Up next in 10
This week on the Tavern Watch Podcast, we discuss some exciting news for fans of all things that go bump in the night: a new Vampire: the Masquerade project was teased for GenCon 2026, including a commitment to "human-created" art, as opposed to AI slop. Elsewhere, several of the new and returning Darklords from D&D's upcoming Ravenloft book were revealed, including an all-out stat block for Cthulhu, Darklord of Innsmouth -- does this mean all of Massachusetts is in the Domains of Dread?
We also discuss a sorely lacking element of today's tabletop RPG landscape, deeply in-depth city or area guides that don't also feel the need to be an adventure module in and of themselves, and discuss graceful retirements of intellectual property and the community as stewards, in the case of Modiphius ceasing development on Achtung! Cthulhu and turning it over to the community (along with a big bundle of official art for use in your products). Also, are the marbles in Jelle's Marble League sentient? Are they actually capable of making decisions? You make the call. (No, I don't know what this has to do with tabletop either.)
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0:03
[music]
0:11
[music]
0:16
[music]
0:22
[music]
0:29
Well That traveler, welcome to the
0:32
tavern. Did you know that this magical
0:34
place is where more than half of
0:36
history's greatest adventures have
0:38
begun?
0:40
Before those adventurers took their
0:42
first steps, they watched and calculated
0:44
who would join their party.
0:47
See that barbarian over there? He hails
0:50
from the frozen lands. Strong, mighty,
0:52
and full of wisdom. I've closed many a
0:55
nights with that one. They call
0:58
themselves Matt Rossy.
1:00
To the right over there, that woman
1:02
working on her tinkers and mechanical
1:04
devices, an artificer of great skill.
1:08
She is cunning and quick, and I've seen
1:10
her bounce a fair share of narrative
1:11
wells out of here before I could even
1:13
step out from behind the bar. She's
1:15
known as Liz Harper.
1:18
And that gentleman by the hearth with a
1:20
pile of tomes. Rumor has it that he is a
1:23
powerful wizard full of arcane secrets.
1:26
But around here, most just call him the
1:27
professor. Me? I know them to be Phil or
1:33
me. I'm Joe Perez. I'll be your Tavern
1:36
Keeper. Welcome to Tavern Watch.
1:41
Hello and welcome to Tavern Watch, a
1:43
round table free form discussion about
1:45
well, tabletop games. I am one of your
1:48
hosts, Joe Perez, and joining me on this
1:51
adventurous journey as always is our
1:53
editor-in chief, Liz Harper. How you
1:54
doing, Liz? Howdy.
1:56
>> Uh in the corner over there who uh we're
1:59
very happy is here and remembered that
2:01
you know outside of the adventure in
2:03
Tavern that there are things that we
2:05
need to talk about and uh is is Phil
2:07
Olrich who's been away for a few weeks.
2:10
>> I am I've been uh I've been I've been
2:12
out. I'm back. It's uh it's good to be
2:15
back.
2:15
>> And last but not least uh shoring up our
2:19
battle defenses, Matt Rossy. How you
2:21
doing, Matt? Um, I'm being like my life
2:24
has been so much my life this week in in
2:27
not a terrible way or anything. Just
2:29
things happened that really only ever
2:32
seem to happen to me of everyone I know.
2:35
Um, so [clears throat] yeah, I'm okay.
2:36
But yeah, that was that was just a a
2:39
wild experience yesterday. I might talk
2:41
about it, I might not.
2:42
>> Yeah. Uh well, we are going to go ahead
2:44
and talk about a plethora of things, but
2:46
as always, friends, we're going to start
2:48
with what is on our tabletops.
2:51
So, since Phil wasn't here last week,
2:53
I'm going to go ahead and give him the
2:55
honor/sacrificial land spot of going
2:58
first. What are you reading? What are
3:00
you playing? What are you looking
3:01
forward to? And any content creators you
3:03
want to shill for? Uh let's see. So, uh
3:07
as mentioned, I was uh as I was I was
3:10
away for a week or so. I was actually on
3:12
a nice uh relaxing beach vacation. Uh
3:15
also ended up taking a uh you know ended
3:18
up taking sort of a a a vacation from
3:20
tabletop, but it never stays that way
3:21
because while I was on vacation, I
3:24
finally read uh the first book of the
3:27
Carl series. Uh and now I [sighs] really
3:31
want to look into the RPG of that
3:33
because just because of the things I've
3:34
heard about how it integrates some
3:36
really interesting stuff uh from the
3:38
series, the actual game. Um, so I've
3:41
been kind of looking into that. Um, I'm
3:44
also uh Son of Oak has uh sent multiple
3:49
notifications. They are getting ready to
3:50
lock shipping addresses from the uh
3:52
Legend in the Mist Kickstarter from last
3:54
year. So, I'll soon have that physical
3:57
book in my hands, that giant hefty tome
3:59
that I can defend my home with if need
4:01
be. Um, [laughter] but I've been looking
4:04
at, you know, reading that again in PDF
4:06
format since, uh, we're looking at
4:08
running it in the near future. Something
4:10
to there. Um, no new content creators
4:14
that I necessarily want to plug right
4:15
now, but uh, yeah, just looking forward
4:17
to, uh, having, uh, having 2025's most
4:20
anticipated RPG, their words, not mine,
4:23
uh, in my hot in my hot little hands.
4:26
>> Yeah. Excellent. Matt, what do you got
4:28
for us? Um, I've actually been still
4:31
reading Paragons, uh, because I got that
4:34
last week and I'm still kind of messing
4:35
around with it. I've also been reading
4:37
Legends of the Mist because we're going
4:38
to be playing that and I had a character
4:39
concept. So, I've been reading the book
4:40
and I was like, "My character concept
4:42
doesn't fit this game in the slightest.
4:44
Uh, I'll tell it as a joke and then
4:46
people were talking me seriously and I
4:47
had to be like, no, no, I I I'm not. I'm
4:50
just playing a normal person, you know,
4:52
normal in quotes." Uh, but regardless,
4:55
you know, pretty pretty I I do
4:57
understand the game now. I have read it
4:59
and I understand it. Um, I've mostly
5:01
been playing Diablo I and watching the
5:04
Marble League. Have you guys watched
5:05
Marble League?
5:06
>> Oh, Jell's Marble League. Yeah, quite a
5:08
bit.
5:08
>> Yeah, I've been watching the heck out of
5:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
5:13
>> It is so easy to act like the Marbles
5:15
are making decisions.
5:17
It's [laughter] like the fiction that
5:19
the marbles are like athletes and
5:22
they're actually like, "Whoa, that was a
5:24
mistake in concentration." And I'm like,
5:25
Matt, I part of my brain's going, it's
5:28
gravity. The the marbles don't have free
5:30
will.
5:31
>> The marble in his that marble at his
5:33
focus slip.
5:34
>> Yeah. The one next the next part of me
5:36
is like that marble. He must he'd been
5:38
training all month to get here.
5:39
[laughter]
5:40
It's like we were watching it and they
5:42
have this thing where they had like
5:43
we're watching one of the older race
5:45
episodes. They have the conveyor belt
5:47
thing that grabs the marbles and and
5:48
lifts them up so they can be dropped,
5:51
you know, to keep the race going
5:52
because, you know, marbles actually
5:54
don't have their own propulsion. So,
5:55
they were I was watching as they did it
5:57
and this was an older episode and they
6:00
used like these pointy jagged Legoy
6:03
things and I'm watching as is like if
6:05
this was a human race, you'd be riding
6:07
to your death and your corpse would get
6:10
taken up to the top and then like oh my
6:12
god, this has to be a role playing game.
6:15
Yeah, it
6:15
>> where people are like forced into this
6:17
ball that they have to like try to win
6:19
this race and avoid the spikes on the
6:21
escalator on the way up. I don't know. I
6:23
just I'm losing my mind. The Marble
6:25
League is amazing. Uh I
6:27
>> the announcer does a really good job of
6:29
of sucking you in though. So like the
6:31
the creator of it like really does a
6:33
really good job of making you like
6:35
>> you're tricking your brain into rooting
6:36
for marbles. Not just that, he also does
6:39
this amazing thing where he asks a
6:41
question just as the event is happening
6:44
on screen so that he can go like this,
6:47
you know, can Mellow Yellow pull this
6:49
one out? No. [laughter] Just immediately
6:52
answers with a resounding no because
6:54
they obviously just didn't. [laughter]
6:57
It was just like, oh wow, it reminded me
6:59
so much of old paranoia. Remember
7:02
paranoia? It reminded me of that a lot.
7:04
>> Yeah.
7:05
>> So anyway, that's me. I could keep
7:06
babbling, but there's other people on
7:08
the show. Uh, Liz,
7:10
>> man, you know, every time we do a Tavern
7:13
Watch podcast, I talk about how well I'd
7:16
be reading the Fall in London tabletop
7:18
game if I had it. It I've I've I've
7:22
really made this a habit. But now
7:24
they've sent out preview copies of the
7:26
book. So it's in front of me except for
7:29
all of the pages that say redacted by
7:31
the Order of the Ministry of Public
7:33
Decency, which is
7:36
but I have a lot of it. I have a lot of
7:38
this book and I'm starting to go through
7:40
it and I'm I'm very excited. I'd like to
7:43
play it except I think this is missing
7:46
some crucial parts that I would need to
7:48
play it. So, I'm I'm excited and also
7:51
disappointed and also excited all
7:53
bundled together. I have just been
7:55
looking forward to this book and I I
7:58
still don't know when I'll have an
7:59
actual finished book, but we're getting
8:01
closer.
8:01
>> I'm just exciting.
8:04
>> Exactly. Exactly. I am I'm all over the
8:07
place over here.
8:08
>> Fair enough. Uh me, not only have I been
8:11
playing for legends in the mist, uh
8:13
because it has athe' in there, um as we
8:15
were reminded earlier, uh I did actually
8:18
find something that squeaked through my
8:21
radar the other week, uh or actually
8:24
last month, uh that I just picked up and
8:27
started reading through again because I
8:28
can't help myself or reading through and
8:30
I can't help myself, which is Night City
8:32
2045. Uh, so their CD, uh, CD Project or
8:38
Cyber Punk Red, uh, is, you know, a game
8:43
that Matt and I have talked about
8:44
possibly running at some point and or
8:46
playing in. We've we've had, uh, sort of
8:48
a a, you know, we love Cyberpunk. You
8:51
can go back and listen to several other
8:52
podcasts about it. Um, and I'm surprised
8:55
that this book took so long to come out,
8:58
and technically it's not even out yet.
9:00
Only the PDF is. Um, it's a source book
9:04
uh that's pretty chunky. It's a 300page
9:06
source book uh that gives you all the
9:09
geography, government, logistics of
9:11
Night City. Gives you a complete history
9:13
of the city, information on citizen,
9:15
citizenship, laws, uh transportation
9:18
system, services, utilities, and media.
9:20
It's basically your guide to running the
9:24
city. Uh, and because it takes place in
9:26
2045,
9:28
uh, which is where the the current
9:30
incarnation of the physical book takes
9:32
place, I believe. Uh, it's been a while
9:34
since I've cracked open the, uh,
9:35
Cyberpunk Red.
9:36
>> It's where the main rules do. Yeah.
9:38
>> Yeah. Um, so it's all before the the
9:41
events of the game of Cyberpunk 2077.
9:43
Um, but it also gives you like all all
9:46
of the street level factions, gives you
9:48
access to like 40 plus gangs, a bunch of
9:51
different criminal organizations,
9:53
uh, a bunch of different security
9:54
companies. Uh, gives you a district by
9:57
district breakdown of all of the 24
10:00
districts of Night City, um, with, you
10:03
know, who's in charge, what who lives
10:05
there, uh, major events that happened
10:08
recently. Uh, it gives you all sorts of
10:11
like things for like locations, stores,
10:13
clinics, gang headquarters, corporate
10:15
fortresses, corporate safe houses, mega
10:17
buildings. Uh, and it has a ton of
10:20
really gorgeous maps. Uh, and then it
10:22
gives you a bunch of stat blocks for
10:24
NPCs, uh, for like gang members,
10:28
criminal enforcers, corporate security,
10:30
and all the way down to everyday people.
10:32
It's the It's something that is
10:36
absolutely beautiful to see. And I wish
10:40
more game like providers did exactly
10:44
this. So like going and running
10:47
Cyberpunk games now are infinitely
10:49
easier because as somebody who's running
10:51
the game, you have access to literally
10:53
everything at your fingertips in a
10:55
300page book, which sounds like it would
10:58
be atrocious to go through. PDF is well
11:01
documented, has a bunch of hyperlinks.
11:03
It's made for e-readers. Uh it works
11:06
absolutely wonderful for it. So it's
11:07
really, really cool. I really would like
11:10
to see other game companies do the exact
11:12
same thing for major cities. And I'm
11:15
looking at you, Dungeons and Dragons,
11:17
because
11:19
the cities in Dn D are some of the most
11:22
neglected spaces in the books. And
11:26
when's the last time we got a deep dive
11:29
of like any major city that like you
11:33
know Balders's Gate Neverwinter
11:35
>> say any major city not named Boulders's
11:37
Gate
11:38
>> and even then the Boulder the Balders's
11:40
Gate source material does not go this
11:41
far in depth.
11:42
>> Uh well I say that yeah they took up
11:46
half of uh they took up probably the
11:48
front half of um the set into a
11:50
verurnest to provide about half this
11:51
level of detail. Yeah.
11:53
>> Yeah. which I it should just have its
11:55
own like thing it to me, right? Um, so I
11:59
guess I'll posit a question to you guys.
12:01
Are there any other like major cities
12:03
and any RPGs that you would love to see
12:05
get this type of treatment?
12:06
>> Greyhawk.
12:07
>> Well, I I would settle for a Greyhawk
12:10
book at this point. [laughter]
12:11
>> Yeah, but the city of Greyhawk, the free
12:13
city of Greyhawk was the best part of
12:15
the entire Greyhawk setting.
12:17
>> It really was.
12:18
>> And here's the problem. I don't think
12:21
the people playing D and D today even
12:23
know much about Greyhawk or know that it
12:24
existed. There's a there's some leftover
12:27
stuff that's in the Forgotten Realms
12:29
just because uh that comes from it, but
12:32
most of it
12:34
>> it's just it's just it's, you know, old
12:36
old beeps
12:38
>> like me are the ones who go on about it.
12:40
That being said, um
12:43
the problem is that I look at past
12:45
product and there's a lot of stuff that
12:47
Wizards of the Coast and its predecessor
12:50
TSR did with Dungeons and Dragons that
12:52
you don't see nowadays. They did a free
12:54
city of Lancmar book as in Fafford and
12:57
the Grey Mouser,
12:59
the whole place. And it was extremely
13:02
detailed with like maps of every
13:04
district, uh, like adventure locations
13:07
for this city as a whole, places people
13:11
might just go, not even to have
13:13
adventures, just, you know, hey, you
13:15
know, would you like to go to the tavern
13:16
where nothing adventurous ever happens?
13:18
Here it [laughter] is. Um, here's the
13:21
street where the gods of Lankmar live.
13:23
Not not the temples of gods in Lankmar.
13:26
These are the gods of Lankmar. They're
13:27
actually like zombie monsters that will
13:29
kill anybody, including the worshippers
13:31
of other gods if they do anything to
13:33
hurt the city. All that stuff's there.
13:35
And in terms of modern stuff, honestly,
13:39
I don't, you know, Sha from
13:43
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
13:43
>> I mean, that's a city that you could
13:45
bring into other places or make it like
13:47
I I feel like they threw they had that
13:48
whole Stricks Haven book and they threw
13:50
away a really good option. They've
13:52
actually thrown away several really good
13:54
options for having a city that isn't in
13:57
any particular setting that you could
13:59
have your characters adventure in. Uh
14:01
the Radiant Citadel book,
14:03
>> yeah,
14:04
>> was perfect for this and had tons of
14:06
detail, but they just never did anything
14:08
with it again. The thing about the both
14:11
the Radiant Citadel and the Stricks
14:12
Haven book is that they were primarily
14:14
adventure books. So, they're primarily
14:16
focused on sending people on specific
14:18
adventures that are set in or around
14:20
this setting. So, it had both of them
14:22
had
14:23
>> Yeah, both of them had some setting
14:25
detail, but not a lot. Um, another one
14:27
in that vein is Candle Keep Mysteries,
14:29
which I liked a lot because it's like
14:31
this whole setting is a giant library,
14:32
but it's little adventures that start in
14:35
the library and not a lot of details in
14:38
the library. I do have to also say that
14:41
um Green Ronin did this with their
14:43
Freeport setting uh the city of Freeport
14:46
which was a pirate mess town and it they
14:49
have they put out in addition to all the
14:51
adventures that are set in and around
14:52
it. They did put out a really huge book
14:55
for both Pathfinder and uh fifth edition
14:58
that previously was a third edition
14:59
book. Uh, so they there there are people
15:02
doing it, but you know, I just I I just
15:05
would love to see Greyhawk come back or
15:07
heck, Mistara. I mean, and the best part
15:09
about Mistara is you could do Caram
15:11
Mikos, the setting everyone started in
15:13
back in the 80s and nobody ever wanted
15:15
to see again. Um, but yeah, I I there's
15:18
a lot of stuff. Oddly enough, the best
15:21
product I've ever seen for a city in
15:23
terms of like, you know, what you're
15:25
talking about was a Marvel Superheroes
15:27
RPG book called uh New York, New York
15:30
that came out in 1985 and was basing.
15:33
>> Yeah, except it was Marvel's New York.
15:36
[snorts]
15:36
>> So, they actually had the exact location
15:38
of the Baxter building and Avengers
15:41
base. And
15:42
>> I still feel like that's cheating
15:43
because they had already established all
15:44
of that in the comics. They literally
15:46
printed an omni like a a thing in like
15:49
the late 90s that was just that. Anyway,
15:52
I get you
15:53
>> it was but it I think I think it it's
15:57
maybe speaks a little bit more to me
15:58
about like and and I think Liz sort of
16:01
hit it on the head, right? Like Stricks
16:02
Haven is a fantastic setting, but the
16:05
book was released as an adventure book
16:07
and trying to get you out and doing
16:08
things. And it literally could have been
16:11
two books. It could have been two
16:12
separate products, one for the adventure
16:14
and one for just the setting, and you
16:17
still would have not been able to c
16:19
capture everything for it. And I kind of
16:22
feel like, and maybe this is the monkey
16:24
paw about to curl when I make this this
16:26
statement, Dn D is right for both of
16:29
them. And I think there was a a problem
16:31
where in fifth edition when it was doing
16:34
all of these adventure settings, it
16:37
would mention these cities, but because
16:39
they were primarily adventure books, you
16:41
wouldn't get the level of detail that
16:43
maybe I want. Uh, and I know I'm not the
16:45
only one. I know that that that's a lot
16:47
of people like I've heard this a lot too
16:50
cuz I remember the old source books. I
16:52
remember second edition, third edition.
16:55
Um later on during first editions like
16:58
uh you know when we got like books
17:00
devoted specifically to like entire
17:04
heritages or entire cities or entire
17:06
just regions like Forgotten Realms was
17:09
broken down into region. um like I I
17:12
missed that because one of the things
17:14
that I thought was cool is as somebody
17:16
who likes to come up with adventures of
17:18
their own is I want all of the other
17:21
details and stuff because then it
17:23
remains consistent and then let's say
17:25
I'm writing for a group of players that
17:27
have adventured in Forgotten Realms
17:29
before and you know I am not necessarily
17:33
using the same adventure book if I'm
17:35
using the same like setting places or
17:38
buildings or cities and and region like
17:42
specific stuff that another person is
17:45
doing. It becomes instantly familiar to
17:46
the people playing at the table and
17:48
makes it easier to sort of get into the
17:50
adventure as far as like I wouldn't mind
17:53
if they were like to release an Atlas of
17:55
Atlas and then also do an adventure book
17:59
for like Dark Sun, right? Um, I wouldn't
18:03
mind if they did that with Greyhawk
18:05
where they like, "Here's the city of
18:06
Greyhawk. Here's a full detailed gadget
18:09
is here for it, and then here's an
18:10
adventure." Like, I wouldn't mind that.
18:12
And the same thing like you said with
18:13
Candle Keep. Like, they could go into an
18:15
entire thing of just
18:17
>> like what's in Candle Keep, what NPCs
18:20
you'll find, and not just have these
18:22
adventure hooks and then still have the
18:23
adventure hook book, right?
18:25
>> Yeah. And I mean, if you look back,
18:29
>> go on. I say this is one case I think
18:32
where third party uh third party
18:35
publishers have stepped up in a way that
18:37
I don't think uh Wizards of the Coast
18:39
necessarily has. Um I'm going to call it
18:41
a product on the DM's Guild uh
18:43
Elminster's Candle Keep Companion.
18:45
>> It's so good.
18:47
>> Yeah. If you want details about like
18:49
what's in like what's in Candle Keef,
18:52
who are some NPCs here, what are some
18:54
like social quirks that come from living
18:57
in a library all the time and like
18:59
[clears throat] walking around chanting
19:01
a living prophecy uh from one of the
19:03
only prophets in, you know, on Fyun?
19:05
Like what's with the giant dragon that
19:08
lives under the that lives under
19:09
Candlekeep? Like that kind of stuff is
19:11
in that is in that um PDF.
19:14
>> Same thing with Neon. Sorry. Liz,
19:18
>> a lot of this stuff is Ed Greenwood. I
19:20
mean, and you know, if you look on DM's
19:23
Guild or Drive-Through RPG, you find a
19:25
ton of books uh that are older D and D
19:28
books, you know, like second edition
19:31
kind of stuff like uh Vololo's Guide to
19:34
Water Deep, Volo's Guide to the Sword
19:36
Coast, all of this stuff done by I think
19:39
a lot of it's Ed Greenwood and just
19:42
really digging into the setting, which
19:44
it does feel like Dn D has moved away
19:47
from that and it's focused on books that
19:50
are rules and books that are adventures,
19:53
>> which is part of the reason I think we
19:54
were all kind of uh looking forward to
19:56
the uh now delayed and I haven't heard
19:59
anything more about uh series of books
20:01
that Ed Greenwood was going to do
20:02
because it was touching on the Dale
20:04
Lands, a specific portion of Fairyoon
20:07
that used to be kind of the center of it
20:09
and that they've gotten away from as you
20:11
know uh fifth edition on has kind of
20:12
pushed focus the setting over towards
20:15
the Sword Coast and Balders's Gate and
20:18
um
20:18
>> yeah, but let's be fair. The 10 towns
20:20
were really the center of of the uh
20:23
forgotten realms until they put out the
20:25
Icewindale
20:26
>> books and then they moved everything up
20:28
to the 10 towns of Icewindale.
20:32
>> I hear I hear there's some I hear
20:34
there's a dark elf who's pretty popular
20:35
up there.
20:38
>> Yeah, I may or may not have one sitting
20:40
in my shop. Who knows? [laughter]
20:41
>> It's a bit of a tangent, but it's
20:43
something I actually used in a in a
20:44
campaign I ran. Do you guys remember the
20:47
vocalization of the Acewendale video
20:49
game?
20:50
>> Uh, no.
20:51
>> One of the actors who does the narration
20:54
is David Ogden Styers, who you may
20:57
remember from MASH as uh as major. I
21:00
forget his last name actually, but he
21:01
was the major who replaced uh the evil
21:04
major and he was more of a stuffed stuck
21:06
up one, but he was a good foil, but he
21:08
wasn't a villain. Um, he's done a lot of
21:11
things. He was the guy on Star Trek the
21:13
Next Generation who decided to like let
21:16
himself die because his people wanted to
21:18
kill him even though he was trying to
21:19
save their planet because he was all too
21:21
old and now they had the kill you
21:23
ceremony and Lana Troy was mad because
21:25
she was in love with him. That guy he's
21:27
actually amazing actor.
21:30
>> I now know exactly who you're talking
21:31
about. Winchester.
21:33
>> Yes, Major Winchester. Thank you. That
21:35
was him. Uh but in the game uh Icewind
21:38
Dale he played the narrative character
21:41
who does the beginning and end
21:42
introduction to the game and he's the
21:46
first part the the beginning he sounds
21:48
like just your average sage telling you
21:51
about this adventure in Icewindale and
21:53
the end he's like and so the heroes
21:54
defeated you know so and so and banished
21:57
him once more but I'll return and you
22:00
suddenly you realize David Ogensty is
22:02
just playing the villain and has been
22:04
the whole time the by [laughter]
22:05
narrating the game for you was the
22:07
villain. I've done that. I've stolen
22:09
that for use in games. Like at one point
22:11
I even did it to you guys. Remember I
22:13
told you guys that you were the bad guys
22:15
at one point?
22:16
>> Yeah.
22:16
>> And you were like, "What? What's
22:17
happening?" And it turned out that that
22:19
they were made copies of you and had the
22:21
copies commit crimes.
22:23
>> Yeah.
22:24
>> That I got that from this. [laughter] So
22:26
I just wanted to throw that out there.
22:27
Also, I'm David Augustus is dead
22:30
unfortunately. He amazing actor. Sorry,
22:32
sir. Uh, but regardless, really I loved
22:35
that they I I didn't like the the the
22:38
Dales.
22:39
>> The Dale stuff was always kind of weird
22:40
to me. I liked the 10 towns. It was much
22:43
more approachable. Um, I think that's
22:45
possibly because Elminister didn't live
22:47
there.
22:47
>> Yeah. I think that that Yeah. Yeah.
22:49
That's a big part of it cuz Elminster is
22:51
a
22:52
>> He needs to be out on Walkabout if
22:54
you're going to really do anything
22:55
there.
22:55
>> Yeah. all these like all these people he
22:57
knew and like there's like the sh would
23:00
show up and I'm like ah there's too many
23:02
people that are way too powerful like
23:05
why are you here if I why am I dealing
23:07
with the orcs and you can wave a hand at
23:09
the orcs and they'd be gone
23:10
>> and don't get me wrong like there's an
23:12
element of of that's fun to to that as
23:15
well like when you get to a point where
23:16
you're powerful enough that you're like
23:18
rubbing elbows with like uh folks like
23:20
that like one of my my my buddy Dan when
23:23
he ran a game that I wasn't technically
23:25
supposed to survive the my guest
23:27
appearance in and then wound up becoming
23:28
a player
23:30
>> that that that that my naked halfling
23:32
barbarian cavalier uh that was the
23:35
ultimate tank. Yes. Um when he didn't
23:39
die like he was supposed to. Uh I
23:42
couldn't keep playing him so I made a
23:43
new character and because everybody's
23:45
like, "We like having you around. Why
23:46
don't you play?" And then three years go
23:47
by. Um, but we got to a point where like
23:50
we're rubbing elbows with like the black
23:52
staff of water deep and like we're going
23:54
on personal missions for it because we
23:56
were just that broken and that powered
23:59
up and but we like got to that point,
24:02
right? Like
24:04
>> it's just it's hard to justify doing
24:06
that when you're level one.
24:08
>> Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
24:09
>> Yeah.
24:10
>> And like part of that Sorry, go ahead,
24:12
Liz. I do want to say I think Wizards of
24:14
the Coast actually tried to do something
24:16
kind of along this line of world
24:18
building in the Adventures in Fyun book
24:21
where it talked about different settings
24:22
in Fyun. And when it was initially
24:25
described, it's like they were going to
24:27
give you settings that were, oh, here's
24:30
a good place to have like a political
24:31
intrigue kind of campaign and talk about
24:33
different regions that fit different
24:35
sorts of campaigns. And I think the
24:37
final result was more of an adventure
24:39
book and less of a setting book. So, I
24:43
think an attempt was made, but it didn't
24:46
go back to that sort of world building
24:48
that they used to do more of.
24:50
>> I will star for effort.
24:52
>> I will say there is a a game system and
24:56
game company out there that actually
24:57
does a really banger job of this. Um,
25:00
which is the World of Darkness setting.
25:03
Um, so the reason that it I think it
25:07
does so well is because it's so urban
25:09
based that every time you do something,
25:12
whether it's an adventure book or a
25:14
campaign book, um, it's it's very
25:17
specific because it tells you like key
25:20
locations and it may be a little bit
25:22
cheating because it's based off of real
25:24
world cities like you know,
25:27
>> uh, a shout out to
25:29
>> I was going to say jump in here. Go
25:30
ahead. I I to jump in here because I did
25:32
work for them. Um I so I know something
25:35
about how they do this. Um they send you
25:38
a photos guide.
25:39
>> Yeah.
25:40
>> They tell you, you know, go read a photo
25:41
guide yourself with the place actually.
25:44
And now now that you've done that, now
25:46
that you familiarize yourself, make beep
25:49
up. Make things up now.
25:51
>> Um the thing I did
25:53
>> spooky.
25:54
>> I remember the thing I did for them. Uh
25:56
it was for Wraith and it was actually
25:58
Wraith the Oblivion and it was their
25:59
specters book. It was a special
26:02
crowdfunded thing. They got enough money
26:03
that they had to do this book. And the
26:06
part I wrote, one of the things I wrote
26:07
for it was the Zone Rouge, which is a
26:10
real these are real places. There are
26:12
places in France to this day, as in 2026
26:16
that you still can't live in because
26:18
they were just so utterly destroyed by
26:20
World War I French warfare and gas
26:22
warfare and all the shelling. And it's
26:25
like you go out into the field and you
26:27
will trip on landmine. They might not go
26:28
off
26:29
>> but you will trip on them or you will
26:31
find like the mantle piece of a church
26:34
and that's it.
26:35
>> Rest of the town's gone.
26:37
>> And that's they tell you to look for.
26:39
That's the kind of thing they do. That's
26:40
why White Wolf before and you know on
26:44
you know the current group that's how
26:45
they do it. That's they deliberately try
26:48
to anchor it in what's known.
26:50
>> Yeah. And I want to I want to circle
26:52
back for some of our our listeners who
26:54
may not be old enough to know what a
26:55
Fodor's travel guide is. Um they are
26:59
there's always been a ton of like travel
27:01
guides for a bunch of different major
27:02
cities across the world and countries
27:04
and things like that. What makes the
27:06
photos travel guide uh like separate or
27:09
or a cut above a lot of them and which
27:11
is why they were used in this capacity
27:14
is because there was a high encyclopedic
27:17
focus on cultural overviews for the
27:19
citizens and so like again like what
27:23
Matt's saying like this is part of why
27:25
they're so good but it's also important
27:28
that they do this
27:30
um and it it it makes everything for
27:34
running these cities a lot more easier,
27:39
right? Um, and a shout out to a a friend
27:42
of ours who runs a very good World of
27:45
Darkness game online, which I will shill
27:47
as a content creator here because uh
27:50
he's basically my brother. Um, but
27:53
Nibbles and Dice does Philly by Night
27:55
and it is a fantastic game. And not only
27:58
is the source materials covered for it,
28:00
it's a city that he also happens to uh
28:03
you know live in. Um but it's everything
28:07
about it is real and tangible and down
28:10
to earth like going to locations, you
28:13
know, there's a there's a level of it
28:15
where like oh I know where that is and
28:17
then it's like have you ever gone to the
28:19
university at night? Like it stuff like
28:22
that. But they do a really really good
28:24
job of this with every city that they
28:27
put out even now. Um I still have a
28:30
bunch of the original World of Darkness
28:32
books uh that did all the stuff whether
28:34
it was uh you know Mage or Changelane or
28:37
>> Chicago you know what the the
28:39
>> Chicago was phenomenal for the 90s.
28:40
>> Chicago by Night and the at the same
28:42
time like Liz was talking before it's
28:44
like they set out to do the the world
28:46
book and then they had an adventure they
28:48
wanted to do as well and so they did
28:50
both in different books. Yeah.
28:52
>> And that's something I I don't I think
28:55
the the corporatization of role playing
28:58
games, especially Dungeons and Dragons,
28:59
as Hasbro now owns them, owns Wizards of
29:02
the Coast and thus owns them, you you
29:05
end up
29:07
I going back to like a long time ago
29:08
when said something the effect of uh
29:10
game companies that are owned by
29:12
corporations are notoriously riskaverse.
29:15
And if you look at the fate of TSR, it
29:19
game companies often don't make a ton of
29:21
cash. Uh it's rare for a game company to
29:25
be raking it in. Um Wizards of the Coast
29:29
was doing so and still is to a degree
29:31
because they had Magic to Gather it. And
29:33
then they owned Pokemon for a while.
29:34
They owned the rights to Pokemon. So
29:37
they could make games that sold that
29:40
funded their ability to go buy what was
29:42
effectively a losing proposition.
29:43
Dungeons and Dragons and TSR was a
29:46
losing proposition. This was not making
29:49
money. They bought it because they loved
29:50
it. And then they're like, maybe we can
29:52
change it. We can save it. And to a
29:54
degree, they did. I mean, you can't
29:56
really argue that it's not doing better
29:57
now than it was when it got sold. But it
30:00
does mean that you're not going to see
30:02
what you used to see with White Wolf.
30:04
>> Yeah. which part of the reason why I
30:06
bring this up is not only is it a a a
30:08
good topic and something that I've
30:10
personally enjoyed with a lot of the
30:11
recent releases, especially because uh
30:13
Onyx and uh through Renegade Studios,
30:16
which distributor publisher uh has been
30:19
doing a lot of really cool stuff with
30:21
it. Um we actually got some new news
30:23
that there's going to be a well two
30:26
things really were highlighted. won uh
30:29
at a I think it was what? Darkness con I
30:31
think is what we we we we said or
30:33
Darkcon.
30:35
>> Oh man, it's uh it was at darkness
30:37
emergent 2026.
30:38
>> Yeah, there we go. Uh
30:41
>> such a name. 10 out of 10.
30:43
>> Uh two things were were happened there.
30:45
One, we were teased that there's going
30:47
to be a new uh source book for Vampire
30:51
the Masquerade. Um which is not
30:54
surprising at all. Um, and one other
30:58
thing that they mentioned was that
30:59
there's going to be a strong commitment
31:01
to human-made work. And it sounds goofy.
31:06
Uh, and maybe for you that that seems
31:08
like, well, why are they going to do
31:10
that? Uh, but if you're listening to us,
31:12
you probably are on the same wavelength
31:14
of of us and everybody else. Uh, which
31:16
is AI generated imagery and content is
31:19
starting to uh not so so much creep, but
31:22
infect the tabletop space. uh and having
31:26
a company uh that is willing to you know
31:31
focus on that uh and make it so that you
31:35
know you're not going this AI route
31:38
you're not muddying the waters you're
31:41
focusing on human creators and human
31:43
content is amazing and we are going to
31:48
you know get more of this information
31:51
uh when Gen Con 2026 hits. Uh, I don't
31:54
know how you guys feel about this one,
31:56
but I'm I'm super excited and I'm I've
31:58
been throwing a lot of money at at the
32:00
World of Darkness books this this time
32:01
around.
32:02
>> I I don't see why you guys are so
32:04
negative on AI because me and my 67
32:06
friends who play every week thanks to
32:09
AI. Uh, we're playing a rousing game of
32:13
I don't know the box art to, you know,
32:15
World of Warcraft. I don't know what
32:17
they're doing. Um, but I'm sure it's
32:19
very good. No, I this whole like I think
32:23
the best metaphor I ever heard for it
32:25
and I'm going to steal the metaphor so
32:27
you're going to see how funny that is.
32:28
Um is when H bomber guy was talking
32:31
about it's a theft machine. It's just
32:34
it's what it does. It's a plagiarism
32:36
machine. It just digests everything you
32:38
give it and then regurgitates pieces of
32:41
it. It's and
32:43
>> yeah, did you hear about the doctor uh
32:45
who has a she's she's a content creator,
32:49
>> but she is a doctor. She has a new book
32:50
coming out uh about like listening to
32:52
your body and some AI company ripped off
32:56
her likeness uh put up a chatbot that
32:59
you can interact with to get medical
33:01
advice from and then offered her free
33:04
access to it. Uh but yeah, like it is
33:08
one of those things. is like AI is a
33:10
theft machine is is not just literal
33:13
truth. AI is a construct of terrible
33:16
nature in the current modern usage.
33:18
>> Yeah. And it's just it's it's for when
33:21
you're talking about role playing games
33:22
or really anything creative like any
33:25
writing fiction, doing art, what have
33:26
you. But especially with role playing
33:28
games, role playing is ultimately the
33:31
art. If you want to call it a
33:32
collaborative storytelling, you can.
33:34
Some people don't use it that way. Some
33:36
people use it as, you know, here's the
33:37
thin webbing on which I I put forth the
33:40
violence we're about to commit. But for
33:42
some people, it's it is actually
33:44
collaborative storytelling. Either way,
33:46
it's not something like I I just feel
33:50
like it's it's a misguided from the
33:52
beginning. The idea that AI they were
33:55
going to what was it? Um Chris Cox from
33:58
uh Hasbro said something about the rich
34:00
uh mine of Dungeons and Dragons
34:03
adventures that they were going to be
34:04
using. A a rich history to
34:07
>> mind rich history of content which my
34:09
god I hate when people reduce creative
34:12
endeavors to the word content
34:14
>> chills down my spine then they say like
34:16
you know as Liz pointed out you know to
34:20
mine
34:21
>> it reminded me of like old like an old
34:24
comic strip I think it was a penny
34:25
arcade I was like you know can we go
34:27
back to that thing I thought you no no I
34:28
like it now uh it was just the concept
34:31
of
34:32
>> I just I just picture you know a pie
34:34
pile of every D and D book that has ever
34:37
been written. Just pile them all up in a
34:40
room and start chopping them up with an
34:42
axe and you'd toss it everywhere. That's
34:44
what AI data mining would do to Dn D. It
34:48
would regurgitate stuff and it would add
34:52
nothing. It would be all the things
34:53
we've already read recombined. Take a D
34:57
and D book, put it in a blender.
35:01
It's
35:01
>> remember those funfetti things where
35:03
people would like make a comic out of
35:05
like little art pieces from other
35:06
things. At least they had to add new
35:08
dialogue. [laughter]
35:10
>> Like this is just just yikes. Yeah. I I
35:13
>> So uh I think it's safe to say we're all
35:15
fairly pro-human generated art for uh
35:19
for
35:19
>> I will say that if monkeys want to do
35:21
something or if they got a gorilla that
35:22
wants to paint some art for it or what
35:24
have you. If dolphins decide
35:26
[clears throat] they want to make some
35:26
games, I'm down. I don't I as long as
35:29
you're a sapient intelligence and that
35:31
includes if someone was to make a
35:32
machine that could actually think and
35:34
speak and had opinions, then by all
35:37
means let it do art. I I don't object to
35:40
machines making art. I reject to
35:42
non-sapient machines making art like
35:44
because they're not beings. Like I don't
35:47
>> I reject autocreate. I reject
35:48
autocorrect creating art.
35:50
>> Yes, exactly. That's basically what the
35:52
freaking thing is. like the people that
35:55
were like this has happened at least
35:56
three times that I know of and I know
35:58
it's probably happened more but at least
35:59
on three occasions now people have gone
36:01
to an AI and said write me up a legal
36:04
thing a a document or a contract or
36:08
>> many times
36:10
it's happening a lot
36:11
>> AI doesn't care if it's if it's actually
36:14
legal like they you know to the point
36:17
where they had to they they literally
36:18
had to order AI to stop talking about
36:20
goblins a while ago open source uh open
36:23
source 's current, you know, version of
36:25
chatbgt literally had to be told to stop
36:28
talking about goblins because it
36:29
wouldn't shut up about them. [snorts]
36:31
>> Just like us.
36:33
>> Yeah, but we we decided
36:34
>> just like us for real. [laughter]
36:37
>> Oh man, I I admit I this this is
36:40
interesting to me, but in kind of a
36:41
detached way because I have not actually
36:45
played a World of Darkness game since
36:49
>> I'm not going to name a year. I'm just
36:51
going to say since I was probably seven.
36:53
Um I I kind of fell out of that scene
36:57
for a very long time.
36:58
>> Like a week or two, I assume.
37:00
>> Yeah, just like a week or two ago. Um
37:02
because obviously I am underage and
37:04
barely qualified to be on this show.
37:05
[laughter]
37:06
Um I
37:09
uh yeah um but no, I think it's really I
37:13
I think it's cool. I like the way they I
37:15
like what they've done with it. I like
37:16
the way the current owners have taken a
37:19
lot of stands in favor of inclusivity al
37:22
as well that I really like and now just
37:25
going one step further to say hey also
37:27
our art is made by people which
37:30
shouldn't have to be a thing you have to
37:31
say but welcome to 2026 it is now um and
37:35
it's also a shot across the bow of
37:36
another major company who has been
37:38
caught with AI art sneaking into their
37:40
work Hasbro um so you know
37:44
>> really really cool that they're doing
37:45
this. Um, I'll look into it, but I
37:47
probably won't. Yeah, I don't
37:48
necessarily know that I'll pick it up
37:50
unless Joe wants to run a game of it for
37:51
us.
37:52
>> Well, I'm working on something else in
37:54
the background potentially where I will
37:55
not be the one running it.
37:57
>> Oh, okay.
37:57
>> So, we'll see how that goes.
37:58
>> I'm I'm here for it. I'm here for it.
38:01
>> I like mystery. I like mystery projects.
38:03
Okay.
38:04
>> I'm just I wasn't ever as big a fan of
38:06
Vampires Werewolf, but I liked all of
38:08
them. Um, I've played all of them. Yeah,
38:11
I think I think most people who interact
38:12
with World of Darkness have one that
38:14
kind of tickled their fancy more than
38:15
all the others. I know for me that was
38:16
Mage the Ascension.
38:18
>> I loved Mage. Oh my god, we could talk
38:20
about that all day. But I all I'm going
38:21
to do is is say to me that the the the
38:23
ultimate story of all the World of
38:26
Darkness games was the fact that I could
38:28
I when I picked up my original copy of
38:30
Vampire that I got like back in the
38:33
early 90s. Yes, that's guys. And and
38:35
keep in mind that the book itself had
38:37
come out in like the late 80s, but it
38:39
didn't get to Rhode Island until the the
38:41
early 90s. Um, I picked it up and I
38:44
looked at it for a second and I realized
38:45
they made this on Quark Express and I
38:48
know that it was a Performer Macintosh
38:50
that they laid it out on. I recognized
38:52
the program because it was the one we
38:54
were using in my graduate school program
38:56
to make our lit magazine. So, I'm
38:58
looking at this going, they made this in
39:00
their house. This was made in someone's
39:03
house. And I think in a way that's the
39:06
spirit that I'd rather see preserved
39:08
than the idea that we're gonna have, you
39:10
know, AI art and it's all going to be
39:12
super slick. And I know they had great
39:15
art in the old World of Darkness
39:17
products, but they didn't, it wasn't
39:18
never slick until they hit like a
39:21
certain point in their production. And
39:22
even then, it still looked like them.
39:25
So, if nothing else, keeping it human is
39:28
is a step in the right direction.
39:30
>> Agreed. Uh, speaking of dark things and
39:34
horrors that persist, uh, we did get
39:37
some more information about, uh,
39:39
Ravenloft and the domains of Dread uh,
39:42
because we got the Dark Lord preview uh,
39:46
recently, which I thought was really um,
39:48
where we got to see the uh, preview of
39:51
the actual Dark Lords that will rule all
39:54
of the domains of Dread. Uh, and I
39:57
thought it was really cool cuz one of
39:58
the first things that uh, came up was
40:00
well, Cthulhu and the fact that we have
40:02
a stat block for Cthulhu now. And I
40:05
don't know if you guys got a chance to
40:07
see what that looks like.
40:08
>> Yeah, I [laughter] think the third
40:09
edition. I had to call the Cthulhu third
40:11
edition. They've done this before.
40:12
>> I just they have they first edition,
40:14
too. Sorry. Go ahead, Liz.
40:16
>> This is This is so difficult to quantify
40:19
the unknowable horror that is Cthulhu in
40:22
a stat block. This just it kind of hurts
40:25
my head to be honest.
40:27
>> I just happened he's only AC19. I got a
40:29
chance to hit him.
40:30
>> What I just want to know is that so his
40:34
his realm his dark his dark realm his
40:38
domain within Raven Loft is literally in
40:41
>> Yeah. In the is Yeah. Is the rest of
40:44
Massachusetts also trapped in Raven
40:46
Loft?
40:47
>> Yes.
40:48
>> Is that a [laughter] thing?
40:49
>> Well, no trapped in the shadow.
40:52
Shadowfell, not Ravenoff. Ravenloft is a
40:54
subsection of the domains of thread.
40:55
Thank you very much.
40:56
>> Yeah, I will I will argue any place you
40:59
want to come up with that's a bad place
41:00
that that Massachusetts can be banished
41:02
to, they were. [laughter]
41:03
>> Although at the same time, I mean, I say
41:05
this in justest as a Rhode Islander,
41:07
they fully well know that we're the
41:08
criminals. Like to the point where until
41:11
1976, it was legal to kill a man from
41:13
Rhode Island in Massach there's a law on
41:15
the books in Fall River that you could
41:16
shoot somebody if you found out they
41:17
were from Rhode Island because clearly
41:18
they were coming to steal from you.
41:20
Well, going back to D and D here because
41:22
uh [laughter] I don't think we need to
41:23
talk about that that whole section.
41:24
Massachusetts.
41:25
>> I'm just saying Massachusetts definitely
41:27
belongs in the Shadowfell. That's where
41:28
it should go.
41:29
>> But it it's something that has been a
41:30
time timehonored tradition since
41:32
advanced D and D uh did the deeds and
41:34
demigods uh encyclopedia of gods and
41:36
heroes from myth and legend. Uh in which
41:39
I think they did the entire pantheon of
41:42
like the the uh HP Lovecraft universe.
41:45
>> It was Augustian cuz I've looked at it.
41:47
It it was it was very August Derlith
41:49
inspired. But yeah, it was definitely
41:51
that they also while they were at it,
41:53
they they stole um the the entire Melab
41:56
Bonian uh eternal champion stuff from
41:59
Michael Morco who was very much alive
42:02
[laughter] and right still writing it
42:04
and they they put that in there too. I
42:06
was like wow. You know, one thing to
42:08
steal from Lovecraft, the man was dead
42:09
for like 50 years at that point. They
42:11
stole from a living guy. Moving moving
42:14
moving to back to the preview though
42:15
because there there's a lot here that I
42:17
I think we want to talk about besides
42:18
just the fact that uh this has been done
42:21
before. But they actually like I said
42:23
the stat block for Cthulhu was revealed
42:25
as well as a bunch of other ones uh
42:27
which we'll talk about here in a second.
42:29
Um but man uh I he's what a CR
42:35
25. Like he's a heavy hitter even if his
42:38
AC is only 19.
42:39
>> I'm surprised though. I I think Liz had
42:41
a good point. It is hard to imagine
42:42
Cthulhu, you know, getting getting beat
42:45
up. I mean,
42:46
>> yeah, but the thing is the thing is
42:48
nothing nothing that dies in the dark in
42:49
the Shadow Fell stays dead. So, it's
42:52
fine. At least as far as I'm concerned.
42:54
>> Um,
42:54
>> I just I do think also um the fact that
42:57
they're going to have Inmouth with and
42:59
the thing is is that they did adventures
43:01
the salt marsh stuff with the Kuatoa
43:04
fits in really well with this.
43:06
>> Yes.
43:07
>> Because, you know, it was on purpose.
43:09
Uh, but you could totally I I feel like
43:11
the the embracing of the fact that
43:13
they've been borrowing Lovecraft for the
43:16
entirety of their run is a good idea
43:18
because they have been doing it so they
43:20
might as well just admit it.
43:21
>> But it's not the only one that was
43:23
previewed as well. Uh because uh Cosmic
43:25
Warrior is just one sort of aspect of
43:28
Ravenloft that they're going in here.
43:29
And yes, a lot of that will probably
43:31
bleed over into some of the other things
43:32
they've done because uh one of the
43:34
things of the whole domain of Inmouth is
43:36
it's reality warping. So that's that's a
43:39
whole theme. Uh then we have uh they got
43:42
V uh Vicram Mortenheim uh the Dark Lord
43:45
of Lamortia which was really cool. Uh
43:48
which is uh you know your good old mad
43:50
scientist. Uh you know if you've ever
43:53
wanted to watch you know or play in the
43:55
Reanimator or Repo the genetic opera or
43:59
any other mad scienty sciency like
44:03
setting here you go. Um cuz uh
44:07
Mortenheim uh has basically turned in
44:10
like has this wonderful like flesh
44:12
stitching uh heads in jars and
44:16
everything you could possibly want to
44:17
see in those types of monsters in her
44:19
domain which I think is really neat. She
44:22
she's historically got all kinds of cool
44:24
stuff in Mortnheim, like machines that
44:26
put souls in other bodies and things
44:28
like that, which I think we
44:30
>> I think Mortenheim got touched on
44:31
briefly in some of the fifth edition
44:32
books because that's where we got like
44:33
the lineage for the um
44:36
>> some of like the lineage for re for the
44:38
reanimated uh like lineage. I can't
44:41
remember who
44:41
>> the revenants or whatever.
44:43
>> Yeah, that's the one cuz they had
44:45
dampers and revenants and then the ones
44:46
who were um uh like hag offspring. Um,
44:52
and yeah, Mortenheim was a really cool
44:53
one, but the the one after the the next
44:55
one on this preview was definitely one
44:57
of my favorites because I didn't know if
44:58
they'd
44:58
>> bring about it.
45:00
>> Yeah. About Octaptop, the Dark Lord of
45:02
Heracir. Yeah. Uh, basically the villain
45:05
from The Mummy.
45:06
>> Yeah.
45:07
>> Everyone Everyone loves the Everyone
45:08
loves 1999's The Mummy. Not the remake
45:11
with Tom Cruz. No. Uh, yeah. the uh the
45:13
dark lord of Harakir, which was
45:15
basically kind of like dark fantasy
45:17
Egypt and your villain, your dark lord
45:19
was a high priest who betrayed his
45:21
pharaoh only to be cursed with undeath
45:23
and terrifying powers,
45:25
>> which people with ambition should be
45:26
cursed with undeath and terrifying
45:28
powers. That makes sense.
45:29
>> I also think it's really funny because
45:31
uh and I'm sure a couple of you will
45:33
probably remember this. I know Matt
45:35
will. Um but do you remember the old
45:37
Ravenloft uh like computer game like the
45:40
OG one on floppies? Yes, Anantep anch
45:44
pot uh was in that game because it was
45:48
not just you know Bovia but there were
45:52
references to that in in there where
45:54
like you could actually go and try to
45:56
kill I think at the point they just
45:58
called him the mummy but it was
46:00
literally him like this entire story the
46:03
high priest who betrayed the pharaoh
46:04
cursed to cursed by the gods and with
46:06
undeath and terrifying powers which you
46:09
know doesn't make logical sense like oh
46:10
yeah you did a bad thing. We're going to
46:12
give you superpowers. Suck on that a
46:14
little bit. And it's like, uh, thanks. I
46:17
can live eternally and I can summon like
46:19
swarms of flesh-eating like scarabs. And
46:22
>> yeah, but you you know, you know full
46:24
well that in Egyptian, you know,
46:25
religion/ mythology. That meant he would
46:28
never get his to you reunite his soul.
46:31
When you die, part of your soul goes
46:33
away. He'll never get to see his love.
46:36
>> You know, it it it is hell for him. Um,
46:39
to us it's like, "Wow, I get to live
46:41
forever and and summon, you know,
46:43
sandstorms to destroy my enemies." It's
46:45
like, well, first off, cats will mess
46:48
you up. Oh, yeah. I can't get near a
46:49
cat. Uh, sec and you know, quite
46:51
frankly, Ed Cats is right going, "Yeah,
46:53
I'm with you, mommy." Uh, but then also,
46:56
it's it was actually pretty inspired
46:59
that when you see the inside of the
47:01
tomb, and this is something that they
47:03
preserved uh in the Ravenloff stuff
47:05
form. So, I'm hoping that they they go
47:07
whole hog with it. Uh, but the inside of
47:09
his tomb was scratched. He had been
47:12
trying to get out for like to the point
47:14
where his fingers, which were just bone
47:16
at this point, still scratching away at
47:18
the lid right up till they opened it.
47:20
He'd been trying to get out for
47:22
thousands of years. He'd been stuck in
47:24
that thing. So, it's a pretty good curse
47:26
when you can't get out of a box.
47:27
[laughter]
47:28
Kind of not that great once you're out
47:30
of the box. Everyone's like, "Oh, yeah,
47:31
great."
47:31
>> And then somebody reader repulsed him
47:33
out of the box and here he is. So,
47:35
>> in 3,000 years I'm free. Yeah, there is
47:38
uh the other thing that I did want to
47:40
also point out too is that this is a
47:42
high magic setting. Uh as far as the
47:46
domains of dread go, which I think is
47:48
something that is really cool because
47:50
again, Cthulhu is reality bending
47:52
horror. Uh you have your mad science uh
47:55
when you're in Lamortia. Uh, and then
47:58
you have this high like high fantasy
48:02
magic with, you know, that dark twist in
48:04
harir.
48:07
Words are hard, especially when they're
48:09
made up. Um, so I think that's really
48:10
neat. And then the last one that they
48:12
showed off, or not the last one, the
48:14
second to last one, uh, out of the
48:16
unknown ones, uh, is a really like I
48:20
don't think they've really mentioned
48:21
this or talked about this since, uh, the
48:24
original original box set for Ravenloft.
48:27
Um, which is Eban Bane, uh, the dark
48:31
lord of the Shadowlands, who's literally
48:34
a sword. Uh, it has his own malevolent
48:37
intelligence.
48:37
>> Stormbringer
48:39
>> kind of. It's it's it's it's
48:43
more Frostorn, I think, than
48:44
Stormbringer.
48:45
>> Frostorn is also just Stormbringer.
48:47
[laughter]
48:48
You you know, it's stolen from Morco,
48:50
man. Uh and they even had one in Dn D of
48:53
their own. They black razor, which was
48:56
the exact same thing. So, yeah. O that's
48:58
that's a deep cut. I'm actually excited
49:00
now. Yeah, because Eban Bane was
49:02
originally, I think, a magic blade that
49:04
uh was wielded by a hero uh that just
49:06
like destroyed a whole bunch of evil and
49:08
then the blade was shattered and then
49:09
reforged in darkness. Uh so now the
49:11
blade instead of being a hero's sword is
49:13
just like, "Oh, remember all that evil
49:15
you you slayed? Well, now we're all
49:17
congealing into one giant, you know,
49:20
intelligent weapon of magic uh
49:22
awesomeness, which I thought was really
49:24
cool. Uh the fact that it corrupts
49:26
whoever wields it into utter wickedness
49:28
is really neat as well. Um, I think the
49:31
last reference to this in modern media
49:35
that I can remember, I think might have
49:36
been the D and D cartoon.
49:38
And then last, but certainly not least,
49:41
the poster child of Ravenloft, Strad Von
49:45
Zarovich, Dark Lord of Bovia. Um, and I
49:48
mean it he's new. He's
49:50
>> improved. Aelin.
49:51
>> What's that?
49:52
>> You mispronounced Azelin the lich. The
49:54
lich dark stupid sexy string.
49:58
[laughter]
50:01
Uh but yes, he's been updated. Uh he's
50:03
got a whole bunch of uh uh new like
50:06
abilities and because the last time we
50:09
got him, he was kind of not central to
50:13
the story or or the encounters cuz he
50:15
was I don't want to say he was a
50:16
pushover cuz he really wasn't, but it
50:18
wasn't the Strod that I remembered,
50:20
which was just an absolutely terrifying
50:23
baron of his his domain. Um, but yeah,
50:27
uh, what is I think they've got updates
50:30
like yes, he has fireball, but he also
50:32
has animate dead, greater invisibility,
50:34
polymorph, scrying, so he can keep an
50:37
eye on everybody the entire time you're
50:39
in his domain. Uh, he's got his
50:41
traditional vampiric bites, he can charm
50:43
creatures into being bitten. Um, it's
50:47
going to be really interesting to see uh
50:50
how it how it it it compares to not just
50:53
older editions of it, but like is he
50:56
actually going to be the terror that he
50:58
should be? Um, so yeah, like I'm excited
51:02
for this. I don't know how you guys
51:03
feel. I think it comes out uh I think
51:05
it's middle of June. Uh so by the time
51:08
you're listening to this, it will either
51:10
just be coming out or has been out for
51:12
just a little time. So I'm excited for
51:14
it. I think it's going to be potentially
51:16
a really good supplement for uh D and D
51:18
because it's doing almost exactly the
51:21
thing that I just asked them to do with
51:22
a lot of other stuff, which is give me
51:25
some cool campaign setting and dressing
51:28
and let me go. At least that's what it
51:30
feels like. What do you guys think?
51:31
>> Yeah, I mean I'm sure they won't be able
51:33
to help themselves from inserting an
51:35
adventure here or there, but you know,
51:37
it'll be um this is the kind of thing
51:39
where I would really just want like
51:40
maximum detail on like each each of the
51:43
domains. give me a stat block or two for
51:45
important NPCs. And then like the DMG
51:48
proved that sometimes when they want to
51:49
the new the new version of the D the the
51:51
DMG sorry the 5.5 one um they have what
51:55
they refer to as adventures which is
51:57
really just like a single column almost
51:59
like a summary of an adventure that you
52:00
get to you get to flesh out yourself
52:03
which I think is exactly the thing that
52:04
I would like to see them include more of
52:06
if they want to you know that's exactly
52:08
the kind of thing you kind of want in a
52:09
setting book you know run through
52:11
Mortenheim tell me about tell me about
52:13
Victor Mortenheim's mad science tell me
52:14
about the stuff she's built tell me
52:16
about, you know, some of the weird
52:18
people who live there who aren't her
52:19
cuz, you know, you're not necessarily
52:20
going to be interacting with the dark
52:21
lord from the word go.
52:23
>> You have to have subjects because he has
52:26
subjects.
52:26
>> She she has to have some underlings. Um,
52:28
and then just like give me a couple like
52:31
ideas that I can flesh out and adapt to
52:33
my group and that's kind of um I'm
52:35
interested to see how they do it. I'm
52:36
really excited to see return to the
52:38
parts of the domains of dread that
52:39
aren't um Bovia. So, I'm all in favor of
52:42
that. Um, I'm not actively in a D and D
52:46
game, so I don't know if I'll vote with
52:47
my wallet on this one, but you never
52:49
know.
52:49
>> Yeah. Uh, and I think I'm gonna throw
52:51
this over for another uh interesting one
52:53
in the whole realm of like weird, dark,
52:57
twisted, uh, and possibly weird. Liz, do
53:00
you want to talk about Octune Cthulhu?
53:03
>> Uh, yes. This is an alternate history.
53:07
Um,
53:08
you know, Cthulhu myth mythos uh cosmic
53:12
horror thing set in uh World War II. Am
53:17
I Yeah, I think I have that right. Yes.
53:19
Um but their recent um this is from
53:23
Modius and their most recent book the
53:26
Norway Project is the last book they're
53:28
planning to do for utum Cthulhu and
53:33
they what they've said is they you know
53:35
they think the franchise is a good place
53:38
and we want the community to take the
53:40
next steps on the journey with the
53:42
worldbuilders program which is currently
53:44
getting reworked. As part of this, we
53:46
will make a big bundle of Aun Cathulu
53:49
artwork available for worldbuilders
53:51
creators to use in their new projects.
53:53
So, they're kind of setting it aside.
53:56
The development team has been
53:58
repurposed. They're doing working on
54:00
different projects. And it's it's just
54:03
interesting that, you know, sometimes
54:05
you do reach the end of a world you're
54:07
working on or maybe you're sort of out
54:10
of ideas or inspiration. Maybe you want
54:12
to work on something else. That's
54:14
always, you know, sometimes you have to
54:16
chase your vision instead of like just
54:18
continuing to work on something even
54:20
though you don't have great ideas or
54:22
maybe it's not uh fun, maybe it's not a
54:25
passion project anymore. Um, but I think
54:28
it's very interesting to set this aside,
54:32
but also say, "Hey, we have this great
54:35
creators program and we want to see what
54:37
you do with it and we're going to give
54:39
you the resources to work on it." I
54:41
think that's uh a very interesting take
54:44
on this. It's a really it's an
54:46
interesting world too to go uh alternate
54:49
histories can be a lot of fun. And of
54:51
course we were just talking about our
54:54
Cthulhu stat block we're getting but uh
54:58
just taking taking the past and giving
55:00
it a twist with a different angle. So
55:01
this is a really interesting game but
55:04
it's sort of coming to an end. They
55:07
didn't Montas didn't say they would
55:09
never come back to it, but currently
55:11
there's no future development planned.
55:14
So, what do y'all think? Do you think
55:16
that other games should do this and push
55:19
say like, "Okay, we're we're kind of
55:20
tired of working on this, but you you do
55:24
what you want to do with it."
55:25
>> I I don't know that it's necessarily
55:26
being tired of working on it. It's it's
55:29
>> Yeah,
55:29
>> Modifius has a good working relationship
55:34
with a lot of different IPs. Um, and as
55:37
a publisher of tabletop RPGs, like they
55:40
have a ton of stuff to focus on. And so
55:44
taking a step back and saying, what
55:46
would I rather do? Make, you know,
55:49
mediocre content for this
55:51
>> or move over to, you know, development
55:54
to something else or focus on something
55:55
else? Cuz don't forget like uh they have
55:58
it's not just Octune uh Cthulhu, it's
56:02
they have Dune, Adventures of the
56:04
Imperium, Fallout, uh Star Trek,
56:06
>> Star Trek.
56:07
>> Yeah.
56:08
>> Dishonored, Homew World, Infinity, John
56:10
Carter of Mars.
56:11
>> Uh like they have a bunch of stuff uh
56:14
that they they they have under their
56:15
role playing banner.
56:17
>> Go ahead.
56:18
>> One book coming out soon that I think a
56:20
lot of us will be enthusiastic about is
56:22
the Fallout New Vegas setting guide.
56:25
that's uh
56:26
>> coming soon, coming in August.
56:29
>> And but taking that step back and saying
56:30
we have a runway for all these other
56:32
things. We don't want to just cram
56:34
development in here, but we don't want
56:35
to let it die either. Let's give our
56:38
community tools to work on this and keep
56:40
making things and craft what they want
56:44
is phenomenal to me at least. matter
56:47
Phil.
56:47
>> No, I think that's good. And I also
56:49
think that especially for a spec so one
56:52
of the things about Akun Cath Cthulhu is
56:54
it is a very specific type of uh
56:57
alternate history. And that's the kind
56:59
of thing where if you were producing a
57:01
fan-made product, maybe art is kind of
57:03
hard to come by. And so I feel like
57:05
giving people that extra leg up on top
57:07
of already having this, you know, this
57:08
well belt out franchise and the material
57:10
they already have for Octon Cthulhu on
57:11
top of that saying here's art you can
57:13
use in your project is really cool. Like
57:18
that's a that's a really cool kind of
57:19
outro for them if the if this is the end
57:21
of the line for them or if it's just on
57:23
a hiatus for a while to see what the
57:24
community does. like whichever way they
57:27
go with this extending that big material
57:31
olive branch of here's a bunch of art
57:33
you can use to make your own projects
57:35
and it's going to look official because
57:36
this is a this is art from the people
57:38
who made the thing like that's a really
57:40
cool step to take. Um it rem I guess it
57:44
remains to be seen how this is going to
57:45
work. You know is the community going to
57:46
keep this going or will like the
57:48
community around this uh game kind of
57:50
dry up? you know, that still remains to
57:51
be seen. But at the very least, they've
57:53
I I feel like if Miffius is either
57:56
taking a temporary or permanent step
57:58
back from this line, they've picked a
58:00
really novel and and community positive
58:05
way to do it.
58:06
>> Mhm. Matt,
58:07
>> I mean, um I don't I I like what they're
58:11
doing and I I like that more people are
58:14
going to get to play in the sandbox. I'm
58:16
leerary of the the things they're going
58:20
to have to do to watch this to make sure
58:22
that the that certain products don't get
58:24
made. Um I was having a talk the other
58:27
day with somebody who didn't seem to
58:29
understand the concept that the
58:30
Stormtroopers were the bad guys in Star
58:32
Star Wars. [laughter]
58:34
And I'm like, you know, like the
58:35
Stormtroopers. And they were like, yeah,
58:38
white armor. No, no, no, no, no. They're
58:40
named after the stormtroopers, the SA,
58:44
the Stormmoid, you know, World War II.
58:47
Do you do you do you not watch
58:48
documentaries? You you have your XY
58:51
chromosome. I think you're a lot you're
58:52
forced to watch at least one uh and just
58:56
yeah I'm Octon Cthulu always part part
59:00
of the problem is I'm actually really
59:02
read up on the Black Sun stuff uh to the
59:05
point where I know how entrenched it is
59:08
in the modern stuff and I find myself
59:12
simultaneously I think it would be great
59:13
to see people work with this and a
59:15
little nervous like that's that's how
59:17
I'm gonna put it but but the idea that
59:18
they did this and put the art out for
59:20
people to use and are going to let
59:22
people basically develop stuff for it.
59:25
That's cool. Um, other companies have
59:27
similar product lines that they allow
59:29
people to do, but nobody's ever said,
59:31
"We're going to step back from our
59:33
thing, but you go ahead and do what you
59:35
want."
59:35
>> Yeah,
59:36
>> that's that's that's something I wish
59:38
other companies would do. Like, there's
59:40
a lot of abandoned stuff out there. Um,
59:43
there's a lot of games that just there's
59:44
no Gamble World product currently being
59:46
made. If if tomorrow Wizards of Coast
59:49
said, "Hey, we own this IP. We've got a
59:52
whole bunch of the art from all previous
59:53
versions of it. We're going to put it
59:55
right here on this site and we're going
59:57
to let you use it and make your own
59:59
Gamma World products." Like, whoa. Okay,
1:00:02
I'd be there. Um, but they're not going
1:00:05
to. And so it falls to Modifist, you
1:00:08
know, who again, Modifist
1:00:11
has like not just Star Trek and
1:00:12
Dishonored the role playing game and
1:00:14
Fallout. They've also got stuff like the
1:00:16
Odyssey of the Dragon Lords and the
1:00:18
Serpent Sea, both from James Olan, uh,
1:00:20
who we may remember from such episodes
1:00:23
of the podcast as last week. Um, there's
1:00:26
a ton of stuff that they have going on,
1:00:28
people they're working with, stuff
1:00:30
they're doing. It might just be a matter
1:00:32
of, you know, we had to pick something
1:00:34
to to back off of.
1:00:35
>> Yeah.
1:00:36
>> Yeah. and we just don't have the the
1:00:38
time and energy to do all of this and
1:00:41
then all this licensing we're doing and
1:00:43
then all this other stuff and we have to
1:00:45
pick the stuff that that pays the bills.
1:00:48
Um, Octon, as as Phil pointed out, Octon
1:00:51
Cthulhu is real niche, even within the,
1:00:54
you know, dark horror role playing games
1:00:58
about Cthulhu, which are that's already
1:01:01
a niche inside of a niche. And now Octon
1:01:04
Cthulhu comes along and it's like, hey,
1:01:05
remember that Cthulhu by Gaslight? What
1:01:07
if it was World War II?
1:01:09
>> Yeah. And I mean, like, you know,
1:01:10
>> the the funny the funny thing about
1:01:12
that, too, is like, yeah, you're you're
1:01:13
right that it's very very niche. There
1:01:16
was a um a point I want to say it was
1:01:18
like 10ish years ago
1:01:20
>> where like alternate history World War
1:01:22
II with like the the sort of Eldrich
1:01:26
horror thing was like super popular.
1:01:28
Like it was all over the place. So a lot
1:01:30
of like miniature tabletop role playing
1:01:33
games were getting into it. Uh war games
1:01:35
were getting into it. Like I remember uh
1:01:37
there was an alternate history game uh
1:01:39
called Dust. Um, and it was alternate
1:01:43
history for like the world, but it
1:01:45
didn't go into like the weird stuff yet.
1:01:47
Uh, and it was like what if, you know,
1:01:49
we had fourlegged mechs instead of tanks
1:01:52
or like or we had people successfully
1:01:56
built uh World War II like uh Iron Man
1:01:59
suits, but like you know, they're just
1:02:01
basically walking tanks. Um, and then it
1:02:04
started veering into this where there
1:02:05
was like literally like the storyline
1:02:08
progressed to the point where like the
1:02:10
axis powers at the time like
1:02:12
successfully summoned Eldrich horrors to
1:02:14
the plane to fight, you know, the good
1:02:17
guys. And I'm air quoting that. Um, to
1:02:19
the point where like it produced some of
1:02:20
like the best miniatures for like
1:02:23
Cthulhu that have ever been produced.
1:02:25
Like I have I I have one unpainted that
1:02:28
I have not got sat down to do yet from
1:02:30
this game that I'm sitting there looking
1:02:32
like this would be perfect for like if I
1:02:34
run uh Domains of Dread or something
1:02:36
like that like paint it up, get it onto
1:02:38
a table. But like and then that fell off
1:02:41
and it fell off really really hard uh
1:02:43
where like the alternate history elder
1:02:45
horror stuff sort of like tapered off
1:02:47
and like then became like this really
1:02:49
niche thing.
1:02:50
>> I'm going to say straight up I blame
1:02:51
Dennis Deweiler and Greg Staltz for this
1:02:54
whole thing. the fact that it was so big
1:02:56
back then.
1:02:57
>> I was gonna let Hellboy, but okay.
1:02:59
>> Well, they Hellboy inspired Godlike, the
1:03:02
superhero role playinging in a world on
1:03:03
fire. 1936, 1946. That's the actual
1:03:05
title.
1:03:06
>> And Greg Stoultz and Dennis Deweiler did
1:03:08
that. Dennis Deweiler is also famous for
1:03:10
his involvement in uh the Cthulhu based
1:03:14
Delta Green.
1:03:15
>> Yep.
1:03:16
>> Which is modern. It's like the X-Files
1:03:18
if Cthulhu is real. Y
1:03:19
>> uh so and also John Scott Tines would
1:03:22
got involved. He he did some stuff with
1:03:24
Pagan Publishing to help get into it.
1:03:26
And basically, it's adjacent to the
1:03:29
Deadlands company. Um I can't remember
1:03:32
the name at the time. Pinnacle Pinnacle
1:03:35
put out a superhero RPG that was also
1:03:37
Lovecrafty and Nightmare Horror Behind
1:03:39
the the Scenes called Brave New World,
1:03:42
which started in World War II. So yeah,
1:03:44
there was a whole bunch of this weird
1:03:46
crossover stuff with like monsters and
1:03:48
you know I I don't think that Octon
1:03:50
Cthulhu doesn't have a a fan base that
1:03:53
will support it. That's not what I'm
1:03:54
saying. I'm saying if you have to pick
1:03:58
>> Yeah. From a business standpoint. Yeah.
1:04:00
>> Yeah. It it is sensible in a way that I
1:04:03
don't particularly like that they would
1:04:05
have to do that. But and again to Liz's
1:04:07
point and to what we were talking about
1:04:08
with, you know, and Phil mentioned, the
1:04:10
fact that they're at least putting it
1:04:12
into a position where the community can
1:04:14
carry the torch is commendable because
1:04:17
it's so
1:04:17
>> How many times have we seen that not
1:04:19
happen?
1:04:19
>> Yeah. Almost too many too many times to
1:04:22
count, right? Like
1:04:22
>> Yeah. There's way too many times a game
1:04:24
just peters out and dies and you never
1:04:25
hear from it again. versus the company
1:04:27
saying, "We're going to put all these
1:04:29
tools available or or make them
1:04:30
available with the artwork and and other
1:04:33
stuff like that so that you can keep
1:04:34
making stuff that you want to see in
1:04:36
this world." Uh, we just can't anymore,
1:04:40
right? So, like that's it it's good.
1:04:42
It's good stewardship of the IP and I'm
1:04:46
I really am looking forward to what the
1:04:48
community cooks up because going back to
1:04:50
earlier with like Phil's comment about
1:04:52
some of these city guides and the best
1:04:54
guides that have been put out are being
1:04:55
done by third party, you know, entities
1:04:58
for D and D. Sometimes some of the best
1:05:00
content you can get for any of the
1:05:02
tabletop role playing games that are
1:05:03
available are third-party like fan-made
1:05:07
communitydriven
1:05:09
endeavors that just breathe a whole new
1:05:12
set of life into whatever you're
1:05:13
playing. And that goes for everything.
1:05:15
Like you could look at all the Power by
1:05:17
the Apocalypse stuff. Most of that is
1:05:20
started as fan-made content for like
1:05:23
other other systems that like spun up
1:05:25
into its own thing, right? Like it's
1:05:27
it's really cool. I'm also going to say
1:05:29
this for people who were trying to
1:05:30
figure out like if if for some reason
1:05:32
you want to play with Octon Culu and
1:05:34
you're trying to figure out how to get a
1:05:36
way in there mentally speaking, I'm
1:05:39
going to re recommend a book to you
1:05:40
because it is sort of actually in this
1:05:42
genre specifically. The Keep by F. Paul
1:05:45
Wilson.
1:05:46
>> Oh yeah.
1:05:47
>> Yeah,
1:05:48
>> it it is not it is he later expanded it
1:05:52
and made it even more so. like he he's
1:05:55
created a whole world around this
1:05:57
intersection between weird cosmic horror
1:06:00
and you know just urban regular people
1:06:03
trying to live. Uh and the keep is
1:06:05
absolutely perfect because it's set in
1:06:07
like Romania in 1943 and it let's just
1:06:10
say there's stuff going on and yeah so
1:06:14
get that you read that it'll give you
1:06:15
ideas and then just think about it in
1:06:17
terms of the entirety of World War II.
1:06:19
There's lots of room for it and
1:06:20
especially if you know anything about
1:06:21
the way the the Nazi party liked to just
1:06:24
dabble in mysticism and didn't really
1:06:26
care whether or not they were getting it
1:06:27
right.
1:06:27
>> And honestly, go back and and if you
1:06:29
want additional inspiration, the Hellboy
1:06:31
comics are also really really good for
1:06:33
that.
1:06:33
>> Oh, yeah. And and they have Hellboy in
1:06:35
them. So,
1:06:36
>> yeah. Uh, but I think that's going to do
1:06:38
it for today, friends. I do want to
1:06:39
thank you for joining us on this
1:06:41
journey. As always, Blizzard Watch is
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1:06:54
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1:08:04
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1:08:08
>> Bye.
1:08:17
>> [music]
1:08:22
[music]
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