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Lore Watch Podcast 180: Interview with WoW Lead Narrative Designer Steve Danuser
May 7, 2024
In this BlizzConline 2021 special podcast, Matt Rossi and Joe Perez interview WoW's Lead Narrative Designer Steve Danuser. They focus on Sylvanas, what makes Shadowlands characters special, and revisiting characters like Draka.
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Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Hello everyone and welcome to a very special edition of Lorewatch
0:14
You're going to get a double dose this week. We have a very, very special guest
0:19
And I'm going to let him introduce himself because I think it's a super surprise. And I think it's better to hear it in his own voice
0:25
Hey, everybody. I'm Steve Denuser. I'm the lead narrative designer on World of
0:29
of Warcraft. Steve's the one that gets to listen to all of our weird tinfoil hatty stuff and laugh as we
0:36
are way off base. So it is an honor to have you on the show with us
0:41
Thank you very, very much for taking the time today. We know that you are all very busy with everything that's going on today
0:46
It is awesome to be here. A big fan of the work you folks do
0:52
And so super excited. Let's get to it. We're definitely a big fan of yours as well
0:57
I guess I'll kick it over to Matt first. is there any pressing questions that you think we can actually get Steve to answer that aren't going to break any sort of like NDA requirements
1:08
All right. I'm fighting the urge to hit the push to talk button that currently doesn't work. So we're now having seen a little bit of the con. We're now clear that, you know, since the Antoine story didn't end up going anywhere, we're moving in this new My Little Pony direction. I'm really excited about it
1:26
seriously I know you can't tell us too much about what we're going to see but you've been getting to work this is a story that you guys have been setting up since going you can go back a long way here we could we could probably safely say some of this is from world as a drann or even um since you guys have to tell storytelling the way you do you have to tell stuff and basically you drop a big patch and then people devour it and then you they wait how do you feel that affects how you guys roll out this kind of stuff how do you like how do you get your
1:56
story beets lined up. How have you been preparing for this moment? Yeah, it's certainly
2:02
you know, it's a great medium to work in, but it poses challenges like anything else
2:09
any other form of storytelling. So it has its own, you know, benefits and things that can be
2:15
challenges. But for like this long-term storytelling, we definitely do take that long view
2:21
and we plan things out in advance. And, you know, we've learned a lot over the years
2:26
in terms of pacing and how things work well and some things that didn't work as well
2:32
And we try to keep refining that. And so when it came to Shadowlands, we knew we had the story that we wanted to tell
2:37
that certainly there's, you know, it's a big afterlife, right? Like there's all kinds of realms there
2:43
and every realm has its own stories and we're introducing tons of great new characters
2:48
But we also knew that this story that is kind of this trifecta
2:53
of Andwin and Silvanus, the jailer, how their fates intertwine, the choices that have been made over the years
3:01
We knew that was going to be a pivotal piece of the story. And so we've gone to great lengths to kind of plan and map that out
3:10
We have story beats that we've hit so far and that we're intending to go
3:18
And we knew that we wanted that initial Shadowlands story, the kind of 9-0 launch story
3:26
to end on something of a cliffhanger of Sylvana standing there with the sword, Kingsbourne
3:32
kind of pointing at Andouin and him saying, now you've got to make your choice
3:37
And we wanted to leave it there, but not for too long. So BlissConline is a great chance
3:43
for us to show you, you know, the, what comes next after that
3:49
And so it worked out really well for us, we think. I hope everyone's really excited by that
3:54
I know it won't be without people getting a bit worried about Andwin, but that's perfectly natural
4:02
But we're super excited. The story has a long way to go
4:06
And it's got some cool, cool things coming, which, of course, I won't reveal right now
4:13
Yeah, I know. So with, I think this has been one of the most polarizing stories, at least with the fan base that I've seen in quite a little bit
4:22
especially with Anduin and Silvanus and different parts of the fandom latching on to
4:27
different aspects of it. Has that proven to be difficult with looking at how people are reacting to it and knowing
4:35
what you have planned? Or is it something where the reactions are kind of what you expected
4:42
Well, it's, you know, we're well aware of the many different perspectives people have
4:49
on Sylvannis as a character. There's people who have loved her for a very long time
4:54
and have looked for the good, the heroic parts of her. And clearly she's had those
5:00
Like she's a master strategist. She died for her people. But then she's also done terrible things
5:09
And so there's a whole other group of people who thinks she should pay for what she's done
5:13
And so we're well aware of that. Some of us are in both camps. Yeah
5:17
And that's fine. hopefully that's the mark of a really interesting character is that there is a lot of
5:25
you know, you can make a case either way and both cases are perfectly valid. So, you know
5:31
that again, that's such a treat to work with characters like that, because if characters are
5:35
only one thing, you know, you can tell some cool stories with them, but the more multifaceted
5:41
the more nuance there is to someone, the longer lasting their impact, I think. And so
5:47
So Savonis is definitely one of those characters that is that for us. So, you know, we we didn't approach any of this story of hers or Anduins lightly
5:58
We were very, we've been very thoughtful. We, I can't tell you the number of hours that I've spent in conversations with my
6:04
with my fellow developers, with folks like Taryn Gregory, Christy Golden. We were joined at the hip and we meet and talk about all this stuff
6:13
All the stuff you saw in that cinematic was really a labor of love of us going
6:16
back and forth and challenging one another and really like trying to to whittle down to the core
6:22
of the storyline that we're trying to tell there. So, you know, whether, you know, certainly
6:27
we can't tell a story that pleases everybody, but hopefully there's something in there that
6:32
you can appreciate those nuances, those little looks that Solvonis gives. You know, you can, it's, thanks to the great work that Terran and his team do, you can see
6:44
the look in her eyes and know that she's not just twirling her mustache at Andwin
6:49
that this is something that means a lot to her. And now the fact that we know what she's done
6:56
that she's gone through with this domination of Andwin, now we get to see how that affects not only him
7:03
but it will affect her as well. All right. I guess I get good to go next then
7:10
You have a huge canvas here, not just because you've got, you're in the shadowlands
7:14
you can pull in characters who've been dead for years, you can pretty much do anything you want to do
7:20
And I know you can't tell me stuff, you know, you can't give me a lot of specifics
7:24
but has there been any character that you weren't expecting to use that you ended up using
7:29
that you find has changed or broadened out the story in some way
7:33
that has made it different than you expected. Hmm. That's interesting. You know
7:39
we spent so much time thinking, because like you said, there were so many opportunities here and so many ways we could have gone
7:47
And, you know, we didn't want Shadowlands to just be this nostalgia trip where you kind of just like
7:53
oh, what's the greatest hits? And oh, I get to spend five minutes with that character
7:57
And oh it so fun to spend it We wanted to pick ones that would be meaningful And there characters that you wouldn want to use because you pretty much had done all you felt you needed to do with them or something like that That the thing Like you know there plenty that it would have been great fun to revisit in some way
8:13
But, you know, we also asked ourselves, well, would that just be self-serving, you know
8:17
would it would be spending time that would be better spent somewhere else
8:21
And so that's why we went in some of those cases with characters like Draca
8:25
That was someone who with so much potential to be awesome. And it had only been hinted at in ways that a lot of our fans, you know, it was hard for them to pick up on that because it was in a book or, you know, the alternate Dranor and stuff like that
8:40
So that gave us a chance to really showcase some of these characters
8:47
And I'm really grateful that fans have responded so well to people like Draca
8:53
And it's great to see Uther there again. As you saw, he made a little appearance in the Chains of Domination
8:59
cinematic. And so that's another storyline that we'll get to delve into and continue
9:04
Since you had talked about, since you mentioned with the, what your team can actually do
9:10
the look that he gives Andouin and the moment there. That was actually one of the things that you're
9:17
getting to see is visual acting on these cinematics. That's actually way beyond
9:21
I think I've said before back in in Legion, I think I said that the cinematics had gotten to the
9:25
point, the rendered cinematics, not even just the amazing. you've always done amazing, you know, fully CGI Cinematics
9:32
but the in-game rendered cinematics have really broadened out what you can do
9:36
storytelling-wise that you can cut in and you can still show the characters
9:39
as they look when we're in the game doing things, having their moments
9:44
I think although I'm never going to forget seeing Agramar come down
9:49
and my character standing there going, oh, hi. Yeah. But I think this one, in this expansion you've done the most in terms of pure
9:58
emotional storytelling in that way. That's not just somebody telling me what they feel
10:03
but actually showing it. It's actually been, it's been kind of amazing. I don't want to
10:08
I want to let Joe ask a question, but I just want to throw out. Is there, is there any moment in particular that you guys have done
10:14
that you've gotten an unusual fan reaction to? Like, you weren't expecting people to pick
10:18
like, I'll just use one thing. The storytelling in Arden Weald, where the little squirrel sits on my head for an entire quest
10:25
Oh, too. It's like, one of my favorite moments. And it's like, I mean, land of the dead and I have a squirrel riding on my head. Why is this so affecting? Why do I care
10:33
about this squirrel and his little friends that you managed to get me to care about these little
10:37
these characters that aren't there very long? You know, and you introduce them and you use
10:42
them to fill out the world. So is there anybody that you brought in that you've filled out the
10:47
world with that you were surprised? Like, does Decimator Olga really popular? Because I wanted to
10:52
be. Yeah, people love things like that. And, you know, I, That's really the secret sauce of our team because that's really the stuff that, you know
11:04
we have so many wonderful designers and artists and folks who put their passion into this game
11:14
And so, like, you know, the big cinematics and stuff, they get lots of attention and they get lots of love and deservedly so
11:20
But the secret sauce of wow is really those little moments of unexpected joy and wonder and just something that makes you
11:28
you smile, you have a little squirrel on your shoulder, finding Pepe in a tree
11:33
And those are the things that we don't plan for. We just kind of let our team go wild in the world
11:40
And, you know, Shadowlands is a big story with a lot of, you know, kind of complex themes
11:46
And there's a lot of stuff to think about there. But we also want those moments of charm and wonder
11:52
And that's where, you know, our team really gets to shine. And so there's lots of those little things tucked away, whether it's just a little cameo from an NPC like the decimator or if it's, again, just some little interactions that make you chuckle
12:09
That's the stuff that really keeps wow special. You might want to bring Oliver's husband in at some point
12:15
I think Olga's husband could be an interesting character to see that. Could be, could be
12:20
If you ever knew his name. Who knows? Some things can never be known, Matt
12:25
Come on. One of the things I think is really interesting about this expansion over some of the other things that I think have happened in the past is Shadowlands feels surprisingly free of some of the weight of Azaroth
12:39
A lot of the places we've gone in the past have had sort of like this history that defines what these places can be
12:46
In Shadowlands, when you're creating these realms, I'm kind of curious how freeing it was when developing the stories for them with saying
12:54
we're not tethered. And along that same vein, because world building is one of those things that I find absolutely
13:01
fascinating, when doing that, did any of the zones start to take on a life in the story
13:07
that you didn't expect or become a standout to you in the creative process
13:14
Yeah, certainly, you know, the ability to have an expansion like Shadowlands that was a blank slate
13:21
you know, they're sure we've had mentions, sure we've dipped our toe in, sure we knew that this was, you know, the afterlives
13:28
But to a large extent, it was wide open territory for us to define and to decide what kind of place it would be, what kind of stories we wanted to tell there
13:38
And that sort of challenge is both incredibly exciting and it can be scary for folks too, because we deal so much in, you know, Azaroth itself has so much history
13:51
and so much familiarity, there's a comfort to kind of wrapping yourself in that blanket and
13:56
knowing like, yeah, I'm going to tell the story of Caltiris or Zandilar. And yeah, you know
14:00
I'm going to places that people don't know about, but everything you see there strikes some
14:05
familiarity to you, you know, like you, Cotyrus is awesome and Barales and stuff is sprawling
14:12
But like it feels like, oh, yeah, this is what it should be. Yeah, totally get it. You're in there
14:17
for five minutes or you're, you know, you're running through Zandalar and you're, you're
14:21
You just get it. So Shadowlands face like, well, you know, how do we introduce this
14:26
How do we tell this story? And so we put a lot of thought into like here, you know, all these concepts that we needed to get across just so you understood what was going on
14:36
And then how are we telling these local stories? Because really those zone by zone stories are the hallmark of wow, you know, immersing yourself in a place and the people and the conflicts they're facing and the hardships and how you're helping them overcome it
14:49
that's part and parcel of what World Warcraft is. And certainly, you know, there was some unknown there
14:55
like, are people going to get it? Are they going to understand? You know, is this going to feel too different
15:00
from what they've seen before? And so I was personally very just heartened by, you know
15:07
even the first streams that were going up as people were streaming beta and stuff like that
15:11
Like just, they weren't treating it as this different, wildly different place
15:16
It was just Azaroff, but a different way of seeing. a different facet of the existence that was familiar to them
15:23
So in that respect, it was what we hoped for, and it was very gratifying that it seemed to work out
15:31
And again, that's totally because of the passion and dedication of the entire team
15:36
that loves this game so much and loves this world. If anything, you know, things that surprise me
15:45
it's always, again, those little moments of delight that somebody put in
15:48
there that that people glom on to. Certainly Ardenwield is full of things that people have
15:56
just just really developed fondness for. But even in places like Maldraxas, things, you know
16:03
like Merrillith has become such a fan favorite as well So even in a place that can be as as you know brutal and gladiatorial as Maldraxas has those same little bits of charm And
16:17
and again, just kudos to the team for making that possible. Yeah
16:22
that's actually, I want to bring that to something. You guys have done this
16:26
this expansion, whatever people's feelings on it, I think it's one of the better ones you've ever done
16:31
And you did it under an amazingly difficult, I mean, global pandemic, staying home, the whole nine yards
16:41
And you had to delay the launch because of that. Do you feel like that was a right call story-wise
16:48
Like you guys got everything done. Everything's worked out the way you're happy with what you got here
16:52
Because I think you should be, but I want to know what you guys feel. Yeah
16:56
The team is super proud of this. And it does take on some special significance because of the adversities that we went through
17:04
Like, as all of us know, none of this was easy on anybody
17:09
You know, there's no one who can just say, oh, yeah, that, that pandemic hasn't really
17:15
affected me that much. Like, it's touched all of us in many different ways
17:19
And when your, when your job is about creativity and bringing, you know, excitement to, you know
17:27
the team and to the audience that loves this world so much, like, that's a, you know
17:33
that's a pressure of its own under these circumstances. So again, like it's awesome that we had the
17:40
support from our leadership to be able to say, you know, we want this to be awesome and it's just going
17:45
to take a little longer than that we initially thought it would. And from top to bottom
17:50
we had that support. And the number one thing for us is that, you know, however, whatever the circumstances
17:59
we're facing, that when we deliver something and expansion to this, game that we love, that it represents the quality and the heart that we intend to put into it
18:08
So absolutely it was the right decision. We never want to make people have to wait longer than they want to for content, but we want
18:16
it to be the awesomest thing it can be. And that takes time sometimes, especially under these circumstances
18:21
I mean, obviously these things mirror the world that they're made in. And I mean, going back, like I said, since this is long-form storytelling, since you're
18:28
going to be working on something for years, you might come out with like, hey, let's do
18:33
an expansion that's all about demons invading and then 2016 happens and you're like oh and the next
18:40
expansion where there's a pointless war being fought over resources and we're all kind of unhappy about it
18:45
but we have to fight it and meanwhile the old gods and then you know the past four years are happening
18:49
while that story is unfolding does it ever feel like you guys have got some kind of strange
18:54
prophecy ball here that you're working on that you like predicting things well i hope not i hope it's
19:01
I hope the secret isn't that, that World of Warcraft is somehow prescient
19:07
It's, it's predicting things. No, like, you know, yeah, the world is reflected in our
19:12
in our day-to-day lives or day-to-day work. There's no way that it isn't
19:17
But, you know, we, the great thing about working on this game, though
19:21
is that it's also aspirational. So that no matter what we're facing in life
19:27
Azaroth is a place that we can be, sorry if this is going to sound corny, but I mean it
19:32
Like our better selves, like our best selves can go into this world, and we can see ourselves in a way that it can be hard to sometimes in life
19:41
And that's one of the most gratifying things, as I've met players over the years of MMOs that I've worked on
19:50
it's that so many of them are grateful for this, I won't call it escape, even though you know
19:57
you can think of it as an escape from reality, but it's really like just being able to engage in kind of an ideal place where you can, you know
20:05
stand beside people from all over the world and just do these wonderful, fun things and just
20:12
you know, get fancy armor and look cool and have mounts and pets and all of that stuff
20:17
But it's just a very enriching part of people's lives. Yeah, my wife often says, you know, when I'm down in the world, in the game, I can go do something
20:26
Like if I have a problem, I can do something. don't have to just sit here and take it. So yeah, there is that. Yeah, that's, you know, I don't
20:33
I don't have any illusions that we're curing cancer or, you know, like, frontline workers who've
20:39
been so amazing through this pandemic, like, they're the, they're the true heroes. But, but I do
20:44
strongly feel that games like this, these worlds that our team and many other teams around the
20:50
world make, they have value and that they have substance and that they can bring good things to
20:55
the world. And, you know, that's, that's where I take my pride. That's, you know, one of the things
21:00
that keeps me going, no matter what we're facing the world is I know that we're bringing some
21:04
some light and some hope to people. And even in a small way, that feels really good
21:09
I think it's also especially really nice to point out, like, these types of games, yeah
21:13
they have value. And I call it reality augmentation, just like you have that enrichment
21:18
where we can do things together and uncover things together. And it's sort of like that, that quest for
21:24
cooperative experience sort of like just kind of happens and it fits so naturally here
21:31
And it's also one of those things where I think you have built in some pretty big moments in the
21:37
story beats that that sort of help facilitate that a lot too. They feel very grand
21:42
They feel very important, especially when you're doing them with friends or you feel, you don't feel
21:49
alone in those moments even when you're playing them alone. So first, I mean, I want to say thank you
21:54
for that with the development of the story in that regard because you'd never feel like you're
21:58
truly alone, which is really, really interesting, especially for anybody who plays these
22:03
game solo, between the companions, the NPCs you interact with the number of NPCs you interact
22:08
with at a very close level, phenomenal work as far as that goes
22:14
The other thing that I was going to point out or ask about is over the last several years
22:19
it seems like there's been a very concerted effort to have one
22:24
one narrative voice. Is that accurate? Has there been something that, that as a group, as a company, you've sat down and said
22:34
you know, questing and storytelling and lore and everything is going to start, you know
22:39
actually interacting with each other because there were a while there, it felt like there was a little bit of a disconnect earlier on in WOW's evolution
22:47
And over the last several expansions, it's definitely seemed like you've kind of got one point you're all working towards
22:52
well you know i've been on the team only for well i guess it's about six years now and so i can't speak
23:00
to you know how things uh went before but you know like with any medium uh people's you know hopefully
23:07
where our skills are evolving and that we're getting better at doing some of these things and that
23:11
we're learning lessons from what went before and you know even if you look at those first expansions
23:16
burning crusade wrath of lich king cataclysm like there were very much self-contained stories and there were
23:22
for, you know, for immersing yourself in that. And then everything wrapped up and then you moved on to the next thing
23:27
And the pattern shifted, as I think entertainment in general has moved towards a more
23:33
you know, kind of a longer form storytelling that our expansions started taking that on as well
23:39
And that's a tradition we've continued to evolve. And certainly Shadowlands, as you've pointed out, builds on threads and plots and characters
23:49
that we've been working with over. the last several expansions that we're building to these things
23:55
So, you know, and hopefully, hopefully it does feel more connected. We've, we spent a lot of time in Shadowlands and, you know, even in updates like
24:06
visions of Nazath we tried to really make the story feel like it was embedded in the systems that you are engaging with you know things like the horrific visions and the corrupted gear They all work together to tell the story of Nazas influence
24:22
in the world. And we tried to do that in shadowlands as well, with the soul binds and the
24:27
legendaries, you know, interacting with the room carver, like all that kind of stuff. So, and that's
24:33
that's definitely something we plan to continue. And it just, you know, it is, it takes effort to be vigilant
24:39
and to keep encouraging. But we've got such a wonderful team that really does want to infuse story into everything
24:47
I always say that it doesn't matter what your job is on the team. Everyone's a storyteller
24:52
And if we do that and if we're conscious about it and we try really hard
24:56
then that story will just get, it'll just feel natural to you as you're playing the game
25:00
It'll just feel like the story is embedded everywhere around you. And that's the ultimate goal
25:05
And we keep trying to get better at doing that. All right. That's a good answer
25:09
I love you saying that. However, since we've only got a few minutes left
25:14
just between you, me, Josh, Joe, and the many people who will listen to this recording
25:18
so not a lot of people. Room Carver is totally the premise, right
25:22
I'm sorry, who? No, I didn't think so. Maldraxus is a giant corpse
25:27
It's a dead person. We're going to find out who that person was, right? Big dead guy
25:32
A big dead guy. I'm digging up bones, there's big hairs growing out of it
25:36
Come on, man. Well, you know, it, well, it is part of the story. of Maldraxus that the realm itself, and the other realms of the Shadalands for that matter
25:44
kind of manifest what they need to do the job that is put to them. And so in Maldraxus
25:51
you've got this immortal army that's supposed to be the best of the best. And so the land
25:56
itself gives them what they need in order to create their necropolis and their fortresses and
26:04
all of that kind of stuff. замечers of goo that they have for a reason. It's all there for a reason
26:09
Okay, I know, but I did want to at least ask a few of these questions just because if I don't ask them, people can be like, why didn't he ask about that
26:16
Oh, yeah, we'll hear about it later, I'm sure. Yeah. I do want to talk real fast with the room carver though
26:22
When you came up with the idea of using that, because you just talked before about how corrupted gear helps tell the story, the whole idea of the room carver's memories having been ripped out of him and using that not just as a power element
26:35
Like you get that to make your legendary. You're essentially infusing your legendaries with the memories of the room carver
26:42
You're making his memories into weapons and armor in this case. We haven't actually
26:47
but not making weapons at the moment. You're helping him too, Matt. You're bringing back those memories to him to give him a little piece of himself
26:53
So come on, it's not that selfish. I'm not just saying it's selfish. It is selfish, but whatever
26:58
But what it gives me is you get a chance you can use this to tell us about him through our gameplay
27:04
Like you go and you do a dungeon, you get the piece. you bring it back, at least in one case, you get to see an interaction between the jailer
27:11
and the room carver through these memories. You get to see that character and action
27:18
And that's the kind of thing I'm at. I'm curious as to like, do you ever sit down and just like you have to work with the people
27:23
who do, you know, the design of the game to come up with, okay, how are we going to mechanically
27:28
represent this story? You use corruption as an example. How did you guys decide to use corruption to make that a storytelling element
27:35
How did you work together to get that done? Well, it really can come up in a variety of different ways
27:43
Like in the case of corrupted year, I think it was one of the itemization folks who was
27:48
like pitching that as, oh, wouldn't it be cool if we did this? And then, you know, we're like, yeah, what if we did that then
27:55
And it's like, you know, you always hear about us being so iterative
28:00
And that's true. And that's, we iterate on ideas. And so one person comes up at the core of something
28:05
and then five other people find ways to plus that up. And we're always trying to find the best versions of that thing
28:12
So in the case of the room carver and the legendaries, I don't remember all the details
28:19
I'm sure that we knew that we wanted to do legendaries. And as we were just talking, getting together, having meetings
28:25
talking about what would be a great way to tie that into the world and into the characters
28:31
I think we had this character that we wanted. you know, that was going to be a part of the story
28:37
And it just kind of naturally started dovetailing. And we found those connections. And so it really just amounts to people who all want to tell the best story
28:46
whether it's through quests or cutscenes or systems. And then just getting us, you know, virtually in a room together
28:54
in the case of shadow lens development. But really, we just have so much energy and so much passion
29:00
when we can just vibe off one another and help one another that way
29:05
All right. Joe, you got anything else? I mean, there's so many things I could ask, but I don't think..
29:11
Yeah, I want to ask for Toronto. Do you think, yeah, you think you'll tell us about Toronto if I ask what Toronto
29:15
I'm assuming, and I'm hopeful that we have more coming up with her. Yes, please, please
29:20
I can tell you that, yes, there is... The Toronto story is not done
29:25
And, you know, we... Again, that's one of those characters that endured a lot in Battle for Azaroth
29:32
and we've shown her, you know, leaping into the maw, if you've played the Ardenwield campaign
29:40
you've seen that she's on the hunt for Silvanus. And, you know, I don't want to give any spoilers
29:48
but Taranda's got some great moments coming up. But, you know, she's facing danger, too
29:53
that power that she took on, you know, in the name of claiming vengeance for her people
29:59
We've seen examples in the game of how that power has a terrible cost
30:04
And you've met other night warriors who similarly were given that power
30:08
and you know that they did not meet a happy end. So we care a lot about Taranda
30:15
So hopefully that we can help her come to terms not only with this power that she has
30:23
and how to deal with that, but also how can she sate this thirst for vengeance
30:29
that is consuming her in ways just like the, the power of the night warrior is
30:37
Matt, any last questions? No, I think we're done. I don't want to
30:40
I basically would be just going like I'm chipmunk asking questions and we have to stop at
30:45
some point. But I think that butts us up right to our time
30:50
Steve, I want to thank you very, very much for taking the time to talk with us today
30:55
And, you know, dealing with some of our weird, weirdness as we move through this
31:00
Well, I want to thank you. And, you know, there's a lot of other podcasters and content creators out there, too
31:08
But, like, I always appreciate the thoughtfulness that you and your listeners, when they send it in questions, it's really wonderful
31:15
And, again, it's, you know, we work on these things so far in advance
31:20
And when they come out, you never know for sure what the reactions will be
31:25
Will things people pick up on the things that you would hope they would? or what new things will they discover that you didn't realize would be there
31:32
And it's just so gratifying to listen to shows like yours that help us, you know
31:38
realize what's connecting with our audience. And it helps our story going forward. So thank you
31:43
Well, you're very welcome for that. And thank you. All right. Let's do this again sometime
31:48
Yeah. Now you get to be, next time we do it, you get to be like the Wanda vision writers watching people
31:52
you know, because we'll give you all of our crazy fan theories. We didn't this time
31:57
They're there. I'm sitting there going, oh, I forgot to ask about this
32:02
Well, good. It'll give us a chance to chat down the road. Indeed
32:06
I'm looking forward to future chats. But thank you very much
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