Up next in 10
Lore Watch this week is all about what might be next for World of Warcraft which is quite apropos since we're waiting on BlizzCon. First is the predictions for what we might see in The Last Titan and beyond. The Arathi and Avaloren is one possibility, and Matt, Joe, and Eric explore how that could come to pass, either as a tentpole for the next expansion, or just a part of a patch. The Arathi makes a lot of sense, when we already know we'll see so many nostalgic beats in The Last Titan.
Then we move on to the cosmology and the Titans. We've seen various circles from the cosmology chart from Chronicle represented by specific Titans -- Eonar and Nature, for instance, or Aman'thul and Order. One thing we haven't seen, though, is a Titan of the Void, or Disorder as per the Chronicle chart. What would a Titan like that look like, and how would it oppose the current Pantheon?
Of course, because this is Lore Watch, one of these two responses invokes the Tacoma Narrows bridge.
If you want even more background story, we also have a guide to every Warcraft book in chronological order: https://blizzardwatch.com/warcraft-books/
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0:04
[music]
0:09
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:12
table free form discussion about lore in
0:13
your favorite media. I'm your host, Joe
0:15
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:17
from Blizzard Watch, and I've got two
0:19
marvelous co-hosts with me today. First,
0:22
he's engaged in another round of
0:24
Cyberpunk 2077 and Mayhem and
0:26
accidentally becoming overpowered and
0:28
almost godlike. I think it's Matt Rossy.
0:30
How you doing, Matt?
0:31
>> Seriously, you don't even have to try.
0:34
Like, you just just play the game, take
0:36
the quests, uh, if you go to if you go
0:39
to Dogtown early, which is like at this
0:42
case, I think I went there around level
0:43
20, you will come out of it practically
0:45
near endgame and geared up like the
0:48
devil. Like, it's nuts. I I have stuff
0:51
on me that I honestly could just I
0:55
literally just walk through people and
0:56
shoot all of them while they're still
0:58
busy trying to aggro me. It It's insane.
1:01
It's It's also a lot of fun, but it's
1:03
one of those things about games when you
1:05
get overpowered to a certain point, you
1:08
have to enjoy that or you will not enjoy
1:10
the game anymore. There's certain games
1:13
like when I was playing Kingdoms of
1:14
Amalor, you get to a point in Kingdoms
1:15
of Amalor where the story is like why
1:18
can't I just like fix all this? I I feel
1:21
like I could should be able to just walk
1:23
in straight through everything cuz
1:25
because I don't know if you noticed,
1:26
every time these guys attack me, they're
1:28
dead within seconds. I feel like this
1:30
doesn't have to go on for another two
1:32
chapters. I feel like we could finish
1:34
it. So that it for Cyberpunk it's not
1:37
bad because you still got the clicking
1:39
the ticking clock of you know you're
1:40
going to die but for other games it's
1:43
kind of problematic
1:45
and then not problematic but also
1:48
preparing for a arduous journey to the
1:50
other coasts of our uh nation for the
1:53
Blizzcon event. It's Eric ODay. How you
1:56
doing Eric?
1:57
>> Yeah I'm good. I am getting ready. I've
1:59
never been to Blizzcon and I I'm
2:02
excited.
2:03
Don't go near the mental asylum.
2:07
[laughter] There's a mental asylum. I
2:09
when I went to Blizzcon, I ended up like
2:11
being mistaken from somebody who escaped
2:13
from it. I'm not even kidding. Like
2:17
going to Blizzcon, it's like a gravity
2:19
well. Like all the people going there
2:21
are all like we're all nerds, right?
2:24
>> Yeah.
2:24
>> So just be careful because for some
2:26
reason the reality of the area becomes
2:29
extremely plastic.
2:30
>> Weird things happen. I did enjoy the
2:33
very first Blisscon I ever attended in
2:36
2008,
2:38
I want to say. Um, there was also a
2:41
Bible convention happening at the
2:43
convention center at the same time. That
2:45
was a very entertaining uh day as people
2:47
tried to save our soul as we were
2:49
showing up dressed as various characters
2:50
from World of Warcraft.
2:52
>> Um,
2:53
>> well, I've got my got my Lore Watch
2:55
t-shirt ready and I will be there.
2:57
>> Wonderful. And friends, I'm certain that
3:00
we're going to have a ton of questions
3:01
from you at home when Blizzcon happens.
3:04
Uh, and you we want those. Send those in
3:06
and make sure you send in those
3:07
questions.
3:08
>> Give us your questions.
3:09
>> Give us your questions.
3:10
>> I have several of us. [laughter]
3:14
>> You can send them into podcastbas.com.
3:17
We ask that you specify the show that it
3:19
is for in the subject line as well as
3:21
any special pronunciation of your name.
3:23
If you want to hit us up on Discord, we
3:24
have two channels set aside. We have the
3:26
Q and podcast questions channel set
3:28
aside for everybody. Same rules apply.
3:30
If you are a Patreon subscriber, as a
3:33
way of saying thank you for helping us
3:34
keep the lights on. We have the patron Q
3:37
and podcast questions channel set aside
3:39
where we tend to look there first.
3:42
Again, just make sure you tell us what
3:44
show it's for and any special
3:45
pronunciation of your name so I don't
3:47
call you random stuff or mispronounce
3:49
it, which I might do anyway depending on
3:51
who you are. Looking at you, Razerberg.
3:54
So, our first question,
3:55
>> Forgive me, my friend,
3:56
>> never.
3:58
>> Our first question comes from Storm
4:00
Winage. Uh, and this one starts with a
4:02
tinfoil hat. Supposedly, one of the
4:05
panels at Blizzcon will be called World
4:07
of Warcraft. What's next? With that in
4:09
mind, do you guys think what do you guys
4:11
think comes after the World Soul Saga?
4:13
My mini my money my mini my money is on
4:16
Avalor, a third major continent, and the
4:19
rise of an Arafi Empire. maybe even
4:22
something similar to Warcraft 3, where
4:24
the Alliance and Horde end up fighting
4:26
alongside each other against a massive
4:28
new faction. And honestly, my guess for
4:30
that third faction, the Arai Empire.
4:34
Um, I'm sure all of us have opinions.
4:36
I'm going to start because it's my
4:38
prerogative and I can I
4:40
>> can do this. I'm hosting.
4:41
>> Exactly. I do think that the Arai Empire
4:44
is not going to start as friends. I do
4:46
think that there is going to be friction
4:48
there and it seems like the most logical
4:50
place for it to be is with the Arathy.
4:53
They have a very very specific view on
4:57
how things should be, how the light
4:59
should be wielded. And I'm assuming
5:01
their worldview follows suit at least
5:04
from the context clues we've gotten
5:05
through the the folks that we've met in
5:07
Holofal. The folks in Halofal have been
5:10
separated for at least a generation
5:14
from the Arathy Empire proper, maybe
5:17
longer because again most of them are uh
5:21
I mean I don't know what else to call
5:22
them. So we're going to call them half
5:24
half elven in origin at this point. The
5:26
elves the elves and the humans you know
5:29
co-mingled and bred in the Arathy
5:30
Empire. And I don't know that we have
5:34
many, if any, pure humans left in the
5:36
Arai Empire that did not fall to the
5:39
sway of the void. I'd have to go back
5:42
and look. I may be wrong about that. I
5:44
probably am, but I haven't looked at
5:45
everybody's ears, so it's hard to tell.
5:47
Uh,
5:48
>> I remember there's one or two people who
5:50
don't have the elven ear model. Most of
5:54
them do. One of them has full elven ear
5:56
model cuz he's a full He's
5:58
>> a full elf.
5:59
>> Yeah. But most of them have that kind of
6:01
sideways originally scene on our little
6:04
blue friend whose name is completely
6:06
escaping me even though he was the
6:07
aspect for a long time. I think he still
6:08
is aspect, doesn't he? Thank you.
6:10
>> Caligos is the blue aspect proper.
6:12
>> Caligos. The ears they gave him that
6:15
that they had established were, you
6:17
know, because he's part elf. Those are
6:19
the ears that the Arathy have. So, I
6:22
think the vast majority of Arthi are
6:24
either
6:26
children of or it's a family line going
6:29
back who knows how long.
6:31
>> Uh, it could be at this point that most
6:32
Arrai are just straight up both and they
6:35
keep marrying other people who are
6:36
straight up both and that's just what
6:38
they look like now.
6:39
>> It probably has at this point because
6:40
there was a small enough initial
6:42
population, right?
6:43
>> Yeah. There couldn't have been too much,
6:46
you know, oh, we have the humans over
6:47
here and the elves over here. Like
6:49
>> we don't even really know how they got
6:51
there.
6:52
>> Yeah, we don't know the full story of
6:53
that yet. We have their legend, but that
6:55
could be anything. I mean, I think we've
6:57
pos we've we've made the assumption and
6:59
I think it's the most likely one is that
7:00
they were teleported there from some
7:02
form of like Naruesque technology or
7:05
something born of similar technology to
7:08
what we saw in Argus with the crystals
7:10
and whatnot. And that's what
7:11
>> I mean, considering that they found a
7:12
big floating thing in the sky of the
7:15
underworld that looks an awful lot like
7:17
Naru's built that Yeah. I I I got you on
7:19
that one.
7:20
>> Yeah, but I do think that's where our
7:21
our main point of friction is going to
7:23
be. And I also think that because of us
7:25
and because of our interaction with the
7:28
Arathi of Hollowfall, we're probably
7:30
going to wind up going through a civil
7:32
war in the Iraqi Empire. And I think
7:35
that's going to be mostly based off the
7:38
fact that again, think of the changes
7:40
the Iraqi have gone through since we've
7:41
interacted with them. They're not at war
7:44
with the the bugs anymore, right? the
7:47
the they accepted that that was a whole
7:50
separate faction. We now have leadership
7:52
in charge there that doesn't want
7:54
anything to do with the old gods or
7:56
zealot just wants to live their life and
7:59
isn't attacking the anymore. So the
8:01
technically are not under threat of
8:03
death anymore. They've also started
8:05
emerging from the grounds and
8:07
interacting with the earthn and Faren
8:11
has gone and made pilgrimages to the the
8:14
land of her people essentially has gone
8:18
an
8:18
>> yeah has gone to you know the the where
8:22
the humans have descended has learned
8:23
about it has gone has you know become
8:26
close with Anduin and the nature of that
8:28
relationship is not part of speculation
8:30
for this but now I think she becomes the
8:34
biggest threat threat to the emperor,
8:36
right? The Iraqi emperor, the one who
8:38
has the hold of faith and and leadership
8:41
in the Array Empire. Fen has another
8:43
perspective. She's also of the bloodline
8:46
of the like the true leadership of the
8:49
Arathi. She is the bridge between the
8:51
humans that were left behind and the
8:54
Arathy Empire and is now essentially
8:58
while she is a warrior, she also
9:00
understands peace and leadership and is
9:05
essentially a confidant to the human
9:07
ruling empire on the mainland. So she
9:11
becomes a threat. And I could not I mean
9:14
I could see a world where an emperor
9:16
who's maintaining peace and view and
9:19
sees that the Iraqi traditional the
9:21
empire traditional worldview that
9:23
they've established is the like it's
9:27
what you need to do. It's what you need
9:28
to preserve would try to kill Faren and
9:31
that starts a civil war. Um I do think
9:35
that that's probably the next logical
9:37
step after the world soul saga. This
9:40
might also be tied up with the Last
9:42
Titan stuff as well because the other
9:45
thing that I think might be relevant
9:46
here and mild spoilers for what's been
9:49
data mined but again it's data mine.
9:51
It's not set in stone. We are told that
9:56
Zalot wants to merge or consume or
9:59
subsume the world soul of Azeroth.
10:04
And how do you fight darkness?
10:07
You fight it with light. And so this
10:10
idea of maybe going to the Arathy and
10:13
trying to uh bring them in or trying to
10:17
you like understand their relationship
10:19
with the light which is a lot different
10:22
than the vanguard of light. It's way
10:24
more militaristic but also like I don't
10:27
want to say purity but I can't think of
10:30
a better way to to phrase it. They they
10:32
burn away the darkness, right? That's
10:34
their whole thing. They wield it as
10:37
fireable situation. Yeah. a cleansing
10:39
fire crucible, right?
10:41
>> So, I could see maybe and and I don't
10:44
know how likely this is, but we don't
10:46
beat Zalat in the third act. It just
10:50
bleeds into the Last Titan and The Last
10:53
Titan starts with us trying to call upon
10:55
the Arai Empire. But yeah, that's th
10:57
those are my two cents. And now I'm
10:59
gonna shut up and let you guys talk.
11:01
>> Eric was trying to talk, so I'm gonna
11:02
let him go.
11:04
I think that the the Arathy Empire is an
11:07
obvious it's got to happen sometime. We
11:10
know we're going to Northend and the
11:11
Last Titan. Could that whole area of the
11:15
Arathy Empire be, you know, single
11:17
continent in 12 13 that be 12 13.1? I
11:22
don't know. I kind of want more than
11:23
that. I like Stormwind said it's, you
11:27
know, the new a new continent that and
11:29
that could be a whole new expansion. I
11:31
like that. I think it's it's got to be
11:33
done pretty soon, right? Because we've
11:36
had so much we haven't had little hints
11:37
of what we might get someday. So, it
11:40
does make sense that it would be next.
11:43
Um, as we've talked about before, I
11:44
would love to see the next chapter of
11:46
World of Warcraft have a kind of loose
11:48
going back to the old world and seeing
11:51
what's been going on, updating. I think
11:53
we've talked about it like every other
11:54
week for the last couple months, but
11:57
knowing that the revamp of Everong Woods
12:00
was really wellreceived and most people
12:02
really liked it, knowing that they're
12:03
doing that same for North Rend for The
12:07
Last Titan, I think it I think we're due
12:10
for a revamp of Calumdor and the Eastern
12:12
Kingdoms. And I think we might get what
12:15
we could call the Homecoming Saga after
12:17
that. two expansions, one then the
12:19
other, where the place we're going is
12:22
back home, and we're getting updates on
12:23
all of that, and there will be dungeons
12:25
and raids, but they won't be connected
12:27
in a huge overarching. There won't be a
12:30
huge bad guy. There won't be uh cosmic
12:34
ending threat. We'll just get some time
12:36
at home, and there will be, you know,
12:38
things around the edge and hints of
12:40
where we're going next. There will be
12:42
more stuff with the Empire. I would I
12:44
would love to see that kind of
12:47
uh how has Tenerys changed wi with the
12:50
places that we're you walk around now
12:52
and it's still you know it looks like
12:54
the cataclysm happened yesterday like
12:56
it's been over a decade. How has the
12:59
land changed? How have the people
13:00
adapted? How did how is Unoro reacting
13:03
to the Titan activity and Kithics being
13:06
around? Um, I I think it's you can only
13:10
go so long while having the core
13:13
original part of the game and the
13:15
continents be just so old. And I think
13:18
that Cataclysm changing it all was a
13:21
thing and they learned lessons from that
13:23
and the new updates. And I think that
13:26
they are probably in a good spot to be
13:28
able to do it in a good way that will be
13:30
wellreceived. So I I think that what's
13:33
next in World of Warcraft might be that.
13:39
Matt,
13:41
>> first off, I think Joe's wrong. I think
13:43
they are going to be our friends.
13:44
Unfortunately, they're going to be Ross.
13:47
Um, that's [laughter] the first problem.
13:49
Like, it's it's like, you know, buddy,
13:52
I'm trying, but you're such a jerk. It's
13:54
It's real hard.
13:56
>> That's my little joke. But I do I do
13:58
have some ideas. First off, I think Joe
14:01
is forgetting one of the things they do
14:03
from time to time over at Blizzard,
14:05
which is to take something that could be
14:06
an entire expansion and make it the last
14:08
patch of the game.
14:11
So, I think
14:12
>> they're calling it as the first patch of
14:14
the next expansion. But, yeah,
14:15
>> I don't I don't think you're going to
14:17
get that because that's what you
14:18
expected with you you've actually talked
14:21
about a couple of times now. You thought
14:22
that was going to happen with with us
14:24
going to Drraanor. You thought that was
14:26
gonna happen with us going to Argus and
14:29
you thought that was gonna happen with
14:31
us going to Oh, and I can't remember the
14:33
name of it even though it's the ethereal
14:35
home world and we just did a whole thing
14:37
on it.
14:37
>> Caresh.
14:38
>> Caresh. You thought Caresh was also
14:40
going to be possibly the first thing or
14:41
the next thing.
14:42
>> I
14:44
I maintain that that was a pivot and I
14:46
don't think I was wrong on that one. I
14:47
think that was
14:48
>> I'm not saying you were wrong. I'm just
14:50
saying they have this tendency to
14:52
realize, oops,
14:54
we can't put this when we expected it to
14:57
be because we don't have anything ready
14:58
yet. They've done this three times.
15:02
whether or not they did it on purpose or
15:03
not for two of those times, but I think
15:05
it's very likely that the last
15:08
patch of this expansion is going to be
15:11
going to Avaloren and it's going to be a
15:14
similar thing to Argus with it being
15:16
this huge area with multiple zones.
15:20
>> Real quick,
15:20
>> that's my first thought.
15:22
>> Real quick, and maybe this is just for
15:23
clarity sake here. Are are we saying
15:26
that we think Avalor is the Arai Empire
15:29
or
15:30
>> That's what I think. I think the the
15:31
Arai Empire is on the continent of
15:33
Avalor as as postulated by uh Stormwind
15:37
here. I think he's got a I think he's
15:40
got a chance of being right. Let me put
15:41
it that way.
15:41
>> I I mean maybe I mean but also one of
15:44
the things that really stuck out to me
15:46
too is that we might have already been
15:48
on Avalor this entire time with the war
15:50
within. Like we we never really talked
15:52
about that. We
15:54
>> I mean that's possible
15:56
>> because I mean the earth and empire
15:57
essentially or the everything there was
16:00
essentially a prison. They were trapped.
16:02
They were stuck in a stasis right there.
16:04
>> Yeah. But they talked about that there
16:06
was actually the talk about the prison
16:07
area and then there was the talk about
16:09
Avalor as a continent. There was two
16:11
different entries. I don't know.
16:13
>> Yeah.
16:13
>> You could be right. You could absolutely
16:15
be right. But either way, if Avalor's
16:17
not where the Arathi are, the where the
16:19
Arathi are is still going to be a place
16:21
we could end up going to. Yeah, that's
16:23
>> and I think it could end up being the
16:24
end of this expansion. Then we will have
16:27
the whatever the last Titan ends up
16:29
doing, wherever we end up going, whether
16:31
we go there first, whether we go there
16:33
last in this expansion, maybe the whole
16:37
of the next expansion is Valatath trying
16:40
to subsume the world soul. I don't know.
16:43
But in in terms of answering the
16:45
question of what's coming after it, I
16:48
think we are going to the moon.
16:53
That is I that's been my thing this
16:55
whole time. The reason I think we're
16:57
going to the moon is that at some point
17:00
either during the last Titan
17:03
or after it we're going to find out what
17:06
Aloon's deal is
17:09
like how is Aloon the sister of of you
17:13
know the winter queen? How is what is
17:15
Aloon's deal? Why is there a moon named
17:17
Aloon? you know where she where she was
17:19
keeping one of the titans you know what
17:22
is up with this whole makes you know
17:26
three aspects
17:27
there's the night warrior there's you
17:30
know like the youthful maiden type and
17:32
then there's the crone type what is
17:34
going on with what is she and how is it
17:38
like at least in one mythology
17:41
you know should have a boyfriend hanging
17:44
out
17:45
like there should be a son god that
17:47
somewhere that's also involved with the
17:50
world and we know that the Torin are
17:52
getting power from it
17:55
like an Musha an is powering the Torin
17:59
paladins.
18:02
What where is it? Where is what is anch?
18:04
Where is ance?
18:06
>> We we kind of thought for a little while
18:07
that that might be an in Holofall seems
18:10
to not be the case. But the thing does
18:13
look awful Naru built.
18:16
>> Like is it possible that and we we know
18:19
that a tier of Aloon was used to awaken
18:21
Zera, the prime Naru, which normally
18:25
should only work from another Naru that
18:27
Zer is related to.
18:30
Is that something?
18:33
Like we joke about it all the time
18:36
because you know it was Ann who came up
18:38
with it back when we were at the
18:39
previous place about the idea that wow
18:41
aloon reminds me of a naru and having
18:44
you know having the the night I was very
18:47
very politely telling villain that
18:49
please stop saying that.
18:52
But what if an arrow you know what if
18:54
she or something beyond anaru but they
18:58
that made them. We know that a that
19:00
Aloon can create a champion who can wipe
19:02
out an old god.
19:05
Like we know that that can happen. The
19:07
power of Aloon can wipe out an old god,
19:08
can destroy it.
19:11
How does it do that?
19:14
Does it just kill it the way that that
19:17
we saw, you know, Ammon fail to do or
19:20
does it convert it into something? Like,
19:24
did we make a whole bunch of Naru out of
19:26
an old god?
19:28
Like, did we break it up and make it
19:30
into all these Naru that switch back and
19:32
forth between life cycles?
19:35
Because that's what Aloon does.
19:40
I think we're going to at some point
19:41
have to go to the moon to find out a
19:43
little bit more. I'm not even saying
19:45
we're going to find out everything about
19:46
Aloon, but I think at some point after
19:49
The Last Titan, I think we're going to
19:51
basically be done with Zalat and the the
19:55
void as something outside of our
19:58
cosmological comprehension. We're gonna
20:01
know that the void is part of the of the
20:03
plan of the first ones. And that means
20:05
to me it feels an awful lot like Aloon
20:07
is also part of the plan of the first
20:09
ones.
20:11
And how exactly does that work? What is
20:13
she? So So yeah, that's where I think
20:16
we're going to go. I think we're going
20:17
to the moon. If I'm wrong, eh, I swung
20:20
for the fences. I I don't feel bad if I
20:22
didn't get it right. Uh but I definitely
20:24
think at some point we're going to deal
20:26
with the Arathy. At some point we're
20:28
going to deal with a lot of different
20:30
things.
20:30
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think it's going to
20:31
be sooner than later just because of the
20:33
way that the story threads seem to be
20:34
going with a lot of this stuff. The
20:36
>> Yeah, it seems more likely that it'll be
20:39
before or during the last Titan that
20:41
we'll we'll see the Arati.
20:42
>> Yeah. And
20:43
>> it's almost like we're running out of
20:44
time for a lot of the pieces on the
20:47
board to address them. We're running out
20:49
of patches to really spend the proper
20:52
time. Like we haven't even mentioned the
20:54
Naga. Where are the Naga in all this? I
20:56
think another option is that after this,
20:58
everything we've seen from the Naga and
21:01
from Azara is actually just leading up
21:04
to what's after the World Soul Saga is
21:06
like the Naga problem
21:09
or two.
21:10
>> Joe and I were talking about it before
21:12
and I remember we we discussed the idea
21:15
that if anybody knows how to screw up
21:17
what Zalat is trying to do,
21:19
>> oh, it's it's Azure 100%. I I think part
21:23
of the other thing too is I I think we
21:25
need to reframe some of our thought
21:26
here, at least as we're moving along. We
21:29
keep thinking about in terms of just
21:31
limiting it to this expansion, but if
21:33
anything has taught us anything about
21:36
the way that the new structure of this
21:37
trilogy is, moving from the war within
21:40
to this, we to Midnight, there was no we
21:46
left one thread behind to move into
21:48
another. We're still going through the
21:50
same story, the same the same arcs as
21:53
The War Within. Everything that started
21:55
back
21:55
>> changed focus, right?
21:56
>> It just moved to a new local.
21:58
>> We're in the middle of a long
22:00
overarching story um that we're just
22:03
barely at the crescendo part of it,
22:05
right? Like we ended the last patch at
22:10
like sort of like this peak moment where
22:13
we win but also don't win. And now like
22:17
the the whole idea that we're going to
22:19
be fighting Zealot in the last patch,
22:21
there's nothing that guarantees that's
22:23
going to be the case.
22:24
>> Oh yeah. I don't think I think it's very
22:26
interesting to think about if you look
22:28
at the stuff we're seeing. A lot of the
22:30
stuff we're seeing is about the rift of
22:32
own
22:32
>> Y
22:33
>> and what the Ammani did with it. Y
22:35
>> and how that plays in. You know, I you
22:37
know, there is a lot of places we could
22:39
go
22:40
>> before we're at the end of this. And we
22:42
don't even know that this trilogy is
22:43
going to
22:44
>> Well, I think
22:45
>> we know this trilogy will change. It
22:47
will change things and end something. We
22:49
don't know what it's going to end.
22:51
>> Well, and and the thing is like we
22:53
again, we have no idea, right? You're
22:54
right there. Um nothing says that we
22:58
have to fight Zalot in the third act of
23:01
this expansion because I'm looking at it
23:03
more of we're currently in the fifth act
23:06
of a large like nine act play
23:09
essentially, right? like we're where we
23:11
got so much more ahead of us. And to
23:13
Eric's point, all these loose ends, I
23:16
think that becomes the focus, right? Or
23:19
potentially, and I think that's and to
23:20
to bring it back to another part of the
23:23
the question here. I think that's what
23:25
that panel is going to start talking
23:27
about is the way that the story and the
23:29
game is going to move forward. And I
23:32
think there's a lot there that will deal
23:35
with potentially tying up loose ends,
23:37
gathering support, gaining support,
23:40
calling on the allies because again,
23:43
technically
23:45
our our our bug friends underground are
23:47
friends now, right? They're they're
23:49
technically allies. We helped them
23:52
overthrow the influence of Zalat and the
23:55
old god. We helped them break from sort
23:58
of that compulsion, right? We brought
24:00
them peace. we brought them, you know,
24:03
back to a a civilization standpoint. Do
24:06
you think they don't have a pony in that
24:07
race against Zalot? Do you think they
24:09
don't have uh a grievance to pick with
24:11
her? We have all the Earth and
24:14
everything that happened with them. She
24:15
messed with all of them as well, right?
24:18
We have the entirety of Azeroth.
24:20
>> Did she bring the Scaven curse back?
24:22
>> She did.
24:24
>> Yeah. Which is something that they've
24:25
been afraid of for a long time.
24:27
>> Yeah. Then we also have all of we have
24:29
all of Caresh and and Venari who, you
24:34
know, they she definitely boned them
24:37
pretty hard, right? Like she she made
24:40
them suffer and made false promises and
24:43
then enslaved a good portion of them,
24:46
but not all of them. And we still have
24:49
plenty of etherealss and brokers which
24:52
we now know are the same race. The same
24:55
species just went different directions
24:58
and where they were headed for their
24:59
solution of survival. And they have a
25:03
bone to pick with her as well. She tried
25:05
to essentially devour their like have
25:08
their home world not necessarily be
25:10
devoured but blow it up anyway, right?
25:14
blow it up to kill Dementius or to like
25:16
and I'm going to air quote kill
25:17
Dementius here because I'm pretty sure
25:19
it was just weaken him enough that she
25:20
could take take his power. But she tried
25:23
to blow up a world soul to do that,
25:25
right? And like we have we have common
25:28
ground there. The Arathia are probably
25:30
not going to be very like they're not
25:32
going to like her very much. We have the
25:34
entire rest of Azeroth that definitely
25:35
does not like her. And on top of that,
25:39
it's everything she's doing is going to
25:41
feed into the Titans. Cuz you'd think
25:43
that the minute that the Titans hear or
25:45
catch wind of the fact that she's trying
25:48
to tamper with the world soul in any
25:50
capacity that they're not going to try
25:53
to intervene. Like they're not trapped.
25:57
They're jailers. Now, there is a big
26:01
difference between them being in prison
26:03
and and off the off the the the table
26:06
and off the the playing board versus
26:08
them choosing to
26:11
re-educate, and I'm going to use that
26:13
word because I don't know the depths of
26:14
what they're doing to Sargeras to
26:16
Sargeras.
26:18
They can leave. They can have influence
26:20
outside of it. And I guarantee you
26:22
Sargeras is in a weakened state enough
26:24
that he probably does not need all of
26:26
them there to sort of keep him in check.
26:31
We also know that Odin is running around
26:34
and if he gets a a a cell phone call
26:37
from Daddy Aanthool, you think he's not
26:39
going to answer?
26:41
You think he's not going to give him the
26:42
lowdown on what's going on? And we know
26:44
for a fact that Odin, like he's
26:47
everywhere. He's not trapped anymore. He
26:49
has not been trapped since even before
26:52
we got there really.
26:54
And
26:54
>> but he used to actually have to at least
26:57
pose as a mortal being
26:59
>> because the only way he could get out
27:02
anymore.
27:02
>> Well, it's thing he doesn't have to do
27:04
that anymore because of what we did to
27:06
Helia.
27:07
>> True. But he still could if he wanted to
27:09
in order to get espionage style
27:11
information, right? He's a shape
27:13
shifter. He is the only watcher we know
27:15
of that has proven that he can be a
27:17
shape shifter. But not only is he a
27:19
shape shifter, he's not limited to it
27:21
anymore.
27:22
>> No.
27:22
>> So he could go around doing all the
27:24
spying he wants. Effectively, his eye,
27:27
it hasn't been returned to him, but it's
27:29
not being used by anybody anymore.
27:32
>> He could reclaim that thing.
27:34
>> I probably would.
27:36
>> Which character from the last couple
27:37
expansions has actually been Odin this
27:39
whole time?
27:40
>> Yeah. Like, who knows?
27:41
>> We we we've got we've got some stuff in
27:43
there, too. Like I wouldn't be surprised
27:45
if some of the overzealous paladins that
27:49
have been calling for murder of anything
27:51
void touched couldn't be his influence
27:53
cuz that definitely seems like something
27:55
Odin would be all about. Right.
27:57
>> Trust me, as a guy who spent a lot of
27:58
time in his Pokeball, uh Odin would
28:01
think nothing of just wiping out whole
28:03
areas if it would keep the void in
28:05
check.
28:07
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I don't know. There's a
28:10
lot there's a lot there that it could
28:13
be, but I would not
28:15
>> I mean, again,
28:16
>> I wanted to go into this because because
28:17
of what you were saying earlier. One of
28:19
the things I'm thinking about is that at
28:21
the end of Warcraft 3,
28:24
you could say everything was tied up,
28:26
but obviously everything in World of
28:29
Warcraft happened, you know, four years
28:31
after that. And tons of stuff wasn't at
28:35
all wrapped up and will never be like
28:39
there's stuff that doesn't get wrapped
28:41
up. It doesn't get a bow put on it and
28:44
you're told, "Oh, here's the nice
28:46
narrative conclusion." because that
28:47
doesn't happen to the world. Things
28:49
happen, things change. I think we're
28:52
looking at change, not an ending.
28:56
>> Yes.
28:56
>> I think at the end of this of the of the
28:59
World Soul Saga, we will not go, "Oh,
29:01
well, that's done." It'll instead be,
29:03
"Wow, that's everything's completely
29:05
different now." And that's probably a
29:08
much better place for the game to be.
29:11
And that's something as you're talking
29:13
like as you were talking about all this
29:14
stuff, I'm like, how are we like what
29:16
what makes us think that there's going
29:18
to be anything like a bow put on
29:20
anything at the end of this? Maybe Zalat
29:23
will be gone. Maybe not. We we and even
29:27
if she is gone, all the stuff we're
29:29
learning now will probably come out. We
29:32
now know that there's stuff in the rift
29:34
of alm that doesn't actually exist but
29:37
can be pulled out and used as weapons
29:40
except that's a terrible idea and the
29:42
weapon will break free and and go nuts
29:45
and we've seen what the cause that's
29:47
just one thing we've seen. There's a ton
29:49
of things here that we may we're looking
29:52
at the beginning of them not the end of
29:54
them.
29:56
I think talking we're talking in terms
29:58
of specifics, but now we're talking in
30:00
terms of general and yes, I agree that
30:03
the World Soul Saga was never advertised
30:05
as being a the end moment. Maybe it's
30:08
been advertised more as like a
30:10
satisfying
30:12
capstone along the path because it's a
30:14
big milestone and the first 20 years of
30:18
World of Warcraft kind of hits a
30:20
crescendo and we get a bunch of answers
30:22
but nowhere near all of them and all the
30:25
other threads that kind of flow around
30:27
the side of that capstone flow into the
30:29
next part of the story.
30:32
>> So in the words of Hermes Conrad that
30:33
just raises further questions.
30:36
So, I think that yes, in general terms,
30:39
I am looking for a wow, that was a
30:43
satisfying big long story arc that felt
30:46
appropriate for like celebrating this
30:49
long. But I'm glad that it wasn't the
30:52
end and then World of Warcraft 2 comes
30:54
out and is either totally different or
30:58
things start over or things that we had
31:01
never heard about start happening where
31:03
it's like, "Oh, hey, now that you've
31:06
finished part one, the second quest is
31:09
there's a whole continent over there
31:10
that you've never heard of and doesn't
31:12
connect to anything and those people
31:14
over there have no idea what the events
31:16
have been going on for the last couple
31:18
10,000 and go explore. I think I think
31:21
it's whatever we're doing is going to
31:23
tie in intricately with what we're doing
31:25
now. But what what's next is just
31:29
something that is not part of the World
31:30
Soul saga. I I I can't imagine that the
31:33
expansion after The Last Titan is going
31:35
to be World Soul heavy. It will be a
31:38
pivot to something else besides trying
31:41
to figure out what world souls are. All
31:43
right. And hopefully we'll get some
31:44
answers, but yeah, have getting all the
31:47
answers would be kind of unsatisfying at
31:48
this point because we want the game to
31:50
keep going.
31:51
>> Yeah. And I think I think really the
31:52
lesson or the takeaway that I've I've
31:54
gotten after this expansion is that and
31:57
even before this even before the series
31:59
of expansions, we've we've talked about
32:01
how
32:03
there's been loose ends and story
32:05
breadcrumbs that they've they've kind of
32:07
sprinkled throughout the existence of
32:08
the game. And we knew that when, you
32:11
know, Steve Denowser was there with his
32:13
story team, they were looking at longer
32:15
term storytelling and making longer,
32:18
better payoffs instead of just letting
32:21
things die, right? Like Missing Nobles
32:24
that we never finished the quest for or
32:26
uh crafting quests that have been
32:28
basically dead in the water since
32:30
Burning Crusade, right? They they looked
32:33
at it more holistically as a what can we
32:38
do to make a longer form story
32:42
and this is sort of that experiment made
32:44
manifest right it's a story that started
32:50
before the war within and continued
32:53
through the war within into midnight
32:55
through midnight into the last titan and
32:58
then from the last titan into whatever
33:01
the next steps are. And I think that's
33:04
where we're going to hear more from the
33:07
Blizzcon panels. Like a lot of people
33:10
talked about that it's too soon to talk
33:11
about the the next expansion and what
33:14
comes after. I don't think that's the
33:16
case. Uh if we look at their
33:17
>> It's never too soon to talk about the
33:19
next expansion. It just is maybe too
33:21
soon to tell you everything.
33:23
>> Yeah. And they and I think we're going
33:24
to get more about the philosophy of game
33:27
design and storytelling moving forward
33:29
into the next expansion and beyond than
33:31
we are anything else. And I've saw some
33:34
speculation that people were talking
33:36
about, oh, they're going to announce
33:37
World of Warcraft 2. They don't have to
33:39
do that. They never have to do that as
33:42
long as the story keeps going and the
33:45
engine keeps being updated until they
33:47
hit some technical limit or whatever
33:49
that is in such technical debt that they
33:51
have to completely redo everything. And
33:54
even then, they probably won't. It'll be
33:56
another another EverQuest situation
33:58
potentially, right? Where
34:00
>> EverQuest one is still more popular than
34:02
EverQuest 2. Go ahead.
34:03
>> Yeah. If they do that, they need to do
34:05
like a Guild Wars 3 where we're going
34:07
back in time and playing a prequel.
34:09
Yeah, cuz I mean that'd be kind of cool.
34:11
Like,
34:12
>> can I give you my tinfoil hat on it?
34:14
>> Yes, please.
34:15
>> I mean, Stormage asked specifically that
34:17
we have tinfoil hat time. I think that
34:19
the announcement is going to be that
34:22
retail World of Warcraft has been a
34:24
dream all the way back to classic, all
34:28
the way back to vanilla. World of
34:30
Warcraft was Azeroth's the World Souls
34:33
dream. And it's going to keep going
34:35
because it doesn't seem it it's it's
34:37
it's too far all along the path. We've
34:41
got player housing. We've got all this.
34:43
It's going to keep going, but Classic
34:45
Plus is going to be a reset and in a
34:47
different direction. It's not going to
34:49
be anything other than, oh, actually,
34:52
here's what happened. And it's going to
34:53
go somewhere else with what happens
34:56
after the original events of World of
34:58
Warcraft.
35:00
I support you in your tinfoil heading,
35:02
but I swear to God if they go on stage
35:03
and say that it's all been a dream, I'm
35:05
throwing a table. [laughter]
35:07
>> Well, no. What they're going to do is
35:09
they're going to have like, you know,
35:10
your character wakes up and goes into
35:12
the bathroom and Sargeras is taking a
35:14
shower. [laughter]
35:15
So,
35:17
no, I I'm sorry. That was an old
35:19
reference and nobody should laugh except
35:20
us old people. But I mean, I ultimately
35:24
whatever they're going to do,
35:27
there's there's always going to be some
35:30
level of but you didn't do this because
35:33
there's 20 plus years of just this game
35:38
and then another decade or so of all the
35:42
previous Warcrafts,
35:44
you're always going to be stuff that
35:46
they they don't cover
35:48
and don't get to and we're always like
35:51
So sometimes when you're looking at it
35:52
going, "Oh, but they have to cover this
35:54
because they only have so much time
35:55
left." They might just not,
35:58
they have proven that they will
36:00
ultimately make that decision to not if
36:03
they feel like it's not going to work
36:05
for the story they're trying to tell.
36:07
>> You also have to introduce other new
36:09
places that you haven't seen yet more
36:11
than one at a time, or else it's really
36:13
obvious where we're going to go next.
36:16
You know, if all we've heard about is
36:18
that Zelat is going down into the world
36:21
soul and it's like, okay, the we're
36:23
going to chase her and that's where
36:24
we're going next because we haven't
36:26
heard of, you know, the undersea and the
36:30
Arai continent and just a a dozen other
36:34
places that it could be that we have to
36:35
go first before we go down into the
36:38
manifold. So, having those places out
36:41
there doesn't mean they have to be next.
36:43
It could mean that five expansions from
36:45
now we hear rumors of the undersea
36:50
underfall, you know, changing or
36:52
something coming out of it or the Kobus
36:54
getting restless again and we've got to
36:56
go investigate that. Doesn't mean it
36:57
needs to be next.
37:01
Fair enough. Anything else to add before
37:03
we move on to the next question?
37:06
Grapes.
37:09
>> All right. Well, this one comes from
37:10
Visio. Uh, so I have this theory that we
37:13
never dealt with the disorder side of
37:15
the cosmology. Sargeras is a fallen
37:18
corrupted titan, so mostly an order
37:20
being as far as we know. Many of the
37:22
members of the legion are corrupted
37:24
mortal races and even the most powerful
37:26
leaders of the legion were corrupted
37:28
Aerodar. And I think that Sargeras tried
37:31
to order the demons with the Legion and
37:33
that in some way this made them weaker.
37:35
I would like to hear your guys' opinion
37:37
on this. I see that Blizzard is seing
37:39
some sort of return for Demons and
37:41
Legion, but I don't think that we will
37:43
see what a Titan void god of disorder
37:46
side looks like
37:49
and if this even exists in Warcraft
37:52
lore.
37:54
I mean, the problem is Titans are
37:58
still, as much as they've been defined,
38:01
undefined. So, they can be whatever they
38:03
want, right? We know that they have
38:05
different aspects. We've speculated
38:06
about it. I've I've talked about, you
38:09
know, them being maybe closer to various
38:12
parts of the cosmology which informs
38:13
their affinity for things such as nature
38:15
or time, order or or whatever the case
38:18
is. Uh but they could make a Titan of
38:22
Disorder if they really really wanted
38:24
to. But the thing is disorder by its
38:28
whole thing in the cosmology isn't
38:29
necessarily actually disorder. It's a
38:34
concept. It is a destruction or destabil
38:37
destabilization of the other things.
38:40
Because if we really want to get into
38:42
it, the opposite of order isn't
38:44
disorder. It's chaos.
38:48
And life is chaos. Which is why a lot of
38:52
times you'll see Aman Thu really doesn't
38:54
like things that are natural or sort of
38:56
just evolve or change or roll or you
39:00
know are are not perfectly ordered and
39:02
regimented and go exactly the way he
39:04
wants something that he can predict.
39:07
Right? We've seen that a bunch of times
39:09
in the past why he doesn't like Aloon
39:12
why he doesn't approve of the
39:13
relationship between ANR and Aloon. why
39:15
Anrar's actions are definitely something
39:17
he frowned upon because unless it's
39:19
something he specifically asked or made
39:21
them do, it didn't sort of fit his
39:23
worldview plan or his universe view
39:26
plan, if you will. And I think
39:28
unfettered life is more the enemy of
39:33
order than disorder is. So disorder is
39:36
more at least in my in my estimation not
39:39
necessarily a place or an actual true
39:41
spot on the cosmology chart and more of
39:44
a concept. And I think that if you go
39:46
back to the grimoire and we have to take
39:51
that into consideration as well, not the
39:53
cosmology that's present there, but the
39:56
core concept that was presented there
39:58
about the cosmology and that the
40:00
cosmology chart we get in Chronicle 1 is
40:04
a good approximation for somebody who
40:06
doesn't understand the true breath of
40:08
the universe and in reality and doesn't
40:11
understand all of reality, right? It's
40:15
correct from a certain point of view,
40:17
but fundamentally flawed. And there is
40:21
no real true way to really know for a
40:25
fact that you have the objective true
40:28
chart or cosmology for the universe.
40:32
Because no matter what, it's going to be
40:34
filtered through the perception of
40:35
whoever wrote it down, translated it,
40:38
presented it to you, and then in turn
40:40
your own understanding of everything
40:41
around you. Let's go back to Algolon. We
40:45
just did uh you know Aldoir time
40:48
walking, right? Algolon
40:51
didn't understand us. We were not a
40:56
thing that was ever accounted for or
40:58
seen or or viewed. And according to his
41:03
worldview and what has been presented to
41:05
him or things that he understood from
41:07
his species origin in the universe, we
41:10
shouldn't exist. we should not have
41:13
happened and the things we do should not
41:16
be possible yet here we are. So again I
41:21
don't think disorder truly exists as a
41:24
place. I think it is a somebody
41:28
essentially wrote it down on the
41:30
cosmology chart which is a core concept
41:32
kind of like the same way that sailors
41:35
used to draw kraken and dragon in the
41:37
margins of maps if that makes sense.
41:43
I want to point out something that's not
41:45
anything you just said because
41:46
everything you said is perfectly good
41:47
and I don't need to re reite state it. I
41:51
want to point out something else.
41:54
There's an often quoted line from James
41:57
Gleak.
41:59
He wrote the book Chaos Making a New
42:01
Science. And he made the point that
42:03
things that look disordered or chaotic
42:07
often follow a rigid hidden underlying
42:12
structure and a profound internal order.
42:15
And there's the old phrase perfect chaos
42:17
is perfect order. And what that means is
42:21
that for one example, entropy
42:24
where eventually energy runs out and the
42:27
universe goes into heat death is a
42:29
profoundly orderly process
42:32
and yet it is also profoundly chaotic
42:35
because you cannot predict anything past
42:38
it. If entropy
42:41
continues to to a point of where the
42:43
heat death happens, that's the end of
42:46
our ability to understand the universe,
42:49
there's nothing beyond it that we can
42:51
safely predict. And the only other time
42:54
you see that in cosmology is the big
42:57
bang, which where it's reversed. You
43:00
can't look back before the big bang. You
43:03
can't even tell what the order, what the
43:05
principles of reality were before the
43:08
big bang. It's just not it's there's no
43:11
way to know what they were because
43:13
there's no way to predict the creation
43:16
of a universe like ours from a moment of
43:20
just boom and suddenly there's an
43:22
existence and then existence is
43:24
spreading out in every direction. And
43:26
obviously at some point everything will
43:28
be so far away from everything else that
43:31
it doesn't affect it. And that's when
43:35
you get unpredictability
43:37
right in the most orderly system
43:39
imaginable.
43:42
I understand that this is a video game
43:43
and not a physics lecture. But my point
43:46
is just that the very concept of order
43:48
and chaos, the two things are interlin.
43:52
You cannot have one without the other
43:55
and they are the same thing just in
43:58
different directions.
44:00
That's one of the things about Arcane
44:02
and Fell in WoW that kind of mirrors
44:04
this. Arcane and Fell basically the same
44:07
stuff just in different directions.
44:10
Arcane is orderly to our perception. It
44:14
has rules that you can predict. But just
44:16
as clearly, Sargeras
44:19
could predict fell. He could predict the
44:23
supposed ultimate chaos. There are
44:25
spells that can summon fell things
44:28
together. There's power you can use to
44:31
bind fel.
44:33
Fel has rules. It's just not the same
44:36
rules. Except is it? Is it just a
44:39
different mathematical level? That's the
44:42
thing about all this. If you're talking
44:44
about order and chaos, you are
44:46
effectively talking about the same thing
44:47
in different directions.
44:50
And that's just as true for World of
44:51
Warcraft as it is for a physics lecture.
44:53
That's just as true as the way we've
44:55
seen it in game. We have seen people
44:57
like Guldon just jam fell and void
45:00
together in something
45:03
and and that thing it still continues to
45:05
exist.
45:08
There's there's an over there's an
45:11
overlying structure all these different
45:13
forces that we see clearly underneath it
45:16
is something the first ones understood
45:17
where all these different forces are
45:19
part of one thing.
45:23
They are all components to it. And that
45:25
means that you need both chaos and order
45:28
in your universe to make it work. And
45:30
that's why the Titans can't actually
45:32
understand things
45:34
because they don't think that way. And
45:37
oddly enough, we might actually need
45:38
Sargeras just for that, for his ability
45:41
to actually understand another thing
45:44
outside of what all the other Titans
45:46
understand. He whether or not he's
45:49
saying he grasps that fell isn't
45:53
enimical to existence. It's required.
45:58
I think that that means we don't need
46:00
yet another Titan to come along and do
46:02
this. We've got a Titan doing it. And at
46:05
this point, we might have more than one
46:06
Titan doing it because they've all been
46:09
exposed to this now. Agramar, Amthul,
46:13
Eloon, not Aloon, sorry, Enr.
46:16
They've all been exposed to it. They've
46:18
all seen it happen. They've all, you
46:20
know, they know that things are not the
46:23
way they thought they were.
46:26
So, I don't think we need to create a
46:28
new one. We don't need to see a new one
46:29
come along. I think we've seen it the
46:31
whole time. What we need is for somebody
46:33
to understand it, somebody one of them
46:36
to come forth and just say, you know, we
46:38
we were going from this perspective and
46:41
this perspective is wrong. I don't think
46:43
Amatul is that guy. Amul is never going
46:46
to be that guy. Amal refuses to be that
46:48
guy. But I think Sargeras could be that
46:51
guy. You just have to get him to stop
46:54
trying to murder everything and restart.
46:56
He has to stop thinking of it as a flaw.
46:59
>> Put the sword down. I'm not going to
47:02
tell you again.
47:03
>> Yeah. Or use the sword differently. Stop
47:05
turning the sword on the things of the
47:08
universe you want to preserve.
47:10
understand
47:11
the real thing that you have to fight.
47:14
You know, say what you want about Zval
47:16
the jailer, he wasn't right either, but
47:19
at least he saw the thing that's
47:21
actually the threat.
47:24
You know, you don't look at the fell and
47:26
think it's a nightmare. Don't look at
47:27
the void and think it's a nightmare. Are
47:29
they things we don't want to have
47:30
around? Sure, so is death. Nobody wants
47:34
to die, but dying is a part of the
47:36
cosmos. It is necessary for existence to
47:40
keep existing.
47:42
>> You can't have any of these.
47:44
>> Yeah. You can't have the things you
47:46
like. Yeah.
47:46
>> You can't have any of the cosmic forces
47:48
without the their opposites. You can't
47:49
have order if there's no such thing as
47:51
chaos. You can't have life if there's no
47:53
such thing as death. Yeah.
47:55
>> And also, none of them are opposed only
47:58
to one other force. All forces exist in
48:01
opposition to all other forces.
48:03
There's tension between all of them. By
48:06
looking at as the duality where it's
48:08
just fell versus, you know, order,
48:10
arcane, like life versus death, light
48:13
versus, you know, shadow, you are
48:15
missing there's a tension between
48:17
everything. It's like a you can't build
48:19
a suspension bridge if you don't account
48:22
for the forces attempting to rip it in
48:25
half. But you can't just oppose those
48:28
forces. You have to incorporate them.
48:31
Like look at the Verzano Narrows or the
48:33
the bridge in Tacoma. the Tacoma Arrows.
48:36
Look at what happened to it when it it
48:39
failed to understand that its own
48:41
construction created a flaw that would
48:44
tear it apart because it couldn't deal
48:47
with the stresses it itself created.
48:51
There's a resonant frequency that would
48:54
destroy it as soon as it got swinging in
48:56
a certain way and it wasn't built to
48:59
stabilize by using the force against it.
49:03
In perfect opposition requires perfect
49:05
understanding just like perfect quarter
49:07
is perfect chaos. You have to use
49:10
everything and the universe has been
49:13
built on that. But we the beings that
49:16
consider themselves the the guardians of
49:18
that universe don't recognize it. Odin's
49:22
biggest flaw is he's never gonna
49:24
understand
49:26
that, you know, he can't just pull
49:28
people out of death because he's peeved.
49:32
You know, you can't just make these
49:33
things and rip them out of the
49:35
underworld. There was a price. You paid
49:37
it. And by paying it, you made things so
49:39
much worse.
49:41
You made everything worse. The
49:42
Shadowlands nearly devoured the world.
49:44
Zal nearly converted Azeroth into a
49:48
weapon against existence.
49:51
because you wouldn't stop.
49:54
You wouldn't actually take all these
49:56
other forces into account. That's I feel
49:58
like that's like a big part of what
50:00
we're looking at. This this idea of
50:02
these everything is in opposition to
50:04
everything else. And that doesn't mean
50:06
that they have to be antagonistic. It
50:09
means that each has to keep tension in
50:12
order for the universe to exist as we
50:15
understand it. Azeroth is an example of
50:17
that in action.
50:20
Oh, for sure. It's a balance thing. Go
50:23
ahead.
50:23
>> Yeah, exactly.
50:25
>> Building on what both of you said, which
50:27
I agree with, I'd like to point out uh
50:31
make a point of order about when Vichio
50:34
asks about a titan/void god of the
50:37
disorder side that according to one, you
50:40
know, piece of information that we have,
50:42
the Grimmoire, the Shadowlands, the
50:43
first ones created a pantheon for each
50:45
power involved in their pattern. And so
50:48
far we have knowledge of three of those
50:50
pantheons. The Titans are the pantheon
50:53
of order. The eternal ones are the
50:55
pantheon of death. And the void lords
50:58
seem to be their equivalent in void. And
51:01
so we have those three that are each on
51:05
one side. We don't have anyone's
51:07
opposite. We don't have a pantheon of
51:10
disorder. We don't have one of life. We
51:13
don't have one of light. Does that mean
51:15
they don't exist? Does that mean we
51:16
haven't encountered them yet? Does that
51:18
mean we have encountered them and we
51:19
just didn't recognize them? Um,
51:22
>> I know my my my opinion on Aloon, but we
51:24
don't need to have it right now.
51:27
>> If not now, when?
51:29
>> After the next BlizzCon that we're going
51:31
to have in a week that you're going to.
51:34
>> So, so my point is, is there a Pantheon
51:38
of Light or was that, you know, a
51:42
misunderstanding, misinformation?
51:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. the the idea of pantheons
51:46
and we've talked about this before like
51:47
we throw it around a lot but like
51:49
they're not naturally occurring. At
51:51
least it doesn't seem like that, right?
51:53
They're both of them have been that
51:55
we've encountered have been created.
51:57
Yeah. Like the titans were created under
52:01
Aanthul. He created the pantheon.
52:04
Otherwise, they would have just been
52:05
beings that existed in reality. The
52:09
pantheon of death were created by the
52:11
first ones. you know, they wouldn't
52:13
exist otherwise. They're literally
52:15
robots with mantels of power placed upon
52:17
them. So, is is that does that mean that
52:21
there are pantheons in other locations?
52:24
Do they exist or is that just us with
52:27
our limited understanding again trying
52:29
to cram that in? Does that make sense?
52:33
Yes, I do like the idea of a symmetrical
52:37
and pleasing
52:40
cosmos where of course each of the six
52:42
has to have their own things and of
52:43
course each has to have a zerith and
52:45
each has to have a realm, but in in the
52:48
real universe it's probably not that
52:51
simple. But if it were, I like the idea
52:54
of each of the pantheons kind of
52:56
mirroring what the cosmic force it
53:00
represents is like the void lords seem
53:04
like they've sort of consumed each other
53:06
slash kind of built up to one big thing
53:09
with Dimensions being the last one left
53:11
and we don't know what the story was
53:13
there. I like the idea of the Pantheon
53:15
of Order being a city council. It's
53:18
like, you know, 11 or nine or however
53:21
many titans there are and they have, you
53:24
know, a a person who's mostly in charge
53:26
and they get together and make decisions
53:28
and then you get a rogue one and he gets
53:30
banished. So I I like the idea of
53:35
all of them kind of mirroring what they
53:38
are. And so for the Pantheon of
53:39
Disorder, that would be you can't have a
53:41
pantheon. You can't have anyone in
53:43
charge. You can't have a small number of
53:45
people in charge. the Pantheon of
53:46
Disorder would just be demons. Like, you
53:49
know, you go to the you go to city hall
53:52
and you open up the order part and it's
53:55
all the titans sitting around a round
53:56
table and discussing order and then you
53:58
open up the disorder and it's just a
54:00
million demons pour out and they fly and
54:02
run in every direction. So, if if that
54:07
were to be kind of the case, then
54:09
disorder can't have any organization in
54:11
its ranks because it's disorder. So you
54:15
can't have a very powerful being of
54:18
disorder because that would require it
54:20
to I don't know be in charge of the rest
54:23
of it or or like like disorder from its
54:27
very nature is just chaos and things
54:28
everywhere. So I [snorts] think that
54:31
maybe there just isn't one.
54:37
>> Yeah. And I don't know, like again, I
54:40
keep coming back with this this idea and
54:42
I agree. Like I don't know that disorder
54:46
exists in the way that everybody really
54:49
seems to think it does. I think it's
54:52
more like what you're saying and what we
54:54
talked about where
54:56
it's just sort of the absence of order.
55:00
It's just a thing. It's just a force.
55:03
But I [sighs] yeah I I think we also
55:08
maybe and this is part of the larger
55:09
discussion. We really don't know
55:13
half of these other things and what they
55:15
cuz we haven't been there. We've kind of
55:19
been to the realm of life a little bit
55:22
if we really want to talk about like the
55:23
Emerald Dream cuz it's kind of adjacent
55:26
to it but it's really not. It's like
55:28
this little pocket dimension uh that's
55:30
kind of like touching that our reality
55:32
and the Shadowlands. Um, we've been to
55:35
the Shadowlands, which is
55:39
up until this point, we've only ever
55:41
seen it in
55:44
essentially the Death Knight starting
55:46
area. And even that was a very small
55:47
portion of it. And then our
55:49
understanding of even what the
55:50
Shadowlands are is so very limited even
55:54
now that we've, and I'm going to heavily
55:56
air quote here, figured it out because
55:59
we really didn't, right? We really don't
56:02
know what's going on with it or what it
56:04
really encompasses or how far it
56:06
reaches.
56:08
And we don't really know anything about
56:10
these other locations either. Like we we
56:14
think that there's a zerith everywhere
56:16
or at least one each location. But
56:18
that's an assumption, right? We have no
56:20
proof. We have not gone to the realm of
56:23
order. We might not be able to. We
56:25
haven't gone to the realm of light.
56:26
Again, we might not be able to. And
56:29
arguably we don't know if anybody can.
56:31
There's the whole thing with the the
56:33
soldier in Northrren that was raised up
56:35
and essentially became with the light
56:37
behest of you know essentially Naru but
56:40
we don't know what that actually
56:41
entailed or where he actually went. And
56:43
it's not like we can phone a friend and
56:45
ask him you know how are things and
56:47
where you are you know are you
56:48
surrounded by light or you know what's
56:49
going on there. So, we live in a world
56:53
with just so many unknowns.
56:56
And that's also part of the joy of this
57:00
is because it has, as the void would
57:03
love to tell us, infinite possibilities
57:06
and infinite potential. And the story
57:10
could be it could go any direction
57:14
at this point really. And it could
57:18
really be anything to mold to fit what
57:21
they need it to be, which is kind of
57:22
cool. But everything until something
57:26
concrete happens is just pure
57:28
speculation.
57:29
And again, even then, that was that was
57:32
literally the the thing that they told
57:35
us in
57:37
the grimoire is that everything we do is
57:41
an interpretation. Everything we do is
57:44
speculation.
57:45
nothing we do is actually certain or
57:49
true potentially, but at the same time,
57:51
it's also true. It's it's weird place to
57:56
be in for a lot of folks.
57:59
Some of this stuff will likely come to I
58:03
don't want to say definement, but will
58:05
become a little clearer
58:08
in the next expansion
58:11
in so much that we are likely to learn
58:14
more about the Titans and their origin
58:17
truly, which I think will then give us
58:21
like a way to sort of speculate further
58:25
on the nature of the rest of the cosmos
58:27
based off of that were they an accident?
58:31
Were they planned? Was this something
58:33
that was always meant to happen? Are
58:35
they failed experiments?
58:38
Are they what came before Azeroth and
58:41
weren't actually the desired outcome?
58:45
We're going to find out a lot of that
58:46
stuff probably relatively soon.
58:50
But I think that's it. Unless you guys
58:52
have anything else you want to add.
58:57
I mean, I could keep going forever, but
58:59
at some point, we do have to stop.
59:02
>> All right. Well, then, friends, I do
59:04
want to thank you for joining us and
59:05
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