Up next in 10
The new Lorewalking feature in World of Warcraft is one we can use to explore more moments from the game we haven't seen, or explore the ones we have seen more in-depth. A listener wrote in and asked Matt and Joe which other points of lore they'd like to see show up in Lorewalking later, so of course, the entire hour is devoted to answering that question. From the huge, earth-shaking moments involving the Titans, to the old events leading to the current ones with the lineage of humans, all the way to long-forgotten quests, there are a lot of story beats they'd love to experience from a new angle.
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[Music]
0:10
hello and welcome to Lore Watch round table free form discussion about lore and your favorite media i'm your host
0:15
Joe Perez one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch and I've got my lore walking co-host with me today
0:21
Matt Rossy how you doing today Matt it's more like lore spinning at the moment or lore vaguely lurching around not so much
0:28
Lord walking that requires like you know focus direction and I'm I'm not capable of that right now i I can't argue with
0:34
that all right lurching well friends we were continuing our discussion today uh about
0:42
lore walking and in particular if you listen to the last episode we covered the three that are available on the uh
0:51
PTR right now and again that's subject to potentially change depending on how things go but we reported on them and
0:57
commented on them in their current state the one today is actually provided by a
1:02
somebody who is completely and totally anonymous and uh nobody knows whatsoever
1:08
uh and was sent to us via Discord and as a reminder if you have questions or topics or things you want us to cover go
1:15
ahead and send those in to uh podcastardwatch.com that's our email address put in the
1:21
subject line what show it's for and any special pronunciation of your name in the body of the email uh if you want to
1:28
hit us up on those Discord channels we have the Q and podcast question channel which is open to everybody same rules apply if you are a Patreon subscriber
1:35
you can go ahead and hit those hit us up on the patron Q and podcast questions channel uh and then if you are a Patreon
1:42
subscriber you also have the other option of going to Patreon and dropping us a message there and making Liz send
1:49
it to us i really like this option because it makes Liz feel like she's involved and I'm okay with that uh this
1:56
one is actually a I'm not going to read the question in the way that it was phrased but it was basically asking us
2:03
what we would like to see as far as like the stories in Lower Walking like what they would be and I don't know about you
2:11
Matt I've I've given it a lot of thought of what I would like to see but I'm curious what your choices are or at
2:16
least your first choice and then we can bounce back sully Blue I'm sorry what
2:22
sully Belaloo specifically Sully Belaloo's letter interesting that's a
2:27
deep cut that's the uh the one that's uh in Old World right that's Iron Forge the
2:33
Wetlands yeah no it's it's related to Iron Forge but it starts in the wetlands oh that's right yeah cuz you go because
2:39
you you bring it to Sarah Belaloo right or something like that yeah you bring it to Iron Forge once you find it and then
2:46
she bring then you get the my dear Sarah letter and you can read it and it's real
2:51
effing sad well isn't it based off a real letter oh yeah it's based on a real Civil War um letter from uh Sullivan i
2:59
don't remember the guy's name sullivan Belaloo that is his name yes and I don't think it's spelled the same i think it's
3:05
B- A L L A O U or something yeah it ends it ends with a U instead of an O inside of the game yeah yeah but
3:12
uh basically what happens is like I said you're in the wetlands doing other stuff
3:17
like you're not even This isn't one of those quests that automatically triggers which is one of the reasons I think it's
3:23
a good it's a good inclusion into lower walking type stuff because you could
3:30
easily missed it even if you've been playing for like however many years like you if you've been playing for 20 plus years you could still have missed it and
3:38
so I say this as somebody who didn't get to play it until like a year and a half into the game i had already leveled
3:44
multiple characters through the wetlands and I just stumbled upon it while I was doing other stuff it's just out near one
3:51
of the bridges that's broken that would otherwise go into the the zone north of the wetlands
3:59
which is I want to say Rathy it might not be a Rathy wow man it is hard to remember where all these zones are but
4:05
when you go there you basically find that there's a bunch of dark irons blowing up the the buildings and so
4:11
forth and you're like "Oo wow we got to stop that." And while you're doing that uh you can stumble upon the letter cuz
4:17
it's just laying there on the bridge next to like there's a bunch of dead bodies you pick up the letter and it's like you know this is something you
4:24
should take Tyron Forge and you take a Tyron Forge and you give it to his wife
4:29
and she basically reads it and you get to hear it i think there's like an actual quest where you see it from the
4:35
perspective of Sully and and his like his other dwarven soldiers as they're getting
4:41
wiped out but even if it isn't it's still worth it just for the like you know just for the I I don't want to say
4:47
human touch because they're all dwarves but just for the the small touch the you know we World of Warcraft is often about
4:53
huge giant things happening but the the the personal cost of what's going on is
5:00
often missed and I feel that that's one of the reasons I'm saying this quest because I always felt like this is a
5:06
nice example of the real cost of what you end up doing these people who end up
5:11
in in the military of the various factions in this case it's not even like it's not even dwarves against orcs it's
5:17
dwarves against dwarves you know it's dark iron dwarves versus regular bronzebeard dwarves and Iron Forge and
5:25
it's not like it's it's not all one-sided dark irons are evil but it is
5:30
very much a it's like almost it's just tragic it's tragic that this young man
5:36
dies you know he'll never see his wife again she'll never see him again it it's just it's really it's a quiet moment and
5:42
it's one of those things you get a lot and and wow and I think it was definitely more impactful before we had
5:47
the Shadowlands and all that stuff fleshed out and before we knew and even then it might not be that they meet again but you're right I forgot that
5:53
this is a whole quest chain like it's it's you find the letter you go to her
5:59
and then uh Magny Bronzebeard gets involved and winds up making a tribute to him like I think it's the whole thing
6:06
it's called like a king's tribute or something like that but like I vaguely remember this cuz I was playing Alliance
6:11
in in uh Vanilla WoW for a good section of time uh at least half of the time in
6:17
in Vanilla WoW and I remember stumbling upon that when leveling because for whatever reason I took my night off to
6:23
go level in dwarf lands don't ask um that was actually a very common thing
6:29
when you hit the level to go like you were like level 12 or something you could go over and continue doing the the
6:35
night off stuff but if you wanted to get to Iron Forge or Stormwind where the trainers were you could immediately get
6:41
on a boat and go to the wetlands and then you could just run to Iron Forge and once you get to Iron Forge you could
6:48
just go straight to Stormwind like there's a tram so you could you could do a trifecta and just get to all the
6:54
cities so you could start training earlier but um I did that I But you ended up leveling in the wetlands
7:00
because you're running across the wetlands it's fair you might as well like Yeah you might as well do the quest
7:06
but I remember I remember so I think this is a really interesting and I think it's a good choice because it has the
7:12
potential to follow the sort of like the threeact uh reveal that they've been
7:18
sort of putting up for uh the the lore walking right so you could have the
7:26
whole thing of like oh do you remember this quest this letter blah blah blah and it could take you uh to the time
7:33
before right like you're saying like it could take you back to when the division between the dwarves happened right yeah
7:40
you could work that in absolutely because it's all it's related right then you can look you can then work up to the battle that actually took place with
7:47
Sully uh and his men and then finish it off with redoing
7:52
uh the quest of the King's Tribute line right like you can bookend that so that it it ends with what we know but fills
8:00
in in like sort of like experience a little bit of the blanks beforehand which I think that would that's a really
8:06
good pick Matt i'm I'm really impressed with that choice i just like the name Sully Blue to be completely honest
8:12
that's one of the reasons I've always remembered it sully Belaloo you know it's just it's just it's just a nice
8:18
solid dwarf sounding name it is it is a very dwarven name yeah uh for all that I
8:24
I kind of sometimes I bag on on Wow Dwarves mostly just because of the facial features that they had at the
8:29
time because you know 2004 dwarves male dwarves were just not good that was just
8:36
No that was a very bad thing only only female yeah yeah female dwarves were fine
8:42
gnomes had a kind of manic look to them like they they just didn't have time to control their facial hair or head hair
8:49
or anything but dwarves looked straight up like like a like their face was like
8:55
a pickaxe like it was just all coming forward to the nose and it was just like
9:00
yikes i I'll play a girl dwarf they look okay they they don't look this bad but
9:06
in terms of lore I mean dwarves haven't really gotten as much as other races have and when they do it's usually Titan
9:13
related it's not dwarf related yeah i mean there's been a little bit of it but it would be nice to see a little more
9:19
deeper dive into that my my initial pick is a little bit grander than that uh and
9:24
it's something that I've always wanted to see since I think we first started playing WoW especially with uh finding
9:31
out about the elemental lords is I'd like to see the creation and imprisonment of the elemental elementals
9:38
in the elemental plains and everything that led up to it like I'd like to see
9:44
the time before the old gods got here like showing the elementals like at war
9:50
or doing what they were doing before the old gods got here then having them see them being subjugated and used uh as
9:58
generals or as uh essentially controlled chess pieces by the old gods uh and then
10:05
also getting into some of the things that we thought was happening because uh theane didn't really seem to be involved
10:13
in a lot of the elemental goofiness that was happening at the time and like I
10:19
think we I I know I called this out but I think you also noticed it as well the times that we go back to Nyatha and
10:26
experience like Nyalatha under siege Therazane's forces are never there like
10:32
it's it's always Ragnaros and Al and and Alakir it's never like her and uh
10:41
Neptilon is often missing as well like to see what they were up to during that time frame like if they were scheming or
10:47
what they were doing or maybe they were going at it in a different location at a different place at a different time and
10:53
then see them get imprisoned inside of the elemental plains as are created because it it's it also shows us like
11:01
what happened between Odin and Helia and what that was like and the interactions there it gives us insight into Odin it
11:07
gives us insight into the Black Empire and it gives us insight into the elementals in a time before they were
11:14
just you know they were basically in their natural element and that's something that I always was very curious
11:20
if we would ever get more of or see especially with all the stuff we've done and we hear about it we see books about
11:26
it but I think that would be really cool to to sort of experience as a lore walking event i don't disagree you just
11:33
made me think of something I can't believe I haven't thought of until just now go for it two of the most powerful
11:38
of the Titan Watchers are Odin and Roden mhm roden means master Rah mhm does Odin
11:48
mean master O and I'm not that's not a joke is is this literally the title that
11:54
they had and and if so Roden is that that's a title that we we don't know
11:59
where he got it we don't know if he was called Master Ra by the you know the
12:04
Titan Watchers when when he was running around with them when he and Helya worked together and that's the other
12:09
thing why did he and Helia worked together why did Raden help Helya with what why didn't Odin at the time they
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were supposedly doing what they were been ordered to do why Why wasn't Odin doing it why was Roden was Helia's
12:25
relationship with Odin as close as we're led to believe like we're told that you know in in the myths of the of the Reich
12:33
uh that Helio was his daughter yeah but in so much like I think years long we
12:38
you and I have come to the conclusion like that maybe in so much as her genesis was because of him not so much
12:45
but was it yeah or maybe it wasn't yeah that's the thing because she was working with Roden to help create the elemental
12:52
plains did Odin poach her did when when Roden basically got caught up in what
12:58
happened to him did did Hoden say "Okay you work for me now do this." Did he do that because he wanted access to her
13:05
abilities while while she was working with Rodin obviously she's unavailable to go breach the Shadowlands for him
13:11
right mhm that makes me wonder how is it that the the Mou could overwhelm
13:20
and entrap Roden i mean the Thunder King supposedly did that but the Thunder King did that how how could he beat Roden
13:29
especially before he was empowered by Roden's heart how did he do it what if
13:34
somebody wanted to get Roden out of the way yeah or somebody gifted a little
13:40
maybe uh something of a little Titan nature to him to get him out of the way right like seems like something Odin
13:46
would do doesn't it like well plus we know at the time that they had just been
13:51
hit by like the Titan essences and that was so dis that was so distressing
13:57
for Roden that he pulled the the the essence of Amanul out of himself now did
14:03
Aanthal's essence go to both of them they were the chosen of Amanl if it if Amanl's essence went to o to to Roden
14:10
and we know it did because he removed it from himself and it's what empowered uh the veil of eternal summer or eternal
14:17
blossom sorry it's what empowered that right mhm we know that so did he get all
14:23
of it or did like he pulled it out put it there it empowered the veil it changed the waters of the veil much like
14:30
you know the the blood of Azeroth changed the waters of the well but that doesn't mean it obviously didn't stay
14:36
there because we see Amanthul's essence when we're doing um uh I want to say
14:41
Anourus yeah right yeah mhm uh when we're doing that in Legion we see the
14:46
essence of all the various Titan watchers except uh I want to say Aloon but that's not the right one it's she's
14:52
on Aloon dress uh she's the one that had the relationship with the Aon thank you
14:59
we see everyone but Aonarr is is been caught and is being tortured by the forces of the Legion but that means that
15:05
if their if their essences were fragmented like this by by being distributed did did Odin do something
15:14
here like did he maybe give his portion of it like cuz I remember when when when
15:19
uh Braon eats Ro you know the Thunder King's heart which means he when he eats
15:26
like what Roden stole got stolen by the Thunder King like he eats the essence
15:32
that that the Thunder King stole from Roden he immediately starts doing the whole Final Titan thing which we know is
15:38
coming so what you're talking about all the stuff you just mentioned could tie into that last expansion
15:45
and we could find out finally who knew what was happening like how much did
15:51
Mimmeron understand of what happened to him we know that part of the essence of uh Noran went into Mimmeron is that why
16:00
Meimmer's a little bit like that a little bit a little bit off his rocker yeah there's there's a lot of
16:06
possibilities i think that leads into what I would like to see which is related to what you want to see uh
16:12
namely I I want to see the Titans coming to Azeroth yeah so I I want to see that
16:18
too but I I think one of the the one of the reasons I also picked the the thing that I picked is like you're saying it
16:25
ties in and touches so many things and has the ability to lead in multiple
16:31
different directions so it kind of gives them an opportunity to sort of drop whatever they want story-wise going into
16:38
either direction now you're saying that you want to see the Titans coming to Azeroth i think we're going to have that
16:44
coming in the next expansion but what about going backwards is that something you'd be interested in seeing well what
16:49
do you mean by backwards seeing like Azeroth before the Titans and as they and as the Titans discover Azeroth like
16:56
you know maybe in time of the Black Empire or maybe something like that is that something that you'd be interested in seeing here's something I'm
17:02
interested in the trolls are under the imp were under the impression that they were not Titan created right
17:09
but then when we get to the uh the tomb of Sargeras which was originally the
17:15
temple of Aloon yep yeah when we get in there there's all these night elf
17:21
statues and cosmic things and we know where the night elves come from mhm we know that the night elves are are the
17:28
result of something involving the well of eternity and and dark trolls and we
17:34
think that in um the war within or possibly it's its sequel midnight we're
17:40
going to get more going to get more information about who these harak are and that's who I want to know about
17:46
that's what I want to go back to show me who these people are and where they came from if you're not going to give us a
17:52
quest doing so normally do it through you know lore walking show me the like
17:58
show me the origin of life on Azeroth does it is it from the Titans or does it
18:04
predate them obviously some things on Azeroth that are alive were originally Titan creations but it feels like before
18:10
the coming of the old gods there would have been living things on Azeroth because the planet was literally so full
18:17
of life that the planet could sustain a Titan and the Titan was taking all that energy into itself which is what caused
18:23
the elements to start fighting were there living things involved was it kind of a similar situation to what was
18:30
happening on Dranor except that nobody could hit that critical mass the way that they did on that planet so the
18:36
plants couldn't become a worldthreatening presence because they just couldn't get enough energy i just want to know what
18:43
we're dealing with here what is the origin of this planet what is the origin of the stuff on it and you you could do
18:50
that anyway you want there's like hundreds of quests you could do for that but that's one of the things I'm thinking about in terms of going back
18:56
i'd love to see something as simple as seeing like the the there's an old legend do you remember in Stranglethorn
19:02
when you find the tablets where the trolls talk about the coming of the Titans yeah oh yeah yeah yeah and I mean
19:08
a lot of newer players may not have ever seen them because you know people don't always level through those zones anymore
19:13
but I remember the first time I read them and you get the tight like the impression of this troll literally
19:19
watching as these things come down from space and just start impacting the
19:25
planet and I start thinking about like if that's like anywhere like what
19:30
actually happened you once talked to me about this and I'm gonna like throw this one to you to talk about but what if the
19:36
Black Empire was actually livable what if it wasn't all tentacles and monster eyes and people's getting like monster
19:43
mutated monster mountains wandering around what if you could be a citizen of the Black Empire like what if there were
19:50
like people like trolls and like I don't know Seth maybe of the snake people
19:55
maybe there were things there already living there yeah and the and it also
20:01
would potentially answers or have the potential to answer some other questions that we have posed ourselves right which
20:06
is what constitutes a Titan construct is it only things that were born through
20:14
whatever crafting of stone and metal and and raw material and given life or does
20:20
it include things like the trolls because as you pointed out if they weren't somewhere in the realm of Titan
20:27
power or Titan construct why were trolls able to become uh night elves when they
20:32
were exposed to the Well of Eternity uh or you know the other trolls and the
20:38
Vulper and the the Sethrack and all these others that we don't necessarily
20:44
have a onetoone like Seth we have an idea of where they came from because we've seen some Titan constructs that
20:49
look like them now but what if it wasn't the constructs that came first like you
20:55
pointed this out i think when we did our Sethrack stuff specifically it's what if
21:02
those were crafted after them because they saw how adaptable they were and well and that's something that got me
21:08
thinking about a lot of other stuff like what if all Titan constructs were rooted in other things they'd seen or other
21:16
things that existed before well Titans aren't very inventive no but I want to go a step further like like because
21:22
these were born on Azeroth potentially do they count as Titan constructs because they were born on Azeroth right
21:30
like they were constructed from the material essentially the living material in spirit in than around Azeroth so do
21:39
they constitute a Titan construct or a construct of something slightly different than but equivalent to a Titan
21:45
right whatever Azeroth is but that's that's the thing that leads me to another question do did like are another
21:52
thing that you just since you asked that question you immediately made me think of this question which is related to it did all titans as they went through
21:59
their process of essentially awakening and becoming fully functional entities did they have life growing on them yeah
22:06
right like we because they were planets yeah and we've asked that we've asked are there Titan constructs yeah are
22:12
there Titan constructs that are essentially the original like the form of the life that once lived on them did
22:18
they because we know that's the other weird thing we know that they have this their little constructs have spirits in
22:23
them mhm living things you can a viol can die mhm and its spirit goes into the
22:32
Shadowlands um which titans aren't themselves aren't supposed to be able to do but their
22:39
creations can well and that's the thing like we've we've learned what is now and that changed the game right like we we
22:46
once we learned what that was and that it existed it started changing how we looked at everything and we didn't even
22:52
realize that that started happening as early as Mist of Pandaria going back to
22:57
your Mou because what are they playing with what are they using to animate they're using what they call and while
23:04
it has a physical form there it has a physical form in the Shadowlands we're
23:10
able to interact with it pe food is made of it in there we consume it drink is
23:15
made of it every living thing is made of it we physically interact with in Shadowlands and we were physically
23:21
interacting with in the Mou like raids in the Mou cities like Yeah they they
23:29
those even have those weird robots that can pull it up and throw it at you yeah and those things are considered to
23:35
be alive they're not just machines they're considered to be living things yeah and and taking it a step further we
23:41
can take that idea and do a whole lore walking thing about the origin of the Titans and it doesn't have to
23:47
necessarily be complete but that's a the question you pose about did all these
23:53
titans have living things born on them is a solid question and one that's never
23:59
been answered a is Azeroth unique in that regard now we don't think so we
24:05
think that there is you know uh precedent for other living beings to be
24:10
on these Titan worlds but we don't know right it's been so long since they were
24:17
born in ordering the cosmos that Yeah like there's no records of it there's no
24:23
information on it that we have but I bet you the Nathar know about it i bet you
24:28
that there are other beings or entities in the universe that do and it would be interesting to see the lore walking be
24:35
like the life of a Titan like the ordering of the planet or the forming of
24:40
the planet around the nent soul of of that of the Titan uh the life and and
24:46
the planet of them like as they justate and become what they are uh to uh them
24:52
being born or if they even are actually born that way because the other option
24:58
is everything we know about them is a bloody lie right yeah and and here's the thing if we assume for a moment that
25:04
what we've been told is basically true like that there's their their souls come from other parts of the you know the
25:10
cosmos the cosmology and are tossed into the material world to form these titans
25:16
we've always kind of assumed that they were coming from the plane of order but that's just cuz Amenthul likes order
25:22
yeah and I post all I posted that was BS a long time ago yeah but here's the
25:27
thing what if you know Amenthul is from the plane of order sure and and the plane of life and yeah and but then
25:35
again you go here where was Agramar from plane of fire what was Norgan from where was you know
25:43
and this comes ultimately to this to this final question what if Argus could
25:48
go back to the Shadowlands because he was the death titan and that's why you could do that that's
25:54
why he could go there and I mean look at it look at it look at the motifs of of of that fight and that encounter and of
26:01
Argus it was that of a reaper it was that of the iconography of death right like everything about it everything that
26:08
you learned about it was sort of that that bridge which is why Argus had to be
26:13
used as the the the engine that it was and potentially the why it was the only
26:19
one that could go to the Shadowlands because it was always made to go to the Shadowlands because it came from the Shadowlands and that therefore leads
26:25
into another I think even more interesting question first part of it which one is Sargeras
26:31
second one what if the the void Titan was supposed to happen
26:38
maybe it would have just been another Titan maybe it would have been if it had been created as it had in as it looked
26:45
like it was going to be before Sargeras killed it it would have just risen up been a Titan gone to the Pantheon and
26:52
said "Hey I represent void um I we need to talk about how we can balance things
26:57
better because you guys are all out of control and things aren't balanced well and not only that but I mean it goes
27:02
back to what we talked about with like the first ones and the idea that this grand experiment was to in order to keep
27:08
existence going and we've posited multiple times that you need to have
27:14
void because without void you don't have infinite potential you you it sort of is
27:20
necessary because your choices made out of that infinite potential are what allow life to keep happening and it may
27:28
have been part of their design all along to have a void titan and that planet that Sargeras found and did not
27:35
understand uh because it was being consumed by void may have been intentional of the old
27:41
ones you're absolutely right and here's a question to keep about when you're thinking about that one maybe Sargeras
27:47
went wrong because he was light and that's why he's weak to Fel and
27:54
became a Fel Titan because Fel doesn't obey the light the light void rules fell
28:00
breaks them in fact Fel breaks rules well also I want to pose that you may be on to something there and I've had this
28:07
thought as well parallel to you if he is a Titan of an of of a representation that is the Titan of Light it would make
28:14
sense he's rigid in his belief and he's a fanatic he is absolutely fanatical
28:20
which we see over and over again with the light i mean there are people in the light who are absolutely great people
28:26
and we we you know love those those wacky paladins and such but at the same
28:31
time there's like what happened to like one of the the greatest of the Naru you
28:36
know she went full boore i won't listen to anything anyone tells me i'm going to
28:42
keep doing this even though the person I'm doing it toon you know Zera wouldn't
28:47
listen to him even when he's like no I refuse this I will not have it she was forcing it on him because the the good
28:55
thing with the light is that it's relevatory the bad thing about the light is that it is uncompromising and very
29:01
much we see that with Zera and the Naru if Sargeras was originally a light titan
29:07
who went in he went cuckoo for void puffs he's basically possibly still a light titan under it um we have a human
29:15
example of this zeliac Zeliac died he became an undead and yet
29:21
he could still command the light well and I think this this this whole conversation fits in really nicely with
29:27
the lore walking in general but also with what we're doing in game and have been for like the last essentially two
29:33
expansions well three expansions really because between Shadowlands Dragon
29:39
Flight and now the War Within what have we been doing we've been recovering actual Titan information actual records
29:47
of like their keepers and what they knew about them and and things like that and we're starting to piece things together
29:53
that we never knew before or only knew what we were told from inaccurate accounts this is prime territory for the
30:00
lore walkers to go sticking their nose in there and find out what's what and then use their magic to extract the
30:07
truth right which I think then leads Yeah if you're going to I think this leads into my next one go for it after
30:14
this because it would be tier tears tier's hand um the the original Kingdom
30:24
of Lorderon and what all that is connected to mhm
30:29
because that's like we we've we've talked a lot about the curse of flesh and this this is one I think really you could bounce a lot of stuff off of you
30:35
could do go in a lot of directions with it we could get to see finally how the curse of flesh was created what it is
30:43
how it is how the old gods weaponized it whether or not it was an original thing that they came up with or the titans
30:50
always had it because the imp the implication of the discs of Norgan that we find inir
30:58
sorry in Ulon which remember those are the uncorrupted ones the disc of Noran
31:03
you find in Alderman unlike anything you get out of old are the original
31:08
uncorrupted ones that tier stole uh along with uh not Algolon uh the two
31:16
that are there Irononia and I keep wanting to say Algolon but I know it's not Algolon i hate this my brain is
31:22
doing this it's okay i can't remember either continue on but Ironia tier and
31:27
the guy who I should be remembering but can't um the three of them grabbed the
31:32
discs and boogied and tears buddy um the one that got himself cursed and
31:37
eventually died if you're a paladin he's a whole part of the I want to say Cronis um that dude stood and fought to to hold
31:45
off Tier's um not Tier uh hold off Loin's forces so that Tier and his friends could bug out they got to what
31:52
is now the the region around Aldon but first before they got to Alderman they
31:59
landed in what's now Lorderon there's a the tier the the the tomb of Tier is actually up in the mountains of Lordon
32:06
just like literally you can look down and see Lordon city uh you can see Terrace Fall Glades and it's called
32:12
Terrace Fall Glades because that's right where Tier and Tier fell that's where he died tier dies in Teras Fall Glades
32:19
that's why it's Tier's fall tier's fall um but when he did he obviously took out
32:25
two of the Cathrai we've talked before about this we've talked about the Cthrai and how they might not be you know as
32:31
easily understood they might be like if they were willing to work with Zalat which we see that they were to a degree
32:37
yeah we there's something about them we we pointed this out when we talked in the last episode um so I guess mild
32:45
spoilerish not really but you never really see the
32:51
Cthraxi in service of the old gods like they're kind of there but they're kind
32:58
of not and every time we've seen them it seems like a deeper perversion like
33:04
Faceless ones all day long those those definitely seem like old Gotti but the
33:10
Cathrai seem way more void align at least in their presentation it's weird
33:16
because like the first time we see a Cathrai it's Visax and and we don't know what he's doing there no he doesn't go
33:23
ahead i was going to say but he's just he's outside of Yagsaran's prison yeah and is he is he when we get there we
33:30
have to get past him to get in if he was working for Yagarin why would he stop us
33:37
from going in there and finally freeing Yagsaron like Yagsaran wants you know
33:44
what I mean like that that's a it's a strange thing you all of this we were just talking about just made something hit me in the skull and I'm going to say
33:50
it because I think it could be really interesting what if Zalat was supposed to be the Titan in the Void Titan what
33:58
if Zalat is that entity that spark that soul that got flung into our cosmos not
34:05
to become a disease or a parasite the way that the other ones seem to be but
34:10
to have be become a Titan or something like a Titan maybe the fact that even
34:16
the word Titan is just misleading because it sounds like they're all the same thing when each one of them could
34:22
be completely different yeah like Titan is like a classification at this point as far as I'm concerned yeah but like
34:29
you raise an interesting point right yeah like what if and more importantly it would explain like if the void lords
34:37
were not all of one mind which of course they're not you know they literally see a thousand truths they they see it
34:44
doesn't take all one of them decided this isn't working let's just rot the whole thing down and they threw they
34:51
made the old gods they threw in little bits of essence to become old gods but
34:57
another one was like "No we got to stick to the plan man." And then the other one's like "What plan?" Like "There is
35:03
no plan there's only like there's only a possibility potentiality." And they just started arguing and that's why this is
35:10
all happening yeah i mean like there's beings that are totally opposed to all
35:16
this [ __ ] and maybe that's why the Naru exist to be to balance Light's
35:21
flaws with Void's flaws and create an entity that can kind of bridge them
35:27
maybe that's what the V Naru were for in the beginning yeah and I mean there it's entirely possible that we'll we'll get
35:33
to the end of Zotas story and find out that she's not she is a villain but not the villain we thought she was but yeah
35:40
like they could they could start exploring that a little bit and see like again and just taking this back to lore
35:48
walking and I don't want to go too tinfoily with it although I'm sure folks at home are eating it up but it's it's
35:54
one of those things where like they could fill in some of those blanks
35:59
moving cuz this is the ones we have now is moving into midnight the ones we may get in the future will probably be uh in
36:06
between points during midnight depending on how lore walking is received and potentially from midnight to the final
36:13
Titan and these are opportunities to fill in those gaps i think they have a lot of opportunity to leverage
36:21
specifically around the Titanic entities plans but also like maybe a little bit
36:26
of the first ones or things like that because we talked about this last week as well we we know that the brokers
36:35
exchange information and we know or at least you and I suspect that they are
36:41
related to the etherealss uh not just because of what we see in those in that
36:47
one particular uh thing but we've been saying this for a while they're too similar of entities to not be related in
36:55
their function and their societal like views but they've their behavior their
37:00
their their behavior and everything else they've like we go back to the grimoire they correct us and it's the brokers
37:08
that have a lot of information they can go anywhere they're freely capable of traveling between realities through the
37:14
twisting nether into the different elemental realms apparently because why
37:20
why not like they they literally showed us they could do that during Shadowlands it's not out of the question for the
37:26
lore walkers to go talking to them because the lore walkers have something that the brokers value higher than
37:33
anything we've traded them and it's information because there's probably stuff that the lore walkers know and
37:39
have recorded that the brokers don't know yet and the brokers probably have stuff that the Lore Walkers don't know
37:46
yet either and I can absolutely see Lur Walker Cho going up to one and going
37:51
"Yeah you know what i've got five stories for you you give me five stories
37:57
I give you five stories how's that sound like I could see something like that happening we'll give you four you give
38:04
us six yeah but that's how it starts like they they get in they sit down and then there's like the last time we see
38:09
it before they actually get the stories is just they start they start bargaining yeah like how do I know your stories are
38:16
worth it and maybe Joe's like "All right I'll give you a free one." And then we
38:21
go five and five and he's like "Well you know show us the free one then." And then you you could actually have a lore
38:29
walking episode about the lore walkers which we're going to get into that at a future date folks
38:37
but I mean there's so many other ripe stories and ripe opportunities for this too right yeah and there's also stories
38:43
that are not like this big cosmic thing happened because you dragged me into it but we could do and I'm not blaming you
38:50
i'm just saying that that one of us as soon as one of us mentioned it we were spiraling off well I' I I've got one
38:55
more for you before we move away from cosmic stuff well just let me say this before and then you'll let you do yours
39:02
you could also do small stuff that doesn't really have anything to do with that they don't have to tie in in that
39:08
way mhm uh with that go ahead do your next one oh I was going to say we the
39:14
the big one that's been staring us in the face for generations at this point for uh over 20 years of game time the
39:21
Emerald Dream right like Oh yeah okay there's so much about the Emerald Dream we do not understand we know we've been
39:28
told so many contradictory things about it and we've been shown so many contradictory things about it and we've
39:34
we've posited so many different possibilities for it like the fact that it connects to the Shadowlands it
39:40
connects directly to Ardaneld but also connects to Azeroth why is that a thing
39:45
why is it the waiting room from the Shadowlands to Azeroth uh where was it
39:51
made why was it made we were initially told that it was the backup for for Azeroth in case anything ever went wrong
39:57
but we know that that's not necessarily the case we saw the reorigination device we used the reorigination device we have
40:04
records of the use of the reorigination device and it wasn't anything to do with the the Emerald Dream we've literally
40:10
gone into the dream or sections of it multiple times we've seen different
40:17
aspects of it and each one seems as vast and as different as the Shadowlands
40:22
itself i mean going back to Oraborus uh Orabus and the thousands and millions of
40:29
doors that are just hanging above it like the fact that the Emerald Dream has
40:34
probably countless portals that lead other places is probably not a mistake
40:40
or not an oversight why was it made who made it is it naturally occurring is it
40:46
something that just is it the life version of the Shadowlands is it
40:52
protoolife like I would love to know more about it and more about like the
40:58
first time the titans or somebody discovered it uh the first time like it was like understood maybe what it was or
41:06
maybe the fact that nobody understands what it was i would love to see something about that and I'd love to see
41:12
something explore how all the different folks that interact with it or have interacted with it maybe not necessarily
41:20
just on Azeroth because don't forget other characters in Ardanel made reference to it and not just because
41:27
they were they are in Ardanel how they revere it how they view it how they how it played a part in sort of like their
41:34
cultural versioning right i would love to see that i'd love to see the gaps
41:39
filled in there because it's it's so ripe for it you know um when we first
41:44
discovered the roots of druidism for the cult we discovered that they were getting their their druid tradition from
41:51
a race that seemed very similar to the the freight very similar and we know why now a little bit a little bit but one of
42:00
the things that occurred when you see them as druids is that they are much more attuned to death mhm than the
42:06
druids we are used to who seem much more attuned to light and life mostly life
42:12
really um although they do have you know two they have the spell wrath and the spell you know the moonfire one so they
42:19
do have spells that are more like based in just power i just keep coming back to this idea that like when we went after
42:27
Jana she was trapped in some kind of weird nether realm that was accessible
42:32
through that that tree that Dr had in uh
42:37
in Cultteras in Drusvar yep and that tree
42:43
we see trees used over and over again as you know ways to draw power to and from
42:48
the Emerald Dream and we saw Ardan Wield connected to the Emerald Dream and I
42:54
keep coming back to this idea that it's possible that the that Ardan Weld isn't
43:00
just connected to the Emerald Dream that is a section of it it is a part of the
43:06
Emerald Dream mhm it is also a part of the Shadowlands because it is a realm
43:12
based around how life feeds new life you know maybe and how death death is the
43:18
process death is the road by which living things give up their
43:25
given to new living things and in some cases the same living things go into that cycle like a like a soul a self can
43:33
go into that cycle through Ardan wield because Ardan wield is right there it's the fixture point between Shadowlands
43:41
and whatever you want to call the Emerald Dream and go ahead i can't no I
43:46
was going to say you made me think of something you slammed something into my brain too which is Go this sounds a
43:52
whole lot like we're describing the seasons of life of a tree right like all these different aspects of it like
43:58
they're they're the autumn or the the winter the the spring and the summer of life and all these sections are sort of
44:04
like little pockets of it that sounds a whole lot like they could do something with Gene right like Gineir is like the
44:10
giant cosmic tree the first tree and we've often viewed Guinea as an entity
44:16
or uh you know like a being that can have children and like the world trees are crafted from her and so forth but if
44:23
the mother tree like we keep seeing the cosmology depicted as an orury with all
44:29
the like you know sections and it's like built around this ring and what if you then instead you use Ghir as the as the
44:38
model as Udrus right yeah and you think about like the you know fell is blight
44:45
something on the tree that is growing in wild chaotic and possibly dangerous ways
44:51
uh then there's light which is just you know the trees reach to it they want light life which is what trees represent
44:58
it's what they draw from but death is always in the roots right you're always going to be drawing up death from the
45:04
roots because that's how they live in trees the life of the tree comes from the death at the at the base and not
45:11
only that but trees are are are living entities that have like regardless of your scientific belief they've
45:18
established that trees have some form of like environmental wherewithal and if a
45:25
section of the tree let's say no longer is able to receive the optimal amount of
45:30
light or becomes too blighted some trees will stop delivering nutrients to that
45:37
section of it and let it atrophy and fall off they'll essentially cut it off
45:42
kill that portion of themselves to then take that energy and push it somewhere else which is it happens in nature why
45:50
not would Gineir be capable of doing the same thing right and and you think about
45:55
like every aspect we've seen is related to what trees do like the whole the deal
46:02
about you know arcane power well how many times have we seen arcane power in
46:07
in World of Warcraft related to plant life just look at Battle or not Battle for Azeroth look at uh Legion when what
46:13
happened with the World Wars of Dranor well I was going to say look at look at look at the tree being used to cure the arcane sickness mhm but look at also
46:22
again going back to war warlords of Dranor where we we see the plant entities like it's the breakers and the
46:29
I can never remember what the plant ones are called but the rock ones are the breakers but the plant ones they
46:35
literally step forward into Azeroth because they represent that push but
46:40
they do it they create arcane means to travel they're like harvesting the thema
46:46
as a direct power and that's what arcane magic seems to be rawa pushing on things
46:52
other forms of magic work easier because you don't have to deal with the
46:57
inexurable power of of wants to do specific things and if
47:03
you're telling it I want you to make lightning it's like I no we're we're doing the life thing all right fine
47:09
lightning i I just feel like there's a lot the fact that trees create shadow canopies that kill other trees
47:16
you know trees by their nature by existing Ganier doesn't want any other
47:23
time ways it doesn't want you to split off from the one true timeline even
47:28
though it needs the all that possibility to grow from a tiny little sapling to a giant tree it doesn't want competitors
47:36
mhm and that's you know so you've got a void you've got a shadow land but you've
47:41
also got literal void and I just I just I really like the idea of instead of
47:47
using the ory you use a big tree for this and now it suddenly makes sense what Gana actually is gene is the tree
47:55
from which all other trees come ultimately Ger Gineir is the tree of
48:02
which all realms are born right like it yeah it is the literally the mother tree
48:07
yeah and we maybe we find out that gene was cultivated by the first ones that
48:12
this is part of their experiment because if you look like going back to Shadowlands and going back to the separ
48:18
of the first ones and everything we did there nature and I'm going to air quote nature is present there how many
48:25
largecale trees do we see on islands and floating around like they are not it's
48:31
not a foreign concept to them i'm not just talking like Arnold i'm talking like the proto trees we see in the
48:38
workshop of the first ones yeah zerith Zerith Mortis zerith Mortise but you just made me think of something else
48:44
namely that all the Zeriths might be connected via that tree but more importantly you keep wondering where the
48:50
first ones went what if they are the tree yes they made the tree out of themselves yeah exactly or or they fed
48:58
themselves to the tree like Odin nine nights but theirs is eternal they they
49:03
gave themselves for knowledge they gave themselves to the trees creation well they gave themselves to the defense of
49:09
the of all reality essentially right it's like because Yeah they're trying to stop whatever that that devouring stuff
49:16
is yeah and we've we've talked about that before and it would make sense and when the the first world tree on Azeroth
49:24
the one before all the other ones the one we find out about cuz it eventually got destroyed
49:30
and its roots seem to be the only thing left that was created to protect Azeroth
49:35
mhm that was a shield just like Gana might be a shield for all existence you
49:41
know and that's Yeah there's a lot to this um but I feel like I really do want
49:46
to move us past all the cosmic stuff for a second go back because there's there's smaller stuff that we've really never
49:52
seen and I go for it what happened between the first and second war yeah
50:00
yeah there's a big time gap there or even during the first war there's stuff that we just kind of get told and we
50:05
don't know anything about it like oh yeah at this point Lothar got caught by the by the orcs uh in the dead mines huh
50:14
and and the daughter of Ren Blackhand was there with this ogre huh
50:20
like you tell us this is happening we see that we see the end of it when our
50:25
character goes in why did Lothar go there again mhm like what's And that's just one of many many things you could
50:31
do how did like what's who is Anduin Lothar like is he related to um King uh
50:41
Lane Ren's wife like is is that his sister we it's certainly the case in the
50:46
movie it's implied in other places if that's the case I mean it makes sense
50:52
but but say it you know Lothar was was um Varian's uncle that's why he took him
50:59
like he did the the little boy that he saved wasn't just the king of Stormwind he was his nephew which makes him and
51:09
thus his son Anduin Ren part of the
51:15
Array bloodline which we know they are anyway because we know that every every
51:21
one of the seven kingdoms is descended from people who left the the nation the
51:26
League of Ara oh you just made me think of two other things too good lord go for it
51:31
i mean there's one that's staring us right in the face the founding of the Iraqi Empire yeah which really could
51:38
would kind of like both the original one and then the new one
51:44
you know you could book it we know we know we know bits and pieces of the original one for example if you played
51:49
on Arms Warrior you got your hands on Strocar strumcar was the blade of the Arathy
51:56
Empire can you imagine if you went to the new Arathy Empire which they just call the Arathy Empire and you pulled
52:02
Strocar out of your butt yeah cuz I mean with it being the Blade there is zero
52:07
way that they would not recognize it right it's so memorable that trolls to
52:13
this day you go to any troll dungeon and they run away from it and we know that
52:18
WoW and Well I was going to say we know that WoW has done that in the past before with the original Ashbringer mhm like when you would go into the Scarlet
52:25
Monastery they nothing would attack you because like "Oh no you're the you're the Ashbrer cool i'm going to bow down
52:30
here we're we're we're cool we're not aggro we're good we're good." Yeah but also like when you when you see Strocar
52:39
like you take it there's multiple dwarven dungeons I've taken it to the dwarfs literally just run away in terror yeah and I felt bad a couple of times
52:48
because like like I I was playing a torrent at one point and and the uh I I
52:55
I I'm trying to paraphrase this because it was it was brooded in a comic book TV
53:00
show that we were watching a friend of mine and I were were in a in a fiveman and when I pulled that thing out because
53:06
we were just clearing our way through it for for at you know [ __ ] and bleeps uh
53:11
we were clearing our way through it at one point I pulled it out and everyone started running away and my
53:17
friend who was playing a troll a shaman looks at me and goes he goes "I'm deeply hurt."
53:23
Because you know cuz it's the real troll killing blade it's the original one that troll Kalar is just an it's just a it's
53:31
a homage to it's like Troll Kalar is the song tribute by by uh Tenacious D for
53:38
Stromcar this is just a tribute so yeah I you could do that you could I'd love
53:44
to see like Well you could do an entire thing about that very foundation though
53:50
like why did they leave were they one of the groups that was going out to create other kingdoms the way the seven
53:56
kingdoms were were they called specifically was there something that influenced them did like did before he
54:03
died did Ar you know Artor himself you know did he call them together and say
54:09
for you I have a special mission you will take my bloodline because that's Lothar Lothar is the bloodline of the
54:16
first um you know king of of of Strogar and they you'll take my bloodline with
54:23
you and then that oh that's what the Stormwind one was too mhm what if the
54:29
Stormwind group wasn't meant to go to Stormwind
54:34
they got maybe they got like their like some of the ships got blown off course or something so some of the the
54:40
followers of Lothar were with them and some were with the other group and that's why why there's lineage of the
54:46
family of Lothar there in Stormwind yeah but what if they were never meant to go there like why would you want to settle
54:53
right next to more trolls you just had that whole fight with trolls why would you voluntarily go down closer to the
55:00
other trolls unless you just really wanted to fight more of them so yeah there's there's a lot to that you could
55:06
do that would be really cool and you can start doing things like speaking of like the human empires too you could go back
55:11
through and do some clarification and clean up of stuff involving Varian Ren and the time beforehand like you're
55:18
talking about uh stuff that we hear about but we never see and we just
55:23
talked about this I think on the main show podcast uh either last week or the
55:29
week before but like you could show you know the birth of of Anduin you can show
55:36
that life you could show uh going back further the the the death of Tiffen in
55:42
game finally you could see Tiffen in game finally you could see the death of Tiffen uh you could see the
55:47
ramifications of that the change of who Vyian was but more importantly you get to see who Vyian was before that
55:53
happened which we've never seen we've never we don't know what type of person he was who he was we know that the only
56:00
time we saw we saw one thing in game one thing we saw the dude in the sewers on
56:06
Vikas Island with the mustache yeah and and quite frankly I would love it if we
56:13
remade the mustache mustache uh variant like it's canon that before he got split
56:20
up he walked around with that mustache this looks good why is everybody complaining and and you you get to see
56:27
his best friend at the time Bolvar For going VVen Varian you'll notice I have a
56:33
full beard that you just can't just are you are you Thomas Magnum because if
56:38
you're not Thomas Magnum variant you cannot do that you cannot rock the stash like that i think I think I look very
56:44
good but you could you could expand it even further too like now you got me thinking cuz like now you could do
56:50
everything with B uh with Bolvar you could do his story line and fill that in you could fill in with Cali is he
56:56
related yeah is he related to that other for dragon yeah lady felt the one that
57:01
helped them during the the Oh and you could tie it back to what we were just talking about because you could have it
57:07
when Anduin Lothar is leading the people out uh Lady Forragon is helping is she
57:14
like related to Bolvar is he her kid or her brother or something and who was she
57:21
she's a big deal palin wise she's a huge deal we never see her no we years later
57:28
yeah and then you got that whole idea about like what you know we know what what
57:33
they all did after the war and during the war but what was going on like we we
57:40
only have the vaguest sense of what was going on in terms of how these various nations related before the war mhm we
57:47
know that existed and it had like mages going doing mage stuff for like a thousand years what was you know what
57:54
was it like to just live in mhm like did did people go from country to country
58:00
were people going from Lordon down to Stormwind we obviously Lordon was the
58:05
largest most powerful and most wealthy nation of the seven kingdoms why it
58:11
didn't have any like Stromgard did you know didn't have the original line of of
58:18
Arthur anymore they they had the Trollbains who were there who were you know Arthur's second in command why did
58:25
they take power there and why did the line of of of Arator leave
58:31
you know that's another thing we don't have no idea why a lot of this stuff happened hell we don't even have the
58:36
troll war which I think would be really good to see like what you know what was the deal why did the trolls hate the
58:43
elves and humans so much like was it just that they felt they were getting pushed out was it that they thought they
58:50
were inferior or was there an outside influence pushing in to do it like Yeah
58:56
we're not even like they we know that they had the weird shadow magic stuff right yeah we we have not even remotely
59:02
talked about and like that's another one that would be a really great aspect to maybe explore and we're we're running
59:08
short on time so I want to I I don't want to go much further than this but like shadow hunters in general have
59:15
barely been touched upon and in fact they never have really been touched upon in game outside of like Vulgun vaguely
59:22
describing what a shadow hunter is and does which has been half like half the
59:28
time it's a game warden for Loa half the time it's a spiritual adviser to its people maybe it's all of those things
59:34
maybe it's none of those things and maybe it's an aspect of a longforgotten shadow magic tradition that you know no
59:41
longer exists elsewhere and maybe there's a reason for that like there we could explore that like there's so much
59:47
about the trolls we don't know yet like there there's so much you can do with
59:53
time walking to fill in these gaps without having to devote an entire
59:58
expansion to them and that's one of the things that I really really like i was
1:00:04
really impressed with the implementation on the PTR and the whole concept of it and it's again something I've been
1:00:10
asking for for decades at this point like at least 10 years like it's it's
1:00:18
just so ripe with potential you can use it to fill in so much and tell bits of
1:00:26
story that have never been told before and I think that's really really cool i really like that potential now the
1:00:33
initial request was that we would pick five stories that we want to see lore walking i think we gave you like 30 um
1:00:40
so we're sorry i'm not i feel like I feel like the person who said this of
1:00:46
all people would know what we're like well that I say you're welcome uh but
1:00:53
that's going to do it for us folks again Blizzard Watch is made possible due to the generous contributions at
1:00:58
patreon.com/bizzardwatch your continued support means that this podcast site and community is able to
1:01:03
thrive and grow blizzard watch supporters enjoy exclusive benefit like early access to our podcast a better
1:01:08
chance of having your question answered on our podcast or the Q&A adds free site experience again if you have questions
1:01:13
send those in podcastwatch.com specify the show that is for in the subject line and any special
1:01:19
pronunciation of your name uh you can also hit us up on Discord we have the Q and podcast question channel open for
1:01:24
everybody then we have the patron Q and podcast questions channel which is a special place set aside for our Patreon
1:01:29
subscribers as a way of saying thank you for helping us keep the lights on and then you can also send us messages
1:01:35
directly on Patreon i do want to thank our listeners i have a list of a ton of
1:01:41
different topics that we will probably be breaking out into when it's relevant
1:01:46
many of these are off topic uh topics so we haven't done a lot of those in a
1:01:52
while so expect probably a grouping of them soon uh so thank you for everybody
1:01:58
who's sending those in we really appreciate it uh and continue to send those in tell us what you want us to
1:02:03
talk about you want us to tinfoil hat about something for an hour and a half let us know
1:02:10
yeah no please don't please don't do that no please don't tell us to do that
1:02:15
no uh but with that folks we'll see you next week
1:02:22
[Music]
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