Up next in 10
Astalor Bloodsworn is the character at the center of the Midnight expansion's Prey feature, but this isn't the first time we've seen him. Matt, Joe, and Eric discuss his history, which dates back to the release of The Burning Crusade 20 years ago. They're answering listener questions this week, and the next topics diverge from that pretty wildly, examining how the WoW timeline gets a little wobbly when we go revisit things from the past, like old zones. But certain things we revisit in the game, specifically Hemet Nesingwary's entourage, seem to be pointing toward something sinister. Then we come to Elune and the World Trees, and how we seem to keep finding the blood of either Old Gods or the planet itself.
Put together, this week's episode seems a bit more into blood than a usual show, which isn't really a high bar.
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Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:12
table free form discussion about lore in
0:13
your favorite media. I'm your host, Joe
0:16
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:18
from Blizzard Watch, and I've got two
0:20
stunning co-hosts with me today. First,
0:23
he's uh enjoying what I have
0:25
accidentally got him into with the
0:27
summoner uh druid in Diablo I 4, which
0:30
don't tell his barbarian this. Uh seems
0:33
like he's having a good time. Matt
0:35
Rossy, how you doing, Matt?
0:36
>> Oh, you misunderstood me. I'm doing this
0:38
on my barbarian.
0:40
>> Oh, even better.
0:41
>> Yeah, it's it's a barbarian summon
0:43
build. It's an accidental I see. Here's
0:45
the thing. I didn't realize I was doing
0:47
this until you mentioned it. Then I
0:50
looked and realized that the rune setup
0:51
I had makes these spirit wolves just
0:53
appear constantly. There's always like
0:55
six of them during the fight jumping
0:57
around freezing everything. I was like,
0:58
"What if I got a weapon that buffed
1:00
that?" So I went and got Azeroth cuz it
1:02
buffs the damage you do when things are
1:05
frozen. And then I'm sitting there
1:06
going, "Oh my oh my. Now if I just get
1:09
the I can get the steel chain to do make
1:12
everything vulnerable when I hit them
1:13
with it. I can freeze everything, pull
1:15
them to me with steel chain, and just
1:17
unload one upheaval, which is volcanic
1:20
and has an extra damage component added
1:23
onto the top. I'm like, this was a
1:26
complete accident. I didn't mean to do
1:28
this, but once Joe said it, I'm like,
1:30
wait, I'm already halfway there. I can
1:32
just be a summoner barbarian. I didn't
1:34
know you could be a summoner barbarian,
1:36
but here we are.
1:38
>> Yeah, it's it's pretty good times. Uh,
1:39
but we're not here to talk about that.
1:41
Uh but before we get started, I would
1:43
like to give our second uh co-host here
1:46
a shout out uh who's currently re
1:48
rebuilding his home somewhere in
1:50
Sanctuary. Uh Eric OD. How you doing,
1:52
Eric?
1:53
>> I'm devastated, Joe. Uh I had to miss a
1:55
week and it was the Milhouse Mantorm
1:57
week. I can't believe it.
1:59
>> Yeah, I was real sad that we got to that
2:01
without you.
2:02
>> I used my Manatorm duplicator on
2:04
cooldown for 15 years and then I I'm
2:06
just unlucky enough to to miss one and
2:09
it's it. Well, see that means you at
2:11
home now have a mission which means find
2:13
more and interesting questions to ask us
2:15
about man Milhouse Mantorm. And on that
2:19
topic, if you have questions for this or
2:21
any of our podcast, please be sure to
2:23
send those in to podcastardwatch.com.
2:26
Specify the show that it is for in the
2:28
subject line as well as any special
2:30
pronunciation of your name. Uh, if you
2:32
don't want to send us an email, you can
2:33
hit us up on Discord. We have two
2:35
channels set aside for everyone. We have
2:36
the Q and Podcast questions channel open
2:39
to the public. Uh same rules apply. And
2:42
if you are a Patreon subscriber, we have
2:43
the Patreon Q and podcast questions
2:46
channel set aside for you. It's an extra
2:48
special way of us saying thank you for
2:49
helping us keep the lights on uh by
2:51
giving you a special place to put your
2:52
questions. And uh we look there first.
2:55
Uh we're going to start though with some
2:56
questions. This one first comes from
2:58
Scribbly or Scribblelet. Uh, for the
3:03
lore from your personal loa of side
3:05
quests, the prey system has been one of
3:07
my favorite additions to open world
3:09
mechanics, and it's got me thinking
3:11
about the lore of it. I missed almost
3:14
all of Shadowlands, but this seems
3:16
closely connected to the story in
3:18
Revendreth and the use of there. What do
3:21
you think? Also, who is Aelor? Do we
3:24
have more background on him? He is a
3:26
particularly ruthless character. How
3:28
could we have discover how could he have
3:30
discovered this method for stripping
3:31
power from air quote prey? What is the
3:34
likelihood of blood elves or others
3:36
utilizing his cruel methods even under
3:38
their current dire conditions? I would
3:40
be surprised if Lothar
3:43
would condone it, but perhaps you have a
3:45
different take. Oh man, I'm going to let
3:48
these guys go because boy do I have
3:50
theories. Uh Eric, you first. Uh yeah.
3:53
So uh it's I think has to be pretty
3:57
intentional that it's pretty close to a
4:00
lot of what we saw in Shadowlands and in
4:02
Revendreth
4:03
>> and that anguish is not anima. It's its
4:06
own thing. It's not quite blood magic,
4:09
but it's it's we don't we don't know
4:13
what it is, but I' I'd be surprised if
4:15
we never found out more. If it was just
4:17
if it was just Yep. aorbs just hanging
4:20
out in murder row and he was just
4:21
getting some magicy stuff from prideful
4:25
enemies and we're powering up some
4:27
defenses with it and that's all. There's
4:29
nothing to see here. That would be
4:31
shocking to me. So I think
4:34
>> well I mean we've got a history on
4:35
Aelor. We know who he is. We we do a
4:38
little bit, but this I I'll let you go
4:42
I'll let you go through it if you want,
4:43
Matt. And and but it seems odd to me
4:45
that the personality has um shifted in
4:48
flight, shall we say?
4:50
>> Well, I mean, when you first see Aelor,
4:52
he's the guy who Kalethos um sends with
4:56
>> Romoth.
4:57
>> Yeah, with Romoth to actually help get I
5:01
I don't know how to put this without
5:02
sounding bad, so I'll just say it. They
5:04
basically stuck Muru in a torture
5:06
chamber and drew the light out of him
5:08
repeatedly over and over again to
5:09
empower paladins or blood knights as
5:11
they were calling them.
5:14
And in the process he finally figured
5:18
out, you know, how to how to do, you
5:21
know, cor there was corruption on moon
5:23
crystals there. He was working on a lot
5:25
of things, but he kind of got I'm for
5:30
lack of a better word, he kind of
5:30
started to look like he was getting a
5:32
little I don't want to say crazy, but I
5:34
don't know what word you'd use. Uh
5:35
obsessed with, you know, Muru's you
5:38
know, torturing Muru uh for his power.
5:41
And you know, keep in mind as one who
5:44
sends you, if you play a paladin, ask
5:45
sends you on the quest to to learn how
5:48
to get resurrection uh resurrection
5:51
spells, raise dead, and so forth because
5:53
paladins up to that level don't have it.
5:56
At least back, this is again in in uh
5:58
burn crusade time. They didn't start
6:01
with it. They had to go get it
6:02
obviously. So did so did Paladins on the
6:04
other side, but these guys since they
6:07
didn't have a connection to the light
6:08
other than the light they were drawing
6:09
out of Muru, they had to come up with a
6:11
different way to get it. And I feel like
6:13
a lot of the stuff Alore does or has you
6:16
as a paladin doing is kind of weird.
6:21
Alore isn't he isn't the one of the ones
6:24
that that go off with Illan. When Ian
6:27
shows up to steal Maru, Aelor doesn't
6:29
help him. Alor still seems loyal to the
6:32
blood knights and he doesn't he doesn't
6:34
seem to be down with what Kaos is doing
6:37
but he gets weird and you see him in
6:39
Warlords of Dranor there's there's him
6:42
and Leadron are there
6:43
>> well this is specify this is where he
6:46
becomes a magister in Warlords of Dranor
6:48
that's when he gets the title officially
6:49
he was not a magister
6:51
>> yeah it's where he you know um I just
6:53
it's weird like he he goes there he's
6:56
helping Leaddin he's got an apprentice
6:58
of his phone and there's some kind of
7:01
incident that kills the uh I don't know
7:05
he deems he deems her unc incompetent
7:07
according to the thing I was reading and
7:08
I don't remember what else she he just
7:10
doesn't he just kick her out yeah he
7:12
just kicks her out I don't remember what
7:13
else
7:13
>> yeah it's Kalinara Sunchaser who was an
7:18
apprentice uh basically magister
7:20
apprentice uh think of magesters as not
7:23
just bureaucrats but also like magical
7:25
teachers um they take students under
7:28
their wing and they essentially raise
7:30
them in the arcane arts and and the
7:32
traditions of the blood elves in
7:34
whatever capacity they have. Uh Kalin
7:36
Sunchaser uh had an unspecified incident
7:40
in Warlords. We don't know what
7:42
happened. Um where he said, "Nope,
7:45
you're incompetent. Get out of here." Uh
7:48
suspended her as an apprentice and then
7:50
sent her back to Azeroth from Drraanor.
7:53
Um when Matt says he's weird, there's a
7:56
lot going on here. So, going back to one
7:58
of the original incidents, we talked
8:00
about the whole um explosion of the
8:03
Sunwell. Well,
8:05
that happened originally too with the
8:08
scourge invasion, right? So, he was
8:10
there for that. He was there with
8:12
Ramath. Uh he was one of uh Prince
8:15
Kelas's
8:16
uh closest advisers. Uh, and he also was
8:20
there to help Aelor and uh, sorry, help
8:23
Kalethos and Romath bind a tainted
8:27
Sunwell. So, remember when uh, Arthus
8:30
marched on the Sunwell, shoved the
8:32
remains of our little lich friend
8:34
Kelazad into there and resurrected him,
8:37
that corrupted the Sunwell. Um, so then
8:41
while they were trying to bind the
8:44
Sunwell's corruption, Lotha, Martheron,
8:47
Haldron, Brightwing, and Leaddin, uh,
8:50
were defending them, essentially keeping
8:52
them safe while they were doing the
8:53
magic that they were would do. The thing
8:56
at the time is that the Sunwell had set
8:58
us on these what are called moon
8:59
crystals. Um, it has never really been
9:01
specified fully what moon crystals are.
9:04
Some people argue that it are bits of
9:06
arcana that they took with them when
9:07
they left uh the rest of the elven
9:09
empire behind uh when the high elves
9:11
went off to the the east and uh the
9:14
night elves stayed in the west and that
9:16
it is tied to the lunas capacity. One of
9:18
the things I've seen is that they are
9:20
related to creating moon wells and it
9:23
was they used the moon well creation
9:24
ritual as part of the sun well creation
9:26
right but I don't have it I don't have a
9:28
specific on that
9:29
>> right and so what wound up happening
9:31
during the corruption is that these
9:32
crystals as have often been found to do
9:34
in the history of Azeroth uh sort of
9:37
attune themselves to the corruption of
9:38
Kelazad and his weird magic um and so
9:43
they essentially shielded them they they
9:46
contained them. Uh they took they put
9:48
them in magical Tupperware to kind of
9:50
take them away from the Sunwell and you
9:52
know kind of re re regrow it that way.
9:54
Um in Romoth wanted to completely get
9:57
rid of these things and destroy them.
9:59
And this is where we start to see Aelor
10:02
have a little bit of that that madness
10:04
sort of like touch upon him where he
10:07
goes no. Uh while these have been
10:10
corrupted I want to study these and find
10:12
out why they became corrupted. How they
10:14
become corrupted. he didn't think they
10:16
could be corrupted. Uh, and then
10:18
convinces them not to destroy them or
10:20
get rid of them in any other capacity
10:21
and holds on and like winds up getting
10:23
to take them back to his magical lab
10:25
where he gets to poke at them and and
10:26
make, you know, whatever with them. Uh,
10:28
he was there for the fountain. Go ahead.
10:31
>> It's a little bit hypocritical of
10:32
Ralmath to constantly be telling Umbrich
10:34
that it's too dangerous to be
10:35
experimenting with void inside of Silver
10:38
Moon. And it's like, dude, Aelor is
10:39
right below your feet right now with all
10:41
kinds of dangerous stuff. To be fair,
10:43
there's I don't think Romath knows
10:45
completely and I think there's a blind
10:47
spot with that which I'll get to in a
10:48
second. Um because Romoth was hesitant
10:51
to let uh Aelor do this the first time.
10:54
Uh so then we go through the founding of
10:56
the blood knights with Muru and all of
10:57
that happens. Uh Matt is absolutely
11:00
right. He he Aelor is part and parcel
11:02
with taking the light out of uh Muru and
11:05
shoving it into paladins. Lead being one
11:08
of them. uh which then winds up heading
11:10
the whole thing where they wind up
11:11
becoming the blood knights and uh the
11:13
people's magic magical addiction or or
11:16
whatever happens because elves are just
11:18
really really good at being like
11:20
addicted to things apparently. Um he's
11:24
in Burning Crusade. He's there with all
11:26
the the blood knights. He's there
11:28
throughout it. Um he's also
11:32
very interested in fell energy. um it's
11:36
not really made a huge plot point, but
11:38
it's one of those things that like in
11:41
the story surrounding Burning Crusade,
11:43
he's taken an interest to it. And while
11:46
on the old Outland, the old broken
11:48
Draanor, what also happens to be in
11:51
Drraanor that we talk about a lot, a
11:53
whole ton of crystals, including the
11:54
Aexus crystals and a bunch of other
11:56
stuff that seem right up the alley of
11:58
somebody who's studying those uh those
12:00
wonderful little moon crystals that he's
12:01
had corrupted for a long time. You'll
12:03
notice that when in Warlords, they could
12:05
make moon wells very easily,
12:08
>> which we can then go to where Warlords
12:11
of Drraanor, where he goes to the
12:12
uncorrupted world of Drraanor and starts
12:15
to put more pieces together. Um, one
12:18
thing that he is in charge of is the
12:20
Animus Golems. Note the name there. This
12:24
will be relevant as we get into some of
12:26
my crackpot theories. Uh, blood golems
12:29
or animous golems. uh you'll notice them
12:31
from the MOU, but he the elves have not
12:35
shied away from using them at all. Uh he
12:38
empowers them with blood magic and
12:40
sending them to supplement the blood
12:41
elves and the Dreni soldiers battling
12:43
the Burning Legion. And of course,
12:45
nobody really thinks about it cuz
12:47
they're in the heat of battle at this
12:48
point. Uh but when you step back and
12:51
think about it, where did he learn to do
12:54
that? Where did he learn to manipulate
12:56
essentially?
12:58
because that's exactly what he was
13:00
doing.
13:00
>> To me, it to me it looked like what we'd
13:03
see with the MOU cuz they had very
13:05
similar golems.
13:06
>> Very much so. And then we get to where
13:09
the part where he kicks out Ka
13:11
Sunchaser. I think it's because she
13:13
started questioning his motives and what
13:15
he was doing. Um then we get to the
13:19
battle for Azeroth where we don't hear
13:20
from Aelor. Uh but you do see visions of
13:24
him in the uh Sunwell Plateau alongside
13:28
Kalfas when you do the uh Sori the
13:30
heritage of the Sori quest line uh which
13:33
is kind of a huge thing and you learn
13:34
about his involvement and role there.
13:36
But now it leads us to his current form.
13:39
His current form is basically taking
13:43
suffering or life experience
13:46
from other entities from living beings
13:49
and shoving them into crystals as
13:51
batteries cuz that's what you're doing
13:54
the entire time you're in the prey
13:56
system. And you're absolutely correct
13:58
that this looks exactly like he what's
14:01
something that happened in Revendreth.
14:03
And the question is, how and why does he
14:08
have this information? Is he just good
14:11
enough that he was able to figure out
14:13
that link when he was messing around
14:15
with uh all of this crystalbased magic
14:18
that he eventually figured out, oh, I
14:21
can shove lifeblood into this, or is
14:24
there something more sinister going on?
14:26
And there's been a theory going around,
14:28
and it is a little bit of a tinfoil hat
14:29
theory. Um, and I don't know how much I
14:33
believe it is, but I I kind of get to a
14:36
certain point. A lot of people think
14:38
that Aelor is currently possessed
14:41
uh by Sire Denathrius, of which we have
14:45
not seen in a very, very long time since
14:48
his sword broke out of the prison that
14:51
they had shoved him in. And don't
14:52
forget, his sword was containing the
14:55
soul or essence of Sirenathus.
14:58
I don't necessarily think that he is the
15:00
possessed of Sirenathus, but I wouldn't
15:03
be surprised if he made some deals
15:05
because everything he's doing, his
15:07
attitude, the way he talks, the way he
15:11
interacts with players, doesn't it sound
15:14
a bit like Sirenus?
15:16
Doesn't it sound like it has that
15:17
affectation that that sort of imperial
15:20
nature? When you first meet him, he
15:22
doesn't have. He's a lot more
15:24
softspoken, a lot more like nerdy
15:26
bookish. Uh,
15:28
>> yeah. When you see him at the Paladin in
15:29
the Paladin quest, I'm just going to
15:31
come out and say it, the dude is a
15:33
flunky. He is somebody's He's always
15:36
answering to someone else. And it's
15:38
always very obvious that he is.
15:40
>> And And it's not like he's getting
15:41
kicked while doing it. He's This is a
15:43
role he This is like he's fine with it
15:44
at this point. Like, or at least that's
15:47
his job.
15:48
>> Yeah. Please continue.
15:49
>> No, I that's pretty much all I was
15:50
saying. It's just that he goes from the
15:52
guy who does pretty much what he's told
15:55
to the guy who's constantly coming up
15:57
with ridiculous
15:58
>> arguments for why. No, we should study
16:00
the corrupted evil crystals that nearly
16:02
killed us all. Absolutely. I'll get to
16:05
work on that right away.
16:06
>> Yeah,
16:07
>> sure. All right. Ramath's like and but
16:09
it's not he's not being demented about
16:11
it at the time. No,
16:13
>> but he goes it is still a little out of
16:16
character for him to argue with Ramath
16:19
>> very much so.
16:21
>> Yeah. And I think that's one of the
16:23
things that has kind of keyed me off
16:24
that something is go more is going on
16:26
with Aelor story-wise than I think we
16:28
have right now. And I'm sure that this
16:30
is going to be a loose thread that they
16:31
pull on later. But like everything,
16:34
every interaction you have with him,
16:35
every time you do pray, uh the things he
16:37
says to you if you fail at the prey, um
16:42
the things he says to you when you
16:43
complete the prey are all
16:47
really
16:48
like sireny. They're they're all that
16:51
sort of that that imperious I'm better
16:53
than you attitude. And so I'm
16:55
questioning if when draining the
16:59
uh the Naru, when draining Muru, if he
17:03
got glimpses of things that maybe he
17:05
wouldn't have otherwise, if maybe
17:07
attuning crystals to the frequencies
17:09
that he has has allowed him maybe to
17:11
make a connection that we wouldn't have
17:14
nearly assumed before. because I can
17:16
absolutely see this being something
17:18
Sirenathus would be like, "This is
17:20
delightfully demented and I'm going to
17:21
throw a monkey wrench into the the
17:23
living world because this is funny." And
17:25
then eventually I'll be able to get this
17:27
person because when he dies, he's coming
17:30
here to atone for all of his sins a
17:31
thousand% and I'll be able to use him as
17:33
an endless battery myself. Let's go.
17:37
Because that seems to be where he's at
17:38
right now. It's it's cruel. His attitude
17:41
is very cruel. and he says he's doing it
17:44
for his people, but I'm relatively
17:46
confident that like every other hero
17:49
turned villain that we've ever
17:51
experienced in Warcraft. Uh if the bad
17:55
guys run out, the good guys are right
17:58
there. And uh people already go missing
18:00
in Murder Row and other places. And he's
18:03
really close to Murder Row. Like he's
18:06
literally right underneath Murder Row uh
18:08
where his where his sanctum is. So I
18:10
wouldn't be surprised if more people go
18:13
missing and get shoved into batteries
18:15
and used for their suffering. So yeah,
18:19
his cruel methods even under the dire
18:21
conditions are probably not being
18:22
observed by Rometh. Rometh has been a
18:25
little busy with other things as of
18:27
late. Um and if you notice Aelor waited
18:31
until we were there to offer us the
18:35
ability to hunt prey and help him. He
18:38
didn't ask the other NPCs or anybody
18:42
else. And he's basically been doing
18:43
this, for lack of a better term, in his
18:45
mother's basement for the entire time,
18:47
hidden from the light of day or in his
18:49
secret sanctum, which is also in a
18:51
basement somewhere else on the island.
18:52
He's also, it's suspiciously easy how
18:55
well it works at first, where he kind of
18:57
summons us and he's like, "I had an idea
18:59
for something that might work. Try it
19:00
out. Hey, it worked great. Let's try it
19:02
a little bit more." Oh, awesome. Now we
19:04
can really get into it. It's a little
19:05
bit like
19:05
>> like he already knew it was going to
19:07
work. Yeah.
19:08
>> Where'd you get Where'd you get those
19:09
bottles you're holding this stuff in?
19:11
What? What? What? It's It's like
19:13
convenient that he just kind of is like,
19:15
"Yep, I have this whole new entire
19:17
branch of of magic stuff that we're
19:19
going to get up to. Um, and it works
19:21
perfectly and there's no setbacks and
19:23
there's it that's not going to take me a
19:24
while. It's just Yep. Okay. Um, start
19:27
harvesting. We can kind of scale this up
19:29
and really get our defenses going."
19:31
Yeah. It's like, who taught you that?
19:33
Where'd you get this information?
19:34
>> Yeah. It's It's very I don't want to say
19:38
problematic.
19:39
Um it's weird. It is It is not normal.
19:44
Which again, I don't know the specifics
19:46
of it, but it just seems
19:48
like I said, I don't think he's
19:50
possessed by Denathrius. I could be I
19:52
could be wrong, but like I even look for
19:56
little Easter eggs when I and anybody in
19:58
in my guild will tell you the same
20:00
thing. When I first got introduced to
20:02
Aelor on the when I was in the beta and
20:06
just like introduc the first thing I did
20:08
was go literally to every nook and
20:10
cranny in his sanctum in uh Silver Moon
20:14
City, everywhere else I could find that
20:17
he would potentially go and just look to
20:19
see if uh Ramonia the sword was
20:22
somewhere there like hanging on a wall
20:23
or, you know, in a container somewhere
20:26
or something like that
20:29
because everything smacked of
20:30
Revendrath. Like the the color aesthetic
20:33
like again his sanctum's red and black
20:36
and he reminds me of
20:38
>> I just feel like if he left the sword on
20:40
the wall that would be like that's a
20:43
[ __ ] move.
20:45
>> Yeah. Yes. But it doesn't mean that it
20:47
wouldn't happen. Just saying.
20:49
>> Saying I'm glad he didn't have even if
20:52
he is evil, I'm glad he didn't just hang
20:53
it on the freaking wall. But I also
20:56
looked for things like bottles ofma like
20:58
we saw in Shadowlands or you know
21:01
bottles of animus like we saw with the
21:04
mou or things like that. Um
21:09
like I was looking for little Easter
21:10
eggs like that. I didn't see any. I may
21:12
have missed them. So you know let us
21:14
know if you did the same thing and found
21:16
something that I didn't. Uh, but yeah,
21:19
Romath, we're not we're sorry, Aelor,
21:22
we're not done with. And I'm fairly
21:24
confident when things calm down and
21:26
Romath has time to like actually observe
21:29
what Aelor has been doing. Um, I would
21:32
not be surprised if there's a quarrel
21:34
between Umbri and Romath of how to deal
21:36
with Atollor. Uh, because yeah, I'm
21:38
pretty sure both of those have some
21:40
pretty strong opinions on what would
21:41
happen with this type of match. Anything
21:43
else you guys want to add to that one? I
21:45
honestly think that if Umbrich did get
21:47
involved in this, it would be him going,
21:48
"No, no, give him some more rope. I want
21:50
to see who he reports to." Versus Ramoth
21:53
like, "No, I just want to throw him out
21:54
of an airlock now."
21:56
>> Yeah. Yeah.
21:57
>> You know, he just seems like a character
21:59
that's looking for creative ways to
22:00
sustain his people, which is like super
22:03
onbrand for blood elf history with his
22:07
morals seem to be rules were meant to be
22:09
broken. Um, so it was like it isn't in
22:12
some ways it's internally consistent,
22:14
but yeah, there's enough going on that
22:16
there's there's surely more behind all
22:18
of the curtains in his little hideway
22:20
there.
22:21
>> All right, our next question comes from
22:23
Vixalink.
22:25
Uh, back on Caresh when we were doing
22:28
the quest line to reintroduce wildlife
22:30
to the remains of the planet. The final
22:33
one sends us with Hemtt Nessingray back
22:36
to his camp in Outland to collect some
22:38
snakes from the Grand. Uh, when we get
22:41
there, do we also get sent back in time?
22:44
Because Harold Lane is still in his old
22:46
grand camp, but he has a new piece of
22:48
dialogue he uses in the quest to the
22:50
atrium, reacting to our current The War
22:53
Within presence, even though we killed
22:55
him in Wrath of the Lich King in the
22:56
Borian Tundra. Also, one of these quests
22:59
while we're there, Zangar Moss sends us
23:02
into the Zanger Marsh to collect moss
23:04
from places under Naga control. Does
23:06
this mean there are still Naga in
23:08
Outland in the current time and they're
23:10
just there chilling? Illan and Lady Vos
23:13
are both long gone. So, what reason do
23:15
they have to stay in Zanger Marsh? Or
23:17
are they stuck there with no way back to
23:18
Azeroth? Or are they somehow in contact
23:21
with Azara and she has ordered them to
23:24
remain for some reason? What could that
23:26
reason be? Matt, you first.
23:28
>> I think they just kind of don't care
23:30
with Howard Lane, whether or not he's
23:33
dead. Um, but who knows? Maybe it's
23:37
another one of those situations where
23:38
everyone was like, "Wait a minute. Isn't
23:40
that arch mage dead?" And then it turned
23:42
out, "Yes, he is." Uh, I don't know.
23:45
>> I would like to know I clock that
23:46
immediately. Thank you very much.
23:48
>> Yeah. Yeah. We were like talking about
23:50
it. He goes, I looked at him like, "Wait
23:52
a minute. That guy's dead." And I was
23:54
like, "Where? Hold on. This this feels
23:56
like something somebody I know would
23:58
have done. And not saying that they did,
24:00
but it did feel like they're kind of
24:02
deep cut. As for the Howard Lane thing,
24:04
like I said, I don't know if it's a
24:05
mistake. I don't know if they're doing
24:07
something with it. I just know I don't I
24:09
don't feel like either is an
24:11
impossibility. I would not be surprised
24:12
if nobody thought about whether or not
24:14
Harold Lane should be alive. I'll be
24:16
upfront. I didn't remember he was dead.
24:19
So, yeah.
24:20
>> Yeah. I I feel like the the stuff that
24:24
happens where you have the lore having
24:26
to fit the game mechanics just how the
24:28
way the game is laid out and in some
24:30
cases you get this teeny tiny you have
24:32
to bend the lore into a knot and nothing
24:34
makes sense because you know you want to
24:37
send us to other areas of the world that
24:39
was part of the uh that cares area the
24:43
oasis. you know, you're heading to other
24:45
parts of the world and you're gathering
24:48
some animals and stuff and like, yeah,
24:50
things are a bit different because it's
24:51
been so long, but when you go back so
24:53
far to a place that's been 19 years and
24:56
we have to collect moss and stuff, it's
24:58
hard to just ignore the changes that
25:01
have been on since then because you're
25:02
not going to update all of Zanganger
25:03
Marsh to for a single quest. Maybe
25:06
someday we'll update it all to like
25:08
what's been going on in the meantime.
25:09
But yeah, you kind of have to just kind
25:11
of suspend your disbelief that that
25:13
stuff is going on there and has changed.
25:16
And it doesn't really make sense for us
25:18
to have timeraveled, but it also doesn't
25:20
really make sense for us to not have
25:21
timeraveled and then have this
25:22
interaction with Harold Lane. So, it's
25:24
like it can't be either or both. So, I I
25:28
think I have a theory and this is again
25:31
tinfoil Hattie. So, uh come along with
25:34
the weird journey for me. So Harold Lane
25:37
I think died in Burning Crusade. So when
25:42
we find him in the Burning Crusade, he's
25:44
been incapacitated from a scratch from
25:46
one of the thorns on Negrand, like one
25:48
of the native thorns in a grand. Uh and
25:50
his condition keeps worsening and
25:52
worsening as we go through the I
25:55
remember at the time I think I was a
25:56
hunter and I really was into this. It
25:57
was the Talbuk mastery quest cuz I
25:59
wanted a Talbuk hunter pet no matter
26:01
what. Uh and then suddenly and
26:04
suspiciously
26:06
uh he becomes better and I'm going to
26:08
air quote that really heavily when we
26:10
kill Bakalor or Bachelor whatever you
26:12
want to however you want to pronounce it
26:14
which is essentially the Talbuk alpha of
26:17
Negrand and why why would killing that
26:21
Talbuk
26:23
make him better I posit that he's dead
26:27
and like the other spirits that roam
26:30
Negrand and the spirit central location
26:32
that Negrand is in Outland. He's just
26:35
doesn't realize he's dead. He's just
26:37
there. Um, and like we do kill him the
26:41
assa in the assassination of Herold
26:43
Lane. Um, when in Wrath of the Lich
26:46
King, I mean, I think he would just go
26:49
back to Negrand. He probably just woke
26:52
up there and doesn't know what's going
26:53
on or at least does. Um because like I
26:58
think if remember correctly in in Wrath
27:00
of the Lich King, he gets stampeded by
27:01
rhinos which basically kills him and
27:04
then we finish off the task or he could
27:06
not have died and he could have just
27:08
been whisked away back to Negrand where
27:10
he feels safe. But I think he's I think
27:13
there's something goofier going on. Like
27:15
he's been dead the entire time. Like he
27:17
died back in Burning Crusades and he's
27:19
either been like a forsaken that hasn't
27:22
decayed or is just a ghost of some type
27:25
because again weird stuff happens in
27:28
Negrand. It's where you can summon the
27:30
elements. It's where a lot of ancestor
27:31
worship happens. If I remember
27:33
correctly, in the original like
27:36
storylines for Nagrand, when we got
27:37
there, a lot of the shaman we talked
27:39
with were talking with their ancestors.
27:42
That's where we first really, really,
27:43
really learned about the orcish way of
27:45
communing with their ancestors. Uh, and
27:48
like all that back then. So, I would not
27:50
be surprised if something funky happened
27:52
like that with
27:53
>> You just made me think of something
27:54
else.
27:55
>> Go for it.
27:56
>> He nezingwary is an odd choice for
27:59
conservatis. conservatorism. Y to to to
28:02
go gather animals for your planet. He
28:05
nezingwear has wiped out more animals
28:07
than like the destruction of Drraanor
28:09
dead.
28:10
>> Uh so that's odd right there. When you
28:13
see Hemtt in uh in Negrand the first
28:17
time in in the Burning Crusade, he's
28:19
still up to it. Uh he's he's wiping them
28:22
out, you know, everywhere. But suddenly,
28:25
you know, he does change after that.
28:28
Like the next times we see him, he's
28:30
suddenly not so interested in killing
28:31
stuff. He's more interested in studying
28:33
it and looking at it and all that. What
28:36
if HemT knows exactly why Harold isn't
28:39
dead?
28:40
>> Yeah. Because if anybody's going to come
28:43
up with some ridiculous native, you
28:46
know, in his somewhat some of someone
28:49
bigoted opinion of like other places
28:52
like he he goes to other people's places
28:55
and just starts killing the wildlife,
28:56
you know, willy will willy-nilly. What
28:58
if it's he that's maybe he's cursed?
29:02
Maybe he's got a curse on him that's
29:04
forcing him to basically try to preserve
29:06
what he lost and Harold as his first
29:09
associate to really like be like
29:12
Harold's one of his was one of his
29:13
oldest guys. Maybe Harold is part of it.
29:16
Maybe that's what they're holding on him
29:18
like you know keep doing this or we put
29:20
Harold back in the ground for good.
29:22
>> And also don't forget too that uh Hemtt
29:24
Nessing is essentially the Wow version
29:26
of Alan Quartermain like
29:28
>> Yep. Yep. So we all weird stuff all the
29:31
time. you know, the the whole
29:32
supernatural stuff, the supernatural
29:34
stuff surrounds him. Uh the fact that he
29:36
is, you know, essentially eternally
29:39
young as long as he's like got his heart
29:41
and and it could be in a grand, it could
29:43
be wherever there doesn't mean that it
29:44
doesn't extend to the other people
29:46
around him either, right? And I know
29:49
somebody made a a thought that the
29:53
reason that Harold got better when we
29:56
killed something of a very large game,
29:59
very important thing was that they made
30:02
a deal and we're siphoning off the as
30:04
sort of uh how you know how they were
30:07
preserving themselves. Uh it's also
30:10
>> it could just be sacrifice
30:11
>> or it could just sacrifice. Yep.
30:13
>> Like think about Mala for a second here.
30:15
If you made a deal with Misala and I
30:17
know Hemik Nesi where he knows who
30:18
Misala is because he wrote the Green
30:20
Hills of Stranglethorn.
30:22
>> Yep.
30:23
>> Uh if you made a deal with Misala to
30:25
keep Harold Lane alive, that deal might
30:27
involve sacrificing powerful entities to
30:30
it
30:30
>> and being a hunter that would be large
30:32
creatures, alpha creatures, and then
30:35
preserving the rest of the uh flock
30:37
because again, Hemet's been around for a
30:39
while. uh he understands things a little
30:42
bit better than we give him credit for I
30:44
think uh these days where he may
30:47
understand that wiping out entire
30:49
populations of animals means that you
30:50
can no longer hunt those animals in the
30:51
near in the f the far future uh and if
30:54
he's got more time now than a normal
30:56
mortal lifespan even though he's a dwarf
30:58
and they are very well longived. Yeah, I
31:00
could see that being something that he
31:02
might be potentially into. But yeah, I
31:04
think there's something supernatural
31:05
going on with Harold. And I think that
31:07
there's a everything we've seen with him
31:09
has been a little bit of a cheeky nod to
31:12
that. I mean, again, we've literally
31:14
seen this man die twice, once at our
31:16
own. So, I wouldn't put it past him.
31:19
Now, to the other part of your your
31:20
question with uh Burning Crusade and
31:23
Outland uh and particularly the Zanger
31:25
Marsh region, we canonically do not kill
31:28
all of the Naga there. Zanger Marsh is
31:32
an order of magnitude larger than it is
31:35
represented in game. And Negrand and and
31:39
uh the Hellfire Peninsula uh and all of
31:42
the other places of Outland are much
31:45
larger than they are physically
31:47
represented in game. So keep that in
31:50
mind as we're talking about this. Uh, as
31:53
you're making your way through Serpent
31:55
Shrine Cavern, which is this huge
31:57
machinery uh under the the the swamp
31:59
that is essentially controlling and
32:01
keeping the water. Um, you don't get to
32:06
see all of the Naga there. Remember,
32:09
there are multiple wings down there. The
32:11
raid is just one portion of it. It's the
32:13
largest portion of it, but it's one
32:15
portion of it. There are still
32:17
>> two dungeons. There are two dungeons
32:18
there. And there's places that they're
32:20
connected to that you never go to. Yep.
32:22
You can see them.
32:22
>> Yeah, there are tunnels that we can't go
32:24
through that go further underground into
32:26
other under enclave areas. So, it has
32:30
never been canonical or stated in game
32:33
that we have wiped out all the Naga in
32:36
Outland. Um, they may also be stuck
32:39
there too. There may be an element of
32:40
that, but also they may just not want to
32:43
leave cuz their boss is dead and Azara
32:49
can't get to them. And I'm saying that
32:51
with a giant question mark at the end of
32:52
it.
32:53
>> She she's less likely at least if you're
32:56
keep in mind that there's a there's a
32:57
Naga heretic in a cage. Uh I think it's
33:01
it's in one of the Serpent Shrine
33:02
subdungeons. It's not in Serpent Shrine
33:04
caverns, but one of the subdaga
33:09
um who who worships Neptilon and doesn't
33:12
think Ashara is is divine or anything.
33:15
That's not the kind of talk you'd get
33:17
from the Naga back on, you know,
33:20
Azeroth, but it's it shows you the kind
33:23
of mindset that would definitely not
33:25
want to go back and, you know, have to
33:28
explain to this woman that he's he's
33:30
dying to tell her she isn't even really
33:32
rel a religious figure. No, it's better
33:35
here. Even if she can get to us, is she
33:37
going to bother like for, you know,
33:40
they're another planet. They're not
33:42
doing anything to me. Am I gonna spend
33:44
power to kill them? Not yet. Not unless
33:47
they really annoy me. So that's how I
33:49
see Ash on this one.
33:50
>> Yeah, I can kind of picture them after
33:53
the events of Burning Crusade just kind
33:55
of looking around being like, well, it's
33:56
kind of nice here and nothing else is
33:59
really going on. And yeah, Ashara is not
34:02
going to go through all the effort to
34:03
get us right away. So, let's just take
34:06
10 or 15 years and just hang out here
34:08
before, you know, the planet continues
34:09
to collapse into the Twisting Nether or
34:11
we get summoned or something. Let's just
34:14
hang out and pretend that we were doing
34:16
something worthwhile.
34:17
>> Yeah. And and I mean and I think that's
34:19
one of the things that we need to keep
34:20
in mind as we we talk about like a lot
34:22
of the stuff we've done in the past is
34:24
generally speaking uh player characters
34:27
are usually not part and parcel to
34:29
genocide. Um and we generally will win a
34:33
war and move on not necessarily
34:36
subjugating all those people. In this
34:40
particular case with uh the Naga again
34:44
we don't go on an extermination
34:45
campaign. We don't go and hunt them all
34:47
down. We take out uh you know the
34:50
leader. We take out why can I not think
34:52
of her name now? That fight was annoying
34:54
as all heck.
34:55
>> Lady Lady Vos.
34:56
>> Lady Vos. Thank you. We take out Lady
34:58
Vos. Um we send her to the Shadowlands
35:02
and
35:04
do we care about anything else? Like is
35:07
there a reason for us to go and do
35:08
anything but maybe take out petty
35:10
warlords if we had to? which we do
35:13
essentially inquesting leading up into
35:15
going into the Serpent Shrine Cavern.
35:16
So, we've systematically destroyed all
35:18
of the leadership and arguably the
35:21
larger more powerful Naga, why would the
35:24
other ones care? Why would they want to
35:27
go back home?
35:29
And especially like Matt pointed out, if
35:31
there are those among them that worship
35:33
Neptilon and understand that other
35:35
entities exist, but understand that
35:38
they're going to be persecuted if they
35:39
go back to Azeroth because there's no
35:42
way uh Lady Azara is going to let them
35:45
talk about any other god but her. Yeah,
35:48
you you stay where you are. And again,
35:51
the dark portal, yes, we travel through
35:53
it, and yes, she could probably easily
35:56
go through it or probably use some other
35:58
means to portal jump there as you know,
36:00
the fact that she is the strongest
36:02
arcane wielder currently alive on
36:04
Azeroth. Yeah, probably. But does she
36:06
care about a rag tag ban of a handful of
36:08
them that are no longer loyal to her
36:12
potentially or is
36:14
>> Yeah, they weren't really working for
36:15
her in the first place. They were
36:17
working for Vos and Vos was on, you
36:19
know, we didn't know for sure where
36:20
Vos's loyalty is. Like sure, she was
36:23
titularly loyal to Va to Ashara, but she
36:27
she's fell in with Illan real quick.
36:29
Now, was she spying on for Aara? Maybe.
36:33
>> Likely.
36:34
>> Yeah. But was she did she have a group
36:38
of Naga with her that Ashara would
36:40
approve of? Maybe better she doesn't.
36:42
You know, take some Malcontents with
36:44
you. It gets him out of here and it
36:46
makes you look more likely to not be
36:48
spying on him for me. So, you know,
36:51
Ashara is really smart. Like, she can
36:53
come up with solutions to problems that
36:55
are not blunt force trauma. She's she's
36:58
one of the most powerful and intelligent
37:00
beings to ever live on Azeroth.
37:02
>> Mhm.
37:03
>> So, she can come up with a plan that
37:05
doesn't revolve her having to kill
37:06
anybody. She doesn't even necessarily
37:08
like killing people. I want to point out
37:11
at the end of the original uh Legion
37:14
invasion of the War of the Ancients,
37:17
Ashara maybe didn't do it because she's
37:20
a a cousy fuddly, you know, a cuddly
37:23
fuzzy bunny that loves everyone, but she
37:26
did try to preserve Shinashari and all
37:28
its people. You know, is it that she
37:30
doesn't feel like she's got, you know,
37:33
they're her people? If someone's going
37:35
to kill them, it's her. But regardless,
37:37
she did try to preserve them when it
37:39
would have been much easier to cut and
37:41
run.
37:41
>> Mhm.
37:42
>> So, there is that about Ashara that
37:44
doesn't necessarily want to kill her
37:46
people. Even if they're wrong, even if
37:48
they're not understanding that she's the
37:50
divinely appointed ruler of all things,
37:53
they're still her people. Maybe she'll
37:55
punish them, but if if there's no need
37:57
to, why bother?
37:58
>> I agree. I think she's got the Zanger
38:02
Marsh Naga on her list of people who've
38:06
wronged her or people to seek out and
38:08
get vengeance on or or something, but
38:10
they're not high on the list. They're
38:11
like 89th. But like like you said, she's
38:15
going to use everything at her disposal
38:18
for some purpose. And so instead of
38:20
going out of her way to go out and
38:22
annihilate them or subjugate them or
38:24
bring them back, she'll just show up
38:26
when she needs them and say, "Hey, I
38:28
forgive you for the last 10 years of not
38:30
showing up and not making your way back
38:32
to me if you do this thing that I now
38:34
need you for. I need you to get the
38:36
machinery back up and running because
38:38
now I need it for something." So I I
38:41
don't think that she forgot about them,
38:44
but yeah, I don't think that they are a
38:47
priority. I also didn't think that she
38:49
doesn't care about Outland, right?
38:51
Outland is ostensibly a dying world. And
38:55
what does she care about a dying world?
38:59
What does she care about a world water
39:02
source there? Cuz again, it doesn't
39:06
really matter to what she's doing back
39:08
on Azeroth. And then keep in mind that
39:12
Naga have been present currently in our
39:14
in the expansion. They're on the
39:16
coastline of of Qualas. Uh we don't know
39:19
what they're doing. They seem to be
39:21
doing smuggler operations. Whether in or
39:24
out, we don't know. They also seem to be
39:27
subjugating little crabs, which, you
39:29
know, shame on them. But there's
39:31
something going on with them currently
39:35
here. And again, going back to Outland,
39:38
we're not in Outland anymore. We're not
39:41
There's nothing going on there that
39:43
would really concern her. There's no
39:44
power there that I think she would be
39:46
interested in. I mean, I'm pretty sure
39:48
she already has a copy of the cipher of
39:50
damnation. She's we don't have to go
39:52
back hunting for that. Um, yeah, I think
39:55
she's more focused on the here and now
39:57
and what's going on now than anything
40:00
else. And I don't and I think it's more
40:03
likely that they just they're maybe just
40:05
trying to live their lives in peace.
40:07
Maybe not peace, but they're just trying
40:09
to live their lives. And as long as
40:10
there's no warlord eating them or
40:12
throwing them into like gigantic
40:14
monstrosities mouths uh and Ajara isn't
40:17
bothering them, I don't think there's
40:18
any motivation for them to come back. So
40:21
hopefully that answers your question. I
40:23
think we're going to move on to the next
40:25
one and see if we have enough time to
40:27
answer it fully. This one comes from
40:29
Stouts. Uh forgive this as I'm still
40:32
getting my head around things. Aloon is
40:35
ANR's love and gifts her with Aluna here
40:38
to quell the black empire. Almond fool
40:41
gets mad, plucks Aluna here, leaving
40:44
roots. I need to explore more, but don't
40:47
remember seeing the first world trees
40:48
roots in Handar unless
40:52
it was planted right over the world soul
40:54
to protect her and is why the Titans
40:55
moved her from M. Here's the weird bit.
40:59
There are shot all over the rift and
41:02
colored in Azerite Azeroth blood colors.
41:04
Was Yasharaj plucked at the same time
41:07
and spot causing the bleeding wound? We
41:11
don't have two wells of eternity. Was
41:13
Alan trying to get one or the other or
41:16
both? And there's an additional note.
41:18
Sylvanas keeps going on about the
41:20
Shadowlands being too ordered. Who likes
41:22
order? Amen. Did he create the
41:24
Shadowlands as we saw it and which is
41:25
why Light and Void are infiltrating? Are
41:28
we slowly finding it all to be almond
41:30
fool as the big bad? Uh, and then
41:33
there's a slight spoiler here, so maybe
41:36
go away for the next 10 minutes. I
41:39
apologize.
41:40
>> You've been warned.
41:41
>> You've been warned. Uh, and then as
41:43
additional, as an FYI, after killing
41:45
Lura, uh, you can get a decor item. I
41:48
placed it last night and found it to be
41:49
a portal and took me to the seat of
41:52
Azara. Apparently, it takes you to any
41:54
void place, but I found it funny after
41:56
listening to your last lore watch
41:57
episode that it took me to a Ashara. She
42:00
has to be coming for sure. Also, that
42:02
portal will take like it will take you
42:03
to any void place, including things like
42:05
uh the Twilight raid in the Twilight
42:08
Highlands. It's a funny little thing,
42:11
and it is usually rare to get functional
42:13
decor like that. So, it is of note. Um,
42:17
yeah. So, we talked a little bit about
42:19
this before, and I'll go first cuz I
42:22
feel like it. Um, we don't know that
42:28
the branch of of of Aluna here,
42:32
it was physically planted in as we know
42:35
that all world trees come from the
42:38
mother tree. We don't know that it was
42:40
physically planted in Azeroth. For all
42:42
we know, and Matt posited this years
42:45
ago, uh that the remnants of what we
42:49
experience in the Emerald Nightmare
42:52
might be the last vestages of the
42:54
original Mother Tree cutting that was
42:56
put down. And it may have been put down
42:58
in the Emerald Dream. Because remember,
43:00
we have that rain encounter where
43:02
there's an old godish, neo old god,
43:05
whatever you want to call him, inside of
43:07
a world tree stump in an area where a
43:10
world tree has, to our knowledge, never
43:13
been. But we know through Shadowlands
43:16
now and other expansions that there's a
43:20
layer of reality that overlays Azeroth,
43:23
at least two of them. Emerald Dream
43:25
seems to have a layer that definitely
43:27
layers over Azeroth or at least has some
43:30
bleed over. Not that it's a onetoone
43:32
copy, uh, but it is literally like if
43:35
you were to phase shift out of harmony,
43:38
you could be in that area, if that makes
43:41
sense. And the same thing with the bleed
43:44
over from the Shadowlands on Azeroth,
43:46
which we learned from Wrath of the Lich
43:47
King, uh, and being a death knight,
43:49
which gave us a whole new understanding
43:52
of essentially what it means to be. So,
43:54
it's possible that the original world
43:56
tree was never physically planted on
43:58
Azeroth. At least that's partially what
44:02
I'm thinking. I don't know if you guys
44:03
agree with that or what you think about
44:05
that. I actually was thinking about it
44:07
in terms of like you mentioned Ilgenoth
44:10
is basically appears as a giant deformed
44:13
monster tree in a location um
44:16
essentially looks to be Angoro where
44:18
there's no world tree reference. There's
44:20
nothing there that should that you could
44:22
possibly look at and say this is a world
44:24
tree. There's not even any caverns as
44:26
such.
44:27
>> But the argument has been made that the
44:28
crater could have been made from a world
44:29
tree being ripped out. I
44:30
>> Yeah. And one of the things I've thought
44:33
about a lot when I'm thinking about that
44:35
is not just what if the world tree was
44:38
what if Gahan is the you know the the
44:41
fragment of of Gahan or the cutting uh
44:44
wasn't planted physically. We know that
44:48
there's we keep saying that you know he
44:51
ripped
44:52
you know out and that's what caused the
44:55
wound. What if he wasn't trying to just
44:59
pull Yash out because he was, you know,
45:02
orderly and contemptuous? What if she he
45:05
what if Yash had reached her?
45:08
>> Yeah.
45:09
>> And the reason that the world tree isn't
45:13
there is because it had never been there
45:17
because it was We've talked before, you
45:20
just talked about there being an overlay
45:21
between these two realities. We know
45:23
that that's a good It's also a good
45:26
place to start growing a world tree. You
45:28
grow it in the Emerald Dream first.
45:32
>> Mhm.
45:33
>> And then you bring it out and put it on
45:36
Azeroth. What if the the cutting of
45:38
Gahan never got removed from the Emerald
45:43
Dream? And we know that Anrar created
45:45
the Emerald Dream on Azeroth, the
45:47
overlay. She didn't create the whole
45:49
thing. It seems like it's an a
45:51
cosmological constant, but she did
45:53
create the overlay between it and
45:56
Azeroth, just like there's overlay
46:00
between Ardan wield and Azeroth. And
46:03
who's up to her pretty little eyebrows
46:06
in that? Aloon, who calls the Winter
46:09
Queen sister. What's going on with that?
46:12
And how does that relate? We know that
46:15
certain spirits go from, you know, Ardan
46:18
wield to the Emerald Dream. Not not from
46:21
Azeroth to Ardenwield. From Ardan to the
46:24
Emerald Dream. They get re re they get
46:26
to be reborn in the Emerald Dream from
46:29
Ardan wield. We know it go there's a
46:31
back and forth there. What if that's
46:33
what Gahaners did? the the creation of
46:37
the world tree network was creating and
46:40
we know that the world tree network is
46:42
like you've pointed out it teleports all
46:44
over the place
46:46
>> and we know now cuz the hariner are
46:48
playable they can teleport to any world
46:51
tree
46:52
>> so through its roots they they have to
46:54
they they travel via the root system
46:56
>> but they don't just walk along the roots
46:58
they teleport through them
46:59
>> yep
47:00
>> uh it's similar to what some druids do
47:02
with the emerald dream they use the the
47:04
world trees to get there. All of this to
47:07
me says that uh Ganier may never not
47:10
only have never been physical, Ganier is
47:12
the whole thing. Like all the world
47:15
trees, every time there's a new world
47:16
tree, that is a manifestation of Ghana.
47:20
>> They're quote unquote daughters. And
47:22
that to me implies that whilst he's a
47:25
jerk, Amthul might have been trying not
47:29
to kill Gahan or do anything to it. He
47:32
may have sincerely been trying to
47:34
protect Azeroth from Yash. Yeah.
47:38
>> And And that's the thing. He's People
47:41
talk about him being First of all,
47:42
there's no way he made the Shadowlands.
47:44
>> No.
47:45
>> I'm sorry. That's putting him way up
47:47
there. The first ones made the
47:48
Shadowlands. The first ones made
47:49
everything. But did Ammon his super
47:53
orderly nature, did he know about them?
47:57
Probably. Uh, he probably knows about
47:59
them and doesn't like them. He he's I'll
48:01
say this for for Amenthal. He knows how
48:04
to dislike things. He is not bad at it
48:07
and and it's not an effort for him. But
48:08
I don't think he's the villain of this.
48:11
I think he is very similar to Odin. Like
48:13
there are good and you know there are
48:15
three beings that we know Amthul touched
48:18
and that that viewed him kind of as a
48:21
mentor and you know he basically
48:24
intended to be important. There's Master
48:26
Raw, there's Odin, and there's Tier. Of
48:30
those three, Odin's the realest, the
48:33
jerkiest of them all. Tier, not as bad
48:36
as Odin, but certainly some pretty big
48:39
colossal boooos on his part. Um, I'm
48:42
looking right at you, gigantic, horrible
48:44
undead creature dragon. Uh, and Master
48:48
Ra was really comfortable with just
48:51
creating realms and and dimensions where
48:54
we got like multiple, you know, he
48:56
imprisoned multiple elementals. If you
48:59
look at these guys, they're very
49:01
headstrong. They're very convinced of
49:03
their right in it. And I think that was
49:05
really Amul's problem with um Aonar's
49:08
relationship with Aloon, with the world
49:10
trees. He didn't understand them and so
49:12
he didn't trust them. Just like Odin
49:15
didn't understand what Tier was doing
49:17
and so didn't trust it. Just as Tier
49:20
didn't trust his fellows to do the job
49:24
and that's why he wanted to make the
49:25
dragon aspects in the first place. And
49:27
Master Raw was like, I can't leave any
49:30
of this weird essence that got to me in
49:32
anybody else's hands. I'm going to go
49:34
stick it in a lake in the middle of
49:37
Pandora and nobody will know about it.
49:39
you know, they're all there's a lot of
49:41
the same thing being repeated over and
49:44
over again. This idea of I don't trust
49:45
this thing because I don't understand
49:47
it. So, instead of learning about it,
49:49
I'm going to just ignore it or do an end
49:51
run around it. And we see that three
49:52
times.
49:53
>> Yeah. Eric, do you have thoughts on it
49:55
before I respond?
49:56
>> Uh, yeah. I think that there's a lot
49:59
going on that we need some tinfoil hats
50:02
for just because we don't have all the
50:05
answers yet. I think that Amanthul
50:08
is like a really grumpy gardener on
50:10
Azeroth. He's got a ripping things out
50:12
problem. You know, he rips out the
50:15
branch of Eluna here because it's not
50:18
order. He rips out uh Isarge because
50:21
it's a corruption. and he rips out a
50:24
what we think what could be Az herself
50:27
to to stick Azeroth inside of the
50:30
machinery to you know pump her full of
50:33
uh order magic and it's like what if
50:37
what if some of those weren't actually
50:39
different events
50:42
like what if I there's it's like a lot
50:46
of different ways you could go with it
50:48
but what if when he rips out the tree
50:52
root root. It actually was because that
50:56
it was because Yesh was like part of
51:00
like the tree route was getting he
51:02
ripped up the tree route but Yashar came
51:03
with it because the tree route was
51:05
planted there to you know stem the
51:06
corruption of the old gods and so that
51:10
caused more of uh you know he thought
51:11
he'd be able to just get the branch out
51:13
because it had just been planted but had
51:16
been there for who knows how many
51:17
thousand years. I I do want to also
51:19
point out that just because we read
51:21
about him ripping out the world tree in
51:24
the legend of Aluna Year. Does that mean
51:26
he actually did that?
51:28
>> Right. That's that's a book that we
51:29
don't even know who it was written by
51:30
and it was conveniently left out for us
51:32
to find. And it says at the beginning of
51:35
the book, yeah, it's a legend. Some say
51:36
that it didn't happen and some say that
51:38
it happened differently. So, we don't
51:40
know anything about that stuff that
51:42
happened that long ago. We're still
51:43
trying to piece together which of these
51:45
legends are based in fact and and which
51:47
are people being confused and talking
51:49
about things they don't even really
51:51
understand or referring to something
51:52
else.
51:54
>> Yeah. And part of that is is I I want to
51:56
make it clear that I'm not like a a
51:58
Titan stan or anything like that. I
52:00
think that they're all pretty they're
52:02
all pretty weird in their own ways.
52:04
Amanthul being the one of order uh is
52:07
not a mistake and he is definitely the
52:09
alpha type personality or a type
52:11
personality that everything has to go
52:13
his way. That said, the there come some
52:17
things that we know about like the world
52:19
trees and and what their purpose was,
52:22
which was essentially to create a
52:24
protective barrier around Azeroth's
52:27
soul. Uh, this has been stated multiple
52:29
times from multiple different sources
52:31
and multiple different um species, I
52:34
guess you would say, uh, different
52:36
peoples and their legends. Um, and it's
52:39
even been sort of reinforced by what
52:41
we're starting to learn from the the
52:43
Harir. And we know that because we're in
52:46
the cradle where all the world trees
52:48
roots sort of touch and meet. Um, why do
52:52
they do that? Well, because they're
52:54
interwoven. If you ever tried flying
52:56
through them, they're thick. They're not
52:58
maybe as thick as they would necessarily
53:00
be uh in in air quote real life, but
53:04
they're dense and they all come down and
53:06
touch each other in a certain pattern
53:08
that denotes to me a shield. Now,
53:12
Amanthul we know or at least we suspect
53:16
is, you know, ripped out Yash and did
53:19
the whole thing of, you know, creating
53:22
the Sha by blowing up Yash and squeezing
53:24
him like a pimple. Uh, creating the
53:27
wound that became the Well of Eternity,
53:29
all that stuff. And I talked about this
53:32
months ago where I believe that, and
53:35
this may be lost content, it may be
53:37
something that got scrapped for uh, you
53:40
know, our movement into where we
53:41
currently are. It may be something we
53:42
revisit later. I think there's more to
53:45
that story of what the underground area
53:49
is than we got to see. Cuz in the War
53:51
Within, as we're going through and we're
53:54
doing stuff, particularly moving towards
53:55
the goblin raid, there's a distinct lack
53:59
of old god corruption going down that
54:01
particular hallway. Uh, and as you meet
54:04
with Orwana, uh, and as the goblins are
54:07
unearthing the black blood and digging
54:09
through those ruins, because it is a
54:11
bunch of ruins, uh, that they're digging
54:14
through that has been corrupted by the
54:16
the black blood and taken over by these.
54:18
And when you go through the delves and
54:20
stuff like this, it's very clear that
54:21
there was some form of elven
54:23
civilization that either fell through
54:25
the earth or was here at some point
54:27
because it is very elven architecture.
54:28
That's a whole other show, a whole other
54:30
topic. Um, but they talk about how they
54:34
prevented the black blood from reaching
54:38
the cradle by reaching from reaching
54:42
that particular area. Um, she don't
54:45
think she refers to it as a cradle at
54:46
that. But it also would stand to reason
54:48
that if they've existed for as long as
54:50
they have that they may have also been
54:53
descendants and and we talked about this
54:55
before, they seem to be a missing link
54:58
between trolls and elves.
55:01
Trolls existed forever, right? They're
55:04
one of the origin races, I believe, is
55:07
the way that we we've referred to them.
55:09
Um, if they were down there,
55:11
>> they've been around for a while.
55:12
>> We don't know how long they've been
55:13
there. We don't know how long they've
55:14
been there. We don't know how long
55:15
they've been underground or when they
55:16
were called. They could have been called
55:18
down there before the Black Empire
55:20
arrived, right?
55:22
um they could have established cities,
55:25
lines of defense, uh or civilization
55:29
well before the old gods started
55:30
burrowing into Azeroth. And then the old
55:32
gods show up and start burrowing into
55:34
Azeroth. The Asher starts sending
55:36
tentacles out, starts digging these
55:38
giant caverns uh as it starts to gain
55:41
biomass and essentially try to burrow
55:43
its way in and then hits the wall of
55:46
roots. It hits that rift of alm area
55:51
where it's slowly trying to make its way
55:53
through and maybe succeeding. And in
55:56
that time in leading up to that area,
55:59
civilization's fall, cities have
56:01
crumbled. Uh it has become corrupted and
56:04
and and essentially consumed by him.
56:07
again going through the um the bug city,
56:11
going through their entire area and how
56:13
open that cavern is and looking at the
56:15
ceiling and realizing that it looks
56:17
exactly like an old god uh emerald
56:19
nightmare skyscape which we've already
56:22
seen before is not a coincidence. Uh and
56:25
them being again in path to where
56:28
Harrener is because they are in path to
56:30
where Harrener is and how deep that
56:33
region goes. One could summize that
56:36
Yasharaj, like the rest of them, was
56:37
digging deep and maybe got a little
56:39
close. The rift of Alm may not be an
56:42
artifact of Yasharaj being ripped out,
56:45
and it may not be an artifact of Alm,
56:48
whoever Alm is, which we've already had
56:50
some theories on, leaving the cradle or
56:52
being left or leaving having the cradle
56:54
left behind. It may be something that
56:57
was caused by Yasharaj digging and
57:00
trying to like find his way around
57:03
uh the shield that was protecting the
57:05
core of Azeroth. The prize that all the
57:07
old gods sought, this giant source of
57:11
that would empower them to either become
57:13
titans onto themselves or to corrupt
57:16
Azeroth into becoming their new thing or
57:19
to pilot Azeroth like Crang pilots his
57:22
mech suit in the Teenage. I think that
57:24
is more likely why we see Sha, which
57:27
we're not calling Shaw, but these are
57:29
nightmares, right? These are memories.
57:32
Uh, and when you do the Harender raid,
57:35
um, when you kill Chimera, Chimera,
57:38
whatever, whatever the Chimera's name
57:40
is, uh, the entire thing is very clearly
57:45
a physical form given to a concept or
57:49
insubstantial idea or space, right? very
57:52
much what we've seen before with the
57:53
Emerald Dream and the Emerald Nightmare.
57:55
He talks about hearing her nightmares,
57:58
hearing her dreams, hearing her pain,
58:01
her suffering. It feels like the Rift of
58:03
Alen is a wound, not anything else. And
58:08
it feels like like you pointed out that
58:10
these look like aerite things that these
58:14
might be manifestations of the
58:16
subconscious or dreams or fears or pain
58:21
of Azeroth being able to cross into a
58:24
physical world cuz the deeper you get
58:25
into the rift which is the raid the more
58:28
tangible they become the more physical
58:31
they are right so I think there's more
58:34
to it there and I think that if anything
58:36
Alman loves a tool If there was a shield
58:40
that wasn't consuming the world's soul
58:42
or altering it, but protecting it, I
58:45
don't think he would rip it out. I think
58:47
he would bend it to his will, or at
58:50
least claim he did because it
58:52
accomplishes his goal of keeping Azeroth
58:56
pure, air quote. Does that make sense to
58:58
you guys?
58:58
>> I understand it. I will need time before
59:01
I decide whether or not I agree with it,
59:03
>> which is fair, Eric. So if your charge
59:06
is burrowing down and getting to this
59:09
wall of roots well before any of the
59:11
world trees are planted, then this would
59:13
just be inherent to Azeroth and not part
59:16
of any of that
59:17
>> or part of the very first or part of the
59:18
very first world tree or part of the
59:20
natural order of what was intended
59:23
because Matt Matt's talked about this
59:24
before where we're told that the Emerald
59:27
Dream was created. I don't think it was
59:29
created by the Titan after everything
59:31
that happens in Shadowlands. We're
59:33
pretty sure it existed before the Titans
59:35
ever showed up because otherwise, how is
59:38
the Shadowlands created by the First
59:41
Ones sending these spirits back to
59:44
Azeroth? I think it always existed. I
59:46
think it was always a a layer, a filter
59:49
between the Shadowlands and the Prime
59:51
Material plane through Azeroth. I don't
59:53
think it was created by the Titans. So,
59:56
that's my theory.
59:57
>> I'm going to have to jump in and make
59:58
one point. Uh, sure. It's also true that
1:00:01
Gahan itself is often depicted as a
1:00:05
network.
1:00:05
>> Yeah. A living network of roots, right?
1:00:07
>> It's branches and roots. There's like
1:00:09
gods, wild ones, dwell in its branches.
1:00:13
Uh Aviana lives in Gahanir. So, keep
1:00:17
that in mind.
1:00:18
>> All right. But I think that's going to
1:00:21
do it for today. Unless you have any
1:00:22
other comments to add, either of you.
1:00:24
>> I mean, if we let me go, I'll I'll be
1:00:25
here all day. I'm I'm good.
1:00:28
>> All right. All right. Well, if you want
1:00:29
us to explore that topic more, be sure
1:00:31
to let us know uh in the comments below
1:00:34
or uh you can go ahead and send us an
1:00:36
email. And if you have any other
1:00:37
questions that are spawned by this, be
1:00:38
sure to send us an email. You can send
1:00:40
it in at podcastblizzardwatch.com.
1:00:42
Specify the show that it is for in the
1:00:44
subject line as well as any special
1:00:46
pronunciation of your name. Uh, and I do
1:00:48
want to remind you that, uh, if you
1:00:50
support us on Patreon, not only does it
1:00:53
let us do things like this show and
1:00:55
continue to, you know, develop our
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community, uh, not only does it give you
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adsree uh, experience on our website,
1:01:02
uh, give you priority with questions
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being answered on the queue or our
1:01:06
podcast, uh, it gives you that direct
1:01:08
avenue to us and again that that
1:01:10
benefit, uh, it gives you access to the
1:01:12
Q and podcast questions channel for
1:01:14
Patreon supporters only, uh, where you
1:01:16
can ask those questions. of us. Uh, and
1:01:19
if you're interested in any reading, I
1:01:21
do want to point out too, uh, that we do
1:01:23
have a book list uh, on the website. So,
1:01:26
a lot of the stuff we reference has been
1:01:28
in a lot of the novels and nollas. Uh,
1:01:31
it something to keep in mind that you
1:01:33
can go back and read. And I believe that
1:01:35
is blizzardwatch.com/books,
1:01:38
I believe. I'm double checking right
1:01:40
now. Yes, I believe that is correct.
1:01:42
Yeah. Uh, sorry.
1:01:43
Blizzardwatch.com/warcraft-books.
1:01:47
Uh, check that out. Uh, see if there's
1:01:49
any anything on there that that tickles
1:01:50
your fancy. Uh, I believe it is in
1:01:52
chronological order, as close
1:01:54
chronological order as we can get it.
1:01:56
Uh, but yeah, please send us your
1:01:58
comments, send us your questions, and
1:02:00
hopefully you had a good time, and we'll
1:02:02
see you next week, folks.
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