Up next in 10
In this Diablo 4 spoiler-laden lorefest, Joe and Matt discuss the end of the campaign from Lord of Hatred and where it may lead next. The link between Lilith and Mephisto and us was a core element in Lord of Hatred, and we're discussing the nature of that link, and what that knife had to do with it, anyway. And speaking of that knife, where is Lilith now? Come to think of it, where was she at the start of Diablo 4, before Elias took his three willing participants to give the Daughter of Hatred blood and flesh again? Could that knife be leading us to another future expansion?
As usual, it's a deep dive. And when it's at the end, we ask the real question: Where in the seven hells is Diablo? It's supposed to be his game!
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Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:04
[music]
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:12
table free form discussion about lore in
0:14
your favorite media. I'm your host, Joe
0:16
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:18
from Blizzard Watch. And I've got my uh
0:21
forever companion with me today, Matt
0:23
Rossy. How you doing today, Matt?
0:24
>> Don't you forget the pact we swore on
0:26
the ground tide. Uh, if you've ever seen
0:29
the wonderful TV show from the '9s,
0:32
Gargoyles, uh, one of us is Desdona and
0:35
the other one is Anatos. We haven't
0:36
decided which is which.
0:37
>> I thought it was Mc Beth.
0:39
>> Oh, that's right. I apologize. One of us
0:42
is McBTH and one of us is Deson.
0:43
>> I think I'm probably McBth.
0:45
>> Maybe
0:45
>> I'm definitely not hot enough to be uh
0:48
Deona. [laughter]
0:50
>> All right. Well, uh, we're not here to
0:52
talk about that. Although, we could do
0:53
an entire episode on the lore of
0:55
gargoyless if that's something you all
0:56
want. I know. Uh I would definitely dig
0:59
into that because man, the comics got
1:01
weird, let me tell you.
1:03
>> Yeah, the quarry men, what the heck is
1:05
going on?
1:07
>> Yeah. [snorts] Anyway, um if you have
1:09
questions for this or any of our
1:10
podcasts cuz we are going to be
1:11
answering some questions from you today,
1:13
be sure to send those in to podcast at
1:15
blizzardwatch.com. Specify the show that
1:18
it is for in the subject line as well as
1:20
any special pronunciation of your name.
1:23
Uh if you want to hit us on Discord, we
1:25
have two channels set aside. We have the
1:26
Q and Podcast questions channel open to
1:28
everybody. Same rules apply sending an
1:30
email. And if you are a Patreon
1:33
subscriber, not only can you hit us up
1:34
on patreon.com with a direct message and
1:37
make Liz do work. Haha. Uh or you can
1:40
hit us up on the patron Q and podcast
1:42
questions channel on Discord and we
1:44
always send a look there first as a way
1:46
of saying thank you for helping us keep
1:47
the lights on. And we're going to open
1:49
things up with a Diablo uh question
1:51
because well, let's why not? Uh, this is
1:55
from Seabbred. We've shoved Meto into
1:58
the void using Lilith's dagger. Did we
2:00
send her there, too? And did we keep the
2:03
knife? If we did, what are the
2:06
implications of it? Will it scare the
2:08
everloving ghost pirates out of heaven
2:11
and hell? And the titular evil hasn't
2:14
shown up yet, and the end cinematic feel
2:17
felt like an ending. Are there any
2:19
rumblings about future expansions where
2:21
Diablo pops up? And this is where I'm
2:24
going to shake Matt uh and let him take
2:26
his an ever burgeoning arsenal of
2:28
barbarian weaponry and say you get first
2:31
crack at this Matt.
2:32
>> Thank you very kindly. Um first off I'll
2:35
say for the question of what happened to
2:37
Lilith, we do not know. We know that the
2:39
connection uh between you and Meto was
2:42
Lilith. It was Lilith's presence in you
2:45
that allowed him to reach into you. Um
2:48
so where is she? We don't know. Uh, we
2:52
don't know if she died. We don't know if
2:54
she can die.
2:55
>> Yeah.
2:56
>> Um, we don't know if she went back to
2:58
since he go into the void. We don't know
3:00
if she did. Uh, that's that's it's a
3:04
possibility, but we don't know.
3:06
>> But it didn't work the it didn't go the
3:07
opposite way, though, because when she
3:08
was in the void, he was not in the
3:10
>> Yeah. But keep in mind that she was made
3:12
from him, not the other way around. So,
3:14
there is there's there is a possibility
3:16
of it, but it is far from certain. I'm
3:19
gonna make a point that I think is
3:21
actually really elucive of all this. We
3:24
know of at least one other than Theion
3:27
of Meto who might have been in the void
3:30
this whole
3:30
>> Yeah. her brother, right?
3:31
>> Yeah. Her brother Lucian. You'll notice
3:33
that there's at least two items in uh
3:37
Diablo I mention Lucian directly.
3:40
There's the crown of Lucian, which is
3:42
just straight up goes, you know, he he
3:44
has no rule. He, you know, I'm not
3:45
looking at it right the second, but it
3:47
is it is very much talks about how he is
3:50
just the prince of hate. He doesn't have
3:51
a portfolio. He doesn't have a a domain.
3:54
He has nothing.
3:55
>> Yeah. So, the the flavor text is the
3:57
prince of hatred, fair as maggots over
4:00
carryon. He claims no throne, crafts no
4:02
realms, reigning over only a blackened
4:05
bitter heart. Some legends name him
4:08
banish while others dread his return.
4:10
So, and we know from, you know, the sin
4:12
war that what happened to Lucian was he
4:14
stepped up to Odysian and Odysian unmade
4:18
him. Like literally unmade him. That's
4:20
the word in the book. Um, and what's
4:23
really messed up is I just recently got
4:25
a a breastplate like I think it's the
4:27
the the armor of Second Life or
4:29
something.
4:30
>> Oh yeah. uh that mentions, you know,
4:33
Lucian picked a fight with Ariel, the
4:35
Archangel, and she smacked his him down,
4:39
but he didn't die. He just pretended to
4:42
because he didn't want to actually have
4:43
to go back to the abyss. Like, he's
4:45
like, I don't want to go. I don't want
4:46
to go back. Dad won't be mad. So, it's
4:50
it's clear that A, Lucian existed. B,
4:54
Lucian was disintegrated, essentially
4:56
taken out of existence. He wasn't just
4:58
killed, he was sent away and he didn't
5:01
go back to the hells. Where has he been?
5:06
Uh, we don't know. Is he currently in
5:08
game? Maybe. Um, and Joe and I talked a
5:12
little bit about that last week. Um,
5:14
there's a quest in Scovos where you end
5:18
up what witnessing the birth of
5:20
something from outside existence that
5:23
has an essence similar to that which
5:25
used to be on you and reminded the
5:28
person who was helping you of Lilith
5:30
herself. So, it's possible something is
5:33
going on with that. But the reason I
5:35
bring all this up is to say we don't
5:38
understand the void. We don't know
5:42
anything about it. We only know that the
5:45
when something goes there, it can't
5:47
leave of its own valition. And it's very
5:51
important to realize, at least with a
5:54
lot of what we've seen in Diablo 4, both
5:57
in terms of the original campaign, uh,
5:59
Vessel of Hatred and now Lord of Hatred,
6:02
a unwilling sacrifice is worth a lot
6:04
less than a willing one. You'll notice
6:08
that in order to get Lilith out of the
6:10
void, um, Elias needed willing
6:14
sacrifices.
6:15
>> Even then, it was it was a limited
6:17
number of them, too, comparatively,
6:18
right? Like it was one.
6:19
>> He needed three people.
6:20
>> Oh, yeah. It was right. It was three
6:22
people that had been that had signed on
6:23
for that. Yeah.
6:25
>> Yeah. He needed three people.
6:26
>> An oddly specific number. H three.
6:29
>> Yeah. He needed three people to
6:31
willingly sacrifice themselves. When you
6:33
see everything Meisto does in Vessel of
6:36
Hatred and pretty much everything he did
6:38
in in Lord of Hatred, it's willing. If
6:41
they're not willing, he's trying
6:43
desperately to break Nel to get her to
6:45
consent.
6:47
He wasn't trying to just control her. He
6:50
could make her hallucinate. He could
6:52
mess with her body. He did all that. But
6:54
he that wasn't important to him. What
6:56
was important to him was getting her to
6:58
willingly surrender the soul stone.
7:00
either to allow him into her or to just
7:03
straight up drop it. That's what he
7:05
wanted. And it was his entire
7:08
motivation. And then you see him in Lord
7:09
of Hatred and everything he does with
7:11
with the people who are following him
7:13
thinking he's Aarat, he gets them to
7:15
willingly concede. Whether they're
7:17
conceding to him because they've been
7:18
lied to or in the case of the hands of
7:20
Akarat who know who Meisto is and and
7:24
who he really is, you know that Akarat
7:26
is really Meisto. they it willingly
7:29
sacrif like I do this willingly o meto
7:31
take my hate you know and all of that's
7:35
complicated like that's a lot of power
7:39
that has to be taken I I again think it
7:41
ties back into the whole idea of
7:43
Nephilim as both angel and devil um they
7:46
are both demonic and angelic they have
7:48
the power of both uh within them and
7:50
that's why their sacrifices have to be
7:52
willing to be to be a useful um the cult
7:56
we we in Scoos that's trying to bring
8:00
something out of the void are not using
8:03
willing sacrifices anymore and that's
8:04
one of the reasons why they need a lot
8:06
of sacrifices. Um instead of one or two
8:09
people who can see they need to go kill
8:11
like 30 people. Um, and that's all of
8:14
this is to say in terms of Lilith's
8:17
current existence, we don't know if she
8:19
we don't know why she didn't just
8:22
regenerate in the hells except that we
8:25
struck her down in the hells. It's not
8:28
ever stated anywhere that I can think of
8:29
in Diablo law that that's a problem.
8:32
Like killing someone in the hells
8:33
doesn't necessarily mean that they'll
8:36
die permanently, but it it's the only
8:39
thing I can think of as to why she went
8:40
straight into you instead of her
8:44
regenerating somewhere in the hells
8:45
other than the fact that she might
8:46
possibly just been afraid to
8:48
>> the
8:49
>> And that's the thing Lucian was afraid
8:50
too because if you regenerate there then
8:53
dad might get a chance to do something
8:55
to you.
8:55
>> Yeah. So that that's an interesting
8:57
point, right? Like so one of the things
8:59
I think is interesting is like them
9:01
Lucian in particular not wanting to
9:03
regenerate in hell kind of makes a
9:04
little bit of sense because Meisto bore
9:08
these two
9:11
scions of his power from his own power.
9:15
There's nothing that says he couldn't
9:16
have reabsorbed them, right? And I think
9:20
that's one of the more interesting
9:21
things about it cuz at any point in time
9:24
there's the potential that, you know,
9:26
maybe they didn't want to go back cuz
9:28
they would have just got scooped right
9:29
back up into daddy's regeneration.
9:32
>> Um
9:32
>> Yeah. Cuz what what made them think what
9:34
made Lilith think that she could do the
9:36
same to him?
9:37
>> Well, and that's the thing. She wanted
9:39
to absorb his power, right? Very
9:40
specifically absorb his power, take over
9:42
his mantle.
9:43
>> Yeah. And she thought she could. And
9:46
>> which means that maybe it goes both
9:47
ways. As long as the one who's the most
9:50
powerful is in that place, they can
9:53
absorb the other. Maybe the fact that
9:55
she thought she could Oh, go ahead. I'm
9:56
sorry.
9:56
>> No, no, no, no, no. You're you're you're
9:58
you're you're good. But like you're
10:00
you're kind of getting to the same
10:01
thing. Like one of the things that I
10:02
I've been thinking about since the end
10:03
of uh the Lilith campaign is yeah she
10:07
was in the void before but after Meisto
10:10
was no longer there. Meisto has
10:12
essentially regenerated or not even
10:14
regenerated uh taken on a new glutath of
10:18
power when we you know he's shoved into
10:20
Acarat's body. uh that to at least to me
10:25
there's a potential that she's not gone
10:27
and that she didn't like go to us
10:30
because she didn't want to go back. We
10:33
might just be dealing with the leftover
10:34
vestages of her power because one of the
10:36
things that I think was made very clear
10:38
is that any part of that power that
10:42
resides literally anywhere
10:44
sort of has access to it because that's
10:47
the whole thing with like Meto being
10:49
able to like sort of crash your body,
10:50
right? or like crash your memories in
10:53
your party. It's because he's linked
10:54
with Lilith. You're linked with Lilith.
10:56
You're linked with the power of hatred.
10:57
And so with him in the void, I mean,
11:01
again, he didn't become less powerful
11:03
because Lilith was in the void. And she
11:06
is technically, at least, as far as we
11:07
can tell, a separate entity. And the
11:08
same thing with Lucian, right? Like,
11:10
>> yes, exactly. The power is is shared
11:13
because they're born from it. But
11:15
there's a reason she's called the
11:17
daughter of Hagen, not, you know, the
11:19
the pl, you know, not the a servant of
11:21
hatred. She's birthed from it. That
11:24
doesn't make her vulnerable to it, but
11:25
it does mean whoever is most powerful in
11:28
a place of power gets to make the rules.
11:32
And and Meisto's gut like Meisto spends
11:35
a lot of time even before the game. Like
11:38
we've seen all these places where Meisto
11:40
left his mark from his time in Sankakur
11:43
in Diablo I like all these destroyed
11:46
places. is we go to the place where
11:47
Sinkur's body was and it's it's a horror
11:49
show and the fields of hatred that's him
11:52
again. He did that and the corruption
11:55
you see in Nantu that's the second time
11:59
that Akarat saw it like this is what
12:02
Meisto does to a place. This corruption
12:05
is what he does. And
12:08
go ahead.
12:09
>> I was going to say the other interesting
12:10
thing to consider too is where did we
12:12
kill Lilith? in his throne room
12:15
>> in his in his citadel in his throne room
12:18
in front of him. I
12:20
>> well he's gone by then. He has been
12:22
taken by Nell at that point and left.
12:24
>> Yeah. In front of his pod I guess would
12:26
be a better way to put it. But it's I I
12:28
find that also very interesting because
12:31
if Meto always went back to there
12:35
essentially to his throne to his domain
12:37
of power to regenerate and technically
12:40
Lilith is the only power of hatred left
12:43
on this plane of existence. Uh, and I'm
12:46
gonna put a really big asterisk next to
12:48
that one because the whole loose Yeah.
12:50
Um,
12:51
>> it it really begs the question of is she
12:54
actually gone or and we get this
12:57
question a lot and I've seen a lot of
12:59
discourse on it as far as like, you
13:00
know, social media goes and people
13:02
asking this question. I don't think us
13:06
severing our tie with her killed her. I
13:10
think that it just literally severed our
13:12
tie with her. we no longer have access
13:15
to the power of hatred.
13:16
>> Although here's a weird thing, and I
13:18
don't disagree with you at all, but I do
13:20
want to put this out here as part as
13:22
part of that. When you meet um I can't
13:25
remember her name, but the Sphinx
13:26
character who's not a Sphinx, but you
13:28
know, she's plays the same role. When
13:30
you meet her uh in that destroyed part
13:33
of Sco and you know, interact with her,
13:36
she calls you um the stained one. And
13:38
the first time she talks to you, she
13:40
describes you she describes you as you
13:42
know there's you the the scaffolding
13:45
>> of what was done to you is still there
13:48
in you.
13:49
>> Mhm.
13:50
>> And the weird thing is honestly with
13:53
with Lilith going you're still just as
13:55
powerful if not even more powerful. And
13:58
I think that's because by the end of
13:59
this you're an awakened Nephilim.
14:01
>> I I think so too. And I think that I
14:04
think it was more the other way around
14:06
that you weren't necessarily feeding off
14:09
of Lilith and in case this case Meisto.
14:13
I think they were feeding off of you.
14:15
And I think that was sort of the whole
14:16
point, right? Because think about what
14:18
happened. So, and we're just kind of
14:20
going back through it. Meisto in wolf
14:23
form finds you essentially as you're
14:26
dying to the cold in this the the the
14:28
the
14:30
Kyavashad uh area. Um you are saved by
14:35
him. Why? And I think it's because, and
14:38
we've talked about this before, and I
14:40
think we talked about this with uh at
14:42
least two, maybe even three of the
14:44
Diablo episodes where there seems to be
14:48
this cycle where the very first of
14:50
humanity, the very first Nephilim were
14:53
born, had fantastic power, uh that was
14:56
seen as a threat. They were eradicated
14:58
and sent to the bottom of the ocean, uh
15:00
making what is ostensibly the drowned.
15:03
Um then we had the second awakening of
15:06
the Nephilim where you had uh why can't
15:11
I think of his name now?
15:12
>> Odysian.
15:12
>> Odysian. Uh who reached full power
15:15
>> servant in Mendel who was the direct
15:17
servant of Rathma.
15:19
>> Yep. Mendel who's a direct servant of
15:21
Rathma of which there is a town list
15:23
like named after him in the game that
15:25
you go to in Diablo 4. Don't think
15:26
that's a coincidence. Um then you had
15:30
the heroes that were arguably Nephilim
15:34
uh appearing again and then disappearing
15:37
and now we're back again. So there's
15:39
this cycle of the Nephilim attempting to
15:41
reemerge
15:42
and I think we may have been the next
15:46
like link in that chain and now that the
15:49
life pools are sort of I I want to say
15:52
exploded. I really don't know. they they
15:54
were corrupted and then everything that
15:56
happened with Meisto like I I don't know
15:59
that it's it's not fully unleashed the
16:01
power like the capstone may have been
16:02
removed at this point uh and with the
16:04
world stone being in shambles no longer
16:06
keeping you in check
16:07
>> I agree with you but I think that may
16:09
have already been happening which is why
16:11
one me was able to regenerate the way he
16:13
was
16:14
>> uh and the way that Lilith was able to
16:17
come back as powerful as she was and why
16:19
you were her favorite blood vessel I
16:22
guess would be the best way to put it.
16:23
Yeah, I think there's actually three
16:25
things to think about there because I I
16:26
totally love where you're going with it.
16:28
The first one is that Meisto presents it
16:30
as he saved you, but he's I don't think
16:34
he's lying. You would have died had he
16:37
not interceded, but I think he
16:39
interceded by killing your horse.
16:41
>> Yeah,
16:42
>> because what else did that? Wars aren't
16:44
going to just rip its inards out and
16:46
leave them there.
16:47
>> No, Wars would have feasted upon it,
16:49
especially in the cold.
16:50
>> They would have eaten the the freaking
16:51
thing. So that wasn't that he did that.
16:56
Why did he put you in the position of
16:58
almost freezing to death? Because we
17:01
know that there's the first thing that
17:02
always comes to mind that I always bring
17:04
up and I don't know if it ever really
17:06
hits with other people, but Meesto is
17:09
tied to humanity, like all humanity and
17:12
sanctuary because Lilith is their quote
17:15
unquote mother and she's part of him.
17:19
That makes him our grandfather. that in
17:21
a weird sort of way, Methisto has the
17:24
best odds of manipulating humans. And I
17:28
think that's why when you talk about the
17:30
cycle of the primevalss, it's always
17:32
hatred begets destruction begets terror
17:36
and then terror begets hate. It's it's a
17:39
cycle because Mefisto was a perfect one
17:41
to start it and Diablo was always the
17:43
one to end it. You end the cycle by not
17:46
being afraid anymore. You can't end the
17:48
cycle by not destroying things and you
17:52
can't end the cycle by not hating
17:54
things, but you can end the cycle by
17:57
standing up to your fear.
17:58
>> Yeah. And we we talked,
18:00
>> sorry, I was going to say we we've also
18:01
talked about this quite a bit, too,
18:04
where
18:05
>> the prime evils are all human emotion,
18:09
right? Like they're all
18:11
>> they're all things that exist naturally.
18:13
they're just, you know, this taking it
18:16
to the 10th degree or the 30th degree uh
18:20
order of magnitude more powerful than uh
18:24
it is. And it's the same thing with the
18:25
angels too, right? The these concepts of
18:28
like justice and hope and and and all
18:30
these enlightenment and and everything
18:32
else. These are all human emotions. And
18:34
I know somebody made the argument that
18:37
uh yeah, it's because, you know, angels
18:40
and demons were our parents, but not all
18:43
of them were, right? Not not all of them
18:46
agreed to it. Like the the primevals had
18:48
no hand in it.
18:49
>> Um a good chunk of the angels, like
18:52
especially like the the Saraphim level
18:54
didn't like and yet we manifest their
18:57
emotions, no problem. So I I just I find
19:00
that fascinating.
19:02
>> Yeah, I do find it fascinating, too. I
19:03
don't I don't think it's because we're
19:06
born from angel and demon that we have
19:08
these emotions. I think these emotions
19:10
were there in the original primordial
19:12
Anu
19:13
>> because he was everything.
19:14
>> I agreed. Yeah.
19:15
>> Everything.
19:16
>> And the thing about like if you look at
19:18
the the the the primes and the lessers,
19:20
the the seven total evils,
19:23
>> you'll see each of the primes has a has
19:26
like a understudy or protege except for
19:30
Diablo who has two. You're
19:33
>> because if you think about Go ahead.
19:35
>> I was gonna say you're hitting on
19:36
exactly where I was kind of going with
19:37
this though too is like I don't think
19:40
it's a mistake that the prime like the
19:42
the prime being Anu had all these things
19:45
and that the coming together of angels
19:47
and demons breeds something that is
19:48
closer to Anu than
19:49
>> Yeah. Because you literally are bringing
19:52
forth the being that severed himself to
19:54
try to be perfect. And in there's a
19:57
great line in Diablo II when you're
20:00
talking to Tisa about when she's like
20:02
like what is it? What is going on with
20:03
Andariel? She's like she is in a she is
20:06
you know you cannot understand her pain.
20:09
She was once part of something and now
20:11
she is not.
20:13
And that's something that has never
20:15
really been dealt with. The reason
20:17
Tathamett attacked Anu was wasn't just
20:22
hatred, but it was hatred, but it was
20:25
also fear, terror
20:27
>> of of what had been done, the suffering
20:30
and anguish and pain that were caused.
20:33
The sin of rejecting half of yourself
20:36
and the destruction was what she sought
20:39
to do because it was unbearable. in the
20:43
process of trying to perfect itself, Anu
20:45
literally took half of itself and gouged
20:49
it out. And it's not like, you know, for
20:52
all that, you know, the the primevals
20:54
are horrific monsters and and you know,
20:57
they are literally arch fiend. Are the
20:59
things they sum up always bad? Is it
21:01
always wrong to be afraid? Is it always
21:03
wrong to hate something? Is it never
21:06
admissible, you know, permissible to
21:08
destroy things? Because we do those we
21:10
destroy things to live. Yeah, you know,
21:13
and well, it's the old adage about fire,
21:15
right? Like fire is this beautiful thing
21:17
that can destroy, but it also gives you
21:20
safety and allows you to live by cooking
21:22
your food and keeping you from like
21:25
dying to the cold. Like,
21:27
>> and then you look at the angels, too.
21:29
Like, look at um everyone's favorite uh
21:32
Oh, bloody heck. I want to say Inner
21:34
Strandavia cuz I'm stuck on dinosaurs,
21:36
but uh the one that was trying to kill
21:39
Tyel for his crimes, Imperious. Yeah,
21:41
Imperious.
21:42
>> When Imperious
21:44
calls himself valor, but he's also hotty
21:48
and self-righteous and really quick to
21:51
violence.
21:52
>> Well, I mean, even even even beyond
21:55
that, like hope hope can also be a
21:57
poison, too, right? Hope can make you
21:59
hold on to things longer than you should
22:01
and longer than is healthy for you.
22:02
>> And you know, fate, knowing your fate,
22:05
if you assume you know your fate, then
22:07
you can't take actions that are outside
22:09
of it.
22:10
>> Yeah. Or look what justice being justice
22:13
did to Tyial. He gave up himself.
22:17
>> Like he one point he even says, "You
22:19
cannot judge me. I am justice itself."
22:22
And he had to give that up to do what
22:25
was just. Um and in the search for
22:28
wisdom, Maliel turned himself into a
22:31
nightmare.
22:32
>> Yeah.
22:33
And the contempt that the the Reapers
22:37
showed uh was pretty, you know, this
22:40
this wasn't like, you know, it it's it's
22:42
very fascinating to see how they're
22:44
mirrors of each other. And we've talked
22:45
about it before how there's a connection
22:47
that's still there between the the
22:49
angels and the demons. Uh I know for a
22:52
fact uh this is a story beat from the
22:56
coming season, season 14. Uh but it's
22:58
they've done they've done, you know,
23:00
talks on it. It's out there. This is not
23:02
a this is not a surprise. The reapers
23:04
are coming back. If the reapers are
23:07
coming back, how
23:08
>> Mhm.
23:09
>> they was they were servants of Maliel.
23:12
Is Malio coming back? How? Unless much
23:16
like the demons, an angel also comes
23:19
back. We just we know that. But they
23:22
usually come back. The the essence of
23:24
what they were comes back, but their
23:25
mind doesn't. Their their consciousness
23:27
doesn't. At least that's what we've been
23:28
told. But we're going into this and we
23:32
the the whole deal with all of this,
23:34
everything to do with angels and demons,
23:37
the Lilith's role in this, the the fact
23:39
of, you know, the power of the Nephilim,
23:41
the fact that they are closer to what
23:43
Anu was than either angels or demons.
23:46
The fact that it looks like a demon may
23:49
not be able to change. That's what
23:51
Rathma kept saying, but it sure as heck
23:55
looked like Lilith changed. Well, see,
23:57
and I I don't know that I believe Rothma
24:00
on this one because we've literally seen
24:02
angels turn to demons. It was a thing
24:05
that happened in Diablo III. And it's
24:07
not the only time that's happened.
24:09
Literally, an angel fell to the hells
24:12
and became a demon, which we we
24:15
literally talked about this in the
24:16
Diablo episode of the idea that a demon
24:20
or a being of the hells could transcend
24:24
and go through the crystal arch. We I
24:26
mean you brought this up specifically
24:29
that that might have been Diablo's goal
24:31
all along was to you know essentially
24:35
force himself through the the the
24:37
crystal spine uh the crystal arch and
24:40
like be reborn even more powerful.
24:42
>> Yeah. Because it would have it would be
24:43
like Anu. It would have both essences.
24:46
It would have the complete essences of
24:48
of all seven evils and then it would be
24:50
have access to the power of
24:52
>> Yeah. Cuz at that time they were he was
24:54
all the primes in the black soul stone,
24:55
right?
24:56
>> He was all of them. He was
24:58
>> all seven. All seven. Yeah. So like it
25:00
it it would have been Man, we're going
25:04
off on a wild tangent here and and I
25:05
know you all love it, but like this also
25:07
then starts making me think of if that's
25:09
their natural inclination, if that makes
25:13
sense.
25:14
>> Yeah. If if the if ultimately if not for
25:17
the actions of Anu, they wouldn't be
25:20
angels and demons. there'd be this one
25:22
entity. He severed himself or they
25:25
severed themsel in order to understand
25:28
and experience something where they
25:30
weren't everything. And in the in the
25:33
cause of that, we've got a you know, the
25:35
severance is what causes a lot of
25:37
problems. In a weird sort of way, Anu is
25:40
the architect of all evil because Anu
25:42
did this horrible thing
25:44
>> and h left half of himself on the
25:47
cutting room floor essentially thinking
25:49
he could just walk away from it.
25:51
>> And instead it got up and said, "Beep,
25:54
no, I am this monster now and I'm going
25:57
to destroy you for what you've done to
25:59
me." And in the process, they made
26:01
heaven and hell. And it's their ruins
26:03
that makes the angels and demons. And
26:06
the angels and demons were just
26:07
repeating the same fight. And that's the
26:10
thing that Lilith from the beginning,
26:12
that's the thing she wanted to end.
26:14
Yeah. Because she she understood what it
26:17
is, which means and maybe and maybe this
26:21
is the argument or or something that
26:24
maybe fits in here a little bit more
26:26
that Lilith may have always been
26:28
changing since the moment she birthed
26:31
humanity, right? since the Nephilim
26:33
first walks since she first gave birth
26:35
with us and she first understood you
26:38
know Congress with an angel I don't know
26:39
other way to put it um her view has
26:44
expanded and I think that works the
26:46
other way too cuz one of the other
26:47
things I've been thinking about a lot
26:49
especially since going through Diablo I
26:51
and the quest line and doing the
26:52
memories uh in doing the Anarius stuff
26:56
is that Anarius was a very resolute
27:00
being was somebody who I would not
27:03
expect to break uh to even the continued
27:07
torture of uh you know a prime evil
27:11
especially a prime evil who was
27:12
continually trying to take over the
27:14
world and had other things to do with
27:16
their time and I'm wondering if time
27:19
with Lilith time with demons time
27:23
co-mingling uh altered Anarius to the
27:26
point where he could feel doubt that he
27:30
could see something other than than his,
27:33
you know, inflapable faith. Because one
27:36
of the things that I think is
27:37
interesting is the angels when you start
27:39
going back to them and you start talking
27:40
about them is they're rigid. They are,
27:44
and we've seen this, they do not adapt.
27:47
That is one of their like big character
27:49
traits. Um, Tyel had to become mortal to
27:54
adapt, if that makes sense.
27:56
>> Right.
27:56
>> Oh, no. But here, you know what you've
27:58
just done?
27:59
>> Go for it. You've just explained exactly
28:02
why Mal did everything he did.
28:04
>> Yes.
28:05
>> And it's similar. Mal was studying not
28:09
sanctuary or the mortals. He was
28:11
studying the world stone.
28:12
>> Yeah. A fallen angel a fallen angel who
28:15
had lost his connection to the crystal
28:16
arch by the way because that's what
28:18
reaper that's what reapers are
28:20
>> canonically.
28:21
>> And Miel
28:23
by studying it he couldn't find it when
28:26
they got when they took it to use it.
28:28
and he went to instead to the chamber
28:31
and that's where he was finding human
28:33
souls there. People who had died a lot
28:36
of them
28:36
>> probably my thought has always been that
28:39
the majority of those spirits that he
28:41
was finding were the original Nephilim,
28:43
the ones that from the purge, the ones
28:45
that didn't survive cuz we know many of
28:47
them did, but they didn't.
28:48
>> Well, yeah, because the uh because the
28:50
the drowned being the the bodies of the
28:53
the first fallen Nephilim, but they're
28:55
just the bodies. We don't know what
28:57
happened to their primal lessons.
28:59
>> Yeah. And going back to the worldstone
29:01
chamber makes a lot of sense because it
29:03
would be like tracing your way back to
29:05
where this thing sat because the world
29:08
stone made pandemonium.
29:10
>> It did. Yes, it did.
29:11
>> Pandemonium wasn't just some thing.
29:14
Pandemonium was the first realm that got
29:16
created by the World Stone. And as Joe
29:19
has pointed out many times, we know
29:22
there were others. We've we've some of
29:23
them lasted like a like, you know, soap
29:25
bubbles, but that doesn't mean they all
29:27
did.
29:28
>> And that doesn't mean they're all gone
29:29
either, right? Like we we we talked
29:31
about this before with like the swamps
29:34
uh uh and and like other
29:37
>> which are like ethereal otherworldly
29:39
places that are connected to sanctuary
29:42
but feel outside of sanctuary. The realm
29:46
where the tree sat, uh, the tree of
29:48
whispers, uh, feels ethereal and
29:52
otherworldly because it is. Remember the
29:54
quest line we took to have to get there?
29:57
>> Mhm. The giant serpent that we had to,
29:59
uh, go through and, uh, you know, go
30:02
through a dream state, and I'm air
30:04
quoting really hard here, dream state,
30:06
uh, to interact with it and best its
30:09
challenges. And then we learn at the end
30:12
of it once, you know, and again, mild
30:14
spoilers. I'll make sure that one gets
30:15
put up at the um when we go to burn the
30:18
tree down, we're literally talking to
30:20
the witch friend we made. And she's
30:22
like, "No, the serpent's gone." Like it
30:24
it just it just sauntered off somewhere.
30:26
We don't know where it went. Um I have
30:28
no desire to go find it. Uh I wasn't
30:30
exactly the biggest fan of it. Didn't
30:31
want to be swallowed by it. Uh but it's
30:33
gone now. Uh it as soon as Meto uh was
30:36
sealed away, it no longer exists. And
30:39
like why would it need to exist? Why
30:42
would it need to be there? And why would
30:44
it choose to go away while Meisto was
30:47
still around but then disappear when
30:49
it's gone if unless it was protecting an
30:51
other realm or a pocket dimension that
30:53
it didn't want to fall to corruption or
30:55
influence of hatred because it was also
30:58
unaffected completely by everything that
31:00
was going on around it. Literally a hell
31:02
tide could be going on around it, but it
31:04
would be this perfect center of calm
31:06
with nothing going on. Uh, it's just
31:09
it's it's weird how it works out like
31:11
that. And it just I always constantly
31:13
think about that that like all these
31:16
strange regions are not actually part of
31:18
Sanctuary. They're just sort of Lego
31:20
blocks like leftover bits put onto the
31:23
main structure.
31:23
>> Well, here's another thing to think
31:24
about then. When we get to Sco and we go
31:27
see the Oracle for the first time, we
31:29
ride up a road that is a snake.
31:31
>> Yeah.
31:32
>> It is a paved, you know, it's a paved
31:34
road, but it's like scales. And you know
31:36
when you ask about it, one of the uh one
31:39
of the oracles, not not the main one,
31:41
but one of the seers says, "Oh yes, uh
31:44
when he when she first came to Scovos,
31:47
the uh first oracle, you know, had to
31:51
walk the serpent's path." And you've
31:54
walked the serpent's path. You've
31:56
literally done this. You were following
31:58
a big a gigantic serpent through a
32:01
through a place that doesn't even quite
32:02
seem to be part of the sanctuary. If any
32:04
other place on Sanctuary feels like it's
32:07
not a part of Sanctuary, it's Sco.
32:09
>> Mhm.
32:10
>> But that's because Scoos feels like it's
32:13
like Sanctuary itself is like a pearl
32:16
that grew around Sco. Sco is the place
32:19
that there's a reason that Scoos is
32:23
where Lilith and Anarius created the
32:26
pool. You know, there's a reason that it
32:29
was there. And I'm telling you right
32:30
now, uh there's a reason that the World
32:33
Stone Chamber was not in
32:36
>> Scoh
32:38
>> and that's that's because somebody and
32:40
we know who uh Bulcathos and Shiakiar
32:44
aka Vasili took the world stone and put
32:48
it up in that mountain in Ariat and
32:51
said, "Yeah." And you'll note that
32:53
there's both in Scots Glenn and
32:56
originally um in what is now the ruins
33:00
of of Saharon had those same weird first
33:04
one ruins, first born, what do you want
33:06
to call them?
33:07
>> The same ruins that we see when we're
33:09
chasing Lilith. Lilith goes to the
33:11
necropolis which was obviously built by
33:14
Rathma. Here, here's another thing that
33:15
I've been thinking about a lot too
33:17
recently, especially with the Firstborn
33:18
architecture thing and and again going
33:21
back to the book, going back to what was
33:23
described there, going back to what we
33:25
see in game, going back to the questing
33:27
and and everything else like you're
33:28
saying, and even going back to Diablo
33:30
II, like one of the things that I think
33:33
is really interesting, and I I give
33:35
credit to the Diablo team for doing this
33:37
as it's not just consistent world
33:39
building. I think there's intention
33:41
behind it. uh is that you interact with
33:45
a lot of firstborn Nephilim architecture
33:49
throughout the entirety of what you're
33:51
doing in uh you know Diablo in general
33:55
and if you go look at Sco look at these
33:57
other places go elsewhere you're going
34:00
to see remnants of it you're going to
34:01
see the same type of statues the the the
34:04
workings of fantastical stone sculptures
34:07
uh all throughout sanctuary which again
34:10
people can be very very skilled
34:13
But like I'll just use the statues of
34:15
Lilith as an example, the altars of
34:17
Lilith. Ain't nobody spending time in a
34:20
hidden grove in the middle of a frozen
34:22
wasteland carving a beautiful picture of
34:26
a a beautiful likeness of their mother.
34:28
Like I don't care how devoted you are,
34:30
it ain't happening. Um these are trying
34:33
to think of how to phrase this. There is
34:35
more to what is Nephilim architecture
34:40
than I think we realize. And I think
34:43
that this may have also led to some
34:44
links with Zolan Cool and the Herodum
34:48
experiments that yielded pocket
34:50
dimensions.
34:52
>> And I think all of this is tied together
34:54
because when you're going through the
34:55
pocket dimensions, what does that
34:56
architecture look like? Looks a lot like
34:58
the Acropolis. Looks a lot like the
35:01
those Nephilim runes that we find
35:02
literally everywhere. It looks like a
35:04
lot of those runes where we find uh you
35:07
know spirits like coalesing and
35:10
congregating. Looking at you Karass
35:12
sewers
35:14
um like all these little things seem to
35:17
be nods to the Nephilim and why they
35:21
didn't just cease to exist when they
35:23
died and not just because they went back
35:25
to the world stone but there might be
35:28
more to it. there might be more
35:30
intention with the architecture
35:32
and that may be something we haven't
35:35
really dove into like Matt and I were
35:37
talking about the tower in the pit,
35:38
right? Like
35:40
>> there's very obvious Nephilim
35:41
architecture in there and I think that's
35:44
intentional.
35:45
>> When you get to the end of the tower
35:47
storyline for now anyway, you you
35:49
definitely get a sense of why that might
35:51
be. One of the things about Zolton Cool
35:53
we got to talk about though and then I'm
35:54
I'm going to move on to the dagger stuff
35:56
and so forth. Zultan Cool, I honestly
36:00
think, is another example of someone who
36:02
got bent by examining things
36:05
>> he he nec shouldn't necessarily be
36:07
looking at. And I want to point this out
36:09
when he's looking at the things that
36:11
would become the soul stone. The first
36:13
thing he says when you're and this is in
36:16
this in Diablo 4, but you go and find
36:18
the the thoughts of each of the original
36:20
four Nephilim that that Tyel recruited
36:23
and Zultan is, you know, one of the
36:26
four. And when you're looking over his
36:28
effectively his notes, uh it's more like
36:31
a diary that he's like reading out loud,
36:33
but he's talking about how when he
36:35
studied the soul stone fragments, it
36:37
took him weeks to get a breakthrough,
36:39
but then finally he realized that it was
36:41
like they were perfectly nothing. That's
36:43
why they were they were enormously
36:45
powerful, but they were powerful because
36:47
they were like nothing. There was
36:49
nothingness inside them. And that
36:50
nothingness could hold things. And
36:52
that's how he basically got the idea of
36:55
how to use the soul stones properly. And
36:57
that's if that doesn't sound like he
36:58
they're pieces of the void or connected
37:01
to the void in some way like artificial
37:04
void. And what is the void? We don't
37:07
know other than it is not a place. It is
37:10
you can't leave it once you go there.
37:12
It's better than the soul stones because
37:14
it can only be you can only be pulled
37:16
out by something that's not in the void.
37:19
If you were in the void, you are in the
37:20
void until somebody from outside the
37:22
void yanks you out. Um, and that
37:24
requires a ritual.
37:25
>> There may be something tied up there
37:27
with uh the original Anu being like as
37:30
far as their existence is concerned as
37:32
well too.
37:33
>> Yeah. It may be the place they left.
37:35
>> Yeah.
37:35
>> Because they were in a no place you
37:37
>> and because they're not there anymore,
37:39
it leaves a void behind, hence it being
37:42
called the void. Yep. Yep. I I think
37:44
it's the book material is the one that
37:46
really talks about how when Anu Anu
37:50
first existed he was like inside of a
37:51
diamond egg. Uh and you you know that
37:54
the eye of Anu which is the world stone
37:57
which is where the pieces of the soul
37:58
stones come from. It's like why is the
38:01
eye of Anu a big rock?
38:04
[laughter]
38:05
You know what I mean? Why is the spine
38:07
of Anu a giant crystal arch? Why is
38:10
everything that got pulled off of Anu
38:13
like this sizzling fire and blackness?
38:16
Like what, you know, if it feels like
38:18
there's an elemental aspect to all this
38:20
that we've never really gotten to. And
38:22
the fact that the spirits in Diablo I
38:25
almost exist in a in a complete other
38:28
the the realm that they live in is like
38:31
the opposite of the void in every
38:32
conceivable way.
38:34
>> It's continuous change. It's continuous
38:37
dynamism. It's continuous power. And you
38:40
you find myself wondering like you know
38:42
what if there were polls to this thing
38:44
but and I think that Cool was kind of
38:47
onto that track. That's why he made the
38:48
black soul stone. Like he wasn't just
38:50
going to put the evils in there. He was
38:52
going to get them all if he could.
38:54
>> Angels included.
38:54
>> He wanted to put Yeah. He wanted to put
38:56
all the angels and all the demons in
38:57
this and so they'd finally shut up and
38:59
let us just be, you know, cuz it's not
39:02
like the angels like humans any better.
39:04
>> They just aren't acting.
39:06
>> # zolultton cool was right. That's what
39:07
I'm hearing.
39:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. I've, you know, we've we've
39:09
talked about it before. A lot of times
39:11
it's like the problem with beings in
39:13
sanctuary sometimes is that even the
39:16
ones that are technically right go so
39:18
far in the pursuit of their rightness
39:20
that it's just like Lilith, look, I
39:21
understand where you're coming from, but
39:24
you just murdered a whole lot of people
39:25
for nothing. You could have just No, I'm
39:27
I'm sorry. I'm going to have to stop
39:29
you. Uh yeah, but you know, don't
39:32
disagree with your ideas, just your just
39:34
your method. Uh, but going back to the
39:36
thing about the dagger, I don't know
39:38
that either, but I doubt seriously that
39:41
we have it for the very simple reason
39:43
that I feel like in order for it to be
39:45
an effective lock that you can't just
39:49
keep the key after you use it, if that
39:51
makes sense. But I don't recall them
39:52
actually saying whether or not you still
39:54
have the dagger. I know that when you
39:56
see Meto go through the the, you know,
39:59
get stabbed and the big beam of light
40:01
goes through him and he gets sucked into
40:03
that weird tapestry like skin thing. Uh,
40:09
I don't see you holding the dagger
40:10
afterwards, but that doesn't, you know,
40:12
that could just be creative license or
40:14
whatever. It's hard, it's hard to say on
40:15
that subject. I think it would scare
40:18
both heaven and hell if they kn if you
40:20
you did still have it and they knew it,
40:22
you know, because what if they go around
40:25
stabbing all of us with that thing, you
40:27
know, that would be a problem. But I
40:29
don't know that that's the case. Um,
40:32
>> well, the the interesting thing about it
40:34
is even
40:36
>> Okay, so we know that it was made from a
40:38
bone from Lilith that was honed into a
40:41
blade and then given to Rothma, uh, or
40:44
at least attempted to be given to Rothma
40:46
and then he broke into a bunch of
40:47
pieces. But here's the interesting thing
40:50
about that. It's just Lilith's bone as
40:54
far as we know. There's plenty of other
40:56
demons. There's plenty of other
40:58
primevals. We've killed a bunch of them
41:00
a bunch of times. We've had access to
41:02
like the bones of of Diablo more than a
41:05
once. I mean, I literally have Diablo's
41:08
skull with the black soul stone sitting
41:10
in it on top of my computer right now.
41:13
Um like like canonically, we have access
41:17
to uh demon bones, which I think is also
41:20
interesting because of the two demons
41:23
have bones. Angels have no caporeal
41:26
form. They're beings of pure energy that
41:29
take resonance inside of armor. Demons,
41:31
however, are flesh and bone, which is
41:34
very fascinating to think about. Um, and
41:37
then the demon or the angel that became
41:39
a demon was reborn in flesh, which is
41:42
also interesting to think about. What's
41:44
that?
41:45
>> That was all, by the way.
41:46
>> Yeah, I Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it is
41:51
wild. Um, as far as everything goes. Uh,
41:56
but again, we have access to other
41:58
bones. We don't know what ritual was
42:01
used, what magic was used that's able to
42:03
do it. And if it is just the fact that
42:05
demon bones can let you do this, I mean,
42:08
even if the dagger is gone, we can
42:10
recreate it now. We have found
42:13
>> cube that we've done at least once.
42:15
>> We we literally put it together with a
42:16
Roger cube. And if I remember my Roger
42:19
Cube lore, at least from the second
42:22
game, and I don't know if they've
42:23
touched upon this in the in Diablo I
42:25
yet, that thing remembers recipes, baby.
42:28
Like, it is it is a lexicanum of
42:31
everything that you've ever used it for,
42:32
which is one of the reasons that Harajum
42:34
used it. Like all of their alchemical
42:36
and and transmutation stuff that they
42:39
did with it was essentially catalog
42:41
inside of the cubes, whatever cube you
42:43
used. So, we used it to put together a a
42:47
dagger that would pierce the veil and
42:49
send Meisto back to uh you know or send
42:51
Meto to the void. We have that cube
42:54
still. It's kind of sitting there in
42:55
Temis. Uh we could do it again
42:57
theoretically.
42:59
>> Also, two other things to consider on
43:00
that subject. One is that just a
43:03
fragment of the blade was used by an
43:05
angel to banish Lilith and that because
43:09
he didn't have the full blade, he
43:11
couldn't do it right. So he made a huge
43:13
terrifying hole in our reality, but he
43:16
did it. He banished her to the void with
43:19
just a chunk of it.
43:21
>> Is that because just because you can do
43:24
that with any demon? Was it because as
43:26
mother of sanctuary, she had unique
43:29
power to do
43:31
>> and the father of Sanctuary having a
43:33
link to Sanctuary potentially could have
43:35
been a cause there too. Yeah, I see.
43:36
>> And does that mean is that why we had to
43:39
be the ones using the dagger? because
43:41
then we have the Nephilim and therefore
43:42
we have the connection of them. Yeah.
43:44
>> Yeah. Maybe it wouldn't work unless it
43:46
was a being like a mortal being. So
43:48
that's one possibility. Another
43:50
possibility is that the dagger being
43:53
made from Lilis blood and bone. She even
43:55
says, you know, this cost me to make
43:57
this. It might have been always intended
44:00
by her to be used on Meisto. That's why
44:04
she made the thing and gave it to
44:05
Rathma, right? She gave it to Rathma and
44:08
he didn't want to use it. He even said,
44:10
you know, uh they made a point of, you
44:12
know, I'm I'm afraid to completely
44:14
annihilate it, but I, you know, I broke
44:16
it, so I wouldn't be tempted to use it.
44:18
That might be a lot of intentionality to
44:21
this thing.
44:22
>> Think about think about what he says too
44:24
when you're going to the memory. I will
44:25
I was not going to be her weapon.
44:27
>> Yeah. And he even at one point says, you
44:29
know, finally she's got the child she
44:31
was looking when he when he's talking to
44:32
about to you about her and you're going
44:34
to use you're going to step up and use
44:36
the knife. you're going you're willing
44:38
to be her weapon if it ends this. He
44:42
wasn't willing to do that. Yeah, there's
44:44
a lot to the possibilities behind the
44:46
dagger and why it's gone if it's gone.
44:49
Uh yeah, did it have to consume the
44:52
thing in order to, you know, open the
44:55
rift properly? Because again, Lilith
44:57
didn't get sent through it properly. It
44:59
wasn't a full weapon when Inarius used
45:02
it. And also, isn't it kind of wild that
45:06
Anarius stole from his own kid? Like,
45:09
oh, yeah. I don't I don't know. There's
45:10
there's a ton of this stuff that that is
45:12
bouncing around. In terms of your final
45:14
question, though, um I don't know if
45:16
Joe, you're still here, right?
45:18
>> Yeah, I'm right here, man.
45:20
>> Sometimes I can't hear you and I don't
45:21
know what's going on. Um here's the
45:23
thing, though. You you you make the
45:24
point that the title evil hasn't shown
45:26
up and the end cinematic felt like an
45:28
ending. Are there rumblings about future
45:29
expansions? Uh, not only are there
45:32
rumblings about future expansions in
45:33
terms of we know there's going to be at
45:35
least one more um we know they're
45:38
working on one uh but also there's a
45:41
quest in Sco after you beat meto where
45:45
you talk to um the the angel that
45:48
created the sightless eye. Her name's
45:51
Lyander. Their name is Lyander, I
45:53
shouldn't say. But Lyander and Filios,
45:55
who was the one of the Nephilim, one of
45:57
the firstborn who didn't get murdered
45:59
during the purge. Uh he lost a lot of
46:01
friends, but he didn't get Think of him
46:03
as Soos's version of Vaseli or um
46:08
Bulcathos or Isu, the the other famous
46:11
Nephilim besides Wrathma. Uh obviously
46:14
Wrathmo too, you know, Rathmo was on
46:16
Scobos because he was the first of the
46:18
firstborn, but Filios and and Lehander
46:22
had a relationship and it was a
46:25
relationship that started off Lander was
46:27
one of the angels that came to Sanctuary
46:31
with Anarius and Lilith. Um there were
46:34
other angels and demons and those those
46:36
angels and demons were the primary
46:37
targets of the purge. uh because the the
46:41
angels and started killing off Nephilim,
46:44
the demons were like, "Yeah, you know
46:46
what? We we're afraid of these guys.
46:47
This is our place we made to hide from
46:49
the war. The Nephilim are terrifying
46:51
because they could bring the war to us."
46:54
And so they joined in. Neil started
46:56
murdering them and that's when she got
47:00
banished. All that happened on Scovos.
47:03
That's the place where that happened.
47:05
Um, so you're talking to likeander and
47:07
likeander's like, "Look, the the
47:08
sightless eye. It's not going to help
47:10
you. It It's not built for what you're
47:12
trying to use it for. I will cleanse it
47:15
one time so you can get your final
47:17
answers out of your vision quest that
47:20
you've been trying to do, see lady, but
47:22
then it's done." The thing is not it was
47:24
not meant to give visions. It was meant
47:27
so that I could stay selfishly in
47:29
contact with someone I loved, even
47:32
though to do so could risk the the
47:35
angels finding this. Now, of course,
47:37
they know about it. There's no purpose
47:38
to it. Filios is gone. I don't have
47:41
anyone to talk to. This thing is no
47:43
longer a thing that I'm going to keep
47:45
going. But I'll do this one thing, you
47:47
know, because the person standing next
47:48
to you literally just just sent Meto
47:51
somewhere else. So, yeah. Okay. And she
47:54
does fix it. And the person gets her
47:56
vision and her vision is all about
47:58
horrible things happening. And she
48:00
specifically says, you know, people are,
48:04
you know, people are are wailing and and
48:06
they are, you know, consumed with, you
48:08
know, they're consumed, but not by not
48:11
by hatred but by terror specifically. It
48:14
says terror. So yeah, has there a
48:17
mention of Diablo? Yeah. In the game,
48:20
you you have a whole thing about how
48:22
terror will come to to annihilate the
48:24
world. And there's also like multiple
48:25
things about how hatred begins
48:26
destruction begets terror. Like that's
48:28
that's said in that goes back to the
48:30
original campaign.
48:32
>> Yeah. Like that was that was pretty I
48:34
think that's like some of the first
48:35
lines actually spoken in the game when
48:37
you play Diablo. Like it's
48:39
>> I know it's Yeah.
48:40
>> Go ahead.
48:41
>> No, I'm just agreeing with you. I'm just
48:43
going Yep. Yep. So yeah. Um I I will say
48:46
that like again the the the two things
48:48
that I think uh are are interesting here
48:51
is uh will what we have scare heaven and
48:56
hell maybe. Uh if anything I think it
48:59
might entice them to actually interact
49:01
more now because heaven now potentially
49:03
has a tool to end uh what they see as
49:07
the vile threat of the hells and and end
49:09
the fighting and hell's going to think
49:11
the same thing. Uh, and why the titular
49:13
evil hasn't shown up yet is it's not his
49:15
time, right? Like it Matt Matt's talked
49:18
about this, we've talked about this.
49:20
Diablo II when the black soul stone, you
49:25
know, was shoved into Leah, when Leah
49:27
marched on heaven, uh, with all of the
49:30
evils sucked up into the soul stone
49:33
with, uh, you know, stupid weird
49:36
xenomorph, uh, alien looking Diablo
49:41
given all with boobs given all the power
49:43
of all the evils, which is all the evils
49:45
always wanted. Uh, literally Diablo got
49:48
what all the evils had been fighting
49:50
amongst themselves for, which was
49:51
unifying under one terrible entity. Uh,
49:55
and got further than they had ever
49:56
gotten before. Um, yeah. Smashed right
49:58
into smacked Imperious aside like a
50:01
annoying dog and began attacking the
50:05
Crystal Arch. And Joe made a really
50:07
Joe's point that he made that I had, you
50:09
know, kind of hinted at before. That's
50:12
that was happening.
50:13
>> Yeah.
50:14
>> They were on the arch. And if if they
50:16
whatever they were doing wasn't
50:18
destroying it, it was just taking out
50:20
all the angels.
50:21
>> Yeah. And and and what we saw during
50:24
that time frame, just to go back to it,
50:25
because again, there are people who have
50:27
come to this like Diablo 4 is their
50:29
first game. They never played two or
50:31
three um and they didn't know what this
50:33
happened. And some people haven't done
50:34
it in a while. During that whole thing,
50:36
as we're running through heaven, angels
50:39
are being corrupted. They're not dying,
50:43
per se. Yes, they're there. Some of them
50:44
are falling from the skies. Yes, there's
50:46
bodies in places, but some of them are
50:48
being fused into flesh pillars like you
50:50
would see in the hells. Uh some are
50:52
turning into wriggling masses of decay.
50:54
And and again, going back to this whole
50:57
thing I said earlier in the episode
50:58
about isn't it funny that demons are
51:00
made of flesh and bone and angels are
51:02
all just made out of pure light? Well,
51:04
we in Diablo II during that last push of
51:07
of of chasing down Diablo, that line was
51:11
starting to get blurred. These entities
51:14
were starting to essentially become like
51:17
Matt said, there was this corruption of
51:19
the arch and all the angels are tied to
51:20
the arch. Imagine what would happen if
51:25
the crystal arch, which is the spine of
51:27
of Anu, was then essentially covered
51:31
with the flesh of of Tathamett, right?
51:33
Covered in the flesh of of all that
51:35
demonic goo. Would the original being of
51:38
Anu stand back up? Would reality unmake
51:41
itself in the wake of that? Um, we don't
51:45
know. I don't know. But whatever Diablo
51:48
was doing was not destroying the arch
51:50
for sure.
51:50
>> There's also something else to think
51:51
about now that you've said that Tyel is
51:55
flesh and blood.
51:56
>> He is.
51:57
>> He's not necessarily human. He's not
51:59
corrupted. He doesn't have any demon
52:01
essence, but he is flesh and blood. And
52:04
he became flesh and blood the moment he
52:06
ripped the armor off of himself.
52:09
>> Mhm. and declared, you know, I will not
52:12
this is not right and I'm not going to
52:14
stand for it. Which implies that what
52:16
was it exactly that Anu devested itself
52:20
of to become the perfect diamond
52:23
warrior, this crystallin light entity?
52:25
Was it flesh? Did Anu shuck a body off
52:29
and it was that body that rose up as
52:31
Tath? Like an undead thing that refused
52:34
to be parted from its the thing that was
52:36
its life, its heart, its soul. like that
52:39
that's there's ways to look at this
52:41
thing and the fact that yeah demons are
52:44
made out of flesh and bone and angels
52:46
are not do but you know we've got at
52:50
least one angel who now is and then you
52:54
think about the fact that an angel
52:55
turned into a demon to turned into
52:57
Israel Israel became like a is reborn in
53:00
flesh as Joe put it think about what
53:02
that says about the the status of he of
53:05
human life on sanctuary like what
53:07
sanctuary is and what it means for the
53:11
cosmology of all this. The fact that the
53:13
Nephilim and the firstborn, whatever you
53:15
want to call them, were like flesh and
53:18
blood like demons, but had minds and
53:22
souls that could, you know, think of all
53:24
the stuff that angels think about. They
53:26
could care about valor and honor and
53:30
concepts that the angels embody less
53:33
than think of. like they can't choose
53:37
what they are and only by starting to be
53:40
able to choose what they are. Like you
53:43
see Lilith and and Inarius, they're
53:45
almost perfectly balanced in this. Both
53:47
of them placed in a in a way a place
53:49
they couldn't escape. Both of them
53:52
tormented by this conditions they found
53:54
themselves in. But it's it again it
53:57
isn't the torment that seems to break
53:59
them. Like Anarius breaks because he
54:02
wants to take it back. Yeah.
54:05
>> And Lilith doesn't break because she
54:07
never she only gets more confirmed
54:10
having Wraithma. There's that bit in the
54:13
very beginning of of the campaign for
54:16
original campaign where she says, "I do
54:18
not know if you would have chosen the to
54:20
to join me in the world we're going to
54:22
make, but I would have held your place."
54:25
It's like saying she loves him seems
54:27
weird when she is the demonst of hate.
54:30
But we've always said hate and love
54:31
aren't that far apart. No, they're the
54:33
they're opposite sides of the same coin.
54:35
>> Um
54:36
>> and [clears throat] she clearly does
54:37
love him.
54:37
>> Yeah. I just wanted to finish one last
54:39
thought that I had here because we're
54:40
we're running out of time.
54:42
>> Yeah.
54:42
>> Um but part of the reason why I was
54:44
talking about the Crystal Arch and and
54:45
everything else with Diablo and the
54:46
Black Soulstone is I think that's a
54:49
large reason why we haven't seen a lot
54:51
of the other evils
54:53
uh really resurfacing. The lesser ones
54:56
don't require as much power to sort of
54:58
pop back up and so we have seen them but
55:01
they also aren't nearly as scary as they
55:04
were when we first faced them. Right.
55:06
>> Oh, they aren't.
55:07
>> Um they seem like weaker versions of
55:09
themselves, maybe thrown back into
55:12
reality too soon uh at somebody else's
55:15
behest. Um
55:17
>> Duriel in particular, Duriel seems
55:19
almost fragmented.
55:20
>> Yes, very much so. and and requiring a
55:24
human vessel, which is not something
55:27
Duriel needed before, which I think is
55:29
also very interesting. Um, but the other
55:33
thing that I I think too is Meisto is
55:35
the first of the primes to sort of come
55:39
back and look what it took to get him
55:42
there. We had to go shove him in a soul
55:45
stone. He wasn't born yet. He was still
55:47
in the pod,
55:48
>> right? He was he hasn't he hadn't been
55:50
fully fully fully popped out. Um then we
55:53
had to essentially he had to convince
55:56
Nelu
55:58
to take him to the tomb of Ocarat where
56:01
it's steeped in an immense amount of
56:03
spirit power. Spirit power being linked
56:06
to the Nephilim in a lot of ways which
56:09
go back and listen to our previous
56:10
episodes when we talk about the spirit
56:11
born and everything else to understand
56:12
that link. Uh, and then he's able to
56:15
take over a physical vessel steeped in
56:18
this power and then he can manifest.
56:22
Then he's reborn. That took a lot of
56:25
juice. And when you go back through it,
56:28
Diablo was the one in the driver's seat
56:30
when the black soul stone was
56:32
essentially exploded. when he was trying
56:36
to corrupt the crystal arch or do what
56:38
he was doing on his war in heaven. He
56:40
was in the driver's seat and arguably
56:41
the one expending the most energy using
56:44
the others as fuel. Sure. But because
56:46
he's in the driver's seat, he's the one
56:48
taking the brunt of the impact of all
56:51
the destruction that we visited upon
56:52
that that entities being, right? And so
56:57
he's likely going to be the last one,
57:00
which also makes sense in the cycle
57:02
while the other ones are gaining power
57:05
and coming back. So yes, destruction is
57:08
probably next on the list and they've
57:10
had tons of hints for it. And
57:12
destruction has had more than enough
57:15
energy into the universe of Sanctuary
57:18
right now after our war has waged across
57:21
the entirety of Sanctuary at this point
57:23
that we know of. uh in epic scale like
57:27
we have been waging battle at an
57:29
absolute obscene level in a lot of these
57:32
cases
57:32
>> Diablo I which means it's been close to
57:34
hundred and something years of just
57:36
fighting fighting fighting
57:38
>> and not only that but what did Malfield
57:40
do when he killed all like 90% of
57:42
humanity that world was destroyed so
57:46
>> yep
57:47
>> ball coming back makes sense next
57:50
because there's enough destructive
57:51
energy to essentially bring him back
57:54
that he can feed off of and maybe even
57:58
requires more energy. On top of that,
58:00
Diablo is arguably going to need the
58:03
most amount of energy to be reborn or to
58:06
take form again, at least in the way
58:09
that I look at it. And so, yes, we will
58:12
get Diablo in a future expansion. I'm
58:15
sure of it. But we also know that we're
58:17
going to be getting an expansion at
58:18
regular intervals that continue the
58:21
story of it. In a lot of ways, they want
58:23
to make Diablo I not necessarily the
58:26
last game, but they want to make it a
58:28
longl lasting game. Because if you think
58:30
about it, uh Diablo and Diablo Hellfire
58:34
were out. Then you had Diablo II, and
58:37
then you had uh Throne of Destru, Lord
58:39
of Destruction.
58:40
>> Uh and then nothing until Diablo II.
58:43
Diablo II got one expansion and was
58:45
done. We're already doing more. Diablo
58:48
IV releases. We've gotten two expansions
58:51
at this point and there no sign of it
58:54
slowing down, which makes sense, right?
58:58
It means that we have an engine and a
59:00
world that can continue to tell the
59:01
story in a way that these other games
59:03
never could because if you go back and
59:05
look at it, Diablo I was a miracle. that
59:10
game that game should not have existed
59:12
the way that it did when it did as well
59:14
as it did on as many platforms as it
59:17
did.
59:18
>> And then and then Diablo II releases and
59:22
becomes the proto like form the template
59:26
for ARPGs for years to come uh decades
59:30
to come lifetimes to come. It becomes
59:32
the gold standard of it right
59:34
>> at this point. Diablo II's influence is
59:37
so vast that it doesn't matter if you
59:40
say, "Oh, Diablo II is the best one or
59:42
not." Like, if you could, you know, I
59:45
personally prefer other ones because it
59:47
doesn't matter. Diablo II is a behemoth.
59:50
It is this great colossal almost idyllic
59:54
personification of an ARPG. Like, if you
59:57
were to imagine the the Plato's cave
1:00:00
story and the shadows on the wall, those
1:00:02
shadows are cast by Diablo II. like all
1:00:04
these other games are the shadows cast
1:00:06
by Diablo II, including all the other
1:00:08
Diablo games. It's just it is this and
1:00:11
it is in that game where the lore of all
1:00:13
this really starts to take off like with
1:00:16
the primevals and with sanctuary state
1:00:20
and with Meisto as this corrupting force
1:00:22
and with Bal as this destructive force.
1:00:25
Um Diablo II is really a game about how
1:00:29
the consequences of Diablo's awakening.
1:00:31
>> Yeah. and what happens because of it and
1:00:33
now we're still dealing with them.
1:00:35
>> But the the the thing the thing to keep
1:00:36
in mind when dealing with Diablo I is
1:00:39
that one, two, and three were finite
1:00:43
experiences and one and two were never
1:00:47
meant to be, you know, lifelong journeys
1:00:51
of storytelling. Um, three had
1:00:55
aspirations of it. You can see some of
1:00:57
that in its DNA and some of the
1:00:59
storytelling that it was doing. However,
1:01:02
um four is poised to continually story
1:01:06
and I think that's the important.
1:01:08
Anything else to add on that one? I
1:01:09
think we've we've spent an entire hour
1:01:11
talking about Diablo I which I'm always
1:01:13
happy to do. Uh but any parting
1:01:15
thoughts, Matt?
1:01:16
>> Uh just that I think we're going to see
1:01:19
in in the upcoming seasons stuff is
1:01:21
going to come out that's going to
1:01:22
suggest where the next expansion is
1:01:24
going.
1:01:25
>> Mhm. Uh I already I know that in season
1:01:28
14, the return of the reapers, it has
1:01:30
story implications going going way in.
1:01:33
Uh that we might find out more about
1:01:35
what happens when angels die. Uh because
1:01:39
one of them did, the one that was in
1:01:41
charge of these guys and we haven't
1:01:42
heard about him coming back. So yeah,
1:01:45
>> we'll see what we get.
1:01:47
>> Although again, we do know that angels
1:01:48
are starting to come back down to or are
1:01:50
capable of coming back to Sanctuary. So
1:01:53
things may get interesting, folks. But
1:01:55
that's going to do it for today,
1:01:57
friends. Uh thank you for joining us.
1:01:58
And as a reminder, uh Blizzard Watch is
1:02:01
made possible due to your generous
1:02:03
contributions at patreon.com/b
1:02:06
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1:02:20
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1:02:24
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thank you for helping us keep the lights
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home. So, if anything you can do to help
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1:03:28
>> But with that, friends, we'll see you
1:03:30
next week.
1:03:37
>> [music]
#Games