Up next in 10
We lead off the week with the history of the most important lore figure of all time to World of Warcraft: Millhouse Manastorm. From his incredibly auspicious beginnings to his even more auspicious middle, and the implausibly auspiciouser current machinations, Matt and Joe showcase this crucial figure in lore.
What’s after that is clearly less important, but eh, our listeners had some questions, so we might as well discuss them. There’s a thing about the interplay between Xal’atath and Sylvanas, a little thing about the origins of the San’layn (those Blood Elf vampires near Arthas), and how portals affect narrative immersion, but all that is kind of whatever next to the magnificence of Millhouse Manastorm!
If you want even more background story, we also have a guide to every Warcraft book in chronological order (for those of you who prefer reading that way): https://blizzardwatch.com/warcraft-books/
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0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:12
table free form discussion about lore in
0:13
your favorite media. I'm your host, Joe
0:16
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:18
from Blizzard Watch, and I've got a
0:19
stalwart companion with me on this wild
0:21
journey of questions that you have sent
0:23
our way, Matt Rossy. How you doing
0:25
today, Matt? I cannot tell you.
0:29
Well, that kind of ruins the whole thing
0:30
since this is an audio format.
0:34
>> Well, with that, folks, good night.
0:36
>> The entire podcast is me going, "This is
0:38
a secret that you cannot be trusted."
0:42
>> Uh, but
0:42
>> I will doom the world if I answer this
0:44
question.
0:45
>> Well, we're going to doom the world
0:46
because we're going to answer some
0:47
questions here from you, our lovely
0:49
listeners.
0:49
>> Get ready for piping hot doom.
0:51
>> Yes. Uh, if you have questions for this
0:53
or any of our podcasts, I do want to
0:55
remind you that you can go ahead and
0:56
send those in. podcast at
0:58
blizzardwatch.com is the email address,
1:00
we ask that you submit it with the
1:03
subject line containing what show you
1:04
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1:06
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1:08
inside the body of the email. If you
1:10
don't want to send us an email and you
1:11
want to hit us up on Discord, we have
1:12
two channels set aside. The Q and
1:14
Podcast Questions channel, which is open
1:16
for everybody. Same rules apply. Uh, and
1:18
if you are a Patreon subscriber, we have
1:19
the Patreon Q and podcast questions
1:21
channel. Uh, as our way of saying thank
1:23
you for helping us keep the lights on.
1:24
We look there first to see if there's
1:25
any questions or thematic episodes that
1:28
we could cover for you. Uh, we got
1:30
another one here. We we from last week,
1:32
Senpai uh had asked a couple questions
1:35
and uh now it's time to talk about
1:37
Milhouse Manatorm because Senpai was
1:41
very confused why Milhouse didn't die or
1:44
isn't dead. Mark, uh, how is he losing
1:47
very badly at strip poker to Valyira,
1:49
which it's actually Hearthstone, but
1:51
yes, he's lost all of his clothes uh in
1:53
the war within in Dornagal. Um, yeah,
1:56
he's he's a wild one. So, if you don't
2:00
know who Milhouse Mantorm is, uh,
2:02
Milhouse Jeramus Mantorm, because he has
2:05
a middle name, uh, which is just
2:07
absolutely hysterical to me, uh, is a no
2:09
mage that we first encountered in
2:11
Burning Crusade, uh, in Arcatraz in
2:15
Tempest Keep, where we were, you know,
2:17
breaking out bosses to kill them from
2:20
the prison. Um, Milhouse was one of the
2:23
ones that was captured. He was mistaken
2:25
for a very dangerous uh, uh, thing. This
2:28
is a was a prison run by Naru. Uh he was
2:32
mistaken as a dangerous thing who had
2:33
gotten aboard the ship uh and locked
2:36
away. So we free him. He takes forever
2:38
to drink his mana potions and get up to
2:40
speed to help us out. Uh but then he
2:42
eventually does. Uh I think he throws a
2:44
single fireball. Uh and then uh that's
2:48
we go our separate ways after defeating
2:49
Harbinger Skyus.
2:52
After that, we encounter him again in
2:54
Cataclysm, where he's decided to join a
2:56
cult, in particular, the Twilight
2:58
Hammers cult. Um, as a servant of the
3:01
old god, which nobody knows why he
3:03
decided to do this. Maybe the whispers
3:05
of of uh Skyus and the cell next door to
3:08
him. Uh, he decided that he was going to
3:10
go to Deep Home and start furthering the
3:12
advancements there where he's one of the
3:14
first things we encounter going packto
3:17
pack and, you know, powering his his
3:19
companions. And I'm air quoting that
3:21
very generously up uh with uh you know
3:25
his arcane specialty until a giant
3:28
corworm uh corabus or corborus excuse me
3:32
uh crashes through a wall and knocks him
3:35
over the ledge into whatever lays below
3:38
stone core uh which apparently was
3:41
merely a setback because then he comes
3:44
back in mist of panderia. This time he's
3:47
in the Brawlers Guild deciding to join
3:50
as a gladiator uh where you can go ahead
3:52
and fight Milhouse Mantorm. He then also
3:55
appears in Warlords of Drraanor because
3:57
of course he does. Uh he's actually a
3:59
garrison follower which until this I
4:02
didn't know because I never had an
4:04
Alliance garrison. Uh but if you get a
4:07
level two in and maybe he shows up in
4:09
the Horde side, I don't remember but I I
4:11
don't remember ever seeing him. Uh, but
4:13
if you get a level two in in your
4:14
garrison, he shows up. Uh, and then he
4:17
tells you that he's changed his ways,
4:19
uh, you he wants to complete, I think
4:21
it's a humanitarian project that he's
4:22
working on. Uh, and then he, uh, kind of
4:24
helps out at the fort and then he
4:27
appears back again in Legion because of
4:30
course he does. Uh,
4:32
>> one where he fights his wife.
4:33
>> No, no, that's Shadowlands. We're
4:35
getting there.
4:36
>> Okay.
4:36
>> Uh, so Milhouse actually shows up during
4:39
the third invasion of the Burning
4:40
Legion. Hard to believe that there's
4:42
three of them at this point. Uh looking
4:44
for the nightborn soul storm with soul
4:46
stone within the arkway. Um near this is
4:49
over near Felstone hold. He gets
4:51
captured because of course he does. This
4:52
seems to be something he's really good
4:53
at. um until the I believe it's a the
4:57
mage uh follow or the mage uh order hall
4:59
quest where you go get him uh when
5:01
they're looking for the soul stone cuz
5:03
it's the arc mage card which is the
5:05
player character uh at this time and
5:08
master of the mage order and Caligos uh
5:12
comes searching for corrupted arch mage
5:14
Vargo because of course it's Arc Mage
5:16
Vargo uh within the tunnels. They free
5:19
Milhouse. He joins forces. Um they then
5:22
go ahead and get Milhouse to join the
5:25
Tus Guard where he aids them in finding
5:28
the uh the soul stone. Uh so then yeah,
5:31
he's a champion uh for the arct mage.
5:34
But it's really really funny uh because
5:37
I think it ends with him I think he
5:38
sends an image of himself to the Violet
5:40
Hold uh battling with the adventurers
5:42
against his his wife Millisent Mantorm
5:45
uh who then manages to escape. Now, this
5:48
is where Matt was uh remembering because
5:49
in Shadowlands, we get to see him again,
5:52
which I thought was really really funny.
5:54
Uh the low
5:55
>> that's when there going into the the
5:57
deatha.
5:59
>> Yeah.
6:00
>> And doesn't he get doesn't uh Bon Samdi
6:02
send us to recoup a debt that both
6:04
Milhouse and his wife have somehow
6:06
incurred visa v him?
6:09
>> Yeah. So
6:10
>> yeah, we're where the the whole sort of
6:13
premise is Bamdi is trying to get his
6:14
mojo back so that he can fight against
6:17
um I can't remember the Moala um because
6:21
he needs his mojo in order to do it. But
6:23
in order to fight uh you know get his
6:26
mojo back, he's made deals with a bunch
6:29
of different beings uh that he's given
6:32
the mojo to uh for whatever reason. and
6:35
Milhouse Mantorm and his wife both
6:37
separately made a deal with Bon Somdi to
6:41
get some of his mojo and then were
6:43
either and this is the part that's
6:44
unclear because the dungeon is either a
6:49
all contained within the Shadowlands and
6:51
are all little pocket dimensions or bam
6:55
samdi which is I think this is maybe the
6:57
more likely one is able to open portals
7:00
uh back to the living world in specific
7:03
areas. So, we go, we confront Milhouse,
7:06
Mantorm, and his wife, uh, and
7:07
Millisent. We beat them up. They
7:10
eventually lament. We don't kill them.
7:13
Uh, Milhouse gives up the mojo
7:15
immediately, uh, before his wife can be
7:17
killed. Uh, because he claims, and it's
7:20
a very tender moment, uh, that he'll
7:22
take his wife any day of the week over
7:24
any silly old mojo or for
7:26
experimentation. Uh, and then we kind of
7:29
go on our way, and they sort of, uh,
7:31
talk about how they love each other. And
7:33
then that's the last we see of them in
7:35
Shadowlands until we get to Dragon
7:37
Flight, which again, this is really
7:40
funny to me, too. Uh, him and his wife
7:43
are in the duck cave in the upper
7:44
Frostlands in the Azure span. And
7:46
apparently Milhouse is a duck expert.
7:49
When you see him, there's a table with,
7:51
you know, all sorts of like weird books
7:53
and tomes and whatever. And he's just
7:54
surrounded by ducks. Uh, and this is
7:57
where you get like you do his quest,
7:58
which is the best spell ever is the name
8:00
of the quest. um where you get the tome
8:04
that teaches you how to polymorph things
8:06
into ducks. A very very important book
8:10
if I have to say so myself. Um and then
8:13
Sormy actually knows Milhouse and
8:16
actually uh and his wife and comments
8:18
that the the romance was explosive that
8:20
it was sparked by a flame that was quite
8:22
small. However, due to man uh Milhouse
8:24
having an uncar uncharacteristic crisis
8:27
of confidence, uh she sent adventurers
8:29
into the past to help him bring him and
8:32
his wife together. So, you literally go
8:34
back in time to help Milhouse get with
8:36
his wife because this is just the random
8:40
gnome that pops up in almost every
8:42
expansion and does something. What I
8:43
love about this is that it also means
8:45
that Sorodormi is fully willing to do
8:48
all sorts of violence to the laws of
8:50
time as long as there's like a romantic
8:53
option involved.
8:54
>> The other option
8:56
>> I mean the other option is that this is
8:57
a canon event that has to happen for the
8:59
universe to to to flow the way it is.
9:01
Because if you think about it,
9:02
>> you know, yeah, who else is going to be
9:04
doing these these gnome appearances if
9:06
not Milhouse? Well, not only we've got
9:08
that warlock who got himself killed at
9:10
the beginning of the burn of Wrath of
9:11
Lich King. The end of Wrath of Lich
9:12
King.
9:13
>> Yep.
9:13
>> Uh the one who's like summoning
9:16
>> you summons your
9:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean the other thing is
9:20
that you can consider it is that
9:21
Milhouse and his role in history are
9:24
canon events like he has to get captured
9:28
in uh Burning Crusade and he has to be
9:30
captured in the arcatraz to help us
9:32
defeat Skyus. And if he wasn't there,
9:34
that single fireball was the difference
9:35
between us living or dying. Or in
9:38
Cataclysm, he had to be the one that was
9:40
in the stone core cuz it had been
9:42
somebody else. They would have actually
9:44
been effective. Uh and the the cult
9:46
would have taken over the stone core. Um
9:49
you know, like there's little things
9:51
like that. Or in the Legion, like if he
9:53
hadn't gotten captured and then helped
9:55
us find the soul stone, maybe we
9:56
wouldn't have found the soul stone. um
9:59
and you know wouldn't have been able to
10:01
kill uh the dreadlord uh or
10:03
>> yeah the fact that he's effective so
10:05
many other times makes me wonder if the
10:07
reason he wasn't very effective uh when
10:10
he was working for you know in Cataclysm
10:12
is because he was literally being mind
10:14
controlled
10:16
because otherwise
10:18
>> we know that Skyris and the the type of
10:20
um of bug person they are are capable of
10:22
doing that right
10:23
>> we know that they're capable of doing
10:24
that because they did it in the raid um
10:26
so yeah I it's Not Skyus himself. It was
10:29
No, it was Harbinger Skyus, wasn't it?
10:31
>> Mhm. Mhm.
10:32
>> No,
10:33
>> that was the one
10:33
>> Harbinger Skyus is in Burning Crusade.
10:35
The one from from uh AQ40 was I can't
10:40
remember his name right now.
10:41
>> The big green one instead of the big red
10:43
one.
10:43
>> Yeah, the same thing. Same thing. But
10:46
yeah, it So, yeah, I I I honestly find
10:48
myself wondering if that's the reason he
10:49
was so ineffective there. Cuz he's
10:51
really not ineffective. He's not a joke.
10:54
He he he shows up in a lot of funny
10:57
situations and his life is a disaster,
11:01
but he's not a joke. Like he's pretty
11:03
effective. Like you just mentioned, he
11:05
helps to find the soul stone.
11:07
>> Yeah.
11:07
>> So yeah, it's
11:09
it's up there.
11:11
>> Yeah. But all that last we saw him, he
11:13
wasn't dead.
11:13
>> No. And and that that's the thing is
11:15
like he's never died. like it's it's one
11:18
of those things where like he comes back
11:19
and it's maybe a tongue-in-cheek moment
11:21
of you know uh you know rumors of my
11:24
death have been greatly exaggerated and
11:25
then he goes and loses cards to to Valy.
11:28
Um, but yeah, he's he's never dead. And
11:30
even when you see him in Shadowlands,
11:32
this was another thing that I think
11:33
people were confused about cuz everybody
11:35
was like, "Oh, well, clearly him and his
11:38
wife are dead now." And it's like, "No,
11:40
Bami doesn't make deals with the dead
11:44
with the exception of Hakkar, cuz Hakkar
11:46
is a weird edge case, but he definitely
11:48
makes deals with the living. That's what
11:51
he wants. He wants people in the, for
11:54
lack of a better term, again, the prime
11:56
material plane." So again, this is why I
11:59
think that it wasn't necessarily
12:02
us in the Shadowlands fighting him. I
12:04
think it was a portal that was opened up
12:07
uh that led us to it.
12:08
>> At one point he sends you out to get uh
12:11
Vulgen.
12:12
>> Yeah.
12:13
>> So, and you're definitely sent out to
12:15
get Vulg. So, you know, I don't I don't
12:17
think at all that it's intended to be
12:20
you're in the Shadowlands. I think it's
12:21
people who have made deals with him so
12:23
they can avoid the Shadowlands.
12:25
>> Yeah. or or people who make deals with
12:27
them, he has a conduit to them. Cuz the
12:29
one thing I thought was interesting um
12:32
at least going through the dungeon is
12:34
when you go to these these wings of the
12:37
dungeon, you're opening up two doors,
12:40
right? There's a door at the the
12:42
beginning that leads you from the main
12:44
temple area from the temple of Bam Somdi
12:47
through uh like it's contextually
12:50
relevant to wherever you're going.
12:52
there's either undead trolls or, you
12:54
know, you're you're going through like
12:56
the sewers of Mechagon or or whatever.
12:59
Um, until you get to another door that
13:01
then opens up, but there's a film over
13:03
the door. There's like almost like a
13:04
haze that looks like an instance portal.
13:06
It's not actually an instance portal in
13:09
game terms, but maybe it is a portal in
13:13
lore terms. It's never really been well
13:16
defined.
13:16
Yeah, it certainly feels like it because
13:18
you at one point you go to that like
13:20
troll city and get like the troll
13:22
weapon. So yeah, there's a lot of
13:24
different places he sends you to. Yeah.
13:26
And and it and again it seems like he
13:28
has that ability and from what we've
13:29
seen in him in the past that would sort
13:32
of track with him that like if you if
13:35
you have a piece of Bam Zambdi's mojo,
13:38
he always have an avenue to get to you
13:41
or or at least some tunnel or or path
13:44
which would also explain how he's able
13:46
to move so freely between the
13:49
Shadowlands and uh the prime material
13:52
when other lowa can't. Right? And it's
13:55
not because he's the lowa of death. He's
13:58
kind of a caretaker of the dead, but it
14:02
seems like there's more to it than than
14:04
that, which I think is funny. But
14:06
Milhouse never has died. Um, every every
14:09
single time that we think he's dead,
14:11
it's been offscreen. Um, and then every
14:14
time we we almost kill him, he either
14:19
laments or he, you know, he's done uh,
14:22
you know, at one one health or whatever
14:24
the case is and then that's it. He never
14:27
has actually died. So, he's wy enough to
14:29
stay alive, which I think is what the
14:31
confusion is. Again, we see because we
14:33
see him in Shadowlands, people think
14:34
he's dead. Um, but yeah, no, he's he's
14:37
just been alive the entire time, living
14:39
living his best or worst gnome life,
14:41
depending on how you view it.
14:44
Yeah, I wouldn't say it was a bad life,
14:46
but I would definitely say it is a bit
14:47
of a train wreath. Like, it's like, what
14:50
are you doing here now besides stripping
14:52
in front of Valyria? Like, what you your
14:55
wife is going to be mad, dude. I'm like,
14:57
I don't want it back. Um, okay. Yeah,
15:01
Milhouse has got stuff going on, but
15:04
he's Yeah, he's definitely never been
15:05
dead to my knowledge.
15:07
>> Yeah.
15:09
Uh, and I think that's going to answer
15:10
that unless there's anything else for us
15:12
to go with it. I mean, it's a pretty
15:13
quick and simple one that we've probably
15:14
spent more time on than we needed to,
15:16
but we're going to move on to the next
15:17
one, which comes from Rumple. Uh, I
15:19
wanted to know more about the Sand Lane
15:21
and if you think they will be an
15:23
available allied race in the future. It
15:25
would be funny to see a rivalry between
15:27
them and the Wargan. Uh, thank you so
15:29
much. You're my favorite podcast. A
15:31
thank you. Uh, Matt, who are the Sand
15:35
Lane?
15:36
>> Okay. Um when Kaleas went after um the
15:41
Lich King on behalf of our friend uh
15:45
Idon,
15:47
he brought a bunch of highly placed
15:49
blood elves with him.
15:52
>> Nobles,
15:52
>> right?
15:53
>> Yeah. Nobles, warriors. Um and the whole
15:57
deal with them was that they were like a
15:59
vanguard that he was using to to push
16:01
his way through the, you know, just the
16:04
waves and waves and waves of undead. But
16:07
ultimately, as you probably know, Kelas
16:10
retreated. He ran. He he didn't think we
16:13
could they could they could get to
16:15
Arthus and do the job. And in the
16:17
process, he left a whole bunch of his
16:19
people behind. This was one of the first
16:21
examples of of Keelas just straight out
16:24
noping out of a fight and leaving his
16:27
followers behind to suffer the brunt of
16:29
it. And what happened was Arthus has a
16:32
sense of humor,
16:34
and it's not a good sense of humor. It's
16:36
not it's not a haha funny joke. It's
16:38
more like a cruel mocking joke.
16:40
>> So he he looked at them and said, "Oh,
16:42
you thirst. You thirst for mana.
16:45
>> I can allow you to sate that thirst."
16:48
And he turned them into the sand lay. He
16:50
used the power of the helm of domination
16:52
and, you know, Frostorn and he made them
16:55
vampires.
16:56
Yeah. Uh, and Blood Queen Lanael was
16:59
actually a really well-placed uh night
17:02
elf magister. I'm a blood elf magister
17:04
and and warrior
17:06
>> like she was a she fought at Kale's
17:08
side. She was basically the leader of
17:10
the of his like you know this task force
17:14
that he put together out of highly
17:16
placed uh blood elves and when she got
17:19
turned into uh San Lane she was
17:22
extremely angry with Kelos.
17:24
>> Well you should also we should also
17:25
mention that she was also the bearer of
17:26
Quelar as well right like she was
17:29
>> yes she wasn't the first bearer of
17:31
Quelar. Uh, one of the things about Quo
17:33
Delar is that the people who wielded
17:35
that thing did not come to good to good
17:37
results. Um, the first one who w who
17:40
wielded it that we know of died trying
17:42
to stop the scourge uh, you know, when
17:45
they were invading Qualdon.
17:48
A Lethal then got it and she got ruined
17:53
um, in Ice Crown Citadel. And that's why
17:55
it's there when you you basically get
17:57
it, you know, you you get it from quests
18:00
in that area because it's where it ended
18:03
up. It ended up in Ice Crown. And in
18:05
fact, when you first see it, I think
18:07
it's on uh there's like a ghost of
18:09
Uthers trying to tell you not to use it
18:13
and then it comes popping out of nowhere
18:14
and starts attacking you and you have to
18:16
beat it up. Yes, you actually have to
18:18
beat up the sword. I think that happens
18:19
in the Halls of Reflection, right?
18:21
>> Uh yeah, may maybe. No, I don't think
18:23
it's the halls of reflection, but there
18:25
is like a whole quest line for it, too,
18:26
that I think it ultimately leads to you
18:29
purifying it in the Sunwell before you
18:31
can actually use it because it's
18:33
>> you do purify it. I don't remember if
18:34
it's the Sunwell or not, but you
18:35
definitely purify it.
18:36
>> Yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty sure the the
18:38
purification of qualar involves the
18:40
Sunwell, which is
18:41
>> it does because you you have to be able
18:43
to go in.
18:44
>> Yeah. And if you go in obviously blood
18:47
elves don't have to justify it like you
18:50
show up if you show up on anybody as as
18:51
like anybody else even horde if you show
18:53
up with qualar they try to take it from
18:55
you
18:57
like they're like thanks for bringing it
18:58
back give it here and the sword itself
19:01
is like no middle finger you not you're
19:04
not taking me from my chosen wielder uh
19:08
I didn't ask you where I was going to go
19:12
so that's cool um but yeah Lana's
19:15
Monthal's fate was basically an act of
19:19
like, you know, Arthus likes to do awful
19:22
things to people who fight him.
19:24
Like the whole deal with Sylvanas was
19:26
Arthus doing something awful to someone
19:29
cuz she almost beat him.
19:31
>> Mhm.
19:32
>> She made him mad. Lana's much the same.
19:34
>> He's a child.
19:35
>> She didn't have his what?
19:36
>> He's a child lashing out like
19:39
>> Yeah. He very much if you make him
19:40
embarrassed or or he makes you know he
19:43
thinks he was going to lose or whatever
19:45
he does he gets creative with the
19:47
torments.
19:49
>> I mean look at what he did to the uh the
19:52
Paladins when he was getting Luther's
19:53
ashes back.
19:54
>> Mhm.
19:55
>> You know the guy he's got a mean streak
19:58
and Lanael is one of the ones who
20:00
suffered the most. She unfortunately for
20:02
her I you can't tell like I don't know
20:04
if she she was being controlled the way
20:07
Sylvanas was cuz he's had the helm of
20:09
domination and he she's right there.
20:12
It's not like she's far away where she
20:14
can get some distance and possibly
20:16
regain control of herself. She's
20:18
literally right there
20:20
uh in um Ice Crown Citadel. So it's
20:24
which you know made out of sinite that
20:25
amplifies the helmet's power. It's quite
20:28
possible that she was never really in
20:30
control of herself when we saw her.
20:33
I don't remember if they ever actually
20:34
said that though.
20:37
>> I don't know.
20:38
>> Regardless, yeah, the Sand Lane after
20:40
that. I mean, they do they pop up again?
20:43
Like I I don't I haven't seen it yet.
20:44
>> So, there there is actually a whole
20:46
quest line later on that happens and and
20:48
I want to say it was Battle for Azeroth.
20:50
>> In Battle for Azeroth, like I do
20:52
remember. Oh yeah, this this actually
20:54
ties in with the other part of the
20:55
question, which is do we think they'll
20:57
ever be an allied race? They almost
20:59
were. Um or at least the the groundwork
21:03
for the intention for it was cuz after
21:06
uh Blood Queen Lanithl and the Sandlane
21:08
in Northrren were defeated. Um there was
21:12
Blood Prince Dreven uh who is a dark
21:15
fallen of the Sandlane uh who wanted to
21:18
join the Horde. And this is back during
21:21
when Sylvanas Windrunner uh was in
21:25
charge of the Horde as the Wararchief.
21:27
So, Battle for Azeroth. Um in order to
21:30
accept the Sandlane among them, they had
21:33
to complete a mission. Uh which was
21:37
essentially given a suicide mission to
21:38
them because nobody wanted them really.
21:42
And Sylvanas was just like, "Well,
21:43
you're either going to do some dirty
21:44
work for me and then I'll let you in or
21:46
you're going to die trying. Either way,
21:49
my problem is are solved. And that's
21:51
exactly what happened is they redied
21:53
trying uh because the
21:55
>> Did the boat get blown up?
21:57
>> Uh not even just the boat gets blown up.
21:59
Um it's it's the alliance literally has
22:02
a quest to go and kill uh the to end the
22:07
Sandlane threat. And Feather Moon gives
22:10
it to you.
22:11
>> Yeah. Well, because because when you
22:12
first meet the Darkf fallen, um the
22:15
Sandlane guys are are working for
22:18
Sylvanas in the area where where
22:20
Shandrris is working.
22:22
>> So they they thwart Shandress. And once
22:24
you thwart Shandra Southern Moon, you
22:26
might as well just you should have just
22:28
finished the job.
22:29
>> You better try and you better get her
22:31
dead because she does not forgive
22:33
things. This is a woman who who's made
22:35
maintaining a grudge an art form. So
22:38
yeah, once once that happened, it's it's
22:40
it's her working with uh the the head of
22:43
the alliance uh military at the time. I
22:45
can never remember his name, but he's
22:47
he's the one giving you the quests uh in
22:49
the harbor on in um what's the name of
22:53
the capital city of
22:55
uh Colaras?
22:57
Is it just Culturas City? I can't
22:59
remember the name.
23:00
>> Isn't it Boralis?
23:02
>> Yes, it is Boralis. Thank you. when you
23:04
go to the boat in Borealis, uh the
23:07
that's where you get the quest from
23:08
Shandras to go and just finally take out
23:10
the sand lane once and for all. Just we
23:13
don't want any more interference from
23:15
the sand lane. So yeah, that's why they
23:16
die. Although it doesn't mean they're
23:18
all dead. It just means the ones that
23:19
were working for him are dead.
23:20
>> Yeah. The the the other side of it, too,
23:22
is to keep in mind is canonically in
23:25
story, the Sandlane are not a, for lack
23:29
of a better term, prolific race. um
23:32
they're not like the forsaken in the
23:34
same way that they uh you know
23:37
potentially can get up or they broke
23:39
away from the scourge because even the
23:41
forsaken remember like in in the the
23:43
lore of the story they don't recreate or
23:45
procreate. They can't really do anything
23:50
to persevere and they're in a constant
23:53
state of of decay. There's literally
23:55
it's one of the whole motivations
23:58
between Sylvanas selling her soul to the
24:00
jailer essentially and doing what she
24:02
did is that the only people that have
24:05
come to accept her after she got turned
24:06
into this monstrosity by by Arthus are
24:10
falling apart quite literally. Uh
24:13
there's entire industries of old tailor
24:15
that are sewing bits and p of other
24:17
bodies onto forsaken to keep them going.
24:22
until
24:22
>> everyone is why your forsaken has like
24:24
stitches holding their jaw up.
24:26
>> It's literally it.
24:27
>> It's not their jaw. It's somebody else's
24:29
jaw that they just sewed onto you.
24:31
>> Yeah. Or or like and until the story,
24:34
which was the short story that happened
24:36
with Nathanos, uh he was an ugly little
24:39
wretch of a a forsaken uh that barely
24:43
had his mind returned to him after years
24:44
of decay and wandering the plague lands.
24:47
uh and until the soul of his nephew was
24:50
essentially consumed a i.e. thema of his
24:54
nephew, a paladin uh who had tons of
24:57
life and experience under his belt at
24:59
this point was transferred into
25:02
Nathaniel and Nathanos was reforged into
25:05
much the same type of undead that I
25:07
would classify uh Kalia into an undead
25:11
in actual pure stasis outside the cycle.
25:14
Uh he then looked into his, you know,
25:18
pseudo good-looking boyfriend mode
25:21
essentially. Um
25:22
>> that was his nephew. That's his nephew's
25:24
body.
25:25
>> Yeah. Well, or at least at least the
25:28
>> I think it's the actual body because it
25:30
looks like the guy like Nathanos was a
25:33
shriveled up prune of an undead. He was
25:35
he was the the model that made even like
25:37
what's his name? Uh yeah, he he was just
25:41
really, you know, wrinkly to for lack of
25:44
a better word. So I think it is the the
25:46
nephew's body. I know that they used
25:48
hisma, but I also think they just
25:50
straight up shoved his his spirit into
25:53
that body once it was dead. Once they
25:55
killed it to take the out. It was
25:57
certainly implied that that's what was
25:58
going on.
25:59
>> Well, I mean, the implication in the
26:00
story was that the body next on the slab
26:02
next to Nathanos was dust when it was
26:05
done. So, it's entirely possible that
26:06
the the flesh was transferred.
26:08
Regardless, though, um the Sandlane are
26:11
even fewer in number than that when when
26:15
Calf went and brought these these
26:18
highranking magesters and warriors and
26:21
nobles with him because again, nobles
26:24
were high class magic users at the time.
26:27
Um
26:28
there weren't a lot of them. It was it
26:30
was like a small coar of followers.
26:33
Imagine he had like a raid group.
26:35
>> Yeah, like 40.
26:36
>> He probably had like a 40man raid group
26:38
of people.
26:39
>> Uh, and also keep in mind too that like
26:41
he probably used mass teleport, which
26:44
it's weird to talk about in that terms,
26:46
but mass teleport was a canonical arch m
26:49
arch mage spell in Warcraft 3 that
26:52
according to lore, Kelas knew, but it
26:55
had a limit. Mass teleport had a like a
26:58
like it could only they even talked
26:59
about it in like some of the earlier
27:01
stories where there was a finite number
27:04
of of uh physical bodies that could be
27:06
transported by an arch mage even one of
27:08
of incredible power and so he could
27:11
probably only bring a handful of people
27:13
with him and those are the ones he
27:15
abandoned and those are the ones that
27:16
were raised in the sand lane. Now, like
27:18
to Matt said, they might not all be dead
27:20
or red or completely eviscerated,
27:23
evaporated, but the likelihood of there
27:27
being enough to justify playable race,
27:30
at least canonically, unless they decide
27:33
to change how it goes, not likely. Now,
27:37
that said, they do have a I guess we'll
27:42
call them a spiritual cousin and uh
27:46
we've seen them. We've we've dealt with
27:49
them. Uh as a matter of fact, one of
27:51
them currently owes us several favors
27:53
after usurping their father. Uh, but the
27:56
Venthier are essentially they're they're
28:00
eventually Sand Lane that in in really
28:03
every capacity except they don't have
28:05
bat wings. But like if you look
28:08
>> the fact that the jailer was working
28:10
with
28:11
uh
28:13
um Denathrius
28:14
>> and the San Lane and but the San Lane
28:17
were created by the Lich King
28:20
were using the helm of domination which
28:22
as we know is the jailer was the
28:24
jailer's conduit to use domination magic
28:27
through onto Azeroth. It's very likely
28:30
the San Lane were made as copies of the
28:34
Venth because
28:36
>> using much as they did with the spirit
28:38
healers.
28:38
>> Yeah. Because we know
28:40
>> Go ahead.
28:40
>> I was going to say the Death Knights
28:41
were not surprised to see the Venthier,
28:44
>> right? Like and the the Death Knights
28:46
were essentially part and parcel to the
28:48
Lich King's will and like they were just
28:51
not surprised. It was like, "Yep, okay,
28:52
you know, this is this is fine. We know
28:54
we know they exist. Okay, let's move
28:55
on." So, it wouldn't be surprising if
28:58
that was the blueprint. Yeah. like like
29:00
Arthus in and Nerzul in the helm as the
29:04
Lich King being that conduit from the
29:06
jailer just made copies maybe
29:09
subconsciously made copies but made
29:11
copies.
29:12
>> Well, I mean it's interesting because if
29:13
you think about it, Nerzul was always a
29:16
copycat when it came to necromancy.
29:18
>> Oh yeah. The reason death knights exist
29:20
is because someone else namely good old
29:23
Guldon came up with the basic idea and
29:26
Nirzul was like, "Yeah, I'll steal
29:28
that." Nirzul's like a like he didn't
29:31
understand necromancy very well because
29:33
he was a shaman. He wasn't this death
29:36
guy, but he was doing his best with the
29:38
powers he'd been forced to have. So, in
29:41
a way, it's very like him to just crib
29:45
somebody else's idea because he done
29:47
that already. He did it with the death
29:49
knights. Why wouldn't he do it with the
29:50
Sandlane?
29:53
>> Yeah. But again, coming back to it,
29:55
unless there is a a reason for the Sand
29:58
Lane to become an allied playable race,
30:01
um I like and I don't see a story
30:04
justification that would make a whole
30:05
lot of sense, but again, it's a game.
30:07
They could wake up tomorrow and decide
30:09
vampires and find a reason to make it
30:11
work. Like there's an orb that turns
30:13
them into vampires. Tada. Or a rift
30:16
opened from the world of sanctuary to
30:18
here and all of a sudden now there's
30:19
blood magic. Yay.
30:21
Who knows? Uh but as of right now,
30:23
>> you could also like you could also just
30:25
straight up say that the the Benthier
30:27
are creating them.
30:29
>> Yeah.
30:30
>> You know, the vener could show up and
30:31
make them because they they're like a
30:32
rebel faction that wants to bring uh
30:35
Denathrius back. So, they're making, you
30:36
know, they're turning people into into
30:38
San Lane, like to enslave them.
30:41
>> You could do whatever you wanted.
30:42
>> Yeah, there there's a ton of options,
30:44
but regardless, um, at least as of right
30:48
now, storywise,
30:50
it it is not likely that we will see
30:53
them as a playable race. It seems like
30:55
they are either very close to
30:57
eradication if not outright. The last of
31:00
the the Senlane have died when Dreven
31:03
passed when he was killed essentially.
31:06
So
31:07
yeah, I I I know that's probably not the
31:09
answer you're looking for. Uh but again,
31:12
maybe things will change and maybe we'll
31:14
get to be vampires inside of WoW again.
31:16
Uh who knows? But I think we're going to
31:19
move on to our next one which is coming
31:21
from Alex. Uh, I was running March
31:23
Unquel Donas with my guild and noticed
31:25
the trash mobs channeling into Lura are
31:28
called Stigian heralds. With the War
31:30
Within's last patch bringing back Venari
31:32
and Stigia and considering that Sylvanas
31:35
appears after Lura's death, I think
31:38
we're past the point of spoiler warnings
31:40
on there, but I'll still put one at the
31:41
beginning of the episode anyway. Uh, do
31:43
you think this indicates Zelat was
31:45
planning on Sylvanas to appear despite
31:48
what she says? Um, straight up no. Um,
31:51
I'll give a more complicated answer, but
31:53
I'll let Matt go first. But no, I don't
31:54
think I think Zealot did not actually
31:57
plan for Zanis to appear.
31:59
>> Vigian is an adjective used by fancy
32:01
talking people to mean darkness. Um, it
32:05
it doesn't literally mean the realm of
32:07
Stigia. Like, for one thing, Stigia is,
32:10
you know, originally the most re the
32:12
most
32:14
I'm trying to figure out the right word
32:15
for something that is the antecedent of
32:17
all this stuff. I think I'm going to go
32:18
with the antecedent. The first
32:20
anticedant to Stigia you used that way
32:23
uh was Victorian era just straight up
32:25
using it that way just you know Stigian
32:26
means darkness the Stigian abyss and
32:30
then it became a country in Roberty
32:33
Howard stories and since then it's been
32:35
pretty much go-to for evil weirdness.
32:38
>> Yeah, it's it's the fifth layer of the
32:39
nine layers of hell and Dungeons and
32:40
Dragons.
32:42
Like just throwing it out there.
32:46
So yeah, basically it's it's just it's
32:49
not there's no trickery here. It's just
32:52
it's an it's an adjective, you know,
32:55
that's all that it is. I I I'm not
32:57
saying that they couldn't come up with
32:58
some cool stuff tying them together. I'm
33:00
just saying they don't have to. Yeah.
33:02
And and I agree in the same thing. And I
33:04
think in the terms of like Venari and
33:07
being, you know, any reference to
33:08
Stigia, Venari operates in the shadows
33:11
and everybody that Venari works with
33:13
also operates in the shadows. When you
33:15
first meet Venari, Venari is in the
33:17
shadows, literally in the mall, hiding
33:20
uh from other cartels and anybody else
33:23
that would be interested in what Venari
33:25
was working on. So like having Venari
33:28
call, you know, her her accompllices or
33:31
their accompllices, you know, Stigian
33:34
XYZ
33:36
doesn't necessarily mean that uh the
33:38
Sigian heralds are related. And like
33:40
Matt said, think of them as just heralds
33:42
of darkness because that's essentially
33:44
what they are in in terms of
33:46
>> little chunks of darkness stealing
33:48
light. Not a big deal.
33:49
>> Yeah. No, no big deal at all. Nothing to
33:51
see here. Um but in terms of Zelat
33:54
expecting of Sylvanas, I don't think so.
33:57
And I think part of that goes back to
33:59
the cinematic that played when we go
34:02
with uh Erator to talk to Sylvanas. Do
34:06
you not think that the entire time Zalat
34:09
was watching what Erator has been doing?
34:12
Like it has been a flatout stated thing
34:17
since the war within cuz Zalot doesn't
34:20
lie. Zath doesn't need to lie. Zotath
34:23
omits. But in the book that we reviewed
34:27
uh prior to the release of Midnight, all
34:30
throughout the war within and uh
34:32
throughout the campaign of Midnight, it
34:34
is painfully apparent that Zalat has
34:37
been stalking Eer and his family uh
34:41
because they are integral to what her
34:44
plans are. You know, the thing of
34:47
Terellion freaking out is planned. It's
34:49
something she expects. She knows what
34:52
blindness is. There's a reason she
34:54
presses so hard against the light. She
34:57
knows how to manipulate that.
35:00
Uh she knows the fear and darkness that
35:04
lays within Yria that she can prey on
35:08
that she can manipulate. And she knows
35:10
that Erator is a child sort of stuck
35:15
between two raging storms of personality
35:19
that is too afraid to live their own
35:21
life up until this moment. But you bet
35:24
your bottom dollar that she's paying
35:26
attention to what Erator is doing
35:27
because Erator is dangerous. He is not
35:31
as easy to manipulate as his father or
35:34
mother are. He has a way of stepping
35:38
back and looking at things from a much
35:41
more measured standpoint, which again,
35:44
go back through the campaign, go back
35:46
through the book, is dangerous because
35:49
what does Alat need in order to get what
35:52
she wants? Strong emotions.
35:56
Emotions cloud judgment. They make
35:59
people make terrible decisions. Looking
36:02
at you, Locust Walker. Um,
36:05
she knows how to use that. She knows how
36:07
to play the heartstrings.
36:10
You go with Erator literally to find
36:12
Sylvanas and talk with her. And what
36:15
does Sylvanas say? My job's here. I got
36:18
stuff to do. You're going to have to
36:19
deal with it yourself.
36:21
I'm not going to do this. And there's
36:23
this moment in the cut scene where she's
36:25
looking over her shoulder, but it's the
36:28
opposite shoulder of where Erator is.
36:31
And until we started talking, until you
36:33
sent this question in, by the way, Alex,
36:35
I didn't really go back and and give it
36:37
a second thought until this and I
36:39
started saying, you know, who's a one of
36:42
the best trackers, possibly the best
36:45
tracker in Windrunner history? Sylvanas.
36:50
It's been established through countless
36:52
stories, countless quests, the books
36:55
that we've read on it. She was the best
36:57
hunter and tracker out of her entire
36:59
family. She literally saves her older
37:02
sister from being killed by being out
37:06
predatored by by a giant lynx. Like,
37:11
yeah.
37:12
>> Yeah. Larry always admitted that
37:13
Sylvanas was better at that kind of
37:15
thing.
37:15
>> Yeah. She was the better ranger, hands
37:17
down. She knew it. And she knows at this
37:21
point the M like the back of her hand.
37:24
She spent uh an inordinate amount of
37:26
time. And again, we talked about how
37:27
time passes differently inside of the
37:28
MA. uh finding these souls and sending
37:32
them back to the proper places. You
37:34
cannot tell me that if Zalot was peeking
37:36
in on her, which likely she knew she
37:39
was, that Sylvanas wouldn't have noticed
37:42
and told Erator exactly what she needed
37:45
Zalat to hear because yes, even in that
37:49
final scene, she says, "There are ways."
37:52
And he's like, "You said you weren't
37:53
coming." And she goes, "You said Silver
37:56
Moon needed its rage general,
37:58
right?" Like Matt and I talked about
38:00
this before, that sense of duty, there's
38:02
no way that personality Sylvanas would
38:04
let that rest to begin with. So that
38:06
scene when we saw that first cut scene
38:08
uh and that that interaction, it didn't
38:11
make sense to me because it seemed out
38:13
of character for Sylvanas
38:16
and now it makes sense at least in
38:18
context of this. So I don't think Zealot
38:20
expected on Sylvanas appearing because I
38:22
think Zalot took Sylvanas at her like
38:25
for lack of a better term at her word.
38:27
She's got work to do. She's got stuff to
38:30
do. And she can't leave.
38:32
>> Another way to put it is simply this.
38:34
Sylvanas is a better liar.
38:38
>> Yeah, that's a terrible liar.
38:42
>> South is not a good liar. She's very
38:44
good at manipulating people, but she
38:45
doesn't lie. And so to a certain degree,
38:49
I think Sylvanas is simply more
38:50
creative.
38:51
>> Mhm. Um, and in addition to having been
38:54
I'm not going to say she's deadlier than
38:56
Yaria. Yria was a much better killer
38:59
than Sylvanas. Ya, you want something
39:01
dead, Yria is your person, but Sylvanas
39:05
was the better ranger.
39:06
>> She's the better hunter.
39:07
>> I mean,
39:08
>> yeah, she's better at all the things you
39:10
need to do to be the ranger general.
39:12
She's better at politics among her
39:14
people.
39:15
>> There was one notable blind spot. Um,
39:18
she's better at, like you pointed out at
39:20
the time that she saved her sister.
39:22
She's better at finding a Corey,
39:24
tracking it, and thinking like it.
39:27
>> Yeah.
39:27
>> And that's the thing. I think she knew
39:29
full well, even if she couldn't sense
39:33
anything, like if she was thinking,
39:35
looking around and like, I can't tell
39:36
that anything is observing me, but I'm
39:38
going to assume she is because she would
39:41
be, wouldn't she?
39:43
>> Yeah. Exactly. Right. She She
39:44
understands the mindset.
39:46
>> Yeah. you're, you know, in a way like
39:49
the void is actually terrified of
39:51
Sylvanas and always has been because she
39:56
can think like a void creature without
39:59
being one.
40:00
>> Well, not even that. She can think
40:01
better than a void creature. Look, go
40:03
back to the go back to the three.
40:04
>> She can anticipate them. Yeah. Oh, no.
40:06
Absolutely. But she can anticipate what
40:08
they're going to do. She isn't like most
40:10
people who are confronted with the void
40:12
and are like, you know, it's madness.
40:13
There's all these different truths.
40:14
She's like, no, forget that. What is
40:16
their objective?
40:17
>> It doesn't matter how they think. What
40:20
do they want?
40:21
>> Yeah.
40:21
>> How do they want to get it? What can I
40:24
do to prevent them from getting it? It's
40:26
all, you know, you you said before
40:28
strategic. She's both strategic and
40:30
tactical in how she thinks. She thinks
40:33
big picture and then she breaks it down
40:35
to small picture. It's like having
40:38
like honestly of all the characters in
40:40
fiction, the one that she reminds me the
40:41
most of is Captain Kirk
40:44
where she'll lie and she's good at it.
40:47
She'll, you know, she can understand
40:49
what the enemy needs to believe. She can
40:52
play on what she knows they believe.
40:56
Like they, you know, if if Zalot wants
40:59
to feel secure, I'll let her feel secure
41:01
until I don't let her feel secure
41:03
anymore. And now, now that she's not
41:06
going to feel secure, I don't have to do
41:07
anything. We may never see, we may not
41:09
see Sylvanas again this expansion
41:12
because she's done all she needs to do.
41:15
>> All she needs to do is put the idea that
41:17
she might be there in there. And now,
41:19
Zalot, being the compulsive plotter she
41:21
is, is going to be coming up with 17
41:23
different plans for what to do if Sylvan
41:25
shows up and wasting time on that. Well,
41:28
it also I think it goes even a step
41:30
further than that too is she's she's
41:32
accomplished something that no other
41:35
character has done so far. She rattled
41:38
Zalot, right? Like Zalot's reaction to
41:42
her showing up uh you know is as air
41:45
quote and measured as it was. She barely
41:48
moved her head out of the way. Barely
41:50
moved her head out of the way of that
41:51
arrow. And that look on her face was not
41:54
a I'm amused because I didn't calculate
41:56
this. It's how did I miss this? How did
42:00
I not understand that this was going to
42:02
happen? How did I not see all the chess
42:04
pieces on the on the board? And now
42:07
she's in a point where this is the first
42:09
time that Zalot has ever had this happen
42:12
to her.
42:13
>> Yeah. I think to a certain degree spent
42:16
a lot of time being manipulated pretty
42:17
expertly by Zalat.
42:18
>> Oh yeah.
42:19
>> But Yria was always the one with her
42:22
heart on her sleeve. It was the one
42:24
like, "My family is dead. I will get
42:25
bloody revenge. Sylvanas was always
42:27
like, look, bloody revenge isn't going
42:29
to serve our people. We have to serve
42:31
our people.
42:32
>> Mhm.
42:33
>> That's that's what I'm going to do. And
42:36
even here when she says, you said that
42:38
Sylvanas, you said that Silver Moon
42:39
needed its ranger general, like she
42:42
still thinks of herself as the ranger
42:43
general.
42:44
>> Yeah,
42:45
>> there's no question that is that's her
42:47
identity. Like especially now that she's
42:49
had all of her soul recombined. So yeah,
42:52
I think it's definitely a case of this
42:54
is the the the one win runner who is not
42:57
going to fall for your your line because
42:59
she's already had people better than you
43:00
do it, you know? Yeah. And and and now
43:04
Zealot is on the back foot for the first
43:06
time. Like even though the end of the
43:08
the raid is an air quote she won moment,
43:12
um she really didn't because the we
43:17
stopped the dark well. we stopped that
43:20
source of power. And that wasn't, I
43:24
don't think, in her plans. She claims
43:26
she got what she wanted and she
43:28
disappeared into the thing before the
43:29
the well collapsed. And we don't know
43:31
where she wound up afterwards. The
43:33
assumption is that she's making her way
43:34
towards the center of Azeroth, blah blah
43:36
blah. But now she has to worry. Now she
43:39
has to worry that she's missing pieces,
43:42
that she doesn't see everything, that
43:44
her time trapped in a mortal body or
43:47
being reborn into a mortal body, uh, or
43:50
or mortal shell, whatever you want to
43:52
call it, um, you know, has dulled her
43:55
connection to the void that she can't
43:57
see the possibilities like she used to,
44:00
and she's now potentially going to make
44:02
mistakes as a result of that. Sylvanas
44:05
has accomplished again what Matt said
44:07
here. this this such a huge blow with
44:10
one arrow. That's all it took,
44:14
right? And I love that. I absolutely
44:16
love that because now it it does two
44:19
things. It shows that Zalot is not all
44:23
knowing and plan and and has a plan for
44:26
everything. It shows that she is
44:28
fallible. Uh, and it also shows that
44:32
Sylvanas,
44:34
while
44:35
it still being the process of feeling
44:38
her own redemption,
44:40
is not going to be the sole savior of
44:43
Azeroth. She's not going to have that be
44:46
her redemption moment. But she has
44:48
passed that torch on to Erator, the
44:52
redeemer, the one who's going through
44:56
this whole process of earning his
44:57
namesake, right? They're finally going
44:59
to be a redeemer. Go redeem something,
45:01
man.
45:02
>> He's already started, right? Like we
45:03
we've already seen a bunch of this
45:04
expansion. He brought the elves back
45:07
together. It was his idea. It was his
45:09
plan, right? Like he's already starting
45:11
to do that stuff. And now Sylvanas is
45:13
like, "Yeah, okay, cool." Uh you keep
45:15
doing that, nephew. I'm going to go keep
45:17
doing what I need to do. Um and then
45:20
that sly little look of there are always
45:22
ways. She can come back if she needs to.
45:25
She knows she can. Um, but also the way
45:28
she said it that it takes a great toll.
45:31
She didn't explain what that toll was,
45:33
what it it what it cost probably inma or
45:36
of herself. Um, and she's keeping it
45:39
>> for that matter. I mean, the thing that
45:41
gets me is I don't think she's there at
45:43
this point trying to find the souls of
45:46
people who are lost because of her. I
45:48
think she's there looking for Nathanos.
45:50
>> Oh, 100%. A thousand%. and taking time
45:53
away to go do this is more time where
45:56
Nathanos could be who knows
45:59
and I think that's the real problem for
46:01
her is that you know
46:02
>> well and we know that Barry because
46:03
>> what about Sylvanas she's always been
46:05
true to that you know he's mine
46:08
>> well and not only that he not only is it
46:10
that he's mine it's a he understood me
46:13
in a way that others did not including
46:17
her own family.
46:19
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that
46:20
bit. I love that bit at the end of
46:23
Shadowlands where she finds out that
46:26
Nathanos is dead and she's like
46:29
instantly no longer interested in this
46:31
fight.
46:32
>> Yeah. Because she doesn't know what the
46:34
jailer did with his soul.
46:35
>> Yeah. I need to go confront my boss. Uh
46:38
and so, you know, uh yeah, it's just a
46:41
great scene for for every character
46:42
involved in it. Um
46:45
but yeah, I I did I did like what
46:47
they've done with her so far. I also
46:49
hope that they do kind of keep her in
46:52
the background. I I think that the the
46:54
idea that Artor is the one who's going
46:56
to be carrying the weight and she just
46:57
showed up to
47:00
basically plant some seeds. I like the
47:02
idea of that. Yeah.
47:06
Well, I think we can move on. I think
47:08
there is a time for one more question.
47:10
Uh I am going to steal it here and then
47:12
I'm going to try to force Liz to answer
47:14
it on the main podcast as well because I
47:15
think it's fun. Uh, but this one comes
47:17
from Meron, which is, uh, I'm an
47:21
immersionoriented player, and what I
47:23
love most about WoW is being able to
47:25
freely explore the worlds by world by
47:27
flying or riding between zones. Since
47:30
Kata, we've had more and more portal
47:32
only zones like Deep Home, Argus, Natar,
47:36
and all of Shadowlands. I get it for
47:38
other planes or planets. That makes
47:40
sense. But in Midnight, with only two
47:42
connected zones and the others locked
47:43
behind portals, I find myself avoiding
47:46
those portal only areas entirely because
47:48
it breaks that sense of boundless
47:49
exploration. That's also why I barely
47:52
enjoyed exploring in Shadowlands, but
47:54
loved it in Dragon Flight, uh, thanks to
47:56
how seamless everything felt. So, my
47:59
question is, do portal lock zones hurt
48:02
immersion? Am I overthinking it, or is
48:04
it just part of the game? I want to know
48:05
your opinions on this. I'll let you go
48:07
first, Matt. Do you have any opinions on
48:09
on portal log zones?
48:13
>> Yes, actually I do. Um I
48:17
I think the phrase this hurts immersion
48:20
is too subjective. Uh because
48:23
everybody's immersion threshold, for
48:26
lack of a better word, is individual to
48:28
them. Uh I think both Joe and I have the
48:33
kind of we've been writers long enough.
48:36
We've written things enough in our lives
48:38
and we've we've done enough criticism to
48:40
understand that there are things that
48:43
are just devices that get used in
48:45
fiction. But for other people that
48:48
wouldn't fly for them like like what
48:50
you're describing and it's completely
48:52
valid that you feel that way. The fact
48:55
that I don't feel it, but I know that I
48:59
feel it for a bunch of different
49:00
reasons. I I think one of the examples
49:02
of a kind of thing that that would hurt
49:04
immersion for a lot of people but
49:05
doesn't for me is if I'm watching say
49:09
I'm watching a movie and a character
49:12
shows up and they're played by a very
49:14
famous actor. I know immediately that
49:17
that very famous actor unless this is a
49:19
cameo that very famous actor is going to
49:21
be something important because you would
49:24
not have hired him or her.
49:26
>> Yeah. if you were, you know, and these
49:28
are the kind of things that it just for
49:30
some people that's not an issue. For
49:32
other people it's like bump right in my
49:34
head. Like immediately I'm like, okay,
49:37
James Bond is the detective and we've
49:39
got, you know, Captain America over
49:41
here, possibly a murderer and this, you
49:43
know, the other character is not that
49:45
important. I, you know, they wouldn't
49:46
cost as much. And that's not that's not
49:50
literary analysis. It's pattern
49:52
recognition.
49:53
I think what you're talking about, does
49:56
it provide an obstacle for most people
50:00
to fully let go? Yes.
50:04
The problem is that for some people like
50:07
yourself and lots of other people, like
50:08
I think it would probably bother my
50:10
wife. Um that portal thing, the not
50:13
being able to just go there, always, you
50:16
know, always being unable to just travel
50:18
from one place to another uh without,
50:20
you know, intermediary alluding stages.
50:22
that's gonna be a real problem for them.
50:25
I have so many other things that break
50:28
for me in this game. Like like I've
50:30
spent like hours
50:32
looking at mail delivery and trying to
50:34
figure out how that works. How did I get
50:36
mail from Argus?
50:38
>> Mhm.
50:39
>> Is there is there a little tiny portal
50:41
in the mailbox?
50:43
>> Stamp puzzle does not explain how that
50:44
works even when we get to Tazesh.
50:47
>> Yeah. It's just one of many things. The
50:50
fact that there's a train between
50:51
Stormwind and Iron Forge
50:54
and it's it's fast enough to get you
50:57
there in like it's a bullet. Do you
50:58
realize it's a bullet train?
51:00
>> Mhm.
51:00
>> That training is moving, guys. It's not
51:03
that's not normal train speeds. They're
51:05
all the way on the other side of a
51:07
mountain range. A big one. It is not
51:11
small potatoes. This is like getting on
51:14
a train in like New York City and like
51:18
five minutes later getting off in
51:20
Washington DC.
51:22
You traveled the heck of a distance in
51:24
that amount of time. It and I'm like,
51:28
how does this thing not provide? It's
51:30
like a pneumatic tube. How is it not?
51:33
How is it even getting there? What what
51:36
is propelling this thing? Obviously,
51:38
it's magic, but you can't just say
51:40
magic, magic, magic over and over again.
51:41
you're like, "Okay, how does the magic
51:43
work?" Like, "What's the magic doing?
51:45
Give me something here." But not
51:48
everybody is like that. So, that's why I
51:50
say it's it's a subjective thing. But I
51:53
definitely agree that it's as a just as
51:57
a game player, it makes it hard for me
52:00
to feel like I'm in control of my
52:02
character because I can't get to this
52:04
place without
52:07
this portal. And it's one of the reasons
52:09
that really bugged me about, you know,
52:12
even Cultteras.
52:13
I mean, there's no boat to Cultteras.
52:17
The boat would still have had a loading
52:18
screen. Why can't I take a boat?
52:21
You know, we were willing to accept
52:24
boats across, you know, from Calumdor to
52:27
the Eastern Kingdoms and boats to also
52:29
because cuz that was just a boat we
52:31
could go to. It didn't have the swirly
52:33
portal thing. It you know what I mean?
52:36
like it it's still objectively the same
52:38
thing mechanically. It just didn't feel
52:41
the same. And I'm okay with it. Like I I
52:44
believe I totally agree with the
52:45
statement about if it's another plane of
52:47
existence like the Shadowlands or it's
52:50
like another world like Argus, as long
52:52
as there's open world exploration once
52:54
you get to that place.
52:57
Like if you can travel from one part of
53:00
the the zones in the Shadowlands to all
53:03
the rest of the zones,
53:05
it's not doesn't feel as bad. I mean,
53:08
there's there's still portal jumping in
53:10
the Shadowlands, but there's also
53:11
physical spaces that are connected. You
53:13
there's open world exploration, and I
53:16
really thought Argus was very a huge
53:19
It's like what, three zones, and you
53:20
could travel through the whole area. I
53:23
didn't have a problem with any of those.
53:26
it's another it's another plane of
53:27
existence or it's another world or what
53:28
have you. But it does feel weird when
53:30
it's like you have to take a portal to
53:32
go to an island. It's like the island is
53:35
right off the coast. Why can't we just
53:36
take a boat to it or something? I don't
53:38
know. I I get where you're saying. I I
53:41
don't have the trouble that you have,
53:43
but I do understand why you'd have it
53:45
and I do I do think it's reasonable to
53:48
say, "Hey, you know, you're kind of
53:50
busting everything up into chunks." even
53:52
though you understand in a game
53:54
mechanics sense or a game design sense
53:56
why this would might be preferable. For
53:59
one thing, you don't want the computer
54:00
trying to load every continent when it
54:03
loads one continent. Um, back in Burning
54:05
Crusade, and I know Joe can talk about
54:07
this, but back in Burning Crusade,
54:09
people didn't realize that when you were
54:11
doing the the Blood Elf or Dani zones,
54:14
you were not on Azeroth.
54:17
You were actually in Outland in terms of
54:19
the servers. you were, you know, those
54:22
zones were considered part of the
54:24
Outland server. That's why there's a
54:25
portal between uh Quail, you know,
54:28
Quailsauce and, you know, the the
54:31
Northern Eastern Kingdoms. The portal is
54:33
there because you're technically going
54:34
to another instance.
54:37
>> Yeah. And that's all I got.
54:39
>> No, I mean it's and it's been a thing
54:41
that's been around forever, right? We
54:43
even even vanilla WoW had it. I mean,
54:45
going between continents is going from
54:47
one instance server to another instance
54:49
server. Um, it's but for us to say
54:53
whether or not you're overthinking it,
54:55
we can't, right? We're not you. We don't
54:58
know what your thresholds are or aren't
55:02
us. I mean, me personally,
55:04
zero issue with it. It doesn't really
55:06
bother me at all. Uh, and I I the reason
55:10
it doesn't bother me, or at least the
55:12
reason that I I would say is because I I
55:16
tend to be a not MMO immersion player.
55:21
Uh, it's not a thing for me. I like view
55:24
it as a puzzle more than anything else
55:27
because I don't think it's meant to be
55:30
an immersive experience because if it
55:32
was I would go absolutely bonkers by the
55:35
fact that I don't have the ability to
55:37
say no to certain quests and nothing I
55:40
do nothing I do affects the outcome of
55:44
what's happening because it's a
55:45
predefined series of events. Right.
55:48
>> Yeah. And that's something that I mean
55:50
Joe and I have talked about for a long
55:51
time because there's specific quests e
55:54
each one of us has specific quests we're
55:56
like I I don't want to do this
55:58
>> you know and so the only option you have
56:01
is to avoid it and that's kind of feels
56:04
bad because now I didn't get to play the
56:06
content I I had to just not do it. So
56:09
yeah, there's there's a lot of stuff
56:12
like that that is that's one of the
56:14
reasons why I I kind of never really
56:17
been an immersion player myself for the
56:19
same reason. I mean, if I couldn't the
56:22
closest we ever got to meaningful choice
56:24
uh in in a WoW quest was like quest.
56:28
>> Yeah.
56:30
>> Yeah. And and and I'm with you on that
56:32
one, right? Like to me that breaks
56:34
immersion a lot more than I have to go
56:36
through a portal to to go to the tram or
56:39
or something along those lines. Um
56:42
so but that's just me and again like I
56:46
approach MMOs from the idea of there is
56:50
a limitation on how immersive it can be
56:54
because of the nature of the game. Now,
56:56
if they were to make a singleplayer
56:59
storydriven experience in the WoW
57:03
universe, uh, you know, Allah Mass
57:05
Effect or something like that, then I
57:08
would expect it to be a whole hell of a
57:09
lot more immersive, uh, because, you
57:12
know, your decisions would have weight
57:13
and and things like that. Um,
57:15
>> yeah. Like I I I'll say this. I love
57:17
Diablo I right now, and I think the
57:19
story of the current expansion is very
57:21
good, but if they actually made a Diablo
57:24
5 where they blatantly stole uh the
57:28
Boulders Gate 3 formula of letting you
57:29
do anything you want and having there be
57:32
multiple different outcomes, I I would
57:35
play it until like my eyes fell out of
57:37
my head. Like I just I cannot tell you
57:40
how tiresome it is to never really be
57:43
able to decide what my character does.
57:46
You know what? What am I playing this? I
57:48
mean, I know it's an action RPG, but
57:51
it's a single player game. And by the
57:53
god, please make it continue to be a
57:55
single player game. I know that they
57:56
have an MMO like formula, but I I never
57:59
want to play Diablo if I have to have
58:01
other people there with me because that
58:03
that's the other problem with an MMO and
58:05
an immersive story is that now you have
58:08
to try and tailor it for everybody in
58:10
the same group.
58:11
>> Yep. I I I want to also maybe say that
58:15
there's another way to frame it or at
58:16
least think about it at least in terms
58:18
of Heronar and the Void Storm. Um which
58:22
are the two areas in the current
58:24
expansion that you have to get to by
58:26
Portal.
58:27
One, the Void Storm is literally up in
58:31
the sky in a void pocket dimension
58:33
created by Zotath.
58:35
um where you theoretically you could
58:38
maybe have gone flying up the dark well
58:40
to get there, but they've already told
58:42
you it's another planet inside of the
58:44
void storm somewhere. Um so it
58:48
>> is it kind of like it's sort of like a
58:50
like the thing that they had uh Talia
58:53
do.
58:53
>> Yeah.
58:54
>> With all of you know Valor. So it's kind
58:56
of like folded around it
58:58
>> kind of. Yeah. But it is a it is an
59:00
actual planet and it's another planet.
59:03
um and where it exists in relation to
59:05
Azeroth. Uh it's not exactly a planet
59:08
that they just flew in to orbit around
59:10
Azeroth. You're traveling through
59:13
dimensions in space to get there. So
59:16
yes, it's portal locked, but it's also
59:18
another like dimension and spatial like
59:22
position that
59:23
>> basically if you're okay with planes,
59:25
this is a plane.
59:26
>> Yeah, more or less. And in terms of
59:28
Harinar or Harendar, we actually don't
59:31
know where that is. We know
59:33
>> they don't want us to.
59:34
>> Yeah, we know that it is potentially uh
59:38
something that you could have gotten to
59:40
uh with, you know, through Hollowfall
59:43
and that whole area that it would have
59:44
been connected to the caverns in some
59:46
capacity there. But the things that we
59:49
do know about it,
59:51
it's the cradle of life for the world
59:54
trees.
59:55
All of the roots of all of the world
59:58
trees that have ever existed meet in
1:00:01
this zone. As a matter of fact, the
1:00:04
Harendere ratial uh if you go to certain
1:00:07
areas and use the root travel, it takes
1:00:10
you to those world trees.
1:00:13
So, you are essentially traveling
1:00:16
through roots to get to this cradle that
1:00:19
we don't know exactly where it is, but
1:00:22
connects to everywhere else in the
1:00:24
world. because it connects to Bellamth.
1:00:26
It connects to everywhere. Sorry. Go
1:00:27
ahead.
1:00:28
>> In Legion, we saw that the world trees
1:00:31
have a teleportation network between
1:00:32
them.
1:00:33
>> Yep.
1:00:34
>> That goes through the Emerald Dream.
1:00:37
>> It's quite possible that the only way to
1:00:39
get to Haron Harendar if you don't have
1:00:41
a mole device and several months of time
1:00:44
to dig through is to take a similar
1:00:47
network. That's why it needs a portal
1:00:49
because you have to get down. We don't
1:00:51
know how deep that thing is. We don't
1:00:53
know where it is.
1:00:54
>> And and let's take it even a step
1:00:56
further. Let's talk about and we talked
1:00:57
about this on the main podcast, I think,
1:01:00
uh and a little bit last week when we
1:01:01
answered the stuff about the alm dust.
1:01:03
The rift of alm
1:01:06
is in the emerald dream or connects to
1:01:08
the emerald dream.
1:01:10
And that is not a physical location in
1:01:14
the true sense of the word. It is
1:01:16
however something that is right there at
1:01:19
in Harandar. You can physically go to
1:01:22
the rift. You go into it as part of your
1:01:25
questing. You go into it as part of the
1:01:27
story of that zone. And again, we have
1:01:30
no idea where that is physically in
1:01:32
Azeroth, but it's deep and it is
1:01:34
somewhere. And the other thing too to
1:01:37
remember is in the story, we talked
1:01:40
about how when the first world tree was
1:01:42
planted, uh, the blessing of Gineir
1:01:45
essentially created a shield around the
1:01:47
core of Azeroth with its roots.
1:01:50
If you are in the cradle of life or the
1:01:53
cradle of whatever uh this is and again
1:01:56
we still haven't classified exactly what
1:01:58
it's a cradle of. You're in a place that
1:02:02
has been highly protected from outside
1:02:04
interference for millennia
1:02:08
and you're getting inside of it.
1:02:11
You probably could dig a hole if you
1:02:13
really really wanted to. But I starting
1:02:15
to question whether it is actually a
1:02:17
physical space or like the void storm if
1:02:21
it's more of a plane, if it's more of a
1:02:24
a pocket dimension that exists within
1:02:27
the confines of Azeroth.
1:02:30
So these two zones, I understand what
1:02:33
you're saying, but I don't necessarily
1:02:36
know that they qualify as pure physical
1:02:39
locations
1:02:41
uh in order for exploration purposes.
1:02:43
So, I'm not I'm not saying that you're
1:02:45
wrong in your desire to have a more
1:02:47
immersive experience, but I'm saying
1:02:48
maybe frame it in that way and see if
1:02:50
you if that tickles your fancy a little
1:02:53
bit better. Just throwing it out there
1:02:54
as a a suggestion or recommendation
1:02:56
because that's the way I look at them.
1:02:57
Maybe that'll help you. I don't know.
1:03:00
>> I just like to make the Stargate noise
1:03:02
whenever I go through a portal.
1:03:03
>> Absolutely. Absolutely.
1:03:06
Uh but I think that's going to do it for
1:03:08
today, friends. I do want to thank you
1:03:10
and remind you that Blizzardwatch is
1:03:12
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1:03:14
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1:03:15
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1:03:18
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1:03:20
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1:03:23
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1:03:26
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1:03:28
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1:03:30
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1:03:32
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1:03:34
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1:03:37
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1:03:39
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1:03:40
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1:03:57
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1:04:01
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#Games