:56
because it's going to be like 103
0:58
Fahrenheit uh this week. So, um that's
1:01
that's what I'm looking forward to.
1:02
>> Where?
1:03
>> Over in Boston.
1:05
>> I Oh, well, I wasn't going to go to
1:06
Boston anyway.
1:08
>> Never again. But
1:09
>> yeah, I think there's a heat wave that's
1:11
hitting the uh the nation right now.
1:13
We're looking at uh high 80s Fahrenheit
1:16
here on our little neck of the woods in
1:19
Buffalo. We'll see. Hopefully, we won't
1:21
melt. But, uh, instead of talking about
1:23
melting, there might be some lore
1:25
melting in here. We'll we will figure
1:27
we'll find out as we go along. Uh, but
1:29
we're going to be answering some
1:30
questions from you, our wonderful
1:31
listeners. Uh, again, if you have
1:33
questions for this or any of our
1:35
podcast, be sure to send those in to
1:37
podcast at blizzardwatch.com. We ask
1:39
that you specify the show that it is for
1:41
in the subject line as well as any
1:42
special pronunciation of your name. Uh,
1:44
if you don't want to up on email, you
1:46
can do so in Discord. Uh we have the
1:49
patron Q and podcast questions channel
1:50
open to everybody. Same rules apply. Uh
1:53
and then we also have the patron Q and
1:56
podcast questions channel. Uh which is
1:58
set aside for our Patreon subscribers as
2:00
a way of saying thank you for helping us
2:02
keep the lights on. First up, we've got
2:04
a couple questions from our friend
2:06
Stouts. Uh so one we uh it's a question
2:12
about Bomdi. Um, and it's I didn't play
2:14
through the troll area, so I was
2:16
surprised to see a dungeon with death
2:17
and spirit things and no tie to our
2:19
buddy Bam Somdi. And then specifically
2:21
calling me out here, Joe, what's up
2:23
here? Um, so Bomb Zombie is kind of busy
2:26
with other things. And I think that's
2:28
sort of the real big crux of it. And
2:31
also, while Bombdi is a very powerful
2:33
Loa, he isn't omniresent. And Loa are
2:38
very powerful beings, they're not omn
2:40
omnipresent gods. uh close in some cases
2:44
depending on how much power they have.
2:46
Uh but they can't be everywhere. We've
2:47
also seen that where uh he had his own
2:50
temple of death uh but he also wasn't at
2:52
other temples of death. It's just kind
2:55
of a thing. He kind of goes where he
2:56
wants to and doesn't necessarily he's
2:59
not going to be everywhere. Um I have
3:02
more thoughts on it, but I'll turn it
3:03
over to you guys first. So what do you
3:05
think that there's a reason Bam Somdi
3:06
has forsaken us in in this part of the
3:08
troll expansions?
3:09
>> Uh it's the Ammani. Uh the Ammani and
3:12
the Gorbashi had their own Loa. They
3:15
didn't have the same Loa as the
3:17
Xandelar. Bonandi is primarily a
3:20
Xandelar Loa. So no, I wouldn't I wasn't
3:23
expecting to see him. I mean, look at
3:25
like Misala wasn't even woripped in the
3:27
in in Zularok and that's where he's
3:29
known from. So yeah. No, it's it's not
3:33
to me it's not that surprising that
3:37
considering
3:39
some Lowa seem to be like they some Loa
3:42
seem to be more universal amongst all
3:46
all the troll peoples but a lot of them
3:49
seem to be individual to specific groups
3:52
like you don't find temples to Hakkar
3:54
anywhere except Zulrub and even the
3:57
Grobashi didn't worship him until very
4:00
late. They were kind of like forced into
4:03
it. So, yeah. No. Um I don't I'm not I'm
4:06
not surprised Guanomdi wasn't
4:08
represented in an Ammani place.
4:10
>> I'm on board with all of that. I um they
4:15
have they have Janalai or however you
4:18
say it. It's a it's a is it serpent
4:20
hawk? The the law of fire, magic, birth,
4:23
death, rebirth. It's it's busy. That's a
4:25
lot of categories, but dragonhawk. Yeah.
4:27
But but death is there. like they have
4:29
they have a death, rebirth, birth thing
4:32
going on already. So like yeah, the lowa
4:34
it's not like you can be the low you can
4:36
be a loa of something but you don't
4:39
necessarily get to be the lowa of
4:41
something unless you you know pick
4:43
something really niche or like destroy
4:46
the other loas I guess. Um, I think
4:49
Bansomdi gets a possible mention.
4:52
There's a quest giver that mentions, oh,
4:54
a certain someone wouldn't like what the
4:55
vile branch are doing here, which, you
4:58
know, could be a lot of things, but I
4:59
kind of like to think that Wanomi isn't
5:02
omni potent and knows everything that's
5:06
going on, but he's kind of like aware of
5:08
the situation that's going on. Like
5:10
major, he's kind of got major world
5:12
events up on like an iPad in the corner
5:13
while he's doing whatever he's doing.
5:15
He's he if he got out of hand, he'd
5:17
probably show up, but um to be like
5:20
shocked that he wasn't there. No, not
5:22
shocked.
5:24
>> I think you guys um I don't know about
5:26
you, Eric, I know that Joe plays both
5:28
Horde and Alliance, but you play Horde
5:30
more often. Um would you like do you
5:32
remember uh there's a disciple of Janali
5:36
in Zullon and Talon? I mean, the which
5:39
is the Ammani trib's enclave in Zelda.
5:42
So the Ammani actually even have
5:45
representatives with who serve their
5:47
gods, their Loa, and they send them to
5:50
Zelda as enclaves. So it's not
5:53
surprising they have their own
5:55
preference. They they they don't share
5:57
all their their gods across everything.
5:59
Well, I think it's also I think that's
6:01
also really like another thing to keep
6:03
in mind too about the trolls is that
6:04
they don't have a it's not a centralized
6:07
religion, right? It doesn't have an
6:09
overarching pantheon for everybody. It's
6:12
not like
6:13
>> on Zeldra, like in Zeldra, you have the
6:15
Drakari have their own as well.
6:17
>> Mhm.
6:18
>> And they're completely different as
6:20
well.
6:20
>> Yeah. And I think that I think that
6:21
plays into it quite a bit as well. And
6:23
we know, and we're not going to talk
6:25
about it now because we haven't quite
6:26
gotten there yet. There is going to be a
6:28
lot more about kind of this in patch
6:32
12.1
6:34
uh with Atal atal UT. Um, and there's a
6:38
whole bunch of stuff around that that
6:40
that sort of tangentially ties into
6:42
this. Um, but again, it goes back to
6:46
that that Lowa is a it has always been a
6:49
very personal relationship with the
6:52
tribes and and the the different sects
6:56
that uh worship them or accept them as
6:59
sort of their patron, right? And we see
7:02
that even among the Ammani when we're
7:04
there. Not all of the Ammani, they
7:07
acknowledge the other Loa, but they
7:08
don't worship the other Loa. Uh there
7:11
are tribes that are completely devoted
7:14
to specific Loa. Um which I think is
7:18
also very interesting and and sort of
7:21
something to be I guess keep in mind I
7:24
guess would be the best way to put it.
7:25
Other thoughts? I'd also say that maybe
7:29
he he typically will kind of show up out
7:31
of nowhere and be like, "You did exactly
7:33
what I thought you were going to do and
7:35
I've been watching and now I'm here to
7:37
make my move." So, I mean, maybe he is
7:40
keeping an eye on the situation out of
7:41
the corner of his eye and we'll see him
7:43
next patch or the patch after or
7:45
something, but how many times have we
7:47
heard that Bonomdi or someone just like
7:50
Bonsomdi was working behind the scenes
7:52
to influence the stuff that we're doing
7:54
and we never heard of it in any way? So
7:57
maybe
7:58
>> yeah, I was going to say um I think it's
8:00
also worth noting that since Banzomi
8:02
made that deal with uh Rostakon and then
8:06
is became essentially the the premier uh
8:10
LOA for the Xandelar. there's a
8:13
political association there that would
8:15
make it less likely for the Ammani who
8:18
have always been no, you know,
8:20
notoriously independent-minded and don't
8:23
want the Xandelar trying to tell them
8:25
what to do. They wouldn't be as likely
8:27
to accept him just because he's a he's
8:29
effectively a state lowa. He's one of
8:31
the most important lowa in the Xandelari
8:34
uh you know, for lack of a better word,
8:36
pantheon right now. He he's he's got
8:38
pride of place and that would make him
8:41
simultaneously he'd have a much more
8:43
stable, you know, body of of worshippers
8:46
and associates, but he also doesn't
8:48
necessarily have tribes that don't want
8:51
to be seen as subservient to the
8:53
Xandelar are not going to be as likely
8:55
to talk to him, especially if like in
8:57
the case of the the Ammani, they've got
8:59
Janeli. They've got a a readymade, you
9:02
know, their own one. They don't have to
9:04
talk to him. So I I think that's
9:06
something to consider that in a way by
9:08
doing what he did has made himself less
9:12
universal but given himself more
9:15
effectively more prestige.
9:17
>> Yeah. And and interesting like there's
9:18
there is some crossover between some of
9:21
the the troll tribes as well just by
9:23
going over some of the the low and who
9:25
worships them.
9:26
>> Yeah. Like Shadra
9:27
>> or or
9:29
>> Yeah.
9:30
>> Right. Uh Johnai is also worshiped by
9:32
the Xandelari and the like and the
9:34
Ammani, not just um Johnny uh our little
9:38
wonderful god of trash. Uh Xandelari
9:41
Dark Spear. Uh the Dark Spear is
9:44
Xandelari and Ammani all recognize
9:46
Hyreek. Um like there's there's a lot of
9:50
crossover, but there are some that are
9:52
just very very very specific to like one
9:55
group. Like Razison is a really good
9:58
example. Rison is only the Xander like
10:01
only Xandelari. Um that was their uh you
10:06
know Loa of Kings that was their thing.
10:09
Uh Torcali uh the giant turtle uh the
10:13
wandering bull work that was being
10:15
resurrected at the end of BFA. Xandelari
10:17
only um Toga another turtle. Uh you know
10:22
Xandelarian and Torlen of all things.
10:25
like there are these these very like
10:27
spec specific ones that like uh one
10:32
individual will do and it seems like
10:33
it's mostly the Ammani. Uh you have Pac
10:35
Loa of the depths, you have Kohli, Loa
10:38
of Medicine, um Pool Loa of Peril, the
10:41
giant shark if you remember that.
10:43
There's a whole quest line around that.
10:44
Um tend to be Ammani only. But then
10:47
there's other ones that you know are
10:49
worshiped by the Ammanian uh also
10:51
everywhere else. Like we just did the
10:53
Shadra stuff, right? There's a whole
10:54
quest line uh about Althron Noadra, the
10:58
the low of spiders, right? The low of
11:01
spiders is just about everywhere. And
11:04
almost all of the trolls out there
11:05
worship uh Shadra at some point, but
11:08
like Dun done the law of abundance.
11:10
That's an Ammani only thing. So, it's
11:13
it's interesting. And Bamdi is sort of
11:16
kind of I don't want to say stuck being
11:19
his own thing because he's not because
11:22
what is it? the dark spear, shatter
11:24
spear, the gurabashi, the wither branch,
11:27
which we know about, the moss flares,
11:29
the drakari, the ice tusk, uh the
11:32
xandelari, the farake, and the sand
11:35
sculp are all notable worshippers of
11:37
Guam Samdi. But like they pointed out,
11:39
it's not necessarily that he's going to
11:41
show up uh in the Ammani lands. That
11:44
said, if the Ammani start to I don't
11:47
want to say mend fences, but we talked
11:49
about this a while ago when we talked
11:51
about trolls and and sort of like the
11:52
the history of like that region and
11:55
um if there is a moment or point where
12:00
you have like why can't I remember her
12:03
name? The the queen of the Zandelari.
12:05
>> Zul John.
12:07
>> Oh no. Um um the Zandelari um Princess
12:10
Taljani.
12:11
>> Yes, Taljani. Thank you. if Teljani
12:14
comes on a like a mission on behalf of
12:16
the to like introduce the or meet
12:19
the other trolls. Uh because again,
12:21
Zuljan um you know, she's she's not a
12:25
warlord like the other ones were. She
12:28
wants her people to be safe. She's
12:29
willing to defend her people. Uh but I
12:32
think she might be more open to having
12:33
conversations with the other tribes and
12:36
the other people of trolls versus that
12:39
division that was there before. And
12:41
obviously Tani I think is very I don't
12:44
want to say very open to it but she's a
12:45
lot more open to it now too especially
12:47
after she joined the horde. Um
12:50
especially as she sits on the council
12:52
and everything that happened with her
12:54
and the dark sphere and everything else.
12:56
Like there could be a thing where there
12:58
is some cross cultural exchange cuz
13:02
maybe it's the Ammani don't know about
13:04
these other Loa because again they're so
13:05
hyper specific if that makes. Yeah, I
13:08
like the idea of it's almost like
13:09
reverse Pokemon. Like the Loa are not
13:13
all powerful and everpresent. They don't
13:15
all live together at the top of a
13:16
mountain. It's they're like powerful but
13:19
limited and they're entities. They are
13:22
exist in the physical world. They move
13:24
around. They, you know, have a lot of
13:27
magical powers, but the what, if you
13:30
worship one, then they'll come to your
13:32
aid. And if you pick a pantheon of them,
13:34
then that's your lowas and they will
13:37
favor you and and things like that. And
13:38
then when trolls from different parts of
13:40
Azeroth run into each other, they kind
13:42
of like, "Which ones do you have?" "Oh,
13:43
yeah, I have a Jean lie." Yep, I do
13:45
that. Um, no, I haven't heard of that
13:47
one. That one sounds interesting. We
13:48
don't have Aloa for that. Maybe Dun Dun
13:51
and he shouts stuff at you. Oh, that
13:53
that sounds kind of cool. Um, Shadra,
13:55
yep, we've all got Shadra. Shadra's like
13:57
Pidgey. I I could kind of see that.
14:00
>> Yeah, time will tell. Uh the expansion
14:02
is still in its opening acts. Uh so
14:05
there is still time for the troll story
14:07
to evolve. And we do know again that
14:10
patch 12.1 will be very troll specific
14:14
uh with a whole troll dungeon and raids
14:18
um and a whole bunch of stuff along with
14:20
their world boss. Uh and a whole zone
14:23
specific type story uh that is going to
14:26
tell you a little bit more about maybe
14:28
some longforgotten worship. uh of of
14:31
Loas or maybe things that aren't quite
14:34
Loa. Uh but we'll see as that goes on.
14:37
Uh this next question comes from Deb aka
14:40
Bellatrixie.
14:41
Uh what's the deal with the Tree of
14:43
Whisperers? We burned it down. Now what?
14:46
It's still giving quests. What's the
14:48
lore fallout of burning it down? Also,
14:51
what are the chances we get more
14:52
Wraithma? More Wrathma would be awesome.
14:54
Matt, do you have opinions about the
14:56
Tree of Whisper? I have a lot of
14:57
opinions with Trio Whispers and some of
14:58
them go back to that long-standing
15:00
discussion going all the way back to
15:02
when Diablo 4 first came out as to
15:04
whether or not um how isar is part of
15:10
Sanctuary like like are the is the swamp
15:13
actually part of Sanctuary? They they
15:15
there's a whole discussion about it. The
15:18
thing that came to me is when you're
15:19
first trying to get to the tree of
15:20
whispers, there's the giant serpent that
15:23
you see. you you actually have to chase
15:26
this thing. And keep in mind, you've
15:27
you've taken some extremely powerful and
15:30
not recommended, you know, drugs at this
15:33
point just to get a vision quest to see
15:35
it. But later on, you know, actually
15:38
even before you see that that serpent
15:40
when Rathma and we're going I'm tying
15:42
Rathma in now. This is all connected.
15:44
Uh, Rathma even says when you see his
15:47
recorded soul whatevers, he even says,
15:50
you know, I took the pieces to the
15:52
serpent and when you go to Scoos, which
15:56
as as we discovered throughout uh the
15:59
most recent expansion, Lord of
16:00
Destruction, Sco is essentially the
16:02
birthplace of humanity on Sanctuary. And
16:05
it's also the place where the first
16:07
Nephilim were created uh in the pools of
16:09
creation. uh whatever the pools of
16:12
creation are uh and we don't get a exact
16:16
answer on that. We we we don't get like
16:18
what is this place other than it's the
16:20
pools of creation like okay why are they
16:22
here you know they they apparently were
16:26
created by Lilith and Denarius in order
16:30
to them to meld their essences and
16:32
create what would become the first
16:34
Nephilim uh Lenarian Rathma and he he is
16:39
not only does he say repeatedly that he
16:40
sees a serpent when you go to the oracle
16:43
the path you walk is a gigantic serpent
16:47
and they even say as the serpent came to
16:49
bring the first oracle of the visions
16:52
you know we too walk that path. So over
16:54
and over again people who can see beyond
16:58
the physical reality of sanctuary are
17:00
said to be visited by or visit the
17:02
serpent and we've seen it when we go
17:05
find the tree of whispers. So why why
17:08
did it show us the path to the tree of
17:10
whispers? What is the tree of whispers?
17:11
Why is there a tree where if you put
17:13
somebody's head on it, the tree now has
17:15
all of their memories? You know, it
17:17
doesn't necessarily have their soul, no
17:19
one's ever been particularly clear on
17:20
that, but it remembers. And we see when
17:24
Laurth's head speaks to us, uh, sorry if
17:26
that's a spoiler, guys, but come on. Um,
17:29
Laur's head speaks to us before we burn
17:31
the tree, and it doesn't speak to us
17:34
like Laur, but it doesn't it just knows
17:36
what he knew. And you even tell the tree
17:38
you, you know, look into, look into his
17:40
head, you know, look into the memories
17:42
you have, you'll know this isn't going
17:44
to go well for you. And the tree still
17:46
refuses and you still burn it down.
17:49
What is the tree of whispers? No idea.
17:52
Why is it still giving us quests even
17:55
though we burned the tree down? That's a
17:57
good question, isn't it? We burned the
17:58
tree down, but the birds didn't all get
18:00
burned, did they?
18:01
>> No, they didn't. And the birds seem to
18:03
be the eyes of the of the tree, right?
18:06
>> Not just the eyes of the tree. They're
18:07
the ones currently giving you the
18:08
quests. When you two those quests, you
18:10
turn them into the birds. Even if you go
18:12
to the site of the tree of whispers, you
18:15
don't go up to the tree. You go up to
18:17
the bird. If the tree of whispers I I
18:19
think we paid way too much attention on
18:21
the tree aspect of tree of whispers and
18:24
not the whispers aspect of tree of
18:26
whispers. It was just a tree of
18:28
whispers. Now the whispers are going
18:30
between birds. If we think of whispers
18:32
as less of a if we put a definitive
18:35
article in front of it and say the
18:36
whispers, I think we're getting closer
18:38
to what this all is. And the relation
18:42
between we've said this before, we
18:44
talked about it when in terms of the
18:45
spirit realm. The spirit realm almost
18:47
seems to be this completely completely
18:51
roing place of constant change like like
18:54
pure chaos, not like chaos mixed with
18:57
anything else. It's where things
18:59
constantly change. Change is the only
19:01
constant in the spirit realm. Uh we we
19:03
get that from our friend Eru who ends up
19:05
betraying us. But you know before you
19:07
know he betrayed us because we kind of
19:09
ruined everything if you think about it.
19:12
Us and Nel really did wreck up
19:14
everything he held sacred. Uh the you
19:16
know the the spirit I'm calling him the
19:19
lowa already. Um the spirit that he most
19:22
respected. Um then then the whole deal
19:25
with uh Akarat and Akarat's body getting
19:29
stolen. That was Eru who gave the body
19:31
to Meto just to get a promise out of
19:33
Meto he'd leave uh he'd leave them
19:36
alone. And I don't think it's it's a
19:39
surprise that um the whole area around
19:42
Traven call and I I just played Diablo
19:45
board this morning so the fact that I
19:46
can't remember the name of the zone is
19:47
driving me insane. Um, but the Howard
19:51
and then the zone south of it, which was
19:54
originally Torjon. I can't even remember
19:55
that it was called Torjon, but I can't
19:56
remember. Please, someone say the name.
19:58
Come on, you know the zone. Please,
20:00
someone help me.
20:01
>> I got nothing.
20:02
>> Irrelevant. Keep going forward.
20:04
>> Anyway, those I I find myself wondering
20:06
if that zone is part of the sanctuary
20:09
like because that's where to that's
20:11
where they couldn't even decide what it
20:13
was called outside of it. And Nantu,
20:15
there we go. Thank you, Brain. Um, Nantu
20:18
and Howazar are more similar to each
20:20
other than any other zones in the entire
20:23
game are. Like if you're playing Diablo
20:26
I, it's no zone is like Howar except
20:29
Nantu. And Nahu is different than
20:32
Howazar. It's almost like Howazar is the
20:36
original entry point for a conceptual
20:39
entity and then Nantu is the first place
20:42
affected by it. If that makes sense. And
20:45
the fact that you can get into the
20:48
spirit world so easily in the hunt. And
20:51
that spirit world is not very different
20:53
from what you see when you go tripping,
20:56
you know, tripping balls. I'm just going
20:57
to say it. Uh in Howazar to find the the
21:01
the world serpent or when you do the
21:03
same thing with with Donan to alleviate
21:06
his his crisis over his dead son because
21:09
you do it twice. you know, in order for
21:11
Donan to talk to his dead son, we go
21:13
into another like we, you know, what if
21:16
it wasn't just us getting high off of
21:18
swamp, you know, mucus and it was
21:21
actually us entering into a world where
21:24
you can talk directly to a spirit. And
21:26
we know from what the real Acarat said
21:29
that we don't even know if that big
21:32
white spirit tiger thing was the
21:35
original human Acarat or just something
21:38
inspired by him that had spiritual
21:41
weight. Did Donan's grief create a
21:45
spirit version of his son? like so
21:47
powerful his his his need to speak to
21:50
his son one last time so powerful that
21:52
the spirits obliged him or was it
21:55
actually him? All of this is to say I
21:58
don't think that we've got any sort of
22:01
answer onto the ultimate physical
22:03
reality of Nantu or Howazar. And I don't
22:08
know that Howazar the tree I don't think
22:11
the tree was ever that important. It was
22:14
the the memories that it was carrying
22:16
and the whispers that it disseminated.
22:19
And the whispers are still disseminated.
22:21
It's almost as if it waited until we got
22:24
there and and did that whole deal to get
22:27
itself burned. Like it took the deal
22:29
with Laurath intending that the tree be
22:33
burned because it doesn't need the tree
22:35
anymore. If that makes sense to people.
22:37
That's
22:38
>> like it it almost it almost feels like
22:39
the the heads are sort of like data
22:41
banks, right? Like they were almost like
22:43
hard drives. they had the information of
22:44
the the previous people that had made
22:47
the deal and the tree was sort of like
22:48
the storage area for it and like again I
22:52
think you're right. I think there may be
22:54
too too much of a focus on the tree
22:56
portion. Um, and I've I've been thinking
22:59
about this a little bit since then. We
23:01
saw and a lot of people are making the
23:02
assumption that all of the birds died
23:04
when the tree was on fire cuz that's
23:05
part of the scene, the birds falling
23:07
from the sky with the, you know, on fire
23:09
and but not all of them died. I think
23:12
cuz, you know, there are other that
23:15
weren't at the tree when it was lit on
23:16
fire. They were scattered. They were the
23:20
messengers. They were the retrievers of
23:21
the prized items. when a uh person went
23:25
down and they had a tree like a bargain
23:28
with the tree and they lost their head,
23:30
the birds are the ones that went to
23:31
retrieve it and bring it back to the
23:33
tree. It wasn't necessarily that, you
23:35
know, that person brought their own head
23:36
back to the tree. Um or it was maybe
23:39
>> No, we see that with Elias.
23:41
>> Yeah.
23:41
>> When when Elias goes down and finally
23:43
dies, the bird descends and pulls his
23:47
head off and leaves with it. You don't
23:48
you don't do that. The the bird does it.
23:51
>> Yeah. And so the whisperers I think are
23:54
more like you said, I think it's more of
23:56
a a force, right? It's more of a an
24:00
otherworldly entity if anything else.
24:03
And I think that's the way we need to
24:05
think about it. And going back to
24:06
Hawazar and the fact that we think that
24:08
Hawazar is not necessarily fully of
24:10
Sanctuary, but it's kind of buted up
24:12
against it, and we've talked about that
24:13
quite a bit.
24:15
um the place where you go and and deal
24:17
with the tree of whispers. Um which is
24:21
what uh it's to the it's on what far
24:24
south of Tula and then like far east of
24:29
like where Hawazar is the writhing meer
24:31
I think it is. Um it's almost like it's
24:34
its own little place and like you said
24:36
we made these deals to go on the vision
24:38
quest to even find where this place was.
24:40
And does that mean that that place is
24:42
real? Maybe not. Um,
24:46
>> maybe not.
24:46
>> There seems to be a lot of, and we've
24:49
talked about this before, Sanctuary
24:51
being the only stable world that was
24:54
ever created with the the the the world
24:57
stone. Um, yeah, that's it. It's not
25:01
uncommon or or in like when you have a
25:04
massive object in science to that thing
25:06
to have a small gravitational pull to
25:09
pull other bits and pieces to it. And if
25:11
sanctuary is the largest, most stable
25:14
part of it, anything else that was
25:16
created with the world stone that failed
25:20
that maybe had remnants out there, which
25:22
we think that there's a bunch of them.
25:23
We've talked about this with the void.
25:24
We've talked about those other things.
25:26
Some of that may just be butdded up
25:28
against Sanctuary and they may have been
25:29
there for time immemorial. Um
25:32
>> yeah, I mean look at too like there's
25:33
also all sorts of like weird little
25:35
things about um sanctuary and how are in
25:38
particular. It's not a coincidence that
25:41
to get to Wrathma's laboratory, you have
25:44
to go out to the very coast of Howar and
25:47
then step outside of what the tree of
25:50
whispers can see. The tree cannot does
25:53
not see what you do when you go to
25:55
Rathma's laboratory. It does no ability
25:58
to perceive you there. Why?
26:00
>> Yeah. And also, think about how you get
26:02
there. Think about how you get there,
26:03
too. Like, you
26:04
>> die.
26:05
>> You go into a coffin and drown. Mhm. And
26:09
then the coffin's there and you get out
26:11
of it and then you get up again after
26:14
like they find you in the coffin. It's
26:16
kind of like I mean if you guys have
26:17
seen the serpent in the rainbow I know
26:19
you know that this that this is very
26:22
akin to real life practices. It's the
26:25
idea of the the shamanic you know nine
26:27
nights to nine nights I lay on myself to
26:30
myself. It's it's that idea of of ego
26:32
death as metaphorical death
26:35
>> like actual death. And I I I keep
26:38
thinking about the fact that Rathma
26:40
because that's the second part of your
26:41
question. Are we going to see any more
26:42
Rathma? And I do think it's connected
26:43
because Wraithma seems to have known
26:45
that serpent better than anybody. And I
26:49
I know they're not using the name. They
26:51
have not yet used the name, but I am
26:54
positive that thing's Traul. And if you
26:58
if you know, Traul has been around, as I
27:00
mentioned, since the original Diablo II.
27:02
like there's an item uh it was actually
27:04
originally called the tra it was just
27:06
the trigger and then become trigul they
27:08
they've changed the name and spelling of
27:10
the name a couple of times but even if
27:13
we don't we we know we can't take the
27:15
sin war books as pure gospel here
27:18
because we know ironically the main
27:20
character of the sin of the sin war
27:23
books edited himself out of existence
27:26
so we don't know how much of it it still
27:29
holds on but there there is a fact that
27:32
Wrathma spent more time understanding
27:35
how life and death are balanced
27:39
in the entire history of Sanctuary. More
27:42
so, certainly more so than his parents,
27:44
neither of which ever expected to truly
27:45
>> Yeah. When I I was trying to look up
27:47
Wrathma because I'm not too much up on
27:49
Diablo. Not as not anywhere near as much
27:51
as you guys. But finding out that one of
27:54
his titles is keeper of balance, it's
27:56
like it's death probably is going to be
27:58
overcomeable for this character. I mean,
28:01
That's so uncomfortable. He can be dead
28:02
and still talk to you cuz he's dead
28:05
right now.
28:05
>> Yeah, that's already happened. Yeah.
28:07
>> Yeah. He's dead right now and still when
28:08
you get the Scovos, he's still chatting
28:10
with you because it it's his idea of of
28:14
how life and death work. His his idea of
28:16
the balance means that he never has to
28:18
come back as a living figure to still be
28:21
heavily involved in future events
28:23
because he could see the future. So he,
28:25
you know, if you're supposed to talk to
28:27
him, you'll get to a place and you'll
28:29
find something and it's going to have
28:30
like, you know, effectively a a Wrathma
28:33
recording will pop out of it and talk to
28:36
you because he knew you were supposed to
28:38
talk to him. It It's You could do it a
28:40
hundred different ways with Rathma. Do I
28:42
think we'll see him again? Yes. Uh the
28:44
joke I made at the opening of the show
28:46
about Deca Kane was only slightly a joke
28:50
because they literally could do what I
28:52
just said. I didn't mean that they're
28:54
going to. I don't think, but they could.
28:56
It's already It's already supported in
28:58
the in the lore. Heck, I don't know if I
29:02
don't know if either of you guys played
29:03
Diablo II very much. I don't think so.
29:05
But there's a bit in Diablo III where
29:07
you show up after the main campaign, you
29:10
you show up in the camp for adventure
29:12
mode and Zultan Cool's ghost is just
29:14
floating there and you go up to him and
29:16
go, "What are you doing here? You're
29:18
dead." head and he goes, "Yes, yes, you
29:20
killed me. But let's face it, it's very
29:22
hard to kill me and you did a sloppy
29:24
job."
29:26
And
29:27
there are just some characters that
29:30
lore-wise it makes perfect sense. Zultan
29:32
Cool, it makes perfect sense because
29:33
that guy spent an awful lot of time
29:36
figuring out how to pull souls out of
29:37
things and stick them in other things.
29:39
That was like his whole deal. Wrathma,
29:41
it makes sense because Wrathma,
29:43
>> he's the first four Nephilim.
29:45
>> Yes, exactly. If the other Nephilim
29:48
could do it, and we know they could, at
29:50
least three of them were showing up like
29:53
thousands of of years after their
29:55
deaths, then there's absolutely no no
29:58
chance Wrathma couldn't do.
29:59
>> Yeah, it happens pretty often. I mean,
30:01
in video games, like 8% of the time when
30:02
you're having a conversation with
30:04
someone, they have died previously in
30:06
some way and you're talking to their
30:09
reanimated entity or their corpse or
30:12
their ghost or their projection or their
30:14
something. Half the time they're like,
30:16
"Aren't you curious how I'm here?" It's
30:17
like, "No, I'm not really. Just tell me
30:19
what you want so I can get your sword."
30:21
>> Yeah, that's not that unfair. But in the
30:24
case of Rathma, as Joe pointed out, he's
30:25
not only the the firstborn Nephilim,
30:27
he's the proof of concept of cuz nobody
30:30
had ever tried to reconnect the angel
30:34
and demon aspects of of creation into
30:37
one being before. And the last time that
30:39
we had a being like that, it was Anu,
30:42
the original primordial Anu, who then
30:44
separated himself into two and created
30:47
Tathamett. And then Tath and Anu
30:49
destroyed themselves. Blah blah blah.
30:51
I've said it before and I've said it
30:53
again. It that would make Rathma the
30:55
closest thing to the primordial Anu that
30:58
had ever existed up to that point. And
31:00
that means if my theory is correct and
31:03
that Traul is essentially the ghost of
31:06
Anu, then yeah, of course he would talk
31:09
to Rathma cuz that's like talking to
31:11
your grandkid. I was like, "Oh, hey,
31:13
finally. What is What are you doing
31:15
here? This is great. I'll tell you all
31:17
about balance." And what why wouldn't
31:20
the the world stone fragments that that
31:22
Joe was talking about? This I think all
31:24
ties in because I think Wraithma could
31:27
see them
31:28
>> and that's why he could build himself a
31:30
little base outside of Sanctuary by
31:33
going to the part of Sanctuary that was
31:35
like a like was like a little detritus
31:37
piece and jumping off to where it
31:40
originally comes from. And we've seen
31:42
that that's not the only pocket
31:44
dimension. We know that Nephilim could
31:46
create pocket dimensions because there's
31:48
the Nephilim rifts in Diablo III which
31:51
are created by Oric. And Oric flat out
31:53
says the Nephilim used to do this all
31:55
the time. They used to just create you
31:57
know these rifts and you know do battle
32:00
in them and create realities inside them
32:04
which is exactly what the world stone
32:06
supposedly did. So Nephilim have the
32:08
inborn ability to be like the world
32:10
stone which is itself was the only piece
32:13
left of the original Anu. So you know
32:15
will I see we see wrath again? I think
32:18
so because I don't see how we could
32:20
avoid it. you know, he he is him being
32:23
dead is just like that's just him doing
32:26
what he was supposed to do. He doesn't
32:28
You'll notice he doesn't make even the
32:30
slightest attempt to avoid. He knows his
32:32
dad's going to come kill him. And he
32:34
even tells him he says, "I knew you were
32:36
going to do this. Sorry."
32:37
>> He's like, "Look, here's no, here's my
32:39
here's what I saw. Um I you know, I saw
32:42
my dead body with the with the key being
32:44
lifted off of it. If you are meant to be
32:48
the one, then then there's nothing that
32:50
can stop that. And when when Inarius
32:53
killed him, he couldn't find the key
32:56
because he isn't the one who was going
32:58
to lift it off of his corpse. Rather
33:00
never said that he was. He just said,
33:03
"If you're meant to do all this, nothing
33:05
can stop it." Meaning that since I know
33:07
who is meant to do it, nothing can stop
33:10
that either. The the the wiggle room in
33:12
this prophecy is the stuff I don't
33:14
explain. Like the more I tell you, the
33:17
less likely you are you have of any
33:19
outcome being influenced by you. But if
33:21
I don't tell you what stuff means, now
33:24
you have room to to wiggle about. You
33:26
can fit into it somehow. And that's I
33:29
like that's Rathma. Wrathma is all about
33:32
figuring out not just what he can learn
33:34
and what he can know, but how he can
33:37
successfully not convey that information
33:39
in order to leave room for new
33:41
interpolations. Rothma is essentially
33:44
retconing as a person in your game. Like
33:47
that is his whole deal. That is what he
33:48
does. He ch because he wasn't in he
33:51
wasn't in the original Diablo. This
33:53
entire concept wasn't in the original
33:54
Diablo. The whole Nephilim deal starts
33:57
slowly in like Diablo II.
34:00
>> And it really isn't fleshed out even
34:02
remotely close until the wars.
34:05
>> Yeah. Not even close. So I think the
34:07
fact that Rothman is dead is literally
34:09
just what Rathma was supposed to do. The
34:11
reason he's the he's the called the
34:12
priest of balance and the you priest of
34:15
Rothma are called you know stewards of
34:16
the balance is because balance is the
34:20
thing that sanctuary has and the heavens
34:23
and hells don't by definition those
34:25
realms don't have balance they are the
34:28
furthest arm either way in order to
34:31
balance them you have to have a center
34:32
point you have to have something for
34:35
them to balance around so that's what I
34:38
feel like death is in this setting will
34:40
We see it. We'll see more of Wrathma. I
34:42
believe so. Is Howazizar part of
34:45
Sanctuary only in the sense that you can
34:49
walk from Sanctuary into it? But not
34:52
that it wasn't it wasn't originally
34:54
there. And I think that that's actually
34:56
like a really interesting narrative
34:59
device because Howard isn't mentioned in
35:03
Diablo II.
35:04
>> Nope.
35:05
>> Nahu isn't mentioned in Diablo II. when
35:07
we go to Nahanu in Diablo II because we
35:11
go to the city tracol
35:14
>> which is right there ra you know but but
35:17
it's never called that because it's not
35:19
in Diablo I yet and that's the thing
35:22
that's it's almost it's almost beautiful
35:24
how the narrative is shaping the idea
35:27
that Sanctuary is still changing
35:30
>> yeah and I think that's one of the more
35:31
interesting parts about Diablo in
35:33
general when we talk about Diablo lore
35:35
is that especially since the world stone
35:38
went kabooy. Um, it seems that sanctuary
35:43
is even more mutable than it was before.
35:46
And it also seems like things aren't as
35:50
I want to say hardgated as they were
35:52
before. Cuz one of the things that I
35:54
think was interesting in in Diablo II,
35:56
they mentioned this a little bit. as you
35:58
you definitely go to different biomes in
36:00
Diablo II. That's that's we we
36:03
understand that, but it's always a hard
36:06
slog. It's always difficult. It's always
36:10
arduous. There is always national or
36:12
national natural geography that sort of
36:15
operates as a barrier between these
36:18
zones.
36:19
And whether it's you have to cross a
36:22
raging sea, go across a frozen
36:24
mountainscape, travel a desert that is
36:28
not impossible unless you understand how
36:30
to live there, or go through a a vibrant
36:34
jungle that you will die as quickly as
36:38
stepping foot off of it the minute you
36:40
get bitten by one of the mosquitoes um
36:42
or one of the things that are larger
36:44
than the mosquitoes and will literally
36:45
use you as a juice box. But now,
36:48
especially in Diablo I, and it's
36:50
something that I think I really haven't
36:51
thought about until Matt really brought
36:53
this up, is we can walk these places. We
36:57
can go. And yet, it's not easy easy, but
37:00
it's a hell of a lot easier than it was
37:01
before. It's uh much easier than it was
37:04
even maybe in Diablo II.
37:06
>> Yeah. Because Diablo II you don't
37:07
actually you don't even see the
37:09
barriers. You just appear in the new
37:11
place when it's time. There's a trans
37:13
there's a transition. So you don't
37:15
whatever your character had to do to get
37:16
there, you don't see it. It's not
37:19
considered important. Like you you go to
37:21
a place when it is narratively time for
37:23
you to go there. Uh and the and the
37:25
Horadric way stations are there and you
37:28
use them sometimes, but you have to wake
37:30
them up first. So they don't allow you
37:32
to make the the preliminary trek. It is
37:36
interesting to think about the fact that
37:38
and it's not necessarily easy to go say
37:41
from the fractured peaks to Scalland or
37:44
howazar both of which are like on you
37:46
know either side of it. One's north of
37:48
it one's south of it. It's not easy but
37:50
it is doable. people are doing it like
37:53
you you meet people on the road who are
37:55
like, "Yeah, I left the fractured peaks
37:57
because the cathedral can't help my son
37:59
and you know, so I I'm walking down to
38:02
to get a cure from the the the witches
38:04
in Howazar." And the idea of doing that
38:07
in even in Diablo II, the idea of
38:09
somebody walking from what is the
38:11
Fractured Peaks to what is Howazar would
38:14
have been ridiculous cuz we knew that
38:16
there were people from what is Howazar
38:18
or Nantu in Diablo II. They're the witch
38:21
doctor and the crusader.
38:23
>> If you see a crusader, they that's where
38:25
they originally came from. Um yeah, the
38:27
the the idea of the the travel is more a
38:31
part of the story and so the world has
38:34
changed subtly to allow that travel to
38:37
be part of this. I think that's a lot of
38:40
this is is really metaffective thinking,
38:43
but it is also present just in like when
38:46
you go all of the fractured peak stuff
38:48
when you're chasing Lilith, you go
38:50
underground and you go through a whole
38:51
bunch of temples and you don't see those
38:54
anything like those temples again till
38:55
you go to Sco and the underground stuff
38:57
in Sco is very similar. And that's like,
39:00
okay, wait a minute. If Sco was the
39:03
birthplace of of humanity and the
39:05
Nephilim, which we know it was, and we
39:08
know there are there are obvious first
39:11
ones slash Nephilim, whatever word you
39:14
want to use, firstborn, Nephilim, I
39:16
don't care, but there's Nephilim bases
39:18
in both the Fractured Peaks and over in
39:22
in West March where Rakis went. And
39:25
Rakis left from, you know, part of the
39:27
of the empire. He was he left from you
39:30
know Kajistan which had supposedly
39:33
conquered Nantu. I'm doing air quotes
39:36
here which is ridiculous. I'm being
39:37
recorded. No one can see me. Air quotes
39:39
don't help. But Nantu influences these
39:42
areas and is obviously influenced by
39:45
Howar because the whole snake thing
39:47
again and the whole other world that you
39:50
can access and which has these entities
39:52
inside it. I I I really find this all f
39:55
kind of fascinating how it's almost it's
39:58
almost backwards in how it it how it's
40:00
expanding. Like you said it's like the
40:03
world stone like it's like the world is
40:05
more mutable now that the world stone's
40:06
gone. I'd argue the world is more
40:08
mutable now that nobody there's no
40:10
object someone can hold and be in charge
40:12
of the narrative.
40:13
>> Yeah. And I think I think that's a part
40:15
of it too, right? Like the other thing
40:16
that I kept thinking about too is like
40:17
we talk about howar and we talk about
40:19
these other places and when did we
40:21
really start hearing about them? We
40:24
didn't hear about them Diablo. We didn't
40:25
hear about them in Diablo 2. These are
40:28
not places that Decard Kane had gone to.
40:30
He didn't mention him in his book. And
40:32
by the time we meet Decard Kane in
40:34
Diablo II, he's a welltraveled Harrier,
40:36
right? Um it's not really until Diablo
40:40
II that we even start to get mentions of
40:42
places outside starting to form. And
40:45
really, it's after the world stone is
40:47
shattered. And so, part of me also
40:49
wonders if part of it is the world stone
40:52
keeping sanctuary isolated as well, if
40:57
that makes sense. Where like
40:59
>> I think it might because here's the
41:00
thing that I've been thinking about that
41:01
I think relates to you didn't find
41:03
barbarians
41:05
anywhere but up north and occasionally
41:08
one or two would come down.
41:09
>> Yeah, because it was Mount Ari and they
41:10
they would maybe sometimes travel, but
41:12
that was really about it. Once you break
41:14
that thing though, like you go look at
41:17
Diablo 4, there are barbarian groups
41:19
living all over uh Estuar, which is the
41:23
continent that we're we're on. There's
41:26
barbarians everywhere of all sorts of
41:28
ethnic backgrounds, but they're all the
41:30
children of Bulathos. They're how did
41:33
their culture get spread this far in in
41:36
what's essentially a hundred years?
41:38
>> Yeah. And like but part of me is like
41:41
wondering if like where I'm going with
41:42
it is also not just that but like I'm
41:45
wondering if part of the world sort of
41:47
that's when things were able to latch on
41:49
to it. That's when the veil was thinner.
41:51
That's why the serpent was protecting uh
41:54
Howazar because it before this wasn't
41:57
attached to uh the rest of Sanctuary.
42:00
Not really. Uh but now it is because the
42:03
world stone's no longer there to keep it
42:05
at bay. Um but it's the same thing with
42:07
like the druids. We we talk about, you
42:09
know, Sclenn and and the areas that
42:11
they're from. Uh but the druids were
42:14
they existed in other parts of the
42:16
world, even in Diablo 2.
42:18
>> In fact, they had to Yeah. And they had
42:20
to actually even go back to Scland
42:21
because the ones that were waiting there
42:24
got destroyed by a demon who we didn't
42:26
even hear about until this game.
42:27
>> Yeah. But I mean, like it it was it's
42:29
just one of those things where it's like
42:30
I'm wondering how much the World Stone
42:33
was keeping Sanctuary static. And that
42:36
kind of also ties in with the sin war a
42:38
little bit too, right? Like and that's
42:40
why
42:41
>> that's exactly what he does.
42:42
>> That's exactly what he does, right? It's
42:44
exactly what he does.
42:44
>> He rolls it back. He's like, "Oh, it's
42:46
it's all unraveling and the world is
42:48
changing. If I get rid of myself, I can
42:51
prevent this." He chooses stasis.
42:54
>> And what he was unraveling was because
42:56
he was tapping into the power of the
42:58
world stone as a Nephilim, which was
43:01
causing it to, you know, evolve or morph
43:04
or do whatever. Yeah. Like it's it's a
43:06
really interesting thought and I'm very
43:09
very curious about that moving forward
43:11
if there's going to be elements of that
43:13
that play into the story of Diablo for
43:15
Gone because the other thing that we
43:16
haven't really talked about in terms of
43:18
the game itself are those world charts.
43:22
What happened to all of them? Where are
43:24
they? Because they went somewhere when
43:28
things went kabooy in Diablo II.
43:29
>> Yeah. I mean, if you want to use Diablo
43:31
Immortal as a as, you know, a layer, a
43:35
lore point, when Diablo II happened, at
43:37
the end of Diablo II, when you blew up
43:39
the world stone or Tyial blew up the
43:40
world stone, it erupted into the all
43:43
these shards that people could pick up
43:45
and suddenly access the power remaining
43:47
in the stone. Like the piece of the
43:49
world stone that had some of the power
43:51
of the world stone in it, now people
43:53
could use it. Well, isn't doesn't uh
43:56
Yeah, that's interesting because yeah,
43:57
Diablo
43:59
Immortal is between Diablo II and three,
44:01
right?
44:02
>> Yeah, it's like about 10 years before
44:03
Diablo II and 10 years after. It's it's
44:06
a 25 year gap between those two games.
44:08
>> Yeah. And then Diablo II is about 20
44:11
years after Diablo II, give or take,
44:14
>> I'd say. Yeah, I think 25 they say at
44:16
one point.
44:16
>> Yeah. And then Diablo I is roughly
44:18
30-ish years after Diablo or after
44:20
Diablo II. So like
44:22
>> not the other two, but Yeah.
44:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's interesting cuz
44:25
like Yeah. I don't know because we we we
44:27
talk about it in Diablo Immortal. Diablo
44:30
II kind of really doesn't talk about it
44:32
that much and then Diablo I haven't
44:34
talked about it at all. No. And but it's
44:36
interesting because we have had like
44:37
lots of little things in Diablo 4. Like
44:41
for example, Elias's base when you find
44:45
it, it's in a place where literally
44:47
nobody has been going. And it's almost
44:49
like he pulled a piece of old Kajistan
44:52
out into the present. And they just
44:55
leave that. They say that and then they
44:56
leave it. What if that's literally what
44:58
he did? Because here's the thing about
45:00
Elias. Elias went to Rathma's tomb, the
45:04
the the laboratory. He went there. He So
45:06
he skipped out of our reality. He went
45:09
someplace where the where the the tree
45:11
couldn't follow him. Someplace outside
45:14
of sanctuary. the tree of the tree of
45:15
whispers, however it is, whatever it is,
45:18
it feels like a a cutting grafted on to
45:21
a to like a native thing. It's like a
45:23
piece. It the whispers themselves feel
45:25
like something that is part of
45:27
Sanctuary, but not that it's it's a part
45:31
from it
45:32
>> like like a like a an atmospheric layer
45:35
or whatever. Whatever Wrathmus
45:37
Laboratory was, it was a place where he
45:39
could go and feel completely secure that
45:42
nobody could watch him. And considering
45:46
he was the best there is at watching
45:48
people, you know, without them knowing
45:51
he was doing it, I'd suggest he would
45:53
know how to do that. Uh, the Zanu were
45:56
all led by Essu, what like his younger
45:58
sister. I'm sure he didn't want to talk
46:00
to Essu about whatever he was doing. Um
46:03
I know he didn't want to talk to
46:04
Bulcathos um or or Vaseli Fiaklaar and
46:09
there are plenty of other Nephilim
46:10
besides those. There's like in Scovos we
46:13
find about Fyios. Uh we already knew
46:14
about Filios to a degree but Filios is
46:17
was a Nephilim. There's just so much to
46:20
this what exactly the Nephilim are and
46:22
how it's related to the world around
46:24
them. Like what the Nephilim did
46:27
cascaded through the world. It changed
46:29
it. And I think it that's the the thing
46:32
about once Inarius goes into this the
46:35
the prison in hell once the world stone
46:37
is just stuck up in on the mountain in
46:40
Ariat and is just guarded for hundreds
46:42
of years. Sanctuary goes completely
46:46
static and and it starts getting wild
46:50
again once the three, you know, the
46:53
three primes send themselves to
46:55
Sanctuary, get themselves put into soul
46:58
stones, which are made from the world
47:00
stone, and then spend their time coming
47:03
up with a plan to conquer Sanctuary by
47:07
corrupting the world stone. And that's
47:09
the plan B was on when he went and and
47:12
and he did corrupt the world stone. But
47:15
it's Tyel who broke the world stone,
47:17
which means both a demon and an angel
47:21
used the world stone to to create
47:23
sanctuary. Both a demon and an angel
47:27
destroyed the world stone. And you were
47:29
talking about the black soul stone and
47:31
the fragments of it. Where did they go?
47:32
Right.
47:33
>> Yep.
47:34
>> At the end. What if when Maliel pulls
47:38
the the the he breaks the black soul
47:41
stone and uses the poor the pieces
47:42
inside himself, he's literally not
47:45
accessing the demons. He's accessing the
47:48
world stone because that's the last
47:50
biggest chunk of the world stone left.
47:52
That's that's the last piece of the
47:54
world stone at that point. The last
47:57
except for that tiny piece of the black
47:58
soul stone you have like the the player
48:01
has in Diablo II. I I don't know. But I
48:04
do feel like there's a lot to this. How
48:06
come you notice that the the the various
48:08
prime and lesser evils started
48:10
regenerating again as soon as that
48:13
happened?
48:14
>> Yeah. Like that's another thing that I
48:15
think is interesting too, right? Cuz we
48:17
we started talking about this um like
48:21
what was the impetus to cause them to
48:23
start to regenerate now? And this seems
48:26
like it's it right. like it.
48:28
>> Yeah, I think it's the moment the moment
48:30
Maliel used the black soul stone to to
48:33
pull in all those human like the parts
48:36
of human souls that come from demons and
48:38
then breaks it and then is destroyed and
48:40
the pieces are just gone. I think it's
48:43
the the life force of all those humans
48:46
that died had to go somewhere and the
48:49
only thing close enough was the black
48:51
soul stone. That's the thing they were
48:53
being drawn through in the first place.
48:55
That's the thing that was killing them.
48:57
And then suddenly all these demon lords
48:58
are regenerating.
48:59
>> Yeah. And I mean it also seems like a
49:02
perfect opportunity for them as well
49:03
too. Like going back to the whole idea
49:06
of
49:08
uh it's more mutable than it ever has
49:11
been before. And we see that in Diablo I
49:15
right? We see that with the hell tides.
49:17
We see that with the the the effect that
49:20
Meisto has walking the world. Because
49:21
think about that too, right? In Diablo
49:24
II, the Prime Evils were on the planet.
49:28
They were there. They were in Sanctuary.
49:30
And what happened with them? We went and
49:32
punched them in the face. And I would
49:35
note that in a lot of those cases, they
49:37
were there for how long before we went
49:40
and got there. How much was their
49:41
influence being like pushed and and
49:44
dealt with and and and sort of like
49:46
subtly in the background? and their
49:48
effects were a lot more subtle than it
49:51
was here. But in Diablo I 4, the effect
49:55
of hatred is so infectious
49:59
to the land of sanctuary that we very
50:03
quickly see the world landscape
50:06
literally transmute itself, do we not?
50:10
>> Oh, yeah. Um, and actually that's
50:12
interesting to point out too that I'm
50:14
glad I'm kind of glad you did because
50:16
this ties into the fact that the PvP
50:18
zones are said to be tainted by hatred,
50:20
right?
50:21
>> Yep.
50:22
>> Literally, you're you're pulling weird
50:24
hatred jot rocks out of the ground in
50:26
those areas. And then when you get to uh
50:30
Nantu, one of the first things you're
50:32
told is that this weird this weird
50:33
corruption to the world is something
50:35
that happened to them before and that
50:37
they couldn't stop. They could only like
50:39
only these old relics could hold it
50:41
back. And if the old relics aren't made
50:44
from soul stone pieces, I would
50:47
>> I would be I would be so surprised if
50:49
that's not the case. Especially when you
50:50
consider
50:51
>> soul stones look like gemstones. And I
50:54
mean the people were like we could talk
50:57
about the crafting system in Diablo I
50:59
how that actually ties into the in the
51:01
lore specifically jewel crafting. Uh
51:04
because when you go to a jeweler's they
51:06
are taking raw material and like pushing
51:10
it in into like these things that have
51:13
an effect right like these gemstones
51:15
have power in them. So now if they get
51:18
their hands on a piece of soul stone and
51:20
they don't know that it is a soul stone,
51:24
is that necessarily like would they put
51:26
it into a like a an artifact that is a
51:29
you know a ring or an amulet or
51:31
something like that not knowing what
51:34
damage does that cause?
51:35
>> Yeah. Or I mean since we know the soul
51:36
stones are made from the world stone
51:38
originally if you cut the a fragment of
51:41
the world stone off from the world stone
51:43
and we heard this from Sultan Cool in D4
51:45
as well. He talks about how it's like a
51:47
void in there, like the void. And that's
51:49
why it works as a prison even
51:51
temporarily for demons and angels
51:54
because they can't reach anything
51:56
outside of it and they are inherently
51:58
outside of sanctuary. Sanctuary is a
52:00
place where those forces come in from
52:02
the outside and other forces are trying
52:04
to come in from the outside. And that's
52:06
the whole deal with the void. That's the
52:08
deal with the spirit realm which is like
52:09
the opposite of the void. I think in a
52:11
real way we've got a fourplane cosmology
52:15
here with um pandemonium and sanctuary
52:19
as kind of like opposing central points.
52:22
Pandemonium is where everything runs
52:24
riot all the time and there is no
52:26
balance. Sanctuary is where balance is
52:28
fundamental. You have to have balance or
52:32
you're just pandemonium. If you are
52:34
pandemonium, balance is anathema because
52:37
then you won't be pandemonium any. And
52:40
heavens, hell, the void, and the spirit
52:43
realm are each opposing on one way or
52:46
another. Both heaven and the spirit
52:49
realm have that vibrant light aspect of
52:52
them. Both the void and hell have that
52:55
destruction of everything aspect to
52:57
them, but they're very different in ways
52:59
as well. Each of them opposes everything
53:01
else in some way. And it's the opposing
53:04
forces that in Sanctuary with Sanctuary
53:07
as the center are balanc. And if my
53:10
theory about Trigle being like the ghost
53:12
of Anu or whatever, it would be similar
53:15
to what Rathma himself does where he
53:17
puts he dies and yet there's this there
53:19
is another spirit of Rothma telling you
53:21
things. That could be what Traul is to
53:24
universe. I I I I feel like that the the
53:27
malleability you're talking about, I
53:28
think it is very obviously stronger now.
53:31
Part of it is the fact that they're
53:33
acting they're acting without fear of
53:35
any. There's no there's nothing to stop
53:37
them anymore. At least that's what they
53:39
think. Hell is no longer controlled by
53:42
by the four lessers. It's very clearly
53:44
none of the four lessers. They were all
53:47
regenerated. Everybody had been taken
53:49
out by what happened in Diablo II. There
53:51
was there's just been this the whole
53:53
world is is on the precipice of a great
53:56
change. And I think we're only onethird
53:58
of the way through it. We just saw the
54:00
hatred part. And the hatred part's
54:02
interesting because hatred it created
54:05
sanctuary. Lilith and Anarius working
54:08
together created sanctuary with the
54:10
world stone which means hatred is part
54:12
of it. And we've talked before about
54:14
this. We keep looking at the the the
54:17
primevalss as evils because they're
54:20
demons, right?
54:21
>> But ultimately they're really just
54:23
emotional states just like the
54:24
archangels.
54:24
>> Yes. Right. Like they they they are just
54:26
aspects of personality of the original
54:28
Anu.
54:29
>> Yeah. And you you know what is the old
54:31
saying that the opposite of love isn't
54:33
hate, it's indifference.
54:34
>> Yep.
54:35
>> Like if you you know Meisto
54:38
is the perfect demon to create children
54:40
because he has he's completely
54:43
not suited to to being a parent, right?
54:47
But at the same time, he holds on to
54:49
things. Hatred is all about holding on
54:52
to something way past the point where
54:54
you should have let go. Hatred is is a
54:56
million things, but one of those things
54:58
is that that ability to just burn with a
55:01
grudge and and keep coming back to try
55:04
and this time I'm going to get it this
55:06
time. And and for that matter, like look
55:08
at like Imperious in heaven who's the
55:10
who's the, you know, the the the
55:12
archangel of valor. And yet is he really
55:15
that brave or is he scared? Like look at
55:17
the way he is when he goes after Diablo.
55:19
He goes after Diablo like, you know, the
55:22
very s the identity of Diablo offends
55:24
him because Diablo is literally walking
55:27
fear, right? And that's I'm valor. I
55:30
can't be afraid. If you're not afraid,
55:32
why are you acting like
55:33
>> Mhm.
55:33
>> I think that we've talked about it
55:34
before. The fact that they put out all
55:36
those I think it's two years ago now.
55:38
They put out that world that tree
55:40
configuration with the D angels and
55:43
demons as
55:44
>> the family tree. Yeah.
55:46
>> Yeah. I think there's a reason they were
55:48
reminding us that angels and demons
55:49
aren't very far away from each other.
55:51
>> Yeah. And I think that's a lot of things
55:53
that I want to say not people need to
55:56
keep in mind, but need to consider when
55:59
dealing with any of the new revelations
56:01
that we're going to be getting in Diablo
56:03
I and the lore therein, especially
56:06
considering what the last expansion
56:09
story was all about. you know, where we
56:11
wound up, where it ended, um, and what
56:15
it was telling you all the way through.
56:17
So,
56:18
>> we don't know anything about what's
56:19
going to happen with the the Tree of
56:20
Whispers or what the whispers are or
56:22
anything like we we literally story-wise
56:25
right now, it's at the end where the
56:27
tree gets burned. We don't know anything
56:28
past it.
56:29
>> Yes. Like, that is that is the official
56:32
last bit of lore until they release
56:34
something, right? So, we again we
56:38
there's a very long-winded way to answer
56:40
your question. I'm sure none of you
56:41
complained. Um, but we'll probably be
56:44
talking about this more, especially as
56:45
we start to learn what the next Diablo
56:46
expansion. Um, I know for Eric for being
56:49
here.
56:51
>> Sorry, we kind of caught caught on a
56:53
tear there.
56:54
>> No, that's okay. I I didn't have much to
56:56
add and I'm fascinated by the uh
56:58
cosmology and um you know, you get a
57:01
little bit more listening to you guys
57:02
than you do from just reading about it.
57:04
the uh tree gathering heads for the
57:06
knowledge they contain is one of those
57:08
things you have to experience in game
57:10
impact. Reading about it was pretty
57:12
academic and I'm sure that actually
57:14
walking up to it and having it just be
57:16
there is a little bit different.
57:19
>> Yeah. All I'm going to say is that if
57:20
Blizzard wants to pay us a stipen for
57:22
helping keep the lore of Diablo I
57:23
straight for everybody, I'm all here for
57:25
it. But I but I think we're going to
57:27
call it there. Friends, I do want to
57:28
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58:16
week.
#Games