The QueueJul 21, 2017 12:00 pm CT

The Queue: Tauren With Spear

Tauren just look natural holding big spears, don’t they?

One thing I love about the Wardrobe system is how I can wear the exact same mog on all my Warriors (and most of the same mogs on my Pally and DK’s, too.) My Tauren looks really cool in this set.

Okay, let’s get up to our Queue shenanigans.


Akama and Ner’zhul both need to come to Heroes, eventually, but I’m certainly hoping for Akama more just because he’s not an orc.

Re: Garrosh Hellscream being the next hero, at least that’s one we can now cross off the list now. He was always going to come to Heroes based on his overwhelming story-driving presence in World of Warcraft for so long.

am surprised he came this early after we got several male orcs already but oh well.

Also, on the bright side, we can go back to the good old days of talking crap about Garrosh. That had been missing from the Queue in recent months xD

I’ll be up front — I kind of like Garrosh. Oh, sure, he was absolutely a villain at the end of Mists of Pandaria and my Tauren had absolutely no compunctions about fighting him, but at least he was never boring, and he was refreshingly up-front about his prejudices and malevolence.

Garrosh was a complicated character who was actually kind of simple — he put Orcs first, and the other Horde races were only his allies insofar as they could be of use to Orcs or showed a kind of strength he understood and thus could respect. Ironically I think Cairne’s death earned the Tauren more respect than they otherwise would have had, but eventually even they weren’t good enough in Garrosh’s eyes, much less Trolls, Blood Elves, Forsaken or what have you.

But I really think that if Thrall had never forced the role of Warchief on Garrosh, an expansion like Legion would be perfect for Garrosh to come off more heroically. This is the kind of fight Garrosh loved — a no holds barred, no quarter given fight to the death against an enemy you can simply wade into and destroy. Garrosh never wanted to be a leader. He wanted to be the Orc the leaders called and said “Destroy that for us” and he would have been happy to be the one rampaging across the Broken Isles battling Demons for the Horde.

I get why people don’t like Garrosh. In many ways he embodied everything ugly about the Horde’s past and brought it right back up to the surface, instead of safely buried the way Thrall left it. Garrosh was a lot more like Doomhammer than Thrall ever was, going so far as to have Dark Shaman twist the land and torture the elements to secure victory. To me, that was why he was such an interesting character. Garrosh did the kind of things Doomhammer did and he wasn’t ashamed of them, which meant players (like myself — I mained Horde during Cataclysm and up to Throne of Thunder in Mists of Pandaria) had to deal with that legacy themselves.

Still, I admit, I’d have rather we got Blackthorne in Heroes.


I really hate that whole “Thrall is no longer worthy” thing. It’s like [Kill a million things] Elements are fine [Kill orc hitler] Elements hate you now Thrall wow how could you do such a [flippity flarped] thing as killing the worst mortal villain Azeroth has ever faced.

Arthas was mortal. I mean, we killed him, that’s a really big indicator of his mortality, but also, born in Lordaeron, grew up a normal Human and everything. I feel like there are quite a few mortal villains in the Warcraft setting who’d be mad you gave the top spot to Garrosh. Also, to be fair, the elements hated that guy. He tortured them so badly they couldn’t even hear it when Thrall called on them under Orgrimmar.

However, let’s look at the rules to Mak’gora.

  • Each participant is allowed one weapon.
    • A blessing of this weapon by a shaman of their choosing is permitted, but not required.
  • Body armor is forbidden.
  • Each participant must have at least one witness.
  • If both participants refuse to fight one another, they are banished from the clan

We know from watching the duel that Thrall didn’t take off his armor, but Garrosh wasn’t wearing any. Considering they didn’t strip off their armor when they fought in Orgrimmar before the coming of the Lich King, we’ll ignore that part as a triviality.

Let’s focus on ‘Each participant is allowed one weapon.’ When the fight between Thrall and Garrosh started, Thrall waded in with the Doomhammer. He chose a weapon. It wasn’t the power of the elements.

You can argue that there’s no rule specifically stating Thrall couldn’t use the Doomhammer and his power as a Shaman. But clearly, the Elements disagree with you. Furthermore, the problem here is that Thrall knows what he did. Thrall knows that he forced the elements in the battle against Garrosh — in that moment, he didn’t ask for their aid, he didn’t even demand it. He compelled it. There’s a bond of trust, of give and take between a Shaman and the spirits of the Elements, and when he was about to lose against Garrosh, Thrall broke it.

He cheated, by his own standards as much as by theirs, and he knows it. That’s why Thrall feels unworthy and why he passed the Doomhammer on. We saw in the Warcraft movie that when Gul’dan used the Fel in his Mag’gora against Durotan (admittedly an AU, but still) that the Orcs were stunned and horrified that he’d directly used magic against his opponent. Beating him to death with Fel-enhanced strength they were okay with, but draining him with the Fel they were not.  It seems fair to assume that the Elements were angry that Thrall used them against their will (especially on Draenor, a world where the elements seems much stronger — Thrall even commented on that several times) and that Thrall himself was upset that he’d resorted to the same tactics as the Dark Shaman had when he confronted Garrosh in Orgrimmar’s new basement that we’ve never seen again.

Seriously, did they just fill that in? Sorry, I know that’s off track but it’s bothered me ever since.


One problem (if you consider it such) with the story in WoW is that this is pretty much the case every expansion. If we fail, we get overrun by forces from the Dark Portal*, the Lich King converts the greatest heroes and conquers the world, Old God sha/Y’shaarj forces knock the world out of balance…

Legion IS a little bit more of an immediate and blatant threat to the existence of Azeroth, but most of the other threats don’t leave a whole lot of room for failure either beyond perhaps fighting a next level of resistance.

* I’d assert that the threat to Azeroth in Warlords was actually over pretty early on and the rest of the expansion was more a matter of invading Draenor and spanking the Iron Horde for even trying.

I don’t necessarily see it as a problem but at times I do miss the way it was back in vanilla, where there were a lot of threats and they weren’t necessarily (at least not immediately) threats to the entire world. The Dark Irons weren’t going to destroy the world any time soon and Ragnaros was mostly trying to recover his power from being summoned to Azeroth, Nefarian was certainly up to no good but he was more an eventual threat than an immediate one. One could argue that Hakkar, C’Thun and Ner’zhul were all threats that would, if not destroy the world, certainly kill a lot of its people but they all felt like they were manageable.

It’s certainly true that up to Cataclysm the threats kept ramping up. I felt like the Sunwell was a pretty big threat to Azeroth proper (and Legion shows us just how big a threat it actually was — its hard to think Azeroth back then was in any better shape for a big honking demon invasion), Arthas wanted to unleash Azeroth’s greatest heroes as an unstoppable army of death, and Deathwing’s stated goal was the destruction of the planet. Now that we know about the World Soul, it’s pretty clear he either would have destroyed or perhaps even helped convert it to being a Void Titan.

In a way, I liked that Mists dialed the threat back, and it wasn’t until the final raid of the expansion that we got anything like a whole world level threat in the Heart of Y’Shaarj. Warlords definitely juked more than I liked, and Legion has basically been a series of threats to the existence of the planet. I’m not at all sure what we’re going to see next. But by opening with the Broken Shore, Legion did let us lose, and I think that was an interesting approach — we saw that we couldn’t just brute force the Legion forces and we definitely couldn’t say we just win all the time, because we sure didn’t win there.

We lost. Bad. The leaders of the Horde and Alliance died. The head of the Silver Hand died. A lot of soldiers died, their broken ships litter the shore even now. We can’t afford to lose again, but we definitely lost the first time.


Q4tQ: Levelling Stream?

Since you’re asking, the Leveling Stream is essentially gone. We may do something like it again someday, but as I said the other day, it got kind of tedious doing all the 1 to 100 stuff over again. I’ve done that stuff a lot. We all have a lot to do during the day and it’s also a case that we want our video content to be more useful for everyone.

I definitely wouldn’t mind streaming WoW or Diablo at some point, though.


Q4tQ: Could a new expansion work if it canonically took place while another expansion was already taking place?
E.g: Expansion that takes place on Azeroth while Warlords was going on

I felt bad the last question got such a short answer. Anyway:


That’s the Queue, and…

Oh, all right, I’ll go more into detail on why I feel that way.

The Cataclysm update created some time wonkiness in that we go from Deathwing ravaging Azeroth to the Dark Portal and Outland before DW showed up, then pop up to Northrend and fight Arthas (again, before DW) and then, finally, actually catch up to the first sixty or so levels of WoW and deal with the dragon.

Players have been complaining about this since it happened. And I understand why. It’s weird to level through the post-Arthas Plaguelands and then go up and fight Arthas’ forces. Since we’re generally just blitzing through the expansions for levels, we don’t actually see them that much, but it’s still a bit strange. So doing an entire expansion on Azeroth during Warlords would be inviting players to experience an even greater temporal discontinuity for no real reason at all. Imagine if the next expansion was that. We’d defeat the Legion, come back to Azeroth, and then flash backwards to whatever was happening on Azeroth during Warlords.

It would be extremely strange and I don’t see much benefit to it.

I mean, I’m going to be playing in a D&D game set on Azeroth during that period, but it’s a one shot and I’m not playing my character from WoW.

A CoT dungeon that took place in that time period could absolutely work, but an entire expansion is, in my opinion, a trifle much.

Okay, that’s the Queue for today. I’ll see y’all next Friday. Be sure to be nice to Adam and ask him some questions about Chili or Foucault, he likes those.

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