Up next in 10
Lore Watch Podcast starts off with a dive into the lore of the Midsummer Fire Festival, particularly since so much was added over the past few years. How has this little event about a melting ice stone grown to reflect the culture of fire and summer in the different races?
Then, we go back to the Shadowlands for the rest of the podcast. We start with actually getting there. If we were the only Maw Walker, why is there a whole portal in our capital cities for any rando to traipse into Oribos? As long as we're in Oribos, let's chat First Ones. What do we know about them, exactly? How has the lore we know about them changed what we used to think we know about Azeroth?
We wrap it up by touching a figurative third rail: what would it take to make it feel like Sylvanas coming back was earned, and not a "somehow, Palapatine returned" cop out?
Subscribe to Lore Watch in your podcast player for more video game lore:
RSS: https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/6556539150cd070012089193
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lore-watch-podcast/id1023224738
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1CIJRbwbEVQfCg8r94HCwO
Visit us at https://blizzardwatch.com for the latest news on Blizzard games, and don't forget to subscribe on Patreon to support our efforts! https://www.patreon.com/blizzardwatch
Discord: https://discord.gg/MY9p4d7t8U
Bluesky: @blizzardwatch.com
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:04
[music]
0:10
>> Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a
0:12
roundtable free form discussion about
0:13
learning your favorite media. I'm your
0:15
host Joe Perez, one of several lore
0:17
focused folks, and I've got two
0:18
stupendous co-hosts with me today.
0:20
First, you know him, you'll love him. He
0:22
screams in barbarian rage and joy all at
0:25
the same time. It's Matt Rossi. How you
0:27
doing, Matt?
0:30
>> Scream of joy and rage at the same time.
0:32
I'm fine.
0:35
>> And then you also know him. He is our
0:37
our regular third chair, and we were
0:39
very glad to have him. Eric Odey, how
0:41
you doing, Eric?
0:42
>> I'm good. I just I'm trying to keep up
0:44
with you guys in the Diablo stuff, so I
0:46
just finished Diablo 1. I assume that
0:48
I'm like most of the way up to wherever
0:50
Diablo is now, but I played a sorcerer,
0:52
and it was good.
0:53
>> You know, you're not far off.
0:55
>> [laughter]
0:56
[gasps]
0:57
>> Can't be that much more.
0:59
>> Well, I don't know that we'll be talking
1:00
a lot about Diablo today, but instead
1:02
we're going to be answering some
1:03
questions from you, our wonderful
1:05
listeners at home. If you have questions
1:08
for this or any of our podcasts, want
1:10
you to go ahead and send those in to
1:11
1:13
Specify the show that it is for as well
1:15
as any special pronunciation of your
1:16
name. Uh if you want to hit us up on
1:18
Discord, we have the Q&A podcast
1:20
questions channel open for everyone.
1:22
Same rules apply as sending an email.
1:24
And if you are a Patreon subscriber, we
1:25
have the Patreon Q&A podcast questions
1:27
channel set aside specifically for those
1:30
Patreon subscribers, where we look first
1:33
as a way of saying thank you for helping
1:34
us keep the lights on.
1:36
Without further ado, in this uh we're
1:38
going to get into the first question,
1:39
which is from KTsStories,
1:41
which is I'd be super curious to see
1:43
what you make of the new lore introduced
1:45
in the Midsummer Flying Quests this
1:47
year.
1:48
I thought there were a couple of
1:49
interesting things in there.
1:50
And for this, I'm going to hopefully
1:52
look at Eric, who I think is the only
1:54
one of us that has really done any of
1:56
that. So, Eric,
1:57
lay it on us. What are the What are What
1:59
are the What are the implications here?
2:01
>> Uh so, it was some pretty cool
2:04
low-stakes history from a couple of the,
2:09
you know, groups that we usually hear
2:10
from in midsummer.
2:13
Um with like, you know, get the Earthan
2:14
Ring, you get Shamans, it's fire, it's
2:17
elemental. Um
2:18
And there was some flying around the
2:22
continents and catching some of the, you
2:25
know, fire flowers and gathering some of
2:27
the currency for the transmog, which is
2:30
obviously why I was doing it in the
2:31
first place, for the transmog. But, um
2:34
you know, more than the usual like, "Oh,
2:36
hey, somebody needs you down in
2:39
Tanaris." Um
2:41
and then you put the fire out and then
2:42
they're like, "Okay, now move on." It
2:44
was like the story as you go and you're
2:47
recreating for the Taran, it was like
2:50
recreating the
2:51
um
2:53
kind of like heading home from the
2:55
migra- the migration, heading home.
2:57
Yeah.
2:59
The They lived in a lot of different
3:00
places and they would kind of follow
3:03
the, you know, do the flames as they
3:05
would go home.
3:07
Um and it's crazy because the stories
3:09
they're telling are not like, you know,
3:11
we've been in this universe for a long
3:12
time. We've been playing going all the
3:14
way back to the first Warcraft. It's
3:16
decades, but these stories are hundreds,
3:18
maybe thousands of years old. So, it's
3:20
like before any of the conflicts that
3:24
have been going on lately, like back
3:26
when like the Taran the They're like,
3:28
"Yep, so then we headed up into
3:30
Ashenvale and that's, you know, night
3:32
elf territory." Um but they were cool
3:34
and they were like, "What's up? We'll
3:36
show you like some of the stuff around
3:37
here." And it's like surprising, but
3:38
it's like it's it's not
3:40
it's not like the last 20 years where
3:42
it's tense. Like a thousand years ago,
3:45
it was probably, you know, they had
3:47
their own things going on and there was
3:49
no war on Azeroth that was, uh you know,
3:53
causing them to maybe be as
3:56
less welcoming.
3:57
Um
3:58
but yeah, just those those little
4:01
tidbits like
4:03
um they're in Tanaris and it's like,
4:04
"Oh, wow, they came from the desert."
4:05
It's like, "Nope, it was a lush place
4:08
when it was our original homeland." It's
4:09
like, "Oh, wow, yeah." So, stuff changes
4:12
over the course of, you know, we've seen
4:15
zones change over the course of days in
4:19
World of Warcraft, but also um yeah,
4:22
just throwing in a little bit of
4:23
history. Um the humans and the dwarves
4:25
on the other side in the Eastern Kingdom
4:28
um just kind of telling the story of
4:30
their Midsummer Festival
4:33
their celebration. And it turns out like
4:35
after the dwarves summoned Ragnaros,
4:38
they kind of the dwarves kind of like
4:40
stopped that. It was a little bit like
4:41
somebody was like, "Should we light the
4:43
Midsummer bonfire now?" And another
4:45
dwarf was like, "Dude, too soon. Too
4:47
soon."
4:49
And uh
4:50
it slowly it kind of just came back.
4:51
Like somebody in Redridge Mountains,
4:53
eventually Lakeshire was like, "We're
4:55
going to honor the flame like we always
4:56
have." It spread again through the other
4:58
lands. The the summer celebrations, they
5:02
say they they predate some of the oldest
5:04
kingdoms. They tie into the relationship
5:06
with the dwarves. They So, like the
5:07
stuff goes back thousands of years, but
5:09
it's not required. It's nothing that we
5:12
need to talk about on this podcast cuz
5:14
it changes everything. It's not
5:16
revelations. It's just really cool
5:18
flavor that fills in something. And I
5:21
thought it was really well done to kind
5:22
of tie it to a holiday and tie it to a
5:26
character that's talking about history
5:27
that's not Bran who's frantically trying
5:30
to figure things out or Lorewalker Cho
5:32
who's like the only other one that's
5:35
talking about stuff that happened before
5:37
a couple years ago. Um it was just, you
5:40
know, the story of the dwarves following
5:43
this shooting star around and going from
5:45
one place to another and finding the
5:48
griffins. Um
5:50
I I thought it was cool. And you get
5:51
some currency and you get some transmog.
5:54
>> So, the things I was reading about it,
5:56
and I didn't get to experience it, was
5:57
that with the it was part of the the
5:59
dwarf stuff was specifically the
6:01
Wildhammer migration. Uh and it was
6:04
tracing the discovery of griffins and
6:07
the journey of the early uh sages
6:09
tracking the fiery dwarf star, which
6:11
then led them to Grim Batol, which turns
6:13
out that fiery dwarf star was fire
6:15
elemental, which I thought was a really
6:16
cool little touch. It ties it back to
6:18
Grim Batol, ties it back to the the
6:20
split of the the dwarves and sort of
6:22
that whole thing, and uh
6:25
just basically everything in between. I
6:26
thought that was a really cool little
6:28
thing. Um the other thing I thought was
6:31
really interesting is I saw mentions of
6:34
uh and I don't know if this is accurate
6:36
or not, but I saw them say something
6:38
about there was a a cultural exchange
6:40
between the Arathi's and the dwarf, not
6:42
the Arathi Empire, the original Arathi
6:46
humans,
6:47
um where it talks about the humans and
6:49
dwarves sharing traditions and cultures,
6:51
uh and sort of like forging that initial
6:53
friendship that we saw throughout all of
6:55
the games of World of Warcraft and World
6:58
of Warcraft. Uh
7:00
and then the stuff that happened across
7:03
uh Redridge with the eruptions of the
7:05
Burning Steppes, uh and then all the way
7:07
through that through Loch Modan. So,
7:09
like there was a
7:10
basically like an aerial sky riding path
7:13
in storytelling uh is the way that I saw
7:15
it referred to, which is really nice
7:17
because if if this is all accurate, and
7:20
I believe what you're telling me,
7:22
obvious, that means that they're
7:23
actually paying attention to holidays a
7:25
little bit again,
7:26
and actually adding meat or or important
7:30
little things like that. And maybe for
7:32
the average player that isn't important,
7:34
and like you said, it's not
7:34
earth-shattering, but for people like
7:37
us, it's really cool and really neat,
7:39
and especially if you've been playing
7:40
this game for as long as you have, it's
7:42
a nice little nod acknowledging sort of
7:45
the history of the game and like kind of
7:49
quietly filling in a little bit of gaps
7:51
or a little bit of storytelling that
7:53
doesn't matter in the grand scheme of
7:55
like the universe's ending but instead
7:57
is just kind of cool
7:59
little tiny thing to like reward you for
8:03
paying attention to the holiday. Which I
8:05
thought was I think that's really cool.
8:06
>> Yeah, my my one complaint is that it was
8:09
such a limited time and summer I mean
8:12
every time of the year is crazy for
8:13
different people but summer can be so
8:16
blink and you miss it. Like oh that
8:18
midsummer event happened. I should make
8:19
sure that I get to those quests and it's
8:23
gone. So just you know make it your make
8:26
it make it the story part. Put it in
8:28
lore walking. It doesn't even have to be
8:30
go up to Lorewalker Cho and say oh you
8:33
might not have heard but like did anyone
8:34
tell you this story? It could be that.
8:36
It could be go find somebody at one of
8:38
the bonfires that's out and they say oh
8:41
yeah it's not midsummer but I'll happy
8:43
to tell you the story of what happened.
8:45
Like just so no one has to miss it. Just
8:47
so anybody who wants to actually
8:48
experience it can. That would be cool.
8:50
>> Yeah, I would agree with that. I think
8:51
that would be a really nice thing to add
8:52
in especially for
8:54
folks that really care about story.
8:55
We've already seen
8:57
they've kind of done a little bit of
8:58
that with lore walking. I don't think we
9:00
need to have a midsummer flying time
9:03
walking
9:04
or lore walking thing but like you said
9:07
having an NPC that like I don't know
9:10
>> Matt and I had talked about this before.
9:11
One of our favorite NPCs in Dragonflight
9:15
was the little dwarf dragon man that
9:17
just sat at the edge that he was very
9:20
sad but he just wanted to tell you
9:22
stories of his friends
9:24
and like it was such like this cool
9:27
little thing that pulled you into like
9:29
this immersion of okay this was a living
9:31
world. This is things that happened.
9:33
Here's an NPC who's just wants to tell
9:36
stories and just wants somebody to
9:38
listen.
9:39
And I can see them doing something
9:40
similar with this, especially with like
9:43
again involving that cultural exchange,
9:45
having somebody from the Wildhammers,
9:48
you know,
9:49
having one of their their their
9:51
storytellers, one of their sages,
9:53
come through and like, you know, kind of
9:55
be permanently stationed there and talk
9:57
about, you know, just a little thing of
9:59
how the humans and the dwarves became
10:01
friends or or whatever the case is or
10:03
how they found
10:04
their griffins and how they discovered
10:06
Grim Batol and all this other stuff. I
10:08
think that would be a really nice tiny
10:12
addition to the game. And Blizzard, if
10:14
you're listening, please add that in.
10:17
And I will say that it also gave me hope
10:18
that we might see little bits of this as
10:21
well for other holidays, which would be
10:23
really cool
10:25
because there's tons of holidays in game
10:26
and we've always talked about especially
10:29
on the main podcast, it doesn't feel
10:31
like they've really done anything with
10:33
them in forever. And something like this
10:37
and and I understand it's a level of
10:38
effort that they might not be willing to
10:39
commit to it, but something like this
10:41
occasionally for those holidays would be
10:44
really really cool. Like explain why the
10:48
Horde and the Alliance both celebrate
10:51
their Winterveil
10:53
holiday the way they How did that story
10:55
transfer between all of these people
10:57
across Azeroth? How did that tradition
10:59
spread? Like little tiny things like
11:02
that are kind of what I look for in
11:05
these. And I Matt's been pretty quiet. I
11:07
don't know if he's got any opinions on
11:08
it.
11:08
>> I mean,
11:10
I have opinions about, you know, using
11:12
that kind of thing for long-form
11:13
storytelling and obviously, my biggest
11:16
problem is not just that they made a
11:18
midsummer thing, but that
11:22
it kind of dropped some lore in in a way
11:25
that's not just hard to get to, but I've
11:27
already done midsummer to the amount I
11:30
want to do it, you know? I I was
11:32
deliberately not doing it cuz I didn't,
11:34
you know, okay, we've added a few
11:35
things. Yeah, great, but it's still a
11:37
holiday I've done for 10 years, man. So,
11:39
I had no way of knowing there was
11:41
anything new to learn by doing it. And I
11:43
feel a little bit like they could have
11:44
tried to make it a bigger deal of that.
11:46
But maybe they did and I just missed it
11:48
cuz like I've been doing a lot's been
11:49
going on. I've been doing a lot of
11:50
different stuff, so
11:52
You made it other games I play,
11:53
Blizzard. If you wanted me to catch the
11:55
lore in this one, maybe you shouldn't
11:57
have done that other thing.
11:59
So, yeah. That's the other problem is I
12:01
really not only have I been playing
12:03
Diablo 4 and Diablo Immortal and Diablo
12:07
3. It's like, guys, you you have me.
12:10
Just please cut me some slack. Just tell
12:12
me when you're doing something so I can
12:14
keep up.
12:15
>> Yeah, and I think that that's another
12:16
thing that I I I kind of hope that they
12:19
learn from it cuz you're not the only
12:20
person that I've heard that specific
12:23
complaint from, which is a valid
12:25
complaint like quite honestly, is
12:29
we don't know when something new is
12:31
there. And so, like if they do update
12:33
it, please tell us. Like broadcast
12:35
something. Make it a point in the
12:37
content stuff that you guys are pushing
12:39
out and the stuff that you're releasing,
12:41
let us know that you've done that. And I
12:43
think it will you'll find
12:45
a very positive reception. At least in
12:48
my opinion, I feel like they'd find it
12:50
very positive reception. But yeah,
12:53
hopefully we can see some more of this
12:54
with other
12:55
uh
12:56
other holidays and I mean, is there
12:58
anyone in particular that you guys would
13:00
like to see them
13:01
maybe spend a little more attention on?
13:03
>> That's a great question.
13:05
Um
13:06
I mean, just because it's my favorite
13:08
holiday in real life, Hallow, is it
13:09
Hallow's End in in the game? I know
13:11
there's
13:12
>> Hallow's End, yeah.
13:13
>> There's already we already have the
13:14
story, but like why not do other things
13:17
relating to it? There's so many spooky
13:18
zones that could also have their own
13:21
like, "Hey, you've never heard this
13:23
story of what happens here and what we
13:25
do here in Duskwood or here in um
13:30
over in Cool Tiras or something. So, I I
13:33
I think there's, you know, obviously
13:34
lots of storytelling potential there.
13:37
>> Matt.
13:37
>> The one-day Pilgrim's Bounty
13:40
I
13:41
I feel like we've got we got like
13:43
midsummers, we got the uh Halloween
13:46
stand-in, we've got the Winter's Veil,
13:49
and it feels like
13:50
Pilgrim's Bounty is attempting to be
13:52
Thanksgiving
13:53
and they want it to be with no real
13:55
reason to have a Thanksgiving and no
13:58
real explanation of the pilgrims. That
14:01
Who are the pilgrims that you That whose
14:02
bounty we're involved in? Whose bounty
14:05
did Did Was there a bounty on some
14:07
pilgrims? Did someone kill some pilgrims
14:09
for money? What are you talking about?
14:12
And they I They used to have like an
14:14
incredibly small story thing. I don't
14:16
even know if it's still there. It might
14:18
be. But, it doesn't really explain any
14:20
of this. Do something. Like, ah. I I
14:23
just I find Pilgrim's Bounty so
14:24
annoying. It's You don't have to make it
14:27
just Thanksgiving. You've got You've got
14:30
your Oktoberfest with, you know,
14:31
Brewfest. But, there's harvest
14:34
festivals. You could be It could just be
14:36
a harvest festival.
14:38
Just say that's what it is and and be
14:40
done with it. Ah. Or do something cool
14:43
with the story of these pilgrims. Or Are
14:46
we talking the original rycul who came
14:49
to earned ended up being humans?
14:52
Like, because that would make sense and
14:54
it'd be one of the few holidays that we
14:55
know is specifically human in origin and
14:58
not like, is this actually based on
15:00
something else? So, yeah. I I I'd like
15:03
to see them actually make Pilgrim's
15:05
Bounty something worth doing and maybe
15:07
make it last a couple of weeks.
15:09
So, it's That's the other thing. The
15:11
These micro holidays are fine and all,
15:13
but they are
15:14
they are very small moving targets for
15:17
you to hit with a schedule. Like, if
15:19
you've got a life and you don't do
15:20
certain things on certain days,
15:23
you kind of got to do something to make
15:25
it easier for us to see these things,
15:26
guys. So, yeah, that's my
15:28
>> Well, hopefully they will listen and
15:29
hopefully we'll get some more stuff with
15:32
some better visibility. My fingers are
15:35
crossed. We're going to move on to our
15:37
next question here,
15:39
which I believe
15:40
was lost to the story might this lost in
15:43
the the name here, but it might also be
15:44
Katie S stories. If this is your
15:46
question, I apologize for not having it
15:48
marked here. Um oh, the note this is
15:51
from Scribbly. I can see the writing.
15:53
Thanks, Scribbly.
15:55
Why is there a portal to Oribos
15:57
maintained in the Mage Tower in
15:59
Stormwind and in Orgrimmar in the portal
16:01
room? I have I may have mentioned that I
16:03
haven't played much of Shadowlands, but
16:05
I was under the impression that only the
16:06
Maw Walker and a few others, mostly
16:08
characters of high importance like
16:10
Thrall and Jaina, were also drawn into
16:12
the Shadowlands during that time period.
16:14
Why keep this portal up lore-wise? Am I,
16:17
the player character, just that
16:19
important? And if I need to dilly-dally
16:21
back to the Shadowlands, they keep it
16:24
there for my convenience? Question mark.
16:26
>> Um might
16:28
>> want a lore explanation? Cuz obviously
16:30
there's a very big, simple lore
16:32
explanation. Go for it. We are There's
16:34
no singular Maw Walker.
16:36
>> Yeah.
16:37
>> They told you that up front. There are
16:39
Maw Walkers. You are one of them. But
16:42
there's a bunch of them. And in addition
16:45
to that,
16:46
>> Yes. Anduin's the one who actually
16:49
activated the first one device to get
16:52
everyone out of the Jailer's grasp,
16:54
except of course um and in addition to
16:57
that,
16:58
there's also we see several times people
17:00
come from Azeroth during
17:05
the events of Shadowlands who to to
17:07
visit with their dead loved ones. Um
17:10
we see this with of all people Darian
17:13
Mograine who comes to see his father. Um
17:16
we see it with Thrall and Jaina who are
17:18
still there and they're still like, you
17:20
know, trying to figure out how to get to
17:22
her and Anduin. At the end of
17:24
everything, when you get to the end of
17:26
the story, it's it's stabilizing the
17:29
giant rip between worlds, but there's no
17:33
reason to completely close it off
17:35
because it's a place and you can go
17:37
there and you can talk to people.
17:39
>> Yeah.
17:40
>> And we see that because that happens in
17:42
Arator's story. Now, I'm going to let
17:45
Joe talk cuz there's a lot
17:46
>> Well, no, there's there's something else
17:46
to add on to that that's in the story
17:48
that I don't think people I I mean,
17:50
maybe they do, but I don't see people
17:52
mention this enough when they talk about
17:54
this specific thing. The brokers exist.
17:58
And the brokers have portal systems that
18:01
allow them to move in and out of the
18:03
Shadowlands just fine. And not all of
18:05
them are all walkers.
18:07
Right? And we know that Venari can get
18:09
in and out. She's not technically a Maw
18:11
walker. There is a level of magic
18:15
that is able to go into the Shadowlands.
18:19
The other thing to remember, too, is a
18:22
Maw walker does not mean Shadowlands
18:26
walker. A Maw walker is somebody who can
18:28
freely go into the Maw and leave. They
18:32
are not trapped there. The rest of the
18:34
Shadowlands is not bound by those same
18:37
rules. And we know that people can move
18:39
between those regions of the Shadowlands
18:42
pretty freely if they so choose. And we
18:46
know that things that aren't Maw walkers
18:49
are able to get into and out of the
18:51
Shadowlands as a whole. Oribos
18:54
is not in the Maw. It is above the Maw.
18:59
So, when you talk about a Maw walker,
19:02
it's not I can enter and leave the
19:04
Shadowlands, it's I can enter and leave
19:06
the Maw. So, all of these things
19:09
combined, there is zero reason that
19:13
there can't be a a permanent way in and
19:15
out of the Shadowlands. We've talked
19:17
about it before where it's just it's a
19:19
realm of existence, right? It's there.
19:23
It it is a
19:24
a technically a physical place in the
19:26
universe and how everything is stacked.
19:29
We know we can go to the Emerald Dream.
19:31
We know we can go to the Shadowlands. We
19:33
know we can travel to other planets. We
19:35
know we can travel through time. We know
19:36
that we can go to all these places and
19:38
physically touch them. And we don't
19:40
necessarily have to be super special to
19:41
do so. So, I think that's also the other
19:44
distinction that that needs to always be
19:46
remembered when we're having this
19:47
conversation is that just because you're
19:49
a Maw Walker, all that means is that you
19:52
can enter and leave the Maw. Everything
19:54
else is pretty much fair game.
19:55
>> You could even argue that there's no
19:56
real reason to keep the distinction now
19:58
that Zovaal is no longer in charge of
20:00
the Maw.
20:00
>> Yeah, the the Jailer is not there
20:02
anymore.
20:03
>> Yeah. The Jailer and the eye that he
20:05
bound were the things allowing him to
20:08
control the Maw in the way that he was.
20:10
He's not doing that anymore.
20:12
And the Maw is now it's just there. Uh
20:17
it's it's a place people go if they
20:18
shouldn't go anywhere else. It's just
20:20
one of the Shadowlands. And Oribos is
20:22
kind of the the hub of the Shadowlands
20:25
now like it was before.
20:27
The portal being there doesn't it it's
20:30
it's about going to Oribos. It's about
20:32
possibly going to talk to among other
20:34
things the Arbiter himself. You know
20:37
who's also our personal friend, but you
20:38
know, regardless,
20:40
the Arbiter is an important personage in
20:44
the realm of death. There might be
20:45
reasons to go talk to him. Both the
20:47
Horde and Alliance aren't going to just
20:49
shut on that shut that door down. What
20:50
if they need to talk to them? What if
20:52
something happened?
20:53
>> Like like Screwly says, am I that
20:56
important? Like we are that important.
20:58
Like you said, there's there's more than
21:00
one Maw Walker. There's there's lots of
21:02
us player characters. Maybe not a
21:04
million, but there's you know, in the
21:06
universe there's a bunch of them that
21:09
might show up anytime and say, "Hey,
21:11
come on, where's the portal to
21:12
Orgrimmar? So, I have to get there to do
21:13
my important stuff." And the mages in
21:16
the portal room are like, "Oh, this
21:17
guy's back. Let's just keep it open, you
21:19
know? What some somebody comes every day
21:21
and a half asking and using up all my
21:24
runes so they can keep this portal open.
21:26
Let's just Let's just open it all the
21:27
time. I can see that being,
21:30
you know, applicable.
21:31
>> Yeah. I don't know if there's anything
21:32
else to add there, but hopefully that
21:34
answers your question.
21:36
Um and then this is also from Scribbly
21:39
involving the Shadowlands. I think we're
21:40
going to move on to this one as well.
21:42
Uh as I was pursuing Shadowlands time
21:44
walking rewards, I saw that there is a
21:46
long sword of the first ones, and it had
21:48
me thinking. We've talked about the
21:50
first ones before, but what do we
21:52
concretely know in game about the first
21:54
ones? Uh nothing.
21:57
>> Yeah. [laughter] I was I was wondering
21:59
if you're going to say nothing.
22:00
>> Uh they are they are We We kind of
22:03
talked about this in a in a recent uh
22:05
Lore Watch when we were talking about
22:08
their role in the universe, and I made
22:10
it a point to kind of point out that
22:13
the Titans started as this big nebulous
22:16
thing. They started as like a whispered
22:20
pantheon of god-like beings that, you
22:23
know, nobody knew if they were real or
22:24
not or what the case was, and they they
22:26
didn't really have substance until they
22:28
did. And until that lore started getting
22:31
fleshed out and the story of them
22:32
started unraveling and being introduced
22:34
in game. And after them, there wasn't a
22:37
big mysterious thing because all the big
22:40
mysterious things had gotten filled in
22:42
over the years. The old gods, big
22:45
mysterious things of myth and legend,
22:47
got filled in over the years.
22:49
Uh Titans got filled in over the years.
22:51
Uh the the bugs uh of of Silithus
22:56
uh and that whole thing, the nerubians,
22:59
all that stuff, these were all nebulous,
23:01
you know,
23:03
that got filled in as time persisted.
23:05
And the first ones are sort of filling
23:08
this role
23:10
of
23:11
mercurial storytelling plot device. They
23:15
existed in Shadowlands as an impetus to
23:17
sort of drive the point of the story
23:18
forward and to give us something to
23:22
bring motivation
23:23
uh for what the, you know, antagonist
23:27
and protagonist were going through. You
23:29
know, why is Zovaal the way he is? Why
23:31
are the Pantheon of Death the way they
23:33
are? What How did they get made? Why
23:36
were they made? Why was the universe
23:38
crafted? All of these things then
23:40
started getting tied back to the whim of
23:43
the First Ones.
23:44
And we know precious, precious little
23:47
about them. There's whole quest lines in
23:49
Shadowlands of us helping uh
23:53
I think at one point it was Renathal,
23:54
but there's also another uh broker that
23:56
I can't remember off the top of my
23:57
>> Ve'nari.
23:58
>> Thank you.
23:59
>> Right? The one that
24:00
>> Yeah.
24:01
>> cave, yeah.
24:01
>> Yeah. Who was like That was their their
24:04
life's mission was to discover who and
24:06
what the First Ones are and what their,
24:09
you know, what their vaults and secrets
24:11
were. And it didn't It didn't read as I
24:13
want to pillage the tomb. It read as I
24:16
must have this knowledge. I need to know
24:18
what the purpose of the universe is.
24:21
And even that, like it became a
24:23
breadcrumb for players to follow and for
24:26
other NPCs to be motivated on
24:30
like either the behest of or against
24:32
their motivations. And so, we don't know
24:36
much about them, and that's by design.
24:39
The First Ones can literally be anything
24:42
right now. They are essentially beings
24:45
of infinite potential in the
24:46
storytelling because anytime they need
24:49
to develop that story, which you know,
24:51
chances are likely we'll get more of it
24:52
as we go through the next uh
24:54
expansion, The Last Titan, and learn
24:56
more about the Titans and what they are
24:58
and more about what Azeroth is and what
25:00
the plan was, I'm sure there'll be
25:02
something with the First Ones tied up in
25:03
that. And then afterwards, uh I'm sure
25:06
we'll find out more as the Devourers
25:08
come more and more into reality.
25:10
Right? Because it seemed like that might
25:12
be the great devouring host that the
25:14
First Ones were potentially afraid of.
25:16
But everything else we know are little
25:18
tiny snippets left behind by beings that
25:23
either don't exist or moved on and left
25:27
everything else behind. So,
25:29
again, the answer is the answer is maybe
25:31
not necessarily nothing, but we know
25:33
pretty close to uh what do you guys
25:35
think?
25:35
>> I think there's an interesting point to
25:37
be to be made in the fact that we only
25:40
know them by their works. We know them
25:42
by what they what so far what little we
25:45
know of what they actually did. And what
25:48
you know, why it mattered. Like who
25:51
built the Sepulcher of the First Ones?
25:54
Did the First Ones build it?
25:55
>> Keep in mind, Sepulcher means tomb.
25:58
>> Yeah, but you can build your own tomb.
26:00
>> Absolutely, the Egyptians did.
26:02
>> Yeah, you build it before you use it.
26:04
Then then you're dead and people stick
26:06
you in there. But who if if they were
26:09
going if they did die, if they could
26:11
die, then was there somebody who buried
26:15
them or did they go into their own tomb
26:17
and then die in it? Uh there's
26:20
a lot of mysteries to the First Ones
26:22
including what you know, what kind of
26:25
entity creates a universe? You know,
26:27
like all the stuff in the creation of
26:31
Azeroth and all the planes beyond it,
26:33
they if they created that, what were
26:35
they? Uh it reminds you a little bit of
26:37
the Isu from uh
26:39
Assassin's Creed. One of the things I
26:41
always like is that every time you see
26:42
the Isu, you see them from somebody
26:43
else's perspective of them.
26:46
>> Yeah, they're very mercurial like that,
26:47
right?
26:48
>> Yeah, you don't see them, you see what
26:50
other people think they were like. Um
26:53
this is like the one thing I really
26:55
liked about Assassin's Creed Valhalla
26:56
was that every time you saw the the Isu,
26:59
you saw them through the lens of of
27:01
Norse mythology. And you realize at a
27:04
certain point you realize this isn't
27:05
what the Isu thought of themselves, this
27:07
is what other people thought of the Isu.
27:09
And
27:11
that's the first ones in a nutshell. We
27:12
know only all we know of the first ones
27:15
is the stuff that's left behind and the
27:17
stuff other people who've been looking
27:19
into them say about. So yeah, that I
27:22
think that's interesting as well.
27:24
There's a lot of
27:26
room for it to be something else and
27:28
that we don't know yet what that is.
27:31
Also, we don't really even know. I went
27:32
and looked at the longsword of the first
27:33
ones. Just cuz it's called the longsword
27:35
of the first ones doesn't mean the first
27:36
ones ever saw it.
27:38
You know, it's just a longsword that
27:40
somebody named something. Uh
27:42
it it's certainly it's a perfectly nice
27:45
model, but that doesn't mean that's
27:46
literally all we know about it.
27:48
Somebody could have said this
27:49
longsword's like the first ones. How?
27:51
>> Well, well, cuz it's the first
27:52
longsword. I and I like that. I like
27:55
that we don't know why it's called that.
27:58
>> It it and I'm going to let Eric talk
27:59
here in a minute, but it's very much a
28:01
ancient civilizations thing. Right? Like
28:04
it is very much like it feels like in
28:06
real life how many times did we discover
28:08
something in like the tomb somewhere and
28:13
you know, assume that it was one thing
28:15
and then turns out we find out, you
28:17
know, generations later that no, that
28:20
wasn't actually a backscratcher. That
28:21
was really a you know, a torture device
28:24
or whatever the case is. It's happened
28:26
so frequent.
28:28
>> Like ancient Egyptian daggers look like
28:31
this. It's like no, that's what they
28:32
look like in the movies.
28:34
>> Yep.
28:34
>> Almost certainly not what they looked
28:36
like back then. So maybe maybe it's the
28:38
same situation. The transmog vendor is
28:40
like, "Oh yeah, totally. Longsword of
28:42
the first ones, just like they had."
28:44
It's like we don't even know if they had
28:45
arms.
28:47
We don't know if they had swords.
28:49
But, I Yeah, it was we hear from Fyrim,
28:52
who's like, we don't know how long he's
28:54
been there, but it's definitely not a
28:55
short time, and he's been working on
28:58
It's really difficult to understand
29:00
anything. Like, their language is math
29:03
tesseract uh
29:06
all kinds of confusing songs. It's like,
29:09
he's like
29:10
he's like confused, and you show up, and
29:12
you he's got the red yarn on the wall,
29:14
and he's like, they might be a song,
29:16
they might be the cosmic forces, but
29:19
like, there's six of them, but maybe
29:21
there's a seventh one, but that's crazy,
29:23
right? Right? And then you're looking at
29:25
me, you're like, I don't know, I just
29:26
got here. I don't know anything about
29:28
this area.
29:29
But, I do know that part of the reason
29:31
why
29:32
we haven't heard of them up until
29:34
Shadowlands is partly because of the
29:38
propaganda of the Titans and them
29:41
>> No, not even the Titans.
29:42
>> The keepers, yeah.
29:43
>> Odin.
29:44
>> Odin's saying, you know, don't talk
29:47
about the first ones. Mortals aren't
29:49
going to understand. They're not going
29:51
to appreciate it. Um just We don't need
29:54
to talk about it. And he tells everybody
29:55
else to shut up about it.
29:57
>> What's really hilarious to me is the
29:58
First off, when you said what you said
30:00
Well, I think I hear is is Fyrim,
30:02
imagining Fyrim going, I am not here for
30:04
a good time. I'm here for a long time.
30:08
And then the other thing I'm thinking
30:09
about is like, in terms of Odin and his
30:12
whole deal, that that Keep in mind that
30:14
Odin has been playing a very long game
30:18
of no, we can't trust the the the lesser
30:21
beings with X. We can't trust the lesser
30:24
beings with Y. Odin doesn't think Of the
30:27
beings that Aman'thul's essence went
30:29
into, I suspect that some of it is still
30:31
in Odin.
30:32
>> I'd buy that.
30:33
>> Because of the way he acts. Because
30:36
Aman'thul's whole
30:38
old hissy fit over the first world tree
30:41
reminds me very much of this. And we all
30:43
know Aman'thul couldn't see anything and
30:45
immediately not think, "Ah, the solution
30:47
is to rip it out."
30:49
He's like, you know, he says, "Throw it
30:51
on the ground." He's like singing a
30:52
song, "I'm going to rip it from the
30:53
ground."
30:54
>> And
30:54
>> So, I find myself wondering if that's
30:56
got something to do with
30:58
This is my my wildest theory yet and I
31:00
don't think it's going to work out, but
31:02
we still don't know how Titans and world
31:05
souls get into existence.
31:06
>> Well, from from that book, from that,
31:10
you know, journal, which is kind of the
31:11
only one of the only peaks behind the
31:13
curtain we have that is definitely not,
31:16
as far as we know, just here's the
31:18
Titans' version of something. Here's a
31:19
keeper kind of giving a note to the
31:23
other keepers that is was not supposed
31:26
to leak to us and it says,
31:29
uh
31:29
Do May mortals could not conceive of the
31:31
wonders that the makers granted to the
31:33
Titans in Zereth Ordus. So, like just
31:37
that line of the book tells us a whole
31:39
bunch of stuff that we didn't know that
31:41
is kind of big.
31:43
>> Yeah, but my point is just that the
31:44
Titans themselves might it might not be
31:48
gifts that they were given. It might be
31:50
jobs that they were given.
31:52
>> Mhm.
31:53
It could be, but whatever it is, they
31:55
didn't think that we needed to know.
31:59
They all we needed to know is that
32:01
Titans bring order
32:02
>> And that's the thing.
32:03
>> They bring they they rank order higher
32:05
than creation. They're like, "Yeah, it
32:07
doesn't matter what was here before. We
32:09
ordered it and so therefore we are
32:12
the most important thing."
32:14
>> Yeah, but see again, we don't know if
32:16
that's the Titans or if that's Odin. And
32:18
that's the the complicated and fun part
32:20
of all this because
32:22
Odin was made by the Titans who possibly
32:25
were made by the first ones. It's like,
32:27
is it just turtles all the way down? Is
32:29
it just people who think they know best
32:31
all the way down? So, yeah, I I that's
32:34
all I'm going to say right now.
32:35
Uh later someday I may end up saying the
32:37
rest of it, but we'll see.
32:38
>> Yeah, the first ones, who made the first
32:40
ones? The zeroth ones, the
32:43
Maybe there's only one zeroth one. Maybe
32:44
it's a zeroth one. Maybe it's Maybe it's
32:48
as zeroth
32:49
>> zeroth You keep saying zeroth and and
32:51
I'm keep wanting to say Zeroth, you
32:52
know.
32:53
>> A-
32:54
Zereth Azeroth
32:56
A zeroth Azeroth. I mean, I don't I
32:59
don't think that's the way that it's
33:00
going, but the the bad grammar kind of
33:02
points right to it.
33:03
>> I mean, the
33:05
>> Mhm.
33:05
>> Yeah, I I have thoughts. I started like
33:08
just kind of kind of going through it.
33:10
We could probably talk another half hour
33:11
of just like this this whole unraveling
33:14
of it.
33:15
Um, but yeah, like it all comes back to
33:19
we don't know. And it everything we do
33:22
know in game is told from an unreliable
33:26
perspective. And that's the other thing
33:28
to keep in mind as we unravel stuff.
33:31
Because I And I'm not saying an
33:33
unreliable narrator, I'm saying an
33:35
unreliable perspective. It's kind of
33:37
like how we got the Grimoire of the
33:38
Shadowlands and it said that, "Oh,
33:41
Chronicle is quaint, but it's wrong."
33:44
Um, but yeah, Chronicle was our source
33:46
of truth for how long? Until we were
33:48
told it wasn't. And again, going back to
33:51
that idea that the first ones are a
33:53
civilization of beings that has been
33:58
long out of touch
34:00
from anything. We don't know if they
34:02
interacted with anything.
34:04
We don't even know if the Titans
34:06
interact with them. We know that they
34:07
they knew they existed in some capacity,
34:09
but we don't know that they interacted
34:11
with anything. The Pantheon of Death
34:13
which just woke up, right? They don't
34:14
have any memory of their their, you
34:16
know, celestial mommies and daddies.
34:19
Um, so anything that's discovered about
34:21
it
34:22
is
34:24
a tertiary source, essentially. And you
34:26
have to take it with a grain of salt.
34:28
And even stuff with like the Titans.
34:31
>> It's the Xel'Naga. I'm going to get it
34:33
now. It was the Xel'Naga all along.
34:34
>> Yeah, or or whatever the case is, right?
34:37
[laughter]
34:37
Like
34:38
I know, but I mean it's the idea that
34:40
like even the Titans may not know what
34:42
the first ones are.
34:44
So, their information is could be
34:46
completely wrong.
34:48
And so, unless you yourself get to
34:51
interact with it, you have to take
34:53
anything that's unveiled about it as a
34:56
like something that is unreliable.
34:59
And I'll head this off at the pass, if
35:01
something is introduced later that then
35:03
counteracts that or contradicts it, it
35:06
is not a retcon in a negative way. It is
35:10
literally just learning more information
35:12
that we didn't have before, and the
35:15
other information either existed in a
35:17
vacuum or likely was made with certain
35:20
assumptions in mind by that character,
35:22
if that makes sense. I hope that makes
35:24
sense.
35:24
>> Yeah, cuz it's basically like if you
35:25
look at a a die if you look at a tract
35:28
written in 1602 about space around
35:31
Earth, it's going to get things wrong
35:33
cuz there's lots of stuff they didn't
35:34
know. They they can tell you what they
35:36
see, but they can't explain to you why.
35:39
Like why do planets move through space,
35:41
then do a loop-de-loop, then go start
35:43
going in the same direction they were
35:44
before?
35:45
They don't. Earth and that planet are
35:48
moving at different speeds, so it looks
35:50
like a loop-de-loop to us cuz we
35:52
overtook them.
35:54
Cuz we're closer to the sun, so we move
35:57
faster relative to our orbit. They
36:00
didn't know that. That's just one of
36:02
many facts that they did not have access
36:04
to. They could tell you what it looked
36:06
like when they looked at Mars over and
36:08
over again over the course of a year,
36:09
they couldn't explain why until they
36:11
realized what was actually happening.
36:14
>> They even had wrong ideas. They had
36:15
stuff that was not that they believed,
36:17
and you can't point to it and say, "Oh,
36:19
well, now you changed your story." It's
36:20
like, "Well, that's what we thought at
36:21
the time."
36:22
>> Yeah, it fit the it fit the evidence
36:24
that they had. If they considering that
36:26
already believed based on observations
36:29
that the Earth was the central point of
36:30
the solar system, you had to make sense
36:33
on why you saw planets doing these
36:34
things. And it wasn't until later they
36:36
realized, oh, well, our first thing was
36:38
I mean
36:39
>> Well, I mean, it also reminds me of like
36:40
the the real-life phenomenon. Like a
36:42
really good example of this
36:44
is the old ancient belief that I think
36:47
originated I want to say it was like
36:49
Aristotle.
36:50
Um sorry, I'm I'm really like oddly
36:54
spiraled with a lot of this stuff lately
36:56
thanks to
36:57
Liz and I playing Desktop Explorer.
37:00
Uh but Aristotle at one point in time I
37:03
believe thought that mud made fish or
37:06
frogs and that mice were born of could
37:09
be born of dirty rags. It's the old idea
37:11
of spontaneous generation. Right? Or
37:15
that
37:16
you know,
37:17
people believe that rotting meat turned
37:20
into flies and magnets on its own. And
37:23
that was
37:23
>> of eggs being laid in it they didn't
37:25
they never observed the activity.
37:26
>> observed it. Yeah. So like there was
37:28
this idea for for a very long time that
37:30
these that living things could come from
37:33
non-living things because we didn't
37:35
understand the process of it. Then years
37:37
later we you know, we go through and and
37:41
do things like what we had a Redi's test
37:43
I want to say in like the the
37:45
mid-late 1600s. Um where
37:49
Francesco Redi showed that
37:51
covered meat did not get maggots proving
37:53
that flies were the ones laying the eggs
37:55
on the meat. Uh and then we had
37:59
pasteurization Louis Pasteur in in the
38:02
mid-1800s
38:03
maybe 1860s I can't remember
38:06
who used the swan-neck neck flask to
38:09
show that air alone does not create
38:11
microbes in boiled broth proving that
38:13
life only comes from other life. Like
38:16
there's this whole big thing about it
38:18
but before this this was
38:20
like absolute knowledge that if you
38:22
didn't clean up your rags, that was
38:24
going to spontaneously turn into mice.
38:26
Or if you didn't, you know, if you just
38:28
let meat rot, you were going to get
38:30
maggots. Not because there were flies
38:31
there, but because, you know, that's
38:33
just what happens when when fruit and
38:34
meat decay. Right?
38:36
>> Yeah, I mean, since you mentioned it,
38:38
one of the things that goes This one's
38:39
even older and it's not specifically
38:41
about meat, but I if you've read Kuhn's
38:43
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions,
38:45
one of the points he made is that uh
38:47
Aristotle and many other Greek uh
38:49
philosophers believed that there had to
38:52
be an explanation for why when you
38:54
burned wood it changed the wood. Why it
38:58
wasn't wood anymore. And they thought
38:59
that what happened was something called
39:00
phlogiston was it was extracted from the
39:02
wood when it burned. And all of that is
39:06
based around what they were observing
39:08
and what they weren't observing. Like
39:10
when you burn wood, it carbon is created
39:13
because the fire actually mixes the the
39:16
chemical composition of the wood with
39:19
you know, elements in the air. And those
39:22
elements weren't weren't known of.
39:23
People didn't know what oxygen was. They
39:25
just kept talking about phlogiston, the
39:26
phlogiston's been removed. That's why
39:28
smoke rises, that's why it burns. And it
39:31
wasn't until Lavoisier in Paris just
39:34
before the French Revolution and then
39:37
the the European but mostly the English
39:40
basically finally worked out, no, what's
39:42
happening when you burn the wood is that
39:44
it's releasing stored oxygen. And the
39:47
carbon is what is merging with what's
39:50
remaining of it. The hydrogen is removed
39:53
and consumed in the process. And that's
39:56
why it doesn't weigh exactly the same as
39:59
it did when it was a branch. That's why
40:01
it's different. You're releasing it's
40:03
releasing itself. It's not releasing
40:05
phlogiston, it's releasing itself. It's
40:07
breaking the structure that holds it
40:10
together. And that's the thing like it's
40:13
not a contradiction, it's not an
40:15
argument. It's just, oh. Oh, we didn't
40:18
think of that. We didn't look at We
40:20
didn't know about that. With with
40:22
Chronicle going into, you know, the the
40:26
I forget what the Shadowlands book is
40:27
called, like the the something of the
40:29
Shadowlands. It's not called the
40:30
Chronicle of the Shadowlands, so. But,
40:32
that book is written from They even have
40:34
the the orrery of the universe thing
40:36
that they had. They even have it
40:37
reversed because from the perspective of
40:39
somebody in a different place. Um and
40:42
that's the thing here. A lot of this
40:43
stuff is perspective-based. And when we
40:46
find something supposedly written about
40:49
what Odin told other people, who wrote
40:51
it? And we know too, like when we did
40:54
the the, you know, when we went to uh
40:56
the the War Within, that whole thing was
41:00
moving from uh Now, I don't want to say
41:02
Shadowlands. Really, there was
41:03
Dragonflight, The War Within, and
41:05
Midnight. When War Within, when we go
41:07
there, we're we're following up on stuff
41:09
we actually learned in Dragonflight
41:10
about weird places that the Titans
41:12
apparently considered to be prisons. So,
41:16
yeah, there's a lot of stuff we don't
41:17
know how Who wrote this bit? What's
41:19
going on? We still don't know everything
41:20
about who did what to prevent the Earth
41:24
and from accessing,
41:26
you know, Titan information. We know
41:28
that when we started messing around with
41:30
>> Yeah, but we don't have an absolute, you
41:33
know, this guy did this. Because whoever
41:35
it is, they are not mentioned. So, yeah.
41:39
>> Yeah. And we do Go ahead.
41:41
It It just wouldn't be a very exciting
41:43
story to follow if every time we got a
41:46
new expansion in World of Warcraft, it
41:47
was just going to a new continent,
41:49
learning everything there was to know
41:51
about it with no questions, you know,
41:53
defeating everybody there, and saving
41:56
the day, and saying, "That's it. Let's
41:58
move on to the next one."
41:59
To have unreliable narrators, to have
42:02
story bits that are lost to history that
42:05
we're trying to uncover, to have people
42:07
who are super confident in this is how
42:08
the universe works and how it's put put
42:10
and then to find out later that that
42:12
wasn't the case at all. Um it just makes
42:15
it more worth following, in my opinion.
42:17
It makes it more fun to be along for the
42:19
ride.
42:19
>> Yeah, I would agree with that. Uh
42:22
I hope that answers your question, and
42:24
we're going to move on to this last one
42:25
from Scribbly,
42:27
uh and see if we can get that in in
42:28
time.
42:30
Uh and it's another part of what would
42:31
it take, which is we just answered one
42:33
with uh about Fandral Staghelm. This one
42:36
is about Sylvanas. Sylvanas has appeared
42:38
a handful of times now in
42:39
>> midnight. Uh to me, Blizzard is clearly
42:42
signaling that they are not done with
42:43
her story. You have also in the past
42:45
that you'd like her to stay on the shelf
42:46
for a while, but assuming Blizzard is
42:48
bringing her back anyway, what would it
42:50
take for that return to feel earned? I'm
42:53
not asking about forgiveness or even
42:54
atonement. Instead, from a storytelling
42:57
perspective, what what role could
42:59
Sylvanas play that would justify
43:00
bringing her back into the narrative?
43:02
Conversely, what would make her return
43:04
feel like a mistake?
43:06
>> Um
43:06
>> Um I I will say that up front before we
43:08
get into this. Uh
43:10
I feel like when I said I wanted her to
43:12
stay on the shelf, that was back in
43:14
Shadowlands, which as we recall,
43:16
is three expansions ago now.
43:18
>> Yarp.
43:19
>> I feel like she's been on the shelf. She
43:21
has been the elf on the shelf, and she
43:24
can
43:25
>> Yep.
43:25
>> She can come off the shelf. It was right
43:26
there.
43:26
>> Yeah.
43:27
>> It was and we haven't said it for how
43:28
long?
43:29
>> Yeah.
43:29
>> Like my word, this this was a joke that
43:31
was you know, 10 years in the making.
43:33
Regardless, I feel like she's it's okay
43:36
to use Sylvanas. I
43:38
I feel if anything, I am worried My
43:41
biggest worry, the thing that would make
43:42
me feel like it was a mistake, would be
43:44
if they failed to use her more than that
43:46
one cameo. Cuz that's ridiculous. She
43:49
shows up, chases Zalathras off, and then
43:51
we don't see her again. That would be a
43:54
mistake. That's my mistake. But now I'll
43:55
let you guys talk, and then I'll come
43:56
back in after.
43:58
>> No, I mean
43:58
>> Yeah, I liked that
43:59
>> Gutter.
43:59
>> we were a little bit like, are you done
44:01
with the whole souls from Teldrassil
44:04
thing? And she was like, no, no, I'm not
44:06
done. I just couldn't take it anymore. I
44:07
just had to come and shoot an arrow.
44:09
That's that's I I got to go. I got I I
44:11
am busy. You're right." And then she
44:13
goes again. Instead of like, "Yes, that
44:16
whole thing that it seemed like I was
44:17
going to go spend an eternity doing um
44:19
was 3 years. So So I liked I liked that
44:22
part of it that she do she was like,
44:24
"Yeah, yeah, and I I have to go again."
44:26
>> Yeah, I
44:27
So I I agree with Matt and and Eric here
44:29
and I think that
44:31
if her cameo or if it was reduced to
44:34
just a cameo, huge mistake. And it would
44:36
be something that I think would be I
44:39
would consider that a fumbling uh of the
44:42
character. And [clears throat] I agree
44:43
with Matt as well that I think she's
44:44
been
44:45
she's been on the shelf long enough um
44:48
that I think that her coming back isn't
44:51
necessarily a problem time-wise. I will
44:54
say that I'm hoping that they don't have
44:57
her come back and everything is sunshine
45:00
and roses
45:01
where she's instantly forgiven and
45:03
there's not any friction.
45:06
Because I want there to be friction
45:09
because friction generates good
45:12
storytelling potentially. Um she has one
45:17
sister who was almost consumed
45:20
uh by, you know, her own hatred and
45:23
insecurity and the darkness at the
45:25
center of her, which she understands
45:28
better than anybody else.
45:30
She has another sister who also is
45:32
consumed by a a different type of hatred
45:35
uh just directed at other elves at this
45:37
point. Uh so like
45:40
she understands that as well.
45:42
And I think now that she's got her whole
45:44
soul back, seeing her reckon with that
45:48
when they can, I think would be very
45:51
interesting. Like having a scene or a
45:54
scenario where all three of the
45:57
Windrunners go back to the Windrunner
45:59
estate and start clearing it out and
46:03
while they're doing that they're talking
46:06
and they're having a a parody moment
46:09
like in the the comic book the three
46:12
sisters and that that that story that
46:14
they showed with and have this thing
46:16
where Sylvanas comes clean. She tells
46:18
them everything.
46:21
Here's all my insecurities I had when I
46:23
was alive. Here's all the things I never
46:25
told you that I kept inside. Here are
46:27
all the things that I feared. Here's all
46:30
the things that, you know, I I just
46:34
couldn't vocalize. But now, because I've
46:37
had time to think and I've had nothing
46:39
but time to think as I ferry souls back
46:42
to where they need to be or where they
46:44
should be to make up for the things for
46:46
a very large mistake that I made. Now
46:49
it's time for me to to, you know, be the
46:51
one that brokers this and says
46:53
here's everything that happened. And be
46:55
honest, I had the thought to kill you to
46:58
bring you into my life because I missed
47:00
you so much. Like and have that be that
47:03
weird awkward moment where they all
47:04
realize the depths of their isolation,
47:07
their self-imposed isolation.
47:10
And
47:11
have that be like the starting point of
47:13
them mending their family. And I think
47:16
that could be really compelling and
47:18
good, especially if at the end of it we
47:21
are not the ones
47:23
that save our little void elf princess,
47:27
but Sylvanas comes out to save her
47:29
sister and that starts it. I could see
47:31
something like that. Like we we go and
47:33
fight Xal'atath and while that's going
47:35
on, you know, in comes
47:38
you know, Sylvanas not to help us fight,
47:40
but to get her family out.
47:42
And I could see that being good, too.
47:44
With her saying, "You guys got this.
47:47
I'm taking care of this." And then
47:49
having her become present again. And as
47:51
far as roles go,
47:53
in a greater story,
47:55
in a greater integration with like the
47:57
World of Warcraft NPCs. I think the
48:01
thing that
48:02
that people don't talk about enough
48:05
is a whole Sylvanas has a level of
48:09
perspective that nobody else on Azeroth
48:12
currently has. And that can be
48:15
invaluable
48:16
when it comes to how to deal with
48:19
things, how to approach things. You
48:21
don't have to trust her implicitly, but
48:24
she might have advice to give to
48:25
dignitaries that would be good. I think
48:28
Matt and I had talked about this a long
48:29
while ago. She needs to make amends with
48:32
a certain boy king. And could you
48:35
imagine like them just having a sit-down
48:39
and them figuring out like how each of
48:43
them moves forward, whether it's over
48:45
tea or whatever. Like she did him wrong,
48:49
she knows she did him wrong. He is the
48:51
type that would forgive her, but also
48:53
he's still finding himself. And he's
48:55
still uncertain of himself. Or maybe
48:57
Alleria is part of that conversation as
48:59
well. Maybe Alleria continues to be the
49:01
redeemer. But those are things that I
49:03
would like to see maybe potentially
49:05
as far as her role comes back and and
49:08
what it could be to slot her in where
49:10
it's she's important, but she's not the
49:12
central important figure.
49:14
>> I agree with that. I think what would
49:16
justify having Sylvanas come back
49:19
exactly now would be that we ask for
49:23
her, that we need her, and I I almost
49:26
forgot, but we we went to the Maw with
49:30
Alleria to ask her to come help, and
49:33
then she did. So if we find out that
49:36
whatever Xal'atath is up to next, we
49:38
really need something that Sylvanas
49:40
would be the best at or the only one to
49:42
do, um that seems like a good reason to
49:45
say, "Okay, she's going to come back
49:48
into the narrative." Um and you know,
49:51
have her still sit like it's one of my
49:54
favorite movies is Twister and Bill
49:55
Paxton shows up and they keep saying,
49:57
"Oh, good to see you back." And he goes,
49:58
"I'm not back." And he says it to
50:00
everybody. Like that kind of vibe where
50:02
it's like, "Oh, Sylvanas, like are you
50:04
the war chief again?" She's like, "No,
50:05
I'm not back. I'm just here because you
50:07
need me for this thing. I'm I'm not in."
50:10
Um and like yeah, like you said, it
50:11
needs to be hard. It can't be easy. It
50:13
can't just be a uh
50:15
okay, now I'm going to lead the army or
50:16
I'm going to do this thing. And there
50:17
needs to be friction. There's stuff that
50:19
has to be dealt with. It needs to feel
50:22
conflicting. We need to be kind of not
50:24
glad that she's back, but kind of glad
50:26
that she's back, but um I think if it's
50:28
if it's done right, it almost doesn't
50:30
seem right to have this be the only Like
50:32
I said, if this was the only time we see
50:34
Sylvanas for the wrap-up of the world
50:36
soul saga that's supposed to be the
50:38
capstone of the first 20 years that it
50:41
seems like we're not done seeing her.
50:43
So, yeah, I think that there's stuff
50:45
that could justify bringing her back and
50:47
having a role.
50:48
>> Yeah. Matt, did you have more to add?
50:50
>> I mean,
50:51
I will just say this,
50:53
at some point we got to find out where
50:55
Bwonsamdi is.
50:57
Where Where is her little Bwonsamdi
50:59
boyfriend? Where did he go? Where Why
51:01
didn't he just show up in in the Maw
51:03
again? What did the Jailer do with
51:06
Bwonsamdi? Cuz
51:07
>> Yeah.
51:07
>> let's face it, that that moment, the
51:10
second she found out that Nathanos was
51:13
dead and she didn't know about it, was
51:16
the second she was no longer interested
51:18
in anything going on around. Like the
51:21
whole invasion of Ardenweald, the whole
51:24
confrontation with Tyrande, the second
51:27
Tyrande dropped that bomb, Sylvanas was
51:30
like, "I got to go." She just turned and
51:32
began to try to leave immediately. I am
51:35
not saying that this is a case of that
51:38
he is all important to her character or
51:39
anything like that, but she cares about
51:43
Bwonsamdi. Underneath everything, she
51:46
cares about him. She cared about him
51:47
before she got her soul back. It It's It
51:49
transcended that. I want to know what
51:51
happened to him.
51:53
So, if at some point they feel like
51:55
doing a story where she goes to find
51:57
what where Blake Hollower is,
51:59
I would like to see it. That's all I'm
52:01
going to say.
52:02
>> Yeah, I mean cuz we don't know what
52:04
happened to him or if like I don't want
52:07
to say if he's alive, but I'm curious if
52:10
his anima is still there or if she's
52:13
found out that, you know, he was used as
52:16
fuel for something. And what that would
52:17
entail entail because we know that in
52:20
the Maw, she is
52:22
absolutely looking for him among
52:24
everything else she's, you know, doing
52:26
to atone for her sins.
52:29
And I'd like to see the conclusion of
52:30
that story, personally at least. But, I
52:33
think that's going to do it for us
52:34
today, friends. I do want to thank you
52:36
for joining us on this wonderful edition
52:39
of Lore Watch. Again, do want to remind
52:41
you that Blizzard Watch is made possible
52:44
due to your generous contributions at
52:45
patreon.com/blizzardwatch.
52:48
Your continued support means that this
52:49
podcast site and community are able to
52:51
thrive and grow.
52:53
Blizzard Watch supporters enjoy
52:54
exclusive benefits like early access to
52:56
our podcast, a better chance at having
52:58
your question answered on our podcast or
53:00
the Q&A and ad-free site experience.
53:02
And I do want to remind you that if you
53:03
have questions for this or any of our
53:05
podcast, please be sure to send those
53:07
in. You can send those in to
53:09
53:11
Specify the show that it is for as well
53:13
as any special pronunciation of your
53:14
name. You can also hit us on Discord. We
53:16
have the Q&A podcast questions channel
53:18
set aside for everybody.
53:20
Same rules apply. And if you are a
53:21
Patreon subscriber, as a special way of
53:23
saying thank you, we have the Patreon
53:24
Q&A podcast questions channel set aside
53:27
and we always look there first. It's
53:29
just that little extra bit that helps us
53:31
keep, you know, we say thank you. You
53:33
help us keep the lights on. We like
53:34
that. We appreciate you. We look there
53:36
first for But that, friends,
53:38
>> of the dark, guys. I'm really afraid of
53:40
it. Please just keep the lights on.
53:42
>> He really is.
53:43
Uh well, with that, friends,
53:45
we'll see you next time where everything
53:47
must be We must rip and tear until it's
53:49
done.
#Games