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Join us as we discuss the lore questions tied to the official Warcraft novel, “Stormrage”. We delve into Malfurion’s vision of Azeroth and the corrupting influence of Xavius as well as speculation about Azeroth’s sentience, its selective amnesia due to the Emerald Nightmare attacks, and Malfurion’s connection to it all.
Bonus: No one repeatedly yelling TYRAAAAAAANDUH! Maybe.
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[Music]
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hello and welcome to lore wild Round Table free form discussion about lauring your favorite media I'm your host Joe
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prz one of several L Focus folks from blizzard watch and I've got my stupendous co-host with me today Matt
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Rossy uh today we are going to be answering your questions our wonderful
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listeners uh if you have questions for this or any of our podcast or even the queue be sure to send those in for the
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podcast you can send those in to podcast blizzardwatch outcom specify the show that it is for in the subject line and
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any special pronunciation of your name uh if you are sending those on Discord
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we have the Q and podcast questions channel uh where you can put those uh and if you are a patreon subscriber you
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have access to the patron q and podcast questions Channel where we tend to look there first as a way of saying thank you
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for helping us keep the lights on the same rules apply and we ask that you again give us any special pronunciation
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of your name and tell us what show your question is for uh we're just going to
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go ahead and get right into it as long as everybody is ready here I mean it's just you and me if we're not ready then
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I don't know what we're gonna do all right well this one comes from uh
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our friend uh V Victor uh I was going to try to pronounce the vixel link and I
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think that might be correct but you gave us both names so there you go you get both uh this is a series of questions
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and I'm going to go ahead and read the whole thing out cuz it's a three-parter and then we'll go back in individually and try to answer those out so hello
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again I just reread the book storm rage for the first time in a few years and I've got a couple of questions tied to
1:43
the book one at one point in the book malurian saw everywhere in the world at the same time through the newly purified
1:50
tasel do you think this included places that were obscured from the rest of the world at that time like panderia or the
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dragon ises and should we be asking maluan more about the rest of Azeroth
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maybe it was too much information at once and he didn't memorize it part two in the book we find out that the tree
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that was zavius was originally lost lost into the ocean with the sundering but was somehow saved and moved presumably
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by nooth to the zone that is known as Azara today where in Azara do you think
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that tree stood and for how long was was xavius in Azara the zavius tree was
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mentioned to have fed upon all life in its vicinity leaving nothing but dead soil around it but could this have been
2:31
a smaller effect over a larger area and explain the reason for the seemingly Eternal autumn in Azara and then
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question three the attack on the emerald nightmare in this book seems to have been one of the most absolute closest
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times for azoth to have nearly fallen and the last waking people in the of the world seemingly seemingly only being a
2:51
few hours if not less from losing it's one of the few times that all of Azeroth was attacked at the same time but we
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almost never hear about those events in the game despite it being so such a big deal so many people died and Azeroth was
3:02
almost lost is it because it happened in a book and they don't want to confuse people who didn't read it uh why was the
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second attack on the emerald nightmare during Legion on a much smaller scale and so much weaker was it because zavius
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didn't have access to the drael this time but he was using shadil that time instead was shril not as powerful as
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terril and how did zavius surviv the events in the book The Way It Was Written it really felt like xavius was
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gone and the and only the nightmare power of nooth was sealed in the rift of Al lastly if zavius the villain who has
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cheated death and come back the most amount of times in the warcraft Universe question mark uh first diing in his
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magical battle with malfurion then coming back as the first Sader then turning into a tree by malfurion then
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during storm rage seemingly defeated and killed him for a third time only to once again come back in Legion and be killed a fourth time can we truly trust that he
3:53
is gone we just can't seem to get rid of him so let's start with the first one
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what did malfurion see when he saw the whole world uh the short answer is we
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have no idea um yeah I mean i' have a really simple metaphor for you if you want to think about it a certain way um
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the astronauts who went to the moon saw the whole earth doesn't mean you could ask him questions about stuff on the
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ground like um there were clouds and stuff uh just because he could see the
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entire life force of Azeroth doesn't mean that he was getting detailed topography you know it it means means
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that for a moment he understood Azeroth as a living system by interacting with
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it essentially its dreams which is what the emerald dream and The Druids have always been doing Druids going into the
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emerald dream have always been interacting with Azeroth through its dreams uh so that's where you know he'd
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have a lot of details to tell you about azeroth's Dreamscape is that necessarily goingon to help you when you go to the
4:54
dragon Naes probably not you know but he'd know that there was life there um
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but then again would he know what that life was like is he stopping to actually look
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at every portion of Azeroth just because you can see all of something doesn't mean you're stopping to look at every little bit of it um I can see all of my
5:13
office but I don't look at all of it all the time uh so that's my take on it uh
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but as Joe pointed out this is just a take there's nothing in that passage that says exactly how this is working um
5:26
you know is is he like Superman in orbit getting you know to use his super to like we don't we don't no idea no idea
5:32
what exactly is happening yeah and I think that is kind of the I don't want to say the most troubling part of it but
5:39
like it's I believe it's intentionally vague and I believe it's intentionally vague because any chance you give a
5:47
character essentially unlimited knowledge you kind of ruin your story in
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a lot of ways yeah here's a really easy example um that my wife and I were talking about because at one point she
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was like reading somewhere about how many Enterprises there are and she's like oh the Enterprise D yet it would have been the fifth one because the
6:06
first one wasn't called you know the Enterprise a the Enterprise a was the second one and then I was like technically the Enterprise a was the
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third one but at the time they made the show they didn't know about Star Trek Enterprise it was not a show that had
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come out yet they hadn't designed it yet so they s they slightly should have it should have been the e but that's the
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kind of thing that if you give Mal furian perfect knowledge of the world now every time we find new place you
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have to explain why malfurion didn't mention it you know like why didn't malurian tell us about this because Mal
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furian wasn't really you know if we make it so malfurion knows everything then why the heck doesn't he tell us these
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things you know it it gets kind of fraught so yeah I think Joe's totally right on that one yeah and we also it
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was never fully described how he really saw everything right because like Matt
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said it looking at the world from the view of like an astronaut you you're not
6:59
going to be able to see like it's not like looking at a map you're not going to have like lines can you see like where this particular country is and
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maybe if you have knowledge you can see like the rough outline of it but it was through the lens of TLD drael what does
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teldrassil view the world as yeah what is this giant tree care about yeah does
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it is it just showing a network of roots across the world which we kind of already knew existed is it just showing
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land masses is it showing is it like a heat signature showing where pockets of Life are yeah is it showing you like you
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know here look at these glowy bits these are all the forests you know we really don't know yeah and and I don't know
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that we ever will know because I think it's better that we don't um and again
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maluan the he's had a lot of time to to do a lot of stuff um and he was really
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great as being the uh the foil as far or not foil the uh the princess in the castle for uh Tonda in Legion and I
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thought that was particularly great um but ultimately even if he did I don't
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know that he would share and I think that's the other aspect of it cuz look at everything else that's happened to like the world look at everything that's
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happened to uh you know the the night elves and look what's happening currently you have zotth who's running
8:15
around uh who can basically be anybody why would he share why would he why
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would he voluntarily give information that might be uh potentially problematic
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and cause issues if that information got out to the rest of the world world and yeah and there's also the simple fact
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that we don't really spend a lot of time with malurian we don't you know it's like sure we're important people and
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we've worked with him before but we don't really know him he he's not a buddy I don't you know we don't go to
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his house and just chat about cosmology he's not gonna come to my house and tell me all about you know this thing that's
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happening we're not that close so I think to a certain degree malurian is
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not going to just randomly spread de information I mean do you think that malfurion goes to the average night elf
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and tells them by the way Ragnar Rose had legs pass it on everybody should know about maluri and about trag's tiny
9:10
weird legs like I I don't think he you know he these are things that he might talk about with hamu but he's not going
9:16
to tell everybody about it I for one thing he doesn't even know everybody but another thing is like what do do you
9:22
need to know about this particular ancient god or this particular Mountain stream being important to the Natural
9:29
balance what's important to a druid or an arch Druid isn't necessarily what's important to a bunch of adventurers you
9:35
know that's the other thing you know we care about like well dude I'm going to go into this place full of bad stuff so
9:41
if you know anything about the place full of bad stuff that'd be great if you could just you know tell me yes they're all very bad anything else well you know
9:48
how to kill bad things what do you want you want me to give you a breakdown of all their like try setting them on fire
9:53
I guess you seem to love doing that okay got your maluri and you don't feel like you've got anything to contribute that I
9:59
mean you know you know how to kill things you know so that's all I'm saying I'm just saying that malurian might not
10:04
necessarily not only he might not only have not have the knowledge but what he does know about say let's use an example
10:11
of of avalor what avaloran which we know is out there somewhere right I mean for all we know we're there but we don't
10:17
know but somewhere out there there's a place called avaloran we might be standing on it or it might be the next
10:23
place we go it might be where the uh the alar not the alter yeah the that's what they're call right the the empire the
10:29
ones that they're in Hall ofast oh yeah the yeah yeah they might be the ones
10:36
over there whatever but but just what does malfurion actually know about the place even if he does know about it like
10:42
would he be more interested oh hey there's a bunch of FL worshipping fire using paladins over there or would he
10:49
care about the the wildlife there you know what I mean like there's and and would we care about that like if he starts telling us there's this amazing
10:56
species of Lykan that only grows in the North side of these trees and it's got
11:01
you know really good properties for curing you know shingle rot oh okay does
11:07
that have anything to do with like the giant Darkness coming to swallow the world absolutely not why would I know
11:12
about that I mean I mean I'm as concerned about it as you are but I'm not like an expert in darkness coming to
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consume the World Fair Point okay thank you malarian you know you know what I mean it's like to a certain degree you
11:24
it's the same thing why doesn't Tonda tell us about whatever aloon knows because aloon doesn't tell to everything
11:30
yeah you know and and again the the the thing that you put in there about the fact that maybe he didn't memorize it I
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mean yeah probably there's there's a certain extent to that maybe um you know what we were even missing like like you
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said earlier when he saw it Through The Eyes of T drael it's possible that t drael didn't tell Mal furian anything
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he'd care about like after the initial thing like he's telling him okay this big thing's happening the emerald dream
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is in in disarray the nightmare is coming here's everything I know and also by the way since I'm a giant tree
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there's a lot of really good places nice shade over here and he's like tell drael I love you please just keep it down to
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how I save the world from zavius just too much information right now okay yeah fair enough fair enough you don't want
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to die you know so it's quite possible that Muran is just as frustrated as we are because the tree would just talking
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about Roots you know and he he loves the tree and he wants the tree to be happy but you know that's that's what happens
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yeah uh let's move on to the I think the second one here I think um so talking
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about xavius and uh basically I guess why he was there and the that was the
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tree being in aara and it having the effect of sapping life that could mean any number of things it could be
12:47
something tied to how it's Eternal Autumn it I ask you a question though dude go ahead remember that Mage Tower
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the one that comes up again in the in the uh the artifact quests and the Mage Tower quests there's there's like a mage
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hangout in asara that's trying to keep some horrible dark like force
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contained I think that's where he was I think he was like really underneath that building I think that they were trying
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to keep him contained that's always been my theory yeah I mean that's that's entirely possible uh I mean it's
13:18
actually probably relatively plausible um but I'm just looking at the going
13:23
back and looking at the original uh zone right like yeah look at the Zone it's you really can't say you know he's
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draining the life from this place and that's why it's Eternal Autumn maybe it's just Eternal Autumn because that's the way it is but it is also close to an
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area that is very Barren right even though it is a coastal area and if I remember correctly and I haven't gone
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into classic and and and taking a look at this uh but the original Azara Zone
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was not exactly the most Lush no no it goes down to like very quickly when
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you're in the zone there's there's like trees and stuff around the top like the areas that are higher up higher elevation and obviously if you head
14:03
towards hayel there's more trees as you go up there but there's a lot of like
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beach which is Beach you know it's sandy or rocky and full of salt water and the
14:14
areas between it um before they started shaping into a giant horde symbol the areas around it were all pretty desolate
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and that's I mean one of the things that I think you talked about a long time ago was all the Demon Hunter Quest stuff M
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like the guy who you know basically is sending you on quests to that that end up taking you to the Badlands again but
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yeah there's a lot of blighted and blasted areas in the original Azara Zone and I think also like noting that is is
14:42
important that it we also don't know what level of Life draining it was doing
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it zavis is not dumb he is maniacal but he is not unintelligent and if there was
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a Consciousness in involved in the tree which it seems like there was uh if you follow the story of it that
15:04
Consciousness may have made a concerted effort to take tiny sips and bite its time and not cause a massive draining of
15:11
the life essence of the the immediate surrounding area because in going back to what Matt said like with the Mage
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Tower you attract attention and when you attract attention somebody's going to go
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looking and ifig do is you know yeah last thing you want to do is like let malfurion know while he's taking his nap
15:29
that you're doing this because if he finds out you're there he we saw the last time he fought zavius you know he
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basically said I am willing to blow up this planet to stop you and that you know that's that's not good for savus as
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evil plans if if malfurion drops yet another magical nuke on him yeah it's it
15:48
is very interesting to see what he was willing and or not willing to do and uh
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yeah so I don't know and and I think that maybe the book took a little bit of
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Liberty at this time too because this is also during a time where there was a little bit of a disconnect right um this
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is before the time of uh basically writers being handed a outline uh and we
16:13
know that that happened because uh Richard Knack actually caused that to happen um and so a lot of them were
16:21
Taking Liberties and and embellishing stuff and some of it doesn't make sense
16:26
for in-game we've talked about this before too uh so going back through the ashara zone and this is the other thing
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to keep in mind too zones in the book are larger than represented in the game
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and they have to be because of how the map works and how everything is structured that's just how it is right
16:45
you have to imagine that the zone ajara is a large Zone in the game it's larger when you think about it in context of if
16:51
you were in the game world right uh that's why trekking across like the
16:57
Barons is a huge deal and why only certain people were able to do it
17:02
effectively it's why the Toren being PL Striders was a huge deal yeah I think it something like the entirety of what we
17:09
have in World of Warcraft at the time of just the original game was roughly equivalent to the size of Manhattan
17:15
Island like in terms of like your character as a if you use your character as a roughly 1.8 meter tall human their
17:25
rough the rough size of the entire traversable area like the island of Manhattan and because that's just how
17:32
much rendering you could do like if you try to render something bigger it becomes exponentially more computer
17:39
expensive and keep in mind the game came out in 2004 yeah you know computers were
17:44
like 20 years older than they are now uh and there was stuff that they can do now
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that they could not do then there stuff that got developed yeah to do stuff like this because it couldn't be done back
17:57
then and that hampered them um there's a reason that like back then they made they made it so a lot of trees and stuff
18:03
were basically just matte paintings they were like two dimensional because you never you didn't go to see them yourself
18:09
you you just flew through them or whatever on a on a griffin yeah I was gonna say one of the one of the interesting things and it was really
18:15
cool to see them represented in three dimensions back in the day but one of the things that I thought was really interesting speaking of that and I think
18:22
not to completely Sidetrack on a technical aspect but go through some of the old zones with some of the older
18:28
trees that having been updated and take a look at how those trees like go to duskwood and just take a look at how the
18:34
trees are and yes they have been upgraded during the time of cataclysm but they weren't completely removed of
18:39
their charm now imagine them flatter and imagine it being like that old school
18:45
almost like ID software like hexen uh Duke Nukem sort of two two d3d
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pseudo 3D 2.5d whatever you want to call it yeah not even not even 2.5d but was where the facing of it the flat facing
19:01
followed you so that you never saw the side of it but the trees were like that's actually still in in presence if
19:08
you go play WoW and open a portal and then move around the portal like spin your character the portal will always
19:15
turn so that you see the full portal yes exactly as it was when you pass summon summoning portals when you're at the
19:20
stone do the same thing yeah so there's elements of that but that that all that to come back to the world is incredibly
19:28
large and so so it also might be a thing that we never got fully represented in
19:33
the game world because it didn't make sense to show it right it may not have
19:38
been something like you have a a tree a like a stick of a tree and like this
19:44
blacken Crater of an area like okay we have a ton of spaces in the world that look like that already we have the Fel
19:50
we had felwood at the time that did that we had uh the Blasted Lands it had plenty of areas like that you could you
19:57
could literally walk through dur and find places like that so it may just
20:02
never have been represented in the game and it may just been something that until it was necessary to pull it into
20:09
uh the world uh as far as storytelling goes that we never would have seen and I mean look at there's they've
20:15
done that with lots of other things that we've like actually had come into the game like the the northern part of the
20:21
Barons had a bunch of stuff added uh when cataclysm came out they just put in new things yeah and they were just this
20:29
place was here the whole time you know okay I never got here but that's just the limitations of what they could do
20:35
versus what they did do and it affects the storytelling in a way so this isn't entirely not a lore watch topic because
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what they can talk to you about in game is always carefully affected by what
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they have the ability to tell you what they can show you um as their ability to show you more things gets better and you
20:54
can see that looking at how M Pandaria went back to those zones for the uh I forget what they were called like they
21:00
were like Elemental Invasion type events MH uh when you went back to those zones and saw new things and you see that
21:06
again like even as as recently as battle for Azeroth when you went back to like
21:12
multiple zones and suddenly there all this stuff happening in them that wasn't happening before and there's new places
21:17
to go that you didn't go before it's just one of the things that does happen because yeah the the book the book is
21:24
infinite canvas it's it's just imagination you don't have to worry about like how can we render this the
21:31
rendering engine is a human brain and the programming is the words in the book they never have to worry about you know
21:37
they can tell you anything they can say oh and then of course there's the fire falls and Asar and You' be like what
21:42
where the heck are those I've never been to those I've been all over Asar where's the firefalls well they haven't had to tell you about them until now so they
21:48
haven't bothered um so yeah there there's a lot of I want to say like there's a lot of twitchiness to book
21:55
versus game adaptation type stuff yeah now there's another aspect of this question that I think we can we can
22:01
touch on a little bit lorewise which is zavius being trapped in a tree and how he was lost into the ocean with the
22:08
suing and how he was saved there's a couple different ways that it can be and I actually don't think it was nooth uh
22:15
and the reason I don't think it was nzo is because nzo worked through agents not
22:22
directly at least at this time because that's what azaro was and that's what some of the other elements that of of
22:30
things under his servitude were doing Nazo being and I'm going to air quote this the weakest of them um I think
22:38
bided his time and laid as low as possible until the events that happened during battle for Azeroth which was that
22:45
opportune moment and what we help helped set into motion I think before that uh
22:51
nth was just biting his time trying to figure out how to get his agents to move
22:56
uh and communicate with them and get them to do things like get into a position where they could break his bonds because that was the ultimate goal
23:03
for him in this particular case though we know that while zavius was a tree he
23:10
had the ability to influence things outside of that yeah I mean the war of
23:16
the SAT wouldn't even have happened without him yeah even though he wasn't capable of like actually leading it he
23:21
still was the one essentially telling the SATs what to do the fact that there were so many SATs is because of him
23:29
his influence his his effect on the world and and think about it because like who who grafted him to T drael it
23:36
was fandel staghelm who was already being manipulated by the old gods right and who fought he was one of the leading
23:42
fighters in the war of the sder yeah and and he even started his split with
23:48
malfurion started at that time because malfurion was you know finally decided
23:53
all right I'll try the pack form because we gotta fight these SATs and these won't go away and one of the interesting
23:58
sorry go ahead no I was just going to say that that's how we even got wargan and that's why wargan had that whole
24:03
thing about the war with you know against the emerald Lords because the emerald Lords were the Lords of the the sder they were like going around doing
24:11
evil stuff and so yeah there's a lot of stuff where s where savus could have had
24:17
all sorts of Stooges that would have come and got him and and we know for a fact and this is going with another book
24:22
because we have to go into wolfart for this one uh in wolfart it was actually quoted uh that xavius was manipulating
24:32
fandel stag Helm and making him his puppet and that's why he got basically
24:39
uh own Branch got in into the fledgling till drael but he was able to affect stag Helm directly you know and again he
24:48
was a druid he was tied to the dreams he was tied to the the emerald dream xavius
24:53
being also sort of in that that exclusive Club of being able to touch the dream and the nightmare in this
24:59
particular case yeah and he he got in through a back door he got in by essentially being a tree yeah you know
25:05
so he was literally sneaking in through the very thing that they were trying to commune with you know the thing that he
25:10
was turned into by you know a drude who wanted to protect the emerald yeah whatever we we can talk about how this is all malfurion's fault later
25:18
um uh but it's more likely that Nazo didn't have a direct hand in anything
25:23
that happened there and that this was more or less xavius maybe working on behalf of of nooth but it would have
25:30
been the plan all along right and it may have involved ezar it may have involved Azar's agents and it may have involved
25:38
uh them setting things into motion it's really easy to take a a a sapling and
25:43
plant it it's real easy like there's natural phenomenon in the world of young
25:48
trees saplings that get washed away uh with their entire root systems intact uh
25:55
to be deposited elsewhere and then take root and stand themselves up over time and and grow um this is a thing that
26:03
happens it's not outside of the realm of possibilities that zavius figured out how to do that too and get him exactly
26:08
where he needed to be we don't know anything beyond him having contact with
26:16
staghelm and making staghelm do his bidding that's that's really it and I
26:22
don't think zavius was powerful enough to cause Eternal autumn in Azara because
26:29
if he was TLD drael would have been a very different place because if he could have tapped into all that power of a
26:34
world tree directly you you tell me he wouldn't you tell me he wouldn't have taken that opportunity you have direct
26:40
conduit into the emerald dream and you have all of that power yeah I think the biggest problem for zavius in that kind of situation was he was ultimately a
26:48
parasite yeah and parasites can't really there's only so much a parasite can draw
26:53
from its host without hurting the host to the point where it would be noticeable mmhm I don't think that it
26:59
would I think in the case of when he got grafted to T rassel he was trying to do it that was his goal that's the same
27:06
reason that staghelm kept trying to like use moongrass or whatever to keep uh malfurion asleep because if malurian
27:14
woke up and realized that was happening there wasn't much you know zavius one-on-one until he started getting
27:20
power directly from The Nightmare zavius couldn't fight malfurion you know he just for all that
27:26
it's funny to see how zavius treat him in in Legion part of that the fact that zavius is now drawing directly from an
27:32
old God which he wasn't before and that old God isn't like it doesn't like
27:38
zavius it's using him just like zavius uses other people just like he used staghelm so yeah there's a lot there's a
27:45
lot to this but I think in general you can argue zavius certainly had he was
27:50
keeping himself in in the in the game but he wasn't running the game and the idea that he could just do whatever he
27:57
wanted no if he could just do whatever he wanted he would have done it you know he would have done it if he could have done it he just he couldn't or he or he
28:04
would have yeah and now on to the last question which uh pretty dang involved
28:12
um the first attack on the emerald the emerald nightmare in the book uh for storm rage versus what we got later on
28:18
and what the difference was is between the two we I don't know if we actually
28:24
know that the world would have been lost had the emerald nightmare won the first time around or the second time around we
28:30
don't know the impact it would have had we don't know if there was a fail safe involved uh we never let it get that far
28:36
right and saying that the world was maybe a couple hours uh from total total loss is definitely possible but again
28:44
the heroes in the book and us just in general are making assumptions yeah they
28:50
only know what they know we're not the Titans we didn't craft this place right I mean for that matter there are things
28:55
that don't sleep yeah and although they they were even those were getting somewhat affected there are you know
29:02
like there are old ancient Undead that have been around for eons well before
29:07
the scourge well before the you know anything of Sylvanas there's liches that have that outlived the destruction of
29:15
the night elf Empire there are the mogu who you know come from a time where you
29:20
know when the pandaran Empire hadn't even been established yet and they were out there and they don't dream because
29:27
theyve verse engineered the curse of Flesh and they're fully earthlike again they're not dreaming like think about
29:34
the fact that only until fairly recently has any earn been able to dream yeah
29:39
like so is it possible that the world would have been lost yes but it's also
29:45
possible that had things gotten worse other things would have taken note of it
29:50
and then acted just if if for no other reason then it didn't fit their plans um
29:56
I believe that storm rage comes out after Wrath of the Lich King so arthus wasn't going to be doing nothing yep but
30:03
there's certainly a whole bunch of Titan facilities that might have acted um we
30:08
don't know we don't know what any of the Watchers would have done yeah Deathwing himself might have shown up like no no
30:13
no no no no no no no no I mean for for one thing you know he he served n off but he didn't like and he would have
30:20
recognized oh you're not replacing me you're not getting rid of me so this can work no F you uh and for that matter
30:26
ashara we have no idea what ashara was doing during all this we also don't know what she would yeah she absolutely would
30:33
have tried to use it to her Advantage because she always does but how would how does that translate and and we
30:39
talked about this before too right like Azara has her own motive and if anything
30:46
for lack of any other way of putting this out there she wants the rule Azeroth she wants power if Azeroth
30:54
ceases to exist she doesn't get that and so like the motivation of villains here
30:59
would have worked against them in that final hour I think because all villains
31:04
at least most of the ones that we deal with want Power they want to rule they want they want the world or they want
31:11
the Titan and if that's the case and one other entity is going to get close to getting it there there's no way that
31:18
they would let them win yeah andar is a really special case too because she Technically she's working for n off she
31:24
doesn't want to be see yeah we see all through that that it's it's a push and- pull relationship where she she is very
31:31
deliberately testing where his control is and how much it he has and how can
31:36
she get around him and keep in mind she's not just very powerful magician she's extremely
31:42
intelligent uh it it's it's fair to say that ashara is among the the most
31:48
intelligent living things on Azeroth at this time oh yeah easily with with almost the fact that she doesn't throw
31:55
herself face first into conflicts isn't a weakness she would have been sitting back and and looking at what was happening and
32:01
thinking to herself okay first I need to Shield my people so that they don't get affected by this secondly um who's who
32:08
are the Power Players here who who's gonna come out on top if I don't take action okay now what action do I want to
32:15
take to to affect the outcome do I want I don't want to make like say malfurion and tond stronger but I don't want to
32:23
let the world get taken over by this you know this Emerald nightmare thing because that would be giving the off
32:28
what he wants and I definitely don't want that so can I how do I balance this so that nobody wins but me you know and
32:34
that's the thing about asara and other people like her although she's certainly one of the best ones um that that she
32:41
will be whatever she does will be taken within with an eye towards her
32:46
benefit uh so it but at the same time it it certainly looked like a dire moment
32:51
absolutely it did uh you read the book and it's like yeah everything's bad but then again think about how many times
32:57
we've been in that situation you know like the Lich Kings you know run running running Riot over the world and we're
33:03
stuck on top of this ice Crown Citadel and all this stuff's happening and then he just blows this up and it's like okay
33:09
I guess he wins and then he doesn't you know um there there's something to be
33:14
said for Azeroth itself sometimes taking a hand if if nothing else is going the way it wants um I think that that's one
33:21
of those things you could you could imagine happening at that moment would be azer stirring and we know that was
33:28
having bad nightmares at the time and and after that because we've seen them we know that Azeroth was you know
33:34
semiconscious and having horrible nightmares and didn't have a speaker yet so she might lash out like if you ever
33:40
had a baby throw a tantrum because it couldn't get back to sleep or you know even if you're just babysitting you know
33:45
you know oh God make this thing stop screaming at me and Faz started screaming directly at zavius he might
33:52
not be able to keep going you know we we don't know there's possible there are a lot of possibilties
33:58
yeah and going on the other aspect about the difference between the two Wars and the level of weakness of one compared to
34:05
the other or the level of strength I I don't know that it's necessarily because of the trees that zavius was using I
34:12
think if anything it was more to the the focus of xavius the second the second
34:18
time around when we dealt with it when we were going into the emerald dream and and fighting the nightmare that was a
34:25
personal Revenge story that wasn't I'm going to blow up the world that's I'm
34:31
going to ruin everything that malurian loves I'm going to take everything from
34:36
him his teacher his friends his people all of his safety his people's Heritage
34:43
like I'm going to take yera away from him I'm going to take uh the wild Gods
34:48
from him if I can like this was a very targeted very direct very personal War
34:56
it wasn't necessarily just about the emerald dream um and if you notice like
35:01
the nightmare while it was making gains wasn't making as many gains as I think you would expect it
35:07
to the attacks were directed and and focused and targeted um corrupting of
35:14
emerald dragons was very specific uh something we didn't see in the first war
35:20
right so it became more of a I don't want to say a surgical strike because that would give it I think too much
35:25
credit but it was just very specifically targeted and honed in
35:31
making this wasn't this wasn't a battle plan it wasn't uh an attempt at a strategy it was hate hate hate hate hate
35:40
hate hate hate hate you ruin everything for me all the time hate hate yeah the zavius zavius was out to ruin malurian
35:47
which suited the nightmare because it took him off the board and could possibly have taken Toronto off the board but it didn't really care this
35:55
wasn't this was just setting setting dice for the F setting like you know moves for the future and if if
36:03
zavius got everything he wanted great and if zavas failed and lost oh well didn't didn't quite do as much damage as
36:10
I wanted but you know yera is dead uh you know I certainly pulled something off so yeah there there's a lot there's
36:16
a lot of Merit in what you're was saying there well thank you um and as far as
36:22
the number of times that zavius has died and come back and died and come back he's never really like he's died once
36:29
technically twice every other time he's been defeated and sort of transformed um or warped in the same way
36:37
that other entities have been warped in the past yeah the first time sargis turned him into a big furry monster and
36:44
then he had turned into a tree and those aren't deaths man they're just
36:49
annoyances yeah and then the final one with him coming back from a supposed
36:55
death as well he was essentially an entity of the dream he was an entity of The Nightmare which makes sense because
37:00
at one point in time he had all the knowledge and skill of a druid and being
37:06
able to transport yourself or become a piece of the dream is something we've seen that they were able to do at some
37:13
point not just to sleep and project themselves into it but to become a permanent part of it right and also it's
37:20
interesting to think about the fact that you know technically speaking the thing we saw that called itself zavious might
37:26
just be a nightmare of zavius well wasn't it the shade wasn't it the shade
37:31
of zav zavius wasn't it actually zavius it was like the echo of him I mean maybe it was maybe it was his ghost maybe it
37:38
wasn't him at all reminds me of a different it reminds me of different Blizzard game but I'm gonna mention it really fast when akarat
37:46
tells you in in Diablo I you know I don't even know if I'm akarat or if I'm
37:51
just what his followers thought akarat would be like you know maybe it's not xavius maybe xavius is dead it's just
37:57
what the sadder think xavius would be like if he was still around yeah and and I mean going through darkart Thicket if
38:04
I remember correctly the last boss there is the shade of the shade of xavius um
38:10
and the dark heart Thicket is in the nightmare like it it's a a component of
38:15
that and so I think that's really really interesting uh because I'm curious I'm
38:22
going to look this up if you want to talk for a few moments but I mean while he's looking that up I mean it's it's one thing to consider you know he might
38:28
be the what the sder thought xavius would be like it might be straight up malfurion's nightmare that zavius has
38:36
returned despite everything I've done he's back again and this time he's a he's a straightup servant of The
38:41
Nightmare never once stopping to think to himself wait a minute does that mean he's just the nightmare maybe it's not even zavius it's just the nightmare
38:48
wearing xavius's face to F with me and and maybe it was or maybe it wasn't but dark heart Thicket is absolutely
38:54
corrupted by the Nightmare and also it zavius never really had a sense of humor
39:01
in any of his previous appearances the dude was at best coldly malevolent uh
39:07
even as a sadder so seeing him as a cackling you know giddy crazed Maniac
39:14
who who does that whole malurian impression to to truly mess with t some more that's not really xavius's style
39:23
you know zavius was cold and and clinical I mean he was the chief of the
39:28
Highborn answering directly to ashara the only thing he felt was cold
39:34
restrained passion for for asara and everything about her because nobody could resist her including him even
39:40
though he he acted constantly he felt nothing you know the only thing that burned in his heart was a dep was a
39:47
despondent longing for someone he knew he could never have and to go from that and granted he'd been through a lot but
39:54
to go from that to the Joker which is what he does is kind of a jump it's kind
39:59
of a big jump I mean maybe maybe it happened or maybe he's just what other people think zavius was like I don't
40:06
know figure it there's also no he's he so in the raid he's just xavius but
40:11
there's another thing that I think is interesting here um that I don't know why but when you were talking it sort of
40:17
my brain did that thing where it sparked some random connections um so this all
40:22
sort of ties back to the rift of Al right the rift of Al is a deep fissure
40:28
located within the emerald dream supposedly part of the emerald dream uh that The Druids think that the dream
40:34
itself was originated we don't know that for a fact in fact later uh especially
40:42
like the uh shadowlands and learning about ELD and and items like that uh call that into question uh but they were
40:49
it's also believed by The Druids that it bleeds into the twisting Nether and the great beyond um we get there to we go
40:57
there to fight zavius and that's where zavius is entrenched I don't necessarily
41:02
know that we're in the actual Rift of mm or that the rift of Al is what they
41:07
think it is and I'm wondering if xavius's first deal with sargeras who
41:14
has a lot of knowledge about things we don't and that's sort of a theme in this expansion what if when zavius was turned
41:22
into his seder form that was just an avatar and the essence of his being
41:28
was created into what is essentially a pocket Dimension because and and tin
41:33
foil had here and I'm just kind of throwing this out cuz one of the things that is pretty obvious when we go to
41:39
fight zavius the last time is this is his Peak power and as soon as we defeat
41:45
him what happens I mean I seem to recall him going oh no what a world what a
41:50
world and get sucked away you know sort of like dissipates entirely the rift goes away oh that's a good point yeah
41:57
then you have all that you wander around and you see yesera again and but then there's that cave but there's a cave
42:03
with a small Shard that you reach in and take that void Rose from but that's it like the rift collapses around you it's
42:11
not this vast echoing darkness that malarian first saw it's not just
42:16
omnipresent and if it was tied to the emerald dream so intrinsically how did it collaps when zavius did was xavius
42:23
the original root of the rift of all was that a sargeras thing was that a sargeras thing that he learned of from
42:30
his whatever we don't know what teachings he got from the naine is it tied to that or actually now you since
42:38
you've pointed it out since the original attempt from sargeras to get through into Azeroth was to use the portal
42:46
created Over The Well of Eternity right yep and that's the root The Well of Eternity is the root of the destruction
42:53
of of old Azeroth which tore apart ancient calor and thus the rift of Allen
42:59
seemed Central to the emerald dream the the rift of Allen could very well be the scar tissue of saris' attempt to push
43:06
through right could be now if you think about it that way suddenly it makes
43:11
sense that zavius is the is you know considering you know he's he's it looks
43:17
like he's serving an old God and the emerald nightmare to us is an old God but what if it the old gods were just jumping on the back of it like using it
43:24
kind of like you would use a carrier wave to the old gods don't make anything they don't we know that we know for a
43:30
fact that they don't they repurpose things around them but then it makes sense that zavius is still part of
43:37
Legion because he's still serving sargeras maybe he can't he can't in fact
43:44
not serve sargas because maybe zavius has always been dead yeah you know and
43:50
that thing is sargeras and always has been it's like what when he turned him
43:56
into a SAT it's not really zavius anymore it's just an it's just this hollowed out thing the
44:02
only the only caveat I would say to that though is the the Revenge specifically
44:08
targeting a malfurion is a little too oddly specific but that's the whole thing about what's left of zavius right
44:15
if we think about it in terms of what do we get why do we get to the point where he hates malfurion why wouldn't sargeras
44:22
hate malfurion a lot what if it was another failed attempt at the mination magic that they use to try to create the
44:29
Lich King yeah maybe or because we the Lich King's already proven that you can break away from sargeras's control that
44:35
it's an entity that you know with a sufficient willpower because that's what arthus did is able to sort of you know
44:43
take off those shackles here's here's the thing though what if sargeras could break away from sargeras think about
44:50
this for a second zaras makes this zavius thing puts a piece of his own power in it uh twists zavius into this
44:56
nightmarish monster moner sder thing and then he lets him go like he just he leaves him to do whatever he's doing
45:02
while s you know sargis is trying to get through and then over like the course of thousands upon thousands of years which
45:08
to sargeras is not a lot of time zavius in this thing becomes etched in yeah
45:16
like like he carves evolved Consciousness right yeah it carves into the sargeras fragment its own nature and
45:24
we're talking about why why is zavia suddenly ha malurian so much and more importantly why is he suddenly The Joker
45:30
but maybe it's not sudden maybe it's as you're pointing out if if it's you know
45:36
if the thing that dominated zavis originally was that kind of Titan order domination stuff what if the only way he
45:44
could get out of it was to turn himself into somebody else because the magic is
45:49
specific to zavas but if you're not that zavious anymore if you are if everything
45:54
about you is wildly uneven from the person you were when they put this thing on you then you can break it but at the
46:00
cost of you you've turned yourself into a nightmare and who would you know we
46:06
keep calling the the emerald Nightmare and we keep thinking it's naath who who did it but who would as sh who would
46:12
Azeroth be more afraid of who would haunt azeroth's dreams this bug thing or
46:17
the thing that's coming to get her yeah I mean when sargeras comes to Azeroth at
46:23
the end she's terrified cuz he's coming for her her and he's not going to kill
46:28
her he much she'd much rather he kill her he's going to take her use her do to
46:34
her what he did to Argus of course that's her nightmare so yeah I think you're on to something with
46:39
us man I think wow this has been a really good show for you I've been doing practic nothing you're pulling hits out
46:45
left and right listen every now and then uh the what is it the Broken Clock is is
46:50
is right twice a day sometimes I have my seven seconds where my brain lines up no it's this is some Primo work you've done
46:57
this like three times tonight I'm I just but I just I can't I can't just get rid of that thought like and I've been
47:03
thinking about that since this question came in too is that like the rift of Al was this like big ominous thing
47:10
especially if you go back through the books you go through um I believe it is in malurian um when you when he stares
47:18
into it and and contemplates its existence it's referenced a bunch of times when you're doing stuff for the
47:24
emerald dream when you're doing stuff for the Green dragons um not so and interestingly enough not so much in
47:31
Dragon flight I noticed the emerald dragons didn't really talk about that they didn't really talk about the
47:36
nightmare very much either which I thought was very fascinating as well they talk about the dream and the pathway and the assault on that and and
47:43
stuff like that as well but they don't mention the nightmare really and nobody's really talked about it since we
47:49
dealt with it and I'm curious why like is it something where like we've had
47:55
other things to worry about and so just nobody really set to to consider it or is it one of those things where it's
48:01
fading from memory with because it's no longer part of the dream it's not being dreamed anymore it's it it doesn't exist
48:09
anymore the rift having collapsed that pocket Dimension having collapsed oh oh oh you when you forget a dream sometimes
48:17
you forget a dream right after you had it you wake up and I don't know what I just dreamed but I'm really upset it I
48:23
mean that could be what's happening like the world like literally the world is forgetting it because it's it was a
48:29
nightmare and now I'm not having it anymore so yeah that's actually interesting yeah nobody nobody's talked about going back to uh the broken aisles
48:35
and trying to untwist what happened there like we don't hear anything like and I was thinking about that when
48:41
you're in uh bth and you're wandering around and you see people that you fought with during that time frame and
48:47
people from those areas and they're really not talking about it either and I don't know that could just be uh the
48:54
writers and and the the quest makers you know making a statement of you know we've moved past this and it's not
49:00
really relevant anymore um and there's no reason to bring it back up which is entirely possible um but I'm curious if
49:08
it's also intentional if it's something that is leading to us like again like
49:15
that like you said that the whole you wake up from a bad dream you no longer remember the dream you just know something was wrong um or if Azeroth
49:22
even remembers it that's that's actually a really good point because we don't know what aoth remembers and we can't
49:28
even ask Magny anymore which mild spoilers if you haven't done any of the campaign stuff for yeah the war within
49:35
which at this point I I would be wildly surprised if you didn't um but him no
49:41
longer being the speaker and sudden and having fulfilled his purpose now the earn can dream and the earn sort of have
49:48
that connection the new earn have a connection with aoth are they able to tell the difference uh are they able to
49:55
is it part of their they remember the nightmare well the thing is is that these guys were just born essentially
50:01
right yep so I mean they don't know what happened because they weren't here so
50:08
but they might remember it they might be able to remember it for Azeroth if Azeroth remembers
50:13
it which is kind of one of those okay does someone tell them to ask because
50:18
they're not going to necessarily know to ask unless somebody tells them to that there's a lot of I don't know it's it's
50:25
really interesting to think about like all this stuff that we we're not finding out just because nobody who's in a
50:30
position to find out knows that they should be looking for it and it's that kind of what we're seeing with the Earth
50:36
in story with their memory crystals being messed with and their archive being gone yeah how much information do
50:42
they have access to that they don't know they have access to yeah yeah I mean there's a lot there let's look at it
50:48
from a slightly different perspective because when we talk about Azeroth we're essentially talking about a being that
50:53
is in its infancy but is also so transcendently powerful and on a scale
50:59
we don't understand and one of the things that's always been the case here is that we're dealing with an anti that
51:06
it can dream that that has had bad dreams we've seen them we've actually fought them uh we go into when to point
51:12
Magny called us up to northrend to a new like to place that had been discovered fairly recently that was know obviously
51:19
a Titan facility that allowed him to directly interface with Azeroth and specifically its nightmares and we've
51:25
seen them again up in all sorts of of places the emerald dream itself appears
51:30
to have been created to allow azeroth's dreams a place to be um and there's you
51:36
know it's not a universal thing there's not like Emerald dreams everywhere but then again there are because they're
51:42
dreaming beings everywhere so it's sort of like the specific Emerald dream that we go to and see is just one part it's
51:51
it's very similar to the shadowlands the shadowlands have multiple Realms inside them but they're all part of the
51:57
shadowlands there's like the emerald dream and then there's the specific realm that is azeroth's Emerald dream
52:03
and it might they might be of different name well and we know and we know that the emerald dream ties back to at least
52:08
the Arden weld right like we know that for a fact but we don't know if it's the the greater Emerald dream or the
52:14
specific Emerald dream or if both of them do it like the shadowlands we went to might have been the shadowlands for
52:19
Azeroth like we we don't the we at one point we're told that the shadowlands are practically infinite and we only see
52:26
like four four or five of them so and and we know Argus wasn't supposed to be there and that makes me think like why
52:33
why is it so weird that a Titan Spirit went there and why like we've talked
52:39
before about this about we we have this idea that Titans are a specific thing and it's possible that we've that we
52:45
don't understand that the Titans aren't just limited to being Titan like the
52:51
world Soul obviously all these forces are fighting over azeroth's World Soul right like these different things want
52:57
to get in there and do something to it because it's very possible the world souls don't have to be a Titan or at
53:05
least the Titan the way we understand them what was the deal with AAR and aoon
53:11
what is aoon and how could a loon be so important to anr that when AAR is quote
53:16
unquote killed and her spirit like leaves her body it ends up on a planet
53:21
named alundis you know what's the deal I mean have the rough idea that they there
53:28
was a relationship of some sort yes but think about what that means what is aoon we don't know what if aloon is just
53:35
another example of what you could get instead of a Titan what if and what if there are others and there is where I
53:42
start to think about this whole dreaming thing because what's a dream you know in this setting in this context what is a
53:49
dream it's obviously something important it's not just it's not just you know brain waves firing off somewhere the
53:56
emerald dream is what keeps Azeroth alive it's what keeps all that nature
54:02
magic tied up in the emerald Dream It's not tied up in Alex stza or life some
54:07
life world it's tied up in the dream why is that because dreams are possibilities
54:12
it's a whole it's it's a whole other Titan engine essentially it's exactly
54:18
inverse to the void both the dream and the void think everything's possible as
54:24
opposed to the light and the shadow which are both about only one thing is possible Eternal Darkness
54:32
or Eternal Light the fact that the light and the void are fighting is almost because it almost makes sense that
54:37
because the void doesn't want to fight the dream why would it the dream and it basically are just different different
54:45
tunes of the same thing think about it like when you listen to a song and then someone says hey have you heard that
54:50
song played in a minor key and then when you switch to the minor key it sounds really effing weird but it's still the
54:56
same song right you don't immediately go that that's not the same song you just go wow it sounds creepy now that's what
55:02
the void and and the dream are like to each other and that's something I don't think we've ever really thought about
55:07
it's never really been brought up but you know you want potential and possibility that's where it is in those
55:15
two places to the point where when Arden wield is you know when Arden wield is completely regenerated Spirit it gets
55:21
sent back to the dream to come back in in a form and we know that other worlds
55:26
have gods and some of those gods are the same like aoon exists on other planets
55:31
so I think a lot of this ties back into that concept of what is Azeroth dreaming
55:37
for what are the dreams to do what what is the nature of a dreaming entity when
55:43
it is this Cosmic Force why is it dreaming what is it dreaming about how
55:48
do its dreams and its nightmares reflect on reality because that's the thing this
55:53
thing changes reality like if you have control of the world soul of Azeroth
55:59
especially the world soul of Azeroth I think the world soul of Azeroth is a very special Beast compared to all other
56:04
world souls yeah we we know that we know that pretty pretty pretty rock solidly it has it seems to have the potential to
56:10
be anything and it might even have the potential to be every yeah and therefore
56:17
looking at all of the stuff going on with the rift of all and the emerald dream think about that might have been
56:24
not the rift of all might have been you know the it might have been the results of sargeras's attempt to blow through
56:29
the uh the uh Maelstrom and to effectively create the melstrom but that
56:34
in of itself might not have been necessarily just Azeroth being afraid of
56:39
it it might have been Azeroth thinking about it maybe I should do this maybe I should be like this because Azeroth has
56:46
to figure out what it is and it has to do so without any real help and it's
56:51
interesting that we had Magny as the speaker and then Magny gives up being speaker and now she essentially has many
56:57
speakers yep she traded one and and the knowledge that in the knowledge that
57:02
Magny wasn't the first no yeah exactly and more importantly it shows that she
57:07
still had compassion for magnet as small as he was she knew this is unfair to him
57:14
I need to I need to let him go and she does she doesn't let him go because it's
57:19
part of a master plan she lets him go because it's just not you know in a weird sort of way he was like her
57:26
surrogate Granddad you know he comes in and he treats her like a daughter he treats her like a child that he has to
57:32
take care of and she recognizes that on some level this is ridiculous you know she is a Godlike being of enormous power
57:39
and he is a tiny little dwarf who's gotten kind of shiny but at the same time there she's capable of that
57:45
affection she's capable of caring about essentially a bug and you know where do
57:50
you see that where do you get that Mortals because Mortals I you know my wife has got all sorts of creepy crawly
57:57
things in this house that she loves you know the the Azeroth is capable of a love that gods and Immortals and Titans
58:04
don't seem to be capable of even AAR doesn't seem to be able to do it but
58:09
Azeroth can Azeroth loves this strange weird little dwarf guy because he was
58:14
nice to her and he cared about her dreams and he listened and so when she made the choice to spread that out to to
58:22
choose Anan to be The Replacements she's not only doing something that they all want she's doing something he wants and
58:29
letting him go back to just being a dwarf and just being a grandfather to his grandson and just making up for with
58:35
you know with his daughter and the stuff he wants to be doing and that means that she can think about the possibilities in
58:41
a way that should concern us because you know she could choose the wrong thing she could absolutely do the wrong thing
58:47
but she understands that she can she can make choices and that might even be why zotth is so interested in all this stuff
58:53
that she's doing because she wants to make her case hey ath you ever consider just going evil Evil's great here's all the
59:00
benefits you know I mean who knows but I do think it's it's interesting to look at the rift of Al and interesting to
59:06
look at that whole idea this this concept of what exactly was it and why isn't it there now
59:11
yeah well friends I think though that's going to call it for us here uh as
59:17
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59:36
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59:41
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59:46
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59:52
we have the Q and podcast questions Channel which is open to everybody um we also have the patron q and podcast questions channel uh which is a extra
1:00:00
special place where our patrons can ask those same questions and we tend to look there first as a way of saying thank you
1:00:05
for helping us keep the lights on uh but with that folks I do want to thank you for joining us and we'll see you next
1:00:10
week [Music]
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