Up next in 10
This week's Lore Watch Podcast featured three different listener questions, answered by our intrepid hosts Matt and Joe. First, they delved into some pop culture references in WoW, specifically focusing on Final Fantasy (or possibly He-Man). The second question talks Quilboar and the Scourge -- what did the Scourge get out of working with the Quilboar anyway? Finally, we go cosmic with a question about the Titans, and what force the baby Titan Azeroth might control when she grows up.
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0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round table free form discussion about luring your favorite media. I am your host Joe
0:16
Perez, one of several lore focused folks from Blizzard Watch and I've got my stupendous co-host with me today, Matt
0:21
Rossy. How you doing today, Matt? You ever seen like the second Adam's Family movie? I have.
0:26
Yeah. Like that. Adams Family Values. Okay. Yeah, like that one. So like entertaining but not quite
0:33
right. Not as good as the as you know earlier stuff but but kind of better than the
0:38
like later stuff and like any excuse to see Ral Julia in your life you should
0:44
take. Like seriously if you haven't seen Street Fighter just watch it for his for him. Yep. Him alone.
0:50
Yeah. Him. Just just for him. Go find a compilation on YouTube because this is a man who is one of the most brilliant
0:56
actors of his time who realizes I'm I'm doing this because my kids are not going to see anything else I've done for
1:03
years. So, I'm going to give them one movie where they can just see me act. Fair enough. But we're not here to talk
1:10
about Adam's family values. Although, if that's ever something you're interested in hearing about, you know, a movie, but
1:15
I like I like the Adams family movies, but you can let us know. uh instead we're going to be answering some questions from your wonderful listeners
1:22
at home. And if you have questions for us or if you have uh content or something you want us to cover, go ahead
1:27
and send those suggestions in or those questions into podcast blizzardwatch.com. Specify the show that
1:32
it is for in the subject line as well as any special pronunciation of your name.
1:37
Uh if you want to hit us up on Discord, you can do so. We have the Q and Podcast questions channel. It's open for
1:42
everybody. Same rules apply. If you are a Patreon subscriber, as a way of saying thank you. We have the patron Q and podcast question channel set aside. Uh
1:49
we tend to look there first uh for our patrons to make sure you get first billing. It's it's you help us keep the
1:55
lights on. It's the least we could do. Uh and then lastly, if you don't want to use any of those methods, you can send us messages directly on Patreon and we
2:03
will get them. Without further ado, let's crack into these questions. This one comes from Tel. Uh, I was listening
2:09
to an episode recently where you mentioned class order hall sets and then in another episode you mentioned Final Fantasy. So my question is this. Why
2:16
does the mage set look like an the outfit that Vivv wears in Final Fantasy 9? Are there any other Final Fantasy
2:22
references in World of Warcraft? Uh, so I want to I want I got to I got to jump in. I've got to
2:28
jump in. Joe, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have to say this. You heathens, that's Orcco.
2:35
for for those of you that don't understand that is a reference to He-Man and Masters of the Universe where Oko
2:41
Orcco is from originally and Vive is based off of Orcco. So yeah. Um, so to
2:47
answer the immediate question and then expand this out a little bit, uh, yes, there is one other very specific
2:54
reference in World of Warcraft that I know of that is a reference to Final Fantasy 7 in I believe it's Doaron uh,
3:02
next to Aith Primrose, conveniently named uh, is well, Aith, a reference to
3:09
the character from Final Fantasy 7. Next to her is Korad,
3:14
uh, which is essentially a blood elf version of Cloud Strife, also from Final
3:19
Fantasy 7. Uh, yeah, it's it's interesting. Uh, it's also a model that
3:25
uses the death knight blue eyes, but while not actually being a death knight,
3:31
um, because it is a Kieran uh, warrior mage person. uh but it's a
3:39
reference to the clouds makeo and infused blue eyes uh which happened in
3:44
Final Fantasy 7. But broadening that up, there's been a lot of pop culture
3:49
references in World of Warcraft since the very beginning. Um and I'll I'll
3:56
turn it over to Matt if he's got any particular ones that he'd like to to shout out, but like these go all the way
4:02
back. Even like even just Warcraft in general, they've been around. Yeah. Well, I mean, just in general,
4:08
just looking at the art in World of Warcraft, how many Buster Swords have
4:14
they produced at this point? Oh, yeah. I mean, that's just a thing. See, here's the thing. I didn't play Final Fantasy 7
4:21
when it came out. Uh because I was I was playing um Xenogearss. That was my game.
4:28
I didn't I didn't care about Final Fantasy 7. So, it wasn't until I saw Advent's Children that I started to get
4:34
an understanding of the aesthetic of Final Fantasy and the stuff that was in
4:40
WoW from it. Um, one example is just
4:45
everything Sepharoth like the the like h how many different weapons and clothing
4:50
items did they put in for that guy? I I mean, there were something like four ridiculously huge katana type swords.
4:57
Um, the one I really remember because they used it twice, but there's a sword called Typhoon. Um, they used to be
5:04
dropped off of Zurgos. I think it still is when they ever they bring him back for holiday or whatever. There's a new
5:10
version of Typhoon. Typhoon is basically just the Muramasa sword from from Final Fantasy. It's the enormously long
5:17
Nodachi/Katana style thing. Um, and I I had it at the time. I got it back in 2004, 2005. It
5:25
would have been 2005. Mhm. Um, I remember having it on my night elf and I remember it was so
5:32
distinctive at the time that I'd walk through Iron Forge. Uh, by the way guys, back then nobody went to Stormwind. It
5:38
was always Iron Forge. It was always Iron Forge. Yeah, it was that was city everyone went to. It was the most central city, but that's
5:44
a whole other Well, plus I mean, let's be upfront. Um, Iron Forge had an auction house that was
5:50
right next to the mailboxes that was right next the flight point was just over here. It was very convenient.
5:57
Whereas Stormwind, I don't remember if Stormwind even had an auction house right then. It did.
6:02
Uh but it wasn't in any good place. It wasn't It was not too far away from the
6:09
bank and the Flint Point, but nah, it's Iron Forge just had everything. Oh, it was very far away from the flint point, but that's a that's a whole other
6:15
story. Anyway, so um like I remember that in particular. People would specifically ask me about it, like saying, "Isn't
6:22
that the sword from Sepharoth?" And I'd be like, I don't think so, but I don't know. And then later on,
6:28
yeah, master, sorry. Um, when you go back to it and you look at it and go, "Oh, yeah. No, this is totally off of
6:33
that." That's just one of many, but I'm not I'm not really qualified to give you a ton of them, but damn it, that that
6:39
mage suit is Orcco. Yeah. And sorry, I'm sorry. Well, no, you're you're good. I mean,
6:44
and the game is, like I said, it's been no stranger to pop culture references to and and wearing its sort of inspirations
6:49
on its sleeve because let's be honest, the people who made Warcraft to begin with, they were D and D nerds and gaming
6:57
nerds and like you always pay and there was a period of time there was a period of time from about 1997,
7:04
I want to say, uh, to 2007 where Final Fantasy, every time a new Final Fantasy
7:11
came out, it influenced popular culture and to the point where I can't look at
7:18
an airship without thinking that this airship might be a reference to Final Fantasy because how many different kind
7:24
of blimp airships did they do, you know? And the one that really always comes to mind is the one from FF10. Actually, 10
7:30
two, sorry. And if you're like, he's referencing 10 two, you know, sorry, but you know, that's that I am.
7:36
Yeah, nothing wrong with that. Uh, but some other things that you may have not you may not notice unless you actually
7:42
have been playing the game for a while. Uh, and this one like uh just some of the ones that I think are are on the top
7:48
of my head. So, Stormwind and Orgamar Guards, did you know that they wield lightsabers uh on May the 4th every
7:55
year? Uh, which is, you know, the whole the the the that whole holiday reference thing uh with May the 4th be with you.
8:02
But if you go to Stormwind, all the guards are wielding blue lightsabers. If you go to Orgramar, they're wielding red
8:07
lightsabers or Tibu's blazing long sword. Um, they also did this, I think, when the the Force Awakens released in
8:13
2017 or 2015 and then, uh, The Last Jedi in 2017, something like that. Uh,
8:21
there's references to literature. The Titanic comedy, uh, is a a book that you can find with an interesting flavor
8:27
text, uh, which is a reference to the Divine Comedy. Pride and Protodes, which I mean, you should know what that is.
8:33
Uh, the Scales of Wrath, which is a reference to The Grapes of Wrath. Uh, Lord of the Wings. Uh, you should know
8:40
what that one is. Uh, like like stuff like that. And they're always all over the place. Um, no, we're not going to
8:48
talk about the people that they've referenced, but like Among Us is referenced in here. Uh, the Lords of
8:54
Dread mechanic has admitted ourselves as its its icon name. Uh, which is literally the Among Us game. Uh you have
9:02
Nenina uh referenced which is a reference to uh Full Metal Alchemist
9:08
which is in the game as well. Uh there's been the malfunctioning Goliath gauntlet which is a reference to Thanos's
9:13
Infinity Gauntlet. Uh the Axe of Storms which is a reference to the Axe of Angaris
9:20
uh which is kind of interesting. Tons of Lord of the Rings. There's Ringworld references.
9:26
Uh there's a Dark Souls reference um based on Cy. Mhm. And that gigantic sword that Cif, you
9:33
know, if you know the sword, it's the one that Cif has in her teeth. Cif is a big wolf in Final Fantas.
9:41
And uh that sword is essentially the reference for the wind the whirlwind sword that warriors used to get.
9:48
There was even a model of a wolf wielding a sword in the game at one point, too. I don't know if it's still
9:53
there or not. You'd have to check Ptopia, but that was there. Um, movies and television have had tons of
9:59
references over the years. Uh, two gas, two curios, I mean, come on. Or ghast 5.
10:05
Yeah. Uh, good news everyone, uh, from Ice Crown Citadel is, uh, an achievement
10:11
or quest that is a reference to Futurama. Yeah, that's that whole deal is Futurama. I mean, there's like three
10:17
SIDs in WoW. Yep. Which again, if we're going back to Final Fantasy references, there's a there's a a part in um I want to say in
10:25
Shatter City where there's an obvious He-Man and obvious Thundercat, you know,
10:31
um or his cat or his battlecat. Um there's a they're obviously standing
10:36
next to each other like it's they're just right there. It's not even subtle. Um so yeah, this there's a ton of
10:42
references, not just Final Fantasy. Yeah, I was going to say one of my favorites is Kowalskos uh from
10:48
uh Shadowlands. That's a reference to Kowalsski from Madagascar, which I think a lot of people missed and it's just
10:55
absolutely hilarious. And you look back and look at the interaction, it's like, oh yeah. Uh there's a references to
11:01
Aussie Osborne in the game. Um tons of music references, right? You have uh Osborne Black is a reference to uh you
11:09
know, Aussie Osborne. Dragon Force has a quest in the game through the fire and flames. Uh there's an entry for uh
11:17
Snowstorm's journal entry uh inside of the game is a reference to Led Zeppelin's immigrant song. Like all of
11:24
this stuff, WoW is just comprised of all of these references, whether it's
11:30
comics or gaming or movies. Uh there's there's that there's there's a base in
11:35
um I think maybe Blad's Edge that's essentially like you even go there looking for power converters. It's so
11:42
Wow. It's so Star Wars referency. Mhm. The It's like a gnome town. I can't remember the name of it, but you know
11:48
the one I'm talking about. Yep. There's a there's a tree companion named Brute. Br
11:54
o T. Like come on. That's GR. Like they're all over the place. And that's
11:59
part of the joy of World of Warcraft. And while it's not necessarily
12:04
lore specific, it does pay homage to all of the influences that continue to
12:10
influence the game. And it's some people like to claim that they steal ideas from
12:15
other games or they steal ideas from other literature. And Matt and I have talked about this before. WoW is
12:22
essentially just a love letter to it. Anything that you anything that you sit and create, you are going to even
12:27
subconsciously take influence from the stuff that you've consumed. And WoW is no different, right? Like whether it's
12:34
the story structure, it's going to be influenced by the people writing it and what they grew up loving or what they're, you know, are interested in or
12:40
what they've ingested. Uh it's going to be references to like pop culture is not a mistake. There's a reason for that,
12:47
right? Popular culture is popular culture for a reason. Uh, so like having
12:52
references to it and thinking things are fun little bits about that that's not outside of the ordinary. And as you look
12:58
deeper, uh, I mean, I believe there's a list out there probably on one of the the wikis of of some type that have like
13:06
most of them, but I guarantee you it's not all of them. There's going to be tons of little subtle ones or voice
13:13
lines that are are are given that like are references to stuff or pay homage to
13:18
something that you know maybe you don't know or that you it's easy to miss. So
13:25
it take your time and enjoy the ride. Uh and I'm sure there's more Final Fantasy
13:30
references than we've seen and there's probably more than other people have seen. Take your time and go through it.
13:36
And with the recent games over the last few years, I would be very surprised if
13:42
there weren't references that I missed to like Final Fantasy 15 because I
13:47
didn't really play that one and I don't really know the story of it, but we literally just went through Goblin Town
13:53
which involved going around in cars on adventures and it seems like they would absolutely make a reference to that there. If they didn't, I would be very,
13:59
very shocked. But hopefully that answers your question. But I think we're going to move on to the next one here. And
14:05
this one comes from Vixalink. Uh, I was wondering if you could talk about the Quillbbor, partly about their lore in general, but I've got a few questions
14:12
about them. What do they really get out of their deal with the Scourge? And what did the Scourge get from them? What do
14:18
you think is going to happen to the Quillcore when Quillbore when Agaman Agamagon
14:23
Agamagon? Yeah. Eventually returns to Azeroth. And why is he taking so long to do so? He
14:28
must be quite angry at them for what they're doing in his name. Would they become more friendly to the other races under his leadership? His spirit in the
14:35
crawl tells us they do have noble roots, but Chara Charara Razor Flank has misled
14:41
and steered them away from those. How did they get to Cultyus? If they were if they were on that piece of land before
14:48
the Sundering, how did the Brambles get there? I thought the Brambles came from where Agaman fell, which was in the
14:54
Barrens. So, I'll let Matt go first, but we can make some inferences here, I think. First off, um, Agaman, where
15:02
Agaman fell wasn't in the Barrens because the Baronss didn't exist yet. Yep.
15:07
They were He fell on Calumdor, original Calumdor. So the area where Agamagum
15:13
fell, Agamagon, my god, I hard to remember that. Um, the area where Agamagon fell, part of it is now in the
15:20
barrens. Part of it is now on Culturas. And there are actually probably places
15:25
in the Eastern Kingdoms which would be considered part of where he fell. It's
15:31
just that so much other stuff has happened on the Eastern Kingdoms that it's not surprising there's not a ton of Quillbore left there. Um for one thing,
15:38
there used to be this giant swamp that got destroyed when a portal to like
15:44
another world opened up there and blasted it with fell until it turned into a horrible nothing place. Um, and
15:51
the the remains of that swamp is even it's a it's even reduced from what it was. It's called the swamp of sorrows
15:56
now. It used to be the black morass. It used to be like three times the size. Mhm. Um,
16:03
so that's that's part of what's going on there. In terms of why for keep in mind that too that the quilbore are not just
16:09
the tribes like the razor fan. That's one tribe. That's not all of them. There
16:15
are multiple quillbbor tribes. We see that when in Colulteras, there are different tribes. They're not just the
16:21
the the Razer Fan. As in terms of why the Razer Fen made a deal with the Scourge, I think part of it is the fact
16:28
that their god has been gone so long and they want him back. They want him to be
16:33
brought back. They're not that picky about what, you know, at this point. Look at their situation. The Quillbour
16:40
were once a power on Calumdor. Yeah. They fought against the Legion. They fought in the war of the ancients
16:47
and now look at them. What are they now? They are like when they're not being kicked around by the horde um including
16:54
the torin who remember the torin used to be nomads. Then one day they decided oh no we're going to settle down here on
17:01
this land that used to be yours and we're going to keep it. Thank you. Uh, now they had reasons for it, but
17:07
nevertheless, the the quillbore are basically between a rock and another bigger rock made out of orcs. Um, and I
17:15
don't know if you know this about orcs, really, really, really good at fighting. Mhm. like
17:21
um so all the land that used to be considered the Quillboards is either part of the Baronss, it's part of what
17:29
is now Durotar, or it's part of what is, you know, is now the area around uh
17:34
Thunder Bluff. Um so they've they've been pushed out of almost everywhere they used to live. It's not surprising
17:41
that they're desperate enough to make a deal with the Scourge. Who else is there for them to make a deal with? Well, and I think it also like speaks to like
17:47
Charga. Wow, their names are hard to pronounce. Uh yeah, Charga. Charga. It sounds like
17:54
you're crossing something up. Like she's a she's the leader of what is officially the Death's Head tribe,
18:00
right? Like that's the tribe that she's ahead of. One of many tribes. She happens to be one of the most uh you
18:08
know powerful uh of them. Uh, and her power is directly is related to
18:15
her. Yes. Like in a lot of ways she's like the Megtha Grim totem of of Razor of You
18:21
know, you and I are on the same page. I was about to say exactly that. Um, but her power is also she's a
18:27
geommancer, right? And what do we know about the deep places? What do we know about that? their god essentially we I I
18:36
think it's like the death of the tribe lives essentially in the skull of their fallen god, right? Like their
18:43
necromancer adjacent. They just are this way. Um, and it's one of those things
18:48
where it's like, yeah, she wants power and relevancy. And making a deal with
18:53
the scourge makes perfect sense, especially when she was before this, before making a deal with the scourge
19:01
was encouraging her people to essentially attack the living, attack
19:06
the folks around them, to get their blood, and to air quote bring back their
19:12
god. They're desperate for Agamagon to come back. Why he's not back yet, we
19:18
don't know. We don't know. We can infer from Shadowlands though, but we can infer from Shadowlands cuz
19:23
what was happening during all this time that we were not aware of. There was an
19:29
drought. There was an drought starting, right? We definitely kicked other thing, too, is they they even say
19:34
when you go to Shadowlands, they even say that the time passing in the in the living realm and the time in the
19:39
Shadowlands aren't correlative. Yeah. So Agame Agamagon could been in
19:44
the queue to come back, but like it's not like he could jump the line. They didn't have thema to send him back. And
19:52
even now, we have no idea what the current state of things in the Shadowlands. I mean, that's one possibility. We know we we talk to a
19:59
part of him that that part is talking about how, you know, they had noble roots, but how Chara has misled them.
20:06
But keep in mind that that part is the part she's been drawing on. like that
20:11
that's that's a fragment. It's not the god. The god has been waiting to come
20:17
back and we don't know why, but like you know there's definitely possibilities in
20:23
in the Shadowlands anim situation. Yeah. And it's also one of those things where and I don't know if they'll ever bring this back in game. Uh but Agamagon
20:31
is also not just worshiped by the Quillbbor because it is essentially an ancient. It is one of that member of
20:38
family of of deities or deity adjacent beings. Very powerful lowa, however you
20:44
want to look at it. But in the RPG, the the the tabletop book, if you go back,
20:50
there were worshippers from the horde and the alliance, specifically or some
20:55
orc clans as well as some night elves that worship and call out to Agamagon
21:02
hoping for their return because they respect the strength and courage. They remember the tales of old orcs
21:08
relatively new to it, but night elves would absolutely have a memory of what happened during the war of the ancients.
21:14
They would know that the Quillbore fought on their side. They would know that like his loss is massive and that
21:23
what's happening in the world could very much be mitigated by his return. And
21:28
maybe they don't know the full mechanics of that return. They don't understand what it is or how it would come back.
21:34
They know that wild gods can come back. It has happened before. They have watched it happen. They've watched wild
21:40
gods be reborn. And so, yeah, Senarius Sinarius did um his father did. I can never remember his
21:45
father's name. Moren just said it. Um also, it should be pointed out that
21:51
when the War of the Ancients happened, Agamagon was one of the ones who said
21:56
who realized, well, if we don't stop these guys, they're going to destroy the world. So he went directly at them
22:04
knowing he would not make it through it. Not even trying to survive. He was trying to to kill as many demons as he
22:11
could to keep them off of the uh people planning how to end the portal and and stop the invasion. He fought Manoroth
22:18
directly. Yeah. You know this this was not this was a guy who went out there knowing I am
22:24
going to die to save my world. I think part of the reason that he he hasn't come back is part of the same reason
22:32
that um I want to call him Logos, but that's not his name on Azeroth. That's what the orcs call him. Um the wolf guy.
22:40
You just people know who it is. Lagos. The reason that that didn't come by is the same reason they fought the
22:46
fell forces so much that when they died, they were bathed in it. You know, they they were damaged. They were hurting. It
22:54
probably took them a very long time to even get to the point where they could think about coming back. Yeah. And I mean, and that's the other
23:00
thing too, right? Like with the Quillbore being so marginalized and and going back to originally before the
23:06
Sundering, before that war, they were very prolific. They were everywhere. And I think they would have been in sort of
23:13
that same vein as like the Fearborg or uh the uh night elves. and that they
23:21
they they were so spread out over Azeroth. And like afterwards with their god gone, the tribes sundered and
23:29
splintered, new races and new people taking over more territory cuz also
23:34
think about the time of the war of the ancients. Like humans didn't have this land. Uh a lot of this land wasn't
23:40
barren and desert-like before the sunderine. A lot of it was very very
23:45
rich and very vibrant and full of life. There's a whole quest in the barrens about bringing life back to the barrens,
23:51
right? There's a whole set of druids that are doing uh you know that's their entire goal is to revitalize this once
23:59
once lush jungle. This is places where the quillbore lived and thrived and now
24:04
all that's left is these small pockets, these different tribes spread throughout the world. Uh they don't have their god
24:11
to call on. often times they have to compete for resources in the areas in
24:17
which they traditionally settled. And to your point about the blood being what causes uh the vines and like the razor
24:24
for razor form crawl and the the thicket and stuff like that, we don't know that there's a correlation directly from the
24:30
blood and that Yeah, that's just their legend. We've never we've never specifically seen it
24:36
happen. But what it does remind me of is a massive root system bursting through
24:42
the crust of the world. And we know for a fact, especially now with the current
24:48
expansion that we're in, the fact that we're underground, how vast of a network that could actually be. We don't know if
24:55
uh the bore god's blood, I'm sorry, I'm not going to pronounce the name again. Uh we don't know if his blood we don't
25:02
know if it's we don't know if it seeped into the earth and how deep it went. We don't
25:08
know where it was carried. We don't know what happened after the sunderine and how like this is going to sound gruesome
25:14
but we know bits of old god got flung everywhere. Why couldn't that happened to him?
25:19
But plus there was the world tree. Yeah. The one that got destroyed before the one that was created after the sundering
25:26
to give the night elves immortality. There was a previous world tree and we know for a fact that its roots were being used to hold off something.
25:33
Yeah. And what if when Agamagon died, his blood reawakened some part of that
25:38
system? Or, and here's another thing for you, and maybe this is the other side of that coin that I just thought about now, thanks to Matt saying that. What if
25:45
Agamagon's not back because those vines, those thorns are doing what the world
25:51
tree roots were originally going to do and he's pouring all of his energy into
25:56
that instead because again, the noble roots, right? We we talk about that. We
26:01
talk about their noble heritage. That's something that it sounds like he would do that he would use his strength and
26:06
power to try to safeguard the world. We just talked about how he ran at the legion headon. He would not face uh he
26:13
would not shy away from a contest of strength or will at least not in the way that it is described by the quillbore or
26:20
from our interactions with them or the part of him. And we interacted with a part of him right so he very clearly is
26:29
and I'm going to air quote present here. What if that's the reason why he's not back? What if that's the reason why
26:35
these vines and thorns are everywhere? Like the thicket may have been a response originally to keep his people
26:41
safe, knowing that he couldn't do anything directly or wasn't time. And
26:46
maybe bits and pieces of it are are keeping the world safe again because we don't know how far it goes. We don't
26:51
know what it's keeping in. We don't know what's below those areas. We also don't know how far I don't want to say
26:57
corruption has spread but post sundering we actually don't truly know how deep
27:04
that destruction goes in these areas like they may be barren of life how far down does that go what was severed that
27:11
made it that way and is this a response to it is there a possibility that Agamagon is choosing not to be
27:18
resurrected to help us what do you think I mean it certainly seems like it's
27:23
something that might be possible. I mean, for that matter, too, uh it could be something as simple as, you know,
27:29
your point about him extending his energy to protect them. He might simply just be tired.
27:35
Yeah. Like, you know, that war, he died horribly. There's a and the the things
27:40
we've seen like there's a bit in the flashbacks where like in uh Legion where
27:46
we're seeing like in the night when you go into the nightmare raid, we're seeing Mor relive his death. And when we're
27:53
seeing that, when he's reliving his death at the hands of Archamond, we see past him Agamagon fighting like the rest
28:00
of of the fell, you know, the the the horde. I mean, not the horde, the the demons. Legion. Legion.
28:05
Well, I couldn't come up with that word. Um, but so it the Meor only came back
28:10
when they went and got him. Yes. Never came back until someone went and
28:17
got him. And it was his son who helped us do it. So Moruren couldn't come back
28:24
until fairly recently. And when the Quillbbor tried to go and get Agamagon, they used rights that disgusted him. And
28:31
he says so. He's like, "No, no, absolutely not. I'm not coming back for this." Like, it's quite possible that
28:38
they need somebody who isn't doing foul rights that bismerch him to go get him.
28:43
And until they do that, he ain't coming back. I mean, at this point, we know that um Ersol and Ersoch, I mean, we're
28:50
not entirely sure that that Ersoch can come back. Well, no, we know one of them is gone.
28:56
Yeah, but we're not sure if the other one can even come back. Are they both gone now at this point?
29:02
Yeah, we don't know. We don't know. We haven't seen both of them in quite some time. We saw Ersoch
29:07
repeatedly, right? We did, but we've not seen Ursul period. And
29:12
keep in mind too that um again it's a really weird thing in that they the
29:18
furbul were trying to recreate um their gods in particular with a with a dead
29:24
world tree. So again they go back to that weird plant thing and possible connections to the first world tree. Uh
29:30
actually I stand corrected. We have seen Ursil or at least a reference to him as recently as Dragonfly where the
29:36
Winterpelt Furbul who worshiped Ersoch. Uh they event was not getting uh answers
29:44
to their prayers. Uh they decided to beat Ursil for his blessing and worshiped both once again
29:50
that Ursul appeared to them at their long abandoned shrined him and gave him his blessing saying that he and his
29:55
brother's paths were never meant to be taken in isolation. So we he is still around. Ursol is still with us.
30:02
That also kind of means that it's possible Ersoch is more available to return than we thought. Possibly because they are twin gods. So
30:08
a piece of him may live on an Ursil. So plus they have a one of them has a daughter.
30:13
Yes. So there's that too. But anyway, my point is just though again with the with
30:18
Ursol and Ersoch, there was you know the connection to a world tree that was attempted to be used to bring it back uh
30:24
and that ended up not being a good move. People keep trying to force this. It feels like people are trying to jump the
30:31
gate. Yeah. And we've seen that happen before too, right? And we now we have a new Loa of kings, right? We have the death loa.
30:38
We have a new Loa that that has sort of taken over that realm in place of Muisala where Guam Samdi had some
30:45
control over who came back and who didn't. Yeah. Like Guamdi was in the network, but now he has control.
30:51
He was a sub. Yeah. He was a sub lord of death and now he is the lord of death
30:56
because misala has been deposed with vulg above him in his training now which vulgs have a say in that as well.
31:02
All that to say that we have never seen the natural process work in the time that we've been around because it's
31:09
basically been broken for as long as we've been active. Yeah. And you know, the part of the reason it's been broken is the very like
31:15
the all the stuff we saw, keep in mind too, all the stuff we saw in Warcraft 3
31:20
predates all of World of Warcraft and it very clearly the Jailer had already
31:26
broken things. Yeah, he'd already gotten the helm of domination onto Azeroth. One thing I do
31:32
want to point out about the the uh quillbour that I think is often uh
31:37
overlooked is while they are very often depicted as savage and unintelligent, they are not. They are anything but. And
31:44
no, the story uh you're going to mention the story about um Bane, go for it. Well, just when when Bane
31:51
Blood Hof took the the seed of power from his deceased father, Karen, uh, one
31:56
of the things that happened was that the one of the Quillboy tribes attacked and tried to effectively take back
32:03
Thunderbluff or at least the area around it where the Quillore originally lived there. Uh, and as a part of that, they
32:10
were straight out outmaneuvering the Horde. They were using like underground currents to draw water away from the
32:17
horde and into their own usage. Yep. And it was working uh up until Bane
32:22
finally figured out a way to stop it. Yeah. And the interesting thing about that is leads into what I was going to talk about too, which is they also
32:29
practice two very specific forms of magic. One is geommancy. The only thing
32:35
that or the only ones that we have seen also exhibit that and why can I think of their name? Uh the trogdar or trog the
32:42
ones that oh man in high mountain I know who you're talking about. Um not the trogbar but
32:48
the they they practice geommancy. The only other entities on Azeroth we know
32:54
that are mortal and I'm air quoting that drogbar. Thank youar uh is the quillbbor. They are the only other ones
33:01
that have ever shown to practice that form of magic. And this is only outside
33:07
of the mortal races. We only ever see elementals do this or potentially
33:12
members of the black dragon flight which again we haven't really seen them do this but theoretically they could. The
33:21
other thing they practice is shamanism. Now their current version of shamanism is referred to as relatively crude but
33:30
theirs is more routed in the or rooted in the divination portion of shamanism.
33:35
reading stones and crystals to tell future or other things to read the read
33:42
these items. They currently regard this as their highest form of shamanism. And
33:47
even in undeath when you talk about the death's head tribes, they're still
33:52
practicing shamanism. They're still trying to reach out spirits and all that. Yes. They're still calling out to their
33:58
ancestor spirits. And keep in mind, Agamagon is their ancestor. Yes. like he straight up, you know, they
34:04
are of his blood. He says so. So, in a real way, what they're trying to do
34:10
is they're trying to reach out to him and and bring him back using, you know,
34:16
crude shamanism. And calling it crude is kind of like as much as it's Well, it's not crude so
34:23
much as it is one element focused. Yes. It's very well and that's the other thing too is like
34:28
there are other elements that tie in with the geommancy like Quillbore settlements they plant the seeds and
34:36
grow the roots of the thorns. This has been confirmed in game,
34:42
right? They look for areas where thorns will thrive. And their shamans do this
34:48
through a combination of shamanism, basically calling out to spirits for aid and the knowledge of their ancestors and
34:55
using geommancy to make it more to expedient the growth in a way that a dru
35:01
make it more fertile. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like it's just like farming. Yeah. Yeah. And actually what's really
35:06
interesting about that too, you think about it is Colulterus is a place where we already had a form of shamanism that
35:12
was fairly developed on towards one element and that was water because of all the ocean going that the humans were
35:19
doing. The quillbour weren't doing a lot of ocean going. Nope. So they tapped more into the earth.
35:25
Talking about that, we're kind of leaving out one big thing that would affect people who had geommancy and were
35:32
doing stuff in the earth. And you mentioned it. You brought the door in on this because you mentioned the drag bar.
35:38
Mhm. Deathwing. Yeah. Well, I mentioned the black dragon flight a little bit earlier, right?
35:43
Yeah. But Deathwing himself specifically, like the drag bar, they kind of make you wonder like where are
35:51
they from? Mhm. And are they are they related to the Quillbour in some way?
35:56
Are they? Because they're pretty similar other than appearance. Yeah. And I I I don't know that we ever we don't really have a origin for them,
36:04
do we? A known origin of what race they started as? This is me honestly. Like I don't know.
36:09
I I don't believe so. And for that matter, it's possible that they started as the Drogbar and then something
36:15
happened to make them something else. But if you look at Drogbar, they've got one thing that the Quillbbor have big
36:21
tusks and big noses that take up most of their face. They just don't have a projecting snout. Well, I was going to
36:27
say and also one other thing that I think is interesting. If you look at Drogbar, what is one thing that they do have on their backs and arms that is
36:34
spikes. They have spikes. Earthy thorny spikes. So, I know that Zalot in the current
36:40
expansion refers to the DG bar as failed Titan creations, but we don't know
36:46
where. And I don't know if we go back to Legion, we know that again that they
36:52
fought against the Legion when they came down. So, we know that they were there. Would it potentially make sense then
36:59
that because they were there that that's what Netheran experimented on and turned
37:04
them into potentially, right? Cuz it would suit his purpose. Or um it could it could very well be
37:11
that I mean, we see a lot of these entities that are creations of of wild
37:18
gods and and ancient ones. um that the Tora, for example, are claimed to be
37:23
originally from, you know, the ox lord. Uh but we know that they were monkeyed
37:29
with by the mou. Mhm. Were they the only ones monkeyed with by the mou? Did the mou find some dragbar
37:37
and mess around with them? I mean, keep in mind that, you know, Northrand and,
37:43
you know, this place, uh, the place where we, you know, not too far away
37:48
from each other originally. Yeah. And, you know, and the, you know, the
37:54
the, uh, the Broken Isles from from uh, Leg from Legion, they're also not very
38:00
far away from Northrand. So, all these areas were fairly close together. There
38:05
were all these different Titan facilities. It's quite possible that the wild gods found and influenced a bunch
38:12
of different peoples and vice versa. The the wild gods might have made original children for that matter. We know that
38:18
they monkeyed around with goblins. Yeah. And goblins, not just goblins themselves, but but hobgoblins. Very different from
38:24
what they were like before the titans started messing around with them. And even then, like we can't just limit it just to titans though, right? Like
38:31
we're looking at this and going back to literally dragon flight and literally going through Naltherion's laboratory,
38:38
going through his personal sanctum. Yeah, there are there are test tubes
38:43
everywhere. Uh oh yeah, and his children we know carried on this fine tradition in Blackwing layer and
38:50
Blackwing Descent uh and other places as well. Like this is not uncommon for and
38:56
while it may have been focused on dragons and making a humanoid dragon, that's not to say it's the only thing he
39:03
did. And we know that he did he might have decided he might have sat down, found himself some quillbour and said, "Now I want everything you can do
39:10
I want, but I want it in a servtor race that does what I tell it to do." And he maybe he bred them with goblins because
39:16
look at them. They look like big goblins. Yeah, they have the fangs and the but they
39:22
have the spiky the thorny spikes. They just there's a lot of ad mixture potential there and there's a lot of like possible
39:28
mixture with just being cool in general too. Same thing with the tusks and same thing with the way that the faces and
39:34
the spines and everything else. So we don't know and that that is a speculation that we can put out there that maybe drogbar are a experiment on
39:42
version of either goblins and uh quillbour maybe goblins and quillbbor maybe
39:48
quillbbor with a little goblin thrown in. Maybe they took some goblins and tried to jam quillbbor essence into
39:54
them. We don't know because deathwing does whatever he wanted to do. even when he was just Ntharian, he's like, "hm,
40:01
let's see if I can mix, you know, the, you know, the void with fire."
40:06
This is a guy who's like constantly trying to figure out new ways to do different things.
40:12
Yeah. And and to some of the other essences, like Quillbar, again, going back to him, we've talked about this
40:17
before way long ago, probably like a hundred episodes or so back about if there's ever a third faction introduced
40:24
to WoW that we would put Quillbbor in it. And I think somebody once referred to them as the mongrel horde. Um I
40:31
wouldn't call them that, but I would call them the outcasts or or like the the these are the races that have never
40:39
been offered a seat at the table at either side and have been taught treated as nuisances if anything as they compete
40:46
uh in areas that are quite uninhabitable currently for you know thin margins of
40:52
of supplies or for resources to stay alive. Quilbore are by no means
40:59
stupid. They are by no means weak. In fact, in a lot of ways, and going
41:06
back to like the Bane story and what they did with the the Torin, Kubore can be a problem if they have proper
41:12
leadership. The problem that you have is that they haven't had proper leadership
41:18
since their god has died. And Chara Chara
41:23
was not that. It was in a lot of ways somebody who craved power and sought it
41:29
wherever they could. And to answer part of your question, what did the scourge get out of their deal with the Quillbore? They got willing servants.
41:37
They got people willing to attack the living races to take them back and perform necromancy to expand their
41:44
numbers. Don't forget, I mean, that's that's just the scourge, man. The scourge will take even the slightest little advantage if they can
41:50
get it. Yeah. And and think about liches in general, right? Because that's one of the the the key things when you go through and you do the dungeon and you
41:57
get to the end there. Uh you face a lich. You face a lich that's in the center of the thicket right in center of
42:03
this crawl. And while you're there, you often ask the question, why is a lich
42:08
here? Liches need armies. While they can do a lot of magic on their own, they are
42:14
not frontline fighters. They never have been. Every lich we've ever encountered in game is more of a manipulator because
42:22
they realize how frail they actually are. If Yeah. The only time we've seen a lich do
42:27
anything like frontline fighting is when the entire legion was attacking um Mount
42:33
Hyel. And even then it was sending waves and waves and waves and waves of undead
42:38
before he finally came up. And even then they didn't actually die because you didn't kill their felacrity
42:44
flactory. I can never pronounce that word. I'm sorry. But it's not like they're carrying it with them into
42:50
battle. It's somewhere safe where they can retreat to. But going to like Skolamance, one of the bosses you fight
42:57
is a lich and it does retreat into it. It's it's essentially where it's house its mortal remains and you have to
43:04
destroy that. But there's an army around it. It's supposed to be in a place that is kept safe. And here is the same
43:12
thing. This lich is getting an army. It's getting those that are succumbing
43:18
to the forces of the scourge and its control. And it's Yeah, it's also worth pointing out um to
43:25
to go along with what you were saying to to amplify it in a way when we see Arthus go down, one of the first things
43:32
that happens is that all the really powerful members of the scourge go from
43:37
we are servants of the scourge to I'm going to look out for myself. And liches are among the first to do this.
43:43
Yeah. Petty warlords almost. Yeah. So, it's well within a lich's attitude even while serving the scourge
43:50
that he would build up his own personal power. Mhm. And then once the scourge has doesn't have unified leadership at the top, all
43:58
the all the liches and other powerful undead start thinking of themselves as
44:03
the obvious choice for guy at the top. And the first thing you need is an army.
44:10
And and again, in a way, it kind of shows to our ignorance of the Quillboard that we're so surprised the Scourge
44:15
would want them. It's like we think they're garbage, but they've been living there getting slowly pushed to the
44:21
margins for thousands of years. Like there's a there's a huge, you know,
44:26
that's that's a talent pool of resentment you can draw on. It's much easier to get people who hate everyone
44:32
around them to to kill those people for you. So, yeah, I think that I think that Joe's totally right on this one. I just
44:38
wanted to mention that as an amplifier. Liches are liches are incredibly self
44:43
motivated even when the scourge is is doing well, much less when it's broken. Yeah. And I'm hoping that in the future
44:50
I love the Quillbore. I think that they are one of the more fascinating races in the same way that I love the Furbul. I
44:56
think that they are fantastic. And I've always liked the more anim animalistic races of WoW or heritages of WoW because
45:04
I think they offer a different nonhuman perspective. Uh same thing when the
45:09
Vulper were brought in and and at some point maybe the Seth Seth will be
45:15
brought in. I like those perspectives because they tend to give you cart blanche. their viewpoints aren't
45:21
necessarily those of the same of your purely humanoid races where like an elf
45:27
and an orc and a human uh even a goblin, a dwarf, they all have sort of like the
45:33
same I don't want to say viewpoint, but because they're full functioning societies at this point, they're not
45:40
marginalized like others. They don't have sort of the same they don't have
45:45
the same worldview, right? But they're not the only ones with deep heritage. I'd like to see the Quillbbor and the
45:50
Fearborg explored more. I'd like to maybe see them elevated a little bit more. And maybe we'll get that when we
45:57
get to the Last Titan. Maybe there will be an element about that because I think that they tie in with that because
46:02
they've fought for this world. They've fought for Azeroth since the very beginning. And while some of them lack a
46:09
steady leadership, they could be brought back into the fold. could be brought back into the the the the mix of things
46:16
in Azeroth's Darkest Hour, which may be coming in the near future. Uh I think we have time for one more here and this one
46:23
is from Drawy, a hunter from Giwix. Uh so going with the speculation a couple
46:28
episodes back about the Titans. If the Titans are not all order, but only Amanthul is, and the other titans are
46:34
connected to other forces of existence, AR for life, Argus for death, etc., Would Azeroth, if she is indeed a Titan,
46:40
be the final Titan? Because she's the only one connected to all forces. She's the one that manages to represent the
46:45
entirety of creation because she's placed somewhere connected to all to everything else without one single force
46:50
being greater than the others. Uh we'll do the bonus questions at a later date, but for that one, Matt and I have been
46:56
talking about this for a while, and Matt and I, I think, are on the same train where we're starting to maybe think that
47:01
Azeroth isn't a Titan at all. that Azeroth Azeroth is something an order of
47:07
magnitude above it or something completely different. I've actually come to the point where I don't think titans are the word titan
47:14
doesn't mean what we have thought it meant. Like calling something a titan just means it is an intensely powerful
47:20
entity that draws upon something beyond this existence.
47:25
Um and that's why creatures like wild gods are rooted in this existence.
47:32
They're rooted in this universe, so they're not outsider beings. So, they're not Titan. But if Sargeras is still a
47:39
Titan, then and we know that there was a Titan that was a void being for about a billionth of a second before Sargeras
47:46
killed it, the nature of what a Titan is, isn't what we thought it was.
47:51
They're not the same just because they have similar origins. Yeah. Like each one of them seems to tap into
47:57
more. Yeah. I and and I think that is I'm trying to think how to phrase this. I
48:03
maintain that Azeroth is a nexus point and I've said this for we've been doing
48:08
this for you know hundreds of episodes. I think I said this as early as like episodes like three or four that Azeroth
48:16
is this weird center point of You have made that point over and over again. Absolutely you have. I think it
48:23
was our if it wasn't our second episode it was shortly there after. It was it was damn closer when we started doing
48:29
this with an um and I think that that's very unique. And I think that the story
48:34
of the Last Titan I don't think it's actually about Azeroth at all. And I think that and this is a whole separate
48:41
thing and I'm sorry that we're taking this a little bit out to the side, but that's why you're here, isn't it? I still think that Sargeras might be the
48:48
air quote final Titan. He might be the last Titan. I don't think when they say rebuild the final Titan, I don't know
48:55
that it's necessarily Azeroth. Azeroth doesn't necessarily need to ever have been rebuilt. Azeroth kind of touches
49:01
everything. And if anything, I think the the weird swerve is that Sargeras may
49:06
have been right all along and that Azeroth needed to be freed from whatever prison it's in. And and this is just me
49:13
with the tinfoil hat thing. I know we've talked about this before, but I can't get out of my head that maybe all these
49:19
Titan facilities weren't for channeling spirit back into Azeroth, but were for
49:24
keeping Azeroth dormant because they I don't think maybe Alan Ful wanted Azeroth to wake up because he doesn't
49:30
know what it is or that it's more powerful than he is. And Sargeras may have had the right of it all along and
49:36
fallen to the dark side of things in the way that he went about stuff. And maybe rebuilding the Final Titan is bringing
49:43
Sargeras back to the light or in this case the right, the center, the mid, the
49:48
balance. So maybe that's it. But I do think that Azeroth being connected to everything is special. It's a balancing
49:56
act. And I do think it goes back to whatever the first one's goal was. We
50:01
know that in the sepicore it there there's pieces that touch here. The zeriths touch. There's a reason for
50:07
that. Matt has speculated that there's likely a zerith in all of the other elemental realms. There likely is and
50:15
they likely touch Azeroth as well. Whether this we know there's at least one. We know there's at least one, right?
50:21
Well, I mean, besides like Zerith Mortise, we know there's a Zerith Orortis because they the Titans like
50:27
Odin uh Titan Forged have mentioned it and we can speculate that it ties to
50:32
order somehow some from the naming scheme if we're we're being pedantic about it. But there's probably Zerith
50:38
Vite or you know Zerith whatever element or plane or primary form of existence is
50:45
out there that you know Zerith Arcanus or something like that. There could be a
50:50
bunch of these and we don't know what they are, where they are. We also don't know that necessarily they exist on the
50:56
plane that we can see because the other thing that I've been thinking about for a while is because Azeroth touches
51:01
everything. And I remember our first introduction to the Shadowland. Before the Shadowlands existed as a place we
51:08
could go to, we experienced it in two very specific ways. When we died, we saw
51:14
the shadowlands as overlaid over Azeroth, which was Azeroth, but grayed
51:20
out, devoid of all color, and spirit healers guiding our way back to our bodies, us shoving our spirits orma back
51:28
into our meat shells, doing the same thing that Gul'dan did to the original death knights, just without any of the
51:33
the decay or tranchians. We also experience it during the death knight
51:39
like opening quests. The the the the stuff that started you on your path as a death knight. You go to the Shadowlands.
51:47
You pull things out of the Shadowlands. You pull your mount out of the Shadowlands. There's a whole slew of
51:52
stuff there. What if Azeroth being the center of everything and being touched by everything isn't necessarily that
51:59
it's just feeding into it, but Azeroth exists in all of these places all at the same time? And what if that's part of
52:06
what the original Emerald Dream is? What if the Emerald Dream isn't necessarily the Emerald Dream, but it's Zerith Vite?
52:12
It's the part of Azeroth that has encompassed all of life and it's that extra layer. It's an extra dimensional shift of it. Like I keep thinking of
52:19
that multiversal theory, right? Like you you tune your frequency and you just see a different color and you see a
52:25
different layer layered over the world. And maybe there's something to that, maybe there's nothing there. I don't
52:30
know. But I think whatever it is scares the hell out of Aanthal. And I don't
52:36
know that she is a Titan in the true sense of what we understand a Titan to be. I still maintain that she's an order
52:42
of magnitude higher. And I'll let Matt depart his thoughts here cuz I I could keep talking about this for hours.
52:47
Who was the first Titan? We we think it's Ammon or we're told it's Ammon. Then think about this. Who's the last
52:54
Titan that they found? If we don't count Azeroth, who is the last one? I think it's Sargeras, isn't it? No,
53:01
Sargeras was next. Was it Argamar? Yes. Oh, now think about for a second. What does
53:08
rebuild mean? And also, I want to make this point. It isn't Agramar. Although
53:14
it certainly looks like it's Agramar at first, but the last Titan we've ever seen, Argus.
53:20
Argus. Yeah. And where is Argus right now? Technically, the Shadowlands.
53:26
Yep. Is ar is Argus supposed to be in the shadowlands? No, but we know that part of him is in
53:32
the shadowlands, but we know that he's the he's supposed to be air quote the titan of death. So So he would need rebuilding, wouldn't
53:37
he? He would. His pieces together. Think think about now this for a second. If each of the titans died, if they had
53:46
they lost their physical forms and only through the power of Noranin did they survive at all. Only through Noran's
53:53
magical weaving. Mhm. and then they took Sargeras with them into the seat of the pantheon. What
53:59
if what we're going to get isn't Sargeras coming back or Argus coming
54:04
back, but something that is all of them. Yeah. The the Voltron moment for the Titans, right?
54:10
Yeah. And the reason that they would do this would be to give their life for
54:16
Azeroth. Because let's think for a moment again that the word titan doesn't mean you know these specific entities
54:22
are titans and nothing else is. The word titan is as has as much meaning as the term loa or wild god or ancient or you
54:32
know you know august celestials. These are all terms for the same beings. Like a loa, in fact, Loa is so
54:39
all-encompassing that anything can be a loa if it's go, you know, it's ultimately down to is there a reason for
54:46
us to worship this thing? Okay, it's Aloa. And in a way, I think that that that worldview that the trolls have is
54:54
the closest to what we kind of need when we're looking at the word Titan. Yeah, I would agree because is Alman Thul for one thing,
55:01
Amanthul certainly comes off worse for wear in some of the things we've gotten since uh Dragonflight like the whole
55:07
deal with ANR and Eloon and Amanthul's hostility. But the thing is Amadul has
55:13
been dead for thousands of years now. And in that time when we see the
55:20
Pantheon in Legion, they all work together. They have to. And they've all been dead
55:25
except for one, the one that they're grabbing and pulling into them. We've
55:31
seen that that Sargeras wanted them to admit he was right. Yeah. He was desperate for them to admit that
55:38
he was right. He was desperate for the validation of his family. It was more important to him than
55:43
winning. Mhm. Imagine if they admitted he was right. Like they don't have to break him. They
55:48
could literally just say, "You were right. You were doing it wrong, but you were right." And boom, he got what he
55:55
wanted. He got everything he wanted. He didn't necessarily care about winning. In fact, this whole time he's been
56:02
thinking it's all pointless anyway. And he just wants to destroy everything so that nothing horrible can come. But if
56:07
they tell him, look, there's this thing worse than this and none of us can stop
56:12
it. I mean, think about it this way. We've talked about the Union of Forces. We talked about how Azeroth connects to
56:18
everywhere. So, do each of the Titans connect to one place? Yeah. If you bring them all together, if you
56:25
have that Voltron moment, what do you get? You get the final Titan. And what does the final Titan do? It dies. You
56:33
know what? Going off that, what if that was the entire point of Azeroth to begin with? What if that I always thought
56:38
about this too. What if the Titan facilities aren't actually Titan facilities? What if it wasn't built by the Titans and the Watchers? What if
56:45
that cuz we see similar machinery in you know Shadowlands in Zerith Mortise,
56:51
right? You mean what if it's first one stuff that got repurposed? What if it's first one stuff that got repurposed? And what if the original
56:56
purpose was for all the titans to find it and to essentially use them as methods to inject their power into
57:02
Azeroth to inject their become greater than become a greater hole. But also think what that might mean for those
57:08
facil because we know that you could get from Zerith Mortise to Azeroth via the
57:15
giant soul engine underneath Ice Crown which would presumably be connected to
57:20
all the Titan facilities which in Ice Crown which means ultimately the prison
57:26
for Yagaron the again doing air quotes here. I don't know why I'm doing air quotes. You can't see me. uh the god of
57:32
death and well and and think of it even one step further too like what's right next to Ice Crown that's been broken that we
57:38
don't I don't think we really talked about right like we know that it's part of the forge of wills but you have the
57:44
engine of the makers that's frozen solid yeah engine of the makers engine of the makers right
57:52
part of the forge of wills yeah
57:57
and think about too where does that have there's other places on Azeroth where that thing seems to to go like in
58:06
that thing seems to go all the way to to you know um can't remember the name of that stupid place but it's where the Mou
58:12
were generating their army out of uh oh man why can't I remember this you got you know what I'm talking about um that
58:18
whole island that uh Thunder you know um the Thunder King was a thunder
58:24
yeah the aisle of thunder is a gigantic fortress of some kind and when you get
58:29
to the thunder King himself when you get to to to the fight him. What that whole area is clearly made out of the same
58:36
stuff and the place where you know Raen, Master Ra, the guy that can make pocket
58:42
universes was being kept is in that place.
58:48
And we know that all the facilities were connected at some point, too. We know that for a fact. But we not only we know
58:53
that for a fact, we know that they're still connected because when mother calls,
58:59
she's mentioning this one's online, this one's online, this one's online, and doesn't they won't contact her. They
59:05
won't let her put put them into the uh network. Well, no. Even wor even worse, they shut it off, right? Like it's somebody pick
59:12
uh what's his name? Picks up and says no and hangs up. Mhm. Uh Mimmerron.
59:17
Mimon. Mimon does. So what we have on Azeroth
59:22
might actually be the origin of what we see in other worlds as similar
59:27
constructs. It's true. Argus is the Argus' Antourus might be
59:33
someone building similar things to connect him to Zerith Mortise. Well, we and we know for a fact that
59:39
that's that's very likely the case. Like we can infer with a certain amount of certainty that that is the case because
59:45
because it's there resurrection chamber. it. That resurrection chamber we know is a and I'm going to air quote Titan
59:50
facility, but it's because that's what Sargeras used it for. We don't know that that wasn't there beforehand. We don't
59:56
know that it wasn't something that the first ones put out into the universe or put there to specifically
1:00:01
also consider the fact that there's a the crystal that eventually becomes the atomi crystals was on Dranor
1:00:10
25,000 years ago and nobody knew where it came from. It was so ancient
1:00:16
and for all we know it could be part of that whole f of the first one's machinery. It could be machinery part of
1:00:23
this in as much as anything else. It could be a resonant crystal. It could have been a it could have been purpose-built.
1:00:29
Yeah. I mean for all that for that matter too because what do we know? What do we know? You know what what do we what do
1:00:35
we know from the shadowlands? Where do what was the jailer using to hold the souls of the animal of those imprisoned?
1:00:41
Giant crystals. Yeah. for that matter. He even created something akin to the heart of Azeroth
1:00:46
for that purpose. So as so the Automali crystal being on Argus and Argus being the Titan of Death is probably not a mistake. It is
1:00:53
probably very much important and it is probably the Adomi crystal is probably something that tuned it into the damn Shadowlands. And I can't believe we are
1:00:59
just now talking about this where we should have seen this a while ago. Yeah. But think about the fact too that what happens when you break that
1:01:05
crystal. Yeah. You get other crystals that each have a specific resonance.
1:01:11
Yep. like leaf shadow. Yep. That's clearly touching into the the
1:01:16
plane of nature and the one that made uh the the the Drani settlements completely
1:01:23
unassalable until they got it until the Horde took it. And that's just one of the of the Adomi crystals. And keep in
1:01:29
mind, too, that we're pretty sure that the crystal that went into the Ash Maker, I mean, the Ashbrer wasn't part
1:01:36
of the Adomi crystal. Yeah. And we can think that and it could and it did the exact thing Anaru does. It touched on one force and
1:01:44
then could be changed to another force and it and we know that it was broken into what? Seven pieces I think
1:01:49
I think it's seven pieces. Yeah. Which would make it exactly what is it? It was the the red which was like the heart of fury, the brilliant star, leaf
1:01:56
shadow, spirit song, eye of the storm, fortune smile, shield of the Naru. Uh
1:02:01
which I think would yeah we could we don't have time. We are probably gonna
1:02:06
revisit this in a future episode because now my head is spinning with a bunch of other stuff and I need to cross reference. No, you do not have time. Let me sum up.
1:02:14
Uh, all right. Get back to for a second. Yeah. Basically, all of this stuff that we've been considering the Titan stuff might
1:02:23
have been First one's stuff the whole time. And that might be why when Anduin
1:02:29
goes to the Shadowlands, he can turn that thing on because he is directly
1:02:35
descended from the first ones in a way because Azeroth, the world he's from, is
1:02:42
their direct creation. Unlike the other, and I'm air quoting again, I got to stop
1:02:47
that, Titans. The other titans are all singular in their linkage, but Azeroth
1:02:55
is not. I and that also then there's a whole thing with Aloon here, but I I I think you're right. We got to stop soon. We'll be
1:03:01
home. We're going to we're going to call it here. We are going to revisit this and this might be next episode, might be the
1:03:07
episode after, but we will absolutely revisit this. Uh but I do want to thank you because Blizzard is made possible
1:03:13
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1:03:19
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1:03:44
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1:03:49
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