Up next in 10
Join our hosts Joe Perez and Matt Rossi as they discuss the lore around the Sethrak, the snakelike humanoids we initially met in Vol'dun in Battle for Azeroth. How does their worship of the animalistic Loa spirits shape their society? Titans may tie in to the animalistic loa, and the two working together may have shaped Azeroth as we know it. Plus, they discuss the evolution of species in the context of a magical world: when is a dragonfrog a froglike dragon and when is it dragonlike, but a frog?
This week's Lore Watch Podcast is a Sethrakstravaganza.
Subscribe to Lore Watch in your podcast player of choice to keep up with the latest episodes:
RSS: https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/6556539150cd070012089193
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lore-watch-podcast/id1023224738
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1CIJRbwbEVQfCg8r94HCwO
Visit us at https://blizzardwatch.com for the latest news on Blizzard games, and don't forget to subscribe on Patreon to support our efforts! https://www.patreon.com/blizzardwatch
Discord: https://discord.gg/MY9p4d7t8U
X: @BlizzardWatch
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
[Music]
0:09
hello and welcome to Lore Watch a round table free form discussion about luring your favorite media i'm your host Joe
0:14
Pres one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch and I've got my marvelous co-host with me today Matt
0:19
Rossy how you doing today Matt i have yet to be struck by lightning and gain superpowers which is annoying yeah the
0:25
whole lack of superpowers despite having terrible things happen to you is definitely not a uh a trend in real life
0:31
that I I wish was a thing but hey we're not here to talk about that although there will be talk of lightning i I'm
0:37
absolutely confident because it ties in with this uh today we're going to be talking about the Sethrack uh this comes
0:44
as a request from one of our listeners who goes by the name of Luke uh who really really loves the Sethrack uh we
0:53
haven't talked about them in a while and uh it seems like people are uh really
0:58
wanting to talk about them so why not we're going to go for it uh we would like to remind everybody that if you
1:04
have topics for the show that you want us to cover or if you have questions that you want to ask us you can go ahead and send those into
1:11
podcastwatch.com specify the show that it is for in the subject line as well as as any special pronunciation of your
1:17
name uh if you want to send us an information on Discord you can go ahead and send us any of that same questions
1:23
or topic stuff to the podcast and Q questions channel uh same rules apply if
1:30
you are a Patreon supporter you can go ahead and hit us up on the Patreon Q and podcast questions channel where we tend
1:35
to look there first as a way of saying thank you uh and if you want to send us messages on Patreon we also get those
1:42
actually Liz for made sure to forward me one uh which we will probably be getting into in the next round of questions so
1:48
the Sethrack lizard folk and they are from Battle for Azeroth we got
1:54
introduced to them as sort of enemies really at first right the uh the Faithless I think were the the first
2:00
sort of like interaction we really had with them i mean the way I interacted with them was that I went to a temple
2:07
full of Sethrack who were like "Hey we're we're your allies and then suddenly a bunch of other Sethrack
2:13
attacked and they're like "We're not." So but that's cuz I was playing Alliance i think Horde would actually fight the
2:18
uh bad guys first and then meet the good guys whereas for Alliance we go down and and almost immediately hook up with
2:24
those guys yeah and they they work in uh two very specific factions at least during the story line the Faithless and
2:30
then the Faithful which you know Yeah okay well what are they in faith to well they're in faith to the Loa uh Sethales
2:38
uh Sethales being the snake Loa that is not just worshiped by the Sethrack uh but was also worshiped by the Xandelari
2:45
trolls uh whose primary domain seems to be over lightning uh if you go into the
2:51
temple of Sethales where the avatar of Sethales lives or at least the remains
2:56
of said avatar uh everything is lightning themed it's all lightning themed it's all sort of that power of of
3:03
lightning that that speed uh and it seems to all really fit in well with sort of their motif even the area that
3:10
you go to where the temple is uh is just almost constantly in like this weird thunderstorm in the middle of the desert
3:16
uh which is you know pretty neat uh I I honestly I don't know where else to to start here so I'll turn over to Matt and
3:23
see if he wants to crack into any specific direction here because there's there's a few they're Titan constructs
3:29
we know that they are yep because we found that out later on well I mean we didn't it's not listed anywhere that
3:35
they are it's the Refty that are listed as Titan Constructs but the Refy and the
3:41
Sethrack look identical except that these the Refty have weird little horns cuz they're supposed to be more dragony
3:47
looking and now you're going to say "But Matt that's probably just an asset reuse." and I'm going to look straight
3:53
at you and go "Yes that's why we have lore to cover up and spackle over these
3:59
these reuses and and shortcuts." Um well it's one of the reasons well also I was
4:05
going to say some of them do have horns as well it's not just all of them some of the Seth do like uh Emperor Corric
4:11
Voric there's a few others that have them as well but the reason that I'm digging this one up it's not just the
4:16
resemblance uh but it's Sethales's power set for lack of a better word and the
4:21
fact that Sethales is is treated as a snake Aloa um and she was as people have
4:28
pointed out she was worshiped by both the um the Seth and the the trolls they
4:34
trolls called her an Aloa but what do trolls consider Aloa anything of sufficient power really yeah anything of
4:41
sufficient power we've met a trolla already that was a big robot in in old
4:48
not old why am I saying old in I mean old dear right yeah it's old air my god oldesh uh when you go there the first
4:55
guy you meet is a big robot the second one you meet is mother and there's lots of evidence that
5:03
the the Xandelari trolls were using Titan facilities including the fact that there's one right in the middle of their
5:10
capital city the Titan lock that was holding in the creature that the Seth
5:15
the Seth were fighting um you know Kahun really this whole deal with Mithrak uh
5:22
you know the awakener what was his name mithrax you know the big Yeah Mithrax uh Mithrax the unraveler is the main enemy
5:30
of the Sethrack especially Sethis what does that say to you guys i mean if
5:35
you're telling me that a big fell it's not even fell it's it's a void creature
5:40
uh big you know Chthrax is going around attacking people i mean we've seen the
5:46
last time Chthrax were walking around they were doing the bidding of Yagsaron
5:51
and working for for Loen who was again a Titan construct i think Sethis has all
5:57
the the harbingers of a Titan construct including that she shoots lightning everywhere that's like a main thing
6:03
we've seen several Titan forge that had control over lightning like that like Thorum you know it's it's practically
6:10
the same power set uh so that's one of the things I'm thinking i'm also thinking there's probably some
6:16
connection uh between um Illoon the Emerald Dream and Aeonar that we we
6:23
found out about in at the end of uh Dragon Flight that has a connection to Sethales in the Seth in the Seth and I
6:31
think that Sethales and the Seth might be patterned after dragons not not not
6:36
snakes like we originally thought yeah and I would agree I would agree with that like we we we everything you see
6:42
with them when they say snake loa or whatever there's generally some air quotes around there right we assume that
6:49
they're snake like uh but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are they they are probably closer to I guess I would
6:56
almost say like D&D cobalts where they're very much like dragonkin or dragon related lineage at least from
7:02
appearance because just look at them like aside from the longer necks which dragons have uh they have longer tails
7:09
which dragons have they have the the way that their legs are with the uh I forgot what the the way that that biologically
7:16
is called where the knee goes back into diggrade they have diggrade which is
7:21
very much like a uh dragon's rear legs uh well I mean look at the both the Seth
7:27
and the and the Refty if you look at their body type which is practically identical um you'll you'll notice that
7:33
it is similar to the kind of uh there's a specific kind of dragon kin that
7:39
serves the dragons that we that we've run into hundreds of times the ones that walk around and swing those glaes
7:45
everywhere mhm and and they're not even dissimilar to the newer ones uh the Draier they have a lot of similarities
7:52
to them too except they don't have wings so yeah I I have a I feel like there's a lot of connection there yeah and I think
7:58
so too the other interesting thing I think about it is how big uh Seth Rises
8:03
is because we see the Avatar right and most of the other lows we see with some
8:10
exception I think Moala is like by far the largest we've ever seen manifested uh as far as like what are considered
8:16
I'm air quoting Loa here uh everything else has been vaguely humanoid sized or or like large but not like titanic in
8:24
size sethalis was titanic in scale right like when we go into the temple when you go through the the that dungeon you
8:30
actually walk through the remains of Sethis like the temple is built around the remains of this creature of this
8:37
entity uh and it it itself looks very snake- like which I think is why people
8:43
assume that all of these that worshiped it are its descendants and are snakes uh
8:48
more so than dragons but again just the sheer scale of it like is is fascinating
8:54
to me uh and if you remember you might not remember this but when doing that dungeon there's a section where you
9:00
actually have to go and grab the eyes of Sethalis and place them into a skull to
9:06
open it up it's actually Sethellis' skull that you're you're animating and you're opening up right uh this thing
9:13
absolutely massive it entire adventuring parties can walk through it it's like a megalodon skull i mean mouth you know
9:19
it's just huge megalons obviously didn't leave skulls behind yeah and it makes me wonder if what Sethis actually was and
9:27
if it's a Titan construct or something that was made or or birthed by whatever
9:33
the Titans did to the area would make sense at least well one of the theories one theory I've seen is that the wild
9:39
gods are essentially Azeroth's version of Titan Forged yeah it would make sense and uh I mean this is a theory that I've
9:46
seen i don't know who came up with it i'm sorry i do a lot of reading so I end up you know absorbing a lot of this stuff and then I don't know who who said
9:52
it so whoever you are I apologize for ganking your stuff but uh one of the
9:58
arguments was that um Aonar was interacting with Aloon and created Freya
10:03
to basically shepherd the Emerald Dream and one of the things that we we know
10:09
happened was that the Emerald Dragon flight became a big part of the Emerald Dream mhm and if you have the Emerald
10:16
Dragon Flight you know serving as the as the stewards of the Emerald Dream well
10:22
we know that Volun was like a big reflection of that volun is a was a
10:27
jungle it was a very very fertile place probably almost certainly sacred to you
10:34
know the the emerald dragon flight and so if I I find myself wondering if
10:39
Sethales isn't to the emerald dragon flight what Rey was to tier and and the
10:45
dragons tier was you know working with like if the if the Sethales was essentially like a like a mega Rey that
10:53
served the Emerald Dream it's quite possible i mean we know that uh the Refty were created by Tier to work with
11:00
the Dragon Flights basically to serve as liaison uh she could have been the big liaison between the Emerald Dream and
11:06
everybody else uh and thus when myth when you know Mithrax showed up she
11:12
would have fought him you know uh and she fought him both in her Avatar state she might have fought him in her her
11:18
full incarnation no that she did that's that's what they that's what they that's the whole thing like where they believe
11:24
that that's why the remains are there in the temple right at least that's what they tell us they tell us that she she
11:29
fell fighting against uh the Cthraxi yeah but it's important to note that the Cthraxi is enormous mhm well you see you
11:38
see you see it in the the with the video when when the seals are broken and uh the the Myithrax goes and breaks the
11:45
discs right how big is Mithrax myiththrax is absolutely massive yeah so only something about the size that we
11:52
see in the in term of the body in the dungeon could possibly stand up to him in fact I sometimes find myself
11:59
wondering if you look at the temple the temple of Sethales when you look at it from a distance there's the enormous
12:05
head coming up mhm and you know the body winding around through everything i
12:10
think that's the scale i think it's the scale yeah and I also think that it's been the
12:17
head and snake like body sure it looks vaguely cobra-l like at first but those are wings look at them coming off of it
12:24
those are wings held up i think that they basically over time the the uh
12:29
animal to which the Seth and Sethales were similar to changed because it went
12:35
from a desert I mean it went from a jungle to a desert and like there just weren't as many different varieties of
12:41
animals and so everyone was trying to trying to understand what this being looked like and they used the only
12:47
example they had cognit which would be a snake um that is my current pet theory i have no idea if it's true but I
12:54
definitely think that the fact that the refy looks so much like Seth Rack and the Seth Roll and Seth Rollins um that
13:01
means something i to me I think it's very likely that Seth Rollins was some kind of Refty in much the same way that
13:07
we've seen you know um Noren as like a super uh Mou or you know Thor as a giant
13:15
sort of human mhm if that makes sense yeah i think and I'm trying to think of
13:22
of how to phrase this I also think they're a lot more ancient than I think people believe and not just saying
13:29
because they're Titan constructs uh I think they've been involved in a lot more as well and part of that is because
13:35
did you know we have one in Shadowlands we have a prominent one in Shadowlands do you did you do any of the Mel Draxis
13:41
stuff Matt that with the companions mhm i know this one in Mel Draxus you many the slaughter i don't I didn't spend a
13:48
lot of time talking to her but I do know that she existed yeah so apparently Ameny was a Seth princess originally in
13:55
their in their mortal life uh that you know was known as the dread sibling
14:01
slayer for murdering hundreds of their siblings to gain the throne uh which is
14:06
also why she just when she went to Mald Draxis she was front line as center she
14:11
was just a warrior born and through and through but that means that and we
14:16
interact with the soul too right and any soul we interact with before the body is constructed for her to reside in which
14:24
is the abomination box uh I think it's absolutely fascinating because it was the first hint after Battle for Azeroth
14:32
of how deep uh you really went with as far as the the the Sethales or the Seth
14:39
how how deep they went how tied they were because again it can manifest they they have spirits they have these are
14:46
living things just like in the same way that dwarves are uh and then when we got to uh Dragon Land or sorry when we got
14:55
to the Dragon expansion um and we w up going through and and seeing uh all
15:01
these constructs that were in the same form and interacting with them in Aldom
15:06
uh and seeing that oh no they existed elsewhere it start being de being this thing where you look at the Seth the
15:12
Sethrack and they're not they're not a oneanddone they're not a small thing and that kind of cracks them wide open to be
15:18
just like any other race in Azeroth really yeah and there's also another interesting thing to think about uh
15:24
since we're talking about um both battle for Azeroth and Dragonflight um
15:29
Dragonfly in particular there's a whole bit where various um beings that have
15:35
previously been described as created by the wild gods who are the lowa I mean
15:41
they're also other things are low but the wild gods are generally considered to be loa um the furbog are getting
15:48
turned into stone by weird elemental totems and what does that remind you of
15:54
the curse of flesh that we saw being reversed back in Cataclysm by Deathwing
15:59
who was working for the old gods uh the Mou had basically been reverse engineering and turning themselves back
16:06
into stone as well um I find myself wondering if the RefTeR this the form
16:12
from which the Sethrek came in much the same way that the Furbulk seem to have come from a stone bear form and the uh
16:19
we know that the Tvier and humans and dwarves and so forth all had
16:24
elementalbased ancestors that turned into the things that they are like you know humans and so forth because of you
16:31
know the what we've often argued both of us have argued that the curse of flesh is actually programmed
16:37
uh into all the Titan constructs on Azeroth it's what's supposed to happen to them uh it's definitely what the curt
16:44
the discs of Noran the real ones that we find in um Odon says is is what's going
16:51
on so I find myself really thinking there's a there's a whole lot more to the backstory of Azeroth than we've been
16:57
told as of yet i think you're right i think there the the backstory of Azeroth is uh much deeper and much more involved
17:06
than what we've been led to to essentially believe in game and I think we're already starting to see some shades of that and I think that the the
17:14
Seth rack and their lineage is tied in with that i wonder like going back to
17:19
something you said earlier and this is something that that has been sticking with me since you said it is wondering
17:24
if the Seth were originally involved with or constructed through anything to
17:30
do with the other Titans or if it was something that Azeroth made themselves going back to like the wild gods wild
17:37
gods are said to be this personification of of Azeroth the the hopes and dreams and sort of personality aspects almost
17:44
of Azeroth in a lot of regards one would assume that also part of that
17:50
personality would be a protector personality and I'm wondering if Seth Rollles may have been the manifestation
17:55
of that uh and I'm also kind of curious and this is going to sound really goofy
18:00
maybe but I'm wondering the truth about whether or not Seth Rollles was killed
18:06
by uh Mithrax or if there was something else at play here because again I we
18:14
talked about this before i not to go into complete wild territory with it i always wonder about it because at the
18:19
end of the day the rest of the Titans didn't really like the nature side of
18:24
things they didn't really like the wild nature aspect of it or at least Amthul didn't he hated it it just was anthemma
18:31
to what they were doing with order and everything I'm seeing with the Sethalis everything I'm seeing with uh Seth in
18:39
general is that they weren't necessarily beings of pure order and they may have aligned themselves with tier at some
18:46
point uh they're the the constructed or forged or earthn version of them as it were may have aligned themselves with
18:52
tier at some point but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were aligned entirely with whatever the Titans were doing right i mean it's also worth
18:59
pointing out that the Titans do not seem to have been as much of a hive mind as
19:04
we were originally led to believe because Aonarr very clearly had a difference of opinion as to how this
19:11
should be going oh yeah and Ag Agramar went off to find uh Sargeras without
19:18
permission they didn't tell him he could do it he just did it he's like I'm going to go get Sargeras now and left you know
19:26
he didn't they didn't know where Sargeras was they didn't know what was happening with him he just decided to go
19:31
and Amadul did was like he didn't give him any order to do this he just he was he did it before anybody could say
19:37
anything to him um so I find myself wondering how much of the Titan we we
19:42
see this too in the Titan Forged you know we see that Odin Odin is
19:47
technically the prime designate and yet the Titan Forged did not treat him as an all powerful leader um both Raen Master
19:56
Ra and Tier routinely just said "Okay whatever." And went off and did their
20:02
own thing um Roden to the point where he was running around the southern continents hooking up old constructs and
20:10
getting you know um oh boy heck I can't remember his old seven-headed name yash
20:16
yash thank you getting Yasharaj uh bits you know under in check as much as he
20:22
could and he didn't do he didn't ask you know him and Norushen's there the whole time acting like his second in command
20:29
nor you know we find Norushen in the heart chamber where where they kept the heart of Yag of you know why why do they
20:37
keep having chambers for hearts like you notice that's a that's an odd thing that they keep doing and that's something I
20:43
think that it ties to the fractal nature of these entities and thus if if Azeroth's creating her own it would make
20:51
sense that she'd be basically we know that Azeroth's consciousness seems to be constructed entirely of dreams mhm and
20:58
if we had you know Emerald Dragons as these big force of nature in the Emerald Dream if the Emerald Dream is basically
21:05
serving as Azeroth's dream repository it would make sense that there'd be Draconic figures being created as
21:11
guardians yeah and I think I think that's really it right like I that's where I keep coming back to is like
21:17
looking at the the Sethrak in general they're I don't want to say made for war
21:22
but like going back to the whole Ameny thing even in a time of peace they're
21:27
almost just very ready for conflict and that's part of like the whole deal between the faithless and the devoted as
21:34
well right it's a war it's it's almost like that's their primary directive is
21:39
to be sort of like a military-esque wing of the sort of Titan forge we'll just
21:45
call them uh because I'm looking I'm looking I'm looking at the other things that may have manifested from from
21:50
Azeroth like even the wild gods the wild gods themselves are not necessarily warlike entities they serve different
21:57
functions they foster different people yes they can fight and they have gone to war before but that's not necessarily
22:03
their primary function and then going back to looking at Sethalis and the Sethic uh or Seth it's it's very
22:10
interesting to think that maybe Azeroth knew or dreamed or or believed that they
22:15
would have to be defended and that there might be things that they would need to defend against and like you said the whole plucking of the Asher out of the
22:21
body that's a nightmare that's a thing that that Azeroth felt and I could see like a whole backlash of constructing
22:29
things to sort of take care of that or to prevent that from happening uh there
22:34
was a war that waged across it before the titans ever got to to Azeroth right
22:39
where you had the old gods the elementals going to war with each other vi like fighting for essentially what is
22:47
the skin of Azeroth or the the land masses and we know that dragons are
22:52
related to the uh elements and the proto dragons were you know before the
22:58
draconic form which was the titanic change to dragons yeah um there was
23:03
there were the fell dragon I mean not the fell dragons the uh the proto dragons and we've seen that they were
23:09
powerful um even like there some of them were like so powerful that they were like rivals to the elemental lords themselves
23:16
and I mean and then there's the one that uh tier corrupted by mistake yeah gacron
23:22
was enormous granted a lot of that was due to the whole influence of the old
23:27
gods on him but he was still massive even before that uh so I do find myself
23:33
thinking that you've got a point about the the the idea that they may have create may have been created by Azeroth
23:39
or by somebody else to serve as protectors especially since the fact that there were the devoted and the
23:44
faithless and the faithless and devoted used to live as one people mhm just like
23:50
and it's even says something like uh that Sethales is this is what Sethales wanted for them she wanted them to live
23:56
together and they even lived in harmony with the Xandelari um and it wasn't
24:02
until the the Akir war that the uh Chithrai you know Mithra Mithrax the I
24:10
want to say the I keep want to say the unmaker but the unraveler uh when he came to Volun he was heading for the
24:15
lock and he he murdered so many of both of the the trolls in the Sethrack that
24:21
it split it split the whole uh Sethrack population and Sethales basically gave
24:28
her own life to stop uh Mithrax but she won she beat Mithrax but it didn't it
24:35
didn't prevent Mithrax from destroying the disc and that's why the the lock wasn't per wasn't perfect uh that's why
24:42
the only two locks were the one in Old Dear and the one in um Xandelar it's
24:48
just called Xandelar City right yeah those two locks were the only ones that remained because the one of the
24:54
three had been destroyed by Mithrax just as Sethalis was destroying him so he
24:59
couldn't go unlock the other two so with all that happening it feels an awful lot
25:04
like the Seth just kind of they didn't have their for lack of a better word
25:10
their like their patron they didn't have the being that that basically said "We
25:15
need warriors and we need scholars." And so the warriors no longer believed in anything because the thing that they've
25:22
been following was dead and the you know the the other worshippers like don't
25:27
they don't die she'll be back yeah it's an interesting split because I mean it goes into the whole keepers thing right
25:32
which that's a whole other thing so Emperor Cor uh was a member of the Keepers which happened to be a trio of
25:40
uh Seth that were charged with creating and maintaining the seal of Atulaman uh
25:45
which is where Mithraxian Raler was was intombed right this was the whole idea of once once Mithrax was defeated at the
25:53
great sacrifice of Sethales that they would seal the the the Mithraxian
25:59
unraveler away seal the corpse of it away uh which we know from now time of memorial it doesn't matter the Cthraia
26:05
are just going to get back up at some point anyway but it was really important to have them sealed away and it was uh
26:11
again the keepers which modeled again probably after what they knew from Titans of Cortex Sulus and Voric uh and
26:19
it was Cortech who is Cor excuse me who is the emperor who was the leader of at
26:26
this point the the faithless uh who decided that he was going to want to crack the seal open uh to use uh the
26:34
power of mythrax to conquer uh everything conquer Xandelar uh and that
26:41
was the start of the whole thing but again it was one of those they were living in relative peace it had been
26:46
done they could be one people but they couldn't it's almost like Cor couldn't sit idle like he he had to wage war why
26:54
did he need to wage war on the rest of Zandelar why did he need to like you know steal this power was he corrupted
27:01
or was it just part of some baser instinct of I have to be fighting and if
27:06
there's nothing to fight I have to pick a fight yeah you mentioned earlier too if you look at Cor he's got horns mhm he
27:13
does not he doesn't look like most Sethrax you know he looks different and he does look quite a bit like a Rey not
27:21
identical um the the Refty horns are different but it's still interesting to think he might have originally been
27:27
similar to the way uh the way the um other Rey were he might have been a construct who got transformed as part of
27:34
the fighting yeah corax Slus and Voric may have all been that way yeah especially since you keep in mind you
27:39
know he decides he wants to bust out uh Mithrax and use him to conquer all of
27:44
Xandelar that's the kind of idea you get when you are corrupted by an old god because it's ridiculous if you're if
27:51
you're a sane being you you understand Mithrax is not going to do what we tell it to do but those devities to the old
27:59
gods and you know the void often believe that they can control these things even
28:04
though they can't and if that's you know if they were originally Titan forged who
28:10
were essentially corrupted by the curse of flesh which again you know we both think is a is a kind of like system for
28:15
turning things into living beings that was just corrupted by the old gods then
28:21
I it makes sense that he'd be like you know unable to to relinquish combat
28:26
because he was originally made to defend and he doesn't know what to defend
28:31
anymore he doesn't have again the patron Sethales is no longer available to him
28:37
and the fact that they call themselves the Faithless implies that they've abandoned her like they believe like her
28:42
sacrifice means that she's gone and they don't have anybody they can listen to anymore meanwhile the devoted are like
28:49
"No she'll come back she's right you know we can go to the temple and you know talk to her avatar it's it's it's
28:56
just as good it's still her." And they're like "No." So yeah Voric and uh
29:01
Voric and and Cor might really have been like the oldest amongst their people or
29:07
at least some of the oldest amongst their people because we know we know from uh the one you just talked about Slaughter we know that the Seth as a
29:14
whole are extremely longived mhm that over thousands of years they have 12
29:20
kings well I mean especially at this point cuz at this point uh Cork the
29:25
troll uh the trollure war was what 15,000 years ago give or take something like that 16 16,000 years ago 16 yeah so
29:32
16,000 like Yeah 16,000 years ago and they defeated Mithrex then and he's
29:39
still around like the three keepers were around during that time frame they live thousands of years sound like another
29:44
creature we know of mhm yeah exactly yeah it sounds very much like the Titan Forge um or the dragons yeah like the
29:52
dragons yeah absolutely um so yeah there's a lot going on to that um do we
29:57
know what happened to uh the third member so yeah so the third member of the keepers was actually slaughtered by
30:03
Cor in order to get the key uh to break the seal at the the the Zulamani so yeah
30:11
yeah that's what happened okay or Atulan um yeah so we there's a whole story arc
30:17
where we get the key we get bring it back to Voric who is now the new leader of the the Seth uh after we defeat the
30:26
the emperor um there's a whole thing there where we sort of reunify the
30:31
people and give them back their purpose the interesting thing is now that they're sort of rejoined with world cuz
30:37
that's that's the other aspect of it over the course of 16,000 years I can understand where somebody who is
30:44
programmed for war or that's all they know is to fight and defend even in a time of relative peace is isolated and
30:51
has nothing else to really do it's an easy sort of like way to worm in invasive thoughts right um but now
30:59
they're sort of back in contact with the rest of the world so every single
31:05
tragedy we have and I think this goes back to something that uh Luke is is very interested in as well as several
31:11
other people um it gives an avenue for the Sethrack to sort of join the ongoing
31:18
things of the world like I would not have been surprised to have seen Sethrek in the war within like in what we're
31:25
doing like where we are and like kind of curious like hey you know you helped us
31:30
out let us help you out a little bit and sort of be there as part of like the expeditionary forces i'm surprised that
31:36
we didn't see that yet because it seems like something they would want to be in yeah absolutely there are there have
31:41
been individual Sethrack that we have seen uh even in in uh the war within uh
31:48
there were some in Dragon Flight too well Dragon I don't remember i don't remember the War Within though i don't
31:53
remember seeing any yet the War Within yep uh there's a one named
31:59
Cashic i can't pronounce this cash he was basically seen um in Oramar and then
32:05
the Dragon Isles and now she's on the dragon sail expedition on the aisle of Dorne where she's she she goes both to
32:12
the fungal folly delve and she wants to go back to Volun to to show to tell them
32:18
what she's been seeing and doing since she left and that to me is interesting because I think that's your that's your
32:25
best way to bring uh Seth in is to have them you know be out to explore the
32:31
world because they haven't seen it in so long they haven't left Volun much less they haven't even seen all of Xandelar
32:38
mhm you know they saw mostly Volun they stayed in the desert and the desert was created when uh Sethales died which to
32:46
me definitely lean leans towards that whole Emerald Dream ideal if you kill a being who is essentially tied to the
32:52
Emerald Dream it it would probably cut the dream away for a long time and we
32:58
know that Sethalis was supposed to have been reborn by now but she didn't she didn't come back yeah and we know that
33:04
we know that that was partially being held in stasis by uh the priests who were essentially I don't want to say
33:10
torturing the Avatar but I can't really think of a better way to phrase it the the whole thing that we go and we save
33:16
the Avatar of Sethales that ritual was being performed to keep Sethis from being reborn from coming back that was
33:23
sort of the whole point of it which means that at this point she may have started her rebirth finally well we
33:28
don't know right because what happened immediately after that expansion we go into Shadowlands shadowlands has the animma drought we don't know if Seth if
33:36
Sethis is able to come back or if it was part of the souls that were lost in Ardan weld we don't know that hasn't
33:43
been filled in yet right nope hasn't been mentioned and we know that we already lost one wild god right to this
33:49
to this event we one wild god was sacrificed for this they did my boy dirty on that one but Seth Rollles could
33:56
have also fallen to that we don't also don't know how many other Loa uh yeah we know that there were two Loa that we saw
34:03
uh in Ardan Wield one of whom was our old friend Hakar and um who was the
34:09
other one we we've interacted with a few of them so we had we had Oh no we saw Mala and we saw uh Guan Sami yes the two
34:17
of them were both in there as well but there was uh Hakar and another one that was working with Hakar as well i can't
34:23
remember the other one i'm sorry no no that's okay uh but I mean we we have uh we interact with a few Loa because
34:30
that's sort of like the whole thing that's happening during this um but there's mentions of several of the
34:35
others there's mentions of of some of the other wild gods um it's it was a
34:42
weird position to be in but again it's just this sort of it's to drive home the
34:47
point that I don't know that full inventory or stock was taken in Ardwell
34:52
so we can't really know who's coming back and who's not and we get some small
34:58
ideas of it and Bomb Somdi actually you know has some sway over that now cuz now
35:03
he is the lowa of of death all on his own is no longer
35:08
there so he sort of controls that door a little bit and we don't know which ones are allowed to come back which ones
35:14
aren't or which ones would have been completely consumed but it is possible that we will never get Seth Rollles
35:20
again we don't know i mean the Avatar is up and walking around so it could be a thing where they could come back or
35:26
their energy could be preserved in that particular form we've seen other entities that have done something like that looking at the Titans slamming
35:33
their essence into mortal vessels or keeper vessels so there's a possibility for it but I think there are so many
35:40
opportunities for them to come forward like not just as expeditionary stuff which I think would make sense they
35:45
could be guards they could be like they could travel at this point with the Vulpera vulpera are are pluckucky but
35:52
they're not necessarily warlike uh they can fight but they don't necessarily have to fight they're more interested in
35:59
you know having a nomatic life and finding new things and experiencing new things the Sethrack could very easily
36:06
now that there's peace between them hey you know you we're going to go on this caravan ride to this other land that
36:11
we've never seen for before would you like to come along and make sure that we don't get ganked on the way and I could
36:16
see that being an an easy way to transition them in there's also something else that we talked about last
36:21
week that I think is sort of looming on the horizon that I think the Sethrock would be uniquely suited for and that's
36:28
the Arafi Empire we don't know if they're going to be friend or foe we know that they wield the light we know
36:34
that being an empire and interact with their people they're very militant they're very I don't want to say warlike
36:41
because we don't know their culture but there's a whole thing of service and and being in the military and sort of having
36:48
that sort of training and discipline that they're ready to go at the drop of a hat we go in there it's possible that
36:55
we're going to be met with complete opposition and not even get a chance to even introduce ourselves before we're at
37:00
war and having somebody like the Sethrack who are bred for war and are
37:05
very good at it because let's like a handful of them can be a problem having
37:10
them like hey listen remember how we helped you like you know get your get your stuff together and figure out your
37:16
people and come back together as a one individual group we need your help we we need you to join in and like we're going
37:23
here we've tried doing the diplomatic thing it's it's definitely gone sideways
37:28
uh we're still reeling from decades of war do you want to join and pitch in and
37:34
from a lore perspective at least in my opinion that's an easy way to get this is an allied race for both factions
37:41
where it's like yeah sure we'll join up we'll we'll we'll send people to to help you out it's the least we can do plus we
37:46
like war it's great let's go we like we like fighting also there's another possibility too though what's that who
37:53
made the you know if we think that the Seth that Sethales and the Seth are tied to the Rey Tier is said to have made
38:00
Refty to help serve help lies between the uh dragons and the the uh Titan
38:07
forged who came back in in Dragon Flight Tier so one of the things Tier is doing
38:13
is liazing with the new dragon flights which are now you know linked to Azeroth
38:18
and not the Titan for the Titans they're linked to Azeroth and Azeroth's power right
38:24
the Refty and the Seth could have met in Dragon Flight because there's a dra
38:30
there is a Seth wandering through the Dragon Isles the same one that that is
38:35
also in War Within so what if the Seth and the Refty get to talking and we find
38:44
out something about their origins whatever it is um you know whether it's that the Refty were made somewhat in the
38:50
image of the Sethrack or the Sethrack are curse of fleshed Rey that Sethales
38:56
was like a a one of those Titan keepers uh similar to Noren who was you know
39:02
made for a specific purpose like you've pointed out already that she seems like a protector defense bot um it it implies
39:10
that you could basically have a link between the earthen and the the uh the
39:16
Seth in that both would basically you know the earthen have their flesh descendants all around them now they
39:23
have dwarves all over the aisle of Dorne the Refty could show up cuz remember we still don't know there's somebody
39:30
involved in something about the aisle of Dorne and what's happening there was a
39:35
Titan keeper of some kind that was doing something and we don't know what it was
39:40
it's been taken out of the uh Earth's like stored memory and considering we
39:46
have an old god thing she's not an old god but she's like old god related uh
39:51
running around as the main villain of the at least the next this expansion and possibly the next one as well and we
39:58
know that a a proto drake was working with her and could come back at any time
40:03
i think the Refty having you know forming a bond with their quoteunquote descendants and possibly helping return
40:11
Sethales could be a major deal like I could see that being a big story for the Seth imagine finally getting to bring
40:18
Sethales back and now the the Faithless wouldn't The Faithless are are the most
40:24
hardened warriors amongst the Sethrack mhm and but they lost the last time
40:29
because we you know we beat them what hap like could a returned Seth Rollins
40:34
unite them again because they were living in harmony before her loss if she
40:40
comes back and basically takes over the Refty because you know up till now they're basically working for Mara
40:46
because there's nobody else to give them any orders what if now the Refty can go back to working for Cesarales maybe
40:51
they're supposed to be the whole time and now they can basically liaz between the Seth and the you know and the
40:58
dragons like they're supposed to and now you've got Sethales back so now you've got that you know the war leader and her
41:05
soldiers just like how Norushen worked for the Mou before uh they turned on Rod
41:11
End because you know they wanted to pull the Titan juice out of him i I think there's a a lot of possibilities for the
41:17
Sethrack basically dealing with the fact that lorewise they're the opposite of
41:23
the the role serpent people usually play in in in role playing games you know they're not they're not like this evil
41:29
force that's corrupting everything they're basically direct followers of
41:34
divine of a divine presence and they want to keep the planet going you know that's everything you see of them in
41:40
Battle for Azeroth is them trying to stop uh Mithrax from his goal trying to
41:46
prevent them from unlocking that which was locked away they want to keep Alder locked down and you know I don't know i
41:52
I feel like there's a lot of possibilities there i think you could also even see Volun get restored which I
41:58
think would be interesting maybe it wouldn't like immediately get fixed but like you could see small pieces of it
42:03
get reclaimed which we've already seen precedent for that in like the the the bad lands or not bad lands uh near the
42:10
crossroads right we've already seen Yeah we've already seen that they can be
42:15
restored that stuff like that can come back from so definitely a possibility i mean there's there's so many different
42:22
ways that they could come back and be relevant and I think that's really I think it's interesting i think they have
42:28
some of the most potential out of some of our our I don't want to say allied races because I mean we don't know if
42:35
we'll ever get to play them or if they're just going to be relegated to story i know a lot of people would love to play them i mean hell I would love to
42:41
play uh as my Tuscar uh but it is interesting to see how many different
42:46
avenues they could i was wondering how you were going to get the Tuscar in here i see myself going how is he going to
42:51
get the Tuscar in the middle of an entirely not Tuscar episode but he found
42:56
a way he's like life in the Jurassic Park movies listen which actually No go ahead i was going to say I have I have a
43:03
very specific set of needs and I feel like Luke understands them uh because with with the way that that they are
43:09
with the Seth rack I am with that way with the Tuscar but you go ahead Matt i'm just going to say like one of the
43:14
things too that is if we if we accept that the Refty are the ancestors to the Sethrack which we don't know but but
43:22
it's a good postulate that means that the the Seth are related to dragons and
43:27
we've already postulated they might be related to the Emerald Dragons in some way um I really one of the things I
43:34
think would be really cool is to see them brought the Sethrack brought into Dragon Kind and like we see dragon all
43:40
over the place we see the various tenders and there's the big muscular powerful ones there's the four-legged
43:46
ones there's now the Draxier i'd love to see the Sethrek rolled in as like you
43:51
know we could have dragons that are a little bit more snake- like we could have this new dragon group because we've
43:58
got all these new dragon flights that are part of the the you know associated dragon nation for lack of a better word
44:04
uh that Vinoth brought in right like the Storm Drakes um I I really think it'd be
44:09
kind of interesting to see if we could find like a dragon because quite frankly Sethus' mage body main body the one
44:16
that's basically making up the temple it doesn't seem to have been humanoid it seems to have been like a dragon like
44:23
it's huge it is massive and it makes me think it makes me think too about other places that have a a troll connection
44:31
and have weird gigantic serpentine things moving around in them like Gold
44:37
where there's just this enormous is that a snake or not we don't know but it's huge and it's going that way and you
44:43
don't fight it you just see it you know it's like whoa how big is that i I'd
44:48
like to see more of this stuff get explored and played around with um the the idea of the proto dragons being just
44:54
one of many kind of proto draconic entities would be interesting to me if
44:59
if in addition to the things that with wings and tiny little arms that the protoreaks were is there one that's
45:06
basically serpentine with giant wing hoods there's there's a lot of ways you could play around with the Sethrack and
45:12
the history of Azeroth and things that are related to them yeah it sort of opens up a little bit of that as well
45:18
but like when we were going at the Dragon Aes uh and looking around at all the things that were like dragon
45:23
adjacent um maybe they're not dragon adjacent maybe they're just dragons like
45:28
we have like the dragons that were or the the toads that were like dragons or the birds that are like dragons or all
45:34
these other things it starts having this conversation of what if these were just other different evolutionary flavors of
45:40
dragon right or for that matter I mean you know we know that that dragons can take various visages and in those visage
45:47
forms they can have relationships with beings that look like their visage form right
45:53
what if there are some dragons that just straight up prefer to have relationships
45:58
with nonhumanoid things like you know in my natural form I am a gigantic
46:03
four-legged thing why do you think I'm attracted to you two legs you know it's
46:08
quite possible that some dragons visage forms are just you know dragon cats or
46:15
dragon you know whatever maybe there's you know maybe one dragon was really attracted to owl bears for some reason
46:21
look at the plumage i I don't know but I think you can have a lot of possibilities i like the idea of there
46:26
just being like different flavors of dragon like if a dragon just wanted to be you know like the jade serpent isn't
46:34
like is the jade serpent a dragon i mean you know it's it's called a cloud serpent but let's be upfront is that
46:41
thing a dragon well the jade the jade one I don't think is I think that's more akin to like a wild guy but cloud
46:48
serpents in general are cloud serpents dragons yeah i mean I think they count as dragons for the purposes of like you
46:53
know taming them right or dragon kin i think so and think about it this way
46:59
sure the jade serpent is more like a wild god but we've just got done talking about how the thrralis might have been both a titan creation linked to dragons
47:07
and a wild god who's to say you can't have a dragon wild god you've got a bear wild god why not a dragon and maybe
47:15
that's what Sethis is and for that matter you know again these are like if
47:20
the wild gods and the lowa are are Azeroth's version of the like apex titan
47:26
forged they might just all be the same thing like the lowa theory might be right anything sufficiently powerful is
47:33
a lowa you know if it's if it's powerful enough and it's willing to do stuff it's
47:39
a lowa you know whether it's gunk who is basically just a raptor right gunkk
47:44
doesn't appear in any other form gong just shows up as a talking raptor um so yeah I I think there's a lot of
47:50
possibility for for for lack of a better word a non standard aspect of Azeroth
47:57
getting to see reptiles and serpents and dragons in a in a new light uh seeing
48:02
them as you know on Azeroth they're more often than not the defenders they're not you know even the ones like the
48:09
Faithless they're not portions of evil yeah the Faithless were following a bad leader who himself might have been crazy
48:15
because of old god corruption what race on Azeroth hasn't had old god corruption drive them nuts at this point you just
48:22
Well the Seth are bad well geez humans would have to go you know orcs everybody
48:27
nobody's left now who do we get to be we don't get to be anything dwarves no there's there's dwarves that fell to
48:33
that elves no are you kidding me it's like okay yeah torren nope nope okay
48:39
yeah there's a whole legend about the Earth Mother okay i I don't know yeah so I I do think it'd be interesting to to
48:45
have to bring the Seth in not just because of all the stuff we've been talking about but another story related
48:51
reason which would be that they're the first step away from a a very conservative paradigm up till this point
48:58
the only real playable race that has moved far away from the paradigm is the
49:04
Torin because the Torren are basically minotaurs otherwise everybody's pretty much the same head feet leg you know
49:10
trolls elves uh even the foresaken the Dreni you know it's still the same basic
49:18
body plan the Danai get get a little bit further out and the uh torren get a little further out from that but the
49:23
Sethrack would be the first step into really getting inhuman and then what if you from the Sethrack how hard is it to
49:30
do Naga now you just replace the lower half with a snake and are the Naga
49:36
copies of the Sethrack like did did um N'oth turn them into snake people why
49:42
didn't he turn them into fish yeah it would make sense because like I mean if you think about it there there's definitely got to be a correlation there
49:48
because if Sethales defeated an old god entity chances are high that the old god
49:55
and the old gods themselves knew about uh Sethralis and again this is 16,000
50:00
years ago um and if snakes prove an effective form or at least dragons in this sort of
50:08
like lizardish uh adjacent uh thing serve an effective combat form it seems
50:15
like something that the old gods would definitely try to uh commandeer and the naga seem like that would be a likely uh
50:22
avenue for them to do so um and for that matter because they are they are similar to more similar to lizards and snakes
50:27
than they are uh fish right now yeah and which we we know the old gods were messing around with the emerald dream
50:33
too mhm the whole Emerald Nightmare was caused by them and they're the dragons of nightmare four you know four emerald
50:40
dragons that serve directly as as part of the nightmare so there's a lot of possibility in terms of them trying to
50:47
usurp or suborn dragons uh we there's a lot of possibility for that as well i just I really feel like one of the
50:54
things I'd love to see World of Warcraft do is is to try to get a much more diverse pallet in terms of what you can
51:00
play not that it's doing terribly for you know there's more more choices in
51:06
WoW than there are in a lot of games but I don't see any reason why we shouldn't want more of them and I the Seth the
51:11
Seth do have a lot of story possib um maybe not as much as the Tuskar uh I
51:16
don't want to like you know I don't want to forget our Tusky friends um but yeah I definitely think it it it'd be it'd be
51:24
a cool stepping stone towards other possibilities you could branch out to in the future yeah uh I don't know how much
51:29
else we can really talk about there so I think that might be calling it good unless there's anything else you want to add i do want to mention really briefly
51:36
because you you um Luke sent us this entry i think this is from one of the uh
51:41
it's one of the woow books like the exploring kalumor one or whatever but it talks about they've been slowly
51:47
fostering relations with the vulpera and I think that's also really cool and then they've contacted the temple of akunda
51:54
and the low of new beginnings is gaining worshippers among the seth uh who who
51:59
felt too wounded by their war against the faithless and some of the faithless who had laid down their arms and wish to
52:06
find peace that's interesting to me because it also implies that the Seth have reached a point where they are
52:13
starting to branch out to praying to other things than Sethis like the faithless are like you know what we
52:19
don't need to be faithless just because we don't believe Sethales will ever come back it doesn't mean we have to worship
52:24
nothing yeah and and Akunda is sort of in that same vein right like Akunda is is lightning is sort of like defense is
52:33
something that's not unfamiliar to them so it would make sense that they would like look and say "Okay Akunda's you
52:40
know that's a big lizard he's also a big lizard." Yeah yeah and that's I mean
52:46
quite frankly you know he looks like a big Demetradon like looking thing i think he's like a Demetradon/ Stegosaur
52:52
uh but regardless yeah he he's cool and I could see Akunda being popular among the faithless because he you know he the
53:00
storm thing the fact that he's offering a new a new beginning to people so yeah
53:06
I and I think that it would be interesting to see like what what does a Seth that's discovered the holy light
53:11
and decided it liked it look like you know there's there's the Xandelar that have that used the light there could
53:17
there could easily be a Seth or or what is a what does a Seth that has found shamanism look like yeah what are shaman
53:24
what are shamanistic Sethrack you know do are all their their totems are all various like you know big reptile heads
53:31
like do they could you have a Seth druid who's all of its animal forms are
53:36
basically dinosaurs you know uh similar to the in fact they could even just be using the xandelari forms because the
53:42
xandelari forms are all reptilian maybe those are the maybe they learned those from sethreak
53:48
you know there's a lot of possibilities I think it the are one of the cooler ideas for a new race in World of
53:54
Warcraft they're just below the ogres from the other the alternate Dranor who
54:01
I really like the uh the Empire ogres yeah I think that's just that's personal just like you like the Tuscar i like
54:08
those ogres well in fact really cool what I was going to say is like they they are what we like as far as like
54:14
introducing new uh races or new uh lineages into a game world right they
54:22
have they they buck some of the more uh stereotypical aspects of what would
54:28
normally be associated with them they have a lot of potential they have infinite like ability to integrate into
54:35
the story like those are the type of things we like to see and then immediately after they were introduced
54:42
they're growing right they're becoming a living thing and I think that's one of the more important things one of the
54:48
more important aspects of uh heritages that are introduced into World of Warcraft is are they throwaways or are
54:56
they things in which we we see them evolve are they are they just moments in
55:02
time cuz that's like for a long time that's what things like this were they were just moments in time that were
55:08
introduced and then you know maybe we get some story with them later but here even if it's quiet they're continuing to
55:14
evolve so yeah I think they're they're they're very interesting i think they're I've loved them since I've I've saw them
55:20
i thought they were fantastic uh and I would love to see more done with them i think it would be very very good for us
55:26
to see uh more things done with them in the future and with stuff that's coming in well we might there there's plenty of
55:34
opportunity as everybody has pointed out here but I think we're going to end it there again Blizzard Watch is made
55:39
possible due to the generous contributions of patreon.com/b blizzardwatch your continued support means that this podcast site and
55:45
community is able to thrive and grow blizzard supporters exclusive benefits like early access to the podcast better
55:51
chance your question on our podcast in the queue and an ads free site experience if you have questions or
55:56
topics that you want us to cover for this or any of our podcasts be sure to send those into podcast at
56:01
blizzardwatch.com specify the show that it is for in the subject line as well as any special pronunciation for your name
56:06
you can hit us up on Discord as well in the Q podcast questions channel uh and if you are a Patreon subscriber you can
56:12
do so in the Patreon Q and podcast questions channel uh same rules apply for both of those uh if you want to hit
56:18
us up on Patreon directly you can do so as well and Liz will ensure that we get those messages but with that folks we'll
56:25
see you next week [Music]
#Arts & Entertainment
#People & Society