Daggerheart's anniversary, Paizo's newest game, and D&D's (canceled) video game ambitions

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[music]
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[music]
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[music]
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>> Well met, traveler. Welcome to the
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tavern.
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Did you know that this magical place is
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where more than half of history's
0:37
greatest adventures have begun?
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Before those adventures took their first
0:42
steps, they watched and calculated who
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would join their party.
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See that barbarian over there?
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He hails from the frozen lands. Strong,
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mighty, and full of wisdom.
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I've closed many a nights with that one.
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They call themselves Matt Rossi.
1:00
To the right over there, that woman
1:02
working on her tinkers and mechanical
1:04
devices.
1:05
An artificer of great skill.
1:08
She is cunning and quick, and I've seen
1:10
her bounce a fair share of
1:11
ne'er-do-wells out of here before I
1:12
could even step out from behind the bar.
1:15
She's known as Liz Harper.
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And that gentleman by the hearth with a
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pile of tomes.
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Rumor has it that he is a powerful
1:23
wizard full of arcane secrets.
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But around here, most just call him the
1:27
professor.
1:29
Me, I know them to be Phil Orrick.
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Oh, me, I'm Joe Perez.
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I'll be your tavern keeper.
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Welcome to Tavern Watch.
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Hello, and welcome to Tavern Watch. Uh,
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a round table free form discussion
1:46
about, well,
1:47
things that aren't all tabletop. Uh, cuz
1:50
we like it, and we decided we want to do
1:52
another podcast, cuz, well, I don't have
1:54
anything but free time, apparently.
1:56
Uh, but I still have fun doing it. So
1:57
therefore it's a good thing. Uh that
1:59
laugh there is from our editor-in-chief
2:01
and as well as our resident artificer of
2:04
the renown, Liz Harper. How you doing,
2:06
Liz?
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>> Yeah, howdy. I'm I'm excited about all
2:09
the all the tabletop news today. We've
2:12
got a We've got a good one. We've got a
2:13
good show for you tonight.
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>> We've We've got a lot of news for once
2:17
after a couple weeks of being things
2:18
being very very quiet. So I'm very
2:20
excited about that. Uh and then joining
2:22
us as well as always is intrepid
2:24
barbarian nature comes to the forefront
2:27
more often than not, Matt Rossi. How you
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doing, Matt?
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>> I am alive. And you know, a couple
2:34
months ago I wasn't going to say that
2:35
with absolute certainty. So, you know,
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hey, things things are slightly looking
2:41
up. Like a Like a Like a dinosaur
2:44
looking up being going, "What is that
2:46
flaming rock?" But still, at least I
2:48
looked [laughter] up.
2:49
>> Oh man, that I I almost want to tell the
2:51
story about how uh you know what? Little
2:54
op-ed thing or a little fun thing
2:55
because it is a tabletop and Matt will
2:57
probably be equal parts in
2:59
delighted and horrified by this.
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Um so I was playing Magic the Gathering
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Commander before playing doing the
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recording today.
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Uh and one of my friends decided to play
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his dinosaur deck. And dinosaur decks in
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Magic in Commander get out of hand very
3:13
very quickly.
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Uh they tend to essentially just
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propagate its horde of dinosaurs on the
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table very very quickly and become very
3:20
difficult to deal with. Um I got to play
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a card called Planetary Annihilation. Uh
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which destroyed all of the dinosaurs on
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the table. And it was the most like
3:30
historically accurate representation of
3:32
anything that's ever happened through
3:34
the the Magic the Gathering lens that
3:35
I've ever participated in. It made me
3:38
giggle when I did it. Cuz I was just
3:39
like, "I'm going to planetary
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annihilate. So I'm just going to throw a
3:42
meteor at your planet and kill all of
3:44
your dinosaurs." And he just looked at
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me and went, "Oh."
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>> We'll still have birds, dammit.
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>> [laughter]
3:51
>> He did. He had one bird left. Uh
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but that
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>> [laughter]
3:55
>> Uh but that's not what we're here to
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talk about. Well, maybe later on there
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might be some stuff related to that
4:00
potentially later.
4:01
Uh we're here to talk about a lot of
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stuff happening in the tabletop world of
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which there is a bunch. Uh but I do want
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to start with uh the basics or what we
4:08
do every time which is kind of curious
4:10
what you guys are reading or what you're
4:11
playing or things that you're looking
4:13
forward to or any content creators
4:14
you're looking to plug. Um I'll start
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real quick because I think this is magic
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related but it's also tabletop related.
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Magic the Gathering uh used to do novels
4:25
for all of their releases where you
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would buy like what they called fat
4:28
packs at the time. Now they're called
4:30
bundles. You get a bunch of uh booster
4:32
packs and you would get a full novel
4:34
like actually written by uh you know, a
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real writer not just like some like some
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person in the staff that like had a
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fanfic write writing. Not that there's
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anything wrong with that. Uh but we're
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talking like established authors that
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have written like high fantasy stuff
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were writing these books.
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And it's been a long time since we've
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actually gotten one.
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Uh and I
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I we got one for Strixhaven. Which the
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new set that just came out which is
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absolutely fantastic.
5:02
Uh it is uh written by Seanan McGuire
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who has a plethora of fantasy novels out
5:07
there and is absolutely fantastic. I
5:09
apologize if I'm pronouncing the name
5:11
wrong.
5:12
Um
5:14
it's but it's really cool because it's
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not it's not a dumbed down novel. It's a
5:20
very
5:21
like they know their audience. Uh
5:23
they they know who they're writing for
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and it's very much the more adult
5:27
oriented. So it is while it's a bunch of
5:29
19-year-olds going to college in
5:30
Strixhaven for the first time, it's all
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of the horrible things that happen when
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you are going cross planes
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uh and how you navigate friendships, all
5:40
the dangers there in,
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uh the a universe thrown into chaos, as
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well as dealing with like very good like
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I would say good but like heavy topics
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like uh identity, uh like who you are as
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a person. There is a transgender
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character as one of the main characters.
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Um and it's not just in your face. It's
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done with like subtlety and care. Um or
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a you know, the female characters um as
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most of them are female characters are
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not refrigerated, right? They're
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actually like important to the story and
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they're doing things and yes, they're
6:16
making sometimes bad decisions cuz
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they're teenagers. Uh but more often
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than not, they're just not like they're
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not brushed aside.
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And I'm not quite done with the book
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yet, but it has been an absolutely
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fantastic journey.
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Uh I'm really, really happy that we got
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a a book in this instead of just a
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series of of web short novellas uh that
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were released. And I really hope that we
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keep getting these for the Universes
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Within set because this sets up uh the
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Fractured Reality set that's coming up
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absolutely phenomenally and I really
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seriously, seriously hope there's a book
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for that one cuz I need to continue
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reading this story when it gets to the
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end of it because it is just it is so
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dang. That's what I've been reading.
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What about you guys? We'll go with Matt.
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>> Who's going first?
6:59
>> Matt.
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>> Okay. Um in order to for the this
7:03
question to be fully answered, I'm going
7:04
to have to ask a couple questions. Do
7:06
you guys know who Walter Mosley is?
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>> Not off the top of my head.
7:09
>> Nope.
7:09
>> Okay.
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>> Have you heard of Easy Rawlins?
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>> Yes.
7:13
>> Mhm.
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He, Walter Mosley, created Easy Rawlins.
7:16
He wrote a lot of crime thriller noir
7:20
mystery fiction type stuff starring Easy
7:22
Rawlins. And he's he's a pretty much a
7:25
literary fixture, especially in Los
7:27
Angeles, cuz pretty much his entire life
7:30
has been spent in and around Los Angeles
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and his characters are set in Los
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Angeles.
7:35
Uh but I'm not
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>> Oh, this is a this is this is they did
7:38
the movie in '95. Uh uh, uh, uh,
7:40
Devil in a Blue Dress.
7:42
>> Yeah.
7:43
>> Yes. Okay.
7:44
>> That that guy. Um, but he also wrote a
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book, which is one of my two favorite
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novels, um, about, for lack of a better
7:52
word, superhuman beings. One of them is
7:55
Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children,
7:57
which I really, really recommend. Yes,
8:00
Salman Rushdie, that Salman Rushdie, the
8:02
guy that the Ayatollah Khomeini wanted
8:04
dead. And the other guy, it you know,
8:08
good old Walter Mosley, creator of Easy
8:10
Rawlins, writer of a lot of crime
8:12
fiction, he wrote Blue Light, which is
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It is the trippiest
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novel
8:19
I've read that isn't named Dhalgren.
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Like it is it is crazy. It's about
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people who are exposed to this cosmic
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blue light that's just moving through
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our space, for lack of a better word,
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it's moving through the Earth's solar
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system, and it it just changes them.
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Sometimes that it makes them
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superhumanly strong or gives them a
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strange knack, or, you know, and it's
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in a lot of ways, this book came out in
8:43
like the '90s, and a lot of stuff we've
8:46
seen since, like the TV show Heroes, or
8:50
like the the way that the, you know,
8:53
there's just a lot of superhero-type
8:54
fiction out that is very respo- very,
8:57
very, very
8:59
influenced by Blue Light, despite the
9:01
fact that I think half the time the
9:02
people doing it don't know anything
9:04
about the book.
9:05
Um, but the fact that um Mosley is a big
9:09
deal in Los Angeles, the fact that he's
9:11
written essentially his novel series,
9:13
the the the Easy Rawlins books, is
9:15
essentially like a road map to how Los
9:17
Angeles changed from World War II to
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now. And he's still alive.
9:22
Um, he he's still live and publishing.
9:24
And it's just it's such a It's one of my
9:26
favorite books of all time. The reason
9:28
I've been reading it again
9:30
is partially because I I keep getting
9:32
stuck on the idea of running a superhero
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game. Liz knows full well that I've told
9:35
her recently that I don't feel like I'm
9:37
up to running anything. Cuz I've had a
9:39
lot of I've had a lot of stuff going on.
9:42
But oddly enough, that's pushed me into
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research mode.
9:46
And that's got me like I like I said
9:47
reading Blue Light again. I'm Midnight's
9:50
Children is next up on my list. I read
9:51
that in like 1995.
9:54
And here's the reason I read uh
9:57
Midnight's Children, which again
9:58
superhero book. But the reason I read it
10:00
is because it's it's set in the
10:01
partition of India and Pakistan. Cuz
10:04
Rushdie, if you don't know, he he is
10:06
Pakistani. And the partition between
10:09
India and Pakistan, which which was
10:10
imposed on them by the British,
10:12
uh is a big part of the
10:15
the structure of the book with these
10:17
these mysterious people, the Midnight's
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Children,
10:20
are born right as the partition is
10:22
signed. And it's like they have some
10:24
kind of mythical link to India and
10:26
Pakistan there.
10:27
And that's where their strange abilities
10:29
come from.
10:30
I read that book because I met Salman
10:32
Rushdie at a bookstore.
10:34
Uh I'm not kidding. Like I was in um
10:36
Stratford-upon-Avon in 1995 cuz I was
10:38
going to college there. I I had a year
10:41
where I spent in England. Y- That's
10:43
right. There was a time where Matthew
10:44
was actually well-traveled.
10:45
And I I bumped into him. Like literally.
10:48
And he had guards.
10:50
And somehow they didn't notice me.
10:52
And I'm not stealthy. I'm a big man. I'm
10:55
not sneaky. And I wasn't trying to be
10:57
sneaky. Somehow they just missed me. I
10:59
guess quite frankly I'm so incredibly
11:01
pale. Like I I seriously look like a
11:03
snowbank on legs sometimes. That they
11:06
just I don't know. Maybe I blended into
11:07
something. But I I'm I bumped into him.
11:10
Like literally. Oops, sorry.
11:12
And he looked surprised. But then we
11:13
talked for a couple minutes. And he was
11:16
like, "Why are you here in Stratford?"
11:18
And I was like, "Oh." Um cuz my voice is
11:20
obviously from America. And and it's
11:22
kind of got a New England thing going
11:23
on, especially if I'm surprised.
11:25
And he said, "Why are you here?" And I
11:27
was like, "Well, I'm studying. I I'm
11:29
going to, you you
11:30
um
11:31
Fairleigh Dickinson University. and um,
11:33
um, doing a theater program. He's like,
11:35
"Oh, so you so you must be here to see
11:37
some plays." I was like, "Oh, yeah, you
11:38
know, Stratford-upon-Avon. I want to go
11:39
see the RSC and so forth."
11:41
And we talked for a bit and
11:43
then he like he basically he had told me
11:46
his name and I somehow didn't put it
11:50
together until he left and a few minutes
11:53
later I'm like, "Wait a minute." So I
11:55
went and grabbed the only book they had.
11:57
They didn't have his the famous one
11:59
where, you know, the the Satanic Verses.
12:01
They didn't have that one, but they did
12:02
have Midnight's Children. So I picked it
12:04
up and the first 20 pages I'm like,
12:06
"Wow, this is really interesting epic
12:08
about history and
12:10
and how it affects lived lived lives and
12:12
actual people." Then I'm like, "Wait a
12:13
minute, it's a superhero book." And like
12:15
once I got that it was a superhero book
12:18
it's like it it I tied it to Blue Light
12:20
when that came out like years later I'm
12:21
like, "Wait, you know, this is another
12:22
one where the superhero stuff is just a
12:24
metaphor." And that's what RPGs are so
12:27
good for.
12:28
>> Yeah, and it does
12:29
and it serves as an inspiration for I
12:31
think several other TTRPGs like that
12:33
came
12:34
um, not too long after that when we
12:37
started getting a lot more of the
12:38
superhero genre. I know that uh, some of
12:40
the original minds behind Mutants &
12:42
Masterminds actually quoted that uh, as
12:45
one of the inspirations for like one of
12:47
their settings. So like it is for those
12:50
of you that followed us on the journey,
12:52
it is relevant to the tabletop space
12:53
because of it.
12:54
>> Yeah, and here's the other thing. I
12:56
picked up Paragons. That's That's how
12:57
the whole thing ties together.
12:58
>> another one, yeah.
13:00
>> Yeah, Paragons just came out uh, I think
13:02
I It's not the the Mutants & Masterminds
13:04
setting. It's a completely different
13:05
game, but it's very much inspired by um,
13:08
superhero animation specifically like
13:12
cartoons and animation. So
13:14
as an example, there's we're going to be
13:15
talking about something later on that
13:17
will tie into this, but what what I
13:18
really like about what I like about
13:20
Paragons is that is it a superhero game?
13:23
Yes. Is it like any other superhero game
13:26
I've seen? It's like all of them. Like
13:28
it it it combines stuff in ways that I
13:30
have not seen in a long time.
13:32
>> Yeah, and we're going to talk more about
13:33
that later because there there's we're
13:34
we're hitting a a weird
13:37
uh critical mass with with superhero
13:39
arts or or superhero adjacent
13:42
>> Yeah, but I I just wanted to say like
13:43
got it. I've been reading it. I've been
13:44
inspired by it. But that also ties to
13:46
the other stuff that I was reading
13:48
because I've like I said I've been doing
13:49
research.
13:50
Um because like last year, I don't know
13:53
if you guys remember this,
13:54
but Chaosium had a contest to to to try
13:57
and get them to publish your setting
13:59
essentially.
14:00
>> Mhm.
14:00
>> And I I entered it and I didn't get a
14:02
response at all. Nothing. Not even a no,
14:05
thank you.
14:05
>> And which is it happens.
14:07
>> It happens. I wasn't upset, but I was
14:09
>> also just
14:10
from what I understand from people at
14:12
Chaosium,
14:13
uh
14:14
>> deluged.
14:14
>> the overwhelming response to that was
14:17
far outpaced anything they had
14:19
anticipated.
14:20
>> Yeah, I would think. I'm not surprised.
14:22
But regardless, I still have that thing
14:24
I wrote.
14:25
Cuz I had to sit down and write up a a
14:27
proposal. I had to actually have
14:28
something to say and not other than I
14:30
have cool ideas. So I still have the
14:32
thing I wrote.
14:33
And I've been looking at it in terms of
14:35
how to make that work if I just do my
14:37
own thing. Like if I just put out my own
14:40
my own setting.
14:41
Uh and that's what got me like the
14:44
biggest problem I have right now is I'm
14:45
I'm not it's the opposite of being
14:46
starved for choice. I've got so many
14:50
possible game systems I could be using
14:52
for this.
14:53
>> And and that's going to tie into a
14:54
couple topics that we're talking about
14:55
later, but I do want to move on real
14:57
quick.
14:58
>> And I do want to I do want to ask
15:00
>> thing I I need to mention this before we
15:01
move cuz you one of the things you said
15:03
is mention people who do things. Look up
15:05
Protean City Comics if you want to hear
15:07
a really good live stream of a Masks
15:09
game. That does it. That's all I got. Go
15:11
ahead.
15:12
>> And then Liz, is there anything in
15:14
particular that you have been reading
15:15
lately?
15:16
>> Uh well, actually I just showed up in
15:18
the mail a couple of books from
15:19
Modiphius, the Fallout: Wasteland
15:22
Wanderer, which is the new
15:24
uh just released
15:26
uh Fallout solo version of their Fallout
15:29
RPG. So, I picked that up and I got a a
15:32
copy of uh
15:34
it's their Star Trek Adventures
15:36
Captain's Log, which is the solo version
15:38
of the Star Trek game. So,
15:41
this this confronts the core problem of
15:43
playing tabletop games, which is
15:46
getting together a group of five friends
15:48
where you can play a tabletop game
15:50
together. [laughter]
15:51
And that's that's hard. That is tough.
15:54
So, I've got these literally just showed
15:56
up like 2 days ago.
15:57
Um so, I'm looking forward to getting
15:59
into that. I'm reading uh Legend of the
16:02
Mist, which we've played before and
16:04
we're going to be playing again. So,
16:05
I've got to remember what all the rules
16:08
are.
16:09
I I really love this this one because
16:12
it's like it's so flexible. The rules
16:14
are so
16:16
character creation is so light. There's
16:18
like no guidelines. You come up with
16:20
ideas and then it's like, "Okay, well,
16:22
this is a tag." And then later you can
16:23
use that tag to do something. If you're
16:25
doing something, the tag applies to it,
16:27
but you're kind of
16:28
creating your character with these
16:30
different tags. But, it's all it's it's
16:32
a great creative process, but it's also
16:35
there are so few guidelines here that
16:38
it's you can do anything. So, in being
16:41
able to do anything, great fun, also can
16:44
be pretty difficult. So,
16:46
digging into that one again. But, a lot
16:49
of the a lot of the things I really want
16:50
to read are still on the horizon, like
16:53
Ayon Hearts, the Kickstarter just
16:54
closed. I'm still waiting on Fallen
16:57
London, which they say that's coming out
17:01
soon, that they're going to have a a
17:02
preview version of the PDF for
17:04
Kickstarter supporters. I'm watching my
17:06
mailbox cuz I want it. I want it so bad,
17:08
but uh
17:10
that's that's the nature of the beast.
17:12
There's always stuff on the horizon
17:13
you're you're dying to read. It's just
17:16
not quite here yet. I'm waiting.
17:18
Yeah, that's me.
17:19
>> That's very true. There's always There's
17:21
always more books to to be consumed.
17:24
Uh and I'm sure if Phil was here,
17:25
there'd be 8,000 books that he is
17:27
waiting on or have just been delivered.
17:29
Uh but speaking of
17:31
>> Or is backing. Uh which I get to talk
17:33
about that later. Um
17:35
>> [clears throat]
17:36
>> one thing I did want to point out is
17:37
that as of the time of this recording,
17:40
um Daggerheart has just celebrated their
17:42
1-year anniversary. Uh which I think is
17:46
pretty spectacular for any TTRPG,
17:49
uh even with the caliber of people
17:51
behind it. The fact that not only has it
17:53
survived for a year, but thrived uh and
17:55
grown quite considerably is really great
17:58
news for them. Uh and having competition
18:02
in the TTRPG space is very healthy. Now,
18:05
I am not the largest fan of Daggerheart.
18:08
However, I know that both of you have
18:10
opinions on it, and I figured if there's
18:12
anything you would like to talk about
18:13
with uh your experiences over the past
18:16
year since Daggerheart's release, if
18:17
there's anything uh you would wanted to
18:20
share with us, and I'll start with Liz.
18:21
>> I mean, I think Daggerheart is a great
18:23
game. There's kind of a I think it has a
18:25
good balance between
18:27
letting you
18:29
giving you giving you guidelines in the
18:31
rules, but also letting you be
18:33
narratively flexible to tell stories. I
18:36
think it's a fun game to run. I think
18:38
it's a fun game to play, and I think the
18:40
book has just tons of tools that are
18:43
good for not only running Daggerheart,
18:45
but for running everything. It has uh
18:47
you know,
18:48
uh little kind of settings. I forget
18:50
what they're called. I forget what
18:51
they're called. Kind of little mini
18:53
settings that you can just grab out of
18:54
the book and like pop into
18:56
Huh?
18:57
>> They were called frames, I believe.
18:58
>> Uh no, so the frames are like the
19:00
campaign worlds, but there was something
19:02
else. I don't have my book in front of
19:03
me right now, which was clearly a
19:04
mistake, where it's just like, "Okay,
19:07
here's like a a cliffside." And it'll
19:10
say, "Okay, here are the dangers. Here
19:12
are some rolls you can make as they're
19:13
trying to climb the cliff or whatever."
19:16
Just kind of little little sort of
19:17
events that are just in the book, but
19:19
you could pop into any adventure and
19:21
kind of have a little built-in little
19:22
challenge, which may or may not be
19:24
related to combat. So, I think it's
19:27
it's such a neat toolkit for for this
19:30
and other games. And I I just like I
19:33
like the amount of structure it has and
19:34
the amount of flexibility it has.
19:37
Uh it but yeah, it's you don't get a lot
19:40
of games where within a year they're
19:42
putting out their second book because
19:43
we're getting an expansion book, which
19:45
is coming out in August, which is
19:46
Daggerheart: Hope and Fear.
19:49
Uh
19:50
which uh
19:51
So, that that's soon with uh it's
19:54
rolling out a bunch of it's like
19:55
playtest classes they had in playtesting
19:58
after the first game was released. And
20:00
it's kind of just all the
20:02
all the extra stuff that they had been
20:04
working on that didn't quite make the
20:07
first book because the book could only
20:08
be so long. So,
20:10
uh more classes, more stuff all coming
20:13
in the second book, which I am I'm
20:14
looking forward to that one, too. You
20:16
know, but again, this is this problem I
20:17
was just talking about, the challenge of
20:19
finding, you know, five or six people to
20:21
play game with every week cuz I think
20:23
one of the interesting things about this
20:26
is advancement and the advancement
20:28
process. I think that's pretty
20:29
interesting and it's hard to find kind
20:32
of a long-term game where you can do
20:33
things and play through all of this. So,
20:35
that's really the challenge.
20:39
Uh but they're also uh Critical Role's
20:41
also going to continue the Age of Umbra
20:43
game that they'd been uh the the actual
20:47
play they'd been doing.
20:48
Uh so, I am that one's starting up soon,
20:52
TM. And I'm looking forward to that, as
20:55
well. That's set in one of the campaign
20:57
frames that's in the book, Age of Umbra,
20:59
which is kind of a uh a grim dark
21:03
uh sort of sort of um Dark Souls
21:06
inspired kind of kind of setting. And
21:09
you know, I'm I'm usually pretty down on
21:12
Grim Dark, but it it was the first
21:14
series they did was pretty fun. And also
21:16
for everyone out there who's like, "I
21:17
can't watch Critical Role. There's so
21:19
many episodes. There's so many hours."
21:20
Age of Umbra was a six-episode
21:23
mini-series and then they're doing
21:24
another six-episode mini-series. So,
21:26
it's still it's still a lot, but it's
21:28
more digestible. And it's a it's
21:30
Daggerheart, which I I just I just enjoy
21:32
watching Daggerheart because it's
21:35
the flexibility of the system really
21:37
shines with creators like Critical Role
21:41
that really go into the world building
21:43
and kind of the big heroic setting
21:46
thing.
21:47
Hopefully, that makes sense. But uh
21:49
it's good to see the game is still here.
21:51
And obviously, Critical Role and the
21:52
team at Darrington Press is really
21:54
committed to it and committing to
21:55
growing growing it. And
21:57
it we'll see what comes next.
22:00
>> Matt, I I think I like [clears throat] I
22:02
found a lot of similar ideas to this,
22:04
but I also will point out that
22:07
there's a conservativeness to what
22:09
they're doing at at Daggerheart that
22:11
kind of bugs me, but I think for a lot
22:14
of people is part of the draw. Like, for
22:16
a lot of people, this doesn't
22:18
immediately ask you to toss everything
22:21
that you have as your paradigm for a
22:23
TTRPG
22:25
if you've only played one or two of
22:26
them. Uh it has classes. It kept the
22:29
class structure, which for me, that's
22:31
like, "Oh, that's a downer." I like it
22:33
when the games don't have a class
22:34
structure and you just build the
22:35
character. But for other people,
22:38
having classes means that you have
22:41
like, it's familiar and you pick
22:43
something and now half of your decision
22:46
is done.
22:47
You know
22:48
what abilities you're going to look at,
22:50
you know what the class is, and the
22:52
class informs what you're doing. So, for
22:55
a lot of people, I think that's a that's
22:56
a positive good. For me, it's a
22:57
negative. I don't like it. But that
23:00
doesn't mean
23:01
I always try to do this. I try to
23:02
recognize that nothing can be everything
23:06
for all people. And Daggerheart
23:08
Daggerheart does have a lot of
23:09
flexibility as Liz is pointing out. It
23:12
It is not trying to be everything for
23:13
all people. It is not trying to replace
23:15
games that have more freedom to build
23:19
but less structure.
23:22
This wants you to have enough structure
23:23
that you can get you can feel
23:25
comfortable in what you're doing. Uh so
23:28
that's a for me negative but for
23:29
everyone else positive. Otherwise, I'll
23:31
say that the amount of stuff they're
23:33
working on. Like the the fact that
23:35
there's going to be four new classes
23:37
coming out.
23:38
Uh the all these different adventures
23:41
and environments.
23:42
Uh I mean adversaries and environments.
23:44
Like I think that adversaries and
23:46
environments is kind of what Liz was
23:47
talking about.
23:48
>> Yeah, environments I think.
23:49
>> Yeah. And there's going to be all the
23:51
various cards, so forth. New weapons,
23:54
armor, and other stuff. That's all cool.
23:56
We like that. That's the kind of thing
23:58
we like. What I want to see is I know
24:00
they're doing new campaign frames. I
24:02
want to see somebody else come [snorts]
24:05
along and do something with Daggerheart.
24:07
I want to see what happens with it when
24:08
somebody who isn't Critical Role
24:10
Darrington Press
24:12
does something for Daggerheart, which
24:14
we've got coming up uh if we get to it.
24:16
And that's what I'm curious about. Can
24:19
this become a bigger platform than just
24:23
one kind of game told by one group of
24:25
people? That's what I'm interested to
24:27
see. I think it's got a shot. And quite
24:30
frankly,
24:31
um a game that can actually put pressure
24:35
on Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast right
24:37
now, I I'll take anything. Uh you know,
24:40
you you tell me a game's coming out and
24:41
it's going to make them nervous. I good.
24:44
They need to be nervous. Um for reasons
24:47
I'm sure we'll talk about fairly soon.
24:49
Uh but yeah, I think that that it's a
24:50
good thing to see Daggerheart doing
24:52
well. And I mean the one we played, the
24:55
one that Liz ran,
24:57
uh the the reason I liked it was because
24:59
it is
25:00
it doesn't change anything massively and
25:03
yet underneath it it's like technically
25:05
none of this is magic. Technically this
25:07
is all you know, it it sort of teaches
25:10
that lesson that a lot of people don't
25:11
learn right away that this is all skin.
25:14
Like you this these are all skins, all
25:15
these things we have for classes and all
25:17
that stuff it's just skins that we do to
25:20
to to make it make sense and you could
25:22
take a barbarian from D&D and you could
25:24
run a D&D game set in New York City in
25:26
1974 and you could have a barbarian in
25:29
it.
25:29
>> [laughter]
25:30
>> You just you just need to skin it
25:31
properly and that I think is the thing
25:35
Daggerheart does really well is present
25:37
these things and tell you look at it
25:39
slightly differently and you'll see that
25:40
you can do this. So that I like about
25:42
it. It does have flaws, there are things
25:44
about it I'd like to see changed or
25:46
added. Um but overall I'm I'm really
25:49
happy it exists.
25:50
>> Yeah, I'm I'm I think for me the mark of
25:53
a game that is successful is not just
25:56
how long it sticks around but
25:59
third-party adoption if that makes
26:01
sense.
26:01
>> Yeah, other people doing other things
26:03
with it.
26:03
>> Yeah, like I I like I like being able to
26:06
go back and see like other people pick
26:07
it up and see what they do with it. Um
26:11
my my biggest criticism of Daggerheart
26:14
has always been that it doesn't do
26:16
anything new at least to me. Um but to
26:19
your point, the thing that I do like
26:21
about it um is that it takes a concept
26:24
that has been around for a very very
26:26
long time like you just said
26:29
change your frame of mind, change your
26:32
uh frame of reference uh and look at it
26:34
from a different angle and it packages
26:37
it very very well for people that aren't
26:41
used to it. So it gives them
26:43
something that I know Matt and I have
26:45
known for
26:47
decades at this point um have used for
26:51
decades at this point
26:53
and actually gives it
26:55
like written in stone in a way that is
26:58
easily digestible for more people. So
27:00
>> it basically doesn't force them to play
27:02
16, you know, you know, 16 games
27:05
including GURPS and Rifts before finally
27:07
realizing, "Wait a minute, I could have
27:08
done all this with the first game. I
27:10
just didn't cuz I didn't think of it."
27:12
>> Yeah. So, I mean, and again, my
27:15
criticisms of Daggerheart aside, I think
27:17
that it is good. I know that it is uh
27:20
beloved by a lot of people as far as uh
27:23
people playing, especially TTRPGs for
27:25
the first time. I know several people
27:27
who uh come to my store regularly on
27:30
Mondays, have a dedicated group
27:32
specifically for Daggerheart. Um and it
27:35
they they never have a problem uh
27:39
getting players to that table. So,
27:40
shout-out to them.
27:42
Uh and shout-out to uh all the folks
27:44
from Critical Role and uh again, a
27:47
successful birthday of Daggerheart. Uh
27:50
and hopefully many, many more. Uh but I
27:52
think we can move on from there cuz we
27:54
got so much more to go through.
27:56
Um let's talk a little bit about Hasbro
27:58
for a little while cuz there's been
28:01
>> mention the good without the bad.
28:03
>> [laughter]
28:03
>> It's called balance. We We did We did
28:05
good. Now we got to do bad.
28:07
>> [laughter]
28:09
>> Hey, I didn't do any of this. I'm just
28:10
here.
28:13
>> Uh so, Hasbro has a couple things in the
28:15
news and not all of them are good
28:17
because, well, of course not. Uh first
28:19
things first, uh Hasbro is officially
28:22
canceled uh a D&D video game of unknown
28:25
name from Giant Skull.
28:28
Um this is one of those things that
28:30
Giant Skull has a bunch of other games
28:32
that they've they've put out that have
28:33
been absolutely fantastic. Um they got
28:35
tapped. We were really excited about
28:37
them. They're like, "Hey, we're going to
28:38
do a D&D game." Fantastic. Let's see it.
28:41
Uh and now they've been canceled with no
28:43
other news on the horizon. But Chris
28:45
[ __ ] really ensures and insists that
28:47
D&D video games are still a focus
28:50
despite everything they're doing to
28:52
prove to the contrary.
28:54
Um I might a comment in here that I
28:56
think some people will understand and
28:58
some people won't.
28:59
Reject what your eyes see and believe
29:01
only that of the party.
29:03
Which really seems to summarize Chris
29:05
Cox whenever he does anything.
29:07
I don't know if you guys have any any
29:09
thoughts or opinions on this one but I'm
29:11
I'm sad to see this happen.
29:12
>> I have thoughts and opinions but I think
29:14
Alicia should go.
29:15
>> I'm just think it's interesting that
29:16
they're announcing video games and
29:18
they're canceling video games and it's
29:19
like make up your mind. Are you going to
29:20
commit to video games or you're not
29:22
going to commit to video games because
29:23
it was just at uh
29:26
When I say just it was at the game
29:28
awards that they announced the game
29:29
Warlock which is a D&D game based around
29:32
the Warlock class and that had a big
29:35
splashy reveal but it's you know over
29:38
five months later and now we're oh well
29:41
you know that other game we announced
29:42
we're canceling it. It's just
29:45
It feels like such a scattershot
29:46
strategy on Hasbro's part. Like oh we're
29:49
making games, we're not making games,
29:50
we're making this game, we're canceling
29:51
that game. It's
29:53
What are they actually working on? Show
29:55
me something. That's that's that's just
29:57
all that's all any gamer wants is to
30:00
know there's something cool you're
30:01
working on that we're going to be able
30:03
to play and you don't get that when it's
30:05
like okay here have a trailer. Oh well
30:07
now that game's canceled. Well now
30:11
I I just don't know what's going on
30:12
here. Are they making video games or or
30:14
not?
30:14
>> I
30:15
>> Are we ever going to see any of them?
30:16
>> And I mean and think about and think
30:17
about what leads up to this too, right?
30:19
Like it's the they them and Larian had a
30:22
falling out that we don't know all the
30:24
details of but they managed to piss off
30:26
Larian who made the most successful D&D
30:29
game of all time. Like there is no
30:32
debating that.
30:34
That's just an empirical truth based off
30:35
of
30:37
and then they were all gung-ho to do
30:39
more Uh, and I firmly believe that
30:42
Larian would have absolutely done an
30:44
expansion considering how much they put
30:46
out for uh,
30:47
Baldur's Gate 3 without an expansion,
30:50
how much more they kept continuing to
30:52
put into the game. And would have
30:54
absolutely loved to do more stuff with
30:55
the D&D uh, IP because again, Larian
30:59
Studios as a whole are huge gaming nerds
31:02
like we are. And it was like a dream
31:04
come true. I remember when it was first
31:05
announced and like uh, what is it? Sven?
31:08
I can't remember the the CEO's name. Um,
31:11
>> Yeah.
31:11
>> like his first announcement, he shows up
31:13
in plate mail. Because like he's and
31:16
it's just and it wasn't like special. He
31:17
just owns plate mail. Like he's that's
31:20
the type of person you want making your
31:21
game. Um,
31:23
but then you see this and it's like,
31:25
okay, great. You have clearly alienated
31:28
most of the people that would be willing
31:29
to make these types of games. Why are
31:31
you like
31:32
like you said, just tell us what's going
31:34
on. Like if you're not making video
31:36
games anymore, say it. Uh, if you are
31:39
trying to get out of it, say it because
31:41
again, a lot of this stuff is just it's
31:44
weird. It is just weird timing. It's
31:46
hard to yeah, I don't know. Matt, your
31:48
opinions.
31:49
>> Guys, remember Archetype Entertainment?
31:51
>> Unfortunately, yes.
31:52
>> Sure. Um, they there was like a huge
31:55
push at Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro
31:58
behind them to get this game studio got
32:01
started. And um,
32:03
James Ohlen, who was a big deal at
32:05
BioWare, got his friends Drew Karpyshyn
32:08
and I can't remember the other person's
32:10
name, I'm very sorry. But he got them in
32:12
on this company he was starting
32:15
for
32:16
Wizards of the Coast to make the game
32:17
Exodus.
32:18
>> Mhm.
32:19
>> And then suddenly, James Ohlen just left
32:22
after shadow dropping
32:25
an Exodus, you know, fifth edition D&D
32:28
reskin for lack of a better word. I
32:29
don't know what else to call it. They
32:30
took the fifth edition rules and they
32:32
made this Exodus science fiction TTRPG
32:34
product. And you can barely get it. Like
32:39
it's it was available through like, you
32:41
know, you had to climb through the you
32:42
know, the eye of Mordor and you know,
32:44
sneak
32:45
>> available It was available in print only
32:47
for a very brief period of time, though.
32:49
They're supposedly reprinting it and
32:50
doing a PDF run, which is not yet
32:53
available.
32:54
>> And it's just one of those things where
32:56
um when I saw him leave, I knew where we
32:59
were going. Like immediately, I felt my
33:02
gut turn tight. Uh
33:03
everybody else took the Warlock
33:05
announcement as interesting and cool,
33:07
the D&D Warlock game. I took it as
33:09
confirmation that they have absolutely
33:12
no idea why Baldur's Gate 3 was popular
33:16
because Baldur's Gate 3
33:18
was just like let players do any freaky
33:21
thing they want. Just let them You want
33:23
to You want to play like a
33:25
a serial killing Dragonborn? Sure.
33:29
Um Warlock isn't even going to have dice
33:32
rolls. It's a It's a It's a first-person
33:35
on-rails shooter as far as we can tell.
33:37
That's what they are selling it as.
33:39
>> And we don't know very much about it.
33:41
>> Yeah. They're But that's what they're
33:42
selling it as in the trailers and in
33:44
advertisements they're making. And they
33:47
they have no messaging for it other than
33:49
you're a warlock. Shoot things with your
33:51
warlockiness.
33:53
>> [laughter]
33:54
>> I I feel like a lot of this isn't That's
33:56
not me saying negative. I love shooters.
33:58
I'm totally down for it. You want to
33:59
make a D&D shooter? Cool. But the
34:02
feeling I have, which comes back to
34:05
what we know about Chris Cox and his
34:07
proclivities towards
34:09
like letting actual human beings be
34:11
involved in the creation process is that
34:14
he doesn't like it. He thinks it's dirty
34:16
and messy and he would much prefer to be
34:18
able to automate as much of this as
34:20
possible. And as a result, it's very
34:23
hard to get excited about working for
34:24
that. I think Giant Skull basically
34:26
said, "Look,
34:27
we want to make this really cool game
34:30
based on stuff we've done before like as
34:32
an example, Knights of the Old Republic.
34:35
Cuz people like the guy at Giant Skull
34:36
worked on all the Knights of the
34:37
Republic stuff.
34:38
>> Mhm.
34:39
>> So, they they're not going to do like
34:43
the the paint-by-numbers, except in this
34:45
case it's painted by the numbers. The
34:48
numbers painted this.
34:49
They don't want to do that. So, they're
34:51
not going to do it. And
34:53
I don't think we're going to get a lot
34:55
of games out of this until somebody
34:57
other than Mr. Cox is involved at the
34:59
top. It doesn't matter who's running
35:01
Wizard.
35:02
>> It It's Hasbro.
35:03
>> of Hasbro is going to be have the final
35:06
say in all this. That's just my take on
35:08
it.
35:08
>> No, no. See, and I think you I think I
35:10
agree with you pretty much
35:11
wholeheartedly. And again, not to to to
35:14
dwell on the full negativism, but I
35:16
think the criticism of this is is
35:17
necessary. Uh Chris Cox is a person who
35:20
doesn't understand what makes the IPs
35:24
that he has under his stewardship
35:27
special. And I don't just mean Dungeons
35:30
and Dragons. He doesn't understand what
35:32
makes Magic special. He doesn't
35:34
understand what makes GI Joe or
35:36
Transformers or Power Rangers or any of
35:40
the other IPs that they have
35:44
under their their belt special. And they
35:47
think that it's just the strength, or at
35:49
least he thinks, that the name of the IP
35:52
alone is what floats it. And that it's
35:56
like any other brand, and that slapping
35:59
the name Magic Gathering or slapping the
36:02
name Dungeons and Dragons on something
36:05
will make it special.
36:08
Versus what we all know and love about
36:11
these things that makes them special.
36:14
Like what captures the magic. Like
36:17
Baldur's Gate 3, to your point, they
36:19
don't understand what made it special
36:21
because in his particular case, he's too
36:24
busy running games with AI for his 50
36:26
friends every week. Um which, you know,
36:29
I'll believe that and when I can see it.
36:32
Um
36:33
in instead, it's the fact that we were
36:36
allowed to be
36:37
absolute garbage gremlins like you can
36:40
in a D&D game. You were given the
36:43
freedom of a D&D game in a
36:46
not as much, but pretty close to as much
36:49
as you
36:49
>> can get.
36:50
>> Yeah, in in in a a a game that is a
36:53
video game, right? That has to have a
36:54
definitive end at some point. Um Larian
36:58
did that and that's what captured it.
37:00
Was magic and it captured the magic of
37:02
it. And it's the same thing with
37:04
everything else. Like again, just
37:06
slapping the name on something doesn't
37:08
make it special. And until somebody
37:10
other than Chris Cox is in charge of
37:12
Hasbro, uh I think you're I agree with
37:15
you, you're going to have that problem.
37:16
I I I think the perfect personification
37:17
of this, they're moving from their
37:20
Connecticut office, uh which they've
37:22
been at for generations and have a
37:25
metric ton of like old stuff and like
37:28
prototypes and like generation one
37:31
things that they've produced as a toy
37:32
company
37:34
that they're just trashing. They're not
37:35
donating them, they're not giving them
37:36
to museums, they're not, you know, these
37:39
things could live in the Smithsonian,
37:40
they're not doing that. Uh they're
37:42
essentially just getting rid of them as
37:44
they move to the Renton, Washington uh
37:46
office. And that is the perfect
37:49
encapsulation of the mentality. It he
37:51
doesn't understand what makes those
37:53
items special. He just thinks the name
37:55
is special. Um and
37:58
again,
37:59
it's not all doom and and gloom for
38:01
Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast and and
38:04
their IPs. There are some good stuff
38:07
coming and some more bad stuff, but um
38:11
>> I
38:12
>> Go ahead, Liz.
38:12
>> I do want to note about Exodus, it has
38:15
not actually been canceled, though of
38:17
course there's you never know when bad
38:19
news is going to turn out, but it is
38:20
supposedly getting released in the first
38:22
or second quarter of 2027. So, it's not
38:24
coming out tomorrow, but it's still it's
38:27
still on the horizon.
38:29
>> And I still think they could be good,
38:30
quite frankly, because
38:31
>> I I think it could I mean, this this is
38:33
Mass Effect with some serial numbers
38:35
filed off, and you know I love me some
38:37
Mass Effect. So,
38:38
>> And it's by people that made Mass
38:40
Effect.
38:41
>> That made Mass Effect. So, I mean, I I'm
38:43
going to have trouble trouble saying no
38:45
to this even if it's terrible.
38:47
>> Yeah.
38:48
Cuz how would you know for sure until
38:49
you get it gets here, you know?
38:51
>> Exactly. But it This one is supposedly
38:54
still coming out even though James Ohlen
38:56
has left the company. And what he said
38:58
when he left was that, you know, well,
39:00
or what was being said when he left is
39:02
that, you know, he enjoys creating
39:03
worlds, and this one's kind of world
39:06
created. This is This is where you go.
39:08
And he moved on to do Yeah, he's moving
39:10
on to do other creative stuff. So, I can
39:12
I can see that as a real genuine story,
39:14
and I can also see that as a cover-up to
39:17
bad things happening to the game. It
39:19
could go either way.
39:20
>> cover-up of I've signed an NDA and can't
39:22
say anything.
39:23
>> Yes.
39:24
>> But regardless, I do also want to say
39:26
one other thing, um which is that a lot
39:28
of times the decisions made at top level
39:31
can immediately axe or destroy
39:33
something, but they don't change the
39:35
fact that the people working on the
39:36
thing are the people like who love the
39:39
thing.
39:39
>> Oh, yeah.
39:40
>> So forth. I I one of the things I've
39:43
always found baffling
39:45
is that Hasbro is so disconnected that
39:47
they didn't understand that while
39:49
licensing your properties out to be
39:51
developed by other companies as tabletop
39:54
RPGs makes you money in the short term,
39:58
it does mean that those IPs are out of
40:00
your control, and [clears throat] you
40:02
have Wizards of the Coast right there. I
40:06
mean, I To some degree, I'm actually
40:07
glad they did it because it meant that
40:09
new people got to work on those IPs. And
40:12
I I think that right now, I'm going to
40:13
say this, I I have a particularly strong
40:16
drive to play it, but the Mighty Morphin
40:18
Power Rangers RPG stuff is crazy. I love
40:21
it.
40:21
>> Like I could I could sit here I could
40:23
sit here and talk for an hour about the
40:25
Essence Essence C20 system,
40:28
which is not
40:29
It's the one that they use for They use
40:31
it for GI Joe, they use it for
40:32
Transformers, they use it for Power
40:33
Rangers made by Renegade Studios. It is
40:35
phenomenal, right?
40:37
>> Yeah. So, it's good for those, you know,
40:39
the people who like good games, but it
40:41
is still kind of baffling to see like,
40:43
you know, you just You didn't understand
40:46
what you had to the point where you
40:47
thought, "Well, we'll just let the other
40:49
people do it. It's fine."
40:51
And it's like, "Wow, guy, really?" But
40:53
that's that's it. I just I feel
40:55
sometimes like I I bag too much on this
40:57
man. So, I will [laughter] say I'm sure
40:59
he's very nice in person.
41:02
>> That's very kind of you, Matt.
41:04
>> Uh well, not to talk too much
41:07
guff, but we're going to move on to the
41:08
the other portions of it.
41:10
And this was added in and I want to I
41:12
don't know who added in, but I'm going
41:13
to encourage you to talk about it. Uh
41:15
the D&D Beyond additions. I think this
41:18
was Liz. Would you want to talk about
41:20
that a little bit?
41:21
>> Please talk.
41:22
D&D Beyond has added something called
41:24
drops, which is just It's just content.
41:28
It's content, but there's a weekly
41:30
content drop, which can include all
41:33
kinds of things. It can include little
41:36
maps, little encounters built in the D&D
41:38
Beyond virtual tabletop setting. It can
41:41
include character options.
41:45
All sorts of things that come with your
41:47
subscription. And on one hand, I think
41:49
this is pretty This is pretty neat. It's
41:51
a you know, just
41:53
It's extra stuff. They aren't increasing
41:55
the subscription prices
41:57
uh for the existing subscriptions. It's
41:59
just, "Hey, here's some cool stuff to
42:02
give to our subscribers so they have,
42:03
you know, a reason to hang around
42:05
because the
42:08
the reasons to subscribe to D&D Beyond
42:10
are well, it's a great way to share
42:12
books and character options that you own
42:14
on the site with other people and play
42:16
with them. But if you were encountering
42:17
the problem which all of us encounter,
42:19
which is trying to find a group of five
42:22
or six or seven friends to come and play
42:23
at the same time together, then
42:25
maintaining that subscription doesn't
42:27
make a ton of sense and drops kind of
42:30
gives you kind of gives you sort of
42:33
extra some extra reasons to subscribe to
42:36
that
42:37
because you get little extra bonus
42:40
things. Now,
42:42
where I where I start wondering about
42:45
this is okay, what's what's what's the
42:48
end game here, right? Where are we going
42:51
with this? Because okay, on one hand we
42:53
have drops just kind of little mini
42:55
content things that you can play around
42:57
with. But on the other hand, we have
43:01
Chris Cox talking about D&D as a live
43:04
service.
43:05
And
43:07
how to run the franchise as a live
43:09
service kind of property. Which is
43:14
cuz I was feeling like oh drops, those
43:16
are pretty cool. Yeah, that's neat. It's
43:18
little little extra content. I do
43:20
I I felt good about that. And then I
43:22
read Chris Cox did this interview where
43:24
he's talking about this live service
43:26
model for D&D. So and Cox did say that
43:29
he's
43:30
D&D is still going to produce books.
43:33
But you've got to wonder, does this mean
43:34
they're just going to be rolling things
43:36
out piecemeal and you have to subscribe
43:38
for it?
43:40
It it it just raises a lot of questions
43:43
as to what's the what's the long game
43:44
for this. So I don't think this is bad.
43:47
The drops in D&D Beyond are all pretty
43:49
neat little things. There's some spells.
43:51
There There's all sorts of stuff that
43:53
they've added. They all
43:55
This is only a couple of weeks old, so
43:56
it's not like a giant library of content
43:58
yet. But yeah, it's just a few things
44:02
with a drop every Thursday and it's just
44:06
neat. It's just neat. It's neat little
44:08
extras for your D&D games. If you're
44:10
playing D&D using D&D Beyond. But as as
44:15
is usual, Chris Cox comes in and says
44:17
something and then and now I'm worried.
44:19
Now I'm worried that it's not just
44:20
something extra and cool and maybe this
44:22
is actually a
44:23
a a larger
44:25
decision to just oh well, you've got to
44:27
subscribe to D&D Beyond play D&D on
44:29
online. And you know, it's like there's
44:32
a fine line between having it as a
44:34
useful tool and having it as like a
44:37
limiting factor if that makes sense. And
44:40
I wow, I don't know. I don't know. We're
44:42
going to see. We're going to find out
44:44
what happens because that's uh
44:47
hmm
44:48
>> I at one point in time I talked about on
44:50
this podcast and a few others how uh
44:53
Catalyst, the makers of such games like
44:56
Shadowrun and uh other games that you
45:00
may have been familiar with like
45:01
BattleTech
45:03
have a very adversarial relationship
45:05
with your local game
45:06
to the point where their CEO at one
45:08
point in time said to the face of
45:10
certain people, myself included uh that
45:13
they don't need local game stores in
45:15
order to survive as a game. Uh which is
45:18
why you see a lot of their products
45:19
exclusively at big box stores as opposed
45:22
to supporting friendly local game store.
45:25
Uh their stuff is very hard for us to
45:26
get in.
45:27
Uh we can ordering it as a chore.
45:30
Uh and then you know, what people
45:32
actually want and what you have to order
45:34
are two completely different things. Uh
45:37
again, it's just a very adversarial
45:39
relationship. I fear
45:42
And again, like drops are cool. I like
45:44
the idea of giving incentive for people
45:46
that are subscribed to the service. At
45:48
one point in time, I really liked D&D
45:50
Beyond. Like I'm not going to lie. It's
45:52
it was
45:53
>> the site. It's a really great tool kit.
45:56
It's got a really great set of tools
45:57
here.
45:58
>> Um the problem that I run into is that
46:00
that live services comment.
46:03
Uh
46:04
because I think that's where my fear is
46:08
is that the end game of Chris Cox is to
46:10
make it a video game. Um and what I mean
46:12
by make it a video game, that's sort of
46:14
the background he came from. That's
46:16
where a lot of his executives came and
46:19
they look at video game with digital
46:20
only services that you have to pay a
46:23
monthly subscription fee to access or
46:26
you have to like a premium type thing.
46:29
And I'm one waiting for the other shoe
46:31
to drop cuz like this is really cool.
46:33
But you said something that that
46:36
I've been fearing for a while, uh which
46:39
is how long till you can only get this
46:42
content for this character class or this
46:45
only character class and it's a digital
46:47
only exclusive. And the only way to get
46:49
it is to have a D&D Beyond subscription
46:51
where
46:52
once you as long as you have the
46:54
subscription, you have access to it.
46:57
Uh and the minute you don't have the
46:58
subscription, it's gone. And that would
47:01
be my fear. Now, hopefully that is not
47:03
the case. Hopefully the folks working on
47:05
it are able to push back enough uh
47:08
because as a cool incentive uh with
47:11
extra little things like maps and stuff
47:13
like that that that go to D&D Beyond,
47:14
great. If these are exclusives
47:18
that once you no longer have it are
47:20
gone,
47:21
>> Want to play an artificer? Well, you
47:22
better be subscribed.
47:23
>> Yeah, that's that's the part that I
47:24
worry about. So, right now, that doesn't
47:27
seem to be the case, but we're all going
47:29
to stay vigilant.
47:30
>> I think myself and everybody else. Matt,
47:33
did you have any opinions on this?
47:34
>> you guys have both said and I don't have
47:35
anything new that isn't just, you know,
47:37
making jokes at this point. So, I'm just
47:39
going to say yeah. Uh I don't want to
47:42
see, you know, to play the barbarian,
47:45
you know, you must, you know, have a
47:46
live, you know, D&D Beyond subscription.
47:48
And I know that that'd be very hard for
47:50
them to do that kind of thing,
47:52
but they could make it harder than I
47:54
want to deal with. So, yeah. That's it.
47:57
I I I feel like we're all on the same
47:59
>> Yeah.
47:59
>> Uh but, I think we can move on.
48:01
>> Unfortunately, unfortunately.
48:03
>> Talk about the Justice League game now.
48:04
Talk about the Justice League game now.
48:06
>> [laughter]
48:08
>> Uh I think we will actually talk about
48:09
that because that's a happy one, and
48:11
Matt wants to talk about it. And I'm
48:12
going to let him loose for a little bit.
48:13
[laughter] Um so, Marvel has an a TTRPG
48:15
that's been out for a little while, the
48:17
Marvel Multiverse.
48:18
Uh I have copies of it. I think Matt
48:20
does as well. I think Liz does as well.
48:22
>> Just found my copy.
48:23
>> Um
48:24
>> Look under a chair.
48:25
>> for the year. It's a super fun game, uh
48:27
but it's also been left sort of
48:29
unrivaled aside from third-party
48:32
superhero games, which arguably do it
48:35
better in a lot of cases. Um but, now
48:38
there's a Justice League TTRPG that was
48:40
just announced. And Matt, would you like
48:41
to talk about it?
48:42
>> Yeah, it kind of it's interesting to me
48:44
that unlike Marvel, where they just put
48:46
all their eggs in one basket,
48:49
they're like, you know, "Hey, everybody
48:50
can you can play all these different
48:51
characters." Uh DC tends to put out and
48:54
Since they used They used to have their
48:55
own huge RPG, but it's been years. Uh
48:58
since then, they've put out like there
49:00
was a Batman RPG a couple years ago.
49:02
Uh this is now Justice League uh
49:04
Unlimited. It's based on the comic books
49:06
by Mark Waid, who is listed as a
49:08
co-writer of this book.
49:10
>> Yeah, that excited me.
49:12
>> Yeah. Which means that it feels like the
49:15
specific setting you're getting is Mark
49:18
Waid's own kind of individualized spin
49:21
on the DC Universe. If you've been
49:22
reading his Justice League Unlimited or
49:24
before that, his World's Finest run, uh
49:26
you know that he's kind of
49:28
cherry-picking what he's using. Like if
49:31
something is going on and he doesn't
49:32
like it, he's kind of ignoring it. And I
49:36
I first off, I applaud that because I I
49:38
just want to use
49:40
the characters. Guys, I I don't I don't
49:43
want my RPG to be too locked into what's
49:45
currently happening in their comic book.
49:48
Uh so, I'm happy with that.
49:50
I also um it it's it's also interesting
49:53
to me to see
49:54
how upfront they are with letting you
49:56
play with stuff that other other games
49:58
and Marvel in particular Marvel
50:00
Multiverse is pretty hesitant to let you
50:03
do something like I'm an Asgardian
50:05
you've never heard of. One of the things
50:07
they're saying upfront is you want to
50:08
play an Amazon or how about a
50:10
Kryptonian? We got those.
50:12
And they're just letting the toolbox be
50:14
open. You want to play
50:16
a character who's similar to any of
50:18
these characters from you know DC Comics
50:21
do it. Go ahead and make your version.
50:23
It doesn't have to be exactly that.
50:26
There's a lot of interesting stuff in
50:27
just the material that I've seen coming
50:29
out.
50:31
>> It leans into the the Justice League
50:33
Unlimited thing which that was kind of
50:35
the whole point of Justice League
50:35
Unlimited is like there's millions of
50:37
superheroes and now we're just opening
50:39
up the Justice League to all of them.
50:41
>> Yeah, if you're you're out there
50:42
somewhere you need help from the Justice
50:44
League or you want to be in the Justice
50:45
League just give us a call and we'll see
50:47
what's happening. But I also like the
50:49
thing that Joe kind of hinted at was
50:51
that there are two Colossus in comic
50:55
books. Marvel is currently the bigger
50:57
one and has been for about 15 years well
50:59
before the movies.
51:00
Um
51:01
but DC has the older legacy character
51:04
and if you ask people to list
51:07
superheroes they've heard of they're
51:09
going to go Batman,
51:11
Superman and Wonder Woman before they
51:13
list any Marvel character.
51:14
>> Yeah, technically there's a
51:17
I forgot what it was called. It was like
51:18
the 12 icons of modern American culture.
51:21
Superman is one of them.
51:24
It is one of the 12 which is also held
51:26
by like
51:28
people like
51:29
things like
51:30
blue jeans, right? Like it's as American
51:33
as as that.
51:33
>> Yeah, like one person once pointed out
51:35
that Superman and Coca-Cola are both
51:37
considered so American that people who
51:40
don't know anything about America and
51:43
have lived in river valleys isolated
51:45
from the modern world since the 1700s,
51:48
know what they are. And that's just
51:51
something It's weird to see superhero
51:53
RPGs out there, and there's ones
51:55
adapting Invincible, there's ones
51:57
adapting Valiant Comics, and there's
52:00
nothing from DC. It seemed really
52:02
bizarre. And I I don't know the
52:04
decisions behind it, but the fact that
52:06
Mark Waid is straight-up involved in
52:08
making this this game. First off, Mark,
52:10
thank you for finally admitting that
52:11
you're a nerd who plays, you know,
52:13
TTRPG. We all knew it. We've We've read
52:15
your comics, we're aware. But thanks for
52:17
just going for it. Uh and secondly, I
52:20
just like the idea of sitting down with
52:23
just this big universe and doing
52:25
anything you want with it. And that's
52:26
something I think Marvel Multiverse kind
52:28
of gets afraid of
52:30
uh sometimes. Like if you The thing
52:32
about the game that kind of bugs me is
52:33
like, you know, you you can play as the
52:35
character in question, but you can't
52:37
play like the character. And I always
52:40
said that was weird. Uh cuz it
52:42
you know, the game is flexible enough to
52:44
do it, and I know people do it, but the
52:46
the game itself feels uncomfortable with
52:49
it. It's kind of like, "Well, I'm not
52:50
going to tell you you can't do it, but
52:52
uh whereas, you know, over here, the
52:54
Justice League Unlimited is like, "Yeah,
52:56
you guys like the Justice League? Cool.
52:58
Go ahead. You know, you want to play the
53:00
characters, go for it. But you want to
53:01
play like somebody like the characters,
53:03
that's fine, too." And you don't have to
53:05
use the exact same origin. You can like
53:07
basically use the Kryptonian, but don't
53:09
call it that. Cuz there's other aliens.
53:11
You could be an alien from somewhere
53:12
else. Yeah, so that makes me happy. The
53:15
fact that it looks to be a relatively
53:17
understandable system,
53:19
like the biggest problem with superhero
53:20
systems is at the at certain
53:23
points
53:24
>> Yeah.
53:24
>> Mhm.
53:25
>> So I I think at this point I'll let you
53:26
talk if you got something because I
53:28
think we're both on the same page.
53:29
>> Yeah, I I
53:30
So you're hitting a bunch of the stuff
53:32
that I thought was was noteworthy, at
53:34
least for me.
53:36
Uh the idea that they're letting uh you
53:39
kind of play like the character, not
53:41
just necessarily as a character, which
53:42
is
53:43
a point in its favor over Marvel
53:46
because like you said, Marvel is very
53:48
much you play as Spider-Man. You don't
53:50
play like Spider-Man. You play as
53:51
Cyclops. You don't play like Cyclops.
53:54
And it's not a system that is
53:56
necessarily open for you to just kind of
53:58
do whatever, which Matt and I are just
54:00
That's not how we play games, man.
54:03
>> Yeah, if my players want to do a thing,
54:05
I want to let them do it.
54:06
>> And and and if I want to do a thing as a
54:08
DM or something like that, I want to be
54:10
able to do it, too. Um but the like so
54:12
the Marvel system is more about
54:13
recreating essentially like comic book
54:16
scenarios
54:17
or creating new ones in the frame of the
54:19
comics.
54:20
This is more open-ended and it So, do
54:24
you remember DC Universe Online? I don't
54:27
know if any of you played that at all.
54:28
>> Oh yeah, I remember it. I still have it.
54:30
>> Liz?
54:31
>> [laughter]
54:32
>> Yes.
54:33
>> This reminds me of that.
54:35
>> Hm.
54:35
>> Right? So, like this This reminds me of
54:37
the yes, you can you can play these
54:39
characters, but like
54:41
they they could be NPCs that you
54:43
interact with and you can literally
54:45
create your own. And that was one of the
54:47
things that was like so refreshing about
54:48
DC Universe Online at the time is like,
54:52
yeah, you're in the DC Universe and
54:54
you're doing stuff in the DC Universe,
54:57
but your character was your own and you
54:59
can do that here, which is
55:00
What caught me about that is that is
55:02
abnormal for DC Comics. Wildly abnormal
55:07
for what they do with their IPs. So, I'm
55:10
perfectly okay with this and I'm really
55:12
I'm actually very excited about it.
55:14
I like superhero RPGs. If you go back
55:17
and listen to our live play of Masks or
55:20
literally any of the previous episodes
55:22
where Matt and I have talked about the
55:23
various superhero games
55:25
or the fact that I'm going to try to run
55:27
an Outgunned Superheroes at some point
55:28
for the site. Um like I love superhero
55:31
games. I think they're absolutely
55:33
fantastic and fun when you do them right
55:36
and having another one to throw into the
55:37
mix that I think is potentially, again
55:40
like you said, easy to understand and
55:43
super, you know, open as far as what
55:45
players go.
55:46
I'm here for it. Like kudos kudos to
55:49
them and like here's a cookie for you
55:51
Warner Brothers DC
55:53
for, you know, doing something that I
55:56
never thought you would actually do with
55:57
your IP. Thumbs up.
55:58
>> And yeah, also I one thing before I move
56:00
on or before Liz says something, I do
56:02
like also that they have the archetype
56:05
system where you basically can break
56:07
characters down into their archetypes.
56:09
Like for instance, Batman is both the
56:11
the, you know, vigilante and a detective
56:14
and you can like break those out and you
56:16
use them in your character. Like you
56:17
want to play like a alien like with a
56:20
magic ring who's also a detective? Yeah,
56:24
you know, just makes that match. Figure
56:26
out what you want to do. So I think
56:27
that's cool and it that it's inspired by
56:29
the characters themselves. So yeah, I I
56:31
like it. I'm I'm looking forward to it.
56:33
I just really don't want to see it turn
56:35
into one of those things like original
56:36
champions where you're like, okay, I
56:38
need
56:39
a flowchart and and possibly an Excel
56:43
spreadsheet to figure out exactly how
56:45
this character works because that that's
56:47
not cool. It's not fun.
56:48
>> Liz?
56:49
>> Yeah, I'm
56:50
I'm on board with everything y'all said.
56:52
>> Fantastic. Let's move on then and see
56:54
what else we can kind of get in here.
56:57
Actually Liz, I want you to talk about
56:59
this one cuz I'm actually excited about
57:01
it and I saw you put this in here and I
57:03
had missed this.
57:05
Starfinder has playtested a new class.
57:07
Liz, what is it?
57:08
>> It's a SPACE BARD.
57:10
>> SPACE BARD!
57:11
>> I'M SO EXCITED.
57:13
UH it's called the luminary and it's
57:17
it's a space bard. It's a space bard and
57:20
I mean that's the thing about bards, you
57:22
know, you think of them as kind of the
57:23
standard music playing troubadour sort
57:25
of troop, but
57:28
um
57:29
you know, there's a lot to do with that
57:31
and especially if you go
57:33
far into the future of Starfinder into
57:36
it you're thinking about, okay, well,
57:38
you're making music, you're making
57:39
shows, but this is also a very
57:41
technologically involved
57:44
uh you know, like uh music production,
57:47
and yeah, and society, and
57:50
so it's not just I I mean, it's
57:53
interesting to put kind of the classic
57:54
bard, what do you do with a classic bard
57:56
when you move it far, far into the
57:58
future? And that's what they're trying
58:00
to do with the luminary, and then you've
58:02
got this sort of social support class
58:05
with some controllability,
58:07
which I think it's really interesting. I
58:10
also think now we have to now we've got
58:12
to play a new Starfinder game with like
58:14
five bards.
58:15
>> I it it imme-
58:17
>> It it immediately made me think of Fifth
58:20
Element and Ruby Rhod.
58:21
>> Oh, yes. That's exactly it. That's 100%
58:25
the trope.
58:26
>> Yep, cuz Ruby Rhod is a bard, and I will
58:28
hear nothing otherwise.
58:30
But yeah, I'm I'm super hyped for this.
58:32
>> So yeah, I think it's I think it's
58:34
really interesting because one of the
58:35
things that I love about Starfinder is
58:38
it's kind of tackling the problem of,
58:40
you know, Starfinder is that just it's a
58:42
based on Pathfinder, it's just bringing
58:44
it forward into the future. So how do
58:45
you take those classic fantasy classes
58:48
and use them in this far-flung future
58:51
setting? And it has some interesting,
58:53
unique classes that aren't just straight
58:56
translations of like, I am a wizard, I
58:58
am a fighter. Um
59:01
and yeah, with the luminary, it's it's
59:03
doing it's bard-esque, but a bard that
59:06
uses technology and media, and all of
59:08
those things to really dig into the
59:11
social elements of the game, but also in
59:14
combat do some support, some control
59:16
things. I think it's a really
59:18
interesting class, and yeah, now the
59:20
problem is, where am I going to play it?
59:23
I don't know.
59:24
>> I have a feeling that we're going to do
59:25
another Starfinder.
59:26
>> I I I I think we've got to with so many
59:29
bards. So many bards.
59:32
>> See, here's my thing.
59:33
>> Mhm.
59:34
>> Y'all remember Super Dimension Fortress
59:36
Macross?
59:37
>> Yes, actually.
59:38
>> It's Lynn Minmay.
59:40
>> Yeah.
59:40
>> It's It's like or it's Steven Tyler.
59:43
It's
59:44
this concept that is
59:45
>> We've seen it. We've seen it so many
59:46
times.
59:47
>> Yeah, it's an evolution of the idea.
59:50
Not, you know,
59:51
to me I get why you're saying it's a
59:53
bard
59:54
because it is, but it's a bard in the
59:56
same way that actual bards were bards in
59:58
that they they didn't just write songs
1:00:01
and sing them. They made fun of people.
1:00:04
They like they you know, the satire was
1:00:07
used as a weapon. You This guy's getting
1:00:09
ahead of himself. I'm going to write
1:00:11
this thing about And think of my This
1:00:13
always reminds me of of Aeschylus whose
1:00:16
The Birds is one of the classic plays we
1:00:18
we still have from Greece. It's a play
1:00:20
basically mocking Cleon, the leader of
1:00:23
Athens, for the entire length of the
1:00:26
play. He mocks everybody else, but he's
1:00:29
really going in on Cleon. And one of the
1:00:31
reasons Cleon left to go fight in
1:00:34
Macedonia was partially because he
1:00:37
wanted to, you know, he couldn't just
1:00:38
kill Aeschylus. He he couldn't kill the
1:00:40
guy. He was too famous. If he went had a
1:00:43
murdered, everyone would be like, "Why
1:00:44
Why is Aeschylus dead all of a sudden?"
1:00:46
So
1:00:47
in a weird sort of way that's in this.
1:00:51
That social power you're talking about,
1:00:53
it's as old as actual bards are and
1:00:56
they're bringing it into this class in a
1:00:58
way that D&D hasn't done in the way that
1:01:00
even Pathfinder didn't quite do.
1:01:02
>> Reading it, it also falls on a bunch of
1:01:04
tropes from like if you if you watched
1:01:06
anime that I think fit really well like
1:01:08
Relena Darlian
1:01:10
from Gundam Wing, she is absolutely this
1:01:12
class.
1:01:14
Like stuff like that where it's like
1:01:16
Yeah, I it's cool and like super kudos
1:01:20
to Paizo for
1:01:22
for looking at this and going, "How can
1:01:24
we make this Starfinder?"
1:01:26
And it going, "Here you go." Uh and just
1:01:30
blowing it out of the water. Like I'm
1:01:31
I'm really
1:01:33
It's what makes me excited about
1:01:34
Starfinder in general is all the classes
1:01:36
are
1:01:37
it's not just what fantasy class plus
1:01:40
sci-fi like Matt was saying. It's how do
1:01:42
we make it very distinctly feel like
1:01:44
something in this universe but yet feel
1:01:46
familiar to to anybody who's ever grown
1:01:49
up in like our current generation of pop
1:01:51
culture, right? So like it's I'm super
1:01:54
here for it.
1:01:55
>> I do I do want to clarify I'm not sure
1:01:56
if we started out with this but this is
1:01:58
in play testing right now. You can go to
1:02:00
Paizo and download the PDF for the play
1:02:02
test right now and try it out for
1:02:04
yourself. I'm not sure what book this is
1:02:06
going to show up in but I do know that
1:02:08
when it does show up
1:02:09
>> I'm going to buy it. I'm just I'm just
1:02:11
going to have to buy it.
1:02:13
So, there you go.
1:02:14
>> There you go.
1:02:15
>> Um Joe, since I wanted to actually talk
1:02:18
about it anyway, do you want to talk
1:02:19
about um 13 Omens?
1:02:21
>> Yeah, I I real quick because I think
1:02:24
it's it's interesting. So, the fact that
1:02:27
Matt wants to talk about something
1:02:28
horror related should tell you that it's
1:02:30
interesting.
1:02:31
Um
1:02:33
so Paizo is also talking about
1:02:36
uh they've been talking about a new
1:02:38
horror uh tabletop game and we got a
1:02:41
little bit of information about it. This
1:02:42
case is called 13 Omens.
1:02:45
Um it's the we know know
1:02:48
Wow, words are hard, folks. We now know
1:02:50
that the game engine is a D6 based game
1:02:53
engine using a shared dice pool, which
1:02:56
is a massive throwback to the '90s as
1:02:59
far as I'm concerned where
1:03:01
>> it feels like, you know, Chill or
1:03:03
>> It feels like the original Marvel game
1:03:05
called feels like the original like uh
1:03:07
the original Shadowrun. Um so,
1:03:11
do you want to talk about it, Matt? Go
1:03:12
ahead.
1:03:12
>> Well, I mean
1:03:14
I don't know much about what it's going
1:03:15
to be. I know that Jason Bulman, uh who
1:03:18
is the one
1:03:19
you know, working on it and who is the
1:03:21
main guy behind Pathfinder / Starfinder,
1:03:24
is
1:03:25
he's into horror. He's done quite a few
1:03:27
horror things on his own site, you know,
1:03:28
including a couple Pathfinder tie-ins.
1:03:31
I'm interested to see if this is going
1:03:32
to be like there's certain kind of
1:03:34
horror that I do like. Um and I haven't
1:03:38
brought it up as much because I I feel
1:03:40
like to a certain degree it always kind
1:03:42
of skates the edge between being horror
1:03:44
and being something else. Like The
1:03:46
X-Files is a good example where it it's
1:03:48
there's horror, but
1:03:49
>> In the mouth of madness type stuff.
1:03:51
>> Yeah, or
1:03:53
Unknown Armies. If you guys remember the
1:03:55
TTRPG Unknown Armies, that to me was a
1:03:58
really good example of the kind of thing
1:04:00
I this feels like it might have that
1:04:03
kind of feel. Or you know, the Dark
1:04:05
Matter original Dark Matter game that
1:04:07
that TSR put out before it was Wizards.
1:04:10
Um that game I like the idea of this and
1:04:14
it's like
1:04:15
it kind of feels like a monster of the
1:04:17
week type thing, but with an overarching
1:04:20
mythos to it where you're you're
1:04:22
basically in a world where all this
1:04:24
horror stuff exists and what are you
1:04:27
doing there? Are you are you playing the
1:04:29
horrors or are you going out and
1:04:31
exploring it or what? What's what's
1:04:33
going on? I don't know that, but the
1:04:35
fact that that's happening, the fact
1:04:37
that you're going to have kind of a what
1:04:38
feels like a bit of a throwback both in
1:04:40
terms of its setting like it this feels
1:04:43
like it goes all the way back to Kolchak
1:04:44
and Nightstalker
1:04:46
in terms of the kind of place you're
1:04:48
you're talking about. And then it's
1:04:49
using D6 dice pools.
1:04:51
I was like, did White Wolf sneak into
1:04:54
your, you know, company and put a game
1:04:57
out for like what's happening? Um
1:05:00
so yeah, I
1:05:01
it really does remind me that after you
1:05:03
said it I was like, oh wow, he's totally
1:05:05
right. The idea of it being the the DC,
1:05:08
I mean the Marvel Superheroes game from
1:05:09
TSR. Um which cuz I've I've been playing
1:05:14
a version of that called Phase Rip for a
1:05:16
while now.
1:05:17
And Phase Rip is usable it's it uses
1:05:19
that exact system. So, I'm I'm curious
1:05:22
to see it. I'm I'm happy at the idea of
1:05:26
a horror game from Paizo and for a game
1:05:29
that isn't using
1:05:31
any iteration of the D20 system. Like
1:05:33
this is not
1:05:35
like Pathfinder original or two,
1:05:37
Starfinder or Starfinder two, it's not
1:05:39
any of them. It is its own thing. As
1:05:42
interesting to me see Paizo design, you
1:05:43
know, we've we've got a game here that
1:05:45
requires as part of the the set of its
1:05:50
you know, existence, it requires you to
1:05:52
play dice differently. And that that
1:05:54
becomes like kind of an objective
1:05:56
correlative.
1:05:57
Like if you're rolling on a D20 to see
1:05:59
whether or not you succeed, that's a big
1:06:00
difference from a dice pool cuz dice
1:06:02
pools can have you've succeeded but
1:06:04
>> Yeah, the
1:06:06
I was going to say that's one of the
1:06:07
things that I think is and and maybe
1:06:09
this is a topic for our next tavern
1:06:10
watch when with Phil here, too.
1:06:13
Um, one of the things I would kind of
1:06:16
encourage people if they don't
1:06:17
understand like what the difference that
1:06:19
can make is,
1:06:20
go and watch and and I'm not just doing
1:06:22
this because we're not sponsored or
1:06:24
affiliated with them anyway, but it's
1:06:25
just something I enjoy. Dimension 20 is
1:06:28
currently doing a World of Darkness
1:06:31
game, the City Council of Darkness. And
1:06:34
it's Vampire the Masquerade, the current
1:06:36
version which uses dice pools. And it go
1:06:41
and watch that and then go and think
1:06:43
about D&D where at any point in D&D, no
1:06:47
matter what, you have a 5% chance of
1:06:50
failing and a 5% chance of succeeding,
1:06:53
no matter what else is true.
1:06:55
Um, just because of the way that the
1:06:57
rules are mostly written. There are
1:06:59
there caveats, but in its purest
1:07:01
simplest form that ever that most people
1:07:03
play, that's what it does, right? Um, in
1:07:08
games like this, Matt's right, you have
1:07:10
a dice pool. And it becomes a question
1:07:12
of how many times did you succeed? Did
1:07:15
you over succeed? Did you under succeed?
1:07:18
How is it complicated? Is there
1:07:20
complications?
1:07:22
Um, and backlash therein, so it makes it
1:07:25
a lot more nuanced
1:07:27
and makes it a lot more in this
1:07:29
particular case
1:07:31
fitting for a horror game where
1:07:34
yeah, if you go and watch certain horror
1:07:36
movies yeah, maybe the final girl won,
1:07:39
but at what cost? Or the heroes won in
1:07:43
let's say Alien, which is a horror
1:07:45
movie.
1:07:46
But at what cost?
1:07:48
You know, or
1:07:49
>> this makes me think of?
1:07:51
>> What's that?
1:07:51
>> Uh, in the story of Diablo 4, did
1:07:54
Neyrelle succeed a lot of the things she
1:07:56
did? Yeah. Did it cost her? Yeah. Like,
1:07:59
you you know, stuff stuff happens to
1:08:01
that girl.
1:08:02
>> I think that's part of it, too, cuz that
1:08:03
also captures some of the original feel
1:08:05
of like the original Call of Cthulhu.
1:08:08
Right?
1:08:09
>> Yeah, or you know, any of the Lovecraft
1:08:10
stories where people are finding out
1:08:12
things they shouldn't know. And yeah,
1:08:14
maybe they do stop the unspeakable
1:08:16
horror, but you know, don't talk to John
1:08:19
if you don't want to hear some stories
1:08:21
about fish people.
1:08:22
>> Or or any of the Clive Barker stuff,
1:08:24
like go back and and watch any of the
1:08:26
old Clive
1:08:26
>> stuff, yeah, yeah.
1:08:27
>> Yeah. That's a good point. So, like you
1:08:28
go back and like I mentioned In the
1:08:29
Mouth of Madness, but you go and watch
1:08:31
that and like, did you succeed? Did they
1:08:33
succeed? Did they stop the end of the
1:08:34
world but at what cost? Uh, like it it
1:08:37
it captures that feel where success is
1:08:40
measured in degrees, not a black and
1:08:43
white abject success or failure. And
1:08:46
that's hard to do, and I like the fact
1:08:47
that they're not using their D20 system,
1:08:49
like you said, Liz.
1:08:50
>> I mean, I just think it's interesting to
1:08:52
see Paizo make something that's
1:08:55
very new and different. I mean, we think
1:08:57
of them for Pathfinder and Starfinder,
1:08:59
and those are those are the big those
1:09:01
are the big names, and they're feels
1:09:03
like they're going out on a limb here
1:09:04
doing something that is a different
1:09:06
genre than they usually do, not using
1:09:08
the Pathfinder game system, but making
1:09:11
something new for the system itself. I'm
1:09:14
just curious to see what they come up
1:09:15
with because I love Pathfinder and
1:09:17
Starfinder and it's like, okay, what are
1:09:18
you bringing to this genre?
1:09:20
>> Well, I can tell you at least from my
1:09:22
end as soon as this is available day one
1:09:24
it's a purchase for me cuz I I I have to
1:09:27
know and I I'm going to have to have it.
1:09:29
Like it has to be.
1:09:30
>> Um we we have a couple extra minutes
1:09:32
left I think before we we call it for
1:09:35
today. Do want to cover a couple
1:09:37
quick items from the crowdfunding run-up
1:09:40
because at the time of this recording
1:09:42
there's only so much time left for
1:09:43
these.
1:09:44
I do want to mention Neon Odyssey
1:09:46
something I'm looking forward to.
1:09:49
It's a space opera trilogy for D&D using
1:09:52
the D&D settings
1:09:54
from the people behind the Legends of
1:09:55
Aethelred's live play
1:09:57
podcast and and and YouTube uh
1:10:01
videos
1:10:03
which absolute gorgeous art
1:10:06
uh and they have an entire trailer done
1:10:09
with amazing music from a well-known
1:10:13
band
1:10:14
that if you go and listen to it you'll
1:10:16
understand. Uh but it's just one of the
1:10:18
things where like it's really cool to
1:10:19
see more people doing space stuff and
1:10:20
sci-fi stuff further cementing that my
1:10:24
my prediction of the pendulum swinging
1:10:26
away from fantasy and hard into sci-fi
1:10:28
is absolutely coming. Thank you for
1:10:30
keeping that going. Uh Matt did want to
1:10:34
mention this one I believe so I'll let
1:10:35
him go ahead with the
1:10:37
the time traveler's guide.
1:10:39
>> Yeah, um Time Traveler's Guide to
1:10:41
Dinosaur Hunting which is basically
1:10:44
their their page are like, this we're
1:10:46
going to be a combination of all these
1:10:47
different things like Jurassic Park /
1:10:50
World or Turock Dinosaur Hunter or Event
1:10:53
Horizon.
1:10:55
If you've not seen Event Horizon, I'm
1:10:57
going to say go see it before you come
1:10:59
back and read that again because Event
1:11:02
Horizon,
1:11:03
it's like the movie where Sam Neill
1:11:06
turns into a nightmare monster. It is
1:11:10
It is a creepy freaking movie.
1:11:13
Again, Joe's right that I have not
1:11:15
always said I like horror, but Event
1:11:17
Horizon is one of my favorite movies and
1:11:19
it's horror with like a big horror in
1:11:22
it. It's like yikes. And the fact that
1:11:25
they're doing this with dinosaurs and
1:11:27
there's like one of the things they're
1:11:28
talking about in the packaging and it
1:11:30
This is a Kickstarter and they've got it
1:11:31
in the packaging, so I'm going to
1:11:32
mention it. They're like zombie
1:11:34
Giganotosaurus.
1:11:37
IT'S LIKE [laughter]
1:11:38
WHAT?
1:11:40
THEY LIKE eating brains. Whose brains?
1:11:42
My brain is barely going to be a snack
1:11:44
to that thing. Do you know how big they
1:11:46
are? We're talking
1:11:48
45 ft long, 8 to 9 tons and and it wants
1:11:52
my brain?
1:11:54
I think it's going to have to eat an
1:11:55
entire school bus full of brains.
1:11:57
And it [laughter] just That's just one
1:11:58
of many things in the book. They have a
1:12:00
ton of stuff in it. I just love the idea
1:12:03
of getting to nerd out about
1:12:04
paleontology and also do like a dinosaur
1:12:09
hunt thing.
1:12:10
And it's it looks really cool.
1:12:12
I'm quite interested in it.
1:12:14
It went I looked I did the math because
1:12:16
the amount of its funding goal was 10K
1:12:18
USD and it made well over 400,000 USD.
1:12:24
So yeah.
1:12:26
Um it it did a lot
1:12:29
and and I'm super I'm super interested
1:12:31
in this.
1:12:32
Yeah, I I that's it. That's all.
1:12:35
>> [laughter]
1:12:36
>> And then I think Liz has got a couple
1:12:38
here that I think we should absolutely
1:12:39
talk about real quick.
1:12:41
One, we've got something for Daggerheart
1:12:43
coming out which I think you mentioned
1:12:45
maybe a little bit earlier or was this
1:12:47
map?
1:12:48
>> add this. I don't know what this is.
1:12:49
>> This one's kind of like I just put it
1:12:52
there because we were talking about
1:12:54
Daggerheart and it's the first big
1:12:57
third-party for thing I've seen for
1:12:59
them. I'll be up front in saying that it
1:13:00
don't think it fits the tone of
1:13:03
Daggerheart at all and I should at this
1:13:04
point actually explain what it is. It's
1:13:05
called Heart and it's a Daggerheart com-
1:13:08
compatible release. It's like a They
1:13:10
call it a supplement. Yeah, and it's
1:13:12
basically just new classes, new spells,
1:13:16
new stuff that allows you to basically
1:13:18
go full evil in your game.
1:13:21
Like and it reminded me a lot of the old
1:13:24
Tome of Evil Darkness, a Tome of Evil
1:13:25
Darkness where it's like, you know, some
1:13:28
of that stuff ended up in original
1:13:30
Critical Role like the the emperor with
1:13:32
all the slaves chained to him, that that
1:13:34
was in the original campaign. That came
1:13:36
straight out of the Tome of Evil
1:13:37
Darkness. That character was a was an
1:13:39
established D&D character. Uh so seeing
1:13:43
this book come out for Daggerheart made
1:13:45
me immediately nostalgic for that, but
1:13:47
at the same time it does feel a little
1:13:50
overly. Like some of it's just, you
1:13:52
know, it's like a it's like a Gwar album
1:13:55
cover came to life. Uh but I wanted to
1:13:57
mention it cuz again it is it is a
1:13:59
Daggerheart third-party pro- product and
1:14:01
it's huge. It's like several hundred
1:14:04
pages. So
1:14:05
Yeah.
1:14:07
>> That one's that one's on Kickstarter
1:14:08
right now, so
1:14:10
>> Yep, it is currently it's still funded,
1:14:11
I think.
1:14:12
>> It's It's It's fully funded, but there
1:14:14
are you've got plenty of time to back it
1:14:16
if you if you listen to this when it's
1:14:18
released. If you listen to our podcast
1:14:20
when it comes out, you've got plenty of
1:14:21
time left.
1:14:22
>> Liz, I know you did the Dungeon Craw-
1:14:23
Carl Crawl or Carl
1:14:25
>> I I I did do the the Dungeon Crawler
1:14:27
Carl thing because uh
1:14:29
See, I was not familiar with Dungeon
1:14:31
Crawler Carl, but apparently I have a
1:14:33
lot of friends who read and enjoy
1:14:35
Dungeon Crawler Carl. Um and this just
1:14:38
came out of a a backer kit campaign
1:14:41
where it raised 13 million dollars, so
1:14:43
apparently I'm I'm the odd one out here
1:14:46
not being not being on
1:14:48
>> Yeah, it is it is a tour de force as far
1:14:52
as franchises go.
1:14:54
>> [laughter]
1:14:55
>> Um, but what I thought one of the
1:14:57
interesting things here was that the
1:15:00
campaign isn't just oh, it's not that
1:15:01
we're just making a dungeon crawler Carl
1:15:03
RPG, but they are doing an RPG, but
1:15:07
they're also making dungeon crawler Carl
1:15:10
Unstoppable, which is a solo and co-op
1:15:12
card crafting deck builder. So, it's
1:15:15
you've got this kind of interesting sort
1:15:17
of two types of games in a single
1:15:19
campaign. And I also think it's
1:15:21
interesting to see how it's it feels
1:15:25
like it's becoming very common for
1:15:28
new games and for new Kickstarters and
1:15:30
crowdfunding to come out and it's coming
1:15:33
with a
1:15:35
uh
1:15:36
yeah, a solo game as well as a big
1:15:38
multiplayer game. But, of course, if you
1:15:41
are already familiar with the dungeon
1:15:42
crawler Carl books, this is same world,
1:15:46
same Carl, uh and just you get to play
1:15:49
too, for for better and for worse.
1:15:52
>> Yeah. Uh so, if you are excited about
1:15:54
dungeon dungeon crawler Carl stuff,
1:15:56
there you go.
1:15:58
Uh but, I think that's going to do
1:16:00
>> say someone's excited about it.
1:16:01
>> I I mean
1:16:02
>> Someone 13 13 million dollars worth of
1:16:06
people are excited over it. I don't know
1:16:07
how many people that adds up to.
1:16:09
>> And and not only 13 million people, but
1:16:11
the fact that like dungeon dungeon
1:16:13
crawler Carl is a has
1:16:15
eight books currently released in its
1:16:16
series with 10 uh total planned. Uh and
1:16:21
it is voraciously being read by at least
1:16:23
everybody in my immediate sphere. I'm
1:16:26
coming late to the game as well. Uh same
1:16:28
with Liz. On Free Comic Book Day, uh
1:16:30
there was a Dungeon Crawler Carl comic,
1:16:33
uh of which it was the first thing to
1:16:35
disappear from the table, uh which
1:16:38
>> [laughter]
1:16:39
>> I again, I didn't even I knew it existed
1:16:41
because a random person on YouTube I
1:16:43
watched made a clay
1:16:45
a clay figurine from it and then that's
1:16:48
how I knew it existed. But I think
1:16:50
that's going to do it for us on this
1:16:51
one. I do want to remind you that
1:16:52
Blizzard Watch, Tavern Watch, and all of
1:16:54
our other imprints are made possible due
1:16:56
to the generous contributions at
1:16:57
patreon.com/blizzardwatch.
1:16:59
Your continued support means that this
1:17:01
podcast site and community is able to
1:17:02
thrive and grow. Blizzard Watch
1:17:04
supporters enjoy exclusive benefits like
1:17:06
early access to the podcast, a better
1:17:08
chance at having your question answered
1:17:09
on our podcast with a Q and an A for a
1:17:10
site experience. Again, friends, if you
1:17:14
have questions for this or any of our
1:17:15
podcasts, we encourage you to send those
1:17:16
in. [email protected].
1:17:19
Specify the show that it is for in the
1:17:21
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1:17:23
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1:17:25
also hit us on Discord. We have the Q&A
1:17:27
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1:17:28
everybody. Same rules apply. And if you
1:17:30
are a Patreon subscriber, we do have the
1:17:32
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1:17:35
where we tend to look there first as a
1:17:37
way of saying thank you for helping us
1:17:38
keep the lights on.
1:17:40
But with that, friends, we'll see you
1:17:42
next time.
1:17:42
>> Bye.
1:17:44
>> [music]
1:17:54
[music]

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