Up next in 10
Lore Watch kicks off with a discussion from Diablo 4 this week, which breaks the seal on the Lord of Hatred spoilers. This question concerns the Chekov's Gun that was Neyrelle's lopped off arm. Matt and Joe discuss the possibility that Neyrelle isn't truly, fully dead, as through the lens of that arm, which apparently washed up on shore in Skovos, despite being cut off in a very different place. Is it really a hint that she may come back, or is this just more residual echoes of hatred?
Then, Eric gets to flex his astrophysicist street cred with the next question, which asks, if we can time travel, where are all the time travelers in Azeroth? Shouldn't we be crisscrossing all over the cosmos, or whatever, running into each other all the time? He posits a pseudo-connection to the Fermi Paradox, which essentially asks the same question, but about non-humans in real life, and where all the spacefaring civilizations are. And yes, contemplating this is truly terrifying.
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0:04
[music]
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, round
0:11
table free form discussion about lore
0:13
and your favorite media. I'm your host
0:15
Joe Pres, one of several lore focused
0:17
folks from Blizzard Watch. And I've got
0:19
two marvelous co-hosts with me today.
0:21
First, you know him, you love him, uh
0:23
Matt Rossy. How we doing today, Matt?
0:26
>> I don't know. I don't love me. Well, I
0:28
think there's some profound
0:29
>> stick. That's what I've got. I've got
0:32
some kind of thing. Illness. There we
0:35
go. Yeah, I found a word.
0:39
>> Well,
0:40
>> go just talk to Eric for a second.
0:42
>> Yeah, we'll see if we can distract you
0:44
from your illness with some questions
0:45
from our wonderful listeners today. And
0:47
of course, joining us as always is
0:49
another stalwart companion, Eric OD. How
0:51
you doing, Eric?
0:52
>> I'm doing okay. I'm more jet-lagged than
0:54
sick, but I like Matt even when he is
0:56
sick. So, I'm glad to be here with you,
0:58
Matt. [clears throat]
0:58
>> Me as well. But
1:00
>> first, swear it both of you.
1:02
>> You could, but then I'd have to edit it.
1:04
So, instead, we're going to talk about
1:06
our wonderful listeners at home who were
1:07
kind enough to send us questions for us
1:09
to answer on today's podcast. And if you
1:12
are a listener at home and you wish to
1:13
participate by sending us questions to
1:15
answer, well, we got a couple different
1:17
ways you can do that. First, we have the
1:19
podcast at blizzardwatch.com email
1:22
address. We ask that you specify the
1:24
show that it is for in the subject line
1:27
and any special pronunciation of your
1:29
name. If you want to hit us on Discord,
1:31
we have the Q and Podcast questions
1:33
channel open to everybody. Same rules
1:34
apply. If you are a Patreon subscriber
1:37
as a special way of saying thank you, we
1:39
have a channel set aside where we look
1:41
there first called the Patron Q and
1:43
Podcast Questions channel. Uh just a
1:45
little extra for, you know, helping us
1:47
keep the lights on. Uh this one comes
1:50
from GR. I remember at some point you
1:52
mentioned that some side quest in Diablo
1:54
I uh Lord of Hatred suggests Nrell might
1:58
not be gone entirely. Since we are well
2:00
past spoiler limits now, could you
2:02
elaborate on this? I don't seem to have
2:04
encountered the quest you allude to yet.
2:07
Um Matt, do you remember what quest
2:09
specifically it was? Cuz I couldn't
2:10
remember for the life of me. I know I've
2:12
seen it. There's the Nel's hand bit
2:15
where you find her hand and it the the
2:19
flavor text suggests that the hand is
2:21
not normal. Um there's also the whole
2:26
deal with when you're doing the research
2:28
to figure out um what how how does she
2:32
know all this stuff that Meisto is doing
2:35
after he's left the soul stone? and she
2:38
herself says in the cinematic that she
2:40
can feel him like it's much it's very
2:43
similar to how the player at one point
2:46
has Meto in their head through Lilith.
2:49
Um Nel is bound to was bound to Meisto
2:52
through the soul stone like she's
2:54
literally the one that put him in the
2:55
soul stone and she was using her will to
2:58
keep the soul stone from exploding which
3:01
effectively gave him the ability to
3:02
tunnel into her. Now, he kills her. Uh,
3:07
and I'm I'm doing air quotes here. I
3:09
know you guys can't see me, so that's
3:11
why I say it like that. I don't think it
3:13
helps. Anyway, as a result of that, and
3:16
a result of what we see when he's doing
3:18
this, he's tunneling into you. Uh, it's
3:21
possible that I'm going to just throw
3:23
this one out there because it's one of
3:24
the fan theories I've seen that I find
3:26
most interesting. It's possible that
3:28
she's in you now because, you know, when
3:32
Meisto gets banished,
3:35
you're the last piece of either Lilith
3:37
or Meisto left in the world. Uh there's
3:40
a there's a what do you call it? Sphinx
3:42
creature that you meet um when you're
3:45
going through
3:47
uh which I the really bad zoneqatara.
3:51
Yeah. When you're going through, you you
3:54
meet this like weird like oracle like
3:57
monster thing that keeps doing like
4:00
weird Greek tragedy related stuff to
4:03
people. And when she looks at you, she
4:05
says, "I can see, you know, where I can
4:08
see the you are like a framework built
4:11
on, you know, what on the scaffolding of
4:13
hatred." like you know she calls you the
4:15
like the the tainted one or I forget
4:18
what else like she talks about you in in
4:20
different ways but that right there
4:23
especially since what we're also seeing
4:25
in terms of what may have happened to
4:26
Lilith when she cut the connection to
4:28
you and what's going on with the never
4:32
like there's a whole bit with a with a
4:35
thing we think is Lucien but they just
4:37
call it the you know the the one or the
4:40
the banished one that implies that
4:44
things in the void can, you know,
4:46
there's there's entities in there
4:49
swirling around. And with Nell in the
4:52
condition she was in when she died, she
4:55
might very well still kind of exist in
4:58
you or in in a relation to what happened
5:01
to you. Now, we don't have a lot of
5:03
direct proof on this. It's just little
5:05
things. the I I do suggest you go look
5:08
for Nel's hand because for one thing,
5:10
it's it's how you're eventually going to
5:11
get to the cow level, we think. Uh but
5:14
also because there's a lot of like notes
5:16
and so forth that kind of hint at the
5:19
hand not being there by accident. It's
5:21
kind of left behind cuz remember Nel cut
5:23
the thing off. Well, actually it was
5:24
Laurat who got the uh so yeah, why was
5:27
it where it was instead of where he did
5:29
that? Um that's a thing to think about.
5:32
He he cut the hand off on the shore
5:34
right next to where you go into the
5:36
realm of the dead. Uh which is itself a
5:39
whole thing. So yeah,
5:41
um it's not nothing direct, nothing that
5:44
says, you know, Nel ain't dead for
5:46
y'all. It's just there's enough there to
5:48
consider it possible. And keep in mind,
5:51
this is Diablo. Dead people don't
5:52
necessarily leave. Like sometimes they
5:55
just keep talking to you. Like I've had,
5:57
you know, we we've all had conversations
5:58
with dead people. Um, I mean, it's not
6:00
like they'd come to our house. No, I I
6:02
mean, you know, the the our characters.
6:04
So, yeah, that that's the stuff I
6:05
remember seeing or hearing on that
6:08
subject. Uh, again, it wasn't it wasn't
6:11
like, you know, hey, you know, an angel
6:13
will now explain to me, you know, what's
6:15
going on. I also think though that the
6:17
fact that the Reapers I'm sorry, this is
6:19
the whole plot of the new season, but
6:21
it's like they're upfront about it. The
6:23
Reapers are back. And the fact that the
6:25
reapers are back means we have to
6:27
consider what they did the last time we
6:29
saw them. Uh where they it was it was
6:32
shown to us that the spirits of people
6:34
who died on on sanctuary and who weren't
6:38
taken to like someplace else for one
6:41
reason or another ended up in the
6:43
pandemonium fortress. Like that's where
6:45
they went. They went to where the world
6:47
stone used to be and then they just
6:49
wandered around. She could be there. Uh,
6:52
but regardless, the the stuff we have in
6:54
game is pretty thin, but it does exist.
6:56
>> Yeah. So, and I guess that's really
6:58
where my stuff comes in because I I
7:00
didn't remember anything specifically
7:02
pointing to her being gone gone, but
7:04
that's really sort of like one of the
7:06
themes I guess of Diablo I,
7:10
you know, just from the very beginning,
7:12
right, is that things that are thought
7:15
gone forever can come back. And
7:17
especially now with the way that they've
7:19
sort of set up a lot of the world
7:21
building, there's a lot of questions as
7:24
to what death means in Sanctuary these
7:27
days. The soul stone's gone, right? We
7:31
don't have them anymore. We don't have
7:33
the, you know, a full soul stone. There
7:36
are little bits and pieces of it
7:37
everywhere. But honestly, it's it I
7:41
don't know how else to phrase it. It's
7:42
just we don't know. We don't know what
7:47
death means and if it is permanent at
7:50
all. Right? We've seen plenty of
7:52
vengeful spirits. We've seen plenty of
7:54
of specters and uh folks that we have
7:57
interacted with. And then the question
8:00
becomes if they're around, is there a
8:03
chance that a fragment of Nel or Nel's
8:07
essence is somehow still around? or is
8:11
she in the spirit realm which we now
8:13
know like is a layer upon layer upon
8:16
layer of our reality uh and definitely
8:19
has like is affected by the eddies of
8:22
reality. Is she there? What? Again, we
8:25
we don't know. And I think that's one of
8:28
the things that people are are sort of I
8:30
don't want to say necessarily hopeful
8:32
for, but Diablo is traditionally a
8:35
franchise where death doesn't
8:36
necessarily mean forever. And Diablo I
8:39
sort of really drives that home through
8:41
all of its questing is that yes, things
8:44
may die, but we can call upon our
8:46
ancestors. We're literally on the
8:47
Scoisle where the oracles can see the
8:50
past. We can interact with the past. Uh,
8:52
as Matt pointed out, there's a whole
8:54
thing where Lilith is a part of us and
8:56
we're able to go inside of ourselves
8:59
essentially using uh the eye of uh
9:03
Scovos and and you know talk with her
9:07
and have real time interaction.
9:11
>> The sightless eye
9:11
>> sightless eye. Excuse me.
9:14
>> I'm sorry. I had a moment my brain
9:15
locked up.
9:16
>> My It's
9:20
Go on. Continue. I just I had to.
9:22
>> No, no, I appreciate it. Um, so it it
9:26
there is a very real possibility that
9:28
fragments of Nyrell could still exist.
9:32
We also don't know the full extent of
9:33
what happened to her uh in response to
9:37
her trauma from carrying the soul stone
9:39
of Methto. And as we've seen with, you
9:43
know, uh, Rathma and and and others,
9:47
your soul can be fragmented. There can
9:49
be an echo. there can be a memory of you
9:52
that is able to interact with the world
9:55
as if it was a real functional being if
9:58
that makes sense. So, there's a
10:00
possibility that we could see something
10:02
like that happen with Nel, especially
10:04
considering I I I don't want to really
10:07
put too much on this, but Tyel talked
10:10
about how much he wishes he would have
10:11
met Nel. And if anybody would be like,
10:16
"Oh, I would like to talk to the, you
10:18
know, ancestors or the people that know
10:20
about this stuff or or get an idea."
10:22
Tyel would probably know an archaic way
10:24
to go ahead and do it. Um if Lor
10:26
>> material is the source of the magic that
10:28
the Haraj
10:29
>> Yeah, he is
10:30
>> like material is the guy who taught them
10:32
how to do magic.
10:33
>> Um magic in the Diablo setting, it
10:37
doesn't have like a an ethical
10:39
component. Like there are there are
10:41
people who use, you know, necromancy and
10:44
they're completely totally into balance.
10:46
There are warlocks who are using demonic
10:48
magic and they're literally using it
10:50
against demons. Um, there are paladins
10:54
who, you know, even when they were
10:56
full-on paladins were using the power of
10:58
the light against their own kind because
11:00
they were corrupted by Meisto. Uh, all
11:04
of this is to say that just because
11:06
something it seems to be the purview of
11:09
one group, uh, that doesn't mean another
11:11
couldn't do it. And also, I'll point out
11:13
this. When you first meet Nel, one of
11:15
the things you do is go to the one of
11:17
the Herodum vaults, the one that's in,
11:19
uh, the Fractured Peaks. You find a book
11:22
in that in that tomb that it has a
11:24
necromancer spell from Wraithma that
11:26
allows you to pull someone's spirit back
11:28
and put it in their body and make it
11:31
talk to you. And you Nel uses that on
11:34
her own mother. She doesn't keep her
11:36
mother. She doesn't like make her mother
11:38
like a a mockery of the living, but she
11:40
does use it to talk to that implies that
11:42
if T if Tyel wanted to I I mean it was
11:45
in his vault. He knows about this book.
11:49
He's probably the one who put it there.
11:51
So, he could literally just pull the
11:53
book out and and effectively call her
11:55
up, especially if he's got her hand,
11:58
which we we do have. So, there are ways
12:02
to round this. There are ways to do it.
12:04
Um, also, I think it's worth pointing
12:06
out, uh, there's other characters, not
12:08
just Nell, who could come back in this
12:09
fashion. The one that keeps coming to me
12:11
is is good oldfashioned uh Decard Kane
12:14
because I am convinced I am convinced
12:17
that Decard Kane is in that sword Eldin
12:20
because Decard fixes it
12:22
>> using the Herodic arts. He doesn't have
12:25
a cube. He does not have a cube there
12:27
when he does it. He uses his own magic
12:29
to do it. I think that's why he died.
12:32
It's I I keep looking back to Nel's
12:34
death and I keep thinking to myself,
12:36
what if Nell made him kill her? She
12:38
deliberately pushed him till he killed
12:40
her, knowing that once she was
12:42
physically dead, there was nothing he
12:44
could do to her and she'd still be
12:47
connected to him. Like, he made a lot of
12:49
mistakes. He made a lot of mistakes when
12:51
he was fighting us. And I think some or
12:53
all of it could have been Nell giving
12:55
him the occasional sharp kick mentally
12:58
speaking to get him to to like get angry
13:01
and think less clearly because you see
13:03
him do that multiple times in D4 uh in
13:06
the in Lord of Hatred which you don't
13:08
see him do before like in a weird sort
13:11
of way. It's almost like Nell gets to
13:13
turn the tables on him and gets him to
13:15
be the one off balance. Like when she
13:17
starts telling him all the stuff she's
13:18
worked out and he gets mad and kills her
13:21
and destroys all her notes. That's
13:23
unusually that's unusual for him. He
13:25
doesn't do that. Like he would I mean
13:28
have people do it? Yeah. Absolutely do
13:30
it himself. Like is Nrell worth killing
13:33
by with your own hands quote unquote? So
13:36
I don't know. There's a lot of hooks you
13:38
could use in a bunch of different ways
13:39
and the implication is definitely there
13:41
in the game that that we have not heard
13:43
the last from Nell even if she is dead.
13:46
>> I think I'm buying this theory as you
13:48
know mostly an outsider to Diablo and
13:50
just kind of listening to you guys. But
13:52
at first I was skeptical because Nell
13:54
seems more like a, you know, human
13:57
scholar and not a cosmic entity that's
14:00
likely to just be indestructible and
14:03
always coming back and, you know, having
14:05
the ability to pull themselves back from
14:07
the void. But it sounds like she was
14:10
involved enough in soul stones. And we
14:13
know that you talked about having your
14:15
soul split and not being, you know,
14:18
you're not completely erased if there's
14:19
fragments of your soul around. So it
14:21
could be we'll see echoes or not a true
14:25
resurrection or it could be like you
14:26
said sometimes all it takes is one
14:28
breadcrumb
14:29
>> one one thing out of place to say oh
14:32
that could be what we're we're setting
14:34
up.
14:35
>> And one of the other things about that I
14:36
think is also interesting too is we we
14:39
know that Nel like Matt has pointed out
14:41
was researching the soul stone and
14:44
researching meto and how to defeat him
14:47
but
14:47
>> she went a couple different places. She
14:49
we know she went to Zanza at one point.
14:50
>> Well, just look at the look at the
14:52
cinematic. What was she surrounded by?
14:54
Books and scrolls and accounts and
14:57
research doing the thing that she does
14:59
best. And if anybody could have figured
15:02
out a way to potentially get the better
15:05
of Meisto, I would not be surprised if
15:08
it was her. Even with his pressure on
15:11
her, especially after after he got the
15:15
body of Acarat. While that was
15:18
definitely a huge thing in and like the
15:21
burden on her lessened, still connected,
15:24
but definitely lessened there, like you
15:26
Matt pointed out like there's a reason
15:28
he went and found her. She was
15:31
dangerous. Why was she dangerous? Why
15:34
was she dangerous to a prime evil,
15:36
right? So, she knew something. She knew
15:39
something. And yes, we did get the thing
15:41
where she sent us on the path for the
15:42
weapon and all this other stuff, but
15:44
that can't be the only thing she
15:46
discovered. And being a member of the
15:48
Harajum at that point, she would have
15:50
access to a bunch of those vaults and
15:53
she had a head start. We don't know what
15:55
she got her hands on beforehand. And
15:58
unlike the other Harajum, getting to say
16:01
the Sco Isles or or anywhere else where
16:04
they may be hated, and I know she didn't
16:06
make it there, um, but getting to any
16:09
place where they may be bismerched or
16:12
their name may not be pristine, she's
16:14
not a known quantity. She can hide the
16:16
medallion, right? She's not Lorath.
16:18
She's not Doran. She's not Tyel. She's
16:22
not somebody who is recognizable at
16:25
first glance. And so she could get
16:27
places and ask questions and interact
16:29
with people that wouldn't interact with
16:31
the others. And I think that may have
16:34
given her potentially more information.
16:37
And like Matt, you pointed out an
16:39
interesting thing. She may have been
16:40
goating him into killing her. That may
16:43
have been intentional. And it may have
16:45
been intentional because she already
16:47
figured out how to win. And this was
16:49
just a further step in that, right? It's
16:51
the
16:51
>> I mean, even if it's not even if she
16:53
didn't have any higher theory on it, she
16:56
knows you.
16:58
You're her probably her closest friend.
17:01
You're the one person who believed in
17:03
her more than like you believed in
17:05
yourself. You let her make the choice
17:08
because you believed in her. You're
17:10
like, I've been tainted. You you on the
17:12
other hand, you know, I trust your
17:14
judgment. She might have known, okay, if
17:16
he kills me, you know, I I feel bad for
17:18
him because because they're going to
17:21
come and they're gonna they're not gonna
17:23
stop. Nothing will stop them and they
17:26
will uproot you. It doesn't matter how
17:29
much more powerful you are. It doesn't
17:31
matter that you're a prime evil. If
17:33
anything, it's just going to make it
17:35
hurt worse when you fall because you're
17:37
going to and I'm going to make sure they
17:39
get the the tools they need to do it. I
17:42
I I don't know. Oh, I just something
17:44
about Nel. She's always been a kind of
17:46
character who on the surface she's just
17:48
an annoying kid, but she doesn't play
17:51
like the annoying kid sidekick in media.
17:54
She plays like someone who's just like,
17:55
"Look, um I lost my mom. I lost
17:58
everything. I'm not going to like I'm
18:00
not wasting time here. I I'm not
18:02
justifying my presence. I'm coming. What
18:05
are you going to How you going to stop
18:06
me?" Like, we don't have time. Like you
18:08
you need somebody who isn't like the old
18:11
burned out guy or the dude who wishes he
18:14
died instead of his son or crazy MC
18:17
blood Mcb blood of Lilith have her. You
18:20
need somebody who's relatively sane
18:22
here.
18:23
>> Yeah. And and you know the other the
18:25
other thing that I'm thinking about with
18:26
this too is like going back to the her
18:28
like having him strike her down that
18:30
might have been a key component of it
18:32
too potentially. Like how many spells
18:35
and effects and things have we seen that
18:38
require a tremendous amount of power
18:39
whether it's angelic or demonic in
18:41
nature in order for it to properly
18:44
function or activate or the spell to
18:46
sort of do its thing. You pointed out
18:48
Tyial is the source of the herric magic
18:50
which means that it is ostensibly
18:52
angelic magic that they're using um not
18:55
nephilim magic necessarily which is a
18:58
blend of the two. Um, but if she
19:01
discovered something like that and it
19:03
was like, okay, he's got the power of a
19:06
prime evil inside of a body of Acarat
19:08
that is steeped in power of the spirit
19:10
realm. This is my out, right? This is
19:13
this is this is how I can bite him in
19:15
the butt. And yeah, and also now that
19:18
you've said that, just because you said
19:19
that, you made me think of something
19:20
immediately. Um, in D4, uh, in in Lord
19:25
of Hatred, there's a bit where you go to
19:26
the the Herodrick vault to get the new
19:28
cube in order to fix the knife the that
19:30
you're going to use to banish Meto, who
19:33
is the main villain. Matt, I can't
19:34
believe you forgot him for a second
19:35
there. Uh, you're going to banish Meisto
19:37
using the knife from Lilith. And you go
19:38
and use the cube. But as you're doing
19:40
it, you you find each of the original
19:43
Herod's chambers, for lack of a better
19:45
word, and you get their like life story
19:48
and these like recordings that they
19:50
have. And Zolan Cools, first off, it's
19:53
hilarious to hear Zelden Cool sound like
19:55
a normal guy, like you just talking, not
19:57
not a maniac, not ranting, just a you
20:00
know, he's like, "Yeah, this is really
20:01
fascinating."
20:03
But he makes the point that studying the
20:06
soul stone, like it's like nothing. It's
20:08
like a little piece of nothing like like
20:11
this. I And the first thing that makes
20:13
me think of is the void. But it's like
20:15
Nell had one in her hands for months.
20:19
Like she had one in her hands. Sorry. Um
20:22
she had it in her hand for months. She
20:24
traveled around with it. Sometimes she
20:26
lost control of it some and then she
20:28
would fight back and regain control of
20:29
it. She intimately knows it in a way
20:32
almost no one except the dark wanderer
20:34
could know. And the Dark Wanderer was
20:37
too busy being possessed by Diablo. He
20:39
Let's be Let's be upfront. Nel's force
20:42
of will is stronger than Aiden's because
20:45
Aiden lost. Yeah. And she didn't. I did.
20:49
Did she come close? Yes. I think it's
20:52
like the old saying, you know, anybody
20:53
everybody breaks eventually. It just
20:55
it's a question of how long can you go
20:57
before you break? Aiden didn't take that
21:00
long. Like, you know, he started to
21:02
break the moment he decided this thing
21:03
should go in my head. And from there it
21:06
just got worse. She didn't she didn't
21:08
pull a Tarasha. She didn't lose herself.
21:12
And that amount of time with a primeval
21:16
basically slamming itself into her brain
21:19
trying to get her to do what he wants
21:22
and she won't do it. Now there's a you
21:24
know to me there's a reason and you
21:26
mentioned the spirit world here. There's
21:27
a reason that the spirit Akarat helped
21:30
her. Even when Eru kept freaking out and
21:33
and arguing against it, Akarat's like,
21:35
"No, no, you're wrong. This is the only
21:38
way through this is to do this, and I
21:41
can't I can't give her the cheat code
21:43
because then she won't be ready." It's
21:45
like if you have your brother play the
21:48
hard level of say, you know, Super Mario
21:51
Brothers for you when you need to play
21:53
it, you can't because your brother
21:54
played it and you don't know how to do
21:56
it. That's what it all was. It was all
21:59
getting Dell to the point where she
22:02
could do something nobody else could do.
22:04
What if that thing is torque Mefisto
22:07
off? Get him to do the dumb thing.
22:10
Because of the three prime Yeah. The
22:13
emotional thing. Because of the three
22:15
primevals, he was the most cerebral. I
22:17
mean, you know, he is the essence of
22:18
hatred, but hatred can be cold. Hatred
22:21
can be controlled. Hatred can be like a
22:24
dagger in the back. It doesn't have to
22:25
be, you know, destruction is the other
22:28
guy. Hatred doesn't can motivate
22:30
destruction, but it doesn't have to be
22:31
destruction. And I think that she kind
22:34
of goed there's a a a breadcrumb in the
22:37
game where Mephisto tells the player,
22:40
you know, everything is out of balance
22:42
since Elias started up and I have
22:44
characters from Destruction's realm in
22:46
my realm. And I think that that's kind
22:48
of a hint that the primevals are out of
22:51
balance ever since Diablo II because in
22:53
Diablo II, Diablo
22:56
takes over all of them. He basically
22:58
shoves them all into the corner and and
23:00
takes all their power and uses it to
23:02
attack heaven. They're not working
23:05
together well anymore. In a really in a
23:07
real way, the attack on Sanctuary this
23:09
time is a sign. It's almost like an
23:11
extinction burst. They're all flailing.
23:13
They're all panicked that that Malio
23:16
came as close as anyone ever has to
23:19
utterly expuning them
23:20
>> because if he kept the stone and had he
23:23
wiped out all of humanity, there's the
23:26
the primes endgame is shot, Maliel would
23:29
have the stone, humans would all be
23:31
dead. There's no reinforcements coming
23:34
and nobody unifying the demons. Game
23:37
over. I mean, Maliel still would have to
23:39
answer to heaven for attacking it, but
23:42
he could probably come up with something
23:44
like, you know, I know that I did this
23:46
and I know that, you know, you you know,
23:49
Imperious is is upset, but you know,
23:50
he's always upset. But look, they're
23:53
helpless now. We can get rid of them.
23:55
We've got the the seven the the the
23:58
seven evils are all in this stone. We've
24:00
got it. We can do anything we want with
24:02
it. And the de the demons themselves
24:04
don't have leaders and we can just go
24:05
wipe them out.
24:06
>> Yep. and they're not going to get any
24:08
humans to back them up. So, that didn't
24:10
work. But it it was only because of the
24:12
Nephilim. Mouth's plan would have worked
24:14
had you not shown up. Like, in a very
24:17
real way, you're the meddling kids that
24:19
defeat Maliel's genius plan. Um, and
24:23
because of this, they're all they're all
24:25
chaotic. Like, and they're chaotic
24:28
anyway because they're demons. But even
24:30
like even Meto, even I'm I'm banking on
24:33
this. When we see Bale, Bale is not
24:36
going to be doing well. Like, Meisto was
24:39
so messed up that he could only appear
24:42
in Avatar form until the very end of the
24:45
the last expansion. Three games, he
24:47
barely showed up. And usually it was as
24:49
a wolf and and it took the spirit realm
24:53
juice soaked Acura body in order to like
24:56
have enough gumption for him to be able
24:58
to like essentially manifest.
25:00
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's actually a really
25:02
good point. And it related to his
25:04
attempts on the spirit world. It all it
25:07
all comes back to like being like
25:08
harvesting and Nell was the one kind of
25:11
like she was at the eye of that
25:13
hurricane. She was at the center of it
25:15
for like the whole thing. So yeah, I I I
25:18
have my problems narratively with not
25:20
having Nel past the intro cinematic. Um,
25:24
but I do think there's there's enough
25:26
room in the storyline and enough room in
25:28
stuff that they specifically say that
25:31
you could have Nel as a present to the
25:33
future. I don't think you could
25:34
necessarily have her being alive. I
25:36
think she is dead, but her being dead
25:38
doesn't mean she isn't going to be
25:39
around. I mean, Wrath has been dead, we
25:42
don't even know how long Wrath has been
25:44
dead, and he keeps showing up.
25:46
>> Yeah.
25:46
>> Like, he literally shows up twice in the
25:49
in the in the last expansion. That guy,
25:51
that guy does not know how to not keep
25:53
talking. And says I right now.
25:56
>> Well, hopefully that answers your
25:58
question, GR. Uh, and uh, if not, well,
26:01
we'll answer it again, I'm sure, later
26:02
on as we get further into more Diablo I
26:04
stuff, cuz this is ripe for speculation.
26:07
Uh, we're going to move on to the next
26:08
one from Razer Bug, uh, which is,
26:11
"Listening to the community sum up the
26:13
Titan history and presence on Azeroth
26:15
for new/ returning players made me think
26:17
Azeroth has labs, experiments, testing
26:21
grounds, failafees, backups, and
26:24
powerhouses all over it for a Titan all
26:27
over it for a Titan business. And
26:30
twothirds of its mortal races are Titan
26:33
derived. We are told the Titans ordered
26:36
all slashmost of the cosmos, the
26:38
universe, the prime material plane,
26:40
whatever we want to call it. And we know
26:42
that's true for several planets, maybe
26:45
even solar systems outside of Azeroth.
26:47
But is the lack of adventurers, magic
26:50
wielders, or super scientists of a level
26:52
comparable to Azeroth's player champions
26:55
a sign that maybe the Titans oversell
26:57
their achievements? and that perhaps
26:59
Azeroth is their most slash only
27:02
successful air quote project. A similar
27:05
line to if time travel is possible,
27:08
where are all the other time traveler?
27:09
Eric, you've been pretty quiet because
27:11
of the Diablo stuff. Uh but I know you
27:14
have some opinions about uh World of
27:16
Warcraft and Azeroth. So, why don't you
27:18
take first crack at this one? So, I love
27:20
questions from our community because I
27:22
think about the Warcraft universe a lot,
27:24
but y'all constantly ask questions that
27:26
I never thought of and then just like
27:30
just I just type my I just try to type
27:32
as fast as my brain is going because
27:34
this is it's a good point. that the
27:37
Titans have spent a lot of time on
27:40
Azeroth doing a lot of tinkering and
27:44
creating a lot of, you know, servants
27:47
who've over a couple thousand years have
27:50
sort of evolved into a lot of different
27:52
races and we are pretty capable and
27:54
we're porting from planet to planet
27:58
around the universe and so where where
28:02
is everybody else? It's Ferm's paradox.
28:04
So, I'm an astrophysicist by background
28:07
in the loosest sense of the word, but I
28:10
love like the history of our
28:12
understanding of our universe here on
28:14
Earth, like the real universe. And so,
28:16
in 1950, a bunch of physicists were
28:19
having lunch and talking about UFOs and
28:21
faster than light travel and whether you
28:22
could get to other planets. And it was
28:24
1950, so all this stuff was brand new.
28:26
And they didn't know if aliens were
28:28
actually visiting us or not because like
28:30
it was 1950, like Roswell was 3 years
28:33
before that. And so they're talking
28:35
about it and then they kind of move on
28:37
and then one of the physicists enrio
28:39
Fermy just kind of blurts out so where
28:41
is everybody like they're talking about
28:43
if it's possible to have faster than
28:45
light travel or even if it's not there
28:47
should still be signs of intelligent
28:48
life in the vast huge trillions upon
28:53
trillions of stars wide universe and
28:55
nobody's there. And so this is kind of
28:57
getting to the same point like if the
28:59
Titans have ordered our universe and we
29:02
are the result of that ordering and we
29:04
are blasting around the universe on you
29:06
know we're hopping a ride on some
29:08
spaceships and we be able to go from
29:11
planet to planet like why haven't we
29:13
come across some other bunch of
29:15
adventurers who are here to save the day
29:17
or just exploring or anything like that.
29:20
Um does that seem like it makes sense
29:22
guys? I mean, I have things I would say,
29:24
but I want to let you and Joe talk
29:26
because I just talk for
29:27
>> So, I think that
29:29
>> I think that there's answers to Fermy's
29:32
paradox in our universe, which are, you
29:34
know, maybe there's a great filter.
29:36
Maybe there's a reason why intelligent
29:37
life never reaches the point where it,
29:39
you know, conquers the whole universe or
29:40
a galaxy or or whatever. Maybe
29:43
technology
29:44
kind of uh leads to society destroying
29:48
itself and they never get to space
29:49
travel. Maybe there's something going on
29:52
with stars or planets that they're not
29:54
stable enough and that society doesn't
29:56
last long enough. What would Azeroth's
29:58
great filter be? Um, you know, maybe the
30:02
Bernie Legion.
30:03
>> Yeah, I was going to say, so that's the
30:04
Dark Forest theory. Maybe there's the
30:07
reason that nobody is broadcasting radio
30:09
signals across our universe is that
30:10
there's hostile aliens. We know that
30:12
there's hostile aliens in our universe.
30:14
So maybe every time someone tries to do
30:17
anything or in all all previous, you
30:20
know, ordered worlds from the Titans
30:22
were erased by the Legion. Maybe that's
30:25
it.
30:25
>> Well, I mean, there's several things
30:28
like that could be possibly interfering
30:30
with it besides even the Legion. I mean,
30:32
for one thing, we know there's old gods
30:34
and they're not just on Azeroth. uh we
30:36
know that they're out there in the
30:37
cosmos because we're told by one of
30:40
their servants we span the universe as
30:43
you know and again they're liars
30:44
>> but we have independent confirmation
30:46
from Shadowlands. We know that because
30:47
of the the night work.
30:48
>> Mhm. And for that matter even if we
30:53
postulate that the you can't trust the
30:56
old gods or the minions. The guy who
30:58
says these things, Harbinger Skyus, is
31:00
locked in a cell in a cosmic prison
31:05
built by alien crystal monsters that
31:08
that transform between light and
31:10
darkness. Uh there's think about the
31:13
concept of that these things from like
31:16
our reality is full of things that come
31:18
from outside it and decide like the
31:21
Titans are like saying, "Yeah, we've
31:22
ordered the universe." Um great. what
31:25
did you do about this or this or this or
31:27
this? I mean, the Titans when they came
31:29
upon an old god for the first time, they
31:31
were actively confused by it. Like, and
31:34
when Sargeras came and said, "Look,
31:36
there's this thing coming from some void
31:38
force that completely warped a planet,
31:42
you know, we this is this is you got to
31:45
just burn everything down." And their
31:47
response was, "No, we we already ran
31:49
into one. We we've we locked the planet
31:51
up and we're studying it." And you know,
31:54
Sargeras im immediately blue screens.
31:57
He's like, "You're doing what? No, that
32:00
planet needs to burn." You know, and
32:02
they're they're like the whole time
32:03
they're trying to use that as proof that
32:05
they don't have to burn. So, it may not
32:07
be that Azeroth is important to them as
32:10
a success. It's important to them
32:12
because it is the only proof of concept
32:14
they have left. you know, if if
32:17
everything else got burned by your
32:19
crazy, you know, former boyfriend or
32:21
whatever you want to call Sargeras. Um,
32:23
he he literally torched everything else,
32:26
you don't what do you have left? You
32:28
have this place and who knows what else.
32:31
We we know Argus existed with a world
32:34
soul in it just very similar to Azeroth.
32:37
And we know it had facilities and all
32:41
sorts of stuff built on it very similar
32:43
to Azeroth. And then Sargeras showed up
32:46
and and that's what it looks like now.
32:48
How many times did that happen over the
32:51
practically infinite amount of time
32:54
that's passed? And that's the other
32:56
problem. We don't know how long some of
33:00
these things were. Like we know that the
33:02
the Dreni exodus from what is you know
33:06
their home world Argus that that exodus
33:08
took place more than 25,000 years ago.
33:11
But we don't know how much more than
33:12
25,000. And we don't know what Sarger
33:16
Sargeras shows up with power and the
33:18
Legion are already his. How long was he
33:22
going around wiping out planets? Think
33:24
about how many planets just if you look
33:26
at the legendary/ what are they called
33:28
the artifact weapons, there's specific
33:30
ones that are mentioned to be from
33:32
societies and cultures that are gone
33:34
now. Um I'm thinking of the glaes.
33:36
There's the Aldrachi warblades, I
33:38
believe, that are like the weapons of
33:40
this champion that that went toe-to-toe
33:42
with Sargeras. If a guy could step to
33:44
Sargeras, that's a pretty advanced
33:46
culture, right? But also, they're
33:49
obviously dead because the warblades are
33:52
in the hands of a demon. So, how many
33:55
times did that happen? Did that happen
33:56
repeatedly? Did that happen billions of
33:59
times?
34:00
>> Uh, you we just we just don't know. One
34:02
thing that needs to be kept in mind
34:03
about this too and and going back to the
34:05
time travelers aspect of it, we know
34:07
that there are time travelers in
34:09
Azeroth. We know that there are time
34:11
travelers in the universe. We party up
34:14
with the dragons that are able to do
34:17
this. And what was one of their tasks?
34:19
Pruning the timeways to make sure that
34:21
things stayed on course. Where did they
34:24
get that power from? They got that power
34:26
from a Titan. So, a Titan has the
34:30
ability to manipulate time travel
34:32
through time because the dragons, right?
34:35
So, the question of where are all the
34:37
time travelers? They're there. You could
34:40
be talking to one and you'll never know.
34:42
Um,
34:43
>> yeah, that's the other problem. Like,
34:44
you know, if there's if time travel
34:46
exists, why aren't there any time
34:47
travelers? Because time travelers are
34:49
here and they know full well. It'd be
34:51
like asking, well, if anthropologists
34:53
exist, why haven't we in the Rome the,
34:55
you know, this tribe met any
34:57
anthropologists? You have. We just don't
35:00
come out and say, hey, we're
35:00
anthropologists. We've learned better
35:03
that that's bad and we shouldn't do
35:04
that.
35:05
>> Hello, fellow contemporary human.
35:07
>> Yeah. It's like, well, for all you know,
35:10
the reason that there's so many weirdos
35:11
on message boards is because there's
35:13
time travelers like who eventually snap
35:15
and go like, "Oh god, I gotta warn him.
35:17
I gotta warn him. I gotta warn him.
35:18
You're not supposed to warn them. I
35:19
gotta warn him." You know, that could be
35:21
one thing. But the other thing is like I
35:24
think it's uh it was Villain himself who
35:27
said this in a quest that's like super
35:30
old now. It's it's before even the
35:32
Brenden Brad stuff when they then they
35:35
they did the uh Burning Crusade revamp
35:38
of certain zones. Villain comes to the
35:41
swamp of sorrows to help a specific
35:44
leader of the broken who's living in the
35:46
swamp, the lost one. And the eventually
35:49
they're like, you know, why if the light
35:50
is real, why didn't it help us? And
35:52
Velin says to him, it's not that the
35:54
light didn't want to help you. It's that
35:56
the light does not exist unopposed in
35:59
this world's realm. There the light
36:01
isn't all powerful. It isn't capable of
36:04
just doing whatever it wants. And you
36:06
know the the it's hard for people like
36:09
who lived in the societies we've grown
36:11
up in where there's kind of this concept
36:12
of an omnipotent omni benevolent entity
36:15
but they don't have that in World of
36:17
Warcraft. None of these forces are
36:19
considered to be all conquering. You
36:21
know they they can be opposed and that
36:23
includes the ones we want to win.
36:25
>> And we know that that for a fact the
36:27
Titans have been opposed multiple times.
36:29
>> Yeah.
36:29
>> Heck we oppose them.
36:31
>> Yeah. I mean, you know, against all
36:32
cosmically calculated odds. And, you
36:35
know, we even see that the light can be
36:37
used by people who aren't good like or
36:41
even who are good but are controlled by
36:44
something else. Uh, I keep going back to
36:46
Sir Elliak. That guy's done a lot of
36:48
work for me over the years. But, you
36:49
know, there's a guy who's literally
36:51
still a paladin, still, you know,
36:54
calling on the light despite the fact
36:56
that he's a servant of the Lich King.
36:57
You know, there's does it's quite
37:00
possible that the Titans once were much
37:03
more successful than they are now. And
37:05
the reason that you're not seeing lots
37:07
of happy Titan followers or, you know,
37:10
Titan created worlds is that they got
37:12
stomped
37:13
>> Mhm.
37:14
>> by the guy who when he went toe-to-toe
37:17
with the with the all the other Titans,
37:19
Sargeras beat them by himself. I mean,
37:21
he had his demons with him, but the
37:23
demons are like more of a distraction.
37:25
It' be like using swarms of birds to
37:28
attack people. Yeah. Father. And part of
37:32
that is the fact that the Titans never
37:33
had to fight cuz they had Sargeras and
37:36
he's the one who went off to fight
37:37
things. You know, Sargeras is the one
37:39
who killed the dude who had the Aldrachi
37:41
warblades. Sargeras is the one that that
37:44
put all the demons in in a prison world.
37:46
Sargeras is the guy who used to go out
37:48
and do all the fighting. He was the
37:49
fighting titan. And he had his little
37:51
buddy with him. Um oh, heck, I can't
37:54
remember his name. Agramar.
37:55
>> Well, you guys know I'm talking. Thank
37:56
you,
37:56
>> Agramar.
37:57
>> Yeah. And he had Agramar who was his
37:59
like his, you know, his squire buddy,
38:01
but that's it. That the rest of them
38:03
like the rest of them couldn't fight
38:05
directly. And they were so bad at it
38:07
that when they came to Azeroth, they
38:09
almost killed the place because, you
38:11
know, literally Amul just jammed his
38:13
hand in and ripped something out. Like,
38:16
dude, dude, that was that was connected
38:17
to things. You can't just yank things
38:19
out. Oh, sorry. I guess we're going to
38:21
have to make small people. So, it it
38:24
might be that simple. It might just be
38:25
that this is less of a grand triumph for
38:28
them and more of a quite frankly, it
38:30
might just be that the Titans aren't
38:32
very good at at controlling creation
38:35
because they're I think Odin, even
38:37
though he's not actually a Titan, is
38:38
very much he's very presentative of the
38:40
same mindset as Amthal where Amenthul
38:43
doesn't like anything he doesn't
38:44
understand whether or not it's enimical.
38:47
If he doesn't get it, he doesn't want it
38:49
around. And we see that in the the whole
38:51
bit at the end of Dragon Flight with the
38:54
new world tree where you find out about
38:55
the original world tree that was planted
38:57
to protect the world from the old gods
38:59
and how, you know, it effectively got
39:02
killed because Amthal didn't care enough
39:03
to help it. And you know, there's
39:06
there's the Titans. I feel like we're
39:08
we're heading for a point where we're
39:10
going to realize the Titans are also not
39:13
omnipotent and omnisient and and all
39:16
anything. They're they're powerful, very
39:19
very powerful, but they're not
39:22
infallible. And they've already been
39:25
shown to to be capable of being beaten
39:27
because they were. The whole reason that
39:29
the cosmos is in the state it is in is
39:32
that for untold millennia, the only one
39:35
walking around was Sargeras, which, you
39:37
know, again, that could answer the
39:38
question. Uh, ultimately, it may be a
39:40
combination of these factors. It may
39:42
simply be that there's there could be a
39:44
whole bunch of Titan shaped worlds out
39:46
there. They're just so far away that we
39:47
never interact with them.
39:48
>> Yeah, it could be that the universe is
39:50
full of like titans just kind of
39:53
ordering worlds that don't have anything
39:55
living on them. Just kind of gardening.
39:57
>> The other thing that I would like to
39:58
throw out there too is there's this
40:00
concept that I mean it we may see that
40:02
this has credence. We may not. Um, but
40:05
there's definitely in in implications
40:08
that Titans ordering worlds is not
40:12
necessarily altruistic in intent, if
40:16
that makes sense. Um,
40:18
>> Oh, no. I totally agree with you. I
40:19
think I already think that there that's
40:20
absolutely the case. Go on. I I want
40:23
Yeah, I get you on that. I believe you
40:24
on that. But the questioning the
40:26
motivations and obviously we'll get more
40:28
of this as we move closer through
40:30
Midnight and into into The Last Titan is
40:33
and people have asked this question of
40:35
why hasn't Azeroth woken up yet. But the
40:38
other thing that that always stuck to me
40:40
is Amanthul
40:43
had to know that plucking something out
40:46
of the shell of a nent Titan that was
40:50
burrowing through it was going to be
40:53
bad. this could not be the first time
40:57
that they had encountered this ever
41:01
because in a potential and and again
41:04
this is the the myriad concepts I can't
41:06
remember the exact name of it but like
41:08
the idea that there is an infinite
41:10
number of worlds and an infinite
41:12
expansive universe because you are
41:13
incapable of knowing the true edges of
41:16
reality. Therefore, it is true that
41:19
there are an infinite number of worlds,
41:20
in which case there's potentially an
41:22
infinite number of world souls. You
41:24
can't tell me that they've only
41:25
discovered a dozen of there's no
41:28
possible way that in the absolute bucket
41:33
infinite bucket of time that they've had
41:35
that there weren't, [clears throat]
41:37
excuse me, that there weren't more world
41:39
souls. Part of me wonders how many of
41:42
those world souls were intentionally
41:44
sacrificed through experimentation by
41:46
the Titan. And again, I
41:48
>> go ahead. I I think that that was the
41:51
other thing I wanted to bring up here.
41:52
When we fight Algolon and he says that
41:55
he has seen a million million lives
41:58
erased in the Makaker's flames. That's a
42:01
trillion a trillion lives. And we're not
42:03
talking about Azeroth with cities of
42:06
millions. Like that's that's a lot of
42:08
worlds to have been erased.
42:11
>> Here's the thing though. Let me let me
42:12
give you something to think about when
42:14
you're thinking about that. What counts
42:16
as a life to Algolon? Cuz you don't.
42:19
>> But a Titan.
42:20
>> Well, that just saying is he saying he's
42:23
seen a million million world souls die
42:26
in the Maker Flames? Think about if he
42:28
is saying that. If not saying that that
42:30
is what he's saying, but think about if
42:32
that is what he is saying that they
42:34
burned like trillions of titans that
42:39
weren't the way that you know Amanthul
42:42
wanted them to be. What that would mean
42:44
>> to me it seems like he's talking about
42:46
just living things who fought back as
42:50
someone came down and pushed the reset
42:51
switch like he was about to do.
42:54
>> He seems absolutely shocked that you're
42:57
doing that. like the concept that you
42:59
are capable of doing that not not even
43:02
that you've decided to do it that you
43:05
are capable of deciding to and and
43:08
you're capable of doing it because we
43:10
don't lose to him
43:12
>> right just like we don't lose to to
43:15
Argus we shouldn't be able to do this
43:18
from his perspective if the Titans have
43:21
similar mindsets it's quite possible
43:24
that they never considered any of the
43:27
things on a world soul planet as things
43:30
independently. They're just part of the
43:33
world soul.
43:34
>> Mhm.
43:35
>> And why is it so important to not kill
43:38
Azeroth if they've destroyed million?
43:40
Even if they've just destroyed trillions
43:42
of beings, they've probably would have
43:44
killed at least a a couple hundred
43:47
thousand titans because without Titans
43:51
on a without the Titan soul inside the
43:53
planet, those planets tend to spin off
43:55
out of their control. Anyway, we know
43:56
what would have happened on Drraanor if
43:58
not for Arag, you know, Agramar. If
44:00
Agramar hadn't created Grond, that world
44:03
was was doomed. It was going to eat
44:05
itself,
44:06
>> right? And there's no world soul there.
44:08
That's that's just Agramar kind of
44:10
dropping by and saying, "Eh, this could
44:12
be better." And dropping Grond and then
44:14
kind of around to watch one generation.
44:18
>> Yeah, I don't have time to order this
44:19
world. I'm busy, but I I can't leave it
44:21
like this.
44:23
>> So, yeah. Here you go, buddy.
44:26
Steam this up
44:28
plan.
44:28
>> Have some nice relics and I'm sure
44:30
you'll all be fine. They don't care
44:32
about the orcs. They don't care about
44:33
the ogre.
44:34
>> Or didn't even exist yet. The orcs only
44:36
exist because he did that cuz he made a
44:38
big rock guy and the big rock guy fell
44:40
apart into smaller and smaller rock guys
44:42
until you get the gnomes of Dranor.
44:44
Orcs, the smallest, most mechanically
44:48
inclined, cleverest of the Titan
44:50
creations on Drraanor. But if thr went
44:53
up to Agramar and said, "Hey, guess
44:55
what? You made my great great great
44:56
great great great grandfather." Agramar
44:59
would be like, "I don't care."
45:00
>> I I do that a lot, you know. It's It's a
45:03
thing. Congratulations.
45:05
>> For you, it was the most important day
45:06
of your life. For me, it was Tuesday.
45:10
Yeah. Like very very much very much that
45:13
energy when it comes to the Titans,
45:14
right?
45:15
>> And and
45:16
>> Yeah. And
45:17
>> Go ahead. I I just I feel like to a
45:20
certain degree we keep I feel like we
45:22
keep forgetting that the Titans in World
45:25
of Warcraft um let's just be upfront for
45:27
a second here. Metson was reading a lot
45:29
of Jack Kirby.
45:30
>> Oh yeah, a thousand%.
45:33
>> So the Titans are like a combination of
45:36
all the times that Jack Kirby created
45:39
godlike beings in his work. So what are
45:41
the ones to look at? Galactis, the
45:44
Celestials, and the
45:46
>> big Celestials energy. Big Celestial
45:49
>> Celestials energy, but also the new
45:51
gods. Um, there's a sort of I I remember
45:54
reading it. I don't remember where I
45:55
read it. I think it was probably on
45:56
Reddit or even Metapilter back in the
45:58
day. Wow, there's a there's a um talking
46:01
about how dark side and like Sargeras is
46:04
like the opposite of dark side. like
46:07
side dark side is like f fascistic
46:09
control and Sargeras's rage and and
46:12
anger and at the time nobody thought
46:14
about this but Aman Thu is every bit as
46:18
much about control. Aman Thu is control
46:21
is all he's about to the point where
46:23
when he found out that ANR was making
46:26
nice with with uh I want to call her
46:29
Wolf and that's not her name Aloon.
46:31
Thank you
46:32
>> was making nice with Aloon he got mad.
46:34
He didn't like that and he didn't
46:37
outright forbid it. And but I think the
46:39
reason he didn't outright forbid it was
46:41
because he was afraid of what Aloon
46:42
would do to him. And I say that because
46:44
I'm positive that whatever Aloon is,
46:46
she's not the same as a Titan. Well,
46:49
again, don't forget unlike a Titan, she
46:51
successfully has the power to kill an
46:52
old god.
46:53
>> Yep. Like, and not just her power, a
46:56
fraction of her power.
46:58
>> Yeah. She didn't show up and do it
46:59
herself. She said, "Oh, you here here's
47:02
some of my power. It'll kill you
47:03
eventually, but in the meantime, go take
47:05
care of that thing.
47:05
>> And it did.
47:07
>> Yeah. All that that happened.
47:09
>> Yeah. It's Yeah. I I just there's so
47:12
much potential here that for things to
47:15
go wrong and like going back to some of
47:17
the core the core elements of like the
47:20
root of the question here, going back to
47:21
the idea of like is Azeroth the first
47:24
true successful project? I think the
47:27
answer is yes, but not of the Titan. I
47:29
think it's the first successful project
47:32
of the first ones
47:35
because they are the ones that seem to
47:38
have been the ones that ordered the
47:39
cosmos originally, not the Titan. The
47:43
Titans,
47:43
>> it feels like the Titans are almost the
47:45
sub routines by which they did it. And
47:47
then, oddly enough, we've seen this a
47:49
lot of times with creations of the
47:50
Titans who are still executing Titan
47:52
commands millennia after the Titans are
47:55
no longer giving them commands. And it
47:57
feels much the same way, like the Titans
47:59
themselves are executing functions that
48:02
the first ones wrote into the cosmos but
48:06
aren't there to currently be activating.
48:08
And so the it's almost like the Titans
48:10
just don't know any better. It's like
48:12
you left your universal reformatting
48:14
machine going and it won't stop. It just
48:17
keeps doing this. Look, it it goes by
48:19
this one planet that clearly it was
48:21
never meant to reformat. It even tries
48:23
to reformat that on its way by like it
48:26
just it's doing a driveby and it made a
48:27
rock monster because it just this has to
48:30
be ordered but I have to go do the more
48:31
ordering over here. We have so little
48:34
information about their like overarching
48:36
plan and their their what they have been
48:38
doing like what what are they I always
48:41
wonder what they're doing like they they
48:43
find Azeroth and it's infested with old
48:45
gods and they think it's so important
48:47
and so they put all these installations
48:50
and they send you give their powers to
48:52
the keepers and then they kind of are
48:53
like we're needed elsewhere and
48:56
disappear like if that's the most
48:57
important thing in the universe wouldn't
48:58
you at least keep one Titan nearby I to
49:04
monitor and and protect and things like
49:07
that. Like so much has happened. The
49:09
Burning Legion is attacked. Maybe we
49:11
could have used your help and stuff.
49:12
Where were you guys during all that
49:13
stuff? Like
49:14
>> Well, they were dead.
49:16
>> They did. They did die. Yes. But
49:18
>> I mean, what's really interesting about
49:20
that is they went to meet Sargeras, who
49:22
was like, "Look, let's meet up and
49:24
talk." And they're like, "No, we did.
49:26
You don't have to kill all of them, cuz
49:28
we did this thing with this planet." And
49:30
that's the thing that made him snap. and
49:31
attacked them. Like they were like,
49:33
"Look, we we did this instead." And he
49:35
went, "Yeah, kill him." So there's just
49:39
we we have no we have no idea about so
49:41
much about the Titans that we kind we
49:43
keep having to make guesses and the
49:45
guesses are based on a simple like we we
49:49
only have what we've seen and they keep
49:51
changing what we've seen. Like the whole
49:53
deal with Argus,
49:54
>> if Algolon is reformatting planets and
49:57
erasing civilizations,
49:59
what's what's the goal? Is that to to
50:02
restart the world soul and try again? Is
50:04
he go is he just zipping around to the
50:06
same 15 world souls and doing it every
50:09
thousand years for a million years?
50:13
>> Well, yeah. And going back to maybe what
50:15
I was getting at before a little bit too
50:17
is part of me wonders if the titans were
50:21
not the planned outcome of the universe
50:25
and what the first ones had planned and
50:27
they are instead like the old gods like
50:31
the void lords a parasitic
50:34
thing on reality because and and Matt
50:36
pointed this out a long time ago. Um Ann
50:40
talked about this and we we've had
50:42
plenty of conversations about it.
50:44
Everything that they've set up, every uh
50:48
you know lab, every machine, every you
50:52
know research facility, everything has
50:55
been set up. And what does it do? It
50:58
captures and uses essence orma. And what
51:03
if Azeroth was so important to them? Not
51:07
because it was truly the last Titan. And
51:10
again, this concept of maybe Azeroth
51:12
isn't a Titan at all, but what if
51:15
Azeroth is the apotheiois
51:18
of the total sum of reality and because
51:22
of that is such a powerful power source
51:25
that it itself is what's sustaining the
51:27
Titans. And that's what they're going
51:29
for. That their goal is to essentially
51:33
self-propagate or at least self-
51:34
sustain.
51:36
But where are they getting their power
51:38
from? Right? Everything has a source.
51:42
And I remember I posited at one point
51:45
that each Titan represented maybe one of
51:47
the the the plains of existence or uh
51:50
one of the the key spheres in the grid
51:54
of reality. But what if it's not that?
51:57
What if they exist because they siphon
52:00
other world souls or because they are
52:03
taking the power of an animma source far
52:06
greater than we can comprehend because
52:09
again the last time we did that in a
52:11
frag we killed a titan and a fraction of
52:14
its uh essence went to the shadowlands.
52:17
It completely broke this entire
52:19
mechanism of the shadowland. What if
52:21
they've been sustaining themselves and
52:23
maybe they don't all know it. Maybe
52:24
Amenthul does. Uh or maybe Norgan does.
52:27
Uh who knows? But what if it all this
52:31
ordering of the cosmos is nefarious?
52:34
Because again, maybe it's not their
52:36
subine. Maybe they weren't planned like
52:39
by the first ones because I I keep
52:40
thinking of like the Pantheon of Death,
52:42
right? The Pantheon of Death was planned
52:44
by the first ones. We know that. We know
52:47
that this framework was put in place by
52:49
them before they disappeared as
52:52
caretaker. We know that Aloon feels
52:56
kinship with the queen of Arnwell, the
52:58
winter queen. Aloon's not a Titan,
53:00
>> Joe.
53:01
>> Yes.
53:02
>> I I don't know. I think this might be
53:04
one of those times where you've made the
53:06
thing you're thinking appear in my head
53:07
before you said it.
53:08
>> Probably.
53:09
>> Um the the Pantheon of Death have a
53:13
framework that keeps them in the
53:14
Shadowlands.
53:15
>> Uhhuh. And they are what?
53:17
>> Never.
53:17
>> Yeah. They're they're Titan created
53:20
things. Uh
53:21
>> they're not Titan created things.
53:22
They're not Titan created things.
53:23
>> First ones created things
53:25
>> but Aloon has never actually been
53:27
physically seen in our reality because
53:30
things happen
53:31
>> to us. We don't know because there there
53:33
are the stories, don't forget of Ani and
53:35
Munchi.
53:36
>> But who who wrote those stories? But but
53:38
but for a moment, let's just assume
53:40
Aloon is similarly staying out of our
53:43
realm.
53:44
>> Uhhuh. What if the problem isn't that
53:47
the the Titans aren't supposed to be
53:49
here but fell in? Like they were
53:51
creating something from outside and then
53:54
they fell in and that's why they have to
53:56
be, you know, encased in physical forms
54:00
in order to exist, right? Like the world
54:02
souls don't just pop out and they have
54:05
bodies. bodies they live in and they're
54:07
not supposed to go to the realm of death
54:10
because they're not supposed to be here
54:12
to go to the realm of death in the first
54:14
place. What if that's the thing and
54:16
that's what the void lords are doing?
54:18
The void lords are copying it. They saw
54:20
this calamity happen and they're like,
54:22
"Oh, we can do that." And there might be
54:23
other like the the whole thing with
54:25
demons is demons are entities of hell
54:28
that constantly keep entering our world
54:30
unless they're kept out. Like what if
54:32
these the systems that are supposed to
54:34
be keeping everything in balance are the
54:36
things that are either falling into
54:39
disrepair or which Azeroth is supposed
54:41
to be creating and can't create them
54:45
because it's infested.
54:47
>> Mhm.
54:48
>> I I that's the thing you made me think
54:50
while I was listening to you talk just
54:51
then. So
54:52
>> Oh, yeah.
54:52
>> It's It's been always weird to me that
54:55
every other kind of pantheon or power
54:58
can't make it into our universe. that
55:00
Dementius can only project a shadow of
55:03
himself and the Pantheon of Death is in
55:06
an entirely different realm. They're in
55:09
uh uh Zerith Mortise and they you know
55:13
we we barely got the Shadowlands are
55:15
their own their Shadowlands are their
55:17
own thing. But the Titans are just
55:19
flying around our universe just walking
55:21
around like what? Yeah, like like you
55:23
said they were dropped in. I'll I'll
55:24
drop one on you guys. What if to turn
55:27
that around? What if we're on Zerith
55:29
Ordice right now? And what if they're
55:32
trying to convince us that we are just
55:33
this is the universe and you're special,
55:35
but actually they're trying to do
55:38
something, expand and take over, but
55:40
we've been in that's why the Titans
55:42
exist here and that's why they're trying
55:44
to, you know, tidy up the corners. What
55:46
if our universe is just the realm of
55:48
order?
55:49
>> I I would say that I have reasons I
55:52
don't think it is and I'm talk. No, I
55:54
was going to say like I can understand
55:55
where where you would go with that, but
55:58
I think looking at the universe, I think
56:00
we're more than just order. Order can
56:03
exist here, but I think that's part of
56:06
the Amenthul's
56:08
disgruntledness with the universe, if I
56:11
would put it any other way,
56:12
>> that it has other things.
56:14
>> It has other things. It's not just
56:16
order. And I think and that's why I
56:18
think Azeroth is possibly something
56:20
different and and is not necessarily
56:23
Zerith Ordis. I think maybe he wants it
56:25
to be Zerith Ordis. Um
56:28
>> I I actually had this thought a while
56:31
back. If an entity like one of the
56:33
members of the Pantheon of Death came
56:34
into our reality, I mean, it would be
56:36
like the Lich King, right? The Lich King
56:39
is very similar to what that kind of
56:41
concept would be.
56:42
>> Yeah. to the point where it's it's
56:44
pretty obvious that the jailer was
56:46
working off of a playbook when he was
56:48
making the Lynch King. This got me
56:50
thinking, what if the Titans are not the
56:54
they're not the actual equivalents to
56:56
the Pantheon of of of death? Cuz we were
56:59
told the Pantheon of Death is far more
57:01
powerful and imposing. What if the
57:04
Titans are like the things sent into our
57:08
reality by greater masters outside of
57:10
it? Because look at how the Titans deal
57:12
with every problem. Make a smaller
57:15
version of yourself to deal with it or
57:17
burn it with a laser.
57:18
>> Yeah. But usually they're going to have
57:20
something smaller than them. Burn it
57:21
with a laser. [laughter]
57:22
>> You know, like we made we made these
57:24
things that that that will now make more
57:26
things and those things will be smaller
57:28
still and eventually we'll hit a level
57:30
of scale where it can handle the
57:32
problem. What if a cosmic force from
57:34
outside of our reality that wants to
57:36
order everything is looking in on this
57:39
and going, "This is nuts. this is not
57:41
working. I'll make smaller versions of
57:43
myself to deal with it.
57:44
>> So in that case, then the Titans would
57:46
be more on the order of the old gods.
57:48
They'd be the little infecting things
57:50
running around the universe trying to so
57:52
order instead of corrupt.
57:54
>> Yeah. I mean, we corrupt it in a
57:55
different direction. I ultimately I
57:58
think Azeroth's reality works best.
58:00
Azeroth itself seems to be obviously a
58:02
crossroads where everything can exist.
58:05
>> Yeah. It's a nexus point almost.
58:07
>> You're not a conceptual universe
58:08
anymore. or you're an actual universe.
58:10
And I feel like there could be, you
58:12
know, one of the things, the big secrets
58:13
the Titans might be hiding from us is
58:15
that they actually have, for lack of
58:17
better word, things above them in the
58:20
hierarchy, like kind of like the actual
58:23
Greek gods had the actual Titan who
58:25
created them. And there might be
58:27
entities that made the Titans. And it
58:30
might not be a power level. It might
58:31
just be this is the only way we can get
58:34
our influence into this reality because
58:36
as you pointed out, how come everybody
58:38
else has to create things to throw in
58:40
there, but but you don't have to do
58:42
that, you know, like like um the the you
58:45
know, Zal, the jailer had to create a
58:48
Lich King to serve him to do what he
58:50
wanted in that reality. He couldn't just
58:52
go in there. The the the void lords, you
58:56
know, Zenius can't just go in there. He
58:58
had to make things and throw them in.
59:00
The And the Titans just keep appearing.
59:02
It would make sense if there's something
59:04
out there that threw them in.
59:06
>> Yeah. Aloon can't manifest whether it
59:09
whether she's part of some pantheon.
59:11
>> She can't. We don't know. But it would
59:13
make sense if Aloon is the sim is a
59:15
similar type thing where she creates
59:16
night warriors because
59:19
it it could be like along the thing that
59:21
Amen found out when he tried to remove
59:24
the old god um Yash from Azeroth. He's
59:28
too big. He hurt her. He hurt her when
59:31
he did that. Joe was like, Joe made a
59:34
good point that there's no way he could
59:35
know. He couldn't know that that would
59:37
hurt her, but it might have been just
59:39
along the lines of I knew this was going
59:42
to hurt. I didn't think there was
59:43
another way around it, but obviously I
59:46
it did way more damage than I intended.
59:49
I should have gone with the smaller
59:50
plant. And similarly, the whatever made
59:53
the Titans might have done the same
59:54
thing. Like if we go in there, we're
59:56
going to wreck the joint. And for that
59:57
matter, the first ones may have coded
59:59
out all of this stuff keeping things
1:00:01
from going in there. It may have been
1:00:03
like, look, you know, you're you're
1:00:05
necessary for the creation here, but we
1:00:07
don't want you in there. If you need to
1:00:10
put something in there to fix it, go for
1:00:11
it, but don't go in there. We don't we
1:00:14
don't know. We know so little about the
1:00:15
first ones. We only know that a human
1:00:17
from Azeroth can can activate a first
1:00:20
one gateway. We don't know why. I am
1:00:22
very entertained by the thought of Aman
1:00:24
fool having to answer to a higher power
1:00:26
and grumbling about having to take
1:00:28
instructions from somebody else instead
1:00:30
of doing whatever he wants.
1:00:31
>> Yeah, that that is a good point. He
1:00:33
doesn't seem very suited to
1:00:34
>> Yeah, I mean we could go about this for
1:00:37
quite a bit. Uh but I think we need to
1:00:40
call it there unless you guys have any
1:00:41
parting thoughts.
1:00:42
>> Uh I have so many but I don't think they
1:00:44
they're they're good enough to share at
1:00:46
the moment. [laughter]
1:00:47
>> All right. All right. Well then,
1:00:48
friends, I do want to thank you for
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joining us on this week's Lore Watch and
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>> [music]
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