Up next in 10
Looking back and knowing what we do about Harandar and the deep roots of the World Trees, do we owe Fandral an apology in hindsight? Matt and Joe have a lot of lore to back up their answer, which is like 20 minutes worth of "lol, no." A stopped clock may be right twice a day, but it's still broken, and Fandral Staghelm didn't just ask us humbly for Morrowgrain. All bets are off when you try to re-summon Ragnaros.
But starting off the show is a discussion on Vol'jin and his family, and why we don't really see them in the game. We don't have a ton of Darkspear characters, and that difference is pretty stark in an expansion packed with Amani. So, why might Blizzard not be making Vol'jin's family front and center when they're some of the few other representatives of the canon baseline Trolls?
This and more, on this week's Lore Watch Podcast.
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0:04
[music]
0:10
Hello and welcome to Lore Watch, a round
0:12
table free discussion about lore in your
0:13
favorite media. I'm your host, Joe
0:15
Perez, one of several lore focused folks
0:17
from Blizzard Watch, and I've got my
0:19
stalwart companion with me as always,
0:20
Matt Rossy. How you doing today, Matt?
0:23
Uh, apparently I'm being stalwart. Yes,
0:25
who knew? Big shield. No, I'm fine.
0:29
>> [laughter]
0:30
>> Uh Eric will not be joining us today. He
0:33
is currently traveling. We wish him all
0:35
the best in his uh movement there. Uh he
0:38
will be there uh with us the next time,
0:41
I am certain. Uh but we're going to be
0:43
answering some questions from you, our
0:45
wonderful listeners. And I do want to
0:47
remind everybody that you have questions
0:48
for this or any of our podcasts, I want
0:51
you to be sure to go ahead and send
0:53
those into podcastardwatch.com.
0:57
specify the show that it is for in the
0:59
subject line as well as any special
1:00
pronunciation of your name.
1:02
If you want to hit us on Discord, we
1:04
have two channels set aside. We have the
1:06
Q and Podcast questions channel. It's
1:08
open up for everybody. Same rules apply.
1:10
Send us an email. If you are a Patreon
1:12
subscriber, however, we do have the
1:14
patron Q and podcast questions channel
1:16
where if we kind of set it aside for
1:18
you, we look there first. It's our extra
1:20
way of saying thank you for helping us
1:21
keep the lights on. But without further
1:23
ado, this first one comes from uh
1:26
Vixilink.
1:28
Uh I'm wondering why we never really got
1:30
to learn much about Vuljin's family. The
1:33
only ones we know of are Senzhen, his
1:35
dead dad, and his youngest son, Yeneku,
1:39
who we haven't heard from in forever. In
1:42
the Vulg book, he seemingly implies he
1:45
has a partner when talking to Terthan.
1:48
Uh they're talking about who they have
1:50
in their lives that would miss them if
1:52
they died and Vulgun simply says she
1:55
going to understand.
1:57
[clears throat]
1:58
This is on page 202 of the book by the
2:00
way. Other than that, we just know that
2:03
he has at least one more son as Yanuku
2:06
is described as his youngest. Why have
2:09
we never heard anything about these
2:11
unnamed characters? We could use a few
2:14
more since we've got so few Dark Spear
2:17
characters at the moment anyway. The
2:19
only ones I can think of is really
2:22
Master Godren, Rokan, and Zakan.
2:26
So, I mean,
2:29
why we haven't heard from them is
2:31
because likely it doesn't fit
2:35
narratively for any particular reason.
2:37
While it would be nice to have them,
2:40
family in this game tends to be mostly
2:43
introduced when it serves story.
2:47
Diagnosed
2:50
as a physical character until it served
2:53
the story. We knew he existed. He was
2:55
there as an NPC, but it didn't really do
2:58
anything and we didn't really have a
2:59
whole lot about him. And now we do. Uh,
3:02
Er was much the same way. We knew who
3:04
Erat was, but at one point he was just
3:07
an NPC you talked to on the other side
3:09
of the Dark Portal.
3:10
>> Yeah. You mainly saw him in the uh
3:13
Alliance starting area. You didn't even
3:15
I don't think he even he showed up at
3:16
the Horde one. Why would he?
3:18
>> Yeah.
3:19
>> And so there's an element of that, I
3:22
think. And with Vulgen, I don't think
3:23
the time has come yet for there really
3:26
to be a moment for his family to sort of
3:29
pop up, if that makes sense. Cuz if you
3:31
think about it, Vulg has been at war for
3:34
as long as we've known him. Uh he
3:36
basically has been on the back foot for
3:38
as long as we've known him. Uh and then
3:40
he died being war chief uh you know in a
3:45
terrible fell infused accident uh or
3:49
wound that left him on that throne
3:52
decaying. And if he did care about his
3:55
family, there's a very good chance that
3:56
he would have just had his people report
3:57
that he died in battle. Not that he was
3:59
poisoned and is sitting in Ogar
4:02
dwindling into the nothingness that fell
4:04
does to you know those it burns from the
4:07
inside out. Cuz I mean I don't know
4:09
about you but I wouldn't want to wish
4:11
that up on my partner or if I had
4:13
children. My children seeing me burn
4:15
alive from the inside out with
4:17
prednatural green light and fire. That
4:19
doesn't sound exactly wholesome. Um,
4:23
that said, in the troll stuff that is
4:27
happening now,
4:29
there is a possibility, and we've talked
4:31
about this before, that Vulg, who is
4:33
being reborn as the Lowa of Kings, using
4:37
the leftover bits of uh Rison's power,
4:42
his family may become central to that at
4:45
some point, but right now, there just
4:48
hasn't been a reason to put them
4:49
forward. I'm sorry and then I'll let you
4:51
talk now, Matt. I didn't mean to cut you
4:53
off there.
4:54
>> Um, all I was going to say was I mean,
4:57
let's be upfront. We haven't gotten a
4:59
ton of dark spark spear dark spore dark
5:03
spear stories ever. Like, we just
5:05
they're very rare. Like, we got the
5:08
reclamation of of their, you know, the
5:10
whole they reclaimed their islands, but
5:13
but that was it for a long time. And
5:17
Vulggin got to be more pre prevalent
5:19
during the whole garage stuff, but then
5:22
the next expansion,
5:25
you know, he died in the opening and
5:28
it's like really I I and I to this day I
5:32
understand that they needed to get
5:33
Sylvanas up there to be the major
5:36
villain for the next expansion. I know
5:37
that's where they were going with it.
5:40
Um,
5:41
but yeah, it just it didn't feel
5:46
I don't know what word to use here. It
5:47
didn't feel like they really put a lot
5:48
of thought into this. The the the dark
5:50
spears have kind of been
5:53
even less
5:56
utilized than the gnomes are alliance
5:58
side. They are the least utilized in in
6:01
a pretty fair field of not utilized very
6:04
much people in the faction.
6:08
Um, blood elves get to pop up every now
6:11
and again and they're they're very
6:12
common as players, but they're never
6:15
tremendously important. The last time
6:16
the blood elves got to be much of
6:18
anything uh was when they almost left
6:21
the horde and then they were like, "No,
6:24
okay, never mind." Uh, the the orcs are
6:27
pretty prevalent. The the undead are
6:30
extremely prevalent. Uh, torren are are
6:33
slightly more than trolls. It just it
6:36
doesn't really feel like the dark sphere
6:39
have gotten a chance to shine. And it's
6:40
really hard to work Vulggin's family in
6:44
when Vulggin is barely getting seen. You
6:46
know, Vulg didn't have the time he
6:48
really should have. Uh I to this day
6:51
think that that was a mistake to have
6:52
Vulgun die in the opening. They could
6:54
have killed Vulgun off at the end of
6:56
Legion doing something heroic to save
6:58
the world. He didn't have to kill him
7:00
immediately and then, you know, Sylvanas
7:01
still would have been in charge. Um,
7:04
yeah. I don't know. I I've always felt
7:07
like to a certain degree the dark spear
7:09
have been the least utilized of all
7:12
horde races, and it does affect the
7:15
utilization of Vulggin's family. Uh, you
7:19
know, it it's just it's also quite
7:21
possible that Vulgian's wife is just a
7:23
normal troll.
7:25
It's not like she's not some kind of
7:26
like shadow hunter or, you know,
7:29
vengeance priest or anything. She's just
7:31
a troll who, you know, had a kid with
7:33
this guy that she loved and, you know,
7:35
doesn't isn't qualified to go off and do
7:38
battles. So, we're not going to see her
7:40
that often. Uh, and we're not going to
7:42
see her kids if they're not doing that.
7:44
Yanuku, the one we know about, he was an
7:47
envoy from his father. And he almost got
7:50
killed. Like, that that's it's a
7:52
dangerous life. And that guy, he nearly
7:55
got his head cut off by one of uh Oh,
7:58
bloody heck, what is the name of the
7:59
dude who was in at the angel islands in
8:01
the first place?
8:03
>> Oh yeah, I can't remember his name off
8:04
the top of my head either, but I know
8:05
like the main the main villain
8:08
essentially.
8:08
>> Yeah. Uh and
8:12
it's it's just, you know, I I remember
8:16
anch the cruel and Zanzel, by the way,
8:19
was the guy. Zanzo. Uh he was the guy
8:25
he he's trying to conquer everything and
8:28
it just it's
8:31
he barely made it. He barely lived
8:33
through it. Uh so you know maybe that's
8:37
just if the rest of the family there's
8:39
no narrative recently Joe pointed out
8:41
but also it just might be as simple as
8:43
they're not involved in this kind of
8:45
thing. Not everybody on Azeroth fights
8:47
the, you know, the forces of evil or
8:50
whatever. Uh there are, you know, for
8:52
every there's farmers. We don't get to
8:54
see any of them either. Uh it just feels
8:57
to me like it's a combination of utter
9:00
underutilization for the main character
9:03
that they were invented to support and
9:06
the faction that he's part of in the
9:08
first place, if that makes sense. It's
9:11
not It's not that they're not there's
9:12
not stories worth telling, but there's
9:14
just a lot of characters in World of
9:16
Warcraft at this point.
9:17
>> Yeah.
9:17
>> Um I mean, think about the fact that,
9:21
you know, Anduin has been a major front
9:24
and center character for a long time,
9:26
but what actual story have they done
9:28
with him? They did like one where he
9:30
finally got his mojo back in in the
9:33
previous, you know, expansion we just
9:35
got out of. Uh he isn't much in the war
9:38
within yet to my knowledge.
9:40
Um it just it you know there's just a
9:43
these are big stories with a lot of
9:44
characters and it's hard to juggle all
9:46
of them
9:48
>> and there's also some other elements
9:49
about it too which I think is
9:53
often times not thought about in terms
9:56
of story. Sometimes
9:59
some of these NPCs are smarter than
10:02
other NPCs.
10:04
If I was Vulgen,
10:06
I probably wouldn't tell anybody who my
10:09
my mate's name was. I probably wouldn't
10:12
have even uttered what my kids' names
10:14
were at any point in time because that's
10:18
leverage, right? How many villains have
10:21
we seen in, you know, Warcraft or any
10:24
other game or any other media that uses
10:28
loved ones as a bargaining chip to get
10:30
what they want because the good guy will
10:32
always take the the right action and not
10:35
want to sacrifice the life of somebody
10:37
they care about and won't be as ruthless
10:39
as the bad guy will. And then you get
10:42
these weird like repetitive sort of
10:46
scenes where we've we've seen it a
10:48
million times in in movies and comics
10:49
and everything, right? Vulg is a shadow
10:53
hunter. Vulgen is used to being
10:55
secretive, used to keeping to the
10:57
shadows, used to keeping a low profile
11:00
for the most part. Uh, probably.
11:03
>> It It doesn't make a lot of sense to
11:06
have your family out in public and then
11:08
step up to the then warchief of the
11:10
entire horde and be like, "I'll kill you
11:14
because that guy is going to look for
11:17
your kids." You know, he's Gash was not
11:21
above threatening people's families or
11:24
worse.
11:24
>> Oh, yeah.
11:26
>> So, the idea that, you know, Vulgian
11:28
might simply just not want people to
11:30
know that I was like, I am not telling
11:32
you which one of these is my wife. Good
11:35
luck. You know, I I I definitely
11:39
Yeah, that there's a there's a certain
11:41
amount of Yeah, that makes sense to
11:42
this. The Vulg was never a character who
11:44
went around telling you his heart. Like
11:47
he kept stuff to himself
11:50
for a good reason.
11:52
You know, he didn't want to risk this.
11:55
He saw what happened to his dad.
11:58
You know, he lost his father when he was
12:00
still a fairly young troll and he was
12:03
pushed into being the head of the dark
12:05
spears at a time where they were coming
12:07
out of slavery.
12:09
>> Yeah.
12:09
>> You know, and then when they got there,
12:11
Zanzo comes along and takes over their
12:13
home islands that they just got. Like I
12:16
could see him being like, "Nope, nope,
12:19
nope, nope, nope, nope. You guys stay in
12:22
the darkness. Stay shadowed. I don't
12:24
want anyone to know you. my oldest son.
12:26
I guess he can be an envoy, but even
12:28
then that's not a great idea. I'm just
12:30
allowing it because I got to make some
12:31
presence here. Yeah. So, I totally think
12:34
Joe's at a point there. That makes a lot
12:35
of sense. Yeah. And it's just something
12:37
to keep in mind because again,
12:38
narratively, if it makes sense for us to
12:41
see them, we will. Um, I trust the
12:44
people that are writing that aspect of
12:47
the story because I am convinced that it
12:49
is coming at some point relatively soon.
12:51
Uh, and I believe that they will have at
12:54
least some homecoming planned for Vulg
12:58
at some point. It's not a character that
13:00
I think you don't do a homecoming for.
13:04
And what that looks like may change
13:06
that. Maybe us, you know, like him
13:09
coming back and us being the first ones
13:10
to see him and then us, you know, going
13:13
to find his his family and him, you
13:16
know, like, "Hey, I'm back. By the way,
13:18
uh, by the way, I'm totally not mortal.
13:20
I'm a lowa now. So that's cool for you
13:24
guys. Uh but it also might be another
13:26
thing where now he's a lowa. Uh now he's
13:29
got a bigger target on his back and he
13:30
may just also be like, "Nope, I'm here
13:32
to do a job. They understood what was
13:34
going to happen. They're going to move
13:35
on with their lives and I'm going to be
13:36
happy knowing they're good." So we'll
13:39
see. But I I I
13:41
suspect there may be elements of his
13:43
family or at the very least the dark
13:46
spear trolls when Vulgun comes back
13:50
because again dark spear like Matt
13:52
pointed out they're they're not utilized
13:55
often if at all. uh they rarely are
14:00
present in the story and with the way
14:02
that the current story's been going
14:04
there is an angle for them to be brought
14:06
back in here I think as well cuz uh
14:10
Zakan Zappy boy is present um we do see
14:16
you know a representation of all of the
14:18
trolls at least here in some monochrome
14:20
or at least not all of them but a good
14:22
chunk of the major ones but there's an
14:24
avenue for what we literally did with
14:26
the elves at the beginning of this
14:28
expansion to start swinging around to
14:31
the trolls and start pulling the dark
14:33
spear in and then start pulling in some
14:37
of the others that we now know aren't
14:40
necessarily purely evil. They are
14:43
offshoots of the, you know, Ammani
14:46
tribes or, you know, the other tribes
14:48
that have sort of spread to the four
14:50
corners of Azeroth that have either been
14:54
in some cases lied to, left to fend for
14:58
themselves, and took desperate actions.
15:00
Like there's a lot of that that you get
15:01
to talking with with the lows uh in this
15:04
expansion about which I think may inform
15:06
some other stuff to come in the future
15:08
and that might be a whole other topic
15:10
for when we do an entire troll ccentric
15:12
episode because I have a feeling that's
15:14
going to be coming really soon.
15:16
So we'll see. But I do suspect that
15:18
we'll probably get some more Dark Spear
15:19
stuff probably right around the time
15:21
that Vulgun comes back because not only
15:24
will he be the Lo of the Kings, he'll
15:26
likely be the low of Dark Spear as well
15:28
cuz well, it would make sense.
15:32
All right, we're going to move on to
15:34
another question here. Uh, and this one
15:37
comes from Scribbly, uh, who has quite a
15:40
number of questions. And thank you,
15:41
Scribbly. Uh, as I was pursuing
15:44
Shadowlands timewalking rewards, I saw
15:47
that there is a long sword of the first
15:49
ones, and it had me thinking. We've
15:52
talked about the first ones before, but
15:54
what do we concretely know in game about
15:56
the first ones?
15:58
So, the short version is
16:01
a whole lot of nothing.
16:03
>> Yeah, almost nothing. [laughter]
16:06
I don't You guys probably won't remember
16:08
this. I don't know if Joe will or not,
16:09
but I want you to imagine there's a a a
16:12
man in front of a giant wheel going and
16:15
what DO THEY WIN? NOTHING.
16:17
>> ABSOLUTELY.
16:18
>> Absolutely nothing.
16:20
>> UHF classic movie. You all should you
16:22
should watch it.
16:23
>> But that's I mean we know that the first
16:25
ones are it's a it's a name beings far
16:29
more, you know, far older and more
16:31
powerful than us call beings that may
16:33
have created the universe and them. Uh,
16:36
we know it's related to, for example,
16:39
the tomb of the first ones that we saw
16:41
at the end of Shadowlands.
16:42
>> Sebel, but yes,
16:43
>> Sebel. Yeah, Sebur are the first ones.
16:45
Uh, we know that it's they it's
16:47
potentially related to all the Zeriths
16:50
and whatever those are. Like we went to
16:52
we went to Zerith Mortise, but we don't
16:54
we've never been to another one. We've
16:56
heard Zerith Ortis mentioned. Uh, we
16:58
haven't heard any others mentioned yet,
17:00
but they may be more. Um, it's just, you
17:03
know, it's there's a lot of supposition
17:06
and half statements, but there's not a
17:08
lot of straight up, oh, here's what the
17:10
first ones are. Here's what they were
17:11
doing. Here's their plan. No, it's we
17:14
love them because, you know, we can we
17:16
can just go because there's nothing out
17:20
there to contradict us. Yeah, this is
17:22
this is a lot like and and people may
17:25
not remember this or they may not have
17:26
been playing or involved in the game
17:29
when this was a thing, but there was a
17:31
point where this was the Titans.
17:33
There were mentions of them. There were
17:36
some rudimentary things that the game
17:38
would explain and I mean I'm and explain
17:42
is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
17:44
uh they would it would mention in a
17:46
roundabout way and a lot of that stuff
17:49
that was put in the books uh the RPG the
17:52
the manual that still lives in my my
17:54
desk by the way um titans were this big
17:58
enigmatic thing that weren't defined
18:02
right they were they were gods they were
18:04
they were referred to as a pantheon
18:06
literally and that was really about it
18:08
um
18:10
so when you get further down the
18:13
Now, the Titans get more involved. They
18:15
become explanation for a lot of things
18:17
uh that, you know, some people would
18:19
call it a retcon, but also it's just
18:22
filling in blanks that we didn't have
18:23
because literally those the the gaps in
18:26
WoW's story were wide enough that you
18:29
could drive a planet through it for a
18:31
very long time. And it was just
18:35
basically the cool ideas of a D&D
18:38
campaign put into this type of world.
18:41
And so a lot of stuff didn't make a lot
18:43
of sense and the Titans were just one of
18:46
those things. But again, they got more
18:47
defined as time moved on. They became
18:50
more solid. They became more integral to
18:51
the story. And they became this thing
18:54
that was so much more than what they
18:55
were originally uh con as far as I'm
18:58
concerned conceived of. And I will be
19:00
hardressed to be convinced otherwise.
19:03
The first ones were kind of Go ahead.
19:05
>> Yeah. It's also worth mentioning that
19:07
even as fleshed out as they are now
19:09
compared to where they were, there's a
19:12
lot we do not know about what's going on
19:16
with the Titans. We don't even know if
19:18
they are actually dead. We know that
19:21
their physical forms were destroyed and
19:22
their souls thrown across the universe
19:25
by Norgan, but we don't know what that
19:28
means for them because how do you even
19:31
find out? Like
19:33
>> we still have no idea what they are. And
19:34
we've we've we've slain one and fought
19:37
several. So like
19:39
>> Yeah. And we still have no no clue.
19:41
>> Uh so we we don't even know if Argus is
19:44
still going to stick around in the
19:45
Shadowlands that he wasn't supposed to
19:46
go to in the first place. There's just
19:48
there's a ton we don't know about them.
19:50
And they've been on and off the screen
19:52
for the entirety of World of Warcraft's
19:54
existence. The first ones just got
19:57
[snorts] mentioned in Shadowlands.
20:00
And every time they've been mentioned
20:01
since, it's just like, oh, the first
20:03
ones. And then that's it. That's the,
20:07
you know, Odin's like, don't tell anyone
20:09
about the first ones. Like, what? What
20:11
aren't we telling them, sir? Any chance
20:14
you could inform us? No. If I told you
20:16
what not to tell people, those people
20:18
would know what I'm telling you not to
20:19
tell them
20:21
because this is, you know, to break the
20:23
fourth wall. I'm a character in a video
20:25
game. Uh, so yeah, the first ones are
20:30
in that they they kind of fill the role
20:33
the Titans used to fill of being
20:35
mysterious
20:36
>> and therefore you can do practically
20:38
anything with them. Like you couldn't
20:40
you could have in the past created
20:43
>> if writing teams had decided they could
20:44
have created this whole bit where the
20:46
Titans had a gigantic factory built
20:48
under um, you know, say Azeroth like the
20:52
continent,
20:53
>> you know, like something called the
20:54
engine of the makers, you know, you
20:55
never know.
20:55
>> Yeah. But you could have written that
20:58
and then said babies come out of it.
21:01
>> Yep.
21:02
>> This is where babies come from. And once
21:04
you've made it something else, and they
21:06
did, they made a different engine where
21:09
it's where, you know, rocky rocky
21:11
constructs come from that were then
21:14
descended from. Now they can't say it
21:16
also makes babies cuz people be like,
21:19
"What?" Like there's one the more you
21:22
establish you you have to accept when
21:24
you establish that you're giving things
21:25
up
21:27
>> you know and that's one of the reasons
21:28
why I think there's a certain amount of
21:30
movement towards making the Titans
21:32
more antagonistic and showing that
21:34
they're not perfect because you need to
21:37
be able to establish like motivations
21:40
for things like Titans can't be perfect
21:43
and wonderful all the time because then
21:46
we never have to worry about doing what
21:48
they want us to too. And that that's not
21:51
that's not there's no conflict there.
21:54
But you want there to be conflict when
21:55
you're interacting with a force that is
21:58
simultaneously amongst the most powerful
22:00
things to exist and also
22:04
really convinced that it's right
22:07
at all times. Every Titan and Titan
22:09
construct always thinks they're right.
22:12
And even when they're arguing with each
22:13
other, both of them think they're right.
22:16
like um Odin took his ball and went home
22:19
because he was so convinced he was right
22:21
that Tier shouldn't be making dragons
22:22
into these aspects. Uh meanwhile, Tier
22:26
is like, "I'm making dragons into
22:27
aspects. I don't care what you say."
22:29
That's that's I think that's the way the
22:32
Titans are being shown to be fallible in
22:34
that they are never willing to accept
22:37
that they're wrong. here was so willing
22:41
to keep so convinced he was right that
22:43
he made Gacron and it was like a speed
22:46
bump to him
22:48
not in terms of difficulty in terms of
22:50
he didn't even mentally consider maybe I
22:52
shouldn't be trying to infuse the Titans
22:54
powers into random things
22:57
maybe there's a problem there didn't
22:59
even consider it now granted we know
23:01
that Gacron was in part because of Yag
23:04
Shiron
23:05
but you know he didn't know that that
23:08
could weapon and he should have. So
23:12
there's there's a lot to it in terms of
23:14
the what they're doing with the Titans,
23:15
but I think the first ones have
23:16
therefore moved into the role of you
23:19
have no idea what we're about.
23:22
>> Yeah. And and that in enigmatic sort of
23:25
pantheon of things now becomes and if
23:28
you really think about it, it's become a
23:30
crux of an era of the story that we
23:33
didn't have before because now even the
23:36
Titans are tied up in that, right?
23:37
Because now there's and we've had
23:38
several episodes of this. We've had
23:40
several spec pieces of speculation.
23:43
We've had a ton of, you know, thoughts
23:48
where
23:50
the first ones created everything. And
23:52
at some point, we posited that that also
23:54
included the Titans.
23:57
But that sort of all ties into this this
24:00
last Titan saga. What was the purpose of
24:02
the Azeriths? How is this all going to
24:04
be flowing back? Why? You know, why do
24:06
titans exist in the first place? You
24:08
know, we have this this revelation that
24:11
there's going to be this big great big
24:12
lie and we've already like uncovered
24:16
a dozen of them because Titans, like
24:18
Matt said, are so certain that they're
24:20
right, that they're just going to steam
24:21
ahead.
24:23
They're not necessarily lying. They just
24:26
don't see anything but one path forward
24:29
by design potentially. And now the first
24:32
ones are this big enigmatic force that
24:36
supposedly ordered the universe,
24:38
supposedly had this workshop where they
24:40
were able to set this mantle of power
24:43
onto a robotic frame that looks like it
24:45
was made out of planets and then set it
24:48
into motion as the pantheon of death. Uh
24:51
but they only made four of them.
24:54
Five of them. like you there's so much
24:56
unknown about it and that also
24:59
represents infinite possibility because
25:01
then as you come to other aspects of the
25:04
story now you have something that you
25:06
can then take a thread from it and work
25:08
it into that fabric and then when
25:11
something else comes along that needs a
25:13
hook, you can take another piece of that
25:14
thread from the first ones and tie it
25:18
into the fabric of whatever story you're
25:19
telling. And it has that infinite
25:21
possibility until it gets to a point
25:23
where it becomes so defined like the
25:25
Titans and even as Matt pointed out even
25:27
as defined as they are they're still not
25:29
totally defined that you back yourself
25:32
into corners or you start limiting
25:34
yourself into that potential. You start
25:37
spending the potential right and it
25:40
becomes realized things. then that
25:43
threat of it, that looiness, that that
25:46
sort of nebulous aspect of them gets
25:50
diminished over time. That's just the
25:52
nature of creation. Think about it in
25:55
terms of and and I'll talk about this
25:57
here because I think it's a really good
25:59
example uh despite the fact that I do
26:01
not care for the author. Harry Potter.
26:04
Voldemort is a enigmatic,
26:07
mysterious boogeyman in the dark for a
26:10
lot of the the the initial story. You
26:14
know that he was this evil guy that did
26:15
a whole bunch of evil things, but like
26:18
the real depth of it doesn't reveal
26:20
itself at first and then other things
26:23
that happen start getting tied to it. He
26:25
becomes less nebulous as this happens.
26:29
and he becomes more defined and more
26:31
defined and more defined until he is a
26:34
very real and solid thing that has one
26:37
aspect. So as something is again
26:40
created, the more you start tying to it,
26:43
the the less its potential becomes
26:45
because you're spending that as if it
26:47
was money. You're spending it as if it
26:48
was capital to develop around it. So
26:51
that's the way I view the first ones.
26:53
Heck, that's the way I view the the
26:55
Titans. And it's just it's comic book
26:58
101 to me. And I don't know if Matt will
27:00
agree with me on that one,
27:01
>> but
27:01
>> I mean it's certainly something, you
27:03
know, if you've ever read a Jack Kirby
27:04
comic, you know, Eternals or the New
27:07
Gods. Yeah. You know where we're going
27:09
with this. Uh there's always that
27:12
there's always forces beyond and then
27:14
there's forces beyond those forces and
27:16
then you get like, you know, um you let
27:19
Steve Ditco basically do all the writing
27:21
and art for Doctor Strange for a while
27:23
and things get real weird. But yeah,
27:26
there's always something up above it.
27:27
And the higher up they get, the less the
27:31
less they are characters and the more
27:32
they are plot devices.
27:34
Like the Living Tribunal is slightly
27:37
more personified than than Infinity is
27:39
or or Eternity or any of them. But it's
27:42
still basically just this force of
27:45
judgment. Literally, it's judgment.
27:48
>> Yeah. The the the the One Above All in
27:50
Marvel is a really good example of that,
27:51
too. The One Above All was not defined
27:53
until what, the last 10 years when we
27:55
did the Immortal Hulk run.
27:57
>> Yeah. And it's still basically it was
28:00
originally just a way to get a Jack
28:01
Kirby cameo into a comic and to fix
28:04
something the previous writer did that
28:07
they wanted to fix and they didn't have
28:09
any way to fix it except to literally
28:11
just have God fix it.
28:13
And then, you know, we got the immortal
28:15
Hulk run where it it both the one above
28:18
all and the one below all get like
28:21
explained and tied into everything we've
28:24
seen already. And it's it's almost like
28:27
things there's like axes within axes of
28:30
these kind of forces that they are
28:33
simultaneously characters, but they're
28:34
also really plot devices. Um, the one
28:37
above all, the fact that it even had a
28:40
one below all and that that one below
28:42
all is the Hulk of God essentially.
28:46
It It's a nice idea, but it didn't exist
28:50
for the majority of Marvel's run, you
28:52
know, since the 60s. And those stories
28:55
didn't need it.
28:57
But what Al Yuming wrote needed it. And
29:00
so it exists because he needed it. And
29:05
as long as the stories work, you don't
29:06
have to worry about it. Like it doesn't
29:08
matter how defined they are or not as
29:11
long as they do their job for the story.
29:13
So
29:13
>> yeah. Yeah. And and I think it's weird
29:15
for me to to say this maybe as a a
29:17
purveyor of a lore-based podcast where
29:19
we tend to spend a lot of time
29:20
speculating. There are certain aspects
29:23
of the game that are just better
29:27
that you sit back and enjoy the ride and
29:31
dig less into them. So,
29:35
>> I mean, I would say this. I don't think
29:36
that it's necessarily you dig less into
29:38
them, but you have to be prepared for
29:40
what you're speculating to just be your
29:42
speculation
29:44
because you don't know what some writer
29:46
in 20 years or 10 years or 5 years is
29:49
going to do with it. And it might not be
29:52
something you'd ever considered and it
29:53
may change your view of the thing. And
29:55
you just have to be willing to roll with
29:56
it.
29:57
>> Yeah.
29:58
>> No.
29:58
>> Yeah. There there's an aspect of just
30:02
like you said, rolling with it, just
30:04
being chill and like going along for the
30:06
ride that that makes a big difference in
30:10
like stuff like this. Or at least that's
30:12
the way I I view it. And I think the
30:14
first ones are one of those things where
30:17
they're going to be an explanation or an
30:20
excuse or to blame for things to come.
30:24
And instead of, you know, worrying about
30:26
that now, just enjoy the ride till we
30:28
get there. Like, we're going to find the
30:30
tie between the First Ones and the
30:32
Devourers, uh, we're going to find the
30:34
the tie between them and the Titans.
30:36
Like, a bunch of that is just going to
30:39
it's going to organically happen. And
30:42
until that does, I enjoy them being
30:45
these nebulous uh, all omnisient
30:48
potential beings of the universe or
30:50
cosmos.
30:53
But hopefully that answers your question
30:54
or doesn't. I don't know. But either
30:56
way, I hope you enjoyed it. We're going
30:57
to move on to the next one. Uh, and this
31:00
is a little bit of a longer one also
31:02
from Scribbly, but I like it and I think
31:04
we're going to talk about it because
31:06
it's funny. Um, this is the what they
31:10
call what will it take? Uh, as far as
31:14
their questions go, what will it take
31:15
for you to finally apologize for the
31:17
Fandrel Fandrell Stagghelm slander? I've
31:21
been going back through your entire
31:22
>> dude. No, I gotta interrupt you. Point
31:25
to one place where I've slandered him
31:28
or lieled him since often we write
31:31
things. So, go ahead. Find places where
31:33
I've either slandered or lieled him.
31:36
Go ahead. Keep going. [laughter]
31:39
Matt getting to where I was going to go
31:40
to anyway. Um, I've been going back
31:42
through your entire and very beloved
31:43
backlog catalog. Thank you. Uh, when I
31:46
reached episode 178, is Kelazad the real
31:48
villain of Shadowlands? And what do I
31:50
hear but the original reforester himself
31:52
catching strays again. My boy was out
31:54
there doing the grunt work of actually
31:56
planting acorns to suck the void out of
31:58
Azeroth while Mr. Sleepy took a long
32:01
long lunch. Anyway, here we are in
32:03
midnight learning that there was some
32:05
sort of uh goddess hanging out in the
32:07
roots and world trees have been
32:08
important for dealing with void
32:10
corruption. Old Mr. Fandrol's tree
32:12
obsession doesn't seem so quite foolish
32:13
now, does it? Uh unrelated, what is it
32:16
we've actually learned in her? I've had
32:18
uh grad school and work and I just can't
32:20
keep up. I feel you on that. Life is
32:24
busy. So, two parts to your questions.
32:27
One, we don't
32:30
like we don't bad talk Fandrel, but the
32:34
point is he is a villain. That was his
32:37
arc. That's the way he is written. And
32:40
when we're talking about Yeah.
32:42
>> Go ahead. I I think it's important to
32:44
say that do I sympathize with Fandal
32:46
Stagghelm sometimes? Yes.
32:48
>> At the beginning, yes.
32:50
>> Yeah. At the beginning, like his the
32:52
thing that happened to his son, awful.
32:55
The fact that he his daughter-in-law
32:58
lost her child. Yeah. That's awful. But
33:02
the bit where they made like a fire
33:04
druid organization and tried to just
33:06
murder everybody.
33:07
>> Yeah. To burn Azeroth to ash.
33:09
>> Yeah. Then I lost a lot of sympathy uh
33:12
for both her and him. Also, the thing
33:14
about FanDuel is this. I'm not saying
33:17
the original attempting to plan to plot
33:19
new world trees was necessarily a bad
33:23
idea, although clearly he didn't care if
33:27
he was doing it with the proper
33:30
assistance. And as a result, a lot of
33:33
these world trees didn't work. Like um
33:36
we go to Northrand and we stumble upon
33:38
the first one that just broke because it
33:40
wasn't ready. And
33:41
>> you mean the one that has to pull a
33:42
serite in the middle of it driving all
33:44
the fearbog insane? That one?
33:45
>> Yeah,
33:46
>> that one. Yeah.
33:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
33:48
>> The problem with Fandel is like a lot of
33:50
people he he doesn't have patience.
33:53
>> We his grief his grief makes him take
33:55
shortcuts.
33:56
>> Yeah. And it's not I don't want to say
33:58
it's his fault like that he lost all
34:01
that but I think to a certain degree the
34:04
fact that
34:06
and keep in mind this was something that
34:07
he was forced to do. Malfurion was told
34:11
that if you want this bargain to make
34:13
these world trees and help you know save
34:15
your world you need to be sleeping in
34:17
the in the Emerald Dream for extended
34:19
periods of time. That's the deal. That's
34:22
the price.
34:24
>> Angel didn't want to pay that price.
34:27
like he just wanted more world trees and
34:29
didn't care how he got them. And
34:35
again, I'm trying not to be like I don't
34:36
want to slag on the man. Uh but he
34:39
became the puppet of not one but
34:42
multiple evil forces during the time
34:44
that he was running around essentially
34:47
trying to usurp Tonda and keep Malfurian
34:51
asleep because let's not forget that's
34:54
what he was doing and he was sending us
34:57
to get the moral grain he needed to do
34:59
it.
35:00
>> Yeah.
35:00
>> He was poisoning his his his mentor.
35:03
>> People People forget that that's what
35:05
the moral grain was used for. Yeah, the
35:07
moral grain was was there to keep keep
35:10
Malfurion in his eternal slumber past
35:12
the point
35:13
>> and the rest of the druids of the claw,
35:14
too. Not just not just Malfurion.
35:17
>> Yeah.
35:19
And as a result of this, I mean, Zavius
35:24
grafted himself to Teldrasil and that's
35:27
why it was infested with things that
35:29
shouldn't be there. Now, think about
35:32
that. Do do you honestly think that at
35:35
any point it's a good idea to graft the
35:38
insane servant of the old gods onto your
35:42
world tree?
35:44
But he just did it because well it'll
35:47
make the tree grow faster and we need
35:48
the tree to grow faster.
35:52
Like no no you don't. You're you're an
35:55
elf. Even without the the immortality
35:58
granted by the world tree with Nordic's
36:02
boon gone, elves live a very long time.
36:07
Look at the the blood elves have had two
36:09
kings, you know, when they were the high
36:12
elves. They they went through two kings
36:16
>> in that time.
36:18
>> Yeah.
36:20
>> It's just you have time, Fandrol. you
36:24
you do not have to immediately rush a
36:26
new world tree in.
36:27
>> Yeah. And again, I want to make sure
36:28
that it's clear that like it's just the
36:30
way he is written that his character is
36:33
is so consumed by his grief that he is
36:36
taken advantage of, but he is very much
36:38
a villain. It is just the the raw fact
36:42
of it. Now,
36:43
>> he does things that we have to stop.
36:46
>> You know, it's not that, you know, we
36:47
we're like sitting here going, "Fandrol
36:49
is a moron." It's like, no.
36:51
Unfortunately, Fandrel has once again
36:52
made a pact with a power he shouldn't
36:54
have, and we have to go in and stop him
36:56
again. Yeah. And and the other aspect of
36:59
the your question here involves the root
37:01
system of the world trees. Fandrol had
37:04
no idea about that. None of them did.
37:08
And that's something we're learning
37:10
about right now is that that cradle
37:13
was likely put in place by the first
37:17
hariner. But whoever made the pilgrimage
37:20
below ground who who heard the call of
37:24
the goddess uh and went there and
37:27
wrapped the roots around her. That is
37:31
the impression that I get. And I may be
37:33
wrong. I mean, it's not exactly laid out
37:36
yet because we're still digging through
37:37
it. But
37:38
>> there's certainly an implication.
37:40
>> There's an implication because that is
37:41
not that is not a natural growth, nor is
37:43
it something that was I think intended.
37:46
>> Go ahead, Matt.
37:50
>> I was just backing you up, man. I was
37:52
like, yeah, [laughter] there's an
37:52
implication. I I don't I don't know
37:55
what's coming, but I know I
37:59
certain things were found out. I I do we
38:02
are they considered spoilers at this
38:03
point? Should we be careful?
38:05
>> I don't want to spoil anything for
38:07
people. I think I think at this point we
38:09
can put a general spoiler for up to the
38:12
current level of questing or the current
38:14
content of questing. I think that's
38:16
sufficient for now.
38:18
>> Okay. So, uh I'm going to wait a couple
38:21
seconds. Y'all can jump forward some and
38:24
avoid this. But in in the most recent
38:27
cinematic we've seen, um, something is
38:30
revealed that I don't think anybody who
38:32
watches this show or listens to us talk
38:35
or us were surprised by that the trolls
38:38
and and elves are finally accepted as
38:42
all descended from the hariner. The
38:45
hariner
38:45
>> being a catchall term at this point.
38:47
>> Yeah. Mhm. And so
38:51
yeah, like is anyone shocked? No. We all
38:54
kind of saw it coming, but it's never
38:56
been confirmed before. Fandrol didn't
38:58
know this. Fandel did not know that
39:02
there was a group of proto elves who
39:04
were also proto trolls who went
39:06
underground and spoke to what might have
39:09
been Azeroth's world soul and bound the
39:13
you know what he was doing might have
39:14
been interfering with what they were
39:17
trying to do because they were trying to
39:19
use the world trees the original ones as
39:22
a as a nexus to protect the child in the
39:26
bower and we know already that there was
39:29
a tree before any of the world trees.
39:32
>> Mhm.
39:33
>> And that tree got destroyed.
39:37
It got destroyed by who? Our our old
39:40
friend, you know, Aman Thu.
39:43
Um
39:44
>> I don't like this tree. Be gone.
39:47
>> And think about what that means. Like to
39:50
this day, I keep saying this, the aisle
39:52
of Dorne to me looks like the like a
39:54
stump.
39:54
>> Yeah. Uh spec specifically where the
39:57
aviary is. Yep.
39:58
>> Yeah. Looks like a big old tree stump.
40:00
>> I said the same thing.
40:02
>> Yeah,
40:03
I'm gonna just to say I might have
40:05
gotten it from Joe because I I do
40:07
remember him saying that. Um but the
40:10
point being we don't know we know like
40:13
we with everything we find out about
40:16
this whole situation there's becomes
40:18
it's like it's like um Hermes Conrad and
40:21
Futurama that just raises further
40:23
questions like every time this whole
40:26
story which has been going since dragon
40:28
flight now in terms of like world trees
40:31
and Aloon and the Titans and you know
40:34
what what happened to the the first tree
40:36
which was descended from Ganier. here.
40:38
Uh, all of that has been building and
40:41
coming together and we keep finding out
40:43
more, but the more we find out, the more
40:45
we're like, and that means what? And
40:47
we're not going to find out everything.
40:50
I don't even think we're going to find
40:51
out everything in The Last Titan or the
40:53
Final Titan. It's the last Titan, right?
40:55
Calling that. Yeah.
40:57
>> Yeah. I don't think we're going to find
40:59
everything out um even then. But enough
41:02
has been put forward that we're at this
41:04
point looking at it going it did Fandrol
41:07
Stagghelm understand a few things that
41:09
we didn't may not have given him credit
41:10
for. Yeah. I'll I'll let you I'll I'll
41:13
admit to that. Did he possibly
41:17
not understand enough? Absolutely.
41:19
Because I know he didn't know that this
41:22
whole existence was like he didn't know
41:24
that this was even down there. Nobody
41:27
did on the surface.
41:30
So, and the fact that trolls in a way
41:33
you have to if you think about the fact
41:34
that trolls have essentially been cut
41:36
off from half of this this entire time
41:40
even the Xandelari
41:42
who had Lowa who you know you originally
41:45
look at what is Xand now Xandelari
41:46
Island which used to just be a mountain
41:48
it was like the exact same thing as Hyel
41:52
except halfway around the world from it
41:56
and they had they both had equivalent of
41:59
low on them. The ancients and the lowa
42:01
are very similar. Um there's just this
42:04
whole time that this whole spiritual
42:06
aspect of it was not accessible by
42:09
trolls.
42:10
>> Mhm.
42:11
>> And in a way you have to wonder is that
42:14
a loss?
42:16
Like did did the night elves when they
42:19
became the night elves did they lose
42:21
something by not having access to the
42:25
lowa that were accessible by the trolls?
42:28
like all of Azeroth
42:30
>> which again reminder just just quickly
42:31
reminder that Loa are basically wild
42:33
gods.
42:34
>> Yeah, they're almost exactly the same
42:36
thing if some some are the same thing.
42:40
Uh others have kind of like got
42:42
themselves in there and there's a
42:44
certain amount of transactionality about
42:46
those lowa. Um but we even now we don't
42:49
know like Rison was a devil sore you
42:54
know imagine a devil sore god like how
42:59
old was this thing
43:01
what was really going Rison was not at
43:04
all like a a single-minded creature
43:07
but he was like one of the oldest
43:09
godlike wild godlike forces we've ever
43:11
seen
43:13
there's just there's so much about this
43:15
we don't really know or understand. But
43:17
Fandrol, he never stopped to look at
43:20
what he should actually be doing. When
43:22
he made Teldrasil, he did it knowing. He
43:25
just he just assumed that they'd use it
43:28
to recreate the Elven immortality.
43:31
He just assumed that. He didn't even ask
43:32
them. Like the ancients were like, you
43:35
know, not the ancients, the aspects were
43:36
like, uh, no, that was a specific
43:39
bargain. That bargain is over. We're not
43:42
we're not just we don't just exist to to
43:43
dole out immortal im immortality trees.
43:46
That's not what this was. And keep in
43:50
mind again that that Nordrasil, the one
43:52
that they did that for was created
43:54
specifically to cap the well of eternity
43:59
because they didn't want the new well of
44:00
eternity drawing attention. There were
44:04
like living world trees way older than
44:06
Nordrasil.
44:08
There's there's one currently uh in the
44:10
in the uh
44:13
oh boy heck I can't remember the name of
44:14
the zone sheldazar. Yeah, Sheldazar. Uh
44:18
there's the there's one right there.
44:19
That's a that's a world tree. That world
44:22
tree is also corrupted by Xavius. Um so
44:25
you can kind of see the problem. World
44:27
trees are enimical to the void. Yes. And
44:31
as a result, the void destroys them
44:33
whenever it can.
44:36
And so Fandel didn't take the time to
44:39
and if he had done so maybe Telus
44:41
wouldn't have gotten burned down
44:43
although it's still there and it might
44:45
regrow. Um but regardless
44:48
yeah I I just it's not that FanDuel's
44:50
like you know doesn't ever have a point
44:53
or is just always a cartoonish super
44:55
villain. I feel like they actually gave
44:57
Fandrel a very good motivation that's
44:59
very easy to understand.
45:01
>> Yeah. In a lot of ways him him being a
45:03
villain makes sense,
45:05
>> right? Unlike a lot of the other random
45:08
mustache twirling villains we've had
45:10
over the course of WoW's, you know, 20
45:14
some odd year career here, it it is
45:17
understandable. It is a very human
45:21
thing that happens to him. Something
45:22
that we can relate to. Terrible grief
45:25
causes him to make terrible decisions.
45:28
um you know and and and once he's in he
45:33
can't see the forest or the trees and
45:35
then he's made to be the villain by
45:38
those around him even more and so he
45:40
just kind of leans into the skid. Um so
45:44
like it's it's understandable and again
45:48
I'm never going to say that
45:51
he's a good guy uh because he's not
45:54
written that way. He does terrible
45:56
things. But we're not stating anything
45:59
other than fact of what has happened to
46:01
him. We're not saying that he's like,
46:03
you know, he's killing Tuscar babies by
46:06
drowning them or anything like that. Um
46:08
that I would
46:09
>> There's been any scenes of that. Yeah.
46:10
No, Joe would be at his house.
46:12
>> Yeah.
46:13
>> He'd find a way. He'd literally go to a
46:16
he'd go to some programmer's house and
46:17
be like, "You are going to program me
46:18
into this game right now."
46:20
>> Yep. 100%.
46:22
Uh, and as far as the other part of your
46:24
question, which is what is it we've
46:26
actually learned in Hariner? It's again
46:30
going back to the the spoiler stuff from
46:32
from Matt. We've learned more about
46:37
the relation between the heraneer, the
46:39
trolls, and the elves, and that there is
46:42
a common ancestor among them. We've
46:45
learned that they were around or present
46:48
during the Ammani conflict. That, you
46:50
know, was basically why they they
46:53
summoned the snake Lowa. And I'm air
46:55
quoting that because um we still don't
46:58
know exactly what she is quite yet.
47:02
Uh to fight off the old god forces. Uh,
47:06
and then we've learned that
47:09
that's pretty much it. And that they've
47:11
been underground so long and so many
47:14
generations have come and gone because
47:16
unlike the other two, and I don't know
47:17
if you picked up on this, Matt, it
47:20
doesn't seem like they're ageless or
47:23
eternal.
47:24
>> No, it does not. Um, that's actually one
47:27
of the things that I found really
47:28
surprising
47:29
>> and then I thought about it and I'm
47:31
like, the trolls aren't ageless or
47:34
turtle. They they regenerate, but they
47:37
don't like they don't live super long.
47:40
Um,
47:41
>> they live a mortal lifetime.
47:43
>> Yeah, elves live longer because as far
47:47
as we can tell, even even before any
47:51
bargains were made or anything like
47:52
that, they were exposed to the original
47:55
Well of Eternity,
47:56
>> you know, the the unfettered uh
47:58
Azerothian energy of blood.
48:01
>> Yeah. And it it changed them much as
48:05
we've seen other peoples be changed by
48:07
similar experiences. The one that always
48:09
comes to mind for me are the fish people
48:13
from.
48:15
>> Yeah. The Genu were murlocs who were
48:17
exposed to the waters of the uh
48:20
>> the veil
48:20
>> the veil of eternal summer. And those
48:23
waters were infused with the essence of
48:25
Amenthul.
48:28
Amul being a Titan
48:31
perview is time.
48:33
>> Yeah. The world soul of Azeroth is the
48:36
world soul of an entity that has been
48:38
exposed to every cosmic force
48:40
simultaneously.
48:44
So, I don't know
48:47
how, you know, we we don't know exactly
48:48
how it works, but we do know that it
48:51
seems that the the extended lifespans of
48:54
elves comes from that initial change and
48:57
it's gone to every subgroup of elves
49:00
because they all come from the original
49:02
Calderai.
49:03
>> Yep.
49:04
>> Who were the ones who were the dark
49:06
trolls who were exposed to the Well of
49:08
Eternity.
49:10
And that's
49:13
I I think that's actually really
49:15
interesting because it is that b that
49:18
split
49:20
that makes this whole thing kind of
49:22
tragic because it's they've been killing
49:24
each other for so long that they don't
49:28
even recognize each other anymore.
49:31
Um Sjon uh he's not sorry Vuljon. It's
49:35
Vjon, right?
49:36
>> Vulgun. I keep wanting to call him vulg
49:38
and it's like no no it's not vulg it's
49:41
vulg but
49:43
>> yeah he even says you know do you know
49:46
anything of my people's history and the
49:48
haron are like yeah and we can learn
49:51
more we can tell you things we can work
49:54
together on this and I I'm hoping that
49:58
by the end
50:00
>> zuljon okay yeah uh I'm hoping by the
50:04
end of this expansion that we get a
50:07
place where it's not just elves anymore,
50:09
but it's elves and trolls
50:11
recognizing each other as people. Not I
50:16
don't I think it's too far gone for them
50:17
to ever like actually be family. If you
50:20
look at the way that the elves are
50:21
amongst each other, they're not they're
50:23
not there yet and they're certainly not
50:25
going to get there with the trolls, but
50:26
a recognition of their shared,
50:30
you know, we come from the same place.
50:33
Mhm.
50:34
>> You know, we we are tin. Even if we
50:38
don't like each other, even if we don't
50:40
trust each other, we are.
50:43
And that's something I feel like this
50:45
expansion is setting up, but I don't
50:47
know where it's going to end up. Um,
50:50
which is actually cool. I mean, it's
50:51
nice to not always know when where
50:53
something's going.
50:55
But yeah, I I I I don't I don't think
50:58
we've we haven't seen half of everything
51:00
yet. I don't even know if we've seen
51:02
like everything we're going to learn
51:03
from this raid.
51:04
>> No, no, not even close. Because we still
51:06
have to go to the island. We're going to
51:07
learn uncover so many other things
51:09
because like again, this is a part of
51:11
troll history that has been essentially
51:12
wiped out um for various reasons. And
51:17
so, like, we're on a an a mission of
51:20
rediscovery.
51:22
And that is going to bring with it new
51:26
story elements that are going to be like
51:30
filling in some gaps here or maybe
51:32
making new ones or raising other
51:34
questions, but they're going to move us
51:36
forward. But I think Matt's right. We
51:38
haven't we haven't learned half of it
51:39
yet and there's so much more to go and
51:41
we're only in the second raid tier of
51:45
this expansion which you know there's at
51:48
least another raid tier after this
51:51
possibly more. There's the in between
51:54
stuff that'll happen at the end of this
51:56
raid and before the next one which will
51:58
advance the story and then there's the
52:00
post uh final raid stuff that will
52:02
always happen. At minimum, we have four
52:06
more chapters that we have to go
52:08
through, if not more, that will advance
52:10
the story. And again, back to that
52:12
original thing about these threads that
52:13
you get to pull on, there's so much that
52:16
they can pull on and tie into this or
52:18
bring into this that we're going to
52:22
learn so much more. It's going to be
52:25
wild, I think.
52:28
But to get back to your final question
52:30
before the unrelated, uh, does old Mr.
52:34
Fandal's tree obsession doesn't seem
52:36
quite so foolish now, does it? He never
52:37
seemed foolish. He seemed insane.
52:40
>> Yeah.
52:42
And again,
52:43
>> and you know, for good reasons. I'm I'm
52:45
I I'm not judging him for breaking. I I
52:49
don't know how you would survive your
52:51
son's horrible death in front of you.
52:54
And then when you finally get, you know,
52:57
after you lose everything in your
53:00
society and you're essentially on the
53:02
edges of it, uh, and you're trapped and
53:05
you finally escape, you find out that
53:07
your only grandchild, the only piece
53:11
left of your dead son is dead. and his
53:15
wife, the only thing you have, you know,
53:18
is literally the only thing you had left
53:20
of your son and she's insane and burned.
53:24
And you go to her and you're like, "No,
53:26
no, no, no, no." You know, cuz that's
53:28
Fandrol. Fandrol rejects what he cannot
53:31
accept. And is that understandable?
53:35
Yeah. Absolutely. I don't think he's
53:39
foolish. I think he's insane. And it's
53:41
completely understandable to me.
53:44
Yeah. And and again, he had no idea
53:49
what was going on underground. He didn't
53:50
know about the trees. Like, not really.
53:53
He he thought they were one thing versus
53:56
what they actually were. And so, when we
53:59
look back on it, he never did it with
54:02
that intention. So, yes, it is still
54:05
insane. It is still foolish because
54:08
again, he was taking shortcuts and doing
54:11
stuff on his own. Again, his motivations
54:14
are sound as far as like the reasoning
54:16
behind it. We understand why he did it,
54:19
but it still holds true that because he
54:23
had no idea the ramifications of what he
54:25
was doing, didn't really think that far
54:27
into it, they were foolish mistakes.
54:30
what would have happened. And going back
54:32
to the the original world tree thing,
54:35
going back to the the Titans and Ammon,
54:37
the original world tree cradled all of
54:40
Azeroth in a shield of roots that worked
54:42
all the way around it. Or at least
54:44
that's the story that is told. It was a
54:46
protective shell armor for the naent
54:49
world soul. Again, grain of salt. We're
54:52
probably going to figure out more Titan
54:53
lines as we go through and that may not
54:54
be 100% accurate, but the root thing
54:58
does seem to be accurate because of what
54:59
we've learned in Harir.
55:02
Um, when you go to their zone and you
55:05
see all of these different trees and you
55:07
play a Hariner, go to the different
55:10
roots in the different areas and use the
55:12
root travel, it takes you to the various
55:14
world tree locations across the world,
55:17
meaning they all connect to this point.
55:20
It was not his intention. He didn't know
55:22
that was going to be a thing.
55:25
But what if he he planting
55:28
him planting more world trees upset that
55:32
balance? And I'm going to bring this to
55:35
a finer point. We know that according to
55:38
the Harner, the goddess left the cradle.
55:42
They don't know why. They don't know
55:46
when. They just know it happened.
55:49
What if that happened because a certain
55:52
somebody planted world trees that
55:54
destabilized the delicate balance of the
55:57
cradle?
55:59
We don't know yet. So yes, his actions
56:03
are quite foolish because he's taking
56:05
actions that could impact a global scale
56:08
of things or more because Azeroth being
56:12
so important to the universe at this
56:15
point and essentially being what we
56:18
suspect is a last line of defense
56:19
against whatever is coming to consume
56:21
the universe or in this case us.
56:25
his choice to do that without
56:27
forethought
56:29
jeopardizes that scale and [snorts]
56:31
balance. It potentially jeopardizes what
56:34
was put into motion eons earlier in the
56:37
birth of the universe
56:39
because he was mad and because nobody
56:42
was listening to him and because nobody
56:46
would understand or console his grief.
56:49
Still foolish actions, but
56:52
understandable foolish actions.
56:55
It's kind of like what I I like to say,
56:57
while hindsight is 2020, it never
56:59
absolves you of your sins. You can
57:02
understand 10 years down the road the
57:05
reason why something happened and it
57:07
doesn't excuse the fact that something
57:08
terrible happened. Fandril is right
57:11
inside of that. Fandrol could come back
57:14
from the Shadowlands, come back to
57:16
Azeroth, come back as a void touch thing
57:18
in service to Zalatath, beg for
57:21
forgiveness, and it still does not
57:23
absolve him of all of the terrible
57:25
choices he made. People love to make
57:27
this comparison to Sylvanas in, you
57:31
know, I've heard people say people are
57:33
quick to forgive Sylvanas, but they
57:34
won't forgive Fandrl. People are not
57:36
quick to forgive Sylvanas. But unlike
57:40
Vandril, Sylvanas, yeah, she messed up
57:43
pretty epically, she was trying to atone
57:45
for her sin.
57:48
Does it make what she did better or
57:49
right? No. But at least she admitted she
57:52
was wrong, which is more than Fandal
57:55
ever did. Because even at the end,
57:58
>> all he could say is, "It is your fault
58:00
my son is dead. It is your fault my
58:03
grandchild is dead. I must burn this
58:05
world. I must rid it of the Titan's
58:07
influence. I must take it to the studs
58:10
because that's the only way we can have
58:12
everything. By the way, I'm gonna go
58:13
serve an old god now.
58:17
>> Yeah. Or Ragnaros.
58:18
>> Or Ragnaros.
58:20
>> You know, Ragnaros serving Ragnaros is
58:22
like simultaneously it's just as bad.
58:26
And yet it's also worse because Ragnaros
58:28
just wants everything to burn. Straight
58:31
up. He doesn't have a plan. His plan is
58:34
burn it.
58:36
All I'm saying is if he shows up and the
58:38
next time we see Odin and he's Odin's
58:40
employee, I would not be surprised.
58:42
>> Yeah. If anything, [laughter] it's like,
58:45
you know, I if anything, I feel like
58:46
that's a punishment for Fandril, though,
58:48
quite frankly.
58:49
>> That's part of his atonement, and we're
58:50
calling it here now.
58:52
>> Working for Odin is just one of the
58:54
worst things I've ever had to do in
58:55
World War.
58:56
>> You fire one, you can turn into a cat
58:59
and a scorpion. Yes. Excellent. Get in
59:02
the Pokeball.
59:04
>> [laughter]
59:06
>> And with that, folks, I think that's
59:07
where we're going to call it. I do want
59:09
to thank you and remind you that
59:10
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1:00:02
[music]
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