Up next in 10
This week we take a deep dive — pun obviously intended — into the lore and psychology of Azshara, the ruler of the Naga on Azeroth. But first, we have a lighthearted question from a listener, asking for the lore justification against being able to Skyride on the sad little ghost gryphon when you're dead. I agree. This feels extra bad. Clearly there must be a lore reason why we can't.
Then we turn to the bulk of the podcast, which is about Azshara and her power. How she gained such influence in the Zin Azshari empire prior to the War of the Ancients, all the way to how she ended up in the mess N'Zoth saved her from. Azshara's history is long and complex, and includes an analysis of her as a character -- what could make someone so sure they're always right? Well, when you're told you're going to be someone special by people who count from the second you're born, things kinda turn out that way sometimes. And then, we veer off into tinfoil hat territory, talking about the future and what those golden eyes might mean.
Why do all her followers still follow her, anyway?
Subscribe to Lore Watch in your podcast player for more video game lore:
* RSS: https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/6556539150cd070012089193
* Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lore-watch-podcast/id1023224738
* Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1CIJRbwbEVQfCg8r94HCwO
Visit us at https://blizzardwatch.com for the latest news on Blizzard games, and don't forget to subscribe on Patreon to support our efforts! https://www.patreon.com/blizzardwatch
Discord: https://discord.gg/MY9p4d7t8U
Bluesky: @blizzardwatch.com
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:04
[music]
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch round
0:12
table free form discussion about lore in
0:13
your favorite media. I'm your host Joe
0:16
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:18
from Blizzard watch and I've got two
0:20
marvelous co-hosts with me today. First,
0:22
you know him, you'll love him, he loves
0:24
Godzilla. It's Matt Rossy. How you
0:26
doing, Matt? I mean, I love Godzilla. I
0:29
I don't know how much better life can
0:32
get. Honestly, I was just very happy to
0:36
hear you mention him cuz, you know, he
0:38
wants the best for all of us.
0:40
>> I agree. I for one welcome our Kaiju
0:43
Overlord. Uh, and then joining us as
0:45
always on this grand adventure, uh, the
0:48
most recent addition to our crew, Eric
0:49
ODay. How you doing, Eric?
0:51
>> I'm doing pretty good. Uh, it's hard to
0:52
beat Godzilla because he is a gigantic
0:56
uh all powerful monster. So, um, I I
1:00
just I'm I'm lucky he's around two. I'm
1:02
happy.
1:02
>> I mean, canotonically, you don't
1:04
actually beat Godzilla. Godzilla just
1:06
kind of gets bored and goes away.
1:08
>> I mean, Godzilla can lose an individual
1:10
fight, but by the end of the movie, he
1:12
will be victorious or if he is
1:15
destroyed, he immediately starts to
1:17
regenerate. Like, that's the Toho rules.
1:19
They've got a whole bunch of them. Maybe
1:21
we can get him addicted to Tik Tok and
1:23
then he'll just lose interest in
1:25
>> No, no, he he'll just adopt it. I
1:27
honestly believe this. Seriously, I
1:28
believe Godzilla is ADHD because here's
1:32
the thing. Godzilla got so into
1:34
basketball that he could compete against
1:36
Charles Barkley. You know what I mean?
1:37
And it's not like Godzilla's built for
1:40
basketball. Godzilla's really wide on
1:42
the bottom, man. That's that's not a I
1:45
mean, that's good for like throwing and
1:46
stuff. It's a good core, but he's not a
1:48
dunking machine. And yet he still
1:50
stepped to Barkley. And keep in mind,
1:51
Barkley was at the same size as
1:53
Godzilla. I don't know how that
1:54
happened.
1:55
>> This is a thing. This is a thing that
1:56
actually happened in the '90s, folks.
1:58
>> Yeah. My point is that Godzilla was
2:00
really into it and then stopped doing
2:02
it. And you could see that with like
2:04
Godzilla's love for Dr. Pepper. It came
2:06
and went super fast. He loved Dr. Pepper
2:09
and then boom. Just like with a lot of
2:11
other people, neurode divergent people
2:12
who just, you know, they fixate on
2:14
something for a while and then they're
2:15
just done with it.
2:16
>> And that's how crazy the 90s were. You
2:17
could live through the whole decade and
2:19
not even have realized that Charles
2:21
Barkley faced off against Godzilla.
2:22
>> Now, that's
2:23
>> successfully. He actually won.
2:25
>> If you would like us to do an entire
2:26
episode of the weird crossovers of
2:29
Godzilla, of which there are many, some
2:31
in which I particularly want to talk
2:33
about, um, let us know. Send us a
2:35
message. Uh, you can hit us up on
2:37
several of our different areas, which,
2:39
well, if you have a question or, you
2:41
know, want to know more about that, you
2:43
can send those in podcastwatch.com.
2:46
specify the show that it is for in the
2:47
subject line as well as any special
2:49
pronunciation of your name. You can also
2:50
hit us on the Q and Podcast questions
2:52
channel on Discord. Same rules apply.
2:55
And we do have the Patreon Q and podcast
2:57
question channel set aside for our
2:59
Patreon subscribers as a way of saying
3:01
thank you for helping us keep the lights
3:02
on where we tend to look there first.
3:05
But we're not here to talk about
3:06
Godzilla today sadly. Um I mean I guess
3:08
not sadly but sadly for now that it's
3:11
not talking about Godzilla. But we're
3:12
happy to answer your questions. And this
3:14
first one comes from Scribbly. What is
3:16
the a lorebased reason for your spirit
3:19
mount being unable to skyrock? How do
3:22
you guys feel about that? Do you guys
3:23
have a theory or a reason or I think
3:27
that it stems from like the actual
3:30
in-game reason? Because if you died in
3:33
the game and there was no punishment,
3:36
then why wouldn't you just die all the
3:38
time? If you could just push a button
3:39
and come back to life with full health
3:40
and you just keep pummeling the monster
3:42
that killed you, then what's the
3:44
challenge? What's the point? Where it's
3:46
it's a live game. There's no uh go back
3:49
to your last save point. So, you have to
3:52
have a kind of punishment. You have to
3:54
have a you know, you have to hoof it all
3:57
the way back across Ashenvail to get
3:58
back to your corpse and think about
4:00
dying and how you died the whole way
4:02
over. and then maybe next time you'll be
4:04
careful not to pull that extra mob. I
4:08
think that the canonical in-game reason
4:10
that the player character gets sent back
4:12
is that you you're having you're being
4:15
forced to think about what you did. You
4:18
know, we are instead of being whisked
4:20
away to the Shadowlands, it's not our
4:22
time and we have more to accomplish and
4:23
we get brought back by the Spirit
4:25
healers. But instead of just popping us
4:27
back in our corpses for free, you have
4:30
to go all the way back. Walking back,
4:35
running back a little bit faster than
4:36
you could otherwise is a way for the
4:40
spirit healers to impress on us the
4:42
importance of staying alive this time.
4:45
Like I've told you, I've told you
4:47
before. I've told you before. You are
4:50
too important to die. But I'm not going
4:52
to make it easy on you. Think about what
4:55
happened the whole way back. And then
4:58
when you get back in your body, be more
5:00
careful with it next time.
5:02
I can see that being, you know, if you
5:04
asked a spirit healer before you went
5:06
back to your corpse, hey, what are you
5:08
doing? And what's what's your
5:09
motivation? I can see that being the
5:10
reason.
5:10
>> Matt,
5:11
>> I primarily play night elves. I I'm just
5:14
constantly a wisp. I wasn't aware there
5:16
was a spirit mount. Like it's it's been
5:18
that long since I played anything that
5:20
would have a mount in in spirit form.
5:23
I'm just I'm just an elf. I'm a I'm a
5:26
spark. I haven't even played my torren
5:27
in like four expansions. Um so yeah, I I
5:30
didn't even realize this was a thing.
5:32
I'm like sitting there going, did I
5:34
remember running back as a human? I
5:36
didn't have a mount. When do we get
5:38
mounts? Do do we get mounts when we're
5:40
dead? I don't remember that. Like I I
5:43
can think of like a a flying griffin on
5:45
a couple of occasions, like a a dead one
5:47
I guess, or spirit griffin, but I don't
5:49
I don't really remember it. Yeah. So,
5:52
yeah, I got no idea. This is one I
5:55
>> classic once we got flying mounts and
5:57
could die in creatively elevated places.
6:00
They couldn't just have us run back cuz
6:02
you couldn't get there. So, you had, you
6:04
know, uh, along with your ghost, you had
6:08
a a ghost mount that you could ride, but
6:10
it they you can't sky ride. You can't,
6:13
you know, pop on your cooldowns and just
6:15
zoom back in 5 seconds because that
6:17
would be too easy.
6:19
>> Yeah, I just not something I'd ever
6:20
thought of. I had not been thinking
6:22
about it. And this question was here and
6:24
I'm like, I don't even remember that we
6:26
could do this. Okay. I This is how long
6:29
ago it's been since I played anything
6:31
but an elf. Like I I just I don't even I
6:33
I think I retired my Draanor. Yeah, I
6:36
tried retired my Dreni in in Warlords of
6:38
Dranor. I haven't played them since
6:40
three of them that I've retired.
6:42
Everybody I got on my roster now is an
6:44
elf like and they're all night elves. I
6:46
think my horde is nightightorn but I
6:49
haven't that one hasn't died in long
6:50
enough for me. So I haven't had to worry
6:52
about it. Yeah, that's that's wild. I
6:54
haven't even thought about it. But yeah,
6:55
if I had to come up with a law reason I
6:58
like Eric's, but the one I would have
7:00
come up with just so I'm giving you a
7:01
different answer to this question is
7:03
that it's, you know, you the fact that
7:06
you died is holding you down because you
7:08
know you're dead. The fact that you're
7:11
going to get up doesn't mean you didn't
7:12
just die. You you did. That's why
7:15
there's a spirit healer sitting there
7:16
going, "Nope, get on back to your body."
7:19
And it's it's they're not going to spend
7:21
their essence, their enema getting you
7:24
back to your body. You have to spend
7:26
your so you're you're essentially very
7:29
tired. It's the same reason that when
7:31
you get up, you only get up with like a
7:32
little health. You don't get up, you
7:34
know, after you run back to your body
7:36
and boom, I'm feeling great. You know,
7:38
you're like, "Oh boy, all the wounds are
7:40
still here. That ain't good. Oh, oh,
7:44
ouch. Oh god, the murlocs are coming
7:45
back." So, you know, that's that's my
7:48
take.
7:48
>> Yeah. I I like Eric's explanation of it
7:50
with like it being a deliberate choice
7:52
like in lore like them saying, "Hey,
7:55
remember how we told you to stop like,
7:57
you know, throwing away your life for
7:59
random stupid things? Stop it. Stop it.
8:01
Stop doing it right now." Um, I could
8:04
see that. Uh, I I know that in they've
8:08
never really explained it in the lore.
8:10
Um, mechanically it's just because the
8:13
world landscape has shifted so
8:15
considerably. The worlds that we are in
8:18
now are no longer flat. Um, most of them
8:22
are designed with you having access to
8:23
flying in mind. And part of the reason
8:26
why it's not uh dragon riding or
8:28
skyriding is simply because you're going
8:32
to crash. And your body might be in a
8:35
place where you can't skyide too
8:38
effectively. And so steady flight makes
8:40
that infinitely easier. It also means
8:43
that, you know, you don't have to worry
8:44
about not being able to recover your uh
8:47
your body or getting into weird crevices
8:50
where your body might be because one of
8:52
the other things that I think is
8:52
interesting is you have a resurrection
8:54
range um where like you get close enough
8:57
to your body and you can pop up um if
9:00
your body is in a weird or unusual
9:02
place, which players like us often times
9:06
do when we are solo playing or trying to
9:08
find that rare or where that resource
9:11
node is or turn into this quest and then
9:13
next thing you know we're so far under a
9:15
mountain that we can't get there. Um and
9:17
half the time we're getting there by
9:19
walking because they're in areas where
9:21
the flights can't go. Skyriding doesn't
9:23
make a whole lot of sense. But I do like
9:26
the the idea of both of yours combined
9:29
where like there's this deliberate
9:31
nature in it and also the fact that it
9:33
is an expenditure of because that's the
9:36
other thing, right? Like it's we know
9:37
that we are batteries of like Matt
9:40
pointed out when we get to our body
9:42
we're not instantly back up and and
9:43
better. We're not just like you know
9:45
putting the coat back on and getting
9:46
right back out there. No, we had to
9:49
expend energy to get there. The spirit
9:51
healer's job isn't necessarily to
9:54
resurrect us. They can and it has a
9:58
cost. If you remember, um, you take
10:02
durability, but you also are at reduced
10:04
stats for what is it, 25 minutes,
10:06
something like that. I forgot how long
10:07
it is.
10:08
>> 25. It used to be like like 10 minutes,
10:10
I thought.
10:11
>> I think it's 10 minutes.
10:12
>> It's they've kind of nerfed it and it's
10:15
not as bad immediately as it used to be.
10:16
But if you die over and over again, it
10:18
be it gets worse. But I always I always
10:21
view that as especially after we learned
10:23
about and Shadowlands that oh that's
10:26
them using your own energy to
10:30
essentially form your body again. That's
10:33
kind of why your stats are reduced cuz
10:34
your soul is like not 100%.
10:37
>> Yeah. And that's why your wounds don't
10:39
heal. Yeah. Like you get up with
10:40
practically nothing because they're not
10:42
going to they've only got so mucha to
10:44
spend around, man. They're not going to
10:46
be doing all that for you. you you need
10:48
to go get yourself somewhere else and
10:51
get yourself sorted out. Have a word
10:53
with yourself.
10:54
>> Yeah. And your ghost mount is in at
10:55
least as far as I would be concerned an
10:58
extension of your because even when you
11:00
were in like the mall like when we were
11:01
in Shadowlands and you died uh you got
11:04
the what was it the weightless soul uh
11:07
buff or whatever so that you flew as a
11:09
little tiny like soul entity instead of
11:13
uh you know your shade of your former
11:15
self on a weird shadow mount which made
11:18
sense. We're in the shadowlands. we're
11:20
we are where the bodies are the souls
11:22
are supposed to go when the bodies are
11:24
no longer there to contain the mortal
11:26
the mortal form. Um so that kind of made
11:29
sense. And then when we're back in
11:30
Azeroth, those spear healers are
11:32
anchoring you here saying, "Yep, yoink.
11:34
You're not allowed to go over there yet.
11:36
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no." Uh and
11:38
then after that, you kind of just use
11:40
your get back to your body, put the suit
11:42
back on, and get back at it. It's it's
11:45
an interesting thing and it's also one
11:46
of those things that there's a few
11:48
aspects of the game that people have
11:50
rarely if like questioned since the game
11:54
have has come out which I think is very
11:58
um and one of those things really is
12:01
Hearthston
12:03
and your resurrection and it wasn't
12:05
until Shadowlands that we learned
12:06
anything about the resurrection and
12:08
people hadn't even really been
12:09
questioning it up and now we now we
12:11
know. So, at some point we'll probably
12:13
get clarification on what those things
12:16
are when it seems appropriate to story
12:19
or just because it's we'll see. Anything
12:21
else you guys want to add to that one?
12:22
>> I've died 4,031 times on my main in 16
12:26
and 1/2 years. [laughter] And honestly,
12:29
it's it seems low. It's only four times
12:32
a week. I guess I do a lot of like
12:35
transmog runs and low-level content
12:37
because four times a week in 16 years. I
12:40
mean, plenty of breaks in there. Plenty
12:41
of times where I unsubed for a year to
12:43
go do other real life stuff, but 4,000.
12:46
I'm sure that people have way like share
12:49
your number with us. I'm sure people out
12:50
there have way more than that. I'm sure
12:52
you guys have 10 times more than that.
12:54
>> I'm not going to share my number even if
12:55
I [laughter]
12:56
because I know I died more than that.
12:58
>> Uh, as I am recording this, I cannot log
13:01
in to go see what it is, but I will I I
13:03
will definitely share that number at a
13:05
later date.
13:07
[laughter]
13:08
All right. All right. Well, we're going
13:09
to move on to our next question. And
13:10
this one comes from Tilman. Uh, a lore
13:13
watch question. After listening to the
13:15
latest episode, I got thinking about
13:16
Azara and why someone who is as powerful
13:18
as she is would need slash want to save
13:21
the elves after the Sundering. If she is
13:24
that powerful, could she just not save
13:25
herself and take over the less powerful
13:28
Denisonens of Azeroth and rebuild? My
13:30
theory is most of her power, not
13:32
including but in addition in addition to
13:34
her natural power is somehow linked to
13:36
the amount of followers/worippers
13:39
much like the AI in Stargate. I think
13:42
this is why she tried to save them in
13:44
order to maintain her power. I believe
13:46
if we are to defeat her, we need to
13:47
neutralize her followers in order to
13:50
reduce her power enough for to beat her
13:52
up. What are your thoughts on Azar's
13:54
power and how she amassed such a great
13:55
amount of it? We did a little bit of
13:57
talk about this, but Matt, would you
13:58
like to do a little bit of a deep dive?
14:00
>> Okay. Um, I don't think it's as simple
14:05
as as Ashara gains power from from
14:08
worship. I mean, I think psychologically
14:12
she does like she is all in on everyone
14:16
must love me at all time. Part of the
14:18
problem is that from the time of her
14:21
birth, Ashara was revered. She was born
14:24
with golden eyes. She was considered
14:27
perfect, you know, the most beautiful,
14:29
the most intelligent, the most
14:30
wonderful. Imagine growing up and
14:33
literally no one will ever tell you no
14:36
or in any way stop telling you how great
14:39
and wonderful you are. And also being
14:42
like from a very early age, powerful
14:45
enough to back it up. Like she that's
14:48
the other thing. She had her power like
14:51
almost from birth. Like as a young young
14:54
child, she was already very powerful
14:57
before everybody had heard of her. Um so
15:01
I definitely think there's a
15:02
psychological aspect that Ashara must be
15:06
woripped and regarded as amazing or she
15:08
does not she does not like it when you
15:10
don't. Um, but I don't think it's it's a
15:13
question of the elves worship or regard
15:17
is what keeps her up because if that
15:20
were the case when the sundering was
15:22
happening, she wouldn't have had the
15:24
power to shield that city from even a
15:26
second because already when that wave
15:30
was coming at Zenosari, m many many many
15:33
elves that already worshiped her were
15:35
dead. Like they'd already gone to the
15:38
bottom of the sea. She would have had a
15:40
massive power cut and she didn't. Like
15:43
today, we've seen Ashara do things just
15:46
off-handedly that she she could have
15:49
done when she had many many more
15:50
followers. This is just the fact. She
15:53
she lost the majority of elf worship.
15:56
She had every pretty much every elf on
15:59
Azeroth because at the time there
16:01
weren't any high elves or, you know,
16:04
blood elves or, you know, nightborn or
16:07
anything else. They were just Calderai.
16:11
That's it. The vast majority of them
16:13
thought of her as a goddess and many of
16:16
them had died at this point and many
16:18
more had turned from her and with no
16:22
notable drop in her power as far as we
16:24
could. The very fact that she could hold
16:27
that bubble as long as she could against
16:30
literally a wave the size of Azeroth's
16:34
entire ocean because the whole planet
16:36
was essentially had been just subsumed.
16:39
A huge chunk of the continent had just
16:41
gone down into the water. That says to
16:43
me that she didn't lose her power. She
16:47
didn't get weaker. She just couldn't
16:49
hold it. She just, you know, she does
16:51
have limits. She is a mortal being.
16:53
She's not a god as much as she likes to
16:55
think she is. And that's the the real
16:59
fundamental flaw of Ishara is that her
17:02
her hubris is massive. She is absolutely
17:06
a self-regarding. She thinks she is a
17:09
god like or should be a god or you
17:12
should consider her a god. She she's the
17:14
first kind of person who when basically
17:17
Zavas had fallen in love with her, she
17:19
was fully aware of it. She knew Zavius
17:22
loved her and she thought it was cute
17:24
like a puppy loving you. Um her her main
17:27
bodyguard also loved her absolutely
17:29
desperately. And again she she just felt
17:32
like you well you should you should love
17:34
me. I I'm amazing. It it's perfectly
17:36
good. But when she was thinking about
17:38
who should I love she they showed her
17:40
Sargeras and she thought that that's
17:42
like something I should love. That's
17:44
almost my equal. when when Manoroth came
17:47
to Azeroth and he was like more than
17:51
ready to kill Zavas uh her bodyguard
17:55
anybody that that he wanted to when she
17:58
stood up and told him to back down he
17:59
did because he just looking at her he's
18:01
like there's something about this woman
18:03
if I don't think I'll win if I pick this
18:06
fight I don't know if anybody outside of
18:08
Sargeras could beat her and you know
18:10
keep in mind that that is that is
18:13
something that is I just don't believe
18:15
it's as simple as she needs worship for
18:17
power. I don't think she would handle
18:20
the idea that she needed them very well.
18:24
Like if if she believed that she needed
18:26
the people of Zenosari to to fuel her
18:29
power, she would have just grabbed them
18:32
and left the city cuz she could do that.
18:35
She could mass teleport. I would I'd be
18:37
willing to believe she could mass
18:38
teleport the entire population of
18:40
Zenosari out if she wanted. You'll
18:42
notice she doesn't do that.
18:45
And that's something we know other
18:46
people can do. Maybe not to that scale,
18:49
but we know there are there are
18:51
magicians on Azeroth right now who can
18:53
teleport a group.
18:54
>> Antonitis and uh Jana have teleported
18:57
entire armies across the world.
18:58
>> Yeah. So, we know she could have just
19:01
moved the people out. You'll notice that
19:03
she did try to protect the people. She
19:05
also tried to protect the city. The city
19:08
was just as important to her. What did
19:10
the city have? All monuments to her
19:12
greatness. Ashar to me emotionally
19:14
speaking has always felt like doesn't
19:17
really understand why you don't worship
19:20
her. It doesn't really make a lot of
19:21
sense to her. Everyone told her from
19:24
birth that she was the greatest thing
19:26
ever and she spent her like thousands of
19:30
years of life before the sundering
19:32
believing that and acting upon it. And
19:35
in that time she reduced the two most
19:38
powerful empires on Azeroth to nothing.
19:42
She she took everything from both troll
19:45
nations that she wanted and if she
19:48
didn't want it, she left it to them. In
19:50
her lifetime, she did that. These were
19:52
the trolls beat the freaking a defeated
19:57
servants of the old gods and then she
19:59
walked in and just arcaneed them out of
20:00
her way wherever it suited her to do so.
20:04
She was not I don't I don't think it's
20:07
ever as simple as I need these people
20:10
because they feel my power. I need these
20:12
people because I need to be worshiped. I
20:15
need to be loved. I need continuous
20:18
reassurance that everything I'm doing is
20:20
the right thing to do. As and I say that
20:23
because that's a thing Sargeras has. If
20:26
you'll look at Sargeras, he's desperate
20:29
for the Pantheon to agree finally to
20:31
say, "You were right to to kill that
20:33
world soul. You were right to destroy
20:35
that void planet. You were right to
20:37
decide that the universe cannot be
20:39
saved." to the point where when he got
20:42
his hands on their souls, he basically
20:44
tortured them for eons to get them to
20:47
agree with him. And that to me is an
20:49
Ashara thing to do. She wouldn't torture
20:51
her because she would look down on it.
20:53
It's it's, you know, anybody will say
20:56
anything when you're torturing them. I
20:58
want you to love me and I will keep
20:59
coming up with ways to get you to love
21:01
me until you do. So, yeah, I don't agree
21:06
with your with your posture. It doesn't
21:07
mean that you're wrong or that it's not
21:10
a neat idea. I just don't The way I look
21:12
at Ashara, the way I've always
21:14
interpreted her is as somebody who is
21:17
ultimately at heart a child who never
21:21
got real love. She never got the kind of
21:24
love your parent gives you. The one
21:25
where they they'll tell you no. They'll
21:28
tell you things you're doing something
21:29
wrong. They will teach you how to go
21:31
through life. Ashara never got that. She
21:34
got you're the best thing in the
21:35
universe. every from everyone around her
21:39
until she was old enough to start
21:41
literally just conquering the planet and
21:44
she did it mostly as a game. There
21:46
there's a there is at the core of Ashara
21:49
I believe somebody who desperately would
21:51
like to be loved actually not because of
21:55
what she can do or how beautiful she is
21:57
but for who she is inside and it'll
22:00
never happen because she is curdled and
22:02
horrible inside but she still wants it.
22:05
That that's my take on this, Eric.
22:07
>> I really I Yeah, I really agree that if
22:10
followers were the source of power, then
22:12
her origin story would be different. You
22:13
know, she's got the golden eyes, the
22:16
affinity for magic. She's living near
22:18
the well of eternity, and that we don't
22:21
know exactly, but it seems like it
22:23
supercharges her. I mean, it's like if
22:24
Wayne Gretzky grew up next to like a
22:26
nuclear volcano that made him go out and
22:30
score 15 goals a game, it's he already
22:33
had all the skill and he already had all
22:35
the athleticism and the hockey sense,
22:37
but imagine just putting him next to the
22:40
Well of Eternity and then seeing what he
22:43
could do against other playing.
22:48
[laughter] That's the first thing I
22:49
thought of when you said nuclear
22:50
volcano.
22:52
>> Yeah. like Godzilla Gretzky. But I I
22:57
think that if it were the source of her
22:58
power were the the followers and the
23:00
worship, then you'd have a different
23:02
origin story. You know, she'd be okay
23:04
until she built up more of a following
23:06
and then she would be beloved and then
23:08
she would but like pretty early on in
23:11
her career in in her list of things that
23:15
she accomplished and things that
23:16
happened. Do you have her facing off
23:18
against Manoroth and Manoroth kind of
23:20
quailing and being like, "Oh, nope. I'm
23:23
a pit lord, but I'm gonna run away now."
23:25
Um, she pops up the barrier to survive
23:28
the sundering like a T-Rex waving in
23:30
little arms and casting a spell and
23:32
shrugging off the impactor that wiped
23:33
out all the dinosaurs. And then she
23:36
makes a pact with the N'oth and gets
23:37
even more power. I think when she's
23:40
thinking, I can survive this, no
23:42
problem. She's thinking, but if I
23:44
survive this, what's the point if I
23:46
don't have all these people that worship
23:48
me? And she, you know, makes the barrier
23:50
a little bit bigger and she saves, you
23:52
know, her highborn. And it's and it's
23:56
not an afterthought, but it's like the
23:57
next logical thought after, yeah, I'm
23:59
going to save myself. Um, I my question
24:02
for you two is, do you think we could
24:04
ever get more to her origin story? Do
24:06
you think there could be flashbacks or
24:08
something like a Caverns of Time dungeon
24:10
to kind of give us something we don't
24:13
know about early Ashara?
24:15
>> I mean, if they ever decide she's the
24:17
primary villain or important villain of
24:20
an of an expansion, hopefully we get a
24:22
novel like we did for so many others.
24:24
I'd really be interested to see the
24:25
Ashara novel.
24:26
>> Yeah, Matt and I had made a positive
24:28
this a while ago and and I still think
24:30
we're right on track for it. She's going
24:32
to pop back up at some point and she's
24:33
going to be a main character, a main
24:35
player. And if it's not for the last
24:38
Titan, I'm going to be very, very
24:40
surprised.
24:40
>> And it seems like it would be since
24:42
she's been gone for so long that we
24:45
have, you know, 20-year-old World of
24:48
Warcraft players who would be like,
24:50
"Who's this? I've never seen this in the
24:52
game and I started playing eight years
24:53
ago." Um, I think a little bit more than
24:57
I'm back and I'm ready to take over the
24:58
world. a little bit more, you know, who
25:02
is this person and more than just, you
25:04
know, six lore uh lore walking quests. I
25:06
think maybe, you know, where where does
25:09
her power actually come from? Was she
25:11
was she dipped in the well of eternity
25:12
as a baby? Does she have some unknown
25:15
parentage that we don't know of? Was
25:17
there was there something else going on
25:18
that we just don't have yet? Like, do
25:20
you think there could be a missing
25:21
puzzle piece or do you think
25:23
>> I [clears throat] think it ties in with
25:24
everything that happened in Herendar?
25:25
Yeah, I don't wouldn't be surprised to
25:27
find out that, you know, there's a
25:29
reason that the people on the surface
25:31
decided that she was even more important
25:34
than Aloon. Let's put it that way.
25:36
>> Especially when you consider the
25:37
Herandar probably like we don't know,
25:40
but there's a pretty good inkling that
25:42
they are like descendants of the
25:44
original night trolls that wandered
25:46
underground. Uh, and we know that the
25:49
roots in the cradle go to every single
25:52
world tree on Azeroth. It's also worth
25:55
considering that of of all the people
25:58
with golden eyes in night elf history,
26:01
he only one was born anywhere near
26:03
Ashara's lifetime. And Illan Storm Rage
26:07
was certainly powerful and certainly
26:09
important, but he was almost hidden like
26:13
they didn't bring him to any major
26:15
place. They didn't make that big a deal
26:18
of him in his hometown. And part of me
26:22
thinks that's because Ashara discouraged
26:24
it.
26:25
>> Yeah.
26:26
>> And I think there's a situation here
26:28
where we could find out that there was a
26:30
period of time where things were very
26:32
different in terms of who got to have
26:35
golden eyes and why and when they
26:37
happened. Um, but I, you know, this is
26:40
all me supposing. If I'll just say right
26:42
now, if I were going to be writing a
26:43
novel, I would look very seriously at Do
26:46
you guys remember there's a Doctor Who
26:49
story from the from the relaunch and
26:51
like I you know the most recent relaunch
26:53
where it's the current run up from the
26:55
like 2006 or so. There's a story where
26:58
the master turns out to have been taken
27:00
to the time vortex.
27:02
>> Yep.
27:02
>> And forced to stare into it. And you
27:05
know, it kind of drove him insane even
27:07
as it unlocked an abilities for him. I I
27:09
find myself wondering what if they took
27:12
they took the children with the golden
27:13
eyes to stare into the rift of to try
27:16
and find where the god where you know
27:19
their god was where is where is this
27:21
thing it's supposed to be here and
27:24
imagine if ashara was the one she looks
27:27
at and she's like she's in me I'm the
27:29
god and you know in much the same way
27:31
I'm not saying that that's what they're
27:32
going to do I'm just saying it keeps
27:34
reminding me of that that moment where
27:36
two people are brought to this thing and
27:39
one one breaks one way and the other
27:41
breaks another way. Um, so yeah, I don't
27:44
know, but I do think that Ashara's I do
27:46
think Ashara's life story intersects
27:49
with the the Harendere. Um, and I
27:53
wouldn't even be surprised if the
27:54
Harendere instead of being Night Trolls
27:57
are night elf descendants who decided to
28:00
go back to living like the Night Trolls.
28:02
like they may have been, you know, what
28:05
you'd call the original night elves. And
28:07
some of them were like, "No, we're not
28:09
we're not going to go live on the
28:11
surface. We're not going to conquer
28:12
anything. We're going to go back to what
28:14
we're supposed to be. We're going to be,
28:16
you know, we're going to live
28:16
underground and, you know, try to find
28:20
the goddess." You know, who knows? I
28:22
don't know. But I I definitely get these
28:23
ideas when I look at them. Like, there's
28:25
something about them. The one night
28:27
troll that we have on the surface has
28:28
not yet been brought in to talk to the
28:31
Harender, which I think is a massive
28:33
crime. Story time wise, I want that to
28:36
happen. We've got a living night troll.
28:38
We've got one. I want to see that night
28:40
troll talk to the Harendere. Yeah. I
28:43
mean, going back to the to to Azara,
28:45
she's definitely like I feel that the
28:48
Herender are tied up with this era of
28:50
night elf or or this era of elves in
28:53
general more than we know and probably
28:55
more than the Herender know because we
28:58
we've gotten that from their quest lines
28:59
where there's like a whole bunch of
29:00
their history that they've not
29:02
necessarily forgotten but have like
29:04
locked away
29:06
um and [clears throat] don't really
29:08
discuss anymore. They've had
29:09
interactions with Titan Watcher, Titan
29:12
Constructs, and they're essentially on
29:14
the same line of being branded heretics
29:17
in a, you know, a way that the uh the
29:20
dwarves were when we did the whole thing
29:23
with the war within. But going back to
29:25
just Azara as whole, like to echo what
29:29
has already been said, I'm firmly in the
29:31
camp of her power does not seem to be
29:34
born of worship. That seems to be
29:36
something that is almost exclusive to
29:38
Lowa, which is interesting. Um, and
29:42
possibly wild gods. We don't maybe we
29:45
don't know. That's that's the whole
29:47
debate of are wild gods Loa are Loa. Um,
29:50
but like we learned with Guamdi in the
29:52
battle for Azeroth that the reason he
29:55
wanted to be the new Loa of kings was
29:57
that level of worship because that
29:59
worship granted him power. That power
30:02
let him break from Weaala, right? like
30:04
he wouldn't be able to do the things he
30:06
needed to do to bring us in to that
30:09
sanctum to take out Moisala had that
30:12
positioning not been given to him and
30:14
that power granted. Right. So, there was
30:16
a level of that for Loa. We don't really
30:18
see that with mortals as much. Although,
30:23
it's funny that Matt mentions Illan cuz
30:26
what was one of the things that Illan
30:27
was known for doing to his fellow mages
30:30
in the Moon Guard?
30:31
>> Eating them.
30:32
>> Yep. Um, I mean, not literally eating
30:34
them,
30:35
>> consuming their power,
30:36
>> using them as batteries. So, he didn't
30:38
have to cast his own spells.
30:39
>> Well, I mean, he cast them, but he
30:41
didn't charge them. He didn't. In a way,
30:42
if you want to go back to the argument,
30:44
Illan had figured out how to use their
30:47
to cast spells, so he didn't have to use
30:49
his. Uh, and that's why a lot of the
30:52
Moon Guard when he was running them were
30:54
dying because he was draining them past
30:57
the point of their endurance. But as he
31:00
pointed out, if I don't do this, we just
31:02
all die, you know. So, it's
31:05
>> it's interesting to think about that.
31:07
That's not worship.
31:08
>> No,
31:09
>> that's just using people as batteries.
31:11
>> Now, wouldn't would Ashara do that?
31:13
Maybe.
31:14
>> Did she do that? I don't know.
31:16
>> That's the part we don't know, right?
31:17
Cuz like her her history, her past, and
31:20
like to Eric's point, we we could
31:22
definitely learn more about it at some
31:24
point. We should learn more about it at
31:26
some point.
31:27
>> Yeah. We don't know anything about her
31:28
parents.
31:29
>> We don't we don't know about her life as
31:30
as anything before she was queen and
31:33
even then only snippets, right? We know
31:36
we know the story of her life from a
31:39
very specific point of view if that
31:41
makes sense because the ones that ran
31:44
away or survived or the ones that take
31:48
umbrage with her are the ones that are
31:50
crafting the story of Azara. And I'm not
31:52
saying that she's like some giant
31:54
superhero and you know she has the the
31:56
most altruistic of hearts, but I'm
31:59
saying her existence, her personality,
32:03
and her decisions
32:05
ever since we did the Harbinger uh short
32:08
where we learned about her her making
32:10
that deal with N'oth. It's complicated.
32:13
And I know some people really hate that
32:15
word. Uh they hated it when we used it
32:17
for Sylvanas,
32:19
but it's true. and sometimes complicated
32:23
is just interesting because again we
32:26
know so little about little of Azara.
32:29
Would she use her own people as a
32:31
battery? Maybe. But then like to your
32:35
point, why wouldn't she have just
32:37
teleported herself out and gone and
32:39
found more willing subjects somewhere
32:41
else in the world? She could have
32:42
>> even just grabbed all of the ones that
32:44
she could get right there and had them
32:47
come with her and let the city go.
32:49
>> Yeah. But she didn't let the city go.
32:51
The city was important to her, too. And
32:53
that's, you know, why? Just the ego. Or
32:56
is there another reason?
32:57
>> See, and that's the thing. Like, I think
32:59
that that's maybe a little bit more of
33:00
it than people want to admit, and maybe
33:02
more than Azara wants to admit, is that
33:05
maybe a good section of this is just
33:07
down to her decisions for making the
33:10
deal with N'oth is ego. It's a I can't
33:15
get them out, but if I save them, they
33:18
will worship me even harder and I will
33:20
find a way out of this deal because I am
33:22
smarter than this entity, right? And I
33:25
think at some point and there again it
33:27
might be the child actor syndrome or or
33:29
or the you know the the the weird case
33:32
where she just innately has this human
33:36
flaw that she needs to be recognized and
33:39
adored in order to feel some form of
33:41
validation. And maybe because of her
33:45
history, maybe because of her parents,
33:47
maybe because was put on her as a kid,
33:50
uh, you know, maybe that made it so she
33:53
needed that external validation in order
33:55
to feel anything. So again, she's very
34:00
complicated. She's potentially a very
34:01
complicated uh person. Again, insanely
34:04
powerful in her own right. Could she be
34:06
using people as a battery? Yes. But I
34:08
think we've already seen her make that
34:11
decision. What did she go and get when
34:14
she needed to cast large spells in order
34:17
to break N'oth out? It wasn't.
34:20
It was pillars of creation. It was these
34:23
Titan charged artifacts that she used to
34:26
fuel that instead. She could have easily
34:28
used her. She didn't. It is a conscious
34:32
choice. Well, I shouldn't. Let's be
34:34
clear. We're saying she didn't use them
34:36
to generate her power. You cannot say
34:38
she didn't use her people. She
34:40
absolutely uses her people. Sure, her
34:42
people are an extension of her will, but
34:43
she doesn't use them as batteries or
34:46
food that we can see.
34:47
>> No,
34:48
>> we see her using them, you know, they
34:51
should do this for me because they love
34:53
me and they should love me because
34:55
everyone told me everyone should love
34:57
me. So therefore, you know, she she
35:01
likes she likes to to put them in
35:03
positions where they can sacrifice
35:05
something for her, but she doesn't take
35:07
it. taking it would be rude
35:11
and crude and crass and not to her
35:14
standards. Also, I think it's
35:16
interesting that like while she she will
35:19
use her her people like pieces on a
35:21
chess board, it's never without purpose,
35:25
if that makes sense. Yeah, she's not
35:27
wasteful. That's another thing about
35:29
Ashar I really think needs to be
35:30
mentioned. Every time she's come up,
35:33
she's either playing a kind of a Xanitos
35:35
game where whatever you do will help her
35:37
in some way or she's just straight up
35:39
like, I don't want to sacrifice this
35:42
person at this time. Like when she tried
35:44
to get the tide stone the first time,
35:47
she was her her people were bulked. She
35:49
didn't kill anyone cuz they didn't bring
35:51
it to her. She didn't overlord list it.
35:54
She just waited. And then once they were
35:57
done using the tide stone for something
35:59
else, then she sent someone in to grab
36:01
it while they were occupied. While we
36:03
were occupied, we're the ones who were
36:05
occupied. Um, she's a very logical
36:09
thinker.
36:10
>> And even when you see what happened with
36:11
N'oth. She had two different ideas on
36:14
how to beat N'oth and she deployed the
36:17
second one when the first one didn't
36:18
work out. And I bet you tend to one if
36:21
that one hadn't worked, she had another
36:22
one. She's going to have multiple plans
36:25
and she's never wasteful with them. She
36:28
didn't kill us because she knew we could
36:30
be useful.
36:30
>> I find it fascinating that she commands
36:34
almost absolute loyalty from her
36:37
followers. There are almost no good guy
36:41
Naga. We haven't come across any Naga
36:44
that we align with. We haven't come
36:46
across a single one in 21 and a half
36:48
years that's like I'm kind of
36:49
disillusioned and I got a couple friends
36:51
that are too and here's what she's up to
36:53
and here's how we're going to get back
36:55
to her. There's like a handful of Naga
36:58
that aren't outright hostile across all
37:01
of World of Warcraft and all the
37:03
expansions. You would think that there
37:05
would be at least some that were born
37:08
into it or like 10th generation because
37:10
they're actually, you know, breeding and
37:13
hatching new Naga that at some point
37:15
somebody would say, "I don't like this
37:17
scene down here." And uh I don't like
37:19
raiding coastlines and doing whatever
37:21
Azara says. There's none of that. So
37:24
either she gets to them.
37:26
>> Can you Can you think of any?
37:28
>> There's one, but he doesn't even he
37:29
doesn't like us or work with us.
37:32
>> Yeah. Uh there's a the Naga um heretic
37:36
who does who worships the uh tide lord
37:39
Nebulon,
37:40
>> right?
37:41
>> And kind of through the way he talks,
37:44
you you get the sense he kind of
37:46
worships Nebulon as a servant of the old
37:48
gods as if someone didn't give him the
37:51
memo that that Nebulon, you know, uh
37:54
tide, you know, the tide walker is not
37:57
on the same side as the old gods
37:58
anymore. But that guy's the only one I
38:01
can think of. And even he he isn't like
38:03
betraying her so much as, you know, he
38:07
knows she'll kill him. He just feels
38:09
like, you know, I I know that this thing
38:11
exists and I have to I can't not tell
38:15
people about it. It's like one of those
38:16
people that knows I'm going to get in
38:17
trouble for this, but but I have to tell
38:19
my truth and my truth is, you know, you
38:22
know, the the elemental lords are
38:25
important and you know, here here comes,
38:27
you know, Ashar's going to send someone
38:28
to kill me now. Uh, that's basically the
38:31
only one I can think of. Lady Vos, even
38:34
her, and she was doing some weird stuff
38:36
with Illan there, but even her, it felt
38:39
like what she was doing was ultimately
38:41
for Ashara. Uh, to the point where she
38:43
actually had that like kind of there's a
38:44
there's an implication that, you know,
38:47
Ashara sent her to Illan when he called
38:50
like like a almost respect between.
38:53
>> Yeah. But that doesn't necessar I mean
38:54
and and we talked about this too a
38:56
little bit when we did a the Azara deep
38:59
discussion and I think we were asked a
39:00
question about this before of are there
39:02
Naga that don't follow her and far as we
39:06
know there are we just they don't really
39:08
align with us. Uh the ones in Outland
39:11
may not be doing anything with her again
39:14
ever because they're there and she's
39:16
here and they maybe think that she's
39:18
free or that they're free from her. But
39:21
we've never had a storyline that's
39:23
really dove into that. Especially
39:25
because the consideration of there has
39:28
to be ones that are not necessarily
39:32
happy with their it's like, yeah, I woke
39:35
up that day and I, you know, I had legs
39:37
and, you know, I could dance and I, you
39:39
know, had this like really pretty hair
39:40
and it was uh, you know, I could play a
39:42
loot and and all this other stuff and
39:44
now I got four arms and spines and a
39:47
snake tail. This ain't great. I don't
39:49
like this. Where where are my toes? I
39:51
miss my toes.
39:53
>> Think about how bad it is for the males.
39:55
>> Yeah.
39:56
>> Like, you know, the males are like beast
39:58
things. They're they're not as smart as
40:02
they were. They're they're more like a a
40:04
primitive. Some of them are just
40:05
straight up tanks of destruction while
40:07
others just still holding on to sanity.
40:09
>> But you'll notice most of the ones are
40:11
still holding on to some kind of
40:12
leadership role are altered physically.
40:15
They have all this weird shellbased
40:17
stuff on them.
40:18
>> Yeah. Warlord Nagata and like a whole
40:20
bunch of the other ones like they're
40:21
they're all sort of like that.
40:22
>> Yeah. And it's kind of like did Ashara
40:24
do that to make you more useful to her?
40:27
You know, there's a lot to That's the
40:30
other thing is I'd like to see more
40:31
about Naga society. Like what are they
40:34
doing? is Ashara just have them in this
40:36
great big hippie commune of loving her
40:39
or you know we know that the Naga have
40:42
been attacking other people under under
40:44
the ocean surface to the point where
40:46
they've wiped out at least one species
40:48
more or less um you know we saw that in
40:52
uh Battle for Azeroth. So Ashara's
40:54
people are doing a lot of stuff
40:56
underwater that we never see. That's the
40:58
other thing. She's chosen her her
41:01
kingdom is in a place where most people
41:03
in Azeroth will never hear from or see
41:05
it.
41:06
>> Yeah. And I think when we inevitably get
41:09
more Azara story, there's going to be
41:12
something to that. And I would not be
41:14
surprised if as we learn about the
41:17
delicate balance of what she has in her
41:20
tenuous grasp of power with her people
41:22
that we learn more about, you know,
41:25
resistance or folks that are not happy
41:28
with their their plight or, you know,
41:31
want to go back to the surface or want
41:33
to be elves again or want to be reunited
41:35
with their elven family. Um because
41:37
that's the other thing, too. Families
41:39
were torn aunder when when uh Zenoshari
41:41
went down.
41:43
um we you know there there there folks
41:46
that may still be alive halfway across
41:49
the world that their family are now
41:51
Naga, right? They didn't they may not
41:53
have had a choice in the matter. Um it
41:56
it's going to be interesting. is going
41:58
to be complicated. But again, I don't
42:00
think just going back to the root of it,
42:02
the worship of her, I don't necessarily
42:04
know that it is what gives her her
42:06
power, but I also don't know that the
42:08
worship of her is caused by her using
42:11
her power either. There's a slightly
42:14
infectious awe to her. I think we we
42:17
know about when you're around her and
42:19
maybe that was some form of magic. Um,
42:22
but it also just might be good
42:23
oldfashioned fear, right? like you can't
42:26
just underestimate the classics. Um the
42:29
well we're stuck here, you're in my
42:31
kingdom. I saved your life and if you
42:33
don't follow me, you're just going to be
42:35
fish food for my Leviathan or you know
42:39
heckle and Jackal and the weird boss
42:41
fight where they're uh you know you got
42:43
to kill giant eles. Um
42:46
>> yeah, go ahead and swim away. See how
42:47
see how far you get. That kind of thing,
42:49
>> right? And so like it might just be a
42:51
thing where they're there. they don't
42:52
maybe not necessarily want to be, but
42:54
they don't necessarily worship her like
42:56
a god or like they used to. Um, and also
43:00
we don't again we don't know the true
43:02
source of that worship. Was it because
43:04
of her presence? Was it because of a
43:06
magical like aura or awe about her? Or
43:10
was it because what Matt was talking
43:12
about earlier where she was presented as
43:15
the savior of elven kind essentially as
43:19
the connection to their their god that
43:21
she had a great destiny uh that would be
43:24
you know that would unfold in the future
43:26
and everybody believed in that believed
43:29
in that prophecy more than they believed
43:31
in the individual. How much of that is
43:33
there? Cuz how many times have we seen
43:35
that in history in real life where an
43:39
individual of no import stumbles into
43:44
something like that. People who are true
43:46
believers of a prophecy or a statement
43:49
uh or or something of like myth or
43:52
legend and then they position themselves
43:55
as the object of that myth or legend,
43:58
right? Her parents basically did that to
44:00
her at the time she was born or her
44:02
elders or whoever presented her. Yeah,
44:03
whoever it was who found this kid with
44:06
golden eyes and took him to Alo Lunerus
44:08
and then you know within her lifetime
44:12
this the eye of Aloon the city you know
44:14
dedicated to and venerating Aloon
44:17
stopped and just became the you know
44:20
glory of Ashara.
44:22
>> Yeah. Was she presented as the voice of
44:23
Aloon? Was she presided as the voice of
44:25
Azeroth? Was she presented as the true
44:28
embodiment of the goddess that they all
44:30
worshiped cuz they worshiped Aloon back
44:32
then, right? Here's the thing though.
44:34
They did worship Illumin then, but we
44:36
don't there was thousands of years
44:38
between we see we see the sundering. We
44:40
see Ashara at the height of her power
44:43
which was thousands of years after her
44:45
birth. We don't I'm going to me me me me
44:47
me me me me me me me me me me me me me
44:47
me me me me me me me me me me mention
44:47
this because I've always been wondering
44:48
about it. The Torin have two. They have
44:52
an Musha. Yep.
44:54
>> Why? There's obviously some kind of sun
44:58
worshiing trend in the elves because as
45:01
soon as the highborn broke away, that's
45:04
what they started doing.
45:06
>> Yep.
45:06
>> And they were led by a guy whose last
45:09
name meant he who walks by day. Why is
45:12
that all gone? Like is that is it a case
45:16
of Eloon
45:18
didn't ever have a daytime companion?
45:22
There was no sun worship. or did Ashara
45:26
scrub it cuz she doesn't seem to like
45:28
people having other gods. The guy who's
45:31
worshiping Neptilon is fully cognizant
45:33
of the fact that she's going to kill him
45:35
for it. All the other, you know, wild
45:37
gods are kind of ignored when when we
45:40
first see Malfurion becoming a druid. He
45:44
only managed to do it because Sinarius
45:47
was teaching him. And Sinarius is no
45:49
longer respected by the night elves.
45:52
Why? Why would you give up the, you
45:54
know, connection with the wild gods?
45:56
They're clearly powerful and helpful.
45:58
Did Ashara ban them? And did she do
46:01
anything else? She clearly wiped Aloon's
46:03
name off of a city dedicated to her. And
46:07
the only big temple of Aloon left that
46:11
we know of at the time was the one
46:13
across the well of eternity where she
46:16
didn't have to see it, where there was
46:18
no sign of it. And you'll also notice
46:20
that Ashara didn't decide, oh, I should
46:22
try to save Suramar. She didn't care at
46:25
all about Suramar.
46:26
>> Nope.
46:27
>> So, I I do find myself there's a lot of
46:30
stuff we don't know about this time
46:31
period that we don't know about the
46:34
young life of of Ashara. What was she
46:37
like as a child? Was there ever a point
46:39
where she might have turned out to be a
46:40
good person? Uh, is there anything? You
46:43
know what? We only know her after she's
46:47
had at least a thousand years of worship
46:49
from the entire night elf nation. We
46:51
don't know her coming up. We We know
46:54
nothing about her
46:55
>> except like little things like the uh
46:57
there's a shaman artifact, the healing
47:00
one, the scepter of the tides. Yeah.
47:04
>> There's a story about her rejecting it
47:06
because it was This is why I don't
47:07
necessarily think she gains power from
47:09
worship. She rejects the thing because
47:11
it's not power she controls.
47:13
>> Yeah. Well, it's not Yeah. It's not
47:14
power she controls and it's not power
47:16
like Sher Stal uh is not it's not
47:21
something she can like shape, right?
47:25
It's not it's not mutable to her. So,
47:28
yeah, it's it's got and interestingly
47:31
enough, and we're running out of time,
47:33
but I think we can finish this line of
47:34
thought. Um, it I hadn't thought about
47:37
this in a while, but the scepter has
47:40
water from the well of eternity prior to
47:42
it, right? It is a magical
47:44
[clears throat]
47:45
artifact that its entire purpose is to
47:49
heal. And why would she not want to
47:52
have? Is there a reason? Or is it
47:55
because it's Titan power? Because it is
47:57
Titan power. We know that. We know that
47:59
the well of eternity is some combination
48:02
of whatever the titans did to uh staunch
48:07
a wound essentially and the natural
48:10
azerite that is Azeroth's blood or blood
48:13
adjacent equivalent, right? So why
48:17
why wouldn't she want it? Why would she
48:20
give up an obvious source of power? Do
48:23
you guys have thoughts on that? I mean,
48:25
again, I think I already said mine that
48:27
I basically think that uh I'm going to
48:30
let Eric go and then I'll come back in
48:31
because I just had another idea and I
48:32
need time to form it.
48:33
>> Yeah. I mean, it just seems like it
48:35
wasn't exactly what she wanted and like
48:38
I've always said, she's always thinking
48:39
10 steps ahead. So, I mean, I I'd be
48:44
interested to know in some of her
48:45
backstory like when she became aware of
48:48
things like the Titans and their history
48:52
and their motivations and things like
48:55
that instead of, you know, not that
48:58
anyone really knew much of it when the
49:00
Legion was first attacking in the War of
49:01
the Ancients, like that stuff wasn't
49:03
really known or uncovered. like does she
49:06
have some information that she's got
49:08
somewhere along the way that that you
49:10
know that is really what keeps her
49:12
followers going that she knows something
49:14
that every time somebody starts
49:16
grumbling in the ranks they're like yeah
49:18
but remember this is why we're following
49:20
her and and that and that goes along
49:22
with it. So, like there's always
49:24
whenever you have a character that knows
49:25
stuff that we don't and knows knows
49:28
something that we don't even know that
49:29
she knows something, there's always
49:31
those decisions where you're like, but
49:34
why why would she do that? Why would she
49:36
refuse this obvious source of power?
49:39
Like maybe maybe that's it, but maybe
49:41
we'll come back to it and find out
49:43
exactly exactly what it was. Maybe her
49:45
endgame was set all the way back then
49:49
and it just didn't align with what she
49:52
thought she needed and what she thought
49:53
she had to do. I I don't know. Or I'm
49:56
wondering too if maybe it's too close to
49:59
Azeroth
50:02
because the other thought that I had is
50:04
out of all of the entities that have
50:06
craved power that we've dealt with or
50:09
have had a very obvious want to
50:11
subjugate Azeroth, that doesn't seem to
50:14
have been her goal at any point. At
50:16
least not in anything that she's done.
50:19
She hasn't really sought to subvert
50:21
Azeroth's power or or you know move it
50:25
to herself or wake Azeroth up and make
50:29
it imprint on her as mommy. Um, but
50:33
instead she's almost like with Aloon
50:36
kind of wanted to escue Azeroth like
50:40
like make people not think about it,
50:43
maybe not have that symbolism, not have
50:45
a thing that could maybe talk through
50:48
her or to her. Um, Matt and I had talked
50:51
about this a while ago, like a long long
50:53
while ago about Magny uh, and his
50:55
ability to speak with Azeroth. Um, and
50:58
then we revisited this with Battle for
51:00
Azeroth when Azerite came up and it
51:03
seemed like touching Azerite expanded
51:05
your consciousness. But did it actually
51:07
expand your consciousness or did it just
51:10
put you in touch with the rest of the
51:12
world that was touching Azeroth as one
51:15
communal organism essentially? Um,
51:17
giving you access to the fact that
51:19
Azeroth hears everybody's voices.
51:23
We know that. We know that she does.
51:24
She's capable of hearing all of us. she
51:26
just doesn't talk to. Um, is is that
51:30
maybe something to do with it? Um, I
51:33
don't know. I I don't know. But it seems
51:36
again, yeah, it just seems odd that she
51:38
would skew or toss aside or ignore a
51:42
very obvious source of power when she
51:45
definitely went after things like the
51:46
pillars of
51:46
>> Yeah, we don't have a true like endgame
51:49
or overall motivation. I mean, you look
51:51
at Iridicron and he's basically just
51:55
said to us, "I hate I hate the Titans
51:57
and I hate what they've done and I'm
52:00
just honestly can't wait to punch him in
52:02
the face about it." And we don't have
52:05
that for Ashar. We don't have is she
52:07
looking to save Azeroth, destroy, take
52:09
over, ignore. Like, we can make some
52:11
guesses, but we don't know. We've never
52:13
heard. I you know and something just
52:15
occurred to me and maybe and this is
52:17
just a wild tinfoil hat thing and this
52:19
is out of left field. Um but two things
52:22
I remember
52:23
>> better not be the idea I'm waiting to
52:24
say.
52:25
>> If it if it is if it is I owe you a
52:27
Coke. Um the the scepter was lost during
52:32
War of the Ancients, right? like it was
52:35
lost during that entire conflict before
52:37
like it was before her and her people
52:39
were swallowed
52:41
uh by the tides, right? Is there a
52:44
possibility or a world and where she saw
52:47
the writing on the wall and this is yet
52:50
another one of her contingency plans
52:52
that she knew that something was going
52:55
to be messed up? Maybe she had heard the
52:56
whispering of N'oth or the old gods or
52:58
learned about their existence because
53:00
she was not a she's not a dumb person.
53:03
Uh, and she wasn't dumb then either. She
53:05
was very, very intelligent and very on
53:07
top of things uh, for the most part.
53:10
She's not perfect obviously, but do you
53:13
think that maybe she thought something
53:15
might go sideways like what happened
53:18
accepting the gift and I'm going to air
53:20
quote gift of N'oth that transformed her
53:22
people and literally lost this and I'm
53:27
air quoting real hard with my fingers um
53:30
this artifact on purpose to be used
53:34
later as a way to restore her people to
53:37
elves.
53:38
>> Let me say something. I'm going to come
53:40
in on the thing I was thinking then
53:41
because it can it could be used for
53:43
this. I I want you to think what is the
53:46
golden eyes? Why is it important? What
53:48
does it mean? Now think about this. What
53:51
happened in Shadowlands? We started
53:52
finding out something about souls that
53:56
you could break a soul. You could
53:58
fragment into multiple pieces. You could
54:00
have a soul that calls itself um you
54:04
know Uther the you know the redeemer.
54:07
That soul can go to the Shadowlands
54:09
while at the same time that soul still
54:11
resides within Frostorn. And meanwhile,
54:14
another version of that soul that has
54:17
all its memories keeps popping up every
54:19
like once a year. You can go talk to it.
54:21
How is that possible? Cuz you can
54:23
fragment the soul. Uh Sylvanas didn't
54:26
have all of her soul for years. She only
54:29
got it back at the end of Shadowland.
54:31
There's obviously a piece of Arthus
54:33
involved in the magic that was used to
54:35
bind and you know cuz he even feels it
54:38
the world we know that in the rift of
54:40
Alm they went to find their god and the
54:42
god wasn't there and they you know they
54:45
decided to to go try to go find it and
54:48
in the cradle there were you know world
54:51
tree connections everywhere on Azeroth
54:53
right what if the thing the world soul
54:57
was fragmented and literally Everything
55:01
on Azeroth seems to be connected to it.
55:04
Perhaps that's because everything on
55:05
Azeroth gets a little piece of it. It's
55:08
the world soul or fragments of it that
55:11
make the the new Earthan true beings
55:14
that aren't controlled by titans. It's
55:16
the pieces of the world soul that go
55:19
into everyone's mind. And that's why
55:22
when you're exposed to Azerite, you get
55:25
expanded because you're now contacting
55:27
all the other pieces of the world soul.
55:29
And the world soul itself might still be
55:31
intact as well. There may be a world
55:34
soul entity in the world and yet all
55:36
these other pieces and all the other
55:38
pieces of all of them certain people
55:42
might get more. What if Ashara is a god?
55:46
What if she is specifically part of the
55:48
world soul when told maybe when this
55:51
little child was taken and shown the
55:53
rift of alm maybe she was like yeah
55:55
that's the place I left and she's not
55:58
she's she wants to be loved because
56:00
that's her birthright you have to love
56:02
her you know babies feel that way babies
56:05
thrive when they are given love and care
56:08
and when they are not they they don't
56:11
thrive they can they can be sickly they
56:14
can be weak or they can just break and
56:17
then they're unable to love back anymore
56:21
because they they don't have the the you
56:22
know the the uh framework for it. You
56:25
know, was Ashara basically just raised
56:28
from birth and she didn't have a hugging
56:30
doll like those those you know monkeys
56:33
in the experiments where they didn't
56:34
give them a cloth monkey frame just to
56:36
hug. like was she raised, you know,
56:39
completely outside of any sort of normal
56:42
interaction where she just got, you
56:44
know, the the organized almost religious
56:47
love instead and she made that into her
56:50
thing because that's all she had. And
56:53
for that matter, at the same time, is
56:55
she a little weird and inhuman or
56:58
unelven, I guess, because she's not, you
57:01
know, she doesn't need the city to be
57:02
called, you know, a lundrous when she's
57:06
the world. Like, why do I have this, you
57:08
know, goddess figure when I'm here? You
57:11
don't, you know, it may not just be that
57:13
she's an egoomaniac. She might be an
57:15
egoomaniac, but her egoomania might be
57:17
fueled by the fact that she is
57:20
important. She is this enormous chunk of
57:24
what was the animating force of our
57:27
world. The well of eternity fascinated
57:30
her. That's why she she appointed Zavius
57:32
to study the thing.
57:33
>> It's also why her like if you go back in
57:35
like her lounge was like overlooking it.
57:38
>> Yeah. Imagine if you spend all your time
57:40
looking at the well of eternity, not
57:42
because you, you know, because it's you
57:45
and you know it. Even though you don't
57:47
have words for it, you feel it.
57:49
>> The resonance.
57:51
>> Yeah.
57:52
>> Yeah.
57:53
>> So, I've been thinking about this all a
57:54
lot ever since the Rift of Allen was
57:56
first mentioned in this expansion.
57:59
Because before that, we didn't know
58:00
anything about it other than it was a
58:01
rift. Oh, it was
58:04
>> and it had been mentioned before
58:06
>> and we had seen it when we did the
58:08
nightmare raid. When we got to the end
58:09
and the uh last vest vestigages of the
58:13
nightmare uh when you go and touch it,
58:16
it
58:16
>> the nightmare was the only really
58:18
important thing we knew about the rift
58:19
of
58:20
>> Well, yeah, but I'm just saying like we
58:21
we the little black thing that you you
58:23
click on and you get the the little
58:24
nightmare rose from was referred to as
58:27
the rift of
58:28
>> Yeah. And if imagine if you know you are
58:32
the thing that went through the rift.
58:35
You you are and every living thing on
58:38
the planet is ultimately at least a tiny
58:41
bit of the thing the part of the the you
58:43
know massive world soul that went
58:45
through that rift. And so Ashara has got
58:48
a bigger piece than most. Illan's got a
58:50
bigger piece than most. It doesn't
58:52
necessarily make them good people
58:55
because they're literally walking
58:57
trauma. You know, you are the trauma of
58:59
a god that was broken in pieces. That's
59:01
just something I keep thinking about. I
59:03
don't know that it's accurate. I have no
59:05
idea that this will ever be something
59:06
they pick up on, but I do think about it
59:09
a lot in terms of like where is her
59:11
power coming from. Her power is coming
59:13
from the fact that she is got a little
59:15
bit more than the rest of of the people
59:17
of Azeroth. And that's what the Golden
59:19
Eyes were. The Haraneers certainly seem
59:21
to have a concept of being in contact
59:22
with the god. And we've met someone when
59:26
we were doing the end of uh the war
59:29
within. We met a speaker who spoke to
59:32
the world like Magny did. What did Magny
59:35
do? He turned into Diamond.
59:37
>> Mhm.
59:37
>> And the one that we we met Oh, I can't I
59:40
want to say on Argus, but wasn't on
59:41
Argus. Uh what was the name of the world
59:44
we went to in the end of of the war
59:46
within? Why can't I remember this?
59:47
>> Caresh.
59:48
>> Caresh.
59:48
>> Caresh. Thank you. The one the the the
59:50
soul speaker that we meet in Kesh hasn't
59:53
physically changed that much that we
59:55
know of.
59:56
>> Well, that's kind of a weird thing to
59:59
say because they're not essentially have
1:00:00
a physical form anymore.
1:00:02
>> Yeah. But we don't know if the
1:00:03
connection to the world soul is had any
1:00:06
effect on that.
1:00:07
>> We don't because their body is no longer
1:00:09
there. So, we'd have nothing to compare.
1:00:10
>> Yeah. So, but if if being touched by the
1:00:14
world soul affects people in various
1:00:17
ways and we know two of them off the
1:00:20
top, we know the golden eyes now and we
1:00:23
know about the turning into diamond.
1:00:25
Why? Why does the world soul turn Magny
1:00:27
into diamond? Is it because Magny is a
1:00:30
is a is created by the Titans or is the
1:00:33
you know the trolls were created by
1:00:35
Azeroth?
1:00:36
>> But yet we know that that's not
1:00:38
necessarily the case. We know that it is
1:00:40
something that existed before because
1:00:42
the earthen speakers were diamond. We
1:00:45
know that. Yeah.
1:00:46
>> But we don't know if they weren't also
1:00:48
being touched by Azeroth.
1:00:49
>> We know that they were.
1:00:51
>> Yeah.
1:00:51
>> Yeah. When they got close when they were
1:00:53
really close to the world core
1:00:55
>> and we know that the Earth and now the
1:00:57
new ones are also being touched that
1:01:00
way.
1:01:00
>> They also have golden eyes. Anyway, um I
1:01:03
think
1:01:04
>> we can stop now.
1:01:05
>> We we're gonna call it there. Uh but
1:01:08
with that friends, I do want to thank
1:01:09
you for joining us and remind you that
1:01:10
Blizzardwatch is made possible due to
1:01:13
your generous contributions at
1:01:14
patreon.com/bizzardwatch.
1:01:16
Your continued support means that this
1:01:17
podcast siting community is able to
1:01:19
thrive and grow. Blizzard watch
1:01:21
supporters enjoy exclusive benefits like
1:01:22
early access to the podcast. A better
1:01:24
chance at having your question answered
1:01:25
on our podcast in the queue and an
1:01:26
answer site experience. Again, if you
1:01:28
have questions for this or any of our
1:01:30
podcasts, be sure to send those in to
1:01:32
podcast at blizzardwatch.com. specify
1:01:34
the show that it is for in the subject
1:01:36
line as well as any special
1:01:37
pronunciation of your name. You can also
1:01:39
hit us on Discord. We have two channels
1:01:41
set aside. We have the Q and podcast
1:01:42
questions channel open for everybody.
1:01:44
Same rules apply. And if you are a
1:01:46
Patreon subscriber, we have the patron Q
1:01:49
and podcast questions channel set aside
1:01:50
specifically for you where we tend to
1:01:52
look there first as a way of saying
1:01:53
thank you for helping us keep the lights
1:01:55
on. With that, friends, we'll see you
1:01:57
next week.
#Games