Bad players get sent to the Water Temple

Name: Bad players get sent to the Water Temple | Open Video
Uploaded: 2026-07-01T19:36:10+00:00
Duration: 1 h 15 min 20 s

0:29
Well Bet traveler, welcome to the
0:32
tavern.
0:33
Did you know that this magical place is
0:35
where more than half of history's
0:37
greatest adventures have begun?
0:40
Before those adventurers took their
0:42
first steps, they watched and calculated
0:44
who would join their party.
0:47
See that barbarian over there? He hails
0:50
from the frozen lands. Strong, mighty,
0:52
and full of wisdom. I've closed many a
0:55
nights with that one. They call
0:58
themselves Matt Rossy.
1:00
>> To the right over there, that woman
1:02
working on her tinkers and mechanical
1:04
devices, an artificer of great skill.
1:08
She is cunning and quick, and I've seen
1:10
her bounce a fair share of narrative
1:11
wells out of here before I could even
1:13
step out from behind the bar. She's
1:15
known as Liz Harper.
1:18
And that gentleman by the hearth with a
1:20
pile of tomes. Rumor has it that he is a
1:23
powerful wizard full of arcane secrets.
1:26
But around here, most just call him the
1:27
professor. Me? I know them to be Phil
1:30
Orch.
1:32
Oh, me. I'm Joe Perez. I'll be your
1:36
tavern keeper. Welcome to Tavern Watch.
1:42
Hello and welcome to Tavern Watch, a
1:44
round table discussion about, well,
1:46
tabletop stuff. Uh, I am one of your
1:49
hosts, Joe Perez, and I've got with me a
1:52
marvelous party of adventurers to join
1:54
me on this well adventure. Uh, first up,
1:58
Matt Rossy. How you doing today, Matt?
2:00
>> I am awake, and I'm eating really hot
2:02
wings to make sure I stay awake. We'll
2:04
be doing this early for once. Way early.
2:07
Like 8 a.m. my time. I'm like, ah, I
2:10
can't fall asleep. Oh god, clowns will
2:13
eat me. So, yeah, here we are.
2:14
>> I love that reference. Uh, joining us as
2:17
always is the the one that tries to keep
2:19
us in check and in line, Liz Harper. How
2:21
you doing, Liz?
2:22
>> Uh, trust me, keeping y'all in check
2:23
does not work.
2:25
>> Say, Liz is Liz is so sublevel the most
2:29
diabolical person here. Like, y'all
2:32
pretend that Liz is some kind of school
2:34
major. Oh, Liz has got a demonic mind
2:37
and can very easily throw everything
2:39
into chaos at the moment she
2:41
>> I I have earned uh what we call Liz
2:44
sounds uh in person. So, yes, I'm aware
2:46
that there's a there's a there is a
2:49
potential uh yeah, I I see the danger.
2:52
Uh not dangerous uh or at least not
2:56
dangerous in that way. I don't think
2:57
Phil's going to hurt us. Phil, how you
2:59
doing?
3:00
>> Yeah, I think uh I think I'm fairly uh
3:02
non-lethal. Uh good.
3:04
Uh, not eating hot wings. Man, that
3:06
would ruin me for the rest of the day
3:08
doing that for breakfast. Wow.
3:10
>> Capsation. Capsation is good for your uh
3:13
your humors apparently. There's a
3:15
there's an actual like correlation
3:16
between it and health benefits, which I
3:18
think is wild. So,
3:20
>> yeah, it's not it's not great to to go
3:22
nuts with it. I don't do it every day or
3:24
anything, but I I have noticed that it
3:26
helps me um what's the right word? It
3:29
helps me not have that winter nose
3:32
thing. Like I don't know if you guys get
3:34
it where you are,
3:35
>> but up here there's the winter nose,
3:37
which is like, oh, okay, my nose has
3:39
decided to just fauc it
3:41
>> as soon as I stepped outside.
3:43
>> Yep.
3:43
>> If if I use the hot if I'm eating hot
3:45
wings or whatever, uh I don't do that
3:47
because I've done it already. Like it's
3:50
happened in the house uh the second I
3:52
started eating because this this
3:53
particular stuff my wife bought me is
3:56
some crazy high number of skulls. It's
3:58
like 2.2 million. I can't use it very
4:01
often and I have to cut it with other
4:04
stuff. Like I can't just put it straight
4:06
on their thing and eat it. Um although
4:08
I'm getting better. I might be able to
4:09
do that in a month or two.
4:10
>> Um so yeah.
4:12
>> Well well I will say that while hot
4:14
sauce is not necessarily involved in
4:16
tabletop gaming, there are some
4:18
potential uh crossovers. Uh, we did at
4:21
one point talk about how KFC uh had a
4:24
TTRPG oneshot like thing that you could
4:28
you could download and and go and
4:29
McDonald's had one. Um, and I'm
4:32
confident that Frank's Red Hot or some
4:33
other hot sauce company will eventually
4:35
release one at some point because why
4:38
the heck not.
4:39
>> Um,
4:40
>> yeah. I mean, they did do the hot the,
4:42
you know, the hot um
4:44
>> will probably do it.
4:45
>> You guys remember those
4:46
>> hot jelly beans? Yep. that they they
4:48
were made by the people who normally
4:50
make, you know, sweet, tasty jelly
4:52
beans, you know, and I I have them, but
4:55
my wife didn't tell me that she got them
4:57
for me. She just kind of gave them to
4:59
me, and I didn't really pay attention.
5:01
So, I ate like the the the, you know,
5:04
Carolina, you know, Carolina Reaper one
5:06
first and and you'll remember that. I'll
5:10
say that. You will remember that for the
5:11
rest of your life. I could definitely
5:13
see putting that into a game, like
5:15
having people go, "Okay, yeah, here you
5:17
you you filled your save. Here's here's
5:19
the bean. You choose to eat it or not."
5:21
But
5:21
>> it's like it's like it's like it's like
5:22
dread but with hot wings.
5:27
>> Yeah, those jelly beans are awful. I
5:28
have a I follow a streamer who has that
5:30
as a sub incentive. Every x amount of
5:32
subs, she eats one of those beans.
5:34
There's kind of a guess which one she's
5:36
going to pull out of the jar. They sound
5:38
awful. They don't they they're very very
5:42
hot. They're very
5:43
>> Yeah. They're made with actual pepper
5:44
puree in the jelly bean. It's uh Yeah.
5:48
>> Yeah. Well, anyway, uh speaking of what
5:50
what's hot and what's not right now, uh
5:52
I do want to ask you guys uh what you're
5:54
reading or what you're playing and like
5:56
what you're getting into this week.
5:58
We'll start with Phil since you're the
5:59
last one that was
6:00
>> Oh my. Uh so uh some of my games have
6:03
unfortunately hit the delightful summer
6:05
scheduling wall where trying to get
6:07
adults together uh to do anything is the
6:09
best because you know it's summer. Uh
6:11
still got my uh weekly well bi-weekly
6:14
Fabula Ultimate game that's going
6:15
swimmingly. Um, and actually did just
6:19
get like this morning a uh uh so last
6:25
January maybe no this January uh the
6:29
Arcane Library the publishers of Shadow
6:31
Dark ran a big uh Kickstarter for their
6:34
uh I guess setting like an official
6:37
setting the Western Reaches uh two-part
6:39
book uh which collected all their
6:41
previous zenes uh and then expands on it
6:43
and then more into two uh two more
6:46
gigantic anktomes. Uh, the first half of
6:48
the Kickstarter just arrived in PDF
6:49
form, so I have the players guide to the
6:51
western reaches for Shadow Dark in my
6:52
hot little hands, and I've read about 20
6:54
pages. So, uh, looking forward to
6:57
producing that this weekend.
6:59
>> All right. Well, Matt, what do you got?
7:01
Well, um, first off, and this one is
7:04
kind of hard to remember because I I
7:07
keep picking up different versions of
7:08
it, but last week, um, I picked up the
7:11
Iron Kingdoms, uh, setting guide, for
7:14
lack of a better word, that it's the one
7:16
that's adapted to 5.5e.
7:18
And I don't actually like that it's
7:20
adapted to 5.5e, but also it you can't
7:24
tell that it's adapted to 5.5e.
7:28
It doesn't very there's very little
7:30
rules information in this thing. It's
7:32
mostly something we talked about I think
7:35
um I think at the last show we did we
7:37
talked a bit about how a lot of stuff
7:40
coming out from like you know from like
7:41
say Wizards of the Coast or whatever
7:43
isn't really like it's not like world
7:45
setting information. It's not a place to
7:48
run your adventures. It's just either
7:49
it's an adventure or it's just setting
7:52
it's just like crunch like you know
7:54
here's new character classes. Here's,
7:55
you know, you don't get a lot of like it
7:57
back in the day, you'd get like, you
7:59
know, the world of greyhawk guide or the
8:01
Forgotten Realms book. Even when they do
8:03
stuff like Forgotten Realm stuff
8:04
nowadays, it's it's like 50 to 75%
8:08
classes and crunch. This book is almost
8:10
all setting. There's almost nothing in
8:13
it that requires me to use any rule
8:15
system. I could run this on Gersps. I
8:18
could use draw steel. It really doesn't
8:20
matter. I've actually been looking at
8:21
draw steel. That's but that's so that's
8:23
the main thing in terms of TTRPGs I've
8:25
been doing. I've been you know my usual
8:27
like you know obsessive watch and
8:29
rewatch of Godzilla movies. Um my
8:32
obsessive love for dinosaurs stuff like
8:35
that. That's all still there. But oh and
8:37
I and this one is nothing to do with
8:39
anything but it caused me to ask a
8:42
question that we might talk about today.
8:43
So I'll just mention it. I finally
8:46
killed tier 10 to Torment 10 Meisto and
8:50
and got through the last thing in in uh
8:53
Diablo 4, which immediately got me
8:55
thinking about how would I run this as a
8:58
TTP RPG because that always happens.
9:00
Like I'm always trying to figure out how
9:02
I was going to run it as a TTRPG, which
9:03
is led me to the thing I put on the the
9:05
list if we do it.
9:06
>> Liz,
9:07
>> I have just been having a a sci-fi
9:10
moment over here. I'm reading a lot of
9:11
sci-fi and I've been digging into the uh
9:15
Star Trek Adventures second edition core
9:17
rule book and thinking about running a
9:19
Star Trek game. I've I've run some
9:21
Starfinder and we've played some
9:23
Starfinder on the show before, but the
9:24
Piso games are like slightly crunchier
9:28
than my brain enjoys in Star Trek
9:30
Adventure as is uh Medifius's 2D20
9:34
system and a little I don't know, it's a
9:37
little easier for me to wrap my head
9:38
around. So, I've been reading this and
9:41
just just trying to, you know, if
9:44
there's any core Liz thing out there, it
9:46
is Star Trek. It is Star Trek through
9:48
and through. That is that is that that
9:50
is me. So, it's kind of I I'm just
9:53
really excited about the thought of
9:55
maybe I'll run a Star Trek Adventures
9:56
game, but it's also just just kind of
9:58
overwhelming and intimidating sitting
10:00
here and thinking about all the things
10:03
that are possible if I have Star Trek in
10:06
my hands. And it's uh it's pretty
10:10
exciting. I don't know. I don't know if
10:11
I'm going to do that or when I'm going
10:12
to do that, but maybe. And as to as to
10:16
games to play, I don't have any regular
10:18
games. They've all kind of everything is
10:19
kind of falling apart. So, yeah, here we
10:22
are. Here we are.
10:24
>> That's fair. Uh I mean, I know I don't
10:26
want to speak for everybody, but I would
10:27
be super interested in even like a Star
10:30
Trek one shot. I love Star Trek and I
10:32
think that it is a tabletop game that
10:35
has never really gotten a lot of love
10:37
from a wider audience than than I think
10:39
it should have. Uh I think it's always
10:41
been overshadowed in the tabletop space
10:43
by like Star Wars, which I think is a
10:45
shame.
10:45
>> Yeah.
10:46
>> And it's been like that ever since like
10:48
the '9s, like when there when both
10:50
existed in the original like D6 uh TTRP
10:54
uh space. Uh Star Wars always got way
10:57
more attention than Star Trek, but the
10:58
Star Trek one was really really great.
11:00
Uh it actually like Phil and may and
11:04
Matt will probably maybe um but it
11:06
actually used like the Napoleonic naval
11:08
rules for like ship combat and stuff
11:11
like that. Like it was
11:12
>> eventually became Starfleet Battles the
11:14
video game. It was literally just fat,
11:16
you know, folded and just wait till the
11:19
game.
11:19
>> Yeah. I I also want to say, Liz, I've
11:22
played in that game like Star Star
11:25
Adventures.
11:26
>> It runs real smooth.
11:28
>> It's very It was easy to to play in.
11:31
>> Um I'll tell you right now, I played a
11:33
Gorn and this was before they brought
11:35
them back in in Strange New Worlds. So,
11:38
I was playing a Gorn based entirely on
11:40
the original um you know, show. So, I
11:43
was basically just wandering around just
11:45
going this is the entire time except I
11:48
actually I spoke because I know it
11:50
bothers people. But yeah, it's a great
11:52
it's a great
11:53
>> and and I also I started I was thinking
11:56
about this and I just started watching
11:58
Next Generation from the beginning
11:59
because that is that's my formative Star
12:01
Trek experience and there this is still
12:04
so good. I mean I know Next Next
12:06
Generation has rough spots but man it is
12:09
so good.
12:10
>> Yeah.
12:10
>> So good.
12:11
>> Yeah. I I I was going to say I just
12:13
started re-watching from toos because I
12:16
I own them all on DVD.
12:18
>> Um
12:19
>> so I just started going back through
12:20
because it's like well I'm just going to
12:22
do this I I do it once every few years
12:24
just to refresh the uh the brain
12:26
commitment.
12:27
>> Uh but I also use and we talk about this
12:29
sometimes and and maybe this is like I'm
12:32
sliding into oped territory. Um
12:35
>> pop culture really informs a lot of what
12:37
you do sometimes in tabletop games. It's
12:40
really hard to avoid that. Um, you are
12:42
shaped by the things that you consume,
12:44
right? So, we're talking about consuming
12:46
Star Trek. The number of games that I
12:48
have incorporated random things from
12:50
like Star Trek and and comic books and
12:53
stuff like that from is not an
12:55
insignificant number. Um, and with, and
12:59
I mentioned this before, I feel like
13:00
there's a swing in the, uh, tabletop
13:03
space back towards sci-fi recently, uh,
13:06
with, you know, Pathfinder to, you know,
13:08
the the Star Trek Doom, um, and like in
13:12
in just like sci-fi in general where
13:15
even the fantasy stuff is starting to
13:17
like creep in with that that sci-fi,
13:19
their sci-fi elements to it, which we're
13:21
going to talk about later with a couple
13:22
of the uh, news items. And so I started
13:25
going back through some of my favorite
13:26
sci-fi stuff. Like I just got done
13:28
re-watching Johnny Nemonic or um it it's
13:32
it's not a good movie, but it is a fun
13:35
movie. Dayshift. Uh which is basically
13:38
cyberpunk before Cyberpunk as far as
13:41
like it's like, hey, we wanted this to
13:42
be a cyberpunk movie, but we couldn't
13:44
get the rights for it, so we just let
13:45
Will Smith do what he wanted. Um again,
13:48
it's not a good movie, but it's a fun
13:50
movie. Um stuff like that. like and I
13:52
started going through just to kind of
13:54
get my brain ready for it because I know
13:55
what's going to happen is I'm either
13:57
going to play in or run a sci-fi game at
14:00
some point in the near future and I want
14:03
to be in that headsp space instead of
14:05
the, you know, Arththeran high fantasy
14:07
type stuff. So, but that's kind of what
14:09
I've been doing. And then also uh it's a
14:12
new magic release. So I've been dealing
14:14
with that over the last course of uh the
14:17
last several weeks which is always fun
14:19
because I'm a judge which means I have
14:20
to know all the rules that how all the
14:22
mechanics work. Uh so that's great and
14:24
uh exhausting. So that's where my time
14:26
but I guess let let's slide over into
14:28
that oped stuff I guess. And what is
14:32
what is some of the favorite things that
14:34
you've done over the years that are
14:36
directly like you it's not even so much
14:39
as the serial numbers are filed off but
14:41
they're smudged from pop culture. Uh
14:43
we'll start with
14:44
>> I I made you guys all run through
14:47
Blackwing Lair.
14:49
>> Yeah, that's true.
14:51
>> You were all like, "This sounds really
14:53
familiar." I'm like, "Yeah, it's cuz
14:54
it's Blackwing Lair. I just put it in
14:56
the game." Um, in terms of science
14:59
fiction stuff since we were talking
15:00
about that though, uh, one of my
15:02
favorite, and this was a really
15:04
relatively long running game. This was
15:06
like two years, uh, going back. Wow. Um,
15:11
let's just say if it was a human child
15:13
distance, they could vote and and drink
15:16
in every American state. So, you you
15:18
know, kudos to how long ago this was.
15:21
But we played a Star Wars game for like
15:24
two years.
15:26
And in that Star Wars game, the amount
15:28
of times I ended up in something from a
15:30
Star Trek episode was like 20. Like we
15:34
we got to a planet where all these
15:37
miners were missing and there was this
15:39
monster that was eating them. And it
15:42
turned out that the monster was just
15:43
trying to protect its eggs. And I
15:45
literally turned and to Will, his name
15:47
was Will, and said, "That's the hoa. You
15:50
put the hoarder in this." And he just
15:52
he's I don't know what you're talking
15:54
about. I'm like, "F you." Just because
15:56
I'm the only one here besides you who's
15:57
watched the original series doesn't mean
15:59
you can put the hoard in it. And you
16:02
know, so yeah, that that happened. And I
16:05
I appreciated it even as that kind of
16:07
frustrated me because I'm like, you
16:09
know, everyone else thinks this is your
16:11
original idea. I know that that this is
16:14
Spock's brain. You did Spock's brain
16:17
because you could get away with it
16:18
because they're a droid. Like, I know
16:20
this is Spock's brain. You're not
16:22
getting away with Spock's brain on my
16:24
watch, buddy. So, yeah, I I've had that
16:26
experience quite a few times in my life
16:28
of people doing that. I've done it. Um I
16:31
think I I remember putting like an
16:33
entire group of people on like a flying
16:36
pirate ship uh that was basically just
16:40
stealing like uh it was it was a
16:43
Japanese anime about a battleship.
16:47
Oh, I can't remember the name, but it
16:50
was like they were like they were going
16:53
from one place to another.
16:55
>> Thank you. Yeah. And and luckily you
16:57
guys didn't realize I was doing it.
16:59
>> Who says we didn't?
17:00
>> Oh, okay. You didn't you you didn't say
17:03
anything. So,
17:04
>> well, yeah, cuz you don't like in the
17:06
moment like I have a I have a fast rule.
17:09
I am I am very good at ruining things
17:11
and therefore if I think that what me
17:14
calling something out or highlighting
17:15
something is going to ruin something, I
17:17
keep my yap shut.
17:20
>> But regardless, yeah, I did that and I
17:22
was I was proud of that. So that those
17:23
are mine that I'm going to
17:24
>> Phil. What about you? Um I have a few
17:26
recent examples, I guess. Uh one was uh
17:29
all from all actually from the uh the
17:32
game that I've mentioned that I'm
17:33
running a few times. Uh, I have sort of
17:36
um I so people who are familiar with the
17:39
video game Vampire Survivors know that
17:41
it famously does not have a plot,
17:44
but there are a lot of interesting
17:46
characters and there are like hints at
17:48
backstory that maybe exists only in the
17:50
developer head.
17:51
>> Um, I've famously lifted entire
17:53
characters from that and they kind of
17:55
extrapolated on that to build arcs uh
17:57
for R of Heb. I don't think my players
18:00
have realized it yet because they don't
18:03
uh don't play it, which is always fun.
18:05
Drawing from sources that your players
18:06
don't know is almost as fun as once they
18:08
do, just because uh you know when they
18:11
do run into it later, they're like,
18:12
"Hey, I recognize this." Um I I tend to
18:17
mine other sources for names because I
18:19
always have problems naming things on
18:20
the spot. Um, so I actually have
18:24
actually I have a physical notebook that
18:25
I carry around uh containing names that
18:28
I've lifted from all sorts of other uh
18:31
uh pop culture um you know sources um
18:34
that I could reuse uh later on. For
18:37
example, um uh this is this is kind of a
18:40
weird one. Um the
18:44
so a lot of the characters in uh horse
18:47
racing gotcha game Uma Musum who are all
18:50
named after actual raceh horses in Japan
18:52
interestingly um also have kind of the
18:55
same naming scheme as a lot of uh Gundam
18:59
characters in that they're just kind of
19:00
weird nouns thrown together. Um, so, uh,
19:04
stealing horse names also turns out to
19:05
be really good to use for, um, uh, like
19:09
sci-fi or Mecca games. So, that's always
19:11
fun. Um, yeah, I just, you know,
19:14
whenever something Yeah. Whenever
19:16
something like this strikes my fancy, a
19:17
lot of it's usually named, but sometimes
19:19
it's like situations or just like
19:20
general plot lines. I feel like I can I
19:22
can lift that and adapt it. It'll be
19:23
fun. Um, I don't think I've ever done
19:27
this for D and D, weirdly enough. At
19:28
least not that I'm aware of. Um, also
19:31
I'm going to call out one real life one
19:34
here that got uh one of my that kind of
19:37
um disabled the game because my players
19:39
were busy laughing for 10 minutes. And
19:41
this may only make sense to uh people
19:44
who grew up in the in the '9s in the US
19:46
because it relies on a particular
19:48
commercial jingle. Um, so my players
19:51
reached a seaside town in Fabula Ultima
19:54
and that game famously uh so Fabula
19:57
Ultima is designed to emulate the JRPG
19:59
genre. um in play style uh and the kind
20:02
of stories it tells. And so one of the
20:04
things that is fairly popular in video
20:06
game RPGs is fishing mini games. And I
20:08
was like, we're going to reach the
20:09
seaside village. I'm going to have a
20:11
fishing miniame. Um and the guy who was
20:16
running it uh was a fairly
20:20
uh old salt of the sea sailor in like a
20:22
yellow slicker and hat. Uh and I
20:24
described him as uh having a very
20:26
trustworthy aura around him. and his
20:28
name was Gordon cuz you can trust.
20:29
>> I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I knew
20:32
it.
20:34
>> So, that's just a recent example. Yeah,
20:36
we had to stop the game for 10 minutes
20:37
after revealed that because somebody
20:40
literally fell out of their chair.
20:43
So, uh yeah. So, yeah, steal good
20:47
artists steal is how I would say.
20:50
>> Liz, do you have any? I really don't.
20:52
But it's like while you're consuming any
20:55
sort of media, it's everything sparks
20:58
ideas. And I think like the best
21:01
fiction, whether that's TV or books or
21:05
games, is always going to like spark
21:08
something in your head. I think the very
21:11
best stories are the ones where you read
21:13
it and you're like your brain is
21:14
immediately going, I want more stories
21:17
and coming up with other things that
21:19
might happen or fit into this universe.
21:22
So I I think it that's just kind of how
21:26
it works there. I don't want to say
21:29
there are no original stories, but it's
21:31
like everything you consume goes into
21:34
giving you ideas for other things.
21:36
You'll find even without realizing it,
21:38
things popping into games or little
21:41
ideas that were sparked from something
21:42
you read or something you watched and it
21:44
all it all comes together in this giant
21:47
we're we're here playing a regulated
21:50
version of Makebelie
21:52
>> and everything that goes into your head
21:54
comes out somewhere.
21:55
>> I will say the most egregious one that
21:57
I've ever uh been complicit in is I
22:00
literally just stuck my adventures in
22:02
the water temple from Ocarina of Time.
22:04
Um, it was
22:05
>> Oh god, I hope you gave them signposting
22:08
that that
22:08
>> Nope. Sure did not. I I was It was a It
22:11
was a punishment and nobody knew that I
22:13
like they did not realize that that's
22:15
what it was and that was the best part.
22:17
>> The only thing I could think of you
22:19
could have done the only thing I can
22:20
think of that you could have done that
22:21
would have been worse was putting the
22:22
Echo the Dolphin theme in there.
22:24
>> No. No, we weren't going to do that. We
22:27
were not going to do that.
22:28
>> The Water Temple. My god. Two. There's
22:31
like only two things I can think of in a
22:32
video game that ever traumatized me more
22:34
involving water.
22:36
>> Sonic the Hedgehog drowning.
22:38
>> Yep. Yep.
22:39
>> And and Echo the Dolphin just as a game.
22:41
But the Water Temple broke me.
22:43
>> It broke the point I just I had to just
22:46
go and sit like in with sad music
22:47
playing in the background that wasn't
22:49
actually playing. It was just in my
22:50
head. It was like, you know, Sar
22:51
Mclofflin in the arms of an angel. That
22:54
kind of thing. I was just sitting there
22:55
going, I can't get through this. I can't
22:57
get through this. This is just never
22:59
going to happen. Uh, phenomenal. Uh, but
23:02
I think that's going to do it for our
23:03
update. I want to move on to some news
23:04
here. And, uh, we've got quite a bit
23:06
that I want to cover. Uh, first we're
23:08
going to start with kind of I think it
23:09
might be the biggest biggest news. And,
23:12
um, some of the most I I don't want to
23:14
say difficult, but like for a lot of
23:16
people it was very surprising.
23:18
>> Uh, but it's Piso is in the middle of
23:21
restructuring at this point. Um, it is
23:26
just having to lay off. uh I think it
23:28
was only 12 people but Piso as a company
23:32
uh uh currently only has what so it had
23:36
sub 100 before this. So um and part of
23:40
this is because
23:41
>> 12 12 is a lot when it's not a huge
23:43
company.
23:44
>> Yeah. 12 12% is a lot when you have
23:46
nothing. And part of it is and and right
23:48
now if you try to look this up on their
23:50
website their official statement it is
23:52
down like the website is down. Um, but
23:56
they
23:56
>> according to Google, and keep in mind
24:00
it's Google, uh, but they had something
24:03
roughly 46 to 60 full-time staff.
24:06
>> Yeah. So, it's even more. Um,
24:08
>> so yeah,
24:09
>> and and this comes at a time where they
24:11
were because this this happens in
24:14
response to the uh fallout of Diamond
24:16
Comics and their bankruptcy because
24:19
Diamond was involved and people don't
24:21
didn't really we talked about this a
24:22
lot, but like
24:24
>> until I got into dealing with like
24:27
distributors and running a shop and and
24:29
like actually looking at how that works,
24:31
you don't realize how much goes through
24:33
very little. Um, and Diamond was a
24:36
bottleneck for a lot of things. Um, and
24:38
at this point, Piso has something like
24:41
10 million in just inventory,
24:44
uh, just laying in warehouses that can't
24:46
be shipped right now because of the the
24:47
the lawsuits and the the fall from the
24:49
bankruptcy of Diamond. And that's not an
24:52
number. Um it's it's scary uh especially
24:57
for those people and especially if you
25:00
are not when you think about it you you
25:03
you think okay yeah Wizards of the Coast
25:05
is the big the big dog right um and then
25:09
you a lot of people think that Piso is
25:11
the next largest one in a lot of ways it
25:13
is and even they're just absolutely
25:16
small so
25:16
>> it's kind of like if the big dog was say
25:19
a Irish wolf hound and the next biggest
25:22
dog was a a Chihuahua Malininoa cross
25:27
that took after the Chihuahua in terms
25:29
of scale because Piso not never has been
25:33
big that way. It just it had a lot of
25:36
reach because it was started by the
25:38
people who created third edition. Um it
25:40
had it had a lot of prestige, but it
25:43
didn't have numbers. Yeah, I was gonna
25:46
say there there's a little bit more to
25:48
it that I I want to talk about just real
25:50
quick because uh while this may change
25:53
uh as like the lawsuit goes on. Um
25:56
there's currently a very I mean bloody
26:00
legal fight is probably the best way to
26:02
put it. um about JP Morgan who JP Morgan
26:06
Chase who's the owner of the essentially
26:09
like the the Black Diamond uh or the
26:11
Diamonds uh like their what's left of
26:16
them the Husk I guess would be the best
26:17
way to put it.
26:18
>> Should we give maybe a 101 on what's
26:21
started this because we have talked
26:23
about Diamond Comics before but I don't
26:25
think we've uh kind of recapped what's
26:27
happened there for current listeners. Uh
26:31
yeah, we could do that. Uh they, for
26:35
lack of a better term, they wound up
26:36
just it it they wound up declaring
26:38
bankruptcy, right? They um Diamond has
26:42
never been a great uh company to work
26:45
with. They've always been really really
26:46
awful. Um, and in January of 2025, they
26:50
uh filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy
26:52
protection uh and then converted to a
26:54
chapter 7 full liquidation in December
26:57
of 2025, which means that they would
26:59
liquidate everything that was owned by
27:01
their estate uh in order to pay off
27:03
their debts and uh what they had for
27:06
outstanding. part of this
27:07
>> and that
27:08
>> Yeah, I was going to say the the the
27:10
part that gets murky and that's been
27:12
being and battled since then uh is that
27:15
they claimed that all inventory they had
27:18
which includes everything from companies
27:20
that was inside of their uh warehouses
27:23
that they don't own that they were
27:25
distributing on behalf of the companies
27:27
uh was their property and that they
27:30
could liquidate it to pay off their
27:32
debts um which I Eve uh was ruled
27:37
against and then the lender in this case
27:41
uh all of the lenders that they owe
27:42
money to are appealing the case which is
27:44
where we're currently at uh trying to
27:47
get that money from stuff that isn't
27:50
theirs essentially for
27:53
essentially committing legal theft. Um
27:56
and the worst part is is while this
27:58
lawsuit is going on and while the appeal
27:59
is going on, Piso cannot move to another
28:02
distributor. Which is why if you haven't
28:04
seen books that were supposed to be in
28:07
your local game stores or maybe shipped
28:09
to you uh you know for the last year uh
28:13
that you've been expecting from Piso,
28:15
that's why because they literally are
28:17
not allowed to move to another
28:18
distributor for that product. Uh I think
28:21
they have something in place for like
28:22
new production. Uh but yeah, anything
28:25
that's for the last 18 months that
28:27
that's been being held by Diamond. uh a
28:30
a a judge did finally terminate that
28:32
contract, but Diamond has now appealed
28:34
it. But then even if they get that
28:36
resolved, JP Morgan Chase has a lean on
28:39
10 million in PISO inventory currently
28:41
sitting in Diamond's warehouses.
28:42
>> Yeah.
28:43
>> Um so even if they get their contract uh
28:47
you know, if this appeal fails, then
28:49
they still have to uh you know,
28:52
>> go through the legal prove. Yeah, they
28:54
have to go through the legal process of
28:56
proving that it's their property and not
28:57
Diamonds
28:58
>> because Diamond is Diamond is based on
29:00
consignment. Basically, stuff goes to
29:02
their to Diamond's warehouse and then
29:03
they only get paid when the product
29:05
actually sells,
29:06
>> which is Diamond used to say that they
29:09
owned it
29:10
>> is what it amounted to,
29:11
>> which is the same thing that was
29:13
recently going on with that the the
29:14
whole Lego thing. If you've been
29:16
following the internet stuff, uh with
29:18
that whole consignment thing, uh
29:20
consignment is bad. There's a reason my
29:21
shop does not do consignment uh because
29:23
it is a legal nightmare even at a small
29:25
scale. Uh this is a large scale and it's
29:28
not just affecting uh Piso, it's also
29:31
affecting companies like Green Ronin uh
29:33
who also use Diamond and a lot of other
29:36
stuff a lot of other companies that had
29:37
their stuff just kind of held in there
29:39
and I and consider it. We we just talked
29:41
about this. Sorry. Go ahead, Liz.
29:42
>> And we haven't heard anything from Green
29:44
Ronin lately. I was actually looking to
29:46
see if Green Ronin had any recent
29:47
statements and they don't have anything
29:49
since late last year because they
29:52
actually had to crowdfund to pay legal
29:54
bills for this because they are in so
29:58
deep with books that were at Diamond and
30:00
Green Ronin is much smaller than Piso. I
30:03
don't know how many people are at Green
30:04
Ronin but they're smaller than Piso. I'm
30:08
seeing a Piso laying people off when
30:10
Piso is like the biggest small press. Uh
30:15
really worries me about some of the
30:16
other little guys. If Piso can't weather
30:19
this, then
30:20
>> Green Green
30:21
>> some people may go wonder.
30:22
>> Yeah, Green Ronin's like a dozen people
30:24
>> and their LinkedIn I just went and
30:27
looked at their LinkedIn. According to
30:28
their LinkedIn, they've cut 12
30:29
employees.
30:30
>> Um and and this is why like it's scary.
30:33
It's scary for these companies. And Liz
30:35
brought up a point that I was going to
30:36
get into, which is like these companies
30:37
can't pay for the legal battles. It's
30:39
not like if this were to happen to
30:41
Wizards, they've got Hasbro money behind
30:43
him. They've got more money to deal
30:45
with, right? They got lawyers on
30:46
retainer.
30:47
>> The rest of these companies don't, which
30:49
is why,
30:50
>> like we go back to when Wizards was
30:53
going to try to uh take the SRD and uh
30:56
make it so that nobody could use it
30:59
whatsoever as the basis of their games.
31:01
um that there was this huge coll
31:03
collaborative uh effort from all the
31:06
other companies to say what are you
31:08
doing because individually they couldn't
31:10
but they had to band together and in a
31:12
lot of this case they're doing the same
31:13
thing. It's it's not good. Um and again
31:17
all of it is perfectly and and and
31:21
angrily legal
31:23
um at least as far as what's going on.
31:25
So, it's going to be a long battle for
31:28
uh all of these companies and I feel
31:30
very bad for them and uh we will likely
31:33
be hurt from it as a result because uh
31:35
if these companies can't weather the
31:37
storm in whatever capacity then they're
31:39
going to go away which means some of our
31:40
games might uh no longer being
31:42
available. I don't know if anybody else
31:44
has anything else to add to that. Uh it
31:45
is a rather sad one and we're we can
31:48
moved on to a few other things uh that
31:50
maybe hopefully will be a little bit
31:52
lighter. All I have to say on this is
31:53
that it is one of the situations where
31:55
if you like a role playing game that is
31:58
published by a smaller press, you should
32:00
be looking into this because it is it is
32:04
there's like hundreds of of publishing
32:08
entities that are being hit by this. Not
32:10
just little ones like these either.
32:13
Marvel and DC comics are affected by
32:16
this. We I I can tell you that we have
32:19
not had a full shipment of comics since
32:22
this happened. Every single week
32:24
something is delayed because they've had
32:26
to reprint stuff that Diamond has and
32:28
and it's been a cascade for over a year.
32:31
It's It's rough. And and Marvel's got
32:34
Disney money behind it and even they're
32:36
struggling with with the legal. Go
32:37
figure.
32:38
>> Well, JP Morgan also has money. So, it's
32:40
one of those situations where it's kind
32:43
of a let them fight except that
32:45
unfortunately we're the ones who get
32:47
crushed. The the smaller presses and
32:49
people who are, you know, enthusiasts
32:51
are the ones who can't do anything.
32:55
>> Yeah, it the the big boys are the kaiju,
32:57
the small companies are basically the
32:59
military and we are the civilians.
33:00
That's that's the way I'm looking at it.
33:02
Um but yeah, let's move on to some other
33:04
stuff. Um, uh, let's start with, uh, I
33:08
think the some D and D news because
33:10
there's actually quite a bit of it. Some
33:11
fifth edition or five 5.5e, uh, stuff
33:14
that I think is really neat. Uh, one,
33:17
we're finally getting updated reference
33:18
cards, which I think is been promised
33:21
years ago, but is actually happening
33:22
now. Uh, reference cards for games are
33:26
really, really good. And if you've
33:27
played like Dagger Heart or if you've
33:29
played even the the older versions of
33:31
fifth edition, cards can make stuff a
33:34
lot easier to know what you have
33:35
available to you and then like flipping
33:37
them over or going through them as
33:38
opposed to just having everything laid
33:40
out on a multi-page character sheet and
33:41
having to read very tiny lines to uh so
33:44
getting new reference cards for spells,
33:46
magic items, and monsters. Very, very
33:48
useful uh potential good tool for you to
33:51
run your game or character. What do you
33:53
guys think? I mean, I immediately
33:54
thought about Daggerheart when I heard
33:56
about these because Daggerheart was
33:58
heavy on cards for kind of class
34:01
building and abilities.
34:03
And I just recently went through a
34:06
Kickstarter to do a card pack. So, you
34:09
would have a pack of cards that has all
34:11
of the stuff you need for your class.
34:13
You know, you want to play a class, you
34:15
could buy a pack of cards. It would have
34:16
all of your spells and abilities in
34:17
there for easy character building and
34:20
reference and you didn't have to buy a
34:22
whole big rule book if you just knew ah
34:24
this is what I want to play. I'm just
34:25
going to get this one pack of cards and
34:27
it's going to have everything I need in
34:28
there. Uh so yes, it is it it I'm not
34:33
sure if this is D and D looking at what
34:35
other people are doing because there are
34:37
also 5e cards made by third parties to
34:41
to have this EVC reference. So, is it is
34:43
this Wizards the Coast looking and
34:45
saying, "Hey, other people are doing
34:46
this successfully. We should do it,
34:47
too." Or is it like going back to things
34:50
they they used to do?
34:52
>> I think it's going both.
34:53
>> I think it's going back because uh Matt
34:55
and Phil, fourth edition, right? Like
34:57
fourth edition was very heavy on cards.
34:59
>> Uh fifth edition also had them, but
35:00
mostly only for spells and they haven't
35:02
been updated since 2014. So,
35:04
>> to see a return there.
35:06
>> Yeah, they did it for the original
35:07
release and then kind of forgot they had
35:09
them.
35:10
Yeah, I literally have the bar deck
35:11
sitting next to me right now.
35:12
>> Yeah, the one I would really like to the
35:14
game I would really like to see do this
35:15
and I don't know if they can't have the
35:17
budget for it because again everything
35:18
we're talking about with small
35:19
companies, but um I would really love to
35:21
see this for Draw Steel.
35:23
>> Yes.
35:23
>> Um as as fourth edition inspired as this
35:27
is and also as we experienced from
35:30
playing, you know, an arc of it um how
35:33
many abilities characters have at first
35:36
level. Um, I would love to be able to
35:39
have somebody have a little thing of
35:41
cards and go, "Here is what you can do."
35:44
Like, I would love to have that. Um, so,
35:48
uh, other companies, take notes,
35:49
reference cards, rule. Uh, let's get
35:51
more of them.
35:52
>> Uh, matter Liz.
35:54
>> I think Liz made a point already. Um,
35:56
and I I pretty much was just like, Liz's
35:59
point. So, yeah, basically.
36:01
>> All right. Uh, also we did get a updated
36:04
uh Unear Arcana uh which was just
36:07
recently released I think last week uh
36:09
with revised villainous subasses. Uh so
36:13
these are the subasses that are more
36:15
like for evil campaigns uh or campaigns
36:19
that skew into the gray area. So, like
36:21
you have your uh your circle of titans
36:23
druid, your hell fighter or hell knight
36:26
fighters, uh your demonic sorcerers,
36:30
uh your and I think that's it for this
36:32
one. Plus, there's epic boons and feats.
36:35
>> Uh which is really cool. It's
36:36
interesting to see that they're
36:37
branching into between this and the
36:42
other stuff. It really does make me feel
36:44
like Dark Sun's coming this year or very
36:46
very soon. Um because a lot of these
36:48
were stuff that you saw back then,
36:50
right? like a lot of these are things
36:52
from that era, but it's it's interesting
36:54
to see them willingly going back to
36:56
these uh because it's not something I
36:58
would have expected to see pop up again.
37:00
And I think that's really neat. What do
37:02
you guys think?
37:03
>> I'm I just sometimes I feel like they
37:05
declare something villainous and I'm I'm
37:07
reading it going, "Where's the villain?"
37:10
The Circle of Titans Druid just seems
37:12
like, yeah, that's reasonable. Yeah, I
37:15
don't I don't get what the problem is.
37:17
Uh
37:18
obviously Hell Knight that's that's
37:20
something that has come up again and
37:22
again and again and there always going
37:23
to be another different version of what
37:25
is basically the anti-paladin the
37:28
>> Knight of Evil. Um I don't have a
37:31
problem with that. I just I feel like to
37:33
a certain degree
37:35
>> they need to actually release something
37:38
that that actually uses this. You know
37:40
what I mean? Like they just did the
37:41
Ravenloft thing and I felt like that
37:43
would have been a really good time for
37:45
some of these. Does that make sense?
37:47
Ravenloft actually had some of the
37:50
previous unear classes we'd seen in
37:52
unear.com like the reanimator artificer
37:56
was in there which I thought was a
37:57
really uh fun angle on the artificer but
38:00
yeah you're right I mean you could you
38:02
don't have to play these as villains
38:04
these are not necessarily villainous
38:06
quotes subasses I like the description
38:10
of the circle of the titan droid like
38:12
you were saying when civilization
38:14
violates the natural world by
38:15
deforesting ancient groves, polluting
38:17
sacred waters or hunting wildlife to the
38:20
brink of extinction. Druids of the
38:21
circle of the Titan intervene. Druids of
38:24
this order believe that for nature to
38:26
thrive, society must sometimes fall. And
38:30
you know, you can see that. And that is
38:32
a that's a killer story hook. That's
38:35
just a great story hook to go in there
38:37
with.
38:37
>> That's very
38:39
Yeah, this is so so I really like this
38:42
and I agree with you, Matt. These aren't
38:44
necessarily evil. You could lean into
38:47
this and play it evil. Play as someone
38:49
who's extremely against society and
38:52
wants it to fall, but you could also
38:54
say, "Okay,
38:55
>> I do the hard thing because I must be
38:57
dead."
38:57
>> Yeah. And you've you've polluted the
38:59
sacred river or whatever, and you are
39:01
going to suffer for it.
39:03
>> Like, I'm very sorry to inform you that
39:05
you have pushed me well past the point
39:09
where I can restrain myself. So, here
39:11
comes death.
39:14
I'm sorry. But even it doesn't even have
39:16
to be like that. You could like totally
39:18
approach it as like if you've ever like
39:21
heard about wildlife, you know, wildlife
39:23
management in like national parks.
39:25
Sometimes they have calls. I can imagine
39:27
the circle of this Titans Drew just
39:29
being like, you know, it's unfortunate,
39:31
but in order to preserve all this stuff
39:34
that needs that, you know, our
39:35
ecosystem, I'm going to have to call
39:37
these people or get them to leave. I
39:40
don't care which, but something's going
39:43
to happen. I I don't, you know, again,
39:45
sure, if you take it to extremes, you
39:48
know, they're villainous, but you could
39:50
totally play the Circle Titan Druids so
39:51
many different ways. Like, what if you
39:54
were just monkey wrenching, you know,
39:56
like, you know, it's a fantasy setting,
39:58
but you could still basically be monkey
39:59
wrenching it. like, you know, people
40:01
come out to settle this area and you're
40:02
like, "Crops aren't going to grow and
40:04
I'm going to make big monsters walk
40:06
through your your town over and over
40:08
again until you leave." If you attack
40:11
the big monsters, that's on you. They're
40:13
not attacking you until you attack them.
40:16
But once you do attack them, I'm not
40:18
going to stop them. Heck, I'm gonna help
40:20
them because you shouldn't be here, you
40:23
know? And and that's not villainous. it
40:25
it might be considered, you know,
40:28
reactionary, but it's there's just lots
40:30
of different ways it could be done. And
40:32
and I just I look at it and I actually
40:34
really like the Circle of Titans Druid.
40:36
Um I I feel like the Hell Knight needs a
40:39
little bit more flavor before I'm
40:40
actually interested in it. I don't know
40:42
how to put it. Like it just I have seen
40:44
this so many times that it really needs
40:46
to be something else before I'm I'm
40:48
excited. But you know, they can't all be
40:52
the reanimator. Come on. The reanimator
40:54
is That was so good.
40:55
>> That's kind of hard. That's kind of
40:56
hard.
40:56
>> Pretty spectacular. Yeah.
40:58
>> Yeah. Uh yeah. Any other parting
41:00
thoughts before I move on?
41:01
>> Uh if if the Hell Knight had existed
41:02
when Balders's Gate 3 came out, I could
41:04
see this easily being Will's class
41:06
instead of him being a warlock.
41:09
>> Yeah, it would have made more sense.
41:11
>> I mean, weapon packed warlock this not.
41:15
>> Yeah. And they they get they are
41:16
described in some places as like let's
41:18
see transactional relationships.
41:20
Sometimes devils use them as bounty
41:22
hunters for those who got like
41:23
contracts. Like that sounds like the
41:24
kind of thing that Bizora was getting
41:25
him to do. Anyway, so
41:26
>> uh rolling on with the the D&Desque news
41:30
here. Uh here's one that I did not see
41:32
coming out of left field, which I think
41:33
is interesting. Uh Vampire the
41:35
Masquerade uh is going to have some 5.5e
41:40
compatible crossover products coming to
41:42
D and D Beyond later this year. Uh it's
41:45
there's not a whole lot of information
41:47
available to it, which raises some
41:48
interesting questions. Uh, but Bound by
41:51
Blood, uh, will be available later this
41:53
year, published by Ghostfire Gaming. Uh,
41:55
we think it's under some licensing
41:57
agreement, but we don't know. Um, it's
41:59
going to contain a new Kindred class,
42:01
uh, for 5.5e, which is a reference to,
42:04
uh, how World of Darkness refers to
42:06
vampires. They are kindred. Uh, and a
42:08
full Dark Ages adventure, which is also
42:11
really fascinating because we talked
42:13
about Vampire the Masquerade a lot. We
42:15
did an entire episode of of of Lore
42:17
Watch on this. Um, but we didn't talk
42:20
about Vampire of the Dark Ages, which uh
42:23
is essentially their fantasy equivalent
42:26
uh to Vampire the Masquerade that
42:27
existed in parallel with Vampire the
42:29
Masquerade uh and in a lot of ways laid
42:31
down some of the major events that would
42:33
be translated into cornerstones
42:36
uh for the masquerade itself. Uh, so we
42:39
haven't had anything come out for new
42:42
for the dark ages in a very very very
42:43
long time aside from I think the book of
42:45
nod technically counts for both games
42:47
but tenuous. Um, and it's very
42:51
interesting to see this because again,
42:54
uh, we don't know about the relationship
42:56
between Ghostfire Gaming and Whitewolf,
42:58
which owns World of Darkness, but we do
42:59
know that Whitewolf has been beefing up
43:02
its TTRPG studio, uh, to get more
43:05
production out and more like just
43:07
consistent production out, uh, including
43:10
hiring away people from Hasbro and Watsi
43:13
and Dn D to join their teams. Uh, and we
43:16
know that they use Renegade Games to
43:19
publish their games um along, you know,
43:23
all of their games as well. So, it's
43:25
it's interesting to see this because we
43:27
don't know if it's going to have
43:28
anything outside of that that uh, you
43:31
know, window of opportunity or what's
43:34
going on. I I'm very curious about it.
43:38
Uh, I don't know how you guys feel.
43:39
>> I mean, I'm Well, Go ahead, Liz. And you
43:42
don't have very long to wait because
43:44
this is supposedly coming in July 2026.
43:47
>> Yeah. With play testing agenda.
43:49
>> I think it's interesting. They've done
43:50
this kind of thing before. Um I don't
43:53
know if you guys remember when they did
43:54
their they basically started a three a
43:57
third edition publishing house and then
44:00
they licensed uh both vampire, werewolf,
44:03
and mage I think to Gersps of all
44:06
things.
44:06
>> A mage as well.
44:08
>> Yeah. So, I I remember actually playing
44:12
Werewolf in Gersps before I played
44:15
Werewolf,
44:17
you know, because I didn't I didn't know
44:19
anyone who wanted to run the storyteller
44:21
system, but I knew a lot of people who
44:23
were playing games with Gersps, and so I
44:25
ended up playing it in that. So, it's
44:27
interesting to see them try it again,
44:28
this time with the biggest uh dog in the
44:31
pound, so to speak. Uh it we'll see what
44:34
happens. We'll see if it's an actual
44:36
We'll see how involved Whitewolf/
44:39
uh I don't even remember who owns them
44:40
anymore. Uh but we'll see how involved
44:43
they actually are in it.
44:44
>> Well, I mean the the the the hire that
44:47
they pulled from uh like Hasbro uh Jess
44:51
Lenzillow is working on this. So it is
44:56
it it's got direct inter like
44:57
interaction. So this may be what you
45:00
said it may be a third party publisher
45:01
that or or are bringing into the fold.
45:04
that's working on this particular line
45:05
of products. Um, but it also the timing
45:08
is really good too. And I just going
45:09
back to what Liz was talking about
45:10
earlier. Uh, the Ravenloft book just
45:13
came out. We've seen D&D start taking a
45:16
a darker tone for a lot of the future
45:19
products that are coming out. Uh, this
45:21
is perfect timing, right? This is
45:23
perfect timing for that sort of relaunch
45:24
or rebranding. Um, so really cool at
45:29
least as far as I'm concerned.
45:30
>> Also, I'm going to throw this in there.
45:32
There was a period of time in which the
45:34
only licensed uh the only Raven Loft
45:37
product you could get was a licensed
45:39
White Wolf production. Uh White Wolf put
45:41
out Ravenloft. I I have their rule book.
45:44
Um I picked that up way back when and so
45:47
that's that's there has always been an
45:51
influence on White Wolf from Ravenloft.
45:54
They always it's just always been there.
45:56
So I wouldn't be surprised that that was
45:58
somewhat involved in their
46:00
decision-making process.
46:01
>> Yeah. Nothing's coincidental. Uh, Phil,
46:03
do you have any thoughts on it?
46:05
>> Uh, nope. I'm just uh having flashbacks
46:07
to that time that they let Money Cook
46:09
write a D20 World of Darkness crossover
46:11
thing back in like 2007 or whatever it
46:13
was.
46:14
>> I'm sure that's not related at all.
46:18
>> And uh the game the game is being
46:20
developed by Ghostfire Gaming, which uh
46:23
does Grim Hollow.
46:24
>> Yes, I forgot about Grim Hollow. Good
46:26
catch.
46:27
>> Yeah. Uh, but it's also again not the
46:29
only 5.5e uh news we have cuz there's
46:32
yet another one uh that this also
46:35
surprised the ever loving heck out of
46:37
me. Uh, which Renegade, the studios
46:40
behind the Transformers, G.I. Joe and
46:42
Power Rangers TTRP are working on a
46:45
second edition of the game using the
46:47
5.5E rule set completely getting rid of
46:51
the Essence D20 system. I am shocked it
46:56
took this long and I am a thousand% sure
46:59
that this is probably coming with
47:01
pressure from Hasbro to make them use
47:05
the system cuz now these things have
47:06
been wildly successful. So now Hasbro is
47:08
interested in that. Uh so I'm curious
47:11
now that we found out that it's good.
47:14
>> People like it. It must be molded into
47:16
whatever we say it should be. I renegade
47:18
Renegade Rene Renegade apparently
47:20
clarified after people were asking why
47:22
they were doing this and apparently
47:24
Essence 20 system sales were
47:26
insufficient to continue developing that
47:28
system.
47:29
>> So I guess they're kind of hoping that
47:31
switching over to 5.5 will give them,
47:33
you know, more sales.
47:35
>> I I I'm going to question that. Go
47:38
ahead, Liz. I I I mean I do see how this
47:41
could be a purely
47:45
practical thing because uh a lot of
47:49
people know 5e. That's the biggest
47:51
advantage of 5e is how many people are
47:54
already familiar with it in some base
47:56
way. 5e is easy to pick up and there's a
47:59
great chance that a lot of players who
48:02
are interested in these games already
48:04
know enough about it to jump in and play
48:06
a game. When you're trying to sell
48:08
people on a new system, that's always
48:10
going to be harder than saying, "Hey,
48:13
look over here. We can play a 5e game.
48:16
You already know the basic rules and
48:18
we're just going to get started." So, I
48:20
can see that. But, yes, the fact that
48:22
Hasbro has its has its hands on all
48:24
these properties is a little weird.
48:27
These are not the only games that
48:29
Renegade makes or the only games on the
48:31
Essence 20 system. Uh, Renegade is also
48:34
working on the dungeon crawler Carl
48:37
game.
48:38
>> So,
48:39
where where is that going? Was that
48:42
>> I have a theory and I I I am not basing
48:45
this on anything besides anecdotal
48:46
information that I have from ordering
48:48
and looking at distributors and things
48:52
like that. Transformers, G.I. Joe, and
48:53
Power Rangers are always sold out at my
48:55
distributors, period. Um, it is I do not
48:59
think it is a sales availability thing.
49:02
these games are popular. Um, I think
49:04
that the sales number being referenced
49:06
might be, and again, this is just a
49:10
theory and speculation, that might be
49:12
the conversation that Hasbro had with
49:13
them, your sales numbers are not what we
49:15
want for it, and therefore you are in
49:18
danger of losing your right to this
49:20
unless you do this thing. And I I would
49:23
not be surprised if that has something
49:24
to do with it. That said, it is not
49:27
necessarily a bad thing. like you
49:28
pointed out, people are familiar with
49:30
the 5.5e system. It also means that if
49:34
you wanted to have Power Rangers show up
49:36
in, you know, Forgotten Realms, you
49:38
could at that point. Um, but it makes
49:41
for an easier transition and it does
49:42
introduce those to more people. Uh, so
49:45
we'll see how that works out. Any other
49:48
thoughts? I do think it's interesting
49:51
that we're seeing a couple of games just
49:53
right here, just right here this month
49:54
that we're talking about that are
49:57
transitioning to 5e because we have had
50:00
it feels like we've had sort of an
50:02
explosion of content the transitioning
50:06
away from 5e particularly after the
50:10
whole,
50:12
you know, D&D trying to to pry the the
50:15
SRD back from the community that we had
50:19
this moment where people were like
50:20
moving to other systems or looking at
50:24
more third party games and now it feels
50:26
like is there are we rebounding from
50:28
that
50:30
and of course we have seen Dn D itself
50:33
kind of embrace this if you look at D
50:35
and D beyond it's not just Wizards of
50:37
the Coast content they've brought in a
50:40
lot of third-party content obviously
50:42
we're seeing this World of Darkness game
50:44
coming out soon and so they've kind of
50:47
it's an interesting ing rebound. And I
50:49
think there are good things about this
50:51
and there are concerning things about
50:52
this because of course everyone using
50:54
5e, people publishing on DND Beyond that
50:57
puts more control in Hasbro's hands and
51:00
we have seen that Hasbro isn't always
51:02
the best steward of its own properties.
51:05
So I we'll just see. We'll see what
51:07
happens next. And of course Renegade has
51:10
a lot of other games that do run on
51:12
Essence 20. So
51:14
>> are those abandoned games? Were those
51:16
gone? They've got I don't know. I see.
51:18
And that's the thing. I don't I I would
51:19
be very surprised if those games are
51:21
gone, but we're going to have to keep an
51:22
eye on it because I want to revisit this
51:24
in a few months and see what the status
51:26
of those games are because I play a lot
51:28
of those games and a lot of them are
51:30
very um
51:31
>> Yeah. Uh I think we should move on to
51:34
maybe the last one here that I think I I
51:36
believe Matt added this. Uh because
51:38
speaking of games disappearing,
51:41
uh Glass Cannon was the publisher that
51:43
was going to work on the Diablo TTRP. Um
51:48
and uh I believe the first was supposed
51:50
to be that it was there was going to be
51:52
a Kickstarter launch in Q4 of 2025. Uh
51:56
we are now in Q2
51:59
3 of 2026.
52:01
>> I am very certain this started in 2024
52:04
and they've pushed the date. They pushed
52:05
the date. They pushed the date. Now,
52:07
they just they haven't updated it from
52:08
2025 at this point, but it's
52:12
>> part of the reason that I threw this on
52:14
there was I was looking at their website
52:16
and they've been updating the board
52:20
games that they work on and they are
52:22
primarily a board game publisher. They
52:24
have like I think five board games and
52:26
this uh I'm not saying that this is dead
52:30
um because we can't really know. And
52:32
also, as Liz has pointed out in in chat,
52:36
we do talk about this every other month.
52:38
It's true that we do, but the reason I'm
52:41
I'm bringing it up is with the
52:43
instability going on everywhere else in
52:45
the hobby, when a when a game company
52:48
gets a property this big and doesn't use
52:52
that, they're not they're not even like
52:55
there's no sizzle. There's no, you know,
52:58
here's a thing we're working on. There's
53:00
nothing. It's complete radio silence.
53:02
And I find myself wondering if this is
53:04
gonna be like Go ahead.
53:06
>> I was gonna say, and it's also not just
53:07
the TTRPG. They have the rights for the
53:09
Diablo board game as well, because like
53:11
you said, they're a board game company.
53:13
>> Uh they're they're the people behind
53:15
Don't Starve the board game. They're the
53:16
folks that are behind Apex Legends, the
53:18
board game, Frost Punk,
53:19
>> the board game, Dying Light, the board
53:21
game. They're very adept at uh video
53:24
gameto board game transition. Um, but
53:27
yeah, like again you like you said it's
53:30
been radio silence. Like had I not
53:32
looked up on their website that they're
53:35
going to be doing the Diablo board game,
53:37
I would have completely forgotten that
53:38
like this was a footnote from two years
53:40
ago, right?
53:41
>> Yeah.
53:41
>> Yeah. And it's a big license to be just
53:44
sitting there. Uh I don't, you know, I
53:47
don't know if there's any particular
53:49
reason for that other than the hobby is
53:51
where it is right now. Um, I don't know
53:54
if it's just a case of, you know, we're
53:56
not going to do anything until we've got
53:58
this thing nailed down. Um, quite
54:01
frankly, I don't know if it's that
54:02
they've decided to use a different
54:04
system. I know nothing. Uh, but I do
54:07
think it is bizarre that every time
54:09
Diablo as a licensed property seems to
54:11
be going somewhere, the thing dies.
54:14
>> Comic book.
54:15
>> Um, comic book. Yeah.
54:17
>> TV show.
54:19
>> Yeah. Go ahead.
54:20
>> Yeah. I mean, it did it did feel like
54:22
they had a product here and they were
54:23
going to launch it on Kickstarter. A
54:25
product on Kickstarter. I I wouldn't
54:27
exactly say it's no risk, but there's a
54:31
lower risk to launching a product in
54:34
this way because you're getting a lot of
54:35
funding in advance. You're proving
54:37
there's interest in the product in
54:38
advance. And the fact that they never
54:40
even launched their Kickstarter, I'm I'm
54:42
almost certain they started talking
54:44
about they planned the Kickstarter for
54:46
2024. They did because we joke we've
54:49
joked about this before that the website
54:50
used to say that the Kickstarter
54:51
launched in 2024 and then in 2025 all
54:54
they did was update it to say the
54:56
Kickstarter launches in Q4 2025 and then
54:58
they have not changed it again.
55:01
>> Yeah. Like I'm I'm waiting for the Q4
55:03
2026 announcement day.
55:05
>> Yeah. The fact that they haven't even
55:08
updated their website to say 2026 is I I
55:11
don't we're going to see this game. And
55:13
also like looking at their their
55:15
Kickstarter like they have a lot of
55:18
people following it.
55:20
>> Yeah.
55:20
>> Like it's got people saying we will give
55:23
you money and they're not taking the
55:25
money. That is the star in the RPG
55:28
field. Most people if they've got a
55:30
crowdfunding thing going and they know
55:32
people will give them money, they'll
55:34
open it
55:35
>> just to get the money so they can pay
55:38
people,
55:39
>> you know, because that's kind of the
55:41
thing. I I'm just that's all I didn't I
55:44
don't want to get too further into this
55:45
because we do have other couple other
55:46
things we might might want to talk about
55:48
briefly. I just feel like at this point
55:50
is this thing dead? I I I'm going
55:52
basically just kind of trying to get
55:54
somebody out there in the world to go
55:56
>> yes it's dead or no it isn't. I just I
55:58
just like to hear something.
56:00
>> Somebody
56:01
just tracked down John Harper at Jen Con
56:03
and asked him he's supposedly one of the
56:04
dream team working on the rules. See if
56:06
he knows anything.
56:07
>> Go forth. I the the fact that um you
56:13
know they've had this Kickstarter
56:14
landing page for like three years now
56:17
that says launching soon.
56:19
That is not that's not a good sign. And
56:21
I do wonder if this is Blizzard related
56:24
because we have seen Diablo projects
56:27
with third parties fall apart for no
56:30
obvious reason. They just they're
56:32
announced and then they go nowhere.
56:33
>> Yeah. The the biggest problem that you
56:35
have when you're licensing an IP, and
56:36
you see it in the tabletop space a lot,
56:38
and it extends to a lot of other things,
56:40
is that the IP holder has a lot of
56:43
rights. And one of the things I I'll
56:45
bring up as a really like recent example
56:47
is like Magic the Gathering and all of
56:50
the universes beyond stuff they're
56:51
doing. Hasbro is a gigantic company with
56:54
a ton of money behind it at this point.
56:56
They are a juggernaut in the space, but
56:58
even they are beholden to the IP holders
57:01
of whatever they do. Case in point, when
57:03
they did the original Spider-Man uh
57:06
Marvel uh Magic the Gathering set, they
57:09
couldn't digitize the cards because
57:10
there was an exclusivity contract in
57:12
place with Second Breakfast for Marvel
57:14
Snap. Uh that has since been worked out,
57:17
but they literally could not put them
57:19
into their own product as the cars they
57:22
had produced because of that contract.
57:24
And the IP holder is like, "We're not
57:26
violating the contract. you are
57:27
following this um or uh the Lord of the
57:31
Rings, the estate of Tolken uh with the
57:34
products that they put out, they are
57:36
hyper specific about what they are are
57:38
and are not allowed to put in for
57:40
literary references uh to the cards and
57:43
they have to review them before they are
57:45
even allowed to be sent to artists for
57:47
work. like IP holders hold a lot of
57:50
power. And in this particular case,
57:53
yeah, Activision, Blizzard, Microsoft
57:55
owns the Diablo IP and they're going to
57:58
be able to pull their weight around and
57:59
say, "You get to do what we want to do
58:01
when we want to do it." So, you're kind
58:02
of beholden to them. What do you guys
58:04
think? Anything else?
58:05
>> I think I said my bet.
58:06
>> Uh, I think we'll go on to some lighter
58:09
stuff. Uh, and then we'll call it there,
58:11
which I just, uh, we we generally look
58:13
at some crowdfunding stuff that we are
58:14
generally interested in. Um, and I'll
58:17
let Matt talk about something that I
58:18
know he's excited about first because I
58:20
I think I think Matt likes
58:22
>> Yes, Matt does like masks. Um, however,
58:25
I can't get too excited because as you
58:27
pointed out that all we know is that
58:29
it's happening. So, basically, just
58:31
imagine that meme of the guy going,
58:35
"It's happening." That's me. That's me
58:37
with masks. I'm waving a giant mask
58:40
going, "It's happening." That's it. I
58:43
got nothing. I can't tell you anything.
58:45
They're doing it. Yay. I hope they go
58:48
big with um I think one of the things
58:50
about masks is that at present it is
58:54
very spread out. There's a lot of
58:56
different books and they're not like a
58:59
two-play masks you almost have to like
59:01
go and get three or four different
59:02
products and kind of like bring them
59:03
together yourself. I think for the
59:05
second edition they should be collecting
59:07
that stuff together and making sure it's
59:09
all in place. Uh, and also I think they
59:12
should be like learning from the other
59:15
Kickstarters they've done, including one
59:17
of the biggest ones in the universe, the
59:19
the Avatar one. I don't for a second
59:21
think that Mass is going to get that
59:23
kind of response, but I think that that
59:24
book should have taught them a lot about
59:27
how to produce one of these, how how to
59:30
lay them out, how to make them, you
59:32
know, useful to to a player. I I feel
59:35
like there's a lot of potential there
59:36
because masks already kind of has that
59:39
with like we talking before about the
59:41
cards uh that they're bringing out for
59:45
uh D and D and how they've already had
59:46
them for a lot of other games. I think
59:49
the the way that the books work for
59:51
Masks, the way that they'll have the
59:53
character book and it just kind of tells
59:54
you everything you need to know to run
59:56
this character. I think that that's
59:58
>> Yeah, the playbooks. It's a good way to
1:00:00
go. Um because it's powered by the
1:00:02
apocalypse. It's a it's a pretty
1:00:04
flexible and and robust system without a
1:00:07
ton of complications.
1:00:09
So, I feel like this is a good time to
1:00:12
get Masks in shape to make a real push
1:00:15
to take what I think is kind of its
1:00:17
rightful place in the in the TTRPG
1:00:19
sphere. I feel like this is the game for
1:00:23
like we've seen like other games.
1:00:25
Paragons has came out recently. Paragons
1:00:27
is very much a teen superhero/animeesque
1:00:31
thing. I'm I'm reading through it. I'm
1:00:32
like, Masks should be taking these
1:00:34
people's lunch. And not in a bad way.
1:00:37
I'm not mad at them. I think Paragons is
1:00:39
good. But Masks definitely has a role to
1:00:42
play in this sphere.
1:00:43
>> Yeah.
1:00:43
>> Of just just being such a good superhero
1:00:47
RPG. Not not a generalized one, but a a
1:00:49
specific one. Go ahead. and and and the
1:00:51
playbook aspect of it for being a
1:00:52
superhero RPG, I think really lends well
1:00:54
to it or what it should be as far as
1:00:57
really showing showcasing like how niche
1:01:00
you can get with like and we we when we
1:01:02
did our live play uh I played a custom
1:01:05
playbook um that I found from that was
1:01:08
fan-made, right? Uh there is a catalog
1:01:11
of hundreds and I mean literally
1:01:14
hundreds of fan-made playbooks that
1:01:17
cover everything from oh do you want to
1:01:19
play Sora from Kingdom Hearts? We got a
1:01:22
playbook for that. Uh you want to play
1:01:24
the Hulk? We got a playbook for that.
1:01:26
You want to play Hulkling? We got a
1:01:27
playbook for that. Uh people go out of
1:01:29
their way to find the things that they
1:01:30
love the most and convert it to this
1:01:34
system and it works which really like
1:01:37
masks is so robust and so versatile that
1:01:40
it's easy to do versus uh and we're
1:01:43
going to talk about mutants and
1:01:44
masterminds here in a second. um like
1:01:47
systems like that where you can do that
1:01:50
but it gets a little more complicated
1:01:52
and because there are so many mechanics
1:01:54
and rules it not that it's impossible
1:01:58
but it sort of just becomes a more
1:02:01
daunting if that makes sense. What do
1:02:02
you guys think? You excited for masks
1:02:04
second edition Liz Phil?
1:02:05
>> I I love masks. I am on paper as a known
1:02:08
masks stand. Mark it down. Um, I find it
1:02:12
hard to get too excited about this
1:02:14
Kickstarter at the present time for a
1:02:16
few reasons. One, they are already on
1:02:19
the hook for two other large
1:02:20
Kickstarters that they need to produce.
1:02:22
>> Oh, yes.
1:02:23
>> Uh, the they need Fall in London is
1:02:26
still in development process like Liz
1:02:28
has talked about.
1:02:29
>> Fall in London,
1:02:30
>> getting getting the PDF and it's missing
1:02:32
things like the character creation
1:02:34
rules.
1:02:34
>> Um, and then Tim is also out there too,
1:02:38
right? Uh yes, Timmer was just uh I
1:02:41
believe that one just wrapped up this
1:02:42
year. Fall in London's about a year ago.
1:02:44
But
1:02:45
>> Magpie, this is this is a Magpie Games.
1:02:49
Um
1:02:50
>> I I feel like they have a good track
1:02:51
record on Kickstarters. I mean, it's not
1:02:53
like the Kickstarter launches and it you
1:02:55
get a game tomorrow, but they you
1:02:58
eventually get something and it's good.
1:03:00
>> I'm actually g There's actually a few
1:03:01
counterpoints to that. One, Magpie is
1:03:03
eight Magpie is eight people for one
1:03:05
thing.
1:03:05
>> Yeah. Um, two, they actually just are
1:03:08
taking kind of a hit reputationally
1:03:10
right now. Uh, the cartel Kickstarter,
1:03:12
which predates 2020, uh, finally just
1:03:16
came out and said, "Hey, we're not
1:03:17
publishing the last few stretch goals."
1:03:18
Um, people aren't even getting PDFs of
1:03:20
them at this point, including ones that
1:03:22
have been play tested. Um, like they're
1:03:24
just scrapping the rest of the cartel
1:03:26
stretch goals. Um, and also, uh, Urban
1:03:30
Shadows is still not finished because
1:03:32
when Magpie got that Avatar license,
1:03:34
they literally dropped everything else
1:03:35
to work on Avatar. Um, they we were
1:03:39
talking about, you know, Hasbro is the
1:03:41
800 pound gorilla in the room. Piso is
1:03:43
small with 40 people. And then, uh, we
1:03:46
saying Green Ronin has 12 people on
1:03:48
staff.
1:03:49
>> I think Magpie Magpie is eight people.
1:03:51
Um, the Piso the Piso layoffs at Magpie
1:03:54
would devastate the company, for
1:03:56
example. Um,
1:03:56
>> well, yeah. I mean, our layout is two
1:03:59
magpies.
1:04:00
>> And I just really worry at this point
1:04:02
that yes, they make really cool polished
1:04:04
products and they're really fun. They're
1:04:06
usually really fun to play, but they
1:04:08
also
1:04:09
really have a habit of biting up more
1:04:11
than they can chew. Like, if they
1:04:13
launched a m a mask Kickstarter this
1:04:15
year, I wouldn't expect a product out of
1:04:17
it until 2028. That's just where that's
1:04:19
just the time scale Magpie works on. So
1:04:21
yes, I might be a little optimistic just
1:04:24
because
1:04:25
>> I am concept.
1:04:27
>> Yeah, I am conceptually excited for
1:04:29
masks. Um I am leerary of Magpie
1:04:31
Kickstarters is I'll say
1:04:33
>> I will say I will say that generally
1:04:35
when I go into a Kickstarter if I if
1:04:37
it's for something like this like I I
1:04:39
definitely backed like Magpie most of
1:04:41
their Kickstarters. I'm I'm definitely
1:04:42
one of those people um just because I
1:04:45
know I I will get the product even if
1:04:48
it's not like in the timeline that I
1:04:49
want. Um, and as a store runner, I do
1:04:53
the same thing because Magpie is one or
1:04:55
the few company that when they do a
1:04:57
Kickstarter, they usually have a
1:04:58
retailer tier, which a lot of uh the
1:05:01
smaller companies just don't even bother
1:05:02
with. Um, which I I give them credit for
1:05:05
it, but I also don't expect the stre
1:05:08
like, this may be a weird thing to say.
1:05:10
I just never expect stretch goals. Um,
1:05:12
and maybe that's my mentality because
1:05:14
stretch goals are not what I'm paying
1:05:16
and they're nice to haves. So, like, and
1:05:17
I know people are upset by it, but also
1:05:19
it's like for me personally, it's like
1:05:21
if I don't get all the stretch goals, it
1:05:23
it is what it is. Um, did I get what I
1:05:25
paid for or what I backed? Did I get the
1:05:27
everything that came at the tier that I
1:05:29
gave them money for? Is it in good
1:05:31
condition? Is it good quality? Then I'm
1:05:33
good to go. Um, and yes, there are eight
1:05:36
people uh that run this company and make
1:05:39
this product. Uh, which is absolutely
1:05:41
insane, especially considering the
1:05:43
quality of the products that they put
1:05:45
out. like that is that is absolutely
1:05:47
obscene for that quality. So just just
1:05:50
my two cents on that.
1:05:52
>> And the great news is uh if you if you
1:05:54
are excited about Mask 2, you can just
1:05:56
go get Masks. It's a fantastic game.
1:05:58
>> Yeah.
1:05:59
>> Uh Absolutely.
1:06:01
>> Yeah. It doesn't I think you can
1:06:03
probably pick up all the Masks books for
1:06:04
way less than for about the price of a D
1:06:06
and D corset and you can tell some
1:06:08
really fantastic teen superhero stories
1:06:10
like we've done in the past on Tavern
1:06:12
Watch. Go listen to them.
1:06:14
>> Yeah. I wrote music.
1:06:16
>> I I will straight up say that I I to
1:06:18
this day miss the masks campaign that we
1:06:21
came up with. It was just one shot, but
1:06:24
man, it was fun. Uh I still miss playing
1:06:27
those characters. I especially liked
1:06:29
like Liz's character who was just like,
1:06:32
"Okay, I'm going to be positive about
1:06:33
this even though I think you guys are
1:06:35
all insane." Um
1:06:38
>> that's just me. That's just me, man.
1:06:40
>> Oh man. I I can't believe I completely
1:06:42
forgot that actually should have been
1:06:44
back in the op-ed. I straight up stole
1:06:45
something from Final Fantasy 14 for that
1:06:47
one shot. Um the the scene of Matt's
1:06:51
character's father attempting to punch
1:06:54
through the giant mirror that was being
1:06:55
used as an interdimensional portal is
1:06:57
used at stolen directly from a boss
1:06:59
transition in Final Fantasy 14.
1:07:01
>> Yeah.
1:07:01
>> Oh, I thought you were I thought you
1:07:02
were stealing from DC Comics with Super
1:07:05
Boy Prime punching reality.
1:07:07
>> Yeah, Super Boy Prime was in there, too.
1:07:09
But no, it's the it's the Neo it's the
1:07:10
Neoex death fight transition from Final
1:07:13
Fantasy 14. I I was just like I don't
1:07:17
know why I was stuck on that particular
1:07:19
scene and then I I I actually kind of
1:07:21
extrapolated backwards and forwards from
1:07:23
there to get everything like everything
1:07:25
was built on wanting that one scene. So
1:07:28
there's a fun tidbit for you.
1:07:29
>> Yeah.
1:07:30
>> One thing I want to say about Magpie is
1:07:32
their Kickstarters recently have been
1:07:34
licensed products. They've got they had
1:07:37
Avatar. They've had Fall in London.
1:07:39
They've had uh Timar is the most recent
1:07:41
one. And Masks is one of their own
1:07:43
games. Yes. This is this is not a third
1:07:46
party. This is them. So I I'm sure that
1:07:49
has some some appeal. And of course,
1:07:51
Masks is a decade old at this point. And
1:07:54
you know, you can there's always some
1:07:56
dusting off you can do on
1:07:58
>> especially especially when you consider
1:08:00
things like uh I mean how many superhero
1:08:02
games are just releasing right now too,
1:08:04
right? like keeping it updated, keeping
1:08:06
it fresh, and especially like if they're
1:08:08
going to incorporate uh new playbooks or
1:08:11
fan-made playbooks. Uh that's probably
1:08:13
good, too. And also, we've talked about
1:08:14
this before, Blades in the Dark, uh
1:08:18
really pushed the Apocalypse system into
1:08:20
its own thing, which is why it's now the
1:08:21
Blade System. Uh and it's one of those
1:08:24
things where they can probably take a
1:08:26
look at some of that stuff and look at
1:08:28
how it moved and transitioned and why
1:08:30
people like it and maybe update those
1:08:32
sensibilities. And they also have more
1:08:35
under their belt now, especially when in
1:08:37
terms of like one of the things that's a
1:08:39
key component of masks is you're you're
1:08:43
basically you're coming of age. You're
1:08:45
you're a teenager essentially going
1:08:46
through all the turmoils of it which
1:08:48
involves a lot of interpersonal play and
1:08:50
a lot of interpersonal like reactionary
1:08:52
stuff. Forming friendships, rivalries,
1:08:56
being burned, being emotionally
1:08:57
unstable, etc., etc., etc. They
1:08:59
literally perfected that system in
1:09:01
Avatar, right? So mask and I said this
1:09:04
at the time when we were talking about
1:09:05
Avatar and and like reading through the
1:09:07
Avatar books, the system in Avatar and
1:09:09
we interviewed uh Brandon for from
1:09:12
Magpie, one of the things I I like Matt
1:09:14
pointed out and I pointed out is that
1:09:17
that Avatar system of balance is
1:09:19
basically a more refined version of
1:09:21
masks. And like I could see them going,
1:09:24
"Yes, this is now a more refined version
1:09:26
of your balance now incorporated into
1:09:28
masks." So I'm here for it. There
1:09:31
there's a lot here. Yeah. Um, and then I
1:09:33
just want to mention this real quick and
1:09:34
then I think we're almost out of time.
1:09:36
Speaking of superheroes, uh, Mut Mutants
1:09:38
and Masterminds, which is one of the
1:09:40
OGs, uh, as far as superhero TTRPGs go,
1:09:43
created by Green Ronin, uh, really came
1:09:45
to prominence during the third edition
1:09:48
uh, days of D&D. Uh, is now on Backer
1:09:52
Kit with getting their official uh,
1:09:55
systems module now digitized to Foundry
1:09:58
Virtual Tabletop, uh, which is really,
1:10:00
really cool. They're working with
1:10:01
Immersive Realms to get that up there.
1:10:03
Uh, looks like they've already hit their
1:10:05
goal, uh, with, you know, plenty of time
1:10:09
left, which is great because one of the
1:10:11
things I will say is that I think this
1:10:13
is exactly the tabletop game that
1:10:16
benefits from virtual tools and table.
1:10:18
Even when we were running it back in the
1:10:20
day of third edition, uh we we
1:10:22
essentially figured out ways to hack the
1:10:24
D and D3 tools and 3.5 tools that came
1:10:27
on a CDROM that you had to load onto
1:10:29
your computer in order to do the mutants
1:10:31
and mastermind stuff because it was
1:10:32
insane to keep track of on paper by so
1:10:35
>> or just you know I knew people whose
1:10:37
Excel skills grew magnificently trying
1:10:40
to make that thing make sense.
1:10:41
>> I know people that got jobs because of
1:10:43
that.
1:10:44
>> Yeah, I I I love mutants and masterminds
1:10:46
and I still do. I mean, I've actually
1:10:49
got my name on a product from them. I I
1:10:51
straight up
1:10:52
>> You do. I'm very I'm very happy.
1:10:53
>> No, no, I'm just saying I'm just saying
1:10:54
that I do love them, but at the same
1:10:56
time, they are very much a descendant of
1:11:00
two different systems and they brought
1:11:02
the complexity of both.
1:11:04
>> Yeah.
1:11:05
>> Like it's so obviously
1:11:07
trying to be champions and the hero
1:11:10
system that there's no point in arguing
1:11:12
and they're trying to do it via a a
1:11:15
version of D20. And it's just like they
1:11:18
brought all that complexity. And I'm
1:11:21
seeing stuff in the in the new
1:11:22
Kickstarter where they're they're
1:11:23
pairing it down and making it possible
1:11:26
to do it different ways. They have like
1:11:29
straight up almost playbooks.
1:11:31
Uh they're literally just almost swiping
1:11:33
playbooks from uh from from uh Power by
1:11:37
the Apocalypse. So that's all great and
1:11:38
I'm happy. But at the same time, I I
1:11:41
want to see it. Yeah. You know what I
1:11:43
mean? I I just I am curious about it.
1:11:46
But I am glad that they're still doing
1:11:47
it and it's it's it's funding because
1:11:50
quite frankly Liz was talking earlier
1:11:52
about Green Ronin. This is Green Ronin.
1:11:54
So if this is going well, at least we
1:11:56
know Green Ronin's still doing
1:11:57
something.
1:11:58
>> Yeah. Green Ronin Green Ronin Games is
1:12:00
still still kicking and uh like still
1:12:03
doing stuff. And Mutants and Masterminds
1:12:04
is probably one of their
1:12:06
>> if not the uh most uh like flagship of
1:12:11
products. Uh, but they also do they have
1:12:13
the Fantasy Age core rule book which
1:12:15
just came out April of this year of
1:12:18
2026. Uh, with Valiant Adventures RPG
1:12:21
coming out this month uh, as of the time
1:12:24
of the recording, June 2020. Um, with so
1:12:27
they're they're definitely putting stuff
1:12:28
out. It's just not it's not with the
1:12:30
frequency or fanfare of the other
1:12:32
publishers.
1:12:34
>> I'm just glad to see it because they
1:12:35
took a massive hit when Diamond did all
1:12:39
the horrible things that they did. They
1:12:40
did
1:12:41
>> and and as we pointed out earlier, this
1:12:43
is 12 people. This is only only slightly
1:12:46
bigger than Magpie. So, that kind of
1:12:49
beating was something that I'm just glad
1:12:52
to see they're still working.
1:12:53
>> Yeah. And and they do other stuff like I
1:12:54
think the expanse is under them as well.
1:12:56
Like they've they've got they've got
1:12:58
some some stuff under them. But again,
1:13:00
I'm with you. I'm glad to see that
1:13:02
they're they're still kicking because
1:13:04
competition and variety is good and
1:13:07
smaller companies make more interesting
1:13:09
games because they are often more
1:13:12
willing to take risks than the larger
1:13:14
companies are. Um Hasbro, Wizards of the
1:13:17
Coast, like we talked about earlier,
1:13:19
it's interesting that they're moving
1:13:21
into a darker space because it means
1:13:24
that they see that it is not necessarily
1:13:26
uncertain threat that they thought it
1:13:28
was before. Uh, but the fact that it
1:13:30
took this long since fifth edition
1:13:32
released for us to get updated uh,
1:13:34
Ravenloft because curse of Strad has not
1:13:36
updated Ravenloft. I don't care what
1:13:38
anybody says. I will argue that book is
1:13:39
being terrible. Um, and like moving into
1:13:42
stuff like Dark Sun and some of the
1:13:44
darker subasses potentially is new new
1:13:48
territory that Hasbro and Wizards has
1:13:50
not wanted to tread before cuz it wasn't
1:13:52
safe and now they feel it's safe enough.
1:13:54
Whereas smaller companies are willing to
1:13:56
take way more risks. um and throw stuff
1:14:00
out there and see what sticks because
1:14:01
they've got nothing to lose. I mean,
1:14:02
they go back to their day jobs
1:14:04
essentially in a lot of So, but I think
1:14:06
that's going to do it for us today
1:14:07
unless you guys have anything else you
1:14:08
want to add. All right. Well, Blizzard
1:14:10
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that, friends, we'll see you next time.

Bad players get sent to the Water Temple

blizzardwatch.com

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Bad players get sent to the Water Temple

blizzardwatch.com